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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, MARINE AND NATURAL RESOURCES debate -
Tuesday, 20 Jun 2006

Bagenalstown Post Office: Presentation.

I welcome Councillor Liam O'Brien, Councillor Denis Foley and Mr. John Doyle. Before I ask Councillor O'Brien to begin, I wish to advise that we will receive a short presentation followed by a question and answer session. I request that all mobile telephones are switched off.

I draw everybody's attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. The committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Further, under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. All questions will be directed and answered through the Chair. I call on Councillor O'Brien to begin.

Mr. Liam O’Brien

I thank the Chairman for receiving our delegation and the Oireachtas Members from Carlow-Kilkenny who made representations on our behalf so that we could appear before the committee. I also thank the spokespersons from the Labour Party and Fine Gael for their assistance prior to our arrival.

I will briefly outline our campaign thus far to retain the status of Muine Bheag, Bagenalstown branch post office as the main post office. We established a committee in October 2005 to campaign for the retention of the status of Muine Bheag branch post office. This was on foot of a letter I received from the chief executive of An Post, Mr. Donal Curtin, which confirmed its intention to downgrade Bagenalstown post office. We then set about gathering signatures for a petition. We gathered 3,200 signatures by standing outside the post office in Bagenalstown for two days and from a door to door campaign. We also received expressions of support from the business community. There was practically universal support for our campaign to retain the status of Muine Bheag branch post office.

In December, we staged a protest outside the Dáil which coincided with a meeting with officials from the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources at which we outlined our concerns vis-à-vis the post office in Bagenalstown. In April, we met the area manager, east, of An Post, Michael O’Sullivan. At that meeting, we outlined our arguments for the retention of the status of Muine Bheag branch post office. We outlined our concern that any diminution of status would result in a diminution of service. Mr. O’Sullivan sought to allay our fears and assure us that there would be no diminution of service with the diminution of status. I would have to contest that view, however, by evidencing and instancing the fact that school teachers who are superintending for the junior and leaving certificate examinations in Bagenalstown can go to the post office and drop off their examination papers. Next year, if Bagenalstown post office is downgraded, that will not be possible. That is a diminution of service.

If there is a downgrading, there is a strong likelihood that there will be a relocation. If this post office were to be relocated in a corner of a supermarket or down a side street, that is, as we see it, a de facto diminution of service. Such a development would impact on the dignity and privacy of elderly welfare recipients who use the post office to collect their weekly benefits. Hence, we cannot accept these assurances.

Bagenalstown is a very busy post office, which is evidenced by the fact that there are constant queues there every day. When one tries to enter the post office to avail of its many services, one often cannot get in the door for the queues of people inside.

As regards the statistics, some 875 customers are paid by personalised payable orders, 465 are paid by AIT, and 647 customers receive child benefit payments in the post office every month. It is extensively used by the business community, the general public and foreign workers. Bagenalstown is experiencing an increase in population, which is predicted to double from 3,000 to 6,000 in the coming years. The post office also serves surrounding villages and the rural population. There are current and imminent housing developments. A total of 744 housing units are being built or are due to commence in the near future. This is from where the population growth is coming.

On the economic front, a relatively new business park is attracting large investment, which is great news for the town. It will result in increased business for Bagenalstown branch post office. Bagenalstown has been recognised as a growth centre in the national spatial strategy. Recently, an application was made for a €100 million business retail development on the outskirts of the town. This will result in a large volume of business for the local post office. In addition, there has been a rejuvenation of the town centre. One wonders whether An Post has listened to our concerns or taken account of those facts relating to population growth and business expansion in Bagenalstown, which will result in extra business for the post office.

Economic development for Bagenalstown must be good for An Post's branch post office there. The location of the post office is another centrally important issue for our committee. At present, it is at the centre of economic activity in the street. It is a perfect central location and user-friendly. People can walk to the location if they do not have cars. Parking is available, although it is becoming increasingly difficult to park one's car. That is, however, a separate issue.

The post office is one of the town's historic buildings and part of our architectural heritage. In 1915, the post office developed a contract with the owners to lease the building for 95 years. The lease has been running for 91 years and it runs out in four years' time. It is a listed building, so what will An Post do with it if the company relocates to another premises?

We have repeatedly asked An Post for figures concerning the level of trade at Bagenalstown post office but we have been constantly refused that information. We have tried to obtain it through the Freedom of Information Act but have been refused. We have asked Mr. O'Sullivan, area manager — east, directly but he has refused to supply it. Surely the people of Bagenalstown have a right to know what is the level of trade at their local post office. People are incredulous that their post office can close. It is perceived as being a very busy place and they cannot understand why it is being downgraded.

The licence to operate a sub-post office was advertised recently. The deadline expired on 12 June last. We accept with regret that An Post will carry through with its intention to convert Muine Bheag branch post office to a sub-post office. We wish to see An Post diverting a small portion of last year's trading profits — €16 million last year, as we were told today, and €6.5 million for the previous year — into the renovation of its premises in Bagenalstown. The successful applicant for the new service should operate it from the same address. We feel that An Post has a public duty to maintain the service to a high standard in a central location. This is evidenced by the support the campaign has received. We do not want to see An Post buying out the freehold of the building in four years' time and selling it on for a huge profit while Bagenalstown is left with an inferior postal service and long-term uncertainty.

There have been developments in other post offices throughout the county. The service in Ballon was recently downgraded to a postal agency. Business interests in the area are now obliged to travel to another town, miles away, to post their parcels. This is a discouragement for any new business setting up in that small town. If An Post is serious about rural Ireland and decentralisation, it should be supporting these services instead of allowing them to be downgraded.

Tullow post office been subjected to four robberies in recent times so the people running it have decided to get out of the business. That is also being advertised to be run as a sub-post office by other people. The postal service in Tullow now faces uncertainty. We are afraid that, in the future, Bagenalstown will also experience the same level of uncertainty and we are not prepared to accept it.

We will take questions now. I wish to acknowledge the representations made to me personally, as Chairman of the committee, by my colleagues, Deputies McGuinness, Nolan and Aylward, in addition to a number of Fianna Fáil councillors in the Carlow area. Mr. O'Brien can assume that the reason he is making his presentation relates to those strong representations, as well as those made by others, including Senator John Paul Phelan.

Before calling colleagues, I wish to ask a few questions. Has Mr. O'Brien met An Post's senior management?

Mr. O’Brien

The most senior manager we met with was Mr. Michael O'Sullivan, area manager — east.

Was that the senior manager with whom Mr. O'Brien met?

Mr. O’Brien

Yes.

Is the office operated directly by An Post?

Mr. O’Brien

Yes.

It is manned by An Post staff.

Mr. O’Brien

Yes.

With 100% postal services.

Mr. O’Brien

Yes.

Am I correct in assuming that An Post is proposing that a full postmaster would be appointed to run the full services?

Mr. O’Brien

Yes, that is what it is proposing.

Let us be clear. An Post is not suggesting that it would appoint an agent to operate the post office and offer 70%, 80% or 85% of the services. It will be a full postmaster service.

Mr. O’Brien

Yes. As already stated, however, I contest the view that the level of service currently available would be on offer.

The reason I am asking is because of the public record. We have spent four years examining different post offices and we can see different things happening and emerging throughout the country. Is Mr. O'Brien suggesting that a postmaster who is appointed by An Post would not provide a full service? There are many postmasters in this country and the vast majority of them are running post offices. They are providing a 100% service. I understand that there are over 1,300 postmasters who are providing 100% of the postal services because they operate on contract and receive a fee for running the postal services. Is that not correct? They provide 100% of the services.

Mr. O’Brien

I have outlined an instance whereby, next year, if Bagenalstown is not a main post office, teachers will not be able to drop in their junior and leaving certificate examination papers there.

It is important for members to understand the position. Our proceedings are a matter of record in the Official Report. We do not, therefore, want to say things that are factually incorrect because I will be obliged to bring back the representatives of An Post to ask them to answer the points raised. Is Mr. O'Brien's understanding the same as mine, namely, that a full postal service — 100% of the postal services that are provided by 1,300 other postmasters throughout the country — will be provided at Bagenalstown?

Mr. O’Brien

That is the contention of An Post.

I want to be clear that an agency is not involved. I am, as the councillor would be, concerned about the agency. I call Deputy McGuinness.

I welcome the delegation. To correct the original statement made by Councillor O'Brien, the offer of support for the appearance of the delegation before the committee came from all parties and me.

With regard to the service, the argument put forward by Councillor O'Brien is to be supported, particularly with regard to the development of Bagenalstown. The post office serves a broad and growing community and also a broad and rapidly expanding business community that is experiencing significant investment. It is important to state that Councillor O'Brien's statement in this regard is quite true.

In the earlier submission from An Post, it was made clear that there would be an expansion, not a reduction, in the services being delivered at Bagenalstown. Councillor O'Brien referred to examination papers being dropped into the post office before being sent away. I would like An Post to clarify the position in this regard as soon as possible because to do so would help to deal with the arguments and perceptions on the ground. My clear understanding — Councillor O'Brien might comment on this — is that the services will not be affected in the future.

The next question raised concerned the post office building and the applicants who have expressed an interest in taking up the service. If the service is located in another building, there should be an almost seamless continuation of the current service and the facilities available to the general public should be the same as those offered at present. That is the commitment we need to hear from An Post, which needs to understand this issue in light of the demands not only of Councillor O'Brien's group but also of the broader community in Bagenalstown. I hope the expressions of interest and how applicants are assessed and appointed will be carefully considered.

These are the only two issues that arise. As for the postmasters and the type of service being delivered, these matters were made clear to us in the earlier submission by An Post and will be the subject of decisions to be made by company. The service will not be affected and, therefore, the status will not be affected. What is of concern to us is the type of building that will finally emerge from this process and whether it will ensure the current service, including the aspect raised by Councillor O'Brien, is continued. That is as much as can be said on the points Councillor O'Brien put forward for consideration. I hope the committee will seek this information from An Post as soon as possible.

I welcome the delegation. I am pleased the Chairman put on record that the Fianna Fáil and Government Members of the Oireachtas, and local public representatives, made persistent representations to the Chairman with a view to having the committee meet the delegation. I am glad the delegation availed of the opportunity to attend.

From an early stage, I was very supportive of the campaign to ensure that the existing status of the post office in Muine Bheag-Bagenalstown would be retained. However, we were unsuccessful in that. It is fortunate that, just prior to this meeting, the committee had discussions with representatives of An Post, during which it was clearly stated by the chief executive and his senior management that far from foreseeing a diminution of the services provided to the people of Bagenalstown and surrounding areas, it is his view and that of senior management that the services would be enhanced. Moreover, it is their view that where there has been such a changeover in status elsewhere, services were not diluted in any way. The chief executive stated that such a changeover sometimes results in a more vibrant, enthusiastic and commercial operation. I am pleased he said that.

A number of applicants will hopefully apply to run the new post office in Muine Bheag and the premises involved will be to a standard and at a location that will meet the needs of the public in Bagenalstown. I hold a clinic in Bagenalstown every Monday evening at which, in recent months, a number of individuals have expressed their concerns to me in this regard. Their key concerns centre on the range of services provided by the staff in the post office, who, along with former staff, I commend, for the courteous way they have done business with the community in recent years. After speaking with management in An Post, I was able to confirm to concerned members of the public that the full range of services will continue to be provided.

Having listened to the previous debate, is Councillor O'Brien satisfied that the Minister has no input into the day-to-day running of An Post, that he is responsible only for policy decisions and that, as such, he has no role in the decision concerning a change in status at Muine Bheag or any aspect of the operational duties of An Post with regard to the post office there?

We will bank the questions. Is Councillor O'Brien standing in the next election?

Mr. O’Brien

Not this time around.

I think I am standing this time around but, unlike Deputy Nolan, I do not yet hold clinics in Bagenalstown. I welcome the group and thank its members for their presentation. Unlike the previous two speakers, I am not convinced by some of the promises made by An Post regarding the future services to be provided in the post office at Bagenalstown. Councillor O'Brien referred to examination papers. Despite having been a teacher, it is not an issue I considered. However, security issues certainly arise in that regard and they must be addressed.

The other issue on which I wish to focus is that of the physical location of the post office. The position of the post office in Bagenalstown is quite prominent and everybody knows where it is located. If a person obtains a franchise to run the post office in the corner of a supermarket or some other building, although one might congratulate the individual concerned, it will result in an automatic downgrading of the position and status of the post office. That is a fair point, with which I agree.

It has been made clear that Bagenalstown is developing at a rapid rate. The catchment area contains far more people than the 3,000 to 4,000 who live in the town because it includes most of south Carlow and parts of east Kilkenny, which together have a population of 12,000 to 15,000. When the An Post management met the committee earlier, I made the point that it is an indictment of the future direction of the organisation if it cannot provide a full, traditional post office facility in Bagenalstown. If we could provide that facility 91 years ago, when the lease was taken out in 1915, we should be able to provide it now.

I fully support the efforts of and congratulate those in Bagenalstown who are involved in trying to highlight this issue and ensure that the service continues to be provided in the town.

For the record, how many An Post staff work in this post office?

Mr. O’Brien

Four, excluding the postmen.

Are they retiring, have they been made redundant or are they being offered alternative employment?

Mr. O’Brien

I understand that as part of the agreement with the unions they will be offered alternative employment.

What is the timeframe for the proposed changeover?

Mr. O’Brien

The deadline for applications to take on the franchise of a sub-post office expired on 12 June.

Is there an indication of how many people will be employed under a new postmaster?

Mr. O’Brien

Mr. O'Sullivan of An Post seems to think two people could do the job.

Can Councillor O'Brien address Deputy Nolan's question?

Mr. O’Brien

As regards the Minister's role in this, he has dictated policy and handed responsibility on this matter to An Post. This is an abdication of responsibility. He could set out a policy whereby An Post would establish criteria for the conversion or downgrading of post offices and perhaps, where a town is growing, allow that branch to remain operational until it is deemed that an increase in business has not materialised. In such circumstances, the decision to downgrade would stand. Councillor Foley might wish to comment on this issue.

Mr. Denis Foley

I am delighted to be here today and thank Deputies Nolan and McGuinness and Senator Phelan for this opportunity. The 40 wise men that Mr. Curtin said plan the business of An Post are making an unwise decision and perhaps a new team should be assembled.

I think Mr. Foley is referring to that analogy in the wrong context. Mr. Curtin was referring to the new financial model An Post is introducing with its partners in Fortis.

Mr. Foley

He said there are 40 wise men planning the business of An Post.

No, he did not. I must be careful as Chairman of this committee that what is said is correct and to be fair to both sides. I must advise Councillor Foley that the statement I have just made is, to my knowledge, correct and is my understanding of what Mr. Curtin said earlier.

Mr. Foley

I accept the Chairman's decision. Regarding An Post in Bagenalstown, the people are concerned that privacy and confidentiality will be affected if the post office relocates to a supermarket or any other multipurpose building. Bagenalstown, officially known as Muine Bheag, is a growing town with a population of over 3,000, which will be over 6,000 by 2010. It is growing both commercially and as a commuter town because it has a rail service and is only 60 km from Dublin. The post office opened in Muine Bheag in 1926 just after the country won independence and people are reluctant to lose something that has been there for over 80 years. It is a listed building in a prime location. An Post claims it is regrading the post office, but we call it downgrading. It asserts that the sub-post office could be a postal agent. By losing the present structure the services will not be the same.

Mr. John Doyle

I think An Post is making a bad decision on this issue. It is offering a new postmaster €95,000 per annum to run a full service in Bagenalstown and any business person knows that this cannot happen. This amount is supposed to cover staff, rent, maintenance and everything that goes with running any business. It is not possible to maintain current levels of service with this meagre sum.

An Post did not offer the current post office building for someone to take over. The building was part of a contract made in 1915 and the terms could be made very favourable to a new tenant. An Post has not entertained this notion and it seems its goal is to buy out the property and sell it for a massive profit.

I want to inform Councillor O'Brien that the Oireachtas enacted the legislation that set up An Post as a commercial body, not the Minister. I ask Mr. Derek Kickham, commercial director of An Post, to take on board what has been said about the difficulties regarding Bagenalstown post office. Perhaps he will undertake to engage directly with these witnesses to explain and outline the proposals in this area. I do not wish to revisit this issue as a committee. We can only use the moral authority of the Oireachtas in these matters. Mr. Kickham has been kind enough to engage with other groups that have appeared before this committee and I ask him to do so again. Perhaps he could make arrangements for such an engagement when this meeting adjourns.

Mr. Kickham

I am quite happy to do so, as are my colleagues, John Daly, head of retail and Barney Whelan, head of business development and corporate affairs. It is in our interests to see that such matters are dealt with in the most effective and efficient way possible.

I will not go into detail because time does not permit it.

Mr. O’Brien

At the outset I thanked the Members of Oireachtas for allowing us make representations before this committee.

I will not allow Councillor O'Brien to engage with representatives from An Post now because due notice has not been given.

Mr. O’Brien

There is an important point to be made regarding the post office building. Will An Post divert some of its massive profits into what is a crucial issue to the people of Bagenalstown affecting part of our architectural heritage?

Mr. Kickham is a senior official and has undertaken on the public record in the Houses of the Oireachtas to engage with Councillor O'Brien on this matter. He knows I do not want to see him back here for another 12 months. The same goes for Councillor O'Brien because he has his business to do and we have ours. I have no doubt that Mr. Kickham will engage with Councillor O'Brien as soon as this meeting adjourns.

Questions were asked on the quality of the bill, the extent of the service, exam papers and so on, to which we have not received answers. Will Mr. Kickham undertake to give us a briefing?

As the Deputy knows, I like to have Oireachtas Members involved in negotiations and discussions. I am sorry that this has not happened on this occasion. Of course the Oireachtas Members will be involved in the consultation process and will hopefully receive the answers to which the Deputy alludes.

There is a fantastic post office Bagenalstown which I will visit if I am ever promoted.

I have no doubt the Chairman will be promoted.

I inform the members of the select committee that we are scheduled to consider the Energy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2006 at 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 28 June.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.59 p.m. sine die.

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