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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, NATURAL RESOURCES AND AGRICULTURE debate -
Tuesday, 20 Mar 2012

Norwegian Gas and Oil Exploration: Discussion

The purpose of today's meeting is to hear a presentation by the assistant director of the Ministry for Oil and Energy in Norway. I welcome H.E. Mr. Roald Naess, ambassador of Norway, and Ms Mette Agerup, assistant director of the Ministry for Petroleum and Energy, Norway. The joint committee appreciates Ms Agerup travelling to Ireland to meet with it and thanks the ambassador for his assistance in facilitating this meeting. When we met with him three or four weeks ago, he was more than happy to share with us the experience and expertise built up in this area in Norway over a number of years. Members are anxious to hear first hand about the magic formula. It is acknowledged internationally that Norway has built up a level of expertise and is a model of best practice in this area.

This committee was formed last summer and is, as part of its work, undertaking research on how best we can capitalise on the potential of as yet undiscovered gas and oil, as has been done in Norway. It appears a viable find may have been made off the south-west coast of Cork a week ago. As such, this meeting is timely.

Before I invite the witnesses to make their presentations I must inform them that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against either a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I now invite the ambassador, Mr. Naess, to make some opening comments if he wishes to do so. I express the appreciation of the committee for his assistance in organising today's meeting.

H.E. Mr. Roald Naess

I thank the Chairman. We are delighted to be here to present information on our experience in oil and gas activity in Norway over the past 40 years. It is a tall order to present information on 40 years in such a short time but I am sure my colleague will do her utmost.

Our oil and gas adventure was founded on a basic value - I think it is similar to Ireland - which is that oil and gas resources belong to the Norwegian people and not to others including oil companies. Over the years it has been the duty of successive Norwegian governments and the authorities to ensure the exploration and production of oil and gas resources are to the benefit of the people of Norway. To do this we have developed a model, to which reference has been made, which has proven to be good for our country. It has also been rather predictable and good for the oil companies; at least they have stayed in Norway for many years which I take as proof that it has been a good model.

I am glad Ms Mette Agerup was willing to travel to Dublin because she is the ministry expert. I will leave it to her to inform the committee about our experience.

Ms Mette Agerup

I thank the committee for inviting me. I have prepared slides based on the questions submitted through the ambassador several weeks ago. Will committee members ask questions as I make my presentation?

We will hear the presentation first and we will have a question and answer session afterwards.

Ms Mette Agerup

Norway began its petroleum era in 1965. Prior to this we had no experience in oil and gas and our authorities stated with great decisiveness that there was no possibility of discovering oil and gas in Norway. However, in 1962 Phillips Petroleum came to Norway and offered $1 million for the exclusive right to all oil and gas resources on the Norwegian continental shelf for the next 40 years. Luckily some wise people in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs did not agree. We began to wonder whether there was something there and in 1963 the country claimed property rights over our oil and gas resources. As Norway is comprised of granite it has no oil onshore, but the continental shelf is different.

We established a basic law, only a few paragraphs long, allowing the government to permit oil companies to carry out oil and gas activities. As we had no domestic expertise we invited in foreign companies and decided we would do all we could to create our own oil and gas expertise in Norway. We also set out simple basic aims for the oil and gas sector in 1965 which remain the same today. Simply put, we wanted the oil companies to help us maximise the value creation from our activities; we wanted to be at the forefront environmentally and with regard to safety; and after we built up our expertise we wanted our industry to be international.

We were not a significant petroleum producer in 1965 but it has been developed. I will not go into detail on this, but after 40 years of production oil and gas are very important to the Norwegian economy and today we are the world's second largest gas exporter and the seventh largest oil exporter. In 1965 it was thought that Norway had perhaps 2% of the total oil and gas resources in the world. We are a small country and we do not use much oil and gas ourselves; therefore, we export almost all of the gas and oil we produce. This has been very advantageous to the Norwegian economy. When I studied law a long time ago I did my thesis on oil and gas law, and the policy principle then was that Norway should not become dependent on oil and gas revenue. However, we have become dependent on it.

Our key to success is good resource management. The ministry in which I work has been tasked by law to ensure oil and gas resources on our continental shelf are managed to benefit society as a whole. This has been the red thread in our activities and in the actions of our authorities since 1965. The international oil companies contribute with capital, competence and the most modern technology, and in our experience this is important. We decided to ensure Norway would be in control of all phases of the activities including dealing with seismic data, drilling expression wells, developing oil and gas fields, shutting down fields and removing platforms and installations. Our law has been structured so that each important activity is subject to approval or consent by the authorities, in most cases the Minister of Petroleum and Energy. This has been the case since the beginning and is key to our success story.

We have maintained the same system for 40 years without making many changes. We have also had political consensus throughout the past 40 years on petroleum policy in Norway. We try to ensure competition between the oil companies when we award permits for oil and gas resources. We have tried to create a fiscal regime that ensures for the state the biggest share of the revenue while leaving enough to attract companies to remain. This is our recipe, so to speak.

As I have said, we established our petroleum policy at a very early stage. The most important tools in implementing such a policy are the petroleum legislation, which should reflect the policy principles, good resource management, which I have mentioned, and the award system, whereby oil companies are given oil and gas exploration and production rights. Norway has a petroleum Act, a set of regulations and some technical regulations. Important regulations are laid down by royal decree of the King in council. The King of Norway meets the Norwegian Government every Friday. We were asked how we developed our petroleum legislation. It is not as complicated as it seems. We introduced a very simple law in 1963 and a set of royal decrees in 1972. Since then, we have basically kept the system that was put in place at that time. The system was developed into a law in 1985. That law was substituted with another law in 1996. As Norway is part of the European Economic Area, it has to implement directives in its legislation, just as Ireland has to do.

We were also asked how we have organised our state administration to take care of our oil and gas activities. The Parliament has the top role in that regard, just as it does in Ireland. It is followed by the Government. The Ministry of Petroleum and Energy of Norway is in charge of giving rights to oil companies to explore for and produce oil and gas. The Ministry has a subordinate directorate, which is known as the petroleum directorate, and also has technical and geological branches. The Ministry of Labour and Social Inclusion is in charge of health and safety. The Ministry of the Environment is also important. As these activities take place at sea, the Ministry of Fisheries and Coastal Affairs always has an important role. A basic principle of our oil and gas activities has always been to ensure there is a good coexistence between fisheries, shipping, tourism and other uses of the sea. The Ministry of Finance is also very important. I can come back to the companies that are mentioned on the slide, one of which is Statoil.

