Skip to main content
Normal View

JOINT COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC REGULATORY AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 25 May 2010

Review of Lending to SMEs: Discussion with Mazars Consulting.

I welcome Mazars Ireland to discuss the findings of the final report on the review of lending to small and medium-sized enterprises. I welcome Ms Dera McLoughlin, partner and head of consulting, Mr. Joe Carr, managing partner, and Mr. Mark Mulcahy, manager.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, you are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence you are to give this committee. If you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise nor make charges against any person(s) or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Ms Dera McLoughlin

I thank the committee for the invitation to attend this meeting. We have been asked to make this initial presentation on the third Mazars report on lending to SMEs. The report has been produced at the request of the Department of Finance and the credit supply clearing group, a group established by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment in May 2009. The members of the credit supply clearing group are the Department of Finance, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Innovation, Enterprise Ireland, Forfás, the Irish Banking Federation, a number of banks and representatives of business groups, including ISME and the SFA. Our involvement in the SME lending process and the type of data we were requested to report on was agreed by the clearing group at the beginning of the first Mazars reporting process.

The reports have their origin in the bank recapitalisation programme of February 2009, under which the recapitalised banks agreed to facilitate an independent review of lending to SMEs. Our initial report on SME lending was published in June 2009, it was followed by the second Mazars report in December 2009 and the third in April 2010. Five banks participated in all three reports — Anglo, AIB, Bank of Ireland, National Irish Bank and Ulster Bank. The trends and patterns in lending to SMEs are relatively consistent across all three reports in terms of the demand for credit among customers and the supply of credit by banks. Mazars role in the reporting process is that of an independent party with responsibility for the review, collation and analysis of data. All reports have been produced in a similar and consistent manner and have been accepted by the credit supply clearing group to which they were presented. The reports have been published by the Department of Finance.

The first and second Mazars reports included an analysis of both the demand for credit, by way of a large customer survey, and the supply of credit, by way of analysis of bank data. The first report also included an examination of credit policy, credit pricing and credit terms and conditions. The third report, which is the focus of our discussion today, included an examination of the supply of credit only — an analysis of bank data.

The report examines the supply of credit under a number of product headings, namely, loans, overdrafts, finance and leasing products and invoice discounting. These are the products included in the Financial Regulator's code of conduct for lending to SMEs published in February 2009. Our report examines real economy activity so we have excluded a number of sectors or sub-sectors that are not representative of real SME activity, such as pension schemes, speculative construction and private householding lending, etc.

I would like to give the committee an idea of how we approached this exercise. At the outset of this reporting process, we conducted an analysis of what information was available within individual banks and what could be reported on. We presented that information and associated options to the credit supply clearing group, and between that group, Mazars, the Department of Finance and the Irish Banking Federation, we agreed the report should examine a number of issues regarding the supply of credit. These include exposure, which is the total value of lending currently extended to SMEs across all products. Credit applications refers to the number and value of formal credit applications received by the banks. Approvals and declines are the number and value of formal credit applications approved and declined by the banks. Overdrafts, limits and utilisation were considered because they are important in the context of the working capital need of SMEs. We reported the level of overdrafts used and available. Credit quality refers to the extent to which SMEs credit facilities are repaying or in difficulty. Drawdown is the value of credit drawn down in the period and flowback is the rate at which total lending is being repaid on an ongoing basis. The systems in the banks have not been designed to support the type of analysis we are trying to do in this exercise. This is particularly true of credit applications. We experienced a number of limitations in our efforts to report certain types of data.

Our third report on lending to SMEs showed that lending at €32.3 billion has reduced only marginally by some 1.2% as compared with the third quarter of 2009 and 3.6% as compared with the fourth quarter in 2008. Lending with regard to loans accounts for over 80% of total lending and this category has experienced the smallest reduction in the last quarter of 2009. The largest percentage reductions in lending, although small in value terms, are apparent in finance and leasing and invoice discounting. This is not unusual on the basis that finance and leasing products are generally used to buy capital equipment or machinery or fund similar capital investment. These are activities that are reduced in a recession.

We did not conduct a separate demand survey as part of this report but we examined the level of credit applications banks are receiving from customers. Our analysis of credit applications looked at formal applications only as this is the information banks capture. This refers to applications recorded on banks systems, not inquiries, and this tells us that applications for credit decreased by 36% as compared with the same period last year but increased by 5.6% in the fourth quarter of 2009 as compared with the third quarter in 2009. This may reflect a seasonal demand for credit in the last quarter of 2009.

Applications for loans and overdrafts showed a slight increase of 2% in the quarter. The main reason for the overall increase was a significant increase in demand for finance and leasing products. This may be due to seasonal factors. However, credit applications across all products are significantly down compared with the same period in 2008. We started to collect data in June 2008. Credit applications have fallen by half since that date. This tells us that SMEs are, for whatever reason, making fewer applications for credit to banks than previously.

I refer to approval and decline rates. Over 29,000 applications for credit, with a value for some €1.6 billion, were approved in the fourth quarter of 2009. This is higher than in the third quarter of 2009 but significantly lower than the same period in 2008. The approval rate based on the data reported by the banks is 87.5%. It shows a small improvement on previous periods. However, in our report, we expressed some concern over this figure, and our opinion is that an approval rate of 84% or a 16% decline rate is more representative of the position. Our equivalent opinion in the second Mazars report was 82%. This difference results from differences in bank systems and the way they record credit decisions and limitations in the way applications are captured. We performed some additional work to try and smooth out the impact of these limitations but it was not possible in all cases. These patterns of approval and decline are relatively consistent across all three Mazars reports. If they are compared to the demand for credit on the customer side, which in previous reports was based on a large survey of customers, a decline rate of approximately 24% was apparent in the first Mazars report and 28% in the second. Therefore, there is a difference of approximately 10% or 12% between the supply on the bank side and the demand on the customer side. That difference has been relatively consistent across all Mazars reports where a customer study was undertaken.

I will move on to other key lending indicators and look first at drawdowns. Our report shows that SMEs have drawn down or used approximately €1 billion of new credit in the quarter. This €1 billion equates to a monthly figure of about €356 million, as compared to a monthly figure of €377 in the previous Mazars report. With regard to overdrafts, these are a critical form of working capital finance for SMEs. It is apparent that at December 2009, overdraft levels have fallen slightly, by approximately 1.4% as compared to the second Mazars report. However, significant capacity in unused overdrafts is still apparent at end-2009. There is approximately €2.6 billion of unused capacity in overdrafts or 48% of approved limits as at December 2009.

Flowback relates to the rate at which total lending is being repaid by customers on an ongoing basis. Our report indicates that it is clear that by December 2009, SMEs were attempting to repay their debts. Repayments to banks were greater than drawdowns from banks in the three months to December 2009. Therefore, because of that, flowback has decreased from 5.5 years to 5.2 years, which means that, on average, SME credit will be repaid within a period of 5.2 years.

We also examined the quality of the SME loan book. This examination was carried out by examining how the SME loan book is split by credit grade within the participating banks. Each bank maintains and is required to maintain a grading system for its customers, whereby a customer or credit facility is assigned a credit grade based on a number of factors, such as business or financial risk, repayment capacity and so on. We have categorised those grades into three grades, performing loans, which are loans to SMEs which are making repayments, watchlist loans, which relate to accounts which are between 30 and 90 days overdue and impaired loans, which are accounts which are 90 days or more overdue.

Following our examination, it is clear that there is continued distress in the SME loan book. This is clearly shown in the dashboard or chart in our report. The green part of the column represents performing accounts, the orange part represents watchlist accounts and the red part represents impaired accounts. It can be seen that the green area — the performing loans — has reduced greatly in recent periods, but that the orange and red have increased. This tells us that by December 2009, the green or performing section seems to have stabilised somewhat but that watchlist and impaired accounts continue to deteriorate. The chart shows too that in December 2009 approximately 35% of the SME loan book would appear to be overdue. Of particular note is the level of increase in the red or impaired category by December 2009, which had increased by 5% on the previous quarter, which is quite significant.

It is important to consider SME lending in the context of economic trends and we have attempted to do this in our third report. We examined SME lending as compared to overall lending in the economy. This examination showed that lending to SMEs is falling, but at a slower pace than overall lending in the economy. Overall lending has fallen by approximately 16%, if we remove construction, and SME lending has fallen by approximately 4.5%. We also looked at the level of applications for credit within the banks, as compared to other demand factors, such as the demand for goods and services represented by GNP and the retail sales index. Demand for credit applications has fallen by approximately 50% since June 2008, which represents a significantly greater fall than the overall demand for goods and services.

We spoke earlier about credit quality and I demonstrated that at December 2009, some 35% of the SME loan book was experiencing difficulty. If this is compared to other indicators of economic difficulty, such as insolvency and unemployment, it is clear that the repayment capabilities or credit quality of SMEs closely tracks the larger deterioration of the economy as a whole. All of these parameters will have doubled in the past 12 months.

The three Mazars reports prepared to date have been prepared at the request of the Department of Finance and the credit supply clearing group established by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Innovation. Our role in the reporting process is that of an independent party with responsibility for the review, collation and analysis of data. The first Mazars report also involved the detailed review of systems and processes in the banks participating in the exercise to allow us establish a sound and reliable basis for the ongoing reporting of lending to SMEs. The systems within the banks have not been designed to support the type of analysis we are trying to conduct in this exercise. While we have experienced limitations in our efforts to report certain types of data, we have attempted to overcome these limitations, but it was not possible to do so in all cases.

The third Mazars report shows that lending to SMEs has decreased very slightly in quarter four of 2009, but that while credit applications have decreased by more than 50% since last year, more than 29,000 applications for credit, with a value for some €1.6 billion, were approved in the last quarter of 2009. There is continued distress apparent among SMEs, with 35% of the SME book operating outside its repayment obligations. This would suggest that more than one-third of SMEs, at a minimum, have significant cash flow difficulties and do not have the capacity to either apply for or secure additional credit. This is the most significant figure emerging from the third Mazars report.

I thank Ms McLoughlin for her very interesting presentation. Unfortunately, her report does not reflect what is happening on the ground nor what is happening in the business world today. I am aware of several constituents who have approached financial institutions for loans who have been verbally refused those loans. For example, one individual with a viable business who hoped to expand asked for a loan of €5,000. He was told he would get the loan, but then he received a phone call to tell him he would not receive the loan because the bank had discovered he had been three or four days late with a repayment on his house mortgage. This is what is happening in the real world. The Mazars report is accurate in so far as it goes, but one can do only so much with statistics.

Why is it that viable small businesses are saying they are being stone-walled when it comes to accessing credit, but the banks say four out of five lending applications are being approved? Somebody somewhere is getting it wrong.

Ms Dera McLoughlin

Our report looks at formal applications, namely, applications that come into a bank and are processed through the internal systems and credit application committee and so on. It does not look at inquiries, because the banks do not capture inquiries.

Therefore, it is clear that in the Mazars report what constitutes a loan application is a formal application and it did not factor in the number of verbal applications made.

Ms Dera McLoughlin

We are not in a position to do that because the banks do not capture that information.

Therefore, we know the report cannot be right.

Ms Dera McLoughlin

In this and all our previous reports we polled customers and conducted an extensive survey. The database we used has 120,000 customers and covers all sectors in the economy. Our survey showed a decline rate of between 24% and 28%. What I am saying is that there is a difference on the supply and demand side of approximately 10% to 12%.

Yes, but what I am saying is that the Mazars report did not examine the verbal applications and therefore could not be an accurate reflection of what is happening. Is that right?

Ms Dera McLoughlin

Our report only looked at applications recorded on the bank systems.

My conclusion, no offence and with all due respect, is that the report is not an accurate reflection of what is happening. I move on to my next question. Is it the case that if only some of the loan requested is approved, this is considered an approval for the purposes of the findings in the Mazars report? In other words, if an individual looks for €50,000 and is approved for €20,000, is that regarded as an approval in the report?

Ms Dera McLoughlin

What we put in the report is the approval of €20,000. The application goes into the report in two places. It comes in as a credit application and is reported there as an application for €50,000. If the application is approved for €20,000, we include that on the approval side. Both the application and approval are included.

Despite the fact that an individual was refused a facility of €30,000, Ms McLoughlin would state that it was an approval.

Ms Dera McLoughlin

We would state that it was partial approval.

Is there a section of the report which refers to partial approval?

Ms Dera McLoughlin

There is a section which refers to the value of approvals and they would be dealt with in that. Approximately 29,000 applications, with a value of €1.6 billion, were approved during the relevant period.

Does Ms McLoughlin accept that, for the reasons I have outlined, her report does not reflect what is really happening?

Ms Dera McLoughlin

Our report analyses the data available within the banks. We cannot analyse data if it is not available.

In such circumstances I am obliged to state that, in my experience, the report does not reflect what is happening.

I welcome Ms McLoughlin, Mr. Carr and Mr. Mulcahy. This is the third Mazars report. On what date was the first report published?

Ms Dera McLoughlin

June 2009.

The report before us was published in April of this year.

Ms Dera McLoughlin

Yes, and it relates to the three months to December 2009.

Mazars has qualified the findings in its reports on the basis that "Records of enquiries for credit are generally not maintained by the banks." From whom does Mazars take its instructions? I would have thought that an instruction would have been issued to the banks asking them to record all inquiries. If this had been done, Mazars would have been able to overcome the problem Deputy O'Donoghue has just highlighted and to which I referred on the previous occasions on which Ms McLoughlin came before the committee. From whom does Mazars take its instructions and why was this issue not addressed following the problems that emerged with the first report? This is an extremely important matter.

The issue of overdrafts is crucial to businesses. The banks were able to provide Mazars with a breakdown between loans and overdrafts but it is stated that applications for loans could not be separately identified in most banks. It is not credible that the banks could provide an overall breakdown but could not provide a breakdown in respect of individual applications. That problem was identified in the context of the first report and it should have been possible to overcome it in the interim.

It would be easy to examine the overall applications to quantify the total number of applications and then arrive at the value of applications that were turned down. If a customer with an overdraft that was at its limit approached his or her bank and if the bank classified that overdraft as a term loan, would this be identified as new lending? Do the loan and overdraft facilities include rolled up interest? Is there a breakdown in respect of rolled up interest? I am interested in increases in the principal amounts relating to new lending.

In the context of the assumptions Mazars has made, the report is good and comprehensive. However, it does not go to the heart of the matter. People have been approaching members since at least July 2008, when I brought the bankers before the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service to discuss credit. The quality of Mazars' work is being undermined by the fact that a breakdown in respect of the reality has not been provided. If certain individuals telephone their banks seeking information on loans or whatever, they will be informed that they should not bother applying. Information relating to such telephone calls does not make its way into Mazars' calculations. In other instances, people who apply for overdrafts are only granted a fraction of the facility they sought.

Ms Dera McLoughlin

In the context of from whom we take instructions, we were appointed by the Department of Finance and the credit supply clearing group, which was established by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Innovation. At the beginning of the reporting process, we considered what was feasible and then discussed with the credit supply clearing group what needed to be reported on. Essentially, we take our instructions from this group and the Department of Finance.

I do not believe the banks are unable to provide a breakdown between overdraft and loan facilities. Ms McLoughlin stated that they were also unable to provide a breakdown between new and existing lending but that Mazars applied some criteria to enable it to decipher the position.

Ms Dera McLoughlin

I will deal with that in a moment. In terms of inquiries, as I understand it the banks do not currently make records of inquiries because there is quite an amount of vagueness with regard to what constitutes an inquiry. Discussions between the banks, the Irish Banking Federation, IBF, the Financial Regulator and members of the credit supply clearing group in respect of firming up the position on that issue are ongoing.

Why was an instruction that such information should be provided not sent to the banks in the aftermath of the first Mazars report?

Ms Dera McLoughlin

As I understand it, they are working through it at present. We obviously do not issue instructions.

Does Mazars take its instructions from the credit supply clearing group, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Innovation, the Department of Finance or the Minister? Who is Mazars boss in respect of this matter?

Ms Dera McLoughlin

We report to the credit supply clearing group. The Departments of Finance and Enterprise, Trade and Innovation are represented on that group.

Did those involved with the group indicate that they had a problem with the banks not providing a breakdown?

Ms Dera McLoughlin

That is why the inquiry definition process, which is ongoing, was initiated in the interim.

A year has passed and many small businesses have gone down the tubes. I am just being pragmatic. What has been stated just does not stand up to scrutiny. Ms McLoughlin has explained the position. I do not wish to take from the assumptions Mazars has made and I accept that the report is good. However, so many assumptions have been made that it is preventing us from getting to the heart of the matter. Will Ms McLoughlin comment on the level of exposure, the breakdown between loans and overdrafts, rolled up interest and whether an overdraft that becomes a term loan constitutes new lending?

Ms Dera McLoughlin

I will deal with each separately. Two aspects have been added since the publication of the first report.

Ms Dera McLoughlin

The first of these is flowback, which relates to movements in and out, repayments, drawdowns, interest, and so on. We have done a great deal of work on that and are now in a position to itemise it.

Is there a breakdown in respect of loans, overdrafts and closing balances? How much of this relates to rolled up interest? What caused the decrease in total bank lending from €32.678 billion in the third quarter to €32.280 billion in the final quarter?

Ms Dera McLoughlin

We do not have that. It was not one of the items on which we were asked to report. We have the figure for the overall interest. We can indicate the position regarding movement on the basis of having the opening balance, adding the figure for additional loans and then subtracting——

That information is not in the report.

Ms Dera McLoughlin

No, it is not. We were not asked to report on it. However, we have done the analysis.

Is Ms McLoughlin in a position to provide a figure for the principal that was advanced or to indicate the change with regard to the change in the principal amount of fresh funds advanced to new business?

Ms Dera McLoughlin

Yes. That is in the report. It is €1 billion of new principal advanced.

That amount represents the total principal amount?

Ms Dera McLoughlin

Yes. There was no interest involved.

Would Ms McLoughlin include an overdraft that was converted into a term loan as new lending?

Ms Dera McLoughlin

Under new lending, we included new applications for credit, in other words, applications from new or existing customers for credit. We would also include instances where someone required a top-up on an existing facility. If a person has a loan of €20,000 and actually requires €30,000, the additional €10,000 is classed as new lending. On the basis that facilities have a term, at the end of a term customers can reapply for the same amount or additional amounts. That is also included. All of the movements in, all the new principals advanced and anything that requires a credit decision within a bank is included.

Nothing has been included regarding the withdrawal of overdraft facilities.

Ms Dera McLoughlin

We have not gone down to the granular level. However, if one examines exposures, one can discern the movement in respect taking overdrafts specifically. To deal with the point the Deputy raised about splitting loans and overdrafts, loans and overdrafts are split in all areas of the report with the exception of applications. The reason is that customers often seek specific levels of funding from banks without necessarily specifying the product. Therefore, one does not necessarily know from the outset whether one needs a loan, an overdraft or whatever, as such a definition generally comes later on in the process. In a way, the concept of splitting an application into loans and overdrafts is a little artificial in that it is not necessarily defined until the draw-down takes place, which is the aforementioned figure of €1 billion. This is an important factor.

However, to move on to the other question Deputy O'Donnell asked on whether we are getting to the heart of the matter, one important point pertains to the difference between what the demand figures are saying and the comparative supply-side factors. The former is a robust analysis of what is coming out. It is derived from a customer survey that looks at every sector of the economy and considers micro, small and medium-sized companies. It is comprehensive, is statistically representative of Ireland's SME population and indicates that there is a rate of decline of between 24% and 28%. However, the comparative supply-side factors indicate a fall in the region of 16%. Consequently, a gap exists between them of approximately 10% to 12%. The Deputy is right in that inquiries may close this gap to a certain extent and hopefully the work that is ongoing will do so.

Mr. Joe Carr

I wish to make a supplementary comment. While we are dealing with a situation in which not all the figures are available, if one takes it together, three figures stand out. There is a formal decline of 16%, a decline of approximately 28% on the demand side and the figure of 35% in distress. Consequently, if one was to read the data fairly, I merely am commenting on the data, one could state it is clear there is a significant issue in respect of the SME sector. Second, the last time we met, Deputy O'Donnell sought a reconciliation and we took that on board.

Ms Dera McLoughlin

We have done that.

Mr. Joe Carr

We can discern that more is flowing back than is going out. In other words, there is a reduction in credit going in. In summary, it can be seen that in total, there is a reduction in credit going in and second, the issue is very significant. For those who read this report, were one to be on the wrong side of that it would not be a nice place to be and it is difficult.

I wish to expand on the point about distressed loans because the report gives very good information. It reports on a significant shift that has taken place since January 2008, when the percentage of such loans was approximately 14%. The figure now has risen to approximately 35%.

Ms Dera McLoughlin

Absolutely. More than a third.

In other words, the figure has considerably more than doubled

Ms Dera McLoughlin

Yes. Within that short time.

Effectively, this increase took place over a two-year period.

Ms Dera McLoughlin

Yes, which is an important backdrop for lending. A person who is in distress and is not making repayments who then seek further facilities, obviously that is one of the figures——

Has Mazars made projections on the figure over the next quarter or for the first six months of 2010? Where does Mazars anticipate this trend going?

Ms Dera McLoughlin

While we obviously do not have the data yet, we have noticed a stabilisation in respect of performing loans. It appears as though there has been a shift in the loan book between what is called the watch list and impaired loans. In other words, if one has slipped a bit, one may slip further. However, the performing figure appears to be starting to stabilise, that is, the 65% of the loan book that is performing appears to be stabilising.

However, does Mazars believe there is a hard core of approximately 35% of the loan book that is in permanent distress? Does Mazars have views as to how this should be tackled?

Ms Dera McLoughlin

We cannot say it is permanent distress. The first Mazars report made several recommendations to tackle this issue, such as credit guarantee schemes and so on. We have made a number of such recommendations and I understand some of them are being examined at present.

Is the 35% of the loan book that is in distress to be found in specific business sectors? Did Mazars consider this issue?

Ms Dera McLoughlin

No, we did not go as far as a sectoral analysis.

I thank the delegates for attending. To a certain extent, the Mazars report tells members some things they already knew, such as that there is significantly reduced demand for credit. Of course this is the case, given the present state of the economy. Similarly, it reports that deleveraging is taking place and that banks are reducing their exposure. Of course they are, and I expect they will do so for the next five to ten years. The report also notes that a reasonable amount of new lending is taking place.

However, being enterprise spokesperson, I meet business people and business groups nearly every other day and they tell me that the problem they face primarily is one of working capital. In the first instance, overdrafts are being converted into loans. I did not fully understand Ms McLoughlin's answer as to whether the conversion of overdrafts to loans is counted as being new lending. In particular, I query whether overdraft facilities are being withdrawn. While the presentation appears to suggest that overdraft facilities are not being withdrawn, this definitely is not what I hear from individuals. Another point that has not been addressed by this report, although perhaps it was in the full report, pertains to how essentially performing customers are being squeezed. Banks are using review clauses in particular, as well as other opportunities, to increase interest rates and to increase the marginal interest rates that people are obliged to pay. Has Mazars assessed this issue because viable businesses and performing customers perceive that they are being squeezed increasingly hard to compensate for the banks' losses in other areas? Did Mazars conduct studies of this issue for its reports?

I also seek the delegates' view, if any, on Mr. John Trethowan's office. I understand that office will only review cases in which new lending has been refused. Do the delegates believe that office should have a role in considering cases in which existing loans are being restructured, overdrafts are being restricted or refused or in which people are being asked to pay much higher rates than had been the case heretofore? Do the delegates perceive a role for extending the remit of that office in that regard?

As for credit quality, I had not seen these figures previously but they represent a worrying and serious deterioration in the quality of that loan book. It is quite frightening to see the SME loan book deteriorate so quickly within such a short time. I appreciate the delegates do not have projections to hand. However, do they have a sense as to what stage such impaired loans cease to be loans? Do they have figures on the extent to which the banks have foreclosed? I do not know whether that is the correct term but I refer to the extent to which banks have gone to court and have sought to close down such loans altogether. Does Mazars have figures in this regard? They would be interesting because it is unlikely that the quality of most of the impaired loans will improve.

Ms McLoughlin mentioned that there have been 29,000 approvals for new lending. Does she have a breakdown on the ratio between full and partial approvals? I acknowledge this point was mentioned previously but I did not catch the answer. Ms McLoughlin mentioned that when drawing up the first and second reports, Mazars conducted surveys of demand for credit. However, I do not know whether the consultancy carried out a survey of business people and SMEs as to what their experiences have been in making applications and so on. I ask the delegates to comment on that point because as politicians, members rely on surveys carried out by business organisations but by definition, they have a particular agenda.

Ms Dera McLoughlin

I hope I have noted all the questions. As for the question on overdrafts, our report suggests that approximately €2.6 billion in approved overdrafts still is available. This comprises approximately 48% of the limit, