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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, NATURAL RESOURCES AND AGRICULTURE debate -
Thursday, 17 May 2012

Administrative Priorities: Discussion with Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine

From the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine I welcome: Mr. Tom Moran, Secretary General; Mr. Kevin Smith, Mr. Cecil Beamish and Mr. Tony Burke, assistant secretaries; and Mr. Paul Dillon and Ms Brid Cannon, principal officers. The purpose of the meeting is to brief the joint committee on the Department's six-monthly progress report on developments in the European Union. Under the programme for Government, there is a commitment to invite Secretaries General to appear before committees. The joint committee is being briefed on the administrative priorities of the Department, with specific reference to customer service and plans to eliminate late payments.

I remind our guests that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or persons or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charge against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Mr. Moran to make his opening statement

Mr. Tom Moran

I thank the joint committee for the invitation to address it on the administrative priorities of the Department, with particular reference to customer service and plans to eliminate late payments and the key issues identified in the six-monthly progress report on developments in the European Union from July to December 2011.

On customer service and the elimination of late payments, taking account of the reduced financial and human resources available to the Department, we have made good progress on several fronts of interest to the committee and while not being complacent, we will continue to work to improve the service. On the matter of customer service, I wish to make several points on developments in the 12-month period 1 April 2011 to 31 March 2012.

Staff numbers in the Department fell by 194 or 5.5%, while staff numbers in non-commercial State agencies under the aegis of the Department fell by 166 or 9.2%. The Department has engaged in a local office reorganisation programme, under which 42 offices have been closed to the public. However, the establishment of 16 enhanced offices was completed on 20 May 2011. Since 2009 the programme has resulted in a reduction of 523 staff in local offices and the redeployment of 349 staff, 72internally and 277externally. This phase of the programme is well advanced and on schedule to be completed by the end of this year. The independent verification process undertaken as part of the review of the public service agreement has confirmed that the programme has yielded total savings of close to €80 million to date.

A major shared services scoping exercise has been completed and its findings are being implemented. The Department is providing full ICT infrastructure support on a shared services basis for the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. It has also agreed to provide the Department of the Taoiseach with a new ICT network on a shared services basis.

On the current farmers' charter and action plan, we are operating on the basis that it will stay in place until a new one is agreed to. I am of the view, and we have considered this, that it is preferable to delay discussions with the farming organisations on a new charter until we know the outcome of the Common Agricultural Policy reform negotiations, which I will deal with later. In the meantime the current charter is being followed.

Turning to the issue of late applications, payments worth in excess of €1.234 billion were made to 123,552 farmers under the 2011 single payment scheme. This averages €10,000 per farmer. In that scheme year, 1,700 farms lost out on €1.6 million in payments due to putting in unduly late applications or simply forgetting to put in an application. The closing date for receipt of applications has just been passed - it was 15 May for this year. There is a large amount of money to be lost and that underlines the need for all farmers to have a valid application in place by 15 May each year, as this application covers more than the single payment scheme. It also includes the disadvantaged areas scheme, the suckler cow welfare scheme, REPS, the grassland sheep scheme and others.

Why are there such severe penalties for late applications? An EU regulation lays down the detailed rules for the implementation of the single payment scheme concerning the application of penalties. It states that with the exception of cases of force majeure and exceptional circumstances, the submission of a late application after the relevant time will lead to a 1% reduction per working day in the amounts the farmer would get and if the delay amounts to more than 25 days the application will be considered inadmissible. That seems draconian and one may ask what is the Department doing to reduce the number of late applications.

Every opportunity is taken to publicise the need to put in a valid application before 15 May. For example, press releases are issued at intervals during the application period, in each case emphasising the closing date. There is widespread coverage of this in the farming press and weekly update stories are run in The Farmers’ Journal advising as to numbers of applications already submitted and emphasising the deadline in terms of the number of days to the closing date on a diminishing basis. The Department has developed a new system of text alerts and that was inaugurated during the 2012 application period. In excess of 90,000 farmers have their mobile telephone details registered with the Department and a series of text alerts was issued in the run up to the closing date advising the importance of the 15 May closing date. In addition, iNet, the Department’s on-line application facility, was further enhanced for 2012, with the introduction of an online mapping system option. Initially, farmers and their approved agents were attracted to iNet by the fact that it guaranteed immediate, verifiable receipt by the Department of their applications and, through the system of in-built validations, significantly reduced the numbers of errors that could be made and ultimately led to speedier payment. The ongoing success of the iNet facility can be measured in the fact that a record number of applications have been lodged online in 2012. Some 65,000 applications have been lodged and that represents an eight-fold increase since iNet was introduced in 2007. That is a huge success in terms of the rolling out IT for the benefit of farmers.

Farm inspections are always an issue of great discussion. The Department, in the context of delivering the single payment scheme, the disadvantaged areas scheme and other area-based schemes, is required to carry out annual inspections covering the eligibility of the land declared to draw down payments and cross-compliance to ensure compliance with EU regulatory requirements in the areas of public, animal and plant health, environment and animal welfare. These inspections are mandatory; there are certain minimum numbers and types of inspections that must take place annually.

Land eligibility checks must be carried out on 5% of all applications. These checks are carried out to verify that the actual area claimed in the application corresponds to the area farmed by the farmer and to ensure that any ineligible land or feature on that land are deducted. Up to two thirds of these inspections are carried out without a farm visit as the information is verified using remote sensing via satellite.

The rate of inspections for cross-compliance, that is, the measures that must be adhered to, is 1% of applicants to whom these apply. However, 3% of farmers must be inspected under the bovine identification and registration requirements and 3% of sheep and goat farmers must be inspected covering 5% of the flock. It is a regulatory requirement that land eligibility inspections must be finalised before any payments can issue to any farmer in the country. On the other hand, cross-compliance inspections take place throughout the year. The area payment inspections must be done first and that starts the process of payment.

In so far as advance notice of inspections is concerned, which is always the subject of great controversy, all inspections, in general, should be unannounced; however, the regulations allow the Department to give 14 days' notice for land eligibility and cross-compliance inspections other than those related to animal identification and registration, feed, food and animal welfare. For checks involving cattle identification and registration, the maximum advance notice is 48 hours provided the purpose of the inspection is not jeopardised. For the regulatory measures dealing with feed, food and animal welfare, no advance notice may be given; these must, under the regulations, take place on an unannounced basis. As a general rule and following requests from the farming organisations, and this makes sense, the Department tries to integrate inspections, including all of the cross-compliance inspection elements, with a view to minimising the number of farm visits and avoiding more than one visit to the farm. In respect of those elements of the inspection for which advance notice is not possible, the farmer has the option of deferring those particular elements up to 48 hours in the case of animal identification and up to 14 days in the case of eligibility. In most cases and given the practicality involved, the farmer opts to have all elements of the inspection carried out on the same day and we try to facilitate that.

Since all eligibility inspections must be carried out before payment, these inspections are prioritised in order that payments under the disadvantaged areas scheme can commence in mid-September and advance payments under the single payments scheme can commence in mid-October. In total, 11,900 farmers were inspected under the 2011 schemes, including some 4,500 who were inspected using remote sensing. In other words, 7,400 inspections involved an actual on-farm visit while some 130,000 farmers apply annually under these schemes. Officials from the Department have recently held very successful information meetings with farmers around the country to clarify the position and to make sure that everybody fully understands the process.

I also wish to stress the annual value of these schemes to Irish farmers. Direct payments are of critical importance to farmers and the Irish economy, of which this committee is well aware. Annually these payments amount to some €1.8 billion, of which €1.25 billion is accounted for by the single payment scheme. Under that scheme, total payments since 2005 have reached €9 billion. These payments have in five of the past six years commenced in mid-October and have generally been completed by the end of the same year. They have given farmers a stable guaranteed level of income during these challenging economic times. We pay considerably in advance of most, if not all, other member states. It is therefore incumbent on us in the Department to ensure that the regulatory controls are comprehensively implemented to protect the payments and to avoid substantial EU disallowances or clawback of the money, which are a constant feature of this single payment system.

Payments under the agri-environment schemes are well advanced. There are just more than 30,000 participants in REPS and more than 29,000 have received full payment in respect of 2011. There are outstanding queries in regard to 1,000 or so applicants who are still awaiting payment and I expect that the vast majority of these will be resolved and that the applicants will be paid in a matter of weeks.

A total of 8,773 valid applications were received under the agri-environment options, AEO, scheme and all but 636 have now been paid in respect of 2010 and almost 3,500 have been paid in respect of 2011. Under the EU regulations governing the scheme and other area-based schemes, a comprehensive administrative check of all applications, including cross-checks with the land parcel identification system, must be completed before any payment can issue. This is crucially important. Successive EU audits have made it very clear that compliance with the regulations must be strictly adhered to and that all administrative checks must be passed and eligibility conditions met before payment issues. As a result, the Department is obliged to ensure that individual payments do not issue until all aspects of a farmer's application are in order, all outstanding documentation is provided and all queries are resolved.

The outstanding payments under AEOS 1 remaining to be paid at this stage are the most complicated and difficult cases. The issues arising relate mostly to digitisation or to inaccurate or incomplete capital investment claims. The re-digitisation of land parcels is a particularly complex issue which can impact not only on the agri-environment application but also on the single payment scheme. It is important to ensure that the claims under both schemes correlate and do not conflict. Particular priority is being given to resolving cases from 2010 and I expect that the outstanding issues will be resolved in the next few weeks. In so far as 2011 payments are concerned, delays in payments are being caused due to a high level of queries on the capital investment claims submitted by farmers or by failure of large numbers of farmers to submit documented claims. Despite two letters and other reminders from the Department, many farmers have either failed to submit forms or have submitted incomplete or inaccurate forms.

A total of 6,895 applications were received under the scheme in 2011, AEOS 2, of which 6,616 applicants have been informed of their acceptance into the scheme. A substantial number have also been informed of, and asked to respond to, queries arising from their application forms. The administrative checks are well advanced for all AEOS 2 applications and I expect that payments will commence in June. Payments in respect of 2012 will commence later in the year.

The Department is acutely conscious of the importance of these payments to farmers' incomes and is making every effort to assist farmers in regularising their applications and claims for payment. Additional resources have been assigned to deal with queries and payments will continue to issue as quickly as possible as outstanding issues are resolved. The Minister is actively considering the possibility of re-opening AEOS to allow for the submission of applications either on an amended basis or from the existing scheme on a limited scale. He is looking, in particular, as he made clear in the Dáil, at the possibility of re-opening applications later in the year with a possible closing date for applications of the end of September and a commencement date for new participants of January 2013. A major consideration is funding and how the scheme can be funded within the expenditure ceiling for 2013 as set out in the Government's comprehensive expenditure report for 2012 to 2014.

The second element of the Chairman's letter to the Department related to the six monthly report. Moving on to developments in the EU, as the committee is aware there have been a number of important policy developments in the agrifood sector during 2011. Of most significance to Ireland was the publication by the Commission of proposals for reform of the Common Fisheries Policy in July 2011 and proposals for reform of the Common Agricultural Policy in October 2011. The CAP reform process is of particular importance in an Irish context and I am pleased to say that the Commission proposals are broadly in line with our national priorities for smart, green growth as set out in the Food Harvest 2020 strategy. Our priorities in the negotiations will be to deliver a well-resourced CAP; retain Ireland's share of CAP funds; maximise payment model flexibility for member states; ensure rural development policy supports competitiveness and sustainability; and keep the CAP as simple as possible and limit the costs and bureaucracy associated with implementing it.

The reform of the Common Fisheries Policy, CFP, is of equal importance to Ireland in achieving our overall goal of a sustainable, profitable and self-reliant fishing industry. The key issues for us in these negotiations will be transferable fishing concessions; discards; the application of maximum sustainable yield, MSY; regionalisation; and future funding. The Chairman and members will recall that the Minister, I and other senior officials have appeared before the committee on a number of occasions in recent times to update it on developments in these negotiations. Therefore, I do not propose to dwell too much on these topics - we can come back to them if the Chairman wishes - and I will concentrate on other aspects of our involvement at EU level.

The agrifood sector, in general, is a highly regulated one with a continuous flow of proposals being put forward. Since the Lisbon treaty, the majority of these proposals fall under the ordinary legislative procedure requiring agreement across the three EU institutions - the Council, the Commission and the Parliament. In a recent committee discussion on the CAP the MEPs were present. This adds a new dimension to the negotiation process and requires that the Department engage fully with all three institutions.

I wish to refer briefly to some of the proposals presented by the Commission during the latter part of 2011, which is the period under review, starting with the proposal to increase the annual quota for imports of high quality beef from the US into the EU. The proposal has been adopted by Council and agreed by Parliament and is awaiting final signature. We were not particularly happy with the increased quota but it resolved a long-standing dispute between the EU and the US and possibly paved the way for the publication of a draft revised US BSE rule in March 2012. As the committee is aware, EU beef does not currently have access to the US market due to the current BSE rule and we believe that this is an important step in a process which should allow for the resumption of Irish beef exports to the US. We believe the United States could be an important market - perhaps at the outset a niche one - for Irish beef. The fact that we are banned there is a source of concern that we are taking up with the US authorities.

During 2011, the Commission commenced the process of reviewing EU-wide promotional measures for agricultural products. The focus will be on the image of EU food on markets. We welcome the broad thrust of the Commission's views to date as it acknowledges the need to simplify the model and make it more workable. Also in the food sector, the Polish Presidency put in a major effort towards the end of December to find a compromise in the discussions on food for the needy. The main contentious issue with this dossier revolved around how the programme has evolved and how it should be financed. Agreement was finally reached at Council and by the Parliament in early 2012 resulting in the continuation of the programme with provision for a review on how it will work in the future.

We are now approaching the end of the Danish Presidency of the EU Council and the main focus of this six month Presidency has involved intense detailed negotiations on the CAP and CFP areas. It is widely expected that the conclusion of the negotiations on these important dossiers will fall under the remit of the Irish Presidency in the first six months of 2013. For this to happen it will be necessary for the next multi-annual financial framework to be agreed and it will also be necessary for the three institutions - the Commission, the Council and the European Parliament - to participate actively in the negotiations. I noticed an article this morning in the Irish Farmers’ Journal about a prominent member of the European Parliament, Mr. Joseph Daul, MEP, who spoke in this country last night. He made it clear that as far as he is concerned he does not envisage the Parliament agreeing anything definitive on the CAP before the budget has been agreed. As the committee is well aware, previous Irish Presidencies have been regarded as very successful and we will do our upmost to continue in that regard. A key element of a successful Presidency will be our level of preparedness. Our Presidency will be the first in a trio of Presidencies that we share with Lithuania and Greece. Preparations are well under way in the Department. My officials actively participate in the various preparatory bodies. In addition to the main reform packages, it is expected that the Commission will publish some major dossiers this year and early next year covering animal health law, animal welfare and a new plant health strategy. It will also examine the meat inspection aspect of food and feed law and carry out a review of the seeds package. Chairpersons have been identified for the various Council working groups that we anticipate will be convened and they are currently participating in training.

As the committee would expect, we have intensified our interaction with key players through numerous meetings with relevant Commission officials and key Parliament players particularly the rapporteurs for the major dossiers. The Minister, senior officials and I are engaged in ongoing meetings with our counterparts in other member states both to emphasise the issues of importance to Ireland and to gauge the issues of concern to them so that we can be well placed to facilitate compromise positions in order to conclude negotiations on as many dossiers as possible. A Council of Ministers meeting was held on Monday and Tuesday of this week where we took the opportunity to have a number of bilateral meetings on the edges of the Council. The Minister met with the incoming Cypriot Presidency which is preparing for its Presidency. We met with the Danish Presidency which will wrap up and take it to the next stage. We had meetings also with the Belgian Minister en marge seeking aspects of commonality, particularly on the distribution of direct payments. That is an ongoing process of which the Chairman will be well aware.

The six-monthly report provides the committee with a summary of the proposals published by the Commission during the Presidency term. The report highlights any major developments across the various sectors, particularly those that impact on Ireland. If the committee would like clarification on these or any other issues we will be happy to supply them.

I thank Mr. Moran for a comprehensive report on his Department's services, payments and so on as well as progress on the EU issue. I call Senator Ó Domhnaill.

I welcome the Secretary General, Mr. Moran, and his officials. I agree with the Chairman that they gave a comprehensive outline of the Department's function. It is important for the committee to meet with Mr. Moran and his officials, particularly given the importance of the agricultural and the agri-food sectors to our economy. One of the success stories within the economy is the work that has been done based on the objectives set out in the Food Harvest 2020 report and that we will increase our production of food that will feed up to 35 million or 36 million people in many other countries by 2020.

The Secretary General outlined the bigger European picture and the position on the negotiations on the Common Agricultural Policy and the Common Fisheries Policy, which are crucial to both the farming and the fisheries sectors here. Those negotiations can be fraught at times but on the fishing side some good news emerged this week on the transferable quotas issue on which agreement had been reached.

The key challenge on the agricultural side is the availability of the budget under the financial mechanism from Europe. While many of the technical negotiations are proceeding and the draft CAP has been published, it will all hinge on the multi-annual financial framework yet to be agreed. Given the current challenges facing Europe we hope that what we are anticipating will be available under that scheme will be available. It would be a positive development if the final conclusions to the new CAP were to take place during our Presidency.

There are excellent proposals in the new CAP on younger farmers in particular. If we examine take the entire farming position not only in Ireland but across Europe we can see that a large proportion of farmers are due to retire in the next ten to 15 years. It would be correct and proper to have incentives in place for younger farmers to try to incentivise younger people into the industry because it is an ageing industry and we must have younger people entering it, not only here but across Europe. There are incentives for younger farmers in that regard.

One of the shortcomings I note in that regard is that there is no retirement plan built into this new CAP in respect of farmers who may wish to exit farming. As members will be aware, farmers who are farming are often reluctant to leave the sector and therefore opportunities are not being created for the younger farmer. Some kind of incentive must be built in for older farmers who are continuing to farm but who may, upon being offered an incentive, leave and give an opportunity to younger farmers. There are opportunities in this sector but they must be ring-fenced for younger people. What are the witnesses thoughts on that and what can they, together with the Minister, do to try to champion that at a European level if they believe it is worthy to pursue? When the Commissioner came before the committee some time ago he stated, in answer to that question, that there was a poor uptake of the previous retirement scheme. That is correct but that was because the conditions of the previous scheme were prohibitive. That is something that must be taken into consideration.

On the payments being transferred to farmers across the country, it is fair to say that without those transfers agriculture would suffer greatly, particularly on non-viable farms and smaller farms in particular which meet regular challenges. I have some questions on that. Mr. Moran stated that retirements from the Department fell by 5.5% and mentioned the challenge that will present given the growth in the sector. Is it his view that we can meet the 2020 targets and the challenges that present with the reducing staff complement in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine?

In terms of the local or regional offices, there has been a reduction of 42 offices across the country. Mr. Moran stated 16 enhanced offices have been established which is correct. There has been a rationalisation of offices in my county of Donegal. There is one enhanced office in Raphoe, County Donegal, but unfortunately many of the staff are being asked to redeploy either to the Department of Social Protection or other sectors. That is a cause of concern for many farmers in Donegal and it will put additional pressure on the staff complement in that county. The same position is emerging in other counties, and it is contrary to what the Department is saying about keeping the same staff and beefing up the sector. It does not appear to make sense because this is a growth sector in the economy, yet the staff complement that had worked in the Department are being redeployed to other sectors and Departments.

Mr. Moran stated that a new charter will not be entered into until the new CAP is agreed. That makes sense but I have some questions in that regard. The inspections comprise a major issue, and Mr. Moran outlined it in his contribution. The inspections that took place in 2010 and 2011 resulted in significantly delayed payments for farmers. That is a major cause of concern given the challenging economic climate in which they live, increased feed and fertiliser costs and all that goes with that. What assurances can be given this year that any inspections carried out in 2012 will not result in similar late payments as occurred in 2010 or 2011?

On the payments under various schemes across the Department, whether it is single farm payment, the disadvantaged areas scheme, the rural environment protection scheme, the agri-environment options scheme or the other schemes, will they be paid as agreed under the farmers' charter this year because there have been delays in those payments? The offices in Portlaoise and in Johnstown Castle have been working efficiently but am I right in assuming that the staff working in those offices are under increasing pressure to deal with the volume of work they have? Would Mr. Moran agree that those staff need additional resources? Have significant overtime moneys been paid to staff? Should staff be redeployed within the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine rather than to other Departments? What are the views of the delegates on that?

Would it be possible to secure advance payment of the single farm payment from 16 October 2012? Has any formal approach been made to the European Commission in this regard? While it is early in the year, it must be acknowledged this question has been asked by farmers, particularly those who are struggling at present.

With regard to the disadvantaged areas payment, a submission has been made to the European Commission on the budgetary changes announced in regard thereto. Can the Department confirm that all these payments will be paid in September of this year? Those affected are the most disadvantaged farmers. Could we have an update on the negotiations with the European Commission? Has the Commission signalled it is willing to accept the proposals of the Department?

The AEOS is in place of REPS. It is not an ideal scheme, as I am sure the Department will acknowledge. It was put in place because of jealousy at European level over how good the REP scheme was working in Ireland. There are 636 outstanding payments for 2010. The scheme's criteria are too rigid. I know of a farmer who, through no fault of his own, planted a broadleaf hedgerow in the wrong field. He spent over €10,000 planting the hedgerow, yet, due to the technical criteria of the scheme, he will be financially penalised for it. That is not right. The farmer took out a loan to carry out the work. The scheme is too rigid.

There were 27 appeals under the scheme for the entire 12 months of 2011. Up to the end of April 2012, 16 appeals were made under the AEOS. A further 42 appeals have been made in respect of the organic farming scheme. This results in a total of almost 60 appeals in four months of this year, compared to 27 appeals for the whole of 2011. If this trend continues, there will be approximately 250 appeals this year. This indicates that there is something wrong with the manner in which the scheme is operating.

The Secretary General indicated in his presentation that the constraints are coming from the European Commission. That is correct but the Department needs to go back to the Commission and state it has difficulties operating the scheme and that it requires more flexibility. There ought to be more of a common-sense approach. Perhaps the Department should meet all the agricultural consultants, be they in Teagasc or independent, to talk to them about the implementation of the scheme. From speaking to agricultural consultants in the west, I note they have many simple suggestions that could be taken on board. Perhaps the Department will consider this.

Only 50% of those who have applied have got a payment for 2011. Is there not some way in which the payments can be made sooner? I acknowledge there are difficulties, which the Department outlined, but the farmers are waiting on the payments. They depend on them to keep their enterprises alive and active.

I thank the officials for attending.

I apologise for my late arrival. I had another meeting that I had to attend this morning. I thank the officials for attending. I appreciate the staff in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. Whenever my office contacts the Department about the payment of grants, we are always greeted with great courtesy and there is good follow-up action. I previously worked in the public service and know how busy people are. I know about the impact of the moratorium on staff recruitment. My office and I are treated very well.

There is a problem in regard to grants. I am not sure it lies solely with the Government or the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. However, when 1,700 farms are losing out on €1.6 million in payments, there is something wrong. The whole system needs to be simplified. I am not sure it is a question of simply getting information out on time. Many farmers do not know what to do. This is also the case with many farm advisers. This scheme is too complex. I am a great believer in making it easy for people to do the right thing but I am not sure this scheme supports that principle.

I agree with Senator Ó Domhnaill that we need to be talking to the European Union to try to streamline and simplify the scheme, and to make the needed cheques available. It should be made easy for people to do the right thing.

Some 1,700 farms lost out on €1.6 million in payments owing to unduly late applications. That is very difficult to understand. The role of advisers needs to be considered because I am aware that several farmers left it in the hands of their advisers to submit the forms on time. They trusted the advisers but the forms were not submitted on time. There seems to be no means of redress against the advisers, who are mainly private. There should be a register of advisers and a very simple procedure for farmers to notify the Department when advisers are at fault in the late submission of application forms. I know of one adviser who sent in a number of late applications and had the unmitigated cheek to charge the farmers for the service. This should not occur.

In my part of the country, there was a staffing shortage in the office in Drumshambo. In fairness to the Minister, when there was a backlog of applications he arranged an emergency transfer to the office of two key staff, possibly supervisors, to clear it. The backlog, however, should not arise in the first place.

I would like the officials to talk about the effects of the recruitment moratorium. Is morale good or bad in the Department? Are we reaching the point where it is simply impossible to process the amount of work required with the number of staff available? Are we recreating further problems down the line?

In the Department of Social Protection, it seems to be the norm to refuse applicants in the expectation that they will appeal if they believe they are really entitled to benefits. Is there a risk of this occurring within the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine? Is there a risk that there will be a ten-month delay in hearing appeals? Given the copious amount of information available to the Department, the number of farm visits needs to be reviewed. While I understand this must be done according to European Union regulations, I agree with Senator Ó Domhnaill that we must engage with the EU to make the scheme workable. I am unsure whether this is the case at present, particularly given the reduced staffing levels.

I remind members we must vacate this room by 11.15 a.m. Consequently, I ask all those who wish to contribute to get through their questions as quickly as possible.

I thank the departmental officials for their attendance and their detailed report. A couple of points struck me. First, I refer to the detail regarding the fall in staff numbers within the Department. There has been a reduction in the Department itself of 5.5%, while the comparable figure in the non-commercial State agencies is 9.2%. Given the recent appearance of Teagasc before the joint committee, the representatives of which were strongly of the view it has reached a critical point in its ability to act functionally in the manner expected of it, is the Department satisfied with the proportion of reductions between the Department and the non-commercial State agencies? Does the Secretary General have a view on the present position within Teagasc? Obviously, the savings of approximately €80 million are to be welcomed.

As for late applications, I seek detailed information on how many farmers have incurred penalties over the past two or three years, with particular regard to land eligibility and cross compliance. It is a yearly trend discernible in respect of penalties? How many inspections have taken place to date under the targeted agricultural modernisation schemes, TAMS? As a farmer myself who receives text messages, I congratulate the Department on that initiative. I note that 1,700 farms have lost out on payments of €1.6 million. However, while any money lost is to be greatly regretted, when one takes into account the amount of money with which the Department is dealing, it does not constitute a huge percentage of the total. Moreover, there is only so much one can do in trying to ensure farmers submit the forms on time. However, the text message service definitely is a step that catches up with modern technology, which I welcome.

On the issue of advance notice, I note the Secretary General stated all inspections should be unannounced but acknowledged the regulations allow for the Department to give notice. When regulations allow the Department to give notice, is such an allowance adhered to? I refer to both the 14 days' notice for eligibility and cross compliance and the maximum of 48 hours' notice for cattle identification and registration. Mr. Moran stated both that inspections should be unannounced and that such permission to notify is in place. In circumstances in which the Department is allowed to give notice, such notice should be given because it is very difficult for farmers, particularly those who farm part-time and so on, to try to work around unannounced inspections. Consequently, on a practical level, where allowances can be given, hopefully this is the case. On the agri-environment options scheme, AEOS, I note Mr. Moran's comment to the effect the Minister is giving consideration to future funding for the scheme. I would be interested to hear the Secretary General's views regarding the capacity to find funding for a new AEO scheme and the challenges that exist in this regard. The joint committee has done a lot of work in respect of the Common Agricultural Policy and the different roles. It will be the first issue for everyone involved in the agricultural sector over the next number of months. Everyone agrees with delivering a well-resourced CAP, retaining Ireland's share of the CAP and maximising flexibility. These are the first three points mentioned in the presentation and in order of priority, they are key.

The presentation deals in depth with the challenges regarding the future role of the Irish Presidency and I am cognisant of the challenges that will place on the Department. However, I seek the Secretary General's views on whether he views the Presidency as giving Ireland a stronger position from a strategic point of view. There is a view abroad that it could be advantageous for Ireland to hold the Presidency next year, as the deal is concluding. I again seek Mr. Moran's views in this regard and on how Ireland can maximise any such potential advantage. As for the Commission's proposals, Mr. Moran referred to the publication of the draft revised US BSE rule last March. As Ireland probably would be the biggest benefactor of all European countries, were there to be a resumption in Irish and European Union beef exports to the United States, I seek the Secretary General's views on the likelihood of this happening and on how we could maximise potential in this regard. I note his comments that such exports would tend to be on the high-quality end but any new market for the beef industry would be greatly welcomed. What efforts are being taken by officials in this regard?

Finally, I will turn to an issue not dealt with in the presentation, namely, recent media reports regarding 59 veterinary inspectors who have retired but who have been retained by the Department. Can Mr. Moran confirm they are acting as temporary veterinary inspectors, as opposed to veterinary officers, who are permanent? In overall terms, what human resources shortages exist within the Department at present? How does the Department fill those vacancies that are of critical nature and which must be filled? How many, if any, temporary veterinary inspectors had been signed up to the panel over the past 18 months?

The order I have to hand of members who wish to contribute is Deputy Deering, followed by Deputy McNamara and Senators Comiskey and O'Neill. We will get through those contributions before handing back to the witnesses.

Like previous speakers, I welcome the Secretary General before the joint committee and compliment him on his fine presentation. I wish to raise a couple of issues. One is a subject the Secretary General acknowledged as always creating some controversy, namely, farm inspections with regard to cross-compliance. This issue has come to my attention in my constituency recently as an additional number of cross-compliance farm inspections appear to have taken place in the general Carlow area. The perception is that such inspections have targeted larger farm payment recipients because, as the Secretary General is aware, farmers are liable for a percentage payment penalty, be it for a smaller case or otherwise. For example, I recently encountered a case in which the farmer submitted the dates of birth of his calves a week outside the actual date but yet he incurred a penalty that would equate to €4,000. Such farmers have made the point to me that the system should be similar to the penalty points system that operates on roads. Should there be a specific penalty, perhaps of €100, for a specific offence, as opposed to the blunt instrument whereby one incurs a percentage cut straight across the board? Can this issue be addressed because it appears to be very unfair? In the particular case to which I referred, a farmer incurred a €4,000 penalty, which constitutes a substantial amount of money, albeit coming from a large amount in the first instance, and that significantly affects cash flow.

Moreover, a certain number of farmers appear to be targeted each year. Without being parochial about it, I know of one individual who has undergone a cross-compliance inspection each year for the past five years, which appears over the top in the general scheme of things. One must wonder why this might be the case or whether there is a specific reason for that particular case. I do not seek to personalise this issue but as the Secretary General himself noted, this issue creates a lot of hassle and is one about which one must be more farmer friendly.

In addition, I refer to the notifications farmers receive periodically. An issue also arises when an inspector comes on-site to discuss matters with the farmer and informs the farmer that everything is in order, only for the latter to receive notification of a penalty eight to nine weeks later. I seek clarification in this regard because a degree of anxiety always is present. Farmers always are unsure as to when the inspectors are coming in the first instance and obviously try to ensure everything is in order when inspectors do come. Thereafter, however, farmers are unsure for some time after the inspection. Obviously, one would hope that when an inspector tells a farmer everything is in order on foot of an inspection, everything should be in order. However, if one receives notification a number of weeks later that there is a problem, it causes a lot of hassle down the line.

The Secretary General mentioned the CAP and members have discussed it at length in recent weeks. I will not get into great detail but all are agreed on the main issues that affect Ireland, be it the greening, the reference year and the flat rate payment. The greening issue is increasingly coming to the fore. The amount of bureaucracy in the system in recent years was mentioned. Are alliances being built up between the Department and our colleagues abroad to try to ensure that such issues can be dealt with in a less bureaucratic manner? If so, we could access things much more easily. In addition, flexibility will be a key issue in future as it will be easier to distribute the funds we get.

I welcome the points made about the potential AEOS scheme for the coming year. There has been much talk about the funds for it recently and hopefully that will come to pass.

As regards the closure of local departmental offices, we are where we are, to use a commonly used phrase. Has there been any knock-on effect from office closures? Generally speaking, the age profile of farmers is, unfortunately, higher than it should be. Farmers like to be able to access their own local office if they have cards to be signed, but it can be difficult if they have to travel for a long period. Has that been an issue? In my own area, the Carlow office has been closed for quite a while. Enniscorthy is the nearest office, which means some farmers must travel for 60 or 90 minutes for that specific purpose.

Information technology has become a big issue in recent times and I welcome the initiatives in that regard. Given the age profile of the farmers we are talking about, however, they would not be sitting at a computer every morning to get a password to access whatever information is required; they need to visit an office to deal with such matters. If that is an issue, can the system be streamlined in any particular way in future?

I wish to pick up on Deputy Heydon's remarks on recent publicity concerning over 50 vets who were taken on for specific purposes after retiring at the end of February. Is it necessary for veterinary surgeons to do those jobs, or could they be allocated to technical staff within the Department in conjunction with vets who are currently there?

I thank Mr. Moran for his excellent presentation.

It is now 14 months since I was elected to the Dáil, and I wish to raise a couple of matters individually. Obviously there have been delays in payments, but in County Clare in particular I have noticed delays in payments for the Burren life project. It seems that there is an administrative bottleneck in that farmers are encountering particular delays in the payment of funds. This innovative and pioneering project is laudable and does not deserve to be subject to such delays.

As an active farmer who was formerly in the REPS 3 scheme, which has now closed, I have to declare a certain interest in the AEOS scheme. When will the AEOS scheme be reopened? Will it be for all applicants or, as is rumoured, merely applicants in SACs and SPA areas? Is there a legal obligation on the State to compensate farmers in SAC or SPA areas? It is my understanding that there is an obligation under EU law to do so. It is therefore not an option for the Government or the Department to fail to reopen it for those particular applicants. If general applicants are not being accepted, will applicants be accepted in proposed SACs and SPAs?

As regards the closure of departmental offices, as Mr. Moran will know, the office in Ennis was among those closed to the public. Nonetheless there are departmental officials still working in that office, although the shutters are down to the public. The office is relatively near the mart and there have been proposals from the IFA that some of the officials currently working there could at least make their way all of four miles to Ennis mart to provide a clinic for farmers. It is a 70-mile one-way trip from the Loop Head peninsula to Limerick where the nearest public office is located.

I wonder whether coming in here listening to soliloquies from Deputies and Senators is a useful use of senior departmental officials' time. I welcome the fact that there are six of them here, but they have been listening now for an hour on a Thursday morning. Senators and Deputies have been away from their families and friends for a while and they are looking for somebody to talk to, preferably a captive audience like themselves. I wonder, however, if it is necessary to have six senior officials here for a full hour.

How does one follow that?

I welcome all the officials and have no difficulty in listening to them. I am pleased that I might be able to get some additional information from them. It is good to have them here and I wish to thank Mr. Moran for his presentation. A number of issues have already been covered but it is important to ensure that we will have the CAP budget into the future. I suppose it will be agreed during Ireland's EU Presidency next year. The rural development budget is aligned to that and is therefore most important also.

A good case has been made with regard to looking after young farmers. Farmers who wish to retire or who want to establish a partnership with younger farmers should be encouraged to do so. Something must be done to encourage older farmers in that regard because the age profile is unbalanced with far too many older farmers.

A special case must be made for farmers who have been working since the last regime in 2002 and have very low entitlements, or none. They have to be looked after and the AEOS scheme is important in that respect. We have had a rural environmental protection scheme for the last 18 years. It would be a pity if we moved forward without having such a scheme in future.

Will it be possible to have an advance payment from the single farm payment this year? If so, is the Department making provision for that? Will all of the disadvantaged area payment be paid out in September 2012? It is important to keep the money coming for farmers.

Can Mr. Moran confirm when the AEOS payments due for 2010 and 2011 will be paid? I know Mr. Moran touched on that in his presentation when he said the 2010 ones are being cleared. It is important to proceed, however, as there have been major delays.

Can Mr. Moran confirm the number of farmers who are exiting the AEOS scheme? Some farmers may have got fed up waiting for late payments, which would be a pity. Does he have much information on that point?

Can the Department confirm the budgetary allocation in the 2011 book of Estimates for the various schemes, and the payments made in that calendar year? Mr. Moran referred to an underspend of €1.6 million, but can that be carried over to 2012, thus taking pressure off the budget? Are efforts being made to avoid that underspend recurring this year?

In the interests of openness and transparency, can the Department provide on its website monthly details of payments across all farm schemes on a county-by-county basis? Is this information already collated by the Department and, if so, can it be made available to us? People should know what is happening every month.

I thank Mr. Moran and his departmental officials for attending the joint committee. Last week, I met with officials of Kilkenny IFA. The previous week, chairpersons of all the IFA county executives had travelled on a fact-finding mission to Italy and Germany. There they met representatives of farm organisations, as well as inspecting farms. I will not go into the specifics of what they saw happening on farms in both countries, but they did say that some of those farming practices would be considered mortal sins in Ireland. Yet I thought we were all governed by the same rules under the CAP and cross-compliance regulations. People feel we are over-regulated, over-inspected and that we enforce every letter of the law.

I can imagine what it was like last Wednesday when dealing with the applications for the single farm payment. When an online application comes in, does the Department actually print that off and put it on file or is it just left there on computer to be examined later on? With fewer staff, online applications make more sense.

No matter what is said, inspections are a stress for a farmer because he does not know how it will affect his livelihood or cash flow for that year. Sometimes it is almost a mystery as to whether a farmer will receive a payment. For example, I had an inspection three years ago unannounced. I was at a county council meeting when I got a telephone call asking me how many animals were in such and such a field. This was crazy. When a stranger comes on a farm, animals can get stressed and take off. I see now livestock inspections must have 48 hours' notice. If a farmer is not available, there should be no livestock inspections as animals are more used to their owners.

Last year, the single farm payments started on 16 October and went on for a month. Farmers who were not even inspected did not know when they were going to get their payment. I accept the Department has fewer staff and has sent out text messages about applications in the past. However, can a system be put in place whereby a letter, an e-mail or a text can be sent to an individual farmer informing him of the date of his payment?

I have raised the matter of beef imports from the US before at this committee and the Seanad. Are they definitely hormone-free?

Mr. Tom Moran

I will begin with the most colourful question from Deputy McNamara. It was a straight-up question so it will get a straight-up answer. No, we do not mind attending the committee. We always find the discussions that go on at this committee exceptional and very useful for us. Much of what is said here are comments rather than just questions. The committee can rest assured those comments are noted and where there are suggestions, we will be acting on them.

The attendance of Mr. Moran and his officials is very much appreciated. We cannot have it both ways and be critical of not having the officials. I would take Deputy McNamara's comments in the way he gave them.

Mr. Tom Moran

The issue of incentivising young farmers and assisting retiring farmers was raised by Senator Ó Domhnaill. There is no provision in the revised rural development plans for retirement schemes for farmers because the Commission believes they are not always the most efficient. Ireland had an early farm retirement scheme which is still operating and it worked grand. It was one of the schemes which had to fall by the wayside, however, when there was funding pressure.

One needs to turn it around and focus on incentivising young farmers, which is strongly supported by us in the CAP negotiations. I would love to claim some credit for it but it is not entirely the Department's credit. The agrifood sector has started to go up in people's minds to where it should be, particularly in a country like Ireland. In turn, there is a natural incentive for that churn to take place. If young people want to go into this sector, there is now an economic incentive to do so. There is a buzz about agriculture now which is seen with the significant increase in applications for and attendance at agricultural colleges. Along with this, if farm incomes rise, people will see a future in farming and the agrifood sector. This acts as incentive for those entering farming which automatically feeds on to those who may want to move on. A whole series of adjustments were made to the taxing regime in the budget to incentivise the handing on and restructuring of farms.

There was much comment about the rehiring of departmental staff, in particular vets. I welcome the opportunity to clarify this matter. Since the 1970s, we have outsourced the inspection of factories using private veterinary inspectors. These are vets who work in practices and it has been an efficient way of implementing our veterinary inspections at factories which we are legally obliged to do. We have a panel of 1,400 registered vets who can be drawn off a roster by factories in their localities. They stand on the line doing the regulatory checks on the Department's behalf under the control of an official vet who is also lodged in the factory.

In the past, it has been a tradition that certain vets who would have retired from the Government's veterinary service could become part of that panel and be drawn as part of that outsourcing. In the past 18 months, we have not tended to draw people down who were previously employed as veterinary inspectors in the Department. Describing it as re-employing someone who just retired under the recent retirement incentive scheme is a misapprehension. The Department has seen a significant reduction in staff, 30% since 2005, and has downsized dramatically. At the same time, we are going through a period of great challenge with a significant amount of extra work, not just on the EU side but also with the rejigging of schemes, the CAP reforms, etc. In certain limited situations, it may arise. It arose in one case where we reappointed somebody who had retired under the scheme subject to a pension abatement so that there is no gain and the person is not getting any more than he or she would have done. We must make that judgment from time to time.

We must try to ensure, with greatly reduced resources and greatly increased demands, that we manage and we are quite confident of managing it. We have an excellent staff complement in the Department. The staff the committee sees here are some of the bosses but we have excellent staff throughout the country doing fabulous work. I think we are doing excellent work. If, from time to time, as in the case that is in the newspaper today, we did have to do that, we must make that decision in conjunction with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to keep matters right. It is merely a point worth making.

On the questions on the closure of local offices, that has been a challenge for us to do but it is the right thing to do. We have done it in consultation with all those involved and there has not been any down-side in terms of the service that we have been able to provide. Our staff have been extremely flexible on it. We have redeployed some of the staff from those local offices into other areas of the Department where there was greater demand and in other cases, we have been able to make some staff available to other Departments, such as the Department of Justice and Equality - we are looking at the Garda vetting office - and the Department of Social Welfare where, as the committee will be aware, there was a surge in demand for resources. In fairness, we have demonstrated by and large a flexibility in trying to manage a modern public service in a changing environment. I think we have succeeded in it and there has been no particular down-side to it.

With regard to the Department's overtime payments, from time to time we would pay a certain amount of overtime but it has come down dramatically. I do not want to give a figure in case it is wrong but it has come down dramatically in the past number of years. From time to time, there would be a peak on a scheme, for example, when we were grappling with the AEOS situation where it was difficult in changing over from REPS to a very complex scheme and we have had to use overtime, but we have by and large not used overtime to make up for the reduction in staff. What we have done is capitalise on the IT developments in which we have invested over the years.

On the advanced payment, which a number of Deputies and Senators mentioned, it is early days. In the past, on the vast majority of occasions the single payment has been paid on an advanced payment basis from 16 October. Ireland is probably among the first, if not the first, to pay the single payment and other countries do not pay it until a good deal later in the year. That significant job of work is always something on which I would always compliment my staff.

As far as the carry-over of funding is concerned, if one takes EU and Exchequer funding separately, there are certain rules set down on Exchequer funding. As the committee knows better than I do, the funding voted in a year must be spent in a year unless there is provision under the financial procedures for a carry-over, as there is on the capital side, approved by the Department of Finance. There is no such provision on the current side and funding that is not spent in a year falls to go back to the Exchequer.

On the EU side, it is different. If one does not spend single payment funding in a particular year, it rolls on into the next year. It goes back to the national reserve and it is still spent.

On the delay in payments, like members I fully understand that recipients lose €1.6 million in funding by not having their claim in. That is strictly set down in EU rules. There is nothing we can do about it. What we can do is provide incentives, we can telephone, we can talk to them and we can text. We use every trick in the book to ensure that the single payment date is not missed by claimants. There are dates in the various parts of the public service that are important, such as the CAO dates. There are dates that the clients must observe. In agriculture, there is a percentage reduction for each day after that date for a month. If somebody missed a day, there is a 1% reduction per day after that. It is difficult to understand why the clients would miss it. Personally, I would rather if not a single cent was lost on that basis but there is not much we can do on it.

On the question of inspections, which ran through many of the comments, this is something at which we have looked repeatedly. We do a huge amount of interaction with the clients and with consultants and we offer training, etc. On the inspections on the ground, we do what is required under EU law, and the way we are required to do it. We cannot get into a situation where we are taking risks with EU funding that is given to us to implement and apply but subject to conditions. Every euro of EU funding that one spends is subject to EU audit, and they send over their teams. If the teams are not happy with any particular aspect of the way one spends, controls or inspects and if they go out to inspect - we have them over all the time and recently we had them over wandering through commonages in a particularly wet county looking at whether the eligible features on the land are properly applied - one is constantly subject to disallowance or claw-back from the €1.3 billion. There is a league table and a list of countries with the amount of funding that has been taken back. We are at the bottom of that and one of the primary concerns in financial management in the Department is to stay as close to that level as possible. There always will be a certain amount of claw-back but what we do not want is to take any risks that entails a considerable claw-back of funding.

Whereas we fully understand the position and we, more than any Department, would understand exactly what farmers think about inspection - it is not nice to have to be inspected - we do it with as much sensitivity as we can. We are currently working with the farmer organisations to ensure that there is an understanding of what is required. That is all I can say. From time to time, there will be difficulties because when there are penalties they must be applied. One does not have the discretion about what penalties to apply. They are set down. One might think that if an inspector went in and he saw something on a farm that he did not like, he would have total discretion. That is not the case. What must be done is fairly concretely set down.

AEOS is, by definition, a complex scheme. It was a change from REPS, which was a whole-farm scheme. AEOS, as the name suggests, is an options scheme. There is a menu on it. Farmers choose options and they have to deliver them. If they do not deliver then they cannot get paid because it is based on the individual environmental options that they choose. It has been a difficult enough scheme to set up because it was so different. We have made a significant amount of progress. Our team in Wexford, from where it is paid, have done Trojan work on it.

As I stated earlier, I suspect that those who have not yet been paid on AEOS 1 are either not participating or not responding to us. On the second aspect, the issue that probably predominates is that applicants have not sent in receipts for capital expenditure on farms as part of the AEOS and we cannot pay until we get those. We have been urging them to respond and have written out two or three times to them.

There were a number of other points. The US beef market is a high priority for us. We do not like being banned from a beef market in the world. We probably have among the best and safest beef in the world. It is not a satisfactory position. It is a high priority of the Minister. He is going to the United States in June and it is something which he will be raising. We are engaging on a technical level with the US consultation process on beef. Any beef that comes into the EU is certified as hormone free. The number of inspections is set down. Two thirds are conducted remotely and notice is always given. Cross-compliance inspections are based on the criteria we must meet.

The Minister has made his position clear on what is known as next AEOS. We are currently conducting a detailed review of Department expenditure to determine our funding situation. The situation will then be made clear in the context of the Estimates and the amount of money available in coming years. We are living within the expenditure ceiling set down in the programme and if we proceed with the scheme the money will have to be found within those restrictions.

The question of penalties arises regularly. The total amount in penalties under the single payment and disadvantaged areas schemes was €8.8 million. Approximately €5.3 million of this related to land eligibility, €1.8 million is related to cross-compliance and €700,000 is related to REPS.

All advisers are trained by the Department before a scheme opens and they are required to be qualified and registered. Most advisers submit their forms electronically.

I have noted the points members made on greening. Alliances will definitely be developed as CAP negotiation proceeds. In a Union of 27 member states, much of the negotiation takes place on the margins or outside of the main forum. The Department's officials, the Minister and I are concentrating on bilateral arrangements with member states and the Parliament. We are making some progress within the Council and we are also working with the Parliament in the context of its co-decision powers. We are beginning to make the Commission at least take account of the views expressed on greening. As members will be aware, the two major issues arising in respect of greening is the flat rate, which is related to the other issue of redistribution, and the specific criteria for the scheme.

A theme which ran through all members' comments was simplification of bureaucracy. We could not agree more with members' comments. We are wedded to the idea of simplification. We have embarked on a simplification process alongside approximately 20 other countries to ensure the new CAP is as simple as possible not only for farmers but also for administrators. As we do not have unlimited resources for administration, we need systems that are simple, clear and transparent. Such a system would allow for a better CAP to be developed. We are at the head of the posse in pushing that objective.

I am grateful for Deputy Colreavy's comments on the ability of staff to work under pressure. That is a view I would share. There is no question that the recruitment ban has an effect but we believe we are managing change effectively by dint of reform and modernisation through greater use of information technology. It is putting great pressure on us but we are happy to meet the challenge. That is our job.

I will take account of all members' comments and I apologise if I have missed anything.

I asked about AEOS and whether there is a legal obligation to pay compensation. Perhaps that is a matter on which Mr. Moran will need to take advice.

Mr. Tom Moran

There is no legal obligation to have an environmental scheme. It is part of the rural development menu for EU funding. Commonage framework plans and stocking reduction are matters for the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht.

When we previously met Mr. Moran in October none of the farmers sitting here had received a single farm payment. All of us have been paid since then, however.

How much has been lost in EU funding because of late and invalid applications or compliance issues?

In light of our time constraints I ask that Mr. Moran revert to individual members on questions of this nature.

Mr. Tom Moran

I would be delighted to do so.

A number of questions have not yet been addressed, including the Book of Estimates and whether payments made in the calendar year put pressure on subsequent budgets.

Mr. Tom Moran

I answered that. If a Department has an Exchequer liability in one year, it must be paid in the subsequent year but it is not carried over. The Vote has to provide for it in the next year. EU funding can be carried over, however.

I ask Mr. Moran to revert to the committee secretariat on the question of putting payments by county on the website.

Mr. Tom Moran

Yes.

I thank Mr. Moran and his officials for their comprehensive presentation and for answering members' questions.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.20 a.m. until 2 p.m on Tuesday, 22 May 2012.
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