I would like to speak about our responsibilities with regard to environmental issues. Norway is subject to the same environmental directives as Ireland. We have to carry out environmental impact assessments before areas of the continental shelf can be opened to petroleum activities. We do that in a step-by-step manner in order to ensure that not too many areas which are too large are given over to this use at the same time. We want to ensure the oil companies are doing geological mapping. That is the only way we can know whether we have oil and gas. When the Ministry of Petroleum and Energy carries out impact assessments on various areas, they are presented to the Parliament, which decides whether the areas in question should be opened for petroleum activities. Not all areas in Norway have been opened. Norway is responsible for a huge continental shelf which is seven times the size of the country itself. Just a few parts of it have been opened.

When we award production licences, we engage in public consultation. When we develop oil and gas fields, build pipelines or decommission fields, we provide for impact assessments to be carried out by the oil companies. That has resulted in the Government, over time, acquiring a very good knowledge of Norway's continental shelf, ocean areas, fish currents, coral reefs, environmental treasures, etc. It is a very good system. We decided from the first day to apply a licensing system. The Norwegian Government never signs agreements with oil companies because an agreement makes one bound by a contract. All experience in this sector shows that developments happen as time goes by. In such circumstances, one can regret entering into a contract with an oil company. It cannot be changed unless the company consents to such a change. We have never done that.

We call the concessions we award to oil companies production licences. We award them in dedicated licensing rounds. As a result, companies do not come to us - we come to them. We invite the oil companies to apply for production licences at regular intervals. This happens every second year, on average. My Ministry is responsible for conducting these licensing rounds. The final decision on licensing is taken by the King of Norway in council. The King has been given the authority by the Parliament to take the final decision. We do not go to the Parliament with these awards. We normally award these production licences to groups of companies because we have seen, in practice, that a single company is not as good at controlling its own costs and use of money as a group of companies. Most often, a single company does not have the best geological ideas. We apply what we call "the principle of plurality", which means that when more companies operate in a group, they are more creative when it comes to geology and they are able to share the costs and the responsibilities. In our experience, this is an important issue. We no longer award production licences to single companies. They have to work with other companies.

Each production licence gives the group of oil companies an exclusive right to explore for and produce anything it might find. In our experience, it is important to give such groups the security to spend money on exploration in the knowledge that they will have a right to produce whatever they find and deem profitable. We give them licences to explore and produce. In Norway, the licensees become the owners of proportionate shares of the oil and gas they produce. They are free to sell and market that oil and gas to whomever they like. Of course we have provisions in our law requiring that oil and gas be delivered to Norway in specific cases such as war or some other crisis. Those provisions have never been used. The main rule is that the companies are free to sell their oil and gas as they see fit. The Ministry of Petroleum and Energy decides the composition of these licence groups as part of what we call a discretionary system. We decide what company will be the operator. As that company will be doing the day-to-day activity, it has to be very competent. We do not use signature bonuses and never did. We want the companies to use their money for geological mapping. We oblige the companies to accept what we call a work obligation, as a condition for being awarded the production licence, following which the Ministry for Petroleum and Energy decides the work obligation, which the companies have to accept. They always accept it.

Another condition for the award of the production licence is that companies form a joint venture for the licence area in question. That joint venture is not a company that has been stipulated in our companies Act but the companies share the costs and the responsibilities in the area covered by the production licence.

A member asked if Statoil is treated in line with the other oil companies. The answer to that question is "yes", but it was not like that from the beginning. Statoil was established as soon as we knew there were profitable volumes of oil and gas in Norway. It was established in 1972 as a 100% State owned oil company and had a few privileges to build the company. One privilege was that the international companies had to carry Statoil in the exploration phase. That means that as Statoil had 50% in all joint ventures, the cost of exploration for that 50% had to be covered in proportionate shares by the other licensees. That is a fairly common procedure. In that way we built Statoil to the extent that today it is the largest company in Scandinavia. These privileges were maintained for about 20 years but at the beginning of the 1990s they were done away with. Since then Statoil has been treated like any other oil company in Norway. It has to apply for production licences and it does not get the licence if it is not considered to be the best company. We treat Statoil in the same way as any other oil company. We privatised Statoil in 2001 and sold off 20% of the company. It was the largest oil and gas listing in the world in 2001. Today we own 67% of Statoil.

A member also asked about refineries. We do not have many refineries in Norway, but we have two. We are a small country and we are a raw material exporter. We have two refineries, one of which is being redeveloped. The plan is to have that refinery fitted with carbon capture and storage. The investment decision will be taken in 2016. We are working on finding suitable reservoirs on the continental shelf for storage of CO2.

Another question was how we consult the public in regard to our activities. We consult the public all the time. We were lucky because we started in 1965 at a time when communications were not the same as they are today and all the work happens at sea - therefore, one cannot see it. Over time other authorities have become very interested in this activity and are controlling and monitoring what we do all the time. Before opening new areas on the Continental Shelf, impact assessments are carried out by the Ministry for Petroleum and Energy and there is three months public consultation. When the Parliament is presented with the impact assessments we have to inform the Parliament of the comments received and how we have handled them. This is part of the opening process and part of the decision taken by Parliament.

Before inviting oil companies to apply for award of new production licences, we put the blocks out for public consultation for a period of six weeks. If the Ministry of Fisheries and Coastal Affairs or the Ministry of the Environment have grave objections those areas will be taken off the list.

Before oil companies are allowed to develop oil and gas fields they must present a plan to the ministry for approval. Part of that plan is the impact assessment which is also submitted for public consultation for three months. The same applies if the oil companies need to build pipelines for transportation of gas. We have 8,000 km of sub-sea pipelines in Norway for transportation of gas to England, Germany, Belgium and France. In that case the oil companies are required to carry out impact assessments and submit them for three months' public consultation.

Before any field is shut down an impact assessment must be carried out and submitted for six weeks' public consultation. We have regular public consultations several times a year where many comments are made.

I was asked if there was any good advice for the committee. If one awards many licences or rights to companies in neighbouring areas a good piece of advice would be to apply the principle of unitisation. That means that if companies discover an oil and gas field extending across the border of two licences they should not be allowed to start producing oil and gas from each end of that field. They must make a joint group in order that the field can be exploited as one unit. That is an example of good resource management because the Government will be able to control how that resource is produced in the best manner possible. In our experience that is very important.

I took part in the negotiations on the limitation agreement with the Russians for 13 years and in writing the oil and gas provisions of that treaty and the unitisation principle has also been included. We do not allow any development to take place before a unitisation agreement has been entered into between the groups of companies on each side of the field. We force the companies to enter into the agreement before being allowed to develop.

An extremely important piece of advice is to ensure that copies of all data the oil companies gather, particularly seismic data which are extremely expensive to gather, must be submitted to the State free of charge. Many countries forget to make such a requirement. The companies will often say, "sorry, this is my property, you will not have it". Then the country will not know its own geology and has to ask the oil company. That is extremely important. We have used this principle for 40 years. Of course we have the best knowledge of our own geology and that is a big advantage today when we negotiate with oil companies.

The prohibition on the laying of gas pipes is another very good piece of advice. We did not start producing gas in Norway until 1988 because of a prohibition and there was no market for it. We are offshore but there was no pipeline to transport the gas. We said to the companies that unless they create the market they would not be allowed to produce gas. Since 1988, as I said, 8,000 km of gas pipelines have been built and we did not burn it. That would have been like burning money.

With regard to the last question, we control production volumes at all times through annual permits for producing oil and gas. We have approved plans for the development of oil and gas fields but then the oil companies, in the plans, can propose to produce a certain type and amount for so many years yet we still require them to apply for a production permit every year. It ensures that the cream of our resources is not skimmed off. The oil companies will always try to earn money quickly while the state wants to ensure that as much revenue as possible is collected from the production of its resource. The oil companies are simply the helpers but the oil and gas resources are ours. They must submit applications every year for permits.

In our experience oil companies say that they will produce X volume from a particular field but often when they start producing the field is much larger and they can produce three or four times the volume. Therefore, it is important to have this kind of system whereby the State controls the volumes that the companies are allowed to take out every year.

Lastly, companies are allowed to assign their shares in production licences but they are subject to the consent of the Minister for Petroleum and Energy. The measure enables us to know who is the licensee and whether they are qualified at all times.

I thank Ms Agerup for her comprehensive reply. The process seems so simple. I propose to call members and bank their questions. I ask members to be aware that if a question is asked already, they should not ask it again if possible. I call Deputy Ó Cuív first, to be followed by Deputy Martin Ferris and then whoever else has indicated afterwards.

I thank the delegation for its comprehensive presentation here today. I will ask a few questions to get more information. I understand that Statoil was important in creating a Norwegian expertise in oil exploration and production. Can the delegation give me an idea of how much of the current production level is by Statoil and how much is by the international companies, and identify the large international companies?

My second question is on royalties and taxes which are often referred to here. People look at Norway and say it has a much higher tax regime than we have. Please outline what those terms are. Are they always the same? Does every field have the same tax and royalty take for the state? Does it depend on the location of the field, the depth of the water or the difficulty in locating the oil and gas? Is it always the same?

We are always being told that Norway found a large amount of oil and gas in the Ekofisk field. Has Norway carried out an exploration in very deep waters similar to the west coast of Ireland? We have been told that it is difficult to find, and expensive to extract, oil and gas in such waters and the chance of finding either would be considerably less than in the middle of a known field. Are special terms given to people who go to frontier fields?

I am impressed with Norway's public consultation process which has been a large issue here. The following is more of a comment than a question. Norway seems to have public consultation at every stage of the process, which is something we could learn from.

Earlier it was mentioned that Norway has two oil refineries on land. Does Norway have any gas terminals on land? I have another question on oil refineries. Was there local concern about environmental damage or the possibility of major accidents? How were those concerns handled?

Norway has placed a great emphasis on geological mapping by the companies. It seems to be a key component of Norway's policy for locating oil and gas in the future.

What percentage of the workforce and expertise in the Norwegian oil industry is Norwegian? Are Norwegian universities involved in cutting edge technology and research? How many of the workers in the industry offshore are Norwegian? How many of them come from elsewhere? How much employment and Norwegian research was created by the oil industry?

The necessity for companies to apply for a production permit every year ensures that if a lot of oil and gas is found, rather than using it all up fast it would be stretched out over as long a period as the Norwegian Government decided. The benefit to the Norwegian people would be spread rather than allowing the pace of exploitation be decided by the companies. Can the delegation confirm that is the reason for a one year production permit?

I call Deputy Martin Ferris before returning to Ms Agerup for her response.

I thank the delegation for its presentation. I admire Norway's determination to ensure that its resources benefited its people primarily. The strategy and approach, from the initial stages where one made an offer to the end result, has been fantastic and I commend Norway on it.

Earlier it was said that copies of all data and material must be submitted to the Norwegian Government to ensure that the state has overall knowledge of its own geology. How is it verified with the oil companies? I know Statoil and state companies are okay. How can Norway be certain that it receives the correct geological data and material from multinational companies drilling in Norwegian waters? Is there a state geologist supervising the rigs that are drilling?

When Norway was developing the industry in the beginning did it encounter resistance from the multinational companies to the state's participation and overall tax and royalties?

The Corrib gas field is located off the Mayo coast. Can the delegation give me the potential earnings expected from Statoil's involvement?

I have a question on the terms for the workforce comprising those who work on the oil rigs and onshore. How do their pension fund entitlements, offshore leave, etc., compare with other countries? I once worked on the oil rigs and worked for two weeks on and two weeks off. One was paid while one was off but this arrangement has been done away with since the deunionisation of the oil rigs in Irish waters.

How does Ms Agerup quantify the difference the exploration sector has made to Norway? She stated the sector's share of GDP is 22%.

On drilling and the sharing of reports, Ms Agerup said that if there is a discovery overlapping two sectors, the companies concerned must share information and work together. If a state company such as Statoil has a sector next to that of a private company, how is a balance struck, given that 67% of Statoil is owned by the people of Norway?

Perhaps Ms Agerup would like to answer those questions.

Ms Mette Agerup

Yes, I will try. On the first question, Statoil has a big share of activities, for historical reasons. When we established Statoil, our policy was that it would have a 50% share in all production licences awarded after 1972. That was a given. That policy was retained until 1991. Between those two years, most of the big oil fields were discovered. Statoil has a 50% share in all of them.

In 1984, Statoil was becoming a big company and comprised a big economy of itself. Considering that Norway's economy is small, the Parliament decided Statoil would quickly become a state within a state, which was not acceptable. The Parliament, therefore, decided in 1984 to divide Statoil's 50% share into two shares. Statoil was allowed to keep one as an oil company and the other share was to be owned directly by the Norwegian state. That share is not associated with the company; it is simply a stream of money going in and out of the state coffers. It is called the state direct financial interest, SDFI. Statoil was tasked with managing that share on behalf of the Norwegian state after it was split in two.

Statoil still has a big share in the big oilfields. The Norwegian state also has a very big share in the oilfields because of the split. When we privatised Statoil in 2001, we decided it should continue to market the oil and gas associated with the state share together with its own oil and gas. The result is that the company is marketing approximately 70% of all oil and gas from the Norwegian continental shelf. That makes it the biggest player in the global oil market today.

The tax system in Norway is the same wherever one is and whatever one does. We do not apply a ring-fencing system in Norway. As I stated, companies must form a joint venture when they are awarded a production licence but they still pay all costs associated with their activities. All costs from all activities, including exploration, geological mapping, operation, development, etc., are put into one bucket and deducted against the companies' gross profits. We tax the net profits at a rate of 78%. The normal company tax in Norway is 28% but we apply what we call the natural resource rent. The resources belong to the Norwegian state and we should have as much of the revenue from letting the oil companies produce the resource as possible. The task is to strike the right balance. We need to take as much as we can while trying to remain attractive as the host nation.

The tax system was established in 1975 and has not been changed since then. Companies pay 78% of their net profits irrespective of whether they produce in deep or shallow water, or in winter or summer. This system is very stable, well known and predictable, and the oil companies consider it acceptable. Of course they would like to earn more, as would everyone else, but, as I stated, the oil and gas belongs to the Norwegian state. That is the deal.

We have deep waters. Our deepest field, the Ormen Lange field, is at a depth of 1,200 m. It delivers 20% of the gas consumed in England. The producer has no special conditions and pays the same taxes as every other company.

We do not use a royalty system any more. We applied royalties in the beginning and the system was constructed such that one would pay a set percentage of a set volume. If one produced 100,000 barrels per day, one paid 6% in royalties. If one produced 200,000 barrels per day, one paid 8%. What happened was that companies did not want to exceed the threshold of 200,000 barrels per day. That resulted in bad resource management. We are only occupied with the reservoir, which ought to produce the best possible product. The artificial level of royalty production did not promote good resource management so we dropped the system in 1986. We do not apply it anymore.

What was Deputy Ó Cuív's question on public consultation?

I only made a comment; I did not ask a question. I just praised Ms Agerup on her public consultation.

Ms Mette Agerup

We actually apply the EU directives. We apply an EU directive from 2009 on plans and policies. We call it the strategic impact assessment directive. It must be applied before we open areas for oil and gas activity. Directive 97/11/EC requires oil companies to carry out impact assessments before they develop pipelines, etc. Norway has two onshore gas terminals and a very large gas production facility. Norway is the second largest exporter of gas in the world. According to the gas market directive, we have a system where we have regulated tariffs and a company owned by the ministry of petroleum which operates in ensuring all companies have access to the gas pipelines on a regulated tariff basis.

Yes, there were local concerns about exploration. In the 2009 general election some parties advocated against opening a specific area in mid-Norway to exploration and petroleum activities. It has not yet been opened and there is a stepwise approach to that. We do have quarrels with the public on this issue.

Up to 200,000 persons in Norway are employed in the oil and gas industry out of a total population of 5 million. Most of those are Norwegian but a share of them are also foreign. More foreign workers will be employed because we desperately need more workers in the oil and gas sector.

The production permit is not only to ensure a flat production rate, but also to ensure that the oil and gas reservoirs are not destroyed. If a field produces too quickly, the pressure will decline meaning the remaining oil and gas could be left untouched in the reservoir. That is our main way of ensuring as much as possible is produced from a field.

The Ekofisk field was discovered by the Phillips Petroleum Company in 1969 and put into production in 1971 with a 40-year production period. At the time, Norway approved a production rate of 18% from that field. It was redeveloped in 1996 and is now currently being redeveloped for a third time. It will be in production for at least 40 years and its production rate will be approximately between 60% and 70%. This is because the authorities work with the oil companies every day and force them to do their best. Our petroleum directorate has a large group of geologists, geophysicists and the like who work with the oil companies to ensure they produce as much as possible. In this respect, it is an advantage to never have only one company in the exploration group. Having several companies allows for checks and balances.

Regarding the question about exploration data and knowing if everything is declared to the authorities, having groups of companies ensures it is. A company can cheat if it is on its own but it is not easy when there are six companies in the field. We have provisions in our law requiring companies to have specific licences for geological mapping. They must then tell us how much data they have gathered. The petroleum directorate has a pretty good idea how much data is gathered. There is also other data that is valuable and one cannot always be sure it has been declared. Over time, we have worked hard to have an open dialogue with the companies and there is a good level of confidence between the authorities and the companies.

Regarding the tax regime and the Norwegian state's participation level, we own the resources and find the right balance in this regard. That is decided on the basis of the resource base. If one discovers much oil and gas, then one becomes attractive to the oil companies and stricter conditions can be applied. It is as easy as that. We have never, however, changed any conditions after they were set. If we put down some conditions for production and we regretted them later, we stuck to them anyway. We have always tried to put as much into law as possible because it applies to everyone. The oil companies are very competent and can outmanoeuvre a government easily, especially one without expertise in this area. As much as possible must be put into the law to ensure the oil companies will know what the deal is and understand the law applies to them as it does to everyone else.

I do not know anything about Statoil's involvement in the Corrib field. The working hours on a platform in Norway are fantastic with two weeks on and four weeks off. This is the most expensive workforce in the world which causes us some concerns as it makes exploration and drilling more expensive. It is an issue on which we are working currently. A strike in an oil company is also extremely expensive.

Oil workers have good working conditions on the rigs and most have separate single cabins with a bathroom. Most of the rigs also have cinemas, ice cream machines and even fireplaces.

With those conditions Deputy Ferris might go back.

Ms Mette Agerup

It was asked if oil has made a difference to our economy. Yes, it has. We established the petroleum pension fund in 1990 after 25 years of oil production. No moneys went into the fund until 1996 because the Norwegian state used the revenue from oil to pay off foreign debts and develop the economy and society. It was after 30 years that we had a surplus. Now we do not have any foreign debts while we have €600 billion in the fund, the largest in the world. It is important to remember that it took 30 years to achieve this.

Regarding the question on unitisation and whether Statoil is in one group and a foreign company is in another, that is irrelevant. Statoil is never alone in a licence. The split between two licences is based on geology only.

Everyone has signalled. Deputies Harrington and Ann Phelan are next.

I thank our guests for their presentation and I welcome them to the meeting. Many people try to compare the Norwegian experience with the Irish experience, but they are incomparable, given that we are at the beginning. The 1965 date seems to be important. Did exploration occur prior to it and what exploration occurred between 1965 and 1972 or thereabouts, which seems to have been another important time in the Norwegian industry?

In terms of investment, how much Norwegian state involvement was there in the exploration effort, particularly in the early years when the geology suggested the fields' presence but their discovery was not yet assured? In our situation, the geology indicates significant reserves, but the industry is having considerable difficulty locating them, leading to a reluctance to invest in exploration.

Given the presentation, Norway appears to be overdependent on the industry. Our guests seem concerned about their level of reserves, but it is a concern we would like to have. They might elaborate on whether they believe Norway is overdependent on the industry.

The fiscal regime was mentioned. What is the percentage figure for the Norwegian state's contribution towards exploration? Was investment left solely to Statoil and private companies?

What is the capacity of Norway's two refineries? It was stated that strategic decisions must be taken in 2016. We are in a similar position, in that we must decide in 2016 whether to support our sole refinery. I would be interested in our guests' opinions on this matter.

The presentation referred to how much Norway exports. What is its domestic consumption of oil and gas?

I welcome that there was public consultation. It is something with which we are trying to grapple. It appears that a Norwegian consultation process in respect of a project typically takes almost one year, although it may take longer to get from commission to operation. How long does it take to get from a block being offered for exploration to the commencement of production, assuming the exploration is successful?

I welcome a woman in what I imagine is a male-dominated area. I am grateful for Ms Agerup's expertise and I compliment her on Norway's petroleum policy, which seems to be clear and concise. I can only hope that we will be given the chance to follow suit.

All industries must balance risk with return. I was interested in the comments on the natural resource rent. Given the commercial sensitivities, how did Norway get the private oil companies to comply with the principle of plurality?

Ms Mette Agerup

We did not have any exploration before 1965. For this reason, it is an important year for Norway. We established our state's oil company in 1972. We waited until we knew there would be a point in having such a company. By 1972, we knew that there were profitable volumes of oil and gas in Norway. Many countries want to start out by establishing state oil companies but many, including Norway at the time, have scarce expertise and competence in oil and gas activities. It was important for us to start by using those resources in our Government.

Following the start of exploration and prior to knowing that there were profitable fields, what were the exploration efforts?

Ms Mette Agerup

It varied. Fields were drilled from 1965 to 1969, when the first oil discovery was made in the Ekofisk field. It was the last well that the then Phillips Petroleum was obliged to drill. The company was ready to leave Norway. On Christmas Eve 1969, it found a large oil field. It was put into production in 1972, but a lead-in time of three years was very short. The current average lead-in time is ten years. The only liquified natural gas, LNG, field in Europe is in the northern part of Norway. That gas field was discovered in 1980 and put into production in 2007, a 27-year lead-in time. The period varies depending on many factors.

Since 1992, the Norwegian state has paid its whole share for exploration. From 1972 when Statoil was established to 1992 when the condition was done away with, international companies carried the state's share of exploration at their own cost. Companies hate this condition and it can only be applied if a country is attractive. If a country wants to apply the condition, the oil companies must know that there is a big prize to be earned.

While oil remains a large factor in our economy, I do not know whether we are overdependent. We have internationalised our supply industry and our exports amount to approximately €20 billion per year. We are probably not overdependent, but it is good to have the money. I do not know the capacity of our refineries, other than that they are small, and I am similarly unsure about our consumption. Oil and gas are not subsidised in Norway. At approximately €2 per litre, our gasoline prices are the highest in the world.

It is not given for free.

Ms Mette Agerup

No, it is not. Nothing is free. It is very expensive but with a population of 5 million people we do not consume much. Hydropower generates almost 100% of our electricity and the gas is exported or re-injected for enhanced oil recovery. We use hardly any gas and very little oil.

It was decided in 1975 to set resource rent at 50%. As I was not part of the Ministry then, I do not know why the figure of 50% was decided on but it has not changed since then. The thinking is that it is state property and companies shall have their fair share and no more nor less. That was considered to be 23% of net profits. Given that they have earned a lot of money in Norway, I think they are satisfied.

In regard to the principle of plurality we apply what we call the licensing directive, which ensures all conditions for activities are published before we award rights to oil companies. When we invite companies to apply for these rights we permit them to apply as individual companies or in a group with other companies while reserving the right to take companies from the group if we do not think they are qualified or add companies to the group if they can make a better contribution to geological mapping and good resource management. We do that all the time. The companies share economic issues within the joint venture and the Ministry is required by law to keep all the information we receive confidential. That has never been a problem. The law is clear on the matter and as long as we do not breach the law, it is okay.

I welcome Ms Agerup and hope she is enjoying her stay. As she will be aware, Scandinavians have been coming to this country since 800 AD. Can I assume that she is familiar with the Irish regime?

Ms Mette Agerup

Not really, I am sorry.

She spoke about lead-in times in terms of bringing newly-discovered fields to full production. Shell has recently stated that it is 18 months behind in getting the Corrib gas field up and running. This is primarily the result of local opposition. We are impressed by Norway's public consultation process. Was this prompted by past experience of local resistance or was it set out from the start? I should be careful in what I say given that a former Minister who had some responsibility in this area is present but we seem to have gone in the opposite direction. The gas company decided how it was going to bring the gas ashore and all hell broke loose because the local community felt it had not been consulted about the location of the project and the manner in which it was to proceed. As a result, the company is behind at a time when we could do with the revenue. This is what prompts my question about how Norway developed its local consultation process, which appears to be fair and equitable albeit complicated in that it goes through various stages.

Ms Agerup is clearly a key figure in this area. She noted that she was involved in negotiations with Russia. Is there an ongoing relationship between the Irish Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and the Norwegian Ministry for Petroleum and Energy?

Ms Mette Agerup

No, not to my knowledge.

That is very disappointing because we wonder where they get their information if not from one of the most successful countries in the world.

We cannot be compared with Norway. Approximately 13 drilling operations have been carried out in this country over the past 25 to 30 years but we have only found one oil and gas field. In recent days there has been news about a potential find. Does Ms Agerup think the regime operated by Norway could be mirrored here? She pointed out that Phillips was about to leave Norway when it found its massive gas field and it then became apparent that Norway possessed massive gas and oil resources. It does not appear to me that we can copy the regime developed over 40 years in Norway because we are in a different situation but I am interested in hearing her opinion.

I thank Ms Agerup for the clear picture that she painted. Norway appears to have developed a very successful model for managing its massive resources. It exerts strong control over oil companies and levies a high rate of tax. Can she see a situation whereby the Norwegian model could be implemented in a country with fewer resources? What is the strike rate in Norway? If a company takes up a licence what chance does it have of striking oil? It appears there would be a high chance of success, which is the carrot that allows the Norwegian Government to control oil companies, dictate terms and impose a high tax rate.

The public consultation process appears very thorough and runs smoothly. Have there been any delays in bringing gas or oil onshore as a result of disputes with local communities and are there people living close to the two gas refineries mentioned by Ms Agerup?

With regard to licensing, am I correct that if a company is granted a licence but does not find oil it is compensated in respect of expenses incurred during exploration? In regard to Ms Agerup's reference to the dependence of the Norwegian economy on oil and gas resources, what is the projected length of deposits of oil and gas?

I welcome Mr. Roald Naess and Ms Mette Agerup and thank them for their excellent presentation. Ireland is currently in competition with Norway in terms of oil exploration. We have learned a lot today and also from our meeting some weeks ago with the ambassador.

Ms Agerup stated that each important activity is subject to ministerial approval, for example, drilling, development of pipeline, transportation and disposal. I note that there are five Norwegian Departments involved in oil exploration, namely, the Ministries for Petroleum and Energy, Environment, Labour, Fisheries and Coastal Affairs and Finance. We can leave the Ministry of Finance aside as it is only involved in monetary terms. Does a conflict of interest arise between the involvement of the Ministries of Fisheries and Coastal Affairs or Environment and the Ministry for Petroleum and Energy in terms of environmental issues, including fisheries of which Norway also has a vast resource?

Reference was made earlier to Norway's tax rate of 78%. Ms Agerup stated that this was introduced in 1975 and that prior to this Norway operated a royalty system of 6% per 100,000 barrels and 8% per 200,000 barrels. Was the decision to change to the higher tax rate made following discovery of Norway's vast oil resource? In Ireland, we will first have to find the resources before making any such decisions. Also, it will be important to ensure companies are not frightened off by stringent tax regimes.

Other speakers have referred to Norway's planning laws. I note Ms Agerup's reference to impact assessments and the six week public consultation process in respect of projects. While each of the Departments involved can engage in the consultation process, which Department grants permission to drill and so on? Ms Agerup stated that Norway does not bring vast amounts of oil and gas onshore because it has pipelines to Germany and Britain. However, within what timeframe, following public consultation, does the Ministry for Petroleum and Energy have to make a decision in regard to the granting of permission to drill? Also, when permission is granted can it be appealed to another agency or Ministry? The planning agency in Ireland is An Bord Pleanála.

Ms Agerup stated that exploration licences are valid from six months to one year in order to control production. When a Ministry awards an exploration licence, for how long does it last on a block? Is a specific timeframe set within which a company must use that block or can it carry it over for one to ten years?

Ms Mette Agerup

The first question was on public consultation.

I asked what prompted it.

Ms Mette Agerup

It was an evolution. We did not practise public consultation in the early years. We commenced public consultation around 1978 prior to the opening up of new areas to oil and gas activity. Public consultation on concrete project development of oil and gas fields came about as a result of an EU directive which we implemented in the mid-1990s. Under this directive, public consultation on impact assessments is required. It was at this time we commenced real engagement in the public consultation process.

Deputy O'Mahony asked if projects had been delayed following public consultation. The answer to that question is "no". We started the process early, thus assuring the Norwegian people this activity was okay. There have been only two grave accidents in this area over many years, namely, the blow-out in 1976 and a platform tipping in 1980 owing to engineering errors. For this reason, people know this is safe. There has been one delay in terms of the opening of a beautiful area in mid-Norway. People do not appear to realise that we do not explore and produce oil near the coast. This is only done on the Continental Shelf, which starts 12 nautical miles from the baseline. In other words, it takes place outside territorial waters. No oil and gas activity is visible from shore. Some people have difficulty recognising this. The opening of that area has been delayed for one election period. The Norwegian Prime Minister has decided that the Ministry should commence preliminary work on the impact assessment anyway. As such, there is some work going on.

Two Members asked if the Norwegian system could be applied in Ireland. The answer to that question is, "I do not think so". We started out slowly. One of the most important things we did was to put in place a law which provides that oil and gas resources belong to the State and that the Ministry in question is permitted to grant licences to oil companies to explore and produce these resources. That was the law in 1965. A royal decree in 1972 developed this a little and was the foundation of the current legislation. We developed this fairly slowly.

We also decided that all documents were to be model documents, meaning the Ministry never negotiates documents or contracts with oil companies. The licence document is non-negotiable. We also require the oil companies to enter into two agreements between themselves when they form joint ventures. One is the joint operating agreement, and the other is the accounting agreement which regulates their application to contribute financially to the activities. Both of these are model agreements and are non-negotiable. The oil companies know this and the agreements are identical to all production licences.

The principles we applied were to negotiate as little as possible, to use model documents and to put as much as possible into legislation. One must establish the main policy principles before one gives away too much acreage to the companies and then one must stick to them. This is our recipe. Of course a complicated system has developed as our expertise has increased. One must go step-by-step.

We also decided that we would not give companies large areas in one licence. This has proved to be smart because oil companies want large areas so they can put them in the bank. Oil companies are not able to explore large areas properly in a sensible period of time. However, they are able to explore smaller areas properly. The largest area we include in a production licence is approximately 500 km² but the areas can be as small as 5 km². The oil fields are not geographically large.

I believe we followed that advice in the last round here.

Ms Mette Agerup

That was very smart. The question was asked as to how long a production licence lasts. Our exploration period can be up to ten years. When a licence is awarded it is stated how long the exploration period will be. On average it is six years, but it can be extended on application to a maximum of ten years.

Must a company be seen to be active on the site to receive an extension of the exploration licence? It cannot leave the site in the bank, wait, and then apply for an extension; it must be seen to be doing something.

Ms Mette Agerup

As I stated in my presentation, the price that oil companies must pay for a production licence in Norway is to accept a work obligation decided by the Minister of Petroleum and Energy. This work obligation is not up for negotiation. Companies offer something when they apply for a licence. We have streamlined these work obligations but companies are required to carry out work such as geological work, shooting seismic data or interpreting existing data after which they are required to drill one or two exploration wells within the six year period which can be extended to ten years. If this work obligation is fulfilled, which it always is, the companies are allowed by law to request an extension of the licence for a period of 30 years. In some instances we require companies to decide within the ten year expiration period whether to develop a field and if they do not plan to do so they must relinquish everything. We have strict rules on relinquishment.

There was a question about the planning appeals mechanism.

Ms Mette Agerup

I forgot that final question. A decision can be made following public consultation or on assignment and any decision made by the Ministry is subject to appeal. The oil companies are allowed to appeal to the body above that which made the decision. Perhaps the same system exists here. Decisions taken by the Ministry can be appealed to the Cabinet and this decision in turn can be appealed in the courts. This does not happen often and sometimes when it does the oil companies win.

The only independent body is the court. Here each local authority can grant permission but their decisions can be appealed to An Bord Pleanála which is an independent body.

It would not be local authorities.

Offshore oil is not subject to local authorities.

Onshore oil is, and I am discussing onshore oil.

There is a slight difference.

I want to discuss onshore oil.

The facilitation of an onshore oil refinery is granted by a local authority in the first instance and our independent planning appeal body is An Bord Pleanála. There is leave to appeal its decisions to the High Court. Ms Agerup stated ultimately the decision rests with the King and his council. Is the King guided by a decision of the court?

Ms Mette Agerup

Yes, if a decision has been made, but in the system the King and his council award a production licence and these decisions have never been taken to court. If the courts have ruled on an issue the Ministry applies the decision to our work.

The question was asked as to whether people live near processing plants and refineries and the answer is that they do.

As a matter of interest, how near to them do people live?

Ms Mette Agerup

To my knowledge we do not have large safety zones around the processing plants.

Is it a matter of metres?

Ms Mette Agerup

Perhaps 200 m.

Who decides if an oil or gas company's proposal is safe with regard to the pipeline? Is it the Ministry or an independent safety body?

Ms Mette Agerup

The Ministry of Labour is responsible for health and safety issues in petroleum activities. The Petroleum Safety Authority is a subordinate body of that Ministry which is responsible for safety. It is not independent but it has been given much leverage. Decisions made by this body can be appealed to the Minister of Labour.

Ms Mette Agerup

Yes. I was also asked whether the Ministry for Petroleum and Energy ever disagrees with other Ministries. That happens every day. A great deal of resources are used to deal with disagreements, especially with the Ministry of the Environment. When that happens, we solve it. That is why these important decisions are taken by the King in council. That is where all Ministers meet. When the decision is taken, it means agreement has been reached.

The allegation that was made in this country was that when the relevant Departments used to make their respective decisions on safety and on the issuing of licences, the Minister was compromised because he or she was anxious to exploit the oil. We gave responsibility for safety to an independent body for that reason. Do people in Norway make allegations to the effect that the Ministry, the Government or the King in council are under pressure to say it is safe to get the oil out?

Ms Mette Agerup

No. I mentioned that we had a blow-out in 1976. At that time, the Ministry that was responsible for awarding licences, for resource management and for commercial management - like the Ministry for Petroleum and Energy is today - but was also responsible for safety and health issues.

Ms Mette Agerup

After the blow-out, it was decided that these responsibilities should be divided between two Ministries. They have been divided between two Ministries since 1978.

Have the safety standards that were established as a result of those two incidents been accepted internationally, or were they built on international standards? I assume the tipping of the platform was an engineering mistake. Are the other safety standards that are implemented by the petroleum safety authority of the Norwegian Ministry of Labour accepted internationally?

Ms Mette Agerup

It is a dialogue issue. The safety authority based its requirements on safety standards. It developed them in conjunction with the industry. The oil companies and the workers' organisations are heavily involved in that picture. The safety requirements are being developed constantly. It is very important that all parties have a sense of ownership of the safety issues. The platform tipped as a result of the use of a system of descriptive rules for technical issues; for example, stairs had to be 15 cm high and 50 cm wide and had to be white. We left that system behind after the accident. Today, all safety issues are based on what we call goal-setting rules.

That is interesting.

Ms Mette Agerup

The committee might not be aware that new EU safety regulations are in the pipeline following the Macondo accident in the Gulf of Mexico two years ago. The Commission has decided to make a regulation on safety in all petroleum activities. We are not very happy with that because the regulation is being based, to a large extent, on specific provisions. We know that is not the best way to go about it. The Commission says that its aim is to base the regulation on goal-setting rules but it is basing it on a fair amount of specific rules as well. We have developed our goal-setting system since 1980. We have a high level of safety today.

Are companies that do not find oil or gas compensated for their costs?

Ms Mette Agerup

We do that at present. Under the system that prevailed until 2005, companies that entered Norway and did not have any income there explored, paid for the exploration and left if they did not find anything. In 2005, we realised that parts of our continental shelf were becoming very mature and their geology was becoming very well-known. The big international companies did not want to continue to explore small patches. The areas that were being relinquished and made available for re-licensing were fairly small - as I said, some of them were just 5 sq. km. Statoil, Shell and Exxon are not that interested in small patches. We decided to introduce a policy that would attract companies to explore these smaller areas. We established a system whereby companies without any income could explore, deduct their costs and have 78% of those costs refunded by the state at the end of each year. Under our tax regime, the state basically pays 78% of the cost because companies are allowed to deduct-----

In other words, an adjustment was made in Norway as a result of changes in the situation there.

Ms Mette Agerup

Yes.

The terms were adjusted because it was felt that companies were becoming less interested.

Ms Mette Agerup

I would not say they were becoming less interested but we saw a tendency in that direction. We wanted to encourage activity on these mature smaller areas. We could afford to make a change. As a result of this arrangement, which has applied for seven years, oil and gas worth approximately €100 billion has been discovered while we have refunded approximately €50 billion. It has been an advantageous arrangement. Of course it is costly in that the state has to make repayments before any developments take place. I think Norway is the only country in the world that does this. It is very specific. It did not apply until very recently.

I would like to ask about the 78% tax on profits. Ms Agerup said the companies can write off all their costs. I assume they are audited. Have the Norwegian authorities compared Norway's tax rate with that of countries like Nigeria? We would not be very aware of such a comparison. I appreciate that the large petroleum companies are operating globally. How does the Norwegian tax rate of 78% compare with the rate that is charged in countries like Nigeria, Kuwait or Saudi Arabia? I assume the oil is owned by a family in Saudi Arabia. How do those countries operate when oil companies make profits? Does Ms Agerup have any figures for the percentage tax rates that are charged in other countries?

Ms Mette Agerup

No. I cannot really say. There are comparisons. I think the committee would have to contact the Norwegian Ministry of Finance to get this precise information. There are comparisons. No tax system is like another one. There are many elements. Our tax rate is high but the reward is also high. The system is stable and well-known. It is not arbitrarily changed. If asked the oil companies will say they find this system attractive. However, one must speak to our Ministry of Finance to get the nuances of all this issue because it is they who are creating the system and applying it.

As Ms Agerup said the oil companies still find it attractive so it is a good place in which to invest. An interesting comparison would be the returns which global oil companies can take out of Norway towards some other country in respect of profits. As costs vary because exploration costs in each country are different depending on whether the drilling is on land, deep water or shallow water, much of it cannot be compared, but in respect of tax what does each country get out of it?

Ms Mette Agerup

Our tax rate is at the higher level. We do not apply a ring-fencing system, unlike many countries, where one is only allowed to deduct costs in a given area against the income in that area. That is ring-fencing. If one has costs in another area one cannot deduct those against income in area 1 but that is not so in Norway. In Norway, if one has income in one place and costs in ten other licence areas, one can deduct all the costs from that revenue.

Do I take it that the lack of ring-fencing relates only to oil activities and not to other profits?

Ms Mette Agerup

No.

Ms Agerup mentioned Shell. Is she satisfied that Shell operates to the highest operational standards applied by Norway?

Ms Mette Agerup

To my knowledge, yes.

Ms Agerup said that Statoil and the Government have a share in many of the oil fields. Do they have to put their share of the investment into the exploration? In other words, if two multinationals and Statoil and the state share in Statoil are involved in exploration which is costing €1 billion, and they have 50%, do they have to put in €500 million?

Ms Mette Agerup

They pay it, yes.

It is the same thing.

In respect of Statoil, what percentage of the commercial life of Norway is controlled by Statoil? As Statoil is practically a state company, being 67% owned by the state, what percentage of the discovered oil fields are operated by that company?

Ms Mette Agerup

I think today around 80%.

Ms Mette Agerup

I think so, but that is for historical reasons. Since 1991 Statoil is treated like any other company. The history of Norway is that we discovered the big fields early and the smaller fields later. Statoil is not operating 80% of the fields but 80% of the production. There are many operators of fields but the big fields are historically operated by Statoil, therefore, it operates large volumes.

Statoil is still a public company and is publicly quoted.

Ms Mette Agerup

Yes.

Has it bought out other companies' interests in some of the fields that have been discovered where Statoil was a shareholder?

Ms Mette Agerup

No.

Therefore, Statoil has been progressing its interest through buying out other companies in respect of their interest in fields.

Ms Mette Agerup

And selling interests to other companies as well.

Mine is an unrelated question. In respect of national oil reserves, does Norway have a month or two months of oil reserves? I am interested in making a comparison with Ireland.

Ms Mette Agerup

I think the petroleum directorate said last week that they could last for 100 years or so. I think that is what was stated.

Not the reserves but the state's reserves for the country's use.

Ms Mette Agerup

I think around 100 years if they are produced.

Would members agree the meeting was informative?

I assume that much of the oil and gas produced, particularly that produced in Norwegian waters, never comes on to the land of Norway but goes straight on to the market from the fields.

Ms Mette Agerup

The oil does not go to land in Norway. Some of the gas goes to processing plants on the coast to be separated into saleable gas and it is then shipped further to Europe.

Is much of the oil taken straight to Rotterdam from the fields?

Ms Mette Agerup

I think so, most of it.

Norway is a primary producer. The presentation has been very beneficial. I thank Ms Agerup for giving of her time and Mr. Roald Naess, ambassador of Norway, for facilitating the meeting.

I compliment members for not repeating questions but asking probing questions and Ms Agerup for being able to answer each one of them. Members of the Minister's team plus our own Department would do well to review the transcripts of the meeting. There is much food for thought. We have here a member of the Library and Research Service with whom we will discuss the issue further to develop a position. I take the point that the Norwegian position cannot be directly transposed into Ireland. If we had a Eureka moment as the Norwegians had on Christmas Eve 1969 we would be flying. We will have to bank on a rub of the green on that issue. St. Patrick was not a Viking but probably a Celt.

There are a couple of basic principles. Ms Agerup said Norway set out a very simple law at the start and has not switched from it. The agreements made are adhered to even when there may be misgivings about their implications.

Some of us were amused that the consultation process is based on an EU directive. Unless it happened yesterday, Norway is not a full member of the EU, unlike Ireland. That begs the question as to why we did not abide by EU directives in respect of the consultation process. The stability of the regime is very important, so that companies know when engaging with the Norwegian authorities they will have a transparent way of either making or losing money. There are many lessons for us to learn.

I pay tribute to the sub-committee, particularly, Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív, who recommended that before taking a final position we engage in this exercise which certainly has been worthwhile.

Norway is facing into a general election. Ms Agerup mentioned the importance of consistency which has been a feature of all the political administrations that have been in place since 1965 and the simple law that the oil and gas is the property of the Norwegian state and, therefore, everything else is built around that principle. We are a country with a similar population and domestic requirements. However, Ireland has considerable potential in wind energy. We may not be able to build up to 100% of electricity supply from it, but a significant extra amount, and 70% is attainable with onshore wind in particular. The committee will carry out a review and consider, perhaps with the help of the Oireachtas Library, how best to make a recommendation to the Minister and his officials.

I have invited Ms Agerup and the ambassador to have a cup of tea and an informal chat in the Members' restaurant after the meeting and members may join in. We have had a useful debate today and I thank the delegation and members for their contributions.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.40 p.m. until 10.40 a.m. on Wednesday, 21 March 2012.
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