Skip to main content
Normal View

JOINT COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC REGULATORY AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 27 Apr 2010

Cost of Regulation to Business: Discussion with ISME.

ISME is with us today to discuss the cost of regulation to business, in particular to small to medium enterprises, with a view to reducing cost. I would also like to hear the views of ISME on the performance of the relevant regulators and on the effectiveness of the consultation procedure. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Mark Fielding, chief executive.

I draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I ask Mr. Fielding to make his presentation.

Mr. Mark Fielding

I thank the committee for the opportunity to meet and to discuss the many obstacles that currently exist for enterprise in Ireland today. As the chief executive of ISME, the Irish Small and Medium Enterprises Association, I note we are the independent body representing owner-managers of small and medium businesses in Ireland. Our members constitute more than 98% of all business entities in Ireland, numbering more than 240,000, and employ just under 1 million people.

Our concerns and observations are primarily focused on SMEs and, in particular, owner-managers, the risk takers in the economy. Proper recognition of the entrepreneurs' contribution to the economy is long overdue. I wish to touch on the role of SMEs in the economy, the consultation or lack of same and I request the State to "think small first". I also wish to raise the proportionality of the burdens that are specific to the SMEs.

Small businesses play an important role in the economy and society and are at the centre of the social model. In general, owner-managers are more responsible towards their employees and more integrated into local society. They play an important role in stabilising society and have a bridge-building function between workers and capital.

On consultation, while at official level Irish-owned enterprise is praised for its important economic contribution, in reality, enterprise is increasingly stifled with wholly excessive and expanding bureaucracy and regulatory regimes. Decisions that add significant costs to small firms are made without consulting the sector. Talking to IBEC, the big business organisation, is not consulting the SME sector. Chambers Ireland is dominated by big business and the banks and the Small Firms Association is a division of IBEC, doing what it is told by big business, banks and semi-State organisations. ISME is the only truly independent representative body for SMEs. We are independent of big business, big unions, banks and big Government. ISME is owned and run by entrepreneurs and owner-managers for owner-managers. We respectfully request that the consultation on SME matters include ISME. As part of that, I thank the committee for the invitation to attend today.

SMEs have a major role in rescuing, revitalising and helping recovery in the country over the coming years. ISME believes we can do this as long as the correct environment is created. One of the major parts of that environment is the regulatory regime, of which this committee has oversight.

The key objectives for an agenda for recovery through entrepreneurship in Ireland must be to place entrepreneurs and their requirements at the centre of policy making. I respectfully request that legislators consciously take a "think small first" approach when drawing up new policies and legislation. This approach will have a direct benefit for 98% of businesses in Ireland and will manifest itself in greater productivity and job creation.

Much of Government policy in the social, fiscal and economic policy areas is deliberated upon without due consideration being given to the impact upon competitive enterprises, the vast majority of which are small or medium in size. In spite of acknowledgements concerning the role and function of competitive SMEs, our legislators and administrators generally have little concept of the demands they place upon these small businesses. The full implications of this must be viewed in the context that in excess of nine out of ten enterprises employ fewer than ten people but are still regulated as if they were employers of thousands, with all the attendant paraphernalia of HR, taxation, research and development, health and safety and compliance departments. In a small business, the owner-manager is the HR, taxation, research and development, health and safety and compliance department. The full amount of work falls on his or her shoulders.

It is important to recognise that while there are costs associated with regulation, the impact and burden of regulatory compliance is not spread proportionately, with the impact much more onerous on smaller business. For example, several UK studies have confirmed that the average compliance costs fall as business size increases. It is estimated that small businesses in the UK with two employees spend over six hours per month per employee on government regulation and paperwork, while those with more than 50 employees spend less than two hours per employee. Separately, in another study, the OECD has estimated that the regulatory burden on businesses with fewer than 20 staff is five times greater than that on business with more than 50 staff. Another OECD report shows that in excess of 4% of turnover is expended on meeting onerous regulatory burdens in small and medium businesses.

To comply with legislation and regulations in Ireland, small business owners are forced to read, understand and implement almost 1,000 different major legislative items that impact on their businesses in areas including taxation, industrial relations, health and safety and environmental issues. Together with the amount of legislative reading, small businesses are expected to complete 110 — 111 as of this morning — core forms per annum to comply with the requirements of many State bodies, including the Revenue Commissioners, the CSO, the Companies Registration Office and several Departments. Many of these forms need to be filled out several times, including tax compliance forms, which take account of all employees, and a number of mandatory returns, and the number of questions per form can vary from ten up to 100 in some of the CSO forms. Most, if not all, of these forms contain a threat of prosecution, including heavy fines and jail for non-compliance. While ISME agrees regulations and legislation have an important role to play, there needs to be a proper assessment before decisions are taken that impact on the business community.

There is a general level of increased regulation and criminalisation of owner-managers and company directors with regard to the Health and Safety Authority, the National Employment Rights Authority, the Director of Corporate Enforcement, Revenue, the Environmental Protection Agency and so on. Owner-managers are now seen as guilty until proven innocent. There is also a "one size fits all" attitude to legislation in most instances. There is much to be done as a matter of priority before Irish businesses become completely immersed in paperwork.

While we commend the work being done by the high level group on business regulation under the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, there is more work to be done and more resources should be placed at its disposal. If I read it correctly, there is just one person looking after it in the Department and it pulls in other people as required. For such a massive amount of regulation in Ireland and given the 25% reduction that is required and which the Government has set as a target, I would have thought more than one person should be part of that resource.

While we talk about reasonable regulation, which is a vital part of the economic, business and social life of the country, the fact that the entire banking system has had to be guaranteed by the taxpayer, with one bank nationalised and two more on the brink, and all receiving billions of euro from taxpayers, is a salutary lesson in light regulation proving to be inadequate in dealing with the lying bankers and leading to regulatory failure. They have done untold damage to the argument on light regulation for SMEs. While everyone agrees that more relevant and stiffer regulation must be imposed on the banks, and Mr. Elderfield and Professor Honohan seem to have made a good start, it is imperative that this regulation is overseen by, and benchmarked against, international comparators. The history of banks and bankers in Ireland is that, in the long term and in the short term, they cannot be trusted. They have an ability to spellbind and draw into their clutches any perceived interloper, as can be seen from recent history, where new arrivals on the banking scene have gone native. I refer to Bank of Scotland Ireland, which came in with much fanfare and was going to do all kinds of things. It was brought into the cosy cartel. Public interest directors must come under scrutiny and, vis-à-vis the banks the price of liberty is eternal vigilance.

I have a number of recommendations to the committee listed in the submission we made. All legislation under the remit of each Department should be assessed under the standard cost model used in many other jurisdictions. Consultation with stakeholders is not as good as it should be. We hope for more risk-based assessment and enforcement, which is feasible with more co-operation between Departments and increased use of ICT. More emphasis is needed on advocacy and mediation within the regulator's office. When NERA was originally set up, its emphasis was on prosecution. The e-mail address was prosecution@nera.ie. That gave a sense of togetherness from the SME perspective. That has changed now and we have had a great deal of discussion and consultation with NERA. The advocacy and education of NERA has improved and it is doing a very good job. More resources should be employed under the higher level group on business regulation in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. Regulatory impact assessments should be enforced on all legislation and regulations imposed on small businesses. Although it may not be under the remit of this committee, late payment legislation was introduced in 2002 and is a total and utter waste of time and energy. It has the opposite effect to what was intended. It was intended to reduce the delay in payments from 52 days in August 2002 but has succeeded only in increasing this to 76 days. The legislation has had this effect and if there was a proper regulatory impact assessment and consultation had been taken into account, this would not have happened.

Two quick wins are available. The estimated cost of the requirement under the Organisation of Working Time Act is €68 million. This is being ignored by the vast majority of people and is of no major benefit. If scrapped, it would not make a whit of difference to business. Although the cost is substantial, we must also consider the nuisance value that creates the impression that regulation is worse than it is.

The second quick win concerns the requirement to submit the annual returns of directors and secretaries of limited companies even if there is no change of directors. If there are no changes, the existing return should be sufficient.

At the announcement of the regulatory system at the new annual regulatory forum, the Taoiseach said we need to ensure that the "economic regulatory system in Ireland is "fit for purpose", robust and responsive to changing economic, environmental and social needs". ISME agrees with this and suggests regulators consider the consequences of their far-reaching decisions on the beleaguered SME sector. ISME also suggests they consult more widely with the SME sector than has been the case to date.

I welcome Mr. Fielding to the committee. His presentation was very good and concise. The thrust of his presentation was to think small first. We all agree with this point. The SME sector will be the driver of the recovery. Can Mr. Fielding identify the biggest single factor facing the SME sector determining whether businesses will survive over the next three years? Can he address credit, the banks, working capital and loan facilities? Can he address dealings with the Revenue and difficulties with obtaining tax clearance certificates and agreeing payment schedules? Can he also address the ISME members getting paid by State bodies?

I was in practice for many years. It struck me that there are different dates for filing PAYE returns, VAT returns and corporation tax returns. Mr. Fielding referred to the Companies Registration Office and streamlining it. The requirement for the directors and secretaries form should only apply if changes have been made. Have there been discussions about streamlining dealings with Revenue? Much of the information going to the CSO, the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is common. If there was one window to provide this information, the quality of information would be more consistent than what one gets with the various bodies.

What would Mr. Fielding like to see happen so that viable, profit-making businesses in the SME sector do not go out of business? What does he see as fundamental issues? The banks are being accommodated by the taxpayer with a certain structure that enables them to come through difficult times for the banks. What framework would Mr. Fielding like to see for the SME sector?

Mr. Mark Fielding

The biggest issue for the SME sector since September 2007 is economic uncertainty. That is the greatest concern. This is having an effect on planning and spending of businesses and investment in the businesses. This is similar to the consumer, who is now saving 12% of take home pay compared to 2% in previous times. The recession is psychological as much as anything else. The psychology at the moment is that if the Government does not know what it is doing and is not leading us according to an economic plan for the country, we better hang on to what we have and keep our heads down in the hope that we can weather the storm. Business owners take the view that they cannot be asked to invest in the business even though they may have cash available or access to finance for a particular project.

With regard to access to credit, the Mazars report published last week has been hijacked by the banks. In the first two Mazars reports there was major input from the Department of Finance, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and small business. We did not even know the third report was coming out and it was launched at a joint press conference by Mazars and the Irish Banking Federation with no Department of Finance, Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment or small and medium enterprises. It was very disappointing from our point of view.

Specifically on the Mazars report, is it credible that the banks are unable to provide a breakdown between new and existing lending within the figures provided to Mazars? The assumptions under which the Mazars report was carried out are extremely constraining and it does not give a level of information. Is that fair comment?

Mr. Mark Fielding

It is incredible to think that some of the best money-making machines in the world, being the Irish banks, do not have information on the breakdown between new and existing loans and overdrafts and term loans——

Mr. Mark Fielding

——and could not distinguish between a small business from a medium one from a micro business.

Mr. Mark Fielding

It is incredible. They state they do not have the figures. I will leave that to——

The three reports suffer from that and it is a consistent trend.

Going back to the point made on Government policy in dealing with the economy, what does Mr. Fielding feel is lacking in Government policy to give certainty to the SME sector to move the economy out of recession?

Mr. Mark Fielding

We cannot have certainty, but if a suite of policies was put in place then whether one liked it or not at least one would know what the policy was. Last summer, the Tánaiste introduced the employment subsidy scheme. Initially it was for exporters only but it was extended to all companies. However, in the small print one saw that it was extended to all companies except those employing fewer than ten people, immediately excluding 90% of all businesses. Therefore, Government policy on employment is Government policy on the employment of those employing ten or more employees. It gives an unfair advantage to someone employing 11 as against somebody employing nine. The Government does not have bottomless pockets but one would think more could be done when one sees the amount of money being invested in the banks. I know that is a separate issue.

Yes, joined-up thinking.

Mr. Mark Fielding

There has to be and it is what is lacking. This economic uncertainly comes from a lack of joined-up thinking. It is all or nothing for the banks. What about business?

With regard to Government bodies, we have found the Revenue Commissioners to be quite helpful in as much as they can be within the remit they have to collect money. When they see businesses that are genuinely vulnerable and have cash flow difficulties, they are quite helpful in setting out a repayment schedule over a period. The major difficulty we have, and I had this discussion recently with the Collector General, is that when an SME has done a deal with the Revenue Commissioners to pay over a period the bank does not agree to honour the cheques. There is no point. While the Government is assisting vulnerable viable businesses to get out of difficulties another arm of Government is shooting them down.

To progress from that, Mr. Fielding is seeking joined-up thinking whereby all businesses would be fairly treated in a consistent manner. What is Mr. Fielding's view on a bank guarantee scheme being put in place to provide credit? Does he believe recapitalisation of the banks and NAMA will be sufficient to bring about a flow of credit to the SME sector?

Mr. Mark Fielding

Although certain people stated that NAMA would be the silver bullet for access to credit for small businesses, it was never going to be that. The banks of their own volition will not issue credit to small businesses because their main issue is to return to profitability and shore up their balance sheets. By lending to small businesses they will not do that; they will put their ratios out of kilter. One hopes that once NAMA has been put in place and recapitalisation starts that the banks will be under pressure to do so. If there was joined up thinking it would be that NAMA and recapitalisation would rescue the banks on condition. I know the Minister has put in place €3 billion out of the two banks for two years.

We will not hear that until 14 May. There is a plan.

Mr. Mark Fielding

We are looking to Mr. John Trethowan to oversee that. I attended a committee meeting here where Bank of Ireland and AIB came in and gave the greatest display of untruths. It is quite difficult to believe that they will issue the €3 billion.

We have been seeking Government guarantee schemes for more than a year and a half. The Department of Finance does not look too kindly on it. A type of Government guarantee scheme is working in 23 of the 27 European countries. Therefore it could work here. The difficulty is that so much has been put into guaranteeing the banks that the Department of Finance is looking at this as another guarantee and I am sure the optics would be that the Government is coming in again to guarantee the banks. While there would be a Government guarantee I would have thought it would be partial and that the banks would have to match it. In other words, if one sought €100, 000 one would need collateral for €50,000. Of that €50,000, there would be €25,000 from the Government and €25,000 from the bank. It would take part of the risk.

In summary, Mr. Fielding believes the Government should have a small business strategy to specifically address the concerns of the SME sector, which is lacking at present. Does he believe that if this was put in place and credit flowed it would bring about a degree of certainty? What is his overall perspective on where he sees the economy going over the next three years?

Mr. Mark Fielding

Yes, if there was an overall business strategy and the SMEs were a vital part of that strategy. We are not asking the Government to look at SMEs only. We are looking for a parity of esteem between SMEs and multi-nationals. Even in job creation, Ministers are well able to go for photo opportunities where there are 150 jobs promised by a multi-national over the next two, three or four years. However, what they ignore is that in each village and town there probably two, three or four jobs being created at present. The fight back is on through the SMEs. We are creating one, two or three jobs in pockets.

Mr. Mark Fielding

Because we are so disparate it does not create the same photo opportunities but I would say "watch this space". There does not seem to be a strategy for an overall policy for business at present.

What is Mr. Fielding's view of the economy over the next three years?

Mr. Mark Fielding

The SME sector will bounce along the bottom for several months. We have seen the famous green shoots in the multinational sector. If past history is anything to go by, there is probably a nine month lag behind, whether it is nine or 12 months remains to be seen. I hope that by the end of this year we will see SMEs in different sectors within the SMEs. I was in Limerick recently with a group of precision engineering businesses. They are seeing their order books starting to fill up again.

Limerick always fights back.

Mr. Mark Fielding

These people happen to be from all over the country. They just happened to meet because there was a match in Limerick on the day. The fight is back. Those same businesses would have had a reduction of between 60% and 80% in their turnover in the past year. In the first three months of this year, business has started to come back. In regard to one of those businesses which employs 23 people — in his second question Deputy O'Donnell asked about the filling in of CSO forms — I received an e-mail in recent days which reads:

The following, Mark, is a list of reports we have had to do for the CSO. We are obliged by law to do so under section 26 of the Statistics Act. 1. CSO monthly industrial inquiry. 2. CSO quarterly accounts inquiry for industry. 3. A wholesale price index inquiry. 4. An earnings hours and employment costs survey. 5. A production COM survey. 6. A CSO census on industrial production.

Those were just the CSO reports. As well as that, there are the monthly interstats, monthly VIES, the annual Forfás business report which goes to Enterprise Ireland and is similar to the CSO statistics. The businessman is talking about the repetition in those reports and saying that most of that information is in his annual accounts that go to the Companies Registration Office and the tax office. Much work is being done in the background on joined up thinking between all these departments and the XBRL project is being done. It is all about different agencies working together and having the statistical information that can be interrogated by different organisations. It will be five or six years before anything like that happens. At present, we are stuck with having to do this.

For the business that employs 23 people — he is exporting into the aerospace industry — he said that he does not get one-third of that information required of him by his US customers. It takes him a couple of hours over a couple of nights every week to fill in those forms because he does not have time during his 8 a.m. to 6 p.m. working day.

Why does Mr. Fielding suggest it will take five or six years before the system is streamlined? Why should it take that long?

Mr. Mark Fielding

I listen to the experts from the CSO and the Revenue. They are the figures they give us.

I will be honest——

It is crazy to talk about a plan that is still that far away.

From dealing with people, I find that completely illogical because everyone knows there is a major cross-over in terms of information.

Mr. Mark Fielding

Yes.

That is something that should be done, even if in a fashion where areas could be grouped together.

Mr. Mark Fielding

I am not competent to answer that question. I listen to the experts from these areas and that is what they tell us. The ROSsignatures for directors and secretaries are being used by the Companies Registration Office. That is an advance. There are small advances taking place, so work is being done. At the moment it is not fast enough.

The ROS system for the Revenue is highly efficient and also in terms of the CRO. The quality of information would be improved if there was a one-window submission route. If a large file is reduced to a small file, normally the quality of information in the smaller file is much better.

Mr. Mark Fielding

One of the things we find from the statistics going into the CSO is that we are well-known as an organisation to run surveys on a very regular basis among our members. We got a response rate of between 25% and 30%. The reason is that we issue the results back to the members so that they can benchmark their own businesses against the general.

That is the logical thing to do.

Mr. Mark Fielding

If the CSO started to release a little more information on a sectoral basis, it might get over people's reluctance to supply information.

I thank Mr. Fielding.

I want to look at the recommendations, set out in the presentation which states:

There needs to be a review of the objectives of regulation as, in our opinion, neither the objectives nor reasons for regulation are fully understood by the public service or the wider political stakeholders.

Is it Mr. Fielding's view, given that he has quoted the CSO example in that firm, that the CSO imposes an obligation through the Statistics Act, on businesses to supply the figures but that the CSO has no clear understanding of the administrative or cost burden that places on the business and it is acting as just one arm of Government to do that? In effect, Government needs to ensure that businesses are not over regulated in a way that increases their administrative functions for no stated aim at the end of the day, except that it gathers figures which may or may not be used productively. Is the higher level group on business regulation looking at that specific topic and getting into the nitty gritty to ensure that business function is taken away from that business person so that he or she does not have to waste a number of labour hours over the course of a week preparing material for which there is no gain to the business person and only adds to his burden of work?

Mr. Mark Fielding

The objective of the XBRL project would be that in X number of years' time one set of statistics would be given and everybody could feed out of those, so all the pigs could go to the same trough. There was a time when I would have said the CSO did not have a clue in regard to the burdens it places on small business. However, during the past two or three years, given the dialogue with ISME, it is coming to understand those difficulties. Of course, one gets the shrug of the shoulder because the CSO has a job to do. The blame goes not to Dáil Éireann but to Brussels. Given the problems with Greece and the figures it produced, the European Parliament will seek more figures and more accurate figures and will not accept some of the statistics being provided at present. The danger is that we will become more statistically challenged.

In terms of the regulatory process as a whole, Mr. Fielding makes the distinction between the light touch regulation of the banks and the heavy regulation for SMEs. I am sympathetic to everything that has been stated here because we deal with them at the front end. For example, in regard to Revenue, there are scenarios where agreements are struck between businesses and Revenue in regard to outstanding obligations for taxation and so on but what is happening in the SME sector is that guys are not able to collect the money outstanding and due to them. While one gets a sense that Revenue is flexible in stretching out the time lines and is coming up with agreed repayment schedules, the agreement on a repayment schedule is made in good faith by the SME but what happens is that the goalposts shift further in that the person who owes the money outstanding is not in a position to pay and then the heavy hand comes back down on the business. I am dealing with one such engineering firm in north Cork which is finding it very difficult to get to talk to Revenue. The reason he is finding it difficult is that having already been in to Revenue and drawn up a schedule, the payments due on invoices have not come in and Revenue is now putting the heavy hand on him. To see that business thrive, I want to see him being given some sort of a break. His impression, as a business owner, is that Revenue will come down heavy on him and shut him down, rather than cut him more slack. How as politicians do we legislate to cut that business a bit of slack in current times?

Mr. Mark Fielding

The major issue the Deputy is highlighting is the difficulty with the Prompt Payment of Accounts Act 1997, which is the most incorrectly named legislation that was ever brought through Dáil Éireann. It was amended and implemented by regulation in August 2002. .

We were engaged in consultation with the Department prior to its implementation and our understanding was that payment had to be made within 30 days, and if not, an interest penalty had to be paid for breaking the law. At the very last moment, obviously as a result of lobbying by a group representing big business, there was a change that allowed businesses to contract out of the legislation. We were to enact legislation to allow small business to be paid on time but the legislation was amended to allows big businesses to abuse their dominant position and dictate to small business that they will pay in 45 or 60 days' time. We have letters on file from multinationals and some of the large Irish companies that are multinationals stating that in the past they used to pay accounts within 45 days but will now extend that period to 60 days.

Is it impertinent of me to ask that copies of the correspondence, without referring to the individuals in question, could be furnished to the joint committee? That would assist us in seeking to effect changes to the legislation, if necessary.

We must grapple with this issue because it affects sub-contractors who are operating on a more informal basis. We raised this issue at the previous meeting. If we had substantive evidence and bearing in mind that we can conceal people's identity, that would assist in highlighting this issue.

Mr. Mark Fielding

I can send the correspondence to the joint committee. I do not have any problem in mentioning their names — Diageo, Pfizer, C&C.

Did they contract out from the legislation?

Mr. Mark Fielding

Yes, they are telling their suppliers when they will pay them and it is not within 30 days.

Is there a clause in the legislation to allow this?

Mr. Mark Fielding

Yes, there is a clause in the legislation that allows a body to contract out of the legislation. The legislation states 30 days.

——but you can contract out.

Mr. Mark Fielding

——but you can contract out.

Is that meant to apply in special circumstances or is it——

Mr. Mark Fielding

No.

Is this happening 100% of the time on all contracts, or is it an intermittent practice?

Mr. Mark Fielding

The letters we have seen would have gone out to all of the suppliers to those companies. It would not be just picking some. Remember the people who are doing this are the big guys, the companies at the top of the tree. They are abusing their dominant position by telling people when they will pay, and the 45 days then becomes 60 days. There is a domino effect down the chain.

In essence, they have the owners of small businesses effectively over a barrel and there is no legislative provision that protects the small guy because of the contracting out process.

Mr. Mark Fielding

There is a route in the legislation an organisation such as ISME can take, but we will not get our members to give us the information and stand over it because they will lose the business from the multinationals. That too is another abuse of a dominant position.

I have a particular interest in the food industry and one of the issues that is coming up in terms of the regulatory regime is the Hassop regulation. Have food businesses contacted ISME about the overly stringent Hassop regulations, given the way the system works in France, where an artisan producer can continue to produce, and there is no hassle.

Mr. Mark Fielding

Yes, we have. The legislation is enacted as if everybody in the food industry was operating a McDonalds rather than a McDonnell's farm out in County Wicklow or the Clonakilty pudding. The small businesses are being put through the hoops. Safety is of paramount importance, but artisan producers would say they are not going to kill one person. There seems to be an over-emphasis on this and the costs to the producers is phenomenal.

Is it Mr. Fielding's sense that it speaks to the culture of the country that when legislation is devised in Brussels, we seem to go hell for leather to try to implement it.

Mr. Mark Fielding

We tend to be the best in class.

I apologise for taking so much time.

I am not exasperated with Deputy Sherlock's very interesting questions, but I have a time constraint as I must go elsewhere. I did not mean to be disrespectful of Deputy Sherlock's contribution.

When I was a small boy, there were two ladies who used to sit at either side of the corner of the main street and sold fish from stalls. That fish never killed anybody in the town. It was the freshest of fish. Then along came the European Union and with that came the man with the biro and laptop and before we knew where we were, we had regulations, directives, commissions, committees, red papers, black papers, white papers and green papers and yellow papers. Before we knew where we were, we had driven these poor people off the streets. It must be difficult enough for people who were involved in that type of a business for all their lives to travel to other European cities and see stalls such as they had in main thoroughfares across market streets and there does not seem to be a fellow with a laptop, biro or briefcase running after them not to mention a good few summons in the back pocket. Maybe the stories are apocryphal but right across the small business sectors, there is a feeling that there is massive over-regulation. They feel they are being driven from pillar to post by an administration and by an administrative system which insists on implementing not just the spirit of the directive or regulation from Brussels but the very letter of the law.

Does it come as a surprise to anybody that when certain very sensible treaties, which are put before the people for the welfare of the Irish people are defeated? It is happening because ordinary people are looking at what they consider to be the Europeanisation of Ireland and the dictation of their lives. It is fair to say that these directives and regulations which are the function of the European Commission and must be implemented by member states are implement more stringently in this country than they are in any other European state. Why is that?

An abuse of power.

This has been going on under successive Governments since Ireland first joined the European Community. There is no doubt about it. It is important that someone says there is a feeling in Irish society and small business of over-regulation and of being driven out of business.

I am glad someone listens and I have finally been heard.

Can Deputy O'Donoghue define implementation? Is he talking about the Government?

I will define administration for the Deputy. Having been born and reared in a small business, and having set up a solicitors firm — which is a small business — with my family, from the perspective of the broad mass involved in small business, the definition of implementation is the arrival at the front door of a fellow with a biro, a set of statistics and a briefcase. No sooner has he gone out the front door than there is a fellow with a laptop at the back door.

That is the bottom line. The EU introduces 500 new laws or directives a year but these are negotiated and agreed by Irish officials and Ministers, who are elected representatives and in whatever party. In the past ten or 15 years this has been one particular party. It is time we said that enough is enough on a cross-party basis. In France they cook bacon with a cigarette in one hand and a bottle of beer in the other hand. No law or laptop gets them. We have had good discussions at the Joint Committee on EU Scrutiny with those involved in artisan food production. They cannot compete against other countries in Europe under the enactment of regulation in Ireland. Deputy O'Donoghue put it much more eloquently than me.

Hopefully we can get some action on this.

I do not normally intervene. Every public representative in Ireland sees what is stifling Irish business. If a person falls foul of regulation, by the time we can get that business back on track they must go through 16 different hoops. Rather than committing to getting it sorted today, they must spend three or four weeks with the best people they can find to advise them on going through the hoops. It may have been a minor breach.

Their businesses are suffering in the meantime.

Regarding Deputy O'Donoghue's point, the crooked bananas directive was deemed to be no longer acceptable. The people represented by ISME are trying to keep their businesses open while complying with regulation and they are driven demented.

Under the Lisbon treaty, which was finally approved, it should improve because there will be a greater say for Deputies. Ordinary Deputies will have a say on every rule that is introduced. I am a Meath man and we are familiar with red cards and yellow cards.

Deputy English would know more about red cards than I.

Deputy O'Donoghue gets the gold at the end. We will have a chance to have a greater say. The EU recognises there must be a two-tier system with rules for small business and for larger business. That started but the impact at this level will take longer. In implementation we need to allow for differences between small businesses and larger businesses. The absorption of costs is completely different. Large business needs to be regulated because it can totally abuse power, which is not the case with small business where there are four or five employees. Can Mr. Fielding issue us with a list of the 1,000 items of legislation that affect him? It is serious if there are 1,000 items of legislation. I also asked the Small Firms Association for this. It would be helpful if ISME can provide us with a breakdown of items of legislation in different categories. Can we have a breakdown of the 30 or 40 regulations that could be eliminated? If we can compile a list we can approach various Ministers and tell them certain regulations must go. There is a target of cutting regulation by 25% by 2012. That target is out the window and no progress has been reported. We did not have the figure of 1,000 to cut by 25% in the first place. I am glad that Mr. Fielding gave us this figure. There is no real plan to cut this if we do not know what we are starting with. Perhaps we can work on this as we go along if the delegation can provide a list.

The Chairman referred to small businesses ending up in trouble as they break one of these rules. They then have a problem correcting the situation and there is nowhere for them to go. They probably ring ISME for advice and help. We need experts and advisers paid by the Government in order to facilitate businesses in these situations. Under the health check system in the UK, the Government makes available professional management accountants and legal people to sit down with small businesses. The small business person may be a genius in one particular field but does not have expertise to get out of the current situation. It may be a problem with a specific employment law or a problem in these economic times. The State should provide advisers to guide visitors through their problems in every county. Does ISME think this would be worthwhile? It is supposed to be there in the 70 or 80 organisations available but advice to help people redraw a business plan or negotiate with creditors is not available. This service should be available.

Procurement contracts are a major issue for small businesses. The French excel at this, they divide contracts into such small parts that they are required only to advertise locally. This keeps their people in jobs. We love putting small contracts together to have one large contract which then must be advertised all over the world. Our guys miss out and we must correct that.

We all agree we need a specific recovery bank, whatever it is to be called, that will make money available to functioning businesses that can survive if they get help. Is ISME in any negotiations with credit unions? There is a lot of money in those sectors and it could be used to help small businesses.

Some of the large businesses abuse their position with regard to late payments. Some State bodies also abuse their position and I would like to hear the comments of ISME if that is the case. We are told that the period has been reduced to ten days or 15 days but that is not a case. State bodies always find a reason not to pay. An example is Iarnród Éireann, which owes hundreds of thousands of euro to contractors. That is not good enough in the current environment. The Government should pay its bills. If there is a problem, it should be sorted out. There should not be people waiting two or three years for their money while others come into this House and tell us the bills have been paid. That matter must be examined.

We can make massive progress on e-banking if we want to. The budget is the opportunity to do that. It could cut costs dramatically for businesses. We are very fixated on cash, carrying cash and paying in cash in Ireland. I am one of these people, I prefer to have cash in my pocket. Other countries have moved on dramatically by using laser cards or debit cards. In business, we must make some progress on that front.

Some small businesses fall foul of circumstances and cannot survive and it is my belief that we will kill their spirit by the way they are treated afterwards in respect of social welfare. If small business owners who fail are treated well, they will bounce back in a year or two and go at it again. We need the entrepreneurial spirit to start again and employ three or four people. We are putting these people through hoops and hardship and we are building walls in front of them. They will never become self-employed again if we do not treat them properly. Does the delegation get the same sense from its members?

Much work was done behind the scenes on e-Government about the collection of data. The intention was to facilitate information being collected and used by everyone. It is lunacy that information must be filled out in forms and the same information must be given to ten different Departments. It makes no sense. Are Departments engaged in power struggles, which creates additional costs for businesses? Has the delegation seen any improvement in its members' dealings with local government? Most people in local government and probably Departments have the perception that small businesses could take it and could handle any costs thrown at them because they were making big profits. The majority of small businesses do not make big profits; they make a wage. Perhaps they make a little more in good times but most times they probably lose money because it is difficult to cover all costs. However, the perception is that they are making money and should be hit with more costs. That perception must be done away with and the only way to do so is for ISME to be part of the talks. It should be part of them and have a major say.

In February 2008 I tried to discuss this with Deputy Micheál Martin, who was Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment at the time. It was in small businesses that the jobs went first. I received phone calls on a daily basis from small businesses losing one, two or three jobs. That is where it started and within six months it was having a major impact on larger businesses. Small businesses are closest to the ground and reflect what is happening. We badly need them to get out of the current situation. However, ISME is not involved enough in talks. I hope we can get that sorted.

Many recommendations are made and I agree with most of them. ISME needs to allow for common sense in the coming years. It is impossible to change all of the rules to create breathing space now. What needs to happen is that a message should go from each Minister through the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to ease up for a year or two on small businesses and give them a chance to survive, be it with regard to revenue or regulations.

With regard to data and form filling, census information is meant to be collected to provide for planning. If it was done properly we would not have shortages of schools, buses or roads in certain areas. Obviously, we have never done that. We have all this form filling but the follow-on does not seem to be there. It is generally a waste of time unless we collect data every four years so we know ten more buses or three more schools are needed to serve a particular area. However, people do not see that impact; they see crisis management. Obviously, data collected is never used for planning purposes so why should people participate? Small businesses do most of that data collection. One could speak on this for ages but I will stop now. We could link with Mr. Fielding on many of these issues to try to make changes. We all speak about it but nothing is being done about it. We have to get some changes made.

Mr. Mark Fielding

I will go through the points. We will certainly get the Deputy a list of the 1,000 forms. Approximately nine years ago we papered the front of the ISME building with 1,000 forms and I can provide photographs of that. Some of those forms are out of date.

If Mr. Fielding provides us with the ones that are obviously stupid we will try to deal with this issue.

Mr. Mark Fielding

With regard to advisers, why not get the existing regulators to place them? When I was in practice, when somebody established a business the Revenue Commissioners sent someone out on a visit to go through the requirements. That was a success. However, they do not have the manpower to do it now. With regard to NERA, rather than doing all of this——

Cloak and dagger.

Mr. Mark Fielding

——prosecution it should be there. People saying "I am from the Government and I am here to help" does not exactly help we could get across that more education and advocacy within the various regulators is required rather than establishing new ones.

Procurement is becoming a bit of a joke in Ireland. It is like what Deputy O'Donoghue stated, we are the best in Europe so when there is a procurement we have to issue it to all of Europe. I attended the Enterprise Ireland launch of the innovation vouchers for small business. A plastic sheet containing the documentation and a beautiful biro were handed out. The documentation was printed in England, the plastic cover was obtained from England and the biro was made in Spain.

That is ridiculous.

Mr. Mark Fielding

That is the type of rubbish we must put up with all of the time. Last week's "Prime Time" programme featured Future Print. The amount of Government printing work leaving this country and going North or to Britain is phenomenal. In Future Print, 112 jobs are on the line because it cannot get this type of work. The fruit and vegetable contract for the Army barracks in Donegal went to a firm in Antrim and the building work on the barracks went to a Northern Ireland company. Many small businesses in Ireland would be well capable of doing it but we are part of Europe and the best Europeans. ISME is doing much work on procurement. Today, we held a workshop where approximately 30 small business owners met the OPW at the Red Cow Hotel. Two more groups of 30 are waiting to meet the OPW to discuss procurement. We have already discussed it with the HSE and held meetings throughout the country with 30 or 40 owner-managers. Those within the HSE and the OPW are excellent people but they are being caught in the overcoat they must put on of being Europeans.

With regard to credit, a recovery bank and credit unions, the credit unions and Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council have come together to work on such a project. Work can be done on this and we have been involved a little but we have not advanced it very far.

With regard to late payments and the Government, Departments are good at paying.

It is the agencies.

Mr. Mark Fielding

It is the agencies which have been left out of the initiative. Deputy English mentioned CIE and I will mention the HSE. While they are supposed to pay within 30 days, Deputy English is correct that one will find they come up with all sorts of excuses, such as asking for an invoice to be issued again. For instance, someone will state he or she knows an invoice was issued in October but will ask for it to be re-issued with the date 1 March. That is happening all the time. This is abuse of a dominant position because if one rocks the boat with the HSE, will one get the next job? That is the difficulty.

That is an Irish thing.

Mr. Mark Fielding

We have been advocating e-banking for years and it is quite difficult to get owner-managers of small businesses to use it. For every cheque transaction that is changed to e-banking one saves just over €1. It was introduced in Belgium and a purse was created whereby there was an incentive. It was almost that money was put into one's account to use it. People then got used to it.

We agree it probably has to be led by the Government.

Mr. Mark Fielding

I would rather see the Government step out of it and let the banks do it. They are quite capable of doing so if they just had the will. Perhaps the Government has to give them a toe.

Perhaps the banks make too much money out of it.

Mr. Mark Fielding

At present, a small business will save €1 on every cheque so there is a gain to be made for SMEs.

I take the point on the XBRL but I am not competent to speak on it. The agencies are working together on it and the faster the better as far as I am concerned.

Deputy English also spoke about local government and he is correct. Deputy O'Donoghue also spoke about the European matter. Our own jobsworths in local government, with local government legislation behind them, are even worse and I will give a quick example. If one wanted to bring a wide load from Limerick to Dublin one would have to obtain at least seven different licences or permits: one from the Garda which is valid for five days; and at least six from the local authorities in Limerick, Tipperary, Offaly, Laois, Kildare and Dublin. One may also need one from Limerick corporation and from the various local authorities in Dublin. If one's truck is off the road that morning because something happened and therefore another truck must be used, one will have to apply again so the load cannot be transported. There is some woeful stuff going on but under section 283 of the 2007 Act, local government will not do anything about it. We have been in touch with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, the Road Safety Authority and the Garda. However, the county and city managers will not get up off their backsides and do it. It is such a small thing but it is creating havoc. Three counties, Mayo, Sligo and Donegal, do not charge for those permits but every other county charges for permits and one only gets a permit for one shot. That has really gone to the other side.

I have nothing to say about the census but statistics are quite important. I was asked about social welfare for owner-managers. A director who loses a business does not go on the dole as do employees. They are bunched in that regard.

Our attitude to failure is changing slowly but surely. However, there still needs to be a sea change. In the United States a person who goes bust wears a badge of honour.

Such a person can set up in business again the following week.

Mr. Mark Fielding

We do not want to encourage failure but a person who falls in this way has tried, rather than failed.

I have a final question on what happens when a business owing money to an ISME member goes bust. I believe the process of going through the courts is horrendous in such cases. Is there something we could do in this regard?

Mr. Mark Fielding

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has extended the Small Claims Court but it only deals with low-level cases. It needs to be brought up to at least €10,000 to make it worthwhile. Going to court to collect money is almost throwing good money after bad.

I thank Mr. Fielding for his attendance. We will meet tomorrow to discuss credit unions and we will meet on Wednesday, 5 May 2010 at 12.30 p.m. to hear from the Small Firms Association.

The joint committee adjourned at 5 p.m. until 4.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 28 April 2010.
Top
Share