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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, NATURAL RESOURCES AND AGRICULTURE debate -
Tuesday, 27 Mar 2012

Animal Health Issues: Discussion with Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine

I welcome Mr. Martin Blake, chief veterinary officer, and Mr. Richard Healy, principal officer, ERAD and the animal remedies division of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I now invite Mr. Blake to make his opening statement.

Mr. Martin Blake

I thank the committee for the invitation. I propose to address a number of issues briefly. As this is my first time appearing before the committee, the Chairman requested that I briefly explain my role as chief veterinary officer, and I will do this at the outset. I then propose to provide some context regarding the significance of animal health within the Irish agri-industry and comment on the roles and responsibilities for ensuring animal health. I will refer to the challenges associated with disease eradication programmes generally, and finally I will refer briefly to some specific animal health initiatives, in particular the bovine tuberculosis eradication programme and some recent changes on which I understand the committee is seeking information.

As chief veterinary officer, I have responsibility for matters relating to animal health, animal welfare, food safety, public health and related international trade. I have specific responsibility for the deployment of the Department's veterinary and technical staff who are engaged in animal health and welfare controls, including various eradication programmes, delivered though the Department's regional office structure, for staff engaged in food safety controls both at meat processing plants and on farm, and for staff who provide for controls relating to trade and import and export of animals and animal-based products. The position also involves providing advice across all these areas, contributing to policy development and representing the Department on such issues internationally.

The ultimate objective of most farm animal production systems in Ireland, and something which should be at the forefront of the minds of all involved in the food production value chain, including the feed manufacturer, the farmer, the service provider and the processor, is the production of high quality safe food while providing a return to business operators. The agri-industry holds a central role in the national economy and is set to be critical to the national recovery, with very ambitious targets set out in Food Harvest 2020. Of particular interest from an animal health perspective is the fact that in Ireland, around 80% of agricultural output comes from animal-based production systems. This focus on animal-based production is much higher than in most other member states of the EU. Thus in Ireland, understanding and responding to the challenges of animal diseases and the promotion of animal health is critically important in mitigating risks that are inherent in animal-based production systems.

Optimising animal production outputs and outcomes at farm level is dependent on some key critical inputs and in particular on the quality of the breeding of the animals, proper and safe nutrition and animal health. An overarching and key component that pulls all this together is the husbandry and management skills of the farmer with the support of his veterinary and other advisers. Poor animal health therefore, whether it is dramatic and obvious such as in the case of foot and mouth disease or a barely noticeable sub-clinical infection such a mild respiratory infection, has an impact on the efficiency of animal production leading to varying degrees of decreased outputs, poorer quality, increased waste, and increased husbandry and treatment costs, thereby leading to reduced returns for farmers. When animal health is mentioned, the focus is often on high-profile events but many sub-clinical, low-grade animal health challenges are a constant and greater drain on farm and national output. For instance, recent research shows that bovine viral diarrhoea, BVD, costs approximately €102 million to the Irish cattle industry on an annual basis.

Animal health status plays a significant role in international trade. While Ireland generally has an enviable record in respect of many of the major diseases of international trade significance, other endemic diseases that exist in our animal population require us to provide additional guarantees by way of assuring those trading partners with a higher health status in such areas that we are controlling effectively the risk of transferring the disease to them. The need for such assurances prompts the carrying out of tests and the provision of veterinary certification, and such requirements often lead to the need for an eradication programme. The credibility of the assurances given are absolutely critical for Ireland as a major exporting nation. Diseases of particular relevance in this context have been bovine tuberculosis and brucellosis, bovine spongiform encephalopathy, BSE, Aujeszky's disease and scrapie.

I will now make some comments on responsibilities for animal health. Responsibility for ensuring the health of animals under his or her care rests primarily with the farmer. It is the farmer who receives the benefit of good animal health through increased and better quality production and outputs and who generally is left with the costs arising from poor animal health. Nevertheless, there is a rationale for the State undertaking animal health initiatives and disease control efforts where there is a public good to accrue from State involvement. Determinants of direct State involvement revolve around the threat of or response to a major epizootic disease such as foot and mouth disease or swine fever, that is, diseases exotic to Ireland, which, if introduced, would have a major impact on production and international trade. Other determinants revolve around significant diseases from a public health perspective such as avian influenza, brucellosis, BSE, rabies and tuberculosis, which fall into this category. There have been very significant disease eradication efforts in which the State's role has been central and most obvious. I refer, for example, to the responses to the incursion of foot and mouth disease in 2001 and of equine infectious anaemia, EIA, in horses in 2006. Examples of more long-term sustained control and eradication programmes in respect of endemic diseases, that is, diseases that already exist in the country, include brucellosis, BSE, salmonella control in poultry, Aujeszky's disease and bovine tuberculosis.

There are also other disease situations in which there is less or indeed no justification for State intervention, where the potential profits and losses all accrue to individual farmers. Nevertheless some of these situations, primarily because the causes are contagious in nature, may merit some limited State support to an industry taking on the challenge of seeking to control or eradicate a disease. An example of this is the current approach to the eradication of BVD facilitated by Animal Health Ireland, AHI. Industry, as a collective, is taking leadership in addressing this issue and the State for its part has provided support to the initiative both by supporting the formation and partial financing of AHI in the first instance and by sharing the Department's animal health and laboratory expertise, as well as providing some financial support for the initial start-up of the programme. The Department is pleased with the growing confidence that all industry stakeholders have in the AHI project, which offers great opportunity to optimise animal health and improve the quality and indeed quantity of farm outputs. The CellCheck programme run by AHI also offers great opportunity for optimising returns to the dairy industry as a whole.

I will now make some observations on the challenges posed by disease eradication. This is not a simple task and the approaches to different disease challenges often require different strategies. At one level there is the science, that is, understanding the disease agent itself, its strengths and vulnerabilities, the routes of transmission and spread, the susceptibility of the animal population to infection, the level of immunity within a population, the type of test or tests to be used and so on. At a second level, there is the finance, that is, determining the costs and the potential benefits of different strategies that might be employed, which may vary at different stages in the programme. Furthermore, the finance component includes deciding on who should pay the costs and how they are to be distributed and collected if necessary. Third, there are social factors. Disease eradication is rarely a painless task and often necessitates changing attitudes and behaviours on the part of farmers and traders in animals. In this context, choices must be made as to how to ensure participation, ensure compliance and in some instances perhaps apply enforcement measures. All these components must be brought together to develop an operational strategy, which in a long-term programme may vary from year to year as components are reviewed and re-evaluated. The strategy may involve the incremental addition or modification of other controls more suitable to newer levels of disease and consistent with the overall objective of eradication.

I will now refer briefly to some of the eradication programmes in recent years. As for Aujeszky's disease in pigs, there has been a close working relationship between pig farmers and veterinary practitioners over the past number of years. Consequently, Ireland now is close to achieving recognition from the European Commission as being free from Aujeszky's disease. The effect of achieving such a status would lead to reduced costs currently associated with testing of animals that are exported. In respect of BSE, Ireland achieved a significant landmark in 2008 when gaining recognition as a country with a controlled risk for BSE from the world animal health organisation, the OIE. This enabled increased market access. There were just three cases of BSE identified in 2011 and none has been identified in 2012 to date. As for bovine brucellosis, Ireland achieved officially brucellosis-free status in accordance with EU Commission rules in 2009. This followed an intensive programme involving significant efforts on the part of farmers, veterinary practitioners and departmental staff. This success has allowed for an incremental risk-based reduction in the level of testing undertaken, with savings of approximately €8 million accruing to farmers over the past two years. It is foreseen that the required level of testing will continue to reduce over the coming years.

Finally, I will turn to bovine tuberculosis, TB. The objective of the programme is the eradication of TB. It is no secret that this is a most challenging task. Nevertheless over the last number of years, we have achieved very significant progress. Herd incidence has fallen from 7% in 2001 to 4.1% last year. In practice, this means there were almost 4,500 fewer herds restricted due to TB last year compared with ten years ago. During the same period, the number of reactors has declined, from 33,702, to 18,531, which is the lowest number on record since the commencement of the eradication programme in the 1950s. The reduction in the incidence of TB has had a significant impact on the cost of the programme, which has fallen from €52 million in 2008 to less than €40 million last year. This significant progress has been made in the context of a parallel purposeful re-focusing and refining of many elements of the programme over recent years. This refinement of the programme has been facilitated by leveraging our investment in research and in IT systems. This allows us direct our controls to the areas where greatest return with regard to reduction in disease levels can be made, thus maximising the return on the resources invested by both farmers and the State. The Department has been re-focusing on the three fundamental principles of disease eradication, namely, "Find, Confine and Eradicate", to achieve this ultimate goal of eradication. Accordingly, we have been paying increased attention to detecting the disease and preventing its spread to other herds. Greater focus is now laid on ensuring that herds test on time, on the quality of testing and testing facilities, targeting the use of available TB blood tests in TB infected herds and on reducing movement opportunities for potentially infected cattle to provide increased protection for clear herds and export markets.

I wish to emphasise that we are now addressing, in a very effective manner, the most significant remaining constraint to eradication, which is infection in wildlife, and we are moving on to apply some additional incremental controls in respect of other risk areas, which include controlling the movement of high risk animals and animals from high risk herds. The main two new initiatives this year are directed towards protecting purchasers of animals and seeking to reduce the risk that they will go into the marketplace and buy an infected animal. The measures are restricting the movement of inconclusive reactor animals to the herd in which they are identified until they are eventually moved for slaughter and, second, controlling the movement of animals, other than movement direct to slaughter, from herds that have been identified as neighbouring herds that disclose serious outbreaks, unless the herd has been tested within the previous four months or until the scheduled risk-based contiguous herd test is carried out. If such a test is necessary and a farmer wishes to sell animals on the open market, the test may be carried out in a matter of days.

In both situations, it is important to understand that there is no prohibition on the movement of animals direct to slaughter. These measures were developed in response to the findings of research based on the extensive data stored on the Department's IT system, where movements in the situations now subject to control had multiple times the risk of spreading infection into new herds than animals generally.

To be eligible to trade with our EU partners, Ireland must comply with the EU Directive 64/432. This directive imposes certain trading conditions specifically in respect of TB. These trading restrictions are designed to minimise the risk of the spread of TB to other countries through the movement of animals. The EU Commission also has a strong interest in disease eradication and has provided considerable funding towards our TB eradication programme since 2009; for example, it has approved €16 million for our 2011 programme, based on a submitted plan to which it has agreed.

I have given the committee an outline of the background to the current position and the recent changes in the TB eradication programme. Eradication of TB is now seen to be a practicable proposition, provided we maintain the drive and commitment to this objective. I hope I have addressed issues that are of interest to the committee. I will recap by highlighting that pursuing a high animal health standard is critical to the development and expansion of the animal based agri-industry in Ireland. While primary responsibility for the health of an animal lies with the farmer, the State also has a role to play in certain cases in support of the "public good" and it is one in which we have demonstrated good capability over the years. While eradication initiatives are not simple, we have had some notable successes. Significant advances have been made in recent years in regard to the tuberculosis programme and additional measures are being added incrementally to further pursue the objective of eradication.

I thank Mr. Blake for his excellent presentation. I acknowledge the work done by his section in the Department, particularly during the foot and mouth outbreak in this country in 2001, which was handled very professionally and successfully. He referred to that in his presentation.

The BVD cost to the Irish cattle industry is €102 million per annum. That is an excessively high cost to the industry and farmers generally. I realise work is ongoing on the development of a national BVD eradication programme. What are his views on the current position with that? I understand the national programme is to be rolled out next year but that work is ongoing this year. What will that programme mean for farmers in terms of the sampling required? Obviously, there will be a cost associated with the national eradication programme. How will the breakdown of that cost be met? Will it be the industry or individual farmers who will be expected to pay?

The work being done by the regional offices is essential. There has been a reconfiguration of the regional offices recently. In County Donegal, for example, the Raphoe livestock office is working at full capacity. Does the Department have the capacity to meet the challenges faced by the farming and agri-food industry in terms of the overall goal of trying to eradicate diseases such as BVD and others?

The Food Harvest 2020 report contains the overall objectives of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. The Government and Ireland Inc. have all signed up to it and support it in terms of what it can achieve for the economy in general. It is important that the work of the Department, particularly the veterinary section and the disease eradication programmes, is fully resourced and supported in that regard. However, that relates to the internal Food Harvest 2020 objectives. On the other side, the import of agrifood products into the Irish economy still continues, both from the North and overseas. What type of threat does that pose to the Irish consumer?

My final question might not be a fair one but it refers to an area that is linked to disease minimalisation and eradication. It is the fallen animal scheme for farmers who lose animals through no fault of theirs and the associated cost of that. In the north west it is a colossal cost for the farmer because the plants are so far away. The lorries generally travel from the midlands to Sligo and Donegal in the north west and then travel back. The cost of removing a cow or a bullock from a farm could be approximately €300 for the farmer. It is a very high cost. The fallen animal scheme was in place previously to subsidise that. Would the veterinary section of the Department recommend that the scheme should be reintroduced? A level playing field could be introduced whereby no farmer would pay above a certain fee for the removal of a dead or fallen animal from their farm. It would be fair and could be justified from an animal health point of view. I understand the animal health and welfare Bill is due to be brought before the Oireachtas after the Easter recess. Is that something that could be recommended or incorporated in that legislation?

I thank Mr. Blake and Mr. Healy for attending this meeting. Most people would be aware of the animal health and food safety aspects of their work, but not many would have been aware of the animal welfare aspect. It is not an element of their work that receives a great deal of publicity. Will the planned animal welfare legislation mean their role will be expanded, and will they have the resources to accommodate that expansion? Have they considered that matter?

The office has done very good work. There is confidence in Irish animals now that did not exist 20 years ago. The office deserves to be supported in continuing that work in the years ahead. Worldwide, there is a thing called the International Classification of Diseases, ICD, which shows the prevalence of disease rates in every country. Is there an animal equivalent of the ICD? Is animal disease reported on a worldwide basis and where would Ireland stand in terms of animal health in the EU and worldwide? I notice that Schmallenberg virus is not a notifiable disease but, in Mr. Blake's opinion, should it be notifiable? What steps are being taken at national and EU levels to develop diagnostic tests, antidotes and treatments?

As regards Schmallenberg and all other diseases, can Mr. Blake comment on the level of communications he has had with the Northern Ireland Executive's Department of Agriculture and Rural Development on animal welfare, food safety, animal health and public health?

I note too that the chief veterinary officer contributes to policy developments, representing the Department on such issues internationally. I assume that would include commenting and advising on any process that might be damaging to the health or welfare of animals. Has Mr. Blake considered making a submission to the EPA on the current GM potato trial licensing process? I think Thursday is the deadline for receipt of submissions.

Does the office of the chief veterinary officer have concerns about the impact of fracking on animal health? Exploratory licences have already been granted in this respect and the subject of production licences will be considered in due course. There is international evidence that animal health has been impacted by fracking in other jurisdictions.

Like previous speakers, I welcome the gentlemen from the Department. My questions predominantly concern TB. I have been farming for the past 25 years and my father farmed before that for twice as long. During that time, efforts to eradicate TB have failed, although we have eradicated brucellosis. There is a body of opinion which, rightly or wrongly, asks whether this amounts to "jobs for the boys", ensuring that vets have an income for an indefinite period. More and more testing is being done more frequently, yet we still do not seem to achieve the objective of having a TB-free zone. Animal welfare is essential if we are to use agriculture to get the economy up and running again. Nonetheless that perception is out there and it needs to be addressed.

The cost of TB to the country is substantial. What is the breakdown of testing compared with the badger-catching issue, which is seen as one of the main reasons for TB? What kind of co-operation are we having in that regard? From time to time, there can be difficulties in securing licences to catch badgers. What kind of success rate are we having in that respect?

When a herd is locked up and is due to be tested two months later, why can the Department's vets not take on that testing, rather than paying a local vet to do the job? Is there a double payment involved? For example, the Department currently has approximately 700 vets on its books, so why can they not undertake such tests, rather than employing a local vet to do so, because serious costs are involved?

What part do departmental vets play in ensuring that the process is completed? In my own case, a couple of years ago, I had a TB breakdown. The number of people who came to visit my farm as a result was unbelievable. First of all, there was the test, then somebody came to tell me what procedures I should follow. Somebody else told me how to wash the place, and someone else told me where the infection could be coming from, having walked around my farm. Another individual told me that some wildlife would be caught in a certain area. All of this cost a lot of money, so could it not be tidied up more efficiently to achieve the same objective?

I have reservations about the new policy for restricting neighbouring farms. In some cases, TB tests are inconclusive and, in addition, when animals go to slaughter there may be no lesions. Tests may be forthcoming in two months' time and there may be no negative results, yet there could be a knock-on effect. This can have serious consequences for farmers if it is at the wrong time of year. Farmers may, as a result, have to store animals for a longer period than they had planned.

What part do the Department's technical staff play in ensuring that TB testing is as streamlined as it should be? A number of technical staff are continuously arguing for more work within the Department, so could they play a bigger part in future in order to secure TB-free status?

I would also like to pay tribute to the Department for its work. A long time ago, I remember talking to a very old farmer who believed that there were no badgers, only vets.

Can Mr. Blake say if it is possible to achieve the ultimate goal of eradicating TB in cattle without also eradicating the badger population? Will the latter species have to go in order to achieve that goal? I am trying to separate fact from fiction. Some farmers feel that practices have been restrictive and it is all to do with the cards. Is it true that if a farm is down, the next door neighbour's cards will be taken away? A large electric fence may separate the farm that is down, with 10 m in between and where animals never meet, so they cannot see why their cards would be taken up.

Even if one farm is separated from another by tillage, is it true that a farmer's cards can still be taken away? Deputy Deering will be aware that in south Carlow some farms are very fragmented. Therefore one farmer might have the potential to bring down about 18 farms around his property.

Is Mr. Blake confident that everything is being done to prevent the Schmallenberg virus? Farmers tell me that they have little or no information about this virus and they are worried about it. They wonder if the Department will produce any leaflets or hold information evenings about it.

Regarding the restrictions being placed on farmers during the eradication of TB, there is great concern about the practice of backloading, whereby calves can be brought in from Romania and Poland with little or no testing although Irish farmers have to conform to very restrictive practices.

I thank Mr. Blake and Mr. Healy for coming before the committee. Some people have touched on the matter I wish to deal with, namely, TB eradication. I compliment the Department on Ireland's reputation for safe food. Much of this is due to the Department's success in keeping diseases such as foot and mouth out of the country. However, we may now be going over the top with regard to restrictions. If my neighbour's herd has two or more reactors four months and one day after my last test, I am also restricted and prevented from selling my animals. This will have major implications for farmers, and especially on weaning sales in the fall of the year. At present, it has major implications for pure-bred sales and for the sale of calves by dairy farmers.

I am an active farmer. No matter how many times I stand for election, the most stressful day I have in my life is the day of a herd test. Things can go wrong. I do not say my animals are mad but they can be, on the day of a test. I do not want to say this is particularly true of sucklers and Limousin breeds. A herd test is stressful for the farmer, but also for the animals. If my neighbour is down and stays down and I want to continue trading in live animals, I could possibly have three tests during a year, which is wrong.

With regard to EU Directive 64/432, Mr. Blake said in his presentation:

To be eligible to trade with our EU partners, Ireland must comply with the EU Directive 64/432. This directive imposes certain trading conditions specifically in respect of TB. These trading restrictions are designed to minimise the risk of the spread of TB to other countries through the movement of animals.

I have always understood this does not apply to the export of a slaughtered animal. I have also always been led to believe that if a buyer at a mart sought an export certificate for an animal, the animal had to be within 60 days of test. The new restrictions should not apply in relation to that.

Why has the restriction been changed to four months? Has any risk analysis been done on this? Are there statistics regarding continual testing of neighbouring herds. I have known situations where people who have tillage ground beside neighbours have been restricted, although there is no possibility of their animals coming into contact. While I accept that TB can be spread on the wind there is no possibility of these animals infecting each other. This situation must be looked at. Farmers will be faced with the cost of these tests. I was amazed to hear that if my neighbour is down within four months I will have to pay for a test of my herd.

I also raise the issue of changes relating to inconclusive reactors. At present, if the Department urges a farmer to retest an animal that has had an inconclusive test result and the animal passes the retest, it can then be sold at a mart. Now, it seems the animal cannot go to a mart but must be sent to a factory. Are there statistics or risk analysis relating to this? In 99.9% of such cases the animal, which had been inconclusive but passed a retest, did not show lesions when slaughtered in a factory.

A farmer who goes 24 days over the allocated time for the annual herd test will now be prosecuted and suffer penalties on the single farm payment. This is bureaucracy going crazy. There are many reasons a farmer cannot have a herd test at a certain time. I will not give a list of excuses, but there can be family circumstances, for example. Farms can be fragmented. There are many fragmented farms in County Kilkenny. I know a farmer who has eight different holdings, either rented or owned, but has crush facilities on only one of them. For him to have a test he has to plan to have enough grass on his own holding to hold his herd for a week, because he cannot send them back and forth to his out-farms.

Imposition of penalties on the single farm payment is wrong. Farmers should not be asked to pay the cost of tests. These issues need to be looked at. The Department has been in discussions with the IFA in this regard and the IFA proposes a six-month restriction. The four-month restriction is crazy. A farmer could be forced to pay for three tests in a year. I could be a weanling seller planning to sell my weanlings on 1 September and might not know my neighbour is testing. If he has two reactors in his herd my plan to sell my animals would go out the window. This regulation will have implications for cash flow and animal welfare. The four-month restriction must be looked at. It is unfair and has a cost implication.

I would welcome the comments of Mr. Blake and Mr. Healy in this regard. I compliment them on their presentation and on the job the Department is doing with regard to disease eradication. However, we have had TB since the 1950s and we will not eliminate it overnight. There are various reasons it has not been eradicated.

The four-month restriction must be changed. I will be proposing that the committee write to the Minister to ask him to look at the matter in consultation with his departmental officials.

I thank Mr. Blake for his presentation. He provided much useful information. The issue of TB has been covered very well by my colleagues. We must remember that farmers are now paying for TB testing, which is a large cost every year.

Is the Department happy with the take-up of the bovine viral diarrhoea, BVD, eradication scheme? Will participation be compulsory next year and will farmers have to bear the cost of it? It is quite costly. The cheapest test is €3.90 for the test, plus postage and so on.

Does the Department see a situation where dead animals could be buried on the farm, now that the risk of BSE has gone? I believe that was the reason why animals could not be buried on the farm.

During the food and mouth disease outbreak in 2001, we had to patrol the Border. Might we have an all-Ireland animal health policy in the future when we would co-operate with our people in Northern Ireland and only have to patrol the ports around the island of Ireland? I see this as a much easier way to manage problems such as BSE or the Schmallenberg virus that is occurring in sheep at present.

I thank the officials for their detailed presentation. As a suckler farmer, I remember the traumatic day when I was a young school boy and we had a reactor in our herd. Although we subsequently found the animal had no lesions, I have never forgotten the day. My cattle are not as wild as Senator O'Neill's seem to be, but I know all about the trauma of the testing day.

Although the issue of TB has been well covered, I would like to make a couple of points. I welcome the statistics in the report on the drop in the herd incidence to 4.1% from 7% in 2001 and that the number of reactors has dropped to 18,500 from 33,500 in the same period. I note that the cost of €52 million in 2008 has reduced to less than €40 million for the scheme in 2011. How much of the €40 million is expended on departmental personnel? How many staff are involved full time on the TB eradication programme and how has the number changed in the past ten years? Has the number reduced in line with the reduction in costs?

Does Mr. Blake have statistics on the percentage of farms with reactors adjoining farms that were locked up? What is the basis of the premise behind the second initiative announced this year to lock up farms where neighbouring farms have had a reactor? I would have a major difficulty with the four-month period. The process puts a significant cost and strain on farmers. Senator O'Neill referred to knock-on implications such as on nitrates given that one's plans are upset if such an event occurs. I accept that the goal is the eradication of TB but does Mr. Blake envisage when that will happen? Does the Department have a timeline or target to work towards? In light of the great improvement in recent years, is it envisaged that the programme could come to an end following the eradication of TB?

I welcome the fact that there was no case of BSE in this country in recent years. Does Mr. Blake envisage the reintroduction of meat and bone meal for use in this country?

On the new approach to contiguous herds, is it intended in the case of a full reactor or two or more inconclusive cases? It was said that if a farmer wishes to sell animals on the open market tests may be carried out in a matter of days. Is that a full herd test or only on the animals intended for sale?

I come from an area that is not the norm at the moment in so far as there is a high incidence of TB in Wicklow. It is a hotspot for it for various reasons. One contention is that the level of wildlife is a factor. I welcome the reference to wildlife species. They have been identified as the most significant remaining constraint to eradication. Do the wildlife species include deer as well as badgers? Will extra resources be allocated to hotspots given the significant reduction in TB levels in general?

Mr. Martin Blake

There are a significant number of questions. Mr. Richard Healy will speak about some of the issues relating to payment for tests, which is relevant. As Deputy Ann Phelan said, it is important to separate fact from fiction. I will go through the questions in the order in which they were asked.

We must go to the Seanad for a vote so we must be excused.

We will make a full report to Seanad members of the committee. We will get Senator Ó Domhnaill's questions at the start anyway.

Is it possible to get a full report on the questions and answers from the Department?

Yes. Mr. Blake should commence.

Mr. Martin Blake

The BVD programme is currently a voluntary one that is run by Animal Health Ireland. Essentially, the disease costs the industry €102 million a year. The overall cost over a three-year programme is estimated at €60 million. The investment of €60 million by the industry over a three-year or four-year period will save €102 million every year. It is a voluntary scheme at the moment and the uptake is high. More than 500,000 people have received additional tags to take samples. It is a significant uptake of a voluntary scheme in this country. The intention is that there would be a compulsory eradication programme next year. We are currently in discussions with Animal Health Ireland on the types of controls the Department might need to put in place in terms of legislation to ensure people participate. While I cannot say for certain the intention is that every calf born next year would be tested. The programme is an innovative one which is built upon taking a tissue tag rather than taking a blood sample from an animal. The uptake has been positive. We look forward to agreeing on next year's programme with Animal Health Ireland.

We have reduced the number of regional offices from 28 to 16. We were able to do that on the basis of utilising the technology in which we have invested in recent years. We have computerised many of our records. We are satisfied that we have a good geographical spread of offices to provide on-farm coverage from an animal health perspective.

Imports are always something of which one must be conscious. We must also be conscious that we are part of the European Union and that we are a significant exporter ourselves. We have a consistent monitoring of what is happening within Europe and across the world on what animal health issues are in play at any point. If we are free of a disease we can look for additional guarantees on imports. In certain cases we make a case to prove we have no disease. If we can prove we do not have a particular disease in this country we can seek additional guarantees on imports. The blue tongue situation was a case in point. We were able to prove that we did not have blue tongue. Therefore, we were able to get additional guarantees on blue tongue in regard to imports. Certain requirements are in place for the trade in animals across all of Europe in regard to certain diseases, namely, TB, brucellosis, leukosis, blue tongue and BSE. Anyone exporting animals to this country must apply those controls and carry out whatever tests may be necessary.

The fallen animal scheme was mentioned in a few contributions. The Department took a view some time ago that other than providing a subsidy towards requirements from our perspective towards carrying out BSE surveillance and scrapie surveillance, the cost of fallen animals must be carried by the industry. I would not envisage any rowing back on that.

I will now turn to Deputy Colreavy's questions. Staff in the Department and in local offices spend an amount of time on animal welfare. There are requirements for us to carry out welfare checks on farms, which we do on a yearly basis. It is an element of cross-compliance and single farm payment, which was raised, that people must comply with certain animal welfare requirements. The animal health and welfare Bill will come before the Oireachtas shortly. Through it the Department will legislate for animal welfare generally. It is updating legislation from 1911 to reflect the contemporary position. It puts a more positive perspective on the requirements to provide for animal welfare rather than on the prosecution of someone for cruelty to animals. That is reflected in much EU legislation that has been introduced in recent years.

On where we stand in terms of a database of diseases, the World Organisation for Animal Health, OIE, is based in Paris, and comprises 178 members around the world. We all provide data to it which are available on its website. We provide quarterly and yearly reports on a range of diseases. The information on the levels of prevalence of particular diseases in different countries is available internationally. It is the international benchmark for exotic epizootic diseases. We have to convince it we do not have foot and mouth disease or swine flu. After 2001 we had to undertake a significant amount of surveillance to prove no foot and mouth disease remained in the country.

Schmallenberg virus is new and from the same family of viruses found across Australasia and in the Far East. The disease is caused by similar viruses, has a relatively low morbidity rate and does not cause a lot of sickness in animals. They may be off feed or production for a couple of days. Some viruses have been shown to cause congenital defects in some newborn animals and are restricted to cattle and sheep.

The most commonly referenced is Akabane virus in Australia. The OIE, which is the international benchmark on disease, does not impose any restrictions on trade in respect of the virus. A lot of data is being collected on Schmallenberg, which suggests it is fairly widespread across western Europe and consistent with the spread of the disease at last summer.

A significant number of herds are showing evidence of infection with few clinical signs. Notwithstanding the spread of the virus, herds in eight countries across Europe, including the UK, show congenital abnormalities. Just over 2,000 herds in those countries have reported congenital abnormalities. The countries involved include the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, France and Spain.

A lot of activity is happening at European level to try to co-ordinate and collate all the data. The European Food Safety Authority, EFSA, provides scientific advice to the Commission and is collating data. It expects to publish an interim report on 31 March on its evaluation of the significance of the data which has been found so far.

In regard to Schmallenberg, there is no evidence it has any public health significance. The virus has been around for the past ten or 11 months. Surveillance of people who have been in contact with animals showed no sign of exposure to the virus. No clinical signs are associated with it and there is no public health issue associated with it or any of the family of viruses related to it.

At national level we have given some publicity to the information on the Department's website. We produced a number of articles for the Irish Farmers’ Journal and a number of other media have carried articles. We plan to update our website after the EFSA publication at the end of this week. A group in the Department, chaired by the Secretary General, reviews our response to Schmallenberg on an ongoing basis.

In our laboratories we have, I understand, 74 examples from 66 animals submitted by practitioners from farms where congenitally abnormal foetuses were found and all were negative. Most were from cattle firms. The thinking is that the number of identified problems on sheep farms within Europe has decreased over recent weeks. The peak at sheep level seems to have passed.

The expectation is that the virus infects lambs early in pregnancy which causes congenital abnormalities. There is some expectation that over the next month the number of cases in cattle might increase. It is something we will monitor over the next four to six weeks because the gestation period for cattle is nine months whereas for sheep it is six months.

With regard to North-South communication, we have a very close working relationship with Department of Agriculture and Rural Development in Northern Ireland on animal health matters in particular. Not alone are there contacts at local level across the Border where information is passed back and forth between local offices, there are also regular North-South working group meetings on animal health covering a range of issues, a small number of which are of international concern. There is regular contact between the various departments to try to align our responses to potential threats.

The situation reflects the attitude to bluetongue. There was a close working relationship between Department of Agriculture and Rural Development and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. An east-west approach was taken to the problem. North and South worked together to try to minimise the risk of disease spreading from Britain to the island of Ireland.

Fracking is something we will note. There are some suggestions in the literature that animal health issues could arise. If it comes to pass we will feed into the process and investigate the matter if needs be. Genetic modification involves the plant rather than the animal health side.

Deputy Deering compared TB and brucellosis. As I said in my presentation, disease eradication is complex and the methodologies and challenges posed differ from disease to disease. The technologies available for testing, the manifestation of disease and the extent to which a disease can remain undetected in animals over periods of time are different. Brucellosis only affects pregnant females whereas TB could affect all 7 million cattle on the island. Different challenges and tools are available.

Reference was made to the lack of progress over the past 50 years, which is something of which no one can be proud. However, we need to understand the challenges. It was only in the 1990s it became apparent a wildlife reservoir was contributing to the disease. A lot of effort was made between the 1950s and 1990s to try to eradicate disease when infection was being fed back into cattle and we were not aware of that. It was only when we carried out the east Offaly project in the 1990s that we demonstrated that, within Ireland, wildlife, in particular badgers, played a significant role in the perpetuation of disease in cattle.

Mr. Healy will deal with costs. We have no significant problem with licences to capture badgers. We are licensed by the National Parks and Wildlife Service to capture them. We have a working relationship with the service and apply for a licence every year. We negotiate with it.

On whether Department staff or veterinary practitioners should test restricted herds, there are approximately 276 vets in the Department. They cover laboratories, the district veterinary office, DVO, side of things, and the veterinary public health side. In recent years we have begun to increase the amount of testing carried out by departmental vets on the basis of the reduction in brucellosis and in activities in regard to BSE. There has been a greater focus on the TB programme as we have been able to devolve more staff back to it.

The number of visits that take place in regard to herd restrictions is an issue we have been examining in recent years. I hope someone who is restricted today will not be telling me the same story as was outlined today. We have fine tuned and aligned many of our activities and interaction with farmers. The number of interactions with farmers should be much more co-ordinated and less scattered than the experience outlined. All of the systems are based on ensuring certain activities take place, information is passed on, and checks are carried out. We have a renewed focus on ensuring the test is carried out as well as possible. We have sought to enhance and improve our quality control of testing, to ensure restricted reactor animals are segregated, and that milk from reactor animals is controlled such that it is not being fed back to other animals or going for processing.

A number of speakers raised the issue of the restriction on neighbouring herds and inconclusive reactor tests. They are two specific projects we introduced this year, both of which are based on research evaluation of the available data. We can make the information available subsequently but I do not have it with me. In the context of the contiguous herds, if one goes to the market and purchases an animal, one is three to four times more likely to have a reactor if one buys an animal sold from a contiguous herd within four months of testing than if one buys an animal from a herd that was not contiguous to a restricted herd. Our data on inconclusive animals show that if an inconclusive animal which passes a test is sold on that it is ten times more likely to be a reactor in the future than any other animal in even the same herd which was not inconclusive. We find the data compelling.

Deputy Ann Phelan raised the issue of cattle and eradicating TB without eradicating the badger population. We are doing exciting research on the vaccination of badgers which is an alternative to their eradication. We have carried out much research in the past ten years in controlled environments and recently we took the experiments into the field and vaccinated badgers in the wild. We will assess the efficacy of vaccinating badgers in the context of the transmission of TB within the badger population and between badgers and cattle.

We have two different projects. In one place we are capturing and orally vaccinating badgers and in another place we are capturing and injecting badgers with vaccine. It will be a couple of years before we have data which will tell us one way or another how successful is the approach, but it is our ambition and expectation that this will have an impact on the dynamic of disease passing between wildlife such as badgers and cattle. The hypothesis is that if one reduces the infection burden by population reduction or vaccination so that disease is not being transmitted, there will be an improvement in the situation. We are not necessarily saying badgers will not get infected but they will not be so infected that they will become infective and pass on the disease to another animal. The research is ongoing and it probably will be two years before we have any hard data emerging from it. One project will finish this year and it will take approximately a year to do the laboratory work and to obtain proof. We hope that in 2014 we will be able to speak with greater certainty on when the ultimate objective of eradicating TB will be achievable.

The locking up of contiguous herds is triggered by an on-farm investigation by a veterinary inspector who will determine the extent of where the infected fragment is and the contiguous herds in that regard. It could be that there would not be a blanket application of a restriction; it is about assessing the likely infectivity of an outbreak on a farm. For instance, if one has ten reactors and there has not been a test in the past four months, one's neighbours will be restricted until they are tested. They are only restricted until they test. The reason is to ensure they do not sell animals that could be infected to the 97% of other farmers who might buy them but those people can still sell animals for slaughter.

We dealt with the Schmallenberg virus. On the importation of calves, we are an exporting country and we operate within the same rules in the EU. Animals coming to us have to satisfy the same rules with regard to assurance, TB, brucellosis and other issues, depending on from where they come. Specifically, we get assurance on blue tongue.

Senator O'Neill raised the question of the application of the additional controls we have put in place on contiguous and inconclusive animals. We can provide the data later. We are satisfied the data show us the additional risk that exists. The data on inconclusive reactors are particularly compelling. The data show the additional risk is multiplied three to four times when buying an animal from a farm contiguous with a TB reactor if they have not tested in the previous four months.

Does Mr. Blake not see the hardship that entails?

Senator O'Neill should please wait until Mr. Blake has concluded.

Mr. Martin Blake

Mr. Richard Healy will deal with paying for the test. Cross-compliance is an issue for the single farm payment. There are a number of cross-compliance rules and measures with which farmers must comply. One is that farmers would test when they are required to test. Another issue relates to welfare. Such information must be passed through the Department which shares data with those involved in cross-compliance, if need be.

Senator Comiskey raised the issue of payments, with which Mr. Healy will deal. I covered bovine viral diarrhoea, BVD, in the context of where it is at. We are satisfied the voluntary scheme in which a quarter of all calves born in this country this year are participating is good. He also raised the issue of burying animals on-farm. I do not see any return to burying animals on-farm. BSE coincided with environmental requirements on the burial of animals. I do not foresee any change in that regard. On an all-island animal health strategy, I explained earlier that we have close North-South relationships and ongoing contact on a weekly and sometimes daily basis.

Deputy Heydon inquired about the cost of personnel and savings. Mr. Healy will address those issues. On the potential number of herds affected by the measures on contiguity, based on last year's figures approximately 8,000 would be subject to contiguous testing. Not all of them will have tested in the past four months but some of them might have tested recently or are due a test. It will be a factor of that 8,000. We cannot say with certainty. As I stated, those animals, if they are restricted, could still move to slaughter and the farmers can expedite their tests as quickly as they want to.

On the milestone for eradication, probably in two years' time when we have the outcome of our wildlife research we will be able to give a better guess at that.

On BSE and the use of meat and bone meal, I do not believe we will ever see the use of meat and bone meal in ruminant animals again. There may be some issues at play in using processed animal protein in the monogastrics - poultry or pigs. That is a debate that can be had, but I do not believe we will ever see meat and bone meal ever used in ruminant animals again.

The Chairman raised continuous testing. What triggers it is an assessment on the farm by the veterinary inspector. It will at least require two standard reactors being identified. Two standard reactors might not trigger this. It involves a full herd test because, ordinarily, what we are saying here is that this is a test that we have identified as being a necessary risk test. The position to date has been that we would list this test and farmers would sell before they do the test. What we are saying now is that we want them to do the test before they sell. If we have decided that this is a risk herd, we want a contiguous test done. It is not that we are doing additional testing. What we are doing is saying that, ordinarily, we would have identified that this is a herd which should be tested because it is contiguous to a high-risk herd. We are saying that rather than selling before doing the test, the farmer should do the test before he or she sells and that way he or she will protect whoever is purchasing the animals.

On wildlife, our view is that deer are not a significant contributor to the perpetuation of disease in the environment. Deer become infected because cattle and badgers are infected. Our focus would be on controlling the infection in badgers which will reduce the infection in deer. Deer are a dead end to us. We do not believe that they are a major contributor to re-infecting cattle but in the context of where badgers and deer share an environment, there is a maelstrom of disease in the environment but if we focus on controlling badgers, the disease in deer will die out. That is our perspective on deer.

Before we finish, Mr. Healy might speak to the committee on some of the costings issues.

Mr. Richard Healy

Deputy Heydon asked the proportion of the overall cost accounted for by staff costs. The figures we cited of €50 million reducing down to €40 million do not include staff costs. The reason they do not include staff costs is that it is difficult to isolate the cost of personnel involved in TB testing because the same staff are involved in a range of activities in the animal health and welfare area. They cover brucellosis, BSE and animal welfare and it is difficult to isolate the precise cost attributable to TB. We did it in an exercise in 2006 when we estimated the cost at approximately €30 million per annum. That cost would have reduced quite significantly in the meantime. The main reason for this is that we have reduced the numbers of staff involved in the DVOs in the meantime quite significantly. We have done so for two reasons. First, as Mr. Blake stated, we have leveraged the IT system to a much greater degree in the past four or five years than previously, and, second, the rationalisation of the DVOs has resulted in a significant improvement in the efficiency with which we carry out our business. I suspect that the cost is somewhere between €20 million and €25 million, including the 50% add-ons related to pensions, PRSI, office space, etc.

The general rule is that the farmers pay for one test per annum. However, where a farmer has a TB breakdown, the Department will pay for that test and for all subsequent tests until the herd goes clear. Having a breakdown does not impose additional costs on a farmer in terms of testing. Obviously, it imposes additional costs in other respects, but not in terms of testing.

On contiguous tests, if the farmer has already had a test earlier in the year, the Department will pay. For example, if the farmer has a round test in January and he has a contiguous test in May, September and December, the farmer will have paid for his round test in January, but the Department will pay for the subsequent contiguous tests later in the year based on the principle that the farmer pays for one test per annum. The bulk of the additional cost in terms of testing associated with TB breakdowns is borne by the Department, not by farmers.

I would make the point on contiguous testing generally that we are not in the business of requiring farmers to test unnecessarily. We pay for those additional tests. We have refined our contiguous testing programme over the years, in particular, to ensure that we do not pay for any more tests than we need to and we do not impose any additional testing on farmers than is necessitated by virtue of the nature of the TB eradication programme.

We spent approximately €11 million last year on testing and we spent approximately €3 million on the badger removal programme.

Deputy Deering will be followed by Senator O'Neill.

I have a brief question on the accuracy of the TB test. From a brucellosis test point of view, we take a blood sample. Are there plans to go down the same road with TB tests because it would seem to be more accurate?

That was one of the questions I was going to ask. In regard to a new TB test, would a blood test help to eradicate it. I note it is being developed.

I welcome the news that if a farmer had a test in a previous year, in the following 12 months he or she is not subject to one. However, I would ask the witnesses to look at the four-month aspect. Four months is restrictive. We should not hide behind the trade directive, EU Directive 64/432, because that directive does not require herds neighbouring a TB breakdown to be restricted. The trade directive states that once the herd is free from TB and has been tested within the previous 12 months, it is eligible to trade. I note this is to try to help us eradicate, but the four-month rule will be too restrictive.

Mr. Blake mentioned that one can send the animals to slaughter. Those of whom I speak are farmers in the west of Ireland involved in the weanling trade. It could cause mayhem in the weanling trade come August, September and October. Something should be done in this regard because not everyone can send animals to slaughter. This is especially so in the west where they sell the weanlings to the east.

I ask about a new test. Hopefully, the disease will be eradicated. It is a stressful day, hoping that it will go right for the animals.

Has Mr. Blake any response?

Mr. Martin Blake

On testing, over the years we have continuously evaluated different blood-testing regimes. Unfortunately, to date we have not come up with a blood test that would be equivalent to the tuberculin test. There is a blood test which we use quite regularly to support the tuberculin test in infected herds where we try to identify more reactors quicker. The difficulty with that test is that if we applied it generally, we would find too many false positive reactors. While we continue to work with different manifestations of blood tests and different laboratories come forward with different blood tests at different times, we still have not got one that would replace the tuberculin test. We all aspire to having a one-day test because we recognise the hassle and stress involved in assembling animals over two days. If we had an effective one-day test, it would be much simpler for everyone. Unfortunately, therefore, we do not have an alternative at this point.

With regard to the trade directive, Senator O'Neill is correct that the directive concerns intra-Community trading. Our aim, in the context of increasingly refining our controls, is the eradication of TB. I mentioned in the presentation that there is a mix in regard to the science, the social issues and the financial issues, all of which have to be taken together. The data suggests that if a person buys an animal from a herd that is contiguous to a high risk breakdown before the herd is tested, the person buying is at a greater risk. We are refocusing on trying to protect the buyer of the animals.

People understand they are selling their weanlings in the period from August to November. Anyone having a herd test in June or July will not be caught by this. If they have a contiguous herd in September, they will have had their herd test in June or July.

I want to clarify this as it is important. Mr. Blake said an assessment takes place. Given the scenarios outlined today, the fear is that where there is a fragmented farm divided into, say, eight different parcels, every farm adjoining those is automatically treated as having a contiguous herd no matter how low the risk, whether it is a farm that had been unoccupied or in tillage. Mr. Blake is saying that, in an assessment on a case-by-case basis, it could be that none or just one or two of the farmers on the holding is deemed contiguous. Is that correct?

Mr. Martin Blake

That is possible. It comes down to understanding the dynamics of how that farmer farms that land, what is the pattern of movement and the likely scenario in regard to when infection happened.

It is not automatic.

Mr. Martin Blake

It is not a computerised-----

I do not agree that is how it is being implemented. If we take an example-----

This is from the chief veterinary officer.

I am just making the point that district veterinary officers, DVOs, are not operating in this way. I know of a gentleman whose neighbour is restricted despite that neighbour having tillage all around him and the fact he holds the animals on a different farm and will never have animals there.

To take the example of my situation, I have an out-farm adjoining my land and the person involved is restricted and I get a notice to that effect from the Department every year. My land which neighbours that person's land is all in tillage and the property is divided by a road, with stock on the other side. My neighbour has only sheep beside my land but he has a restricted herd at his home place, where he is milking cows. I could get caught in this situation. I would accept it if each case was looked at individually, and I hope that is the way the DVOs see this and that it is not a blanket assessment. Each farm should be assessed. I would welcome it if the DVO were to come out to a farm and decide that since the land is all tillage, there is no need for a restriction.

Mr. Martin Blake

I cannot comment on individual cases. I would point to the centrality of wildlife in the dynamic and perpetuation of disease in rural Ireland. We are not just talking about people 10 m or 15 m away. TB is a disease that clusters in areas and it depends on the dynamic of what is happening. To go back to what I said to the Chairman earlier, it is about assessment on an individual basis, not a blanket application of a control. As Mr. Healy said, we are not in the business of paying for testing we do not need.

I thank Mr. Blake and Mr. Healy for attending today at relatively short notice. The presentation was informative and clarified a few misunderstandings. Hopefully, the feedback from members will have encouraged them to review the protocols, although that is ultimately their call. In particular, I ask them to consider what Senator O'Neill said about assessment so it is not just a blanket, automatic removal of the cards. If the Department is the body that carries out the tests and somebody has an urgent need for a test, it should be dealt with as expeditiously as possible. People have pedigree sales coming up and, given these involve time-restricted entry dates and are very important to their overall annual incomes, it is important they would be facilitated at every opportunity.

Can the statistics quoted be made available to members?

They can send the information to the secretariat and we will have it distributed. I again thank Mr. Blake and Mr. Healy. As there is no further business, we will adjourn.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.25 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 19 April 2012.
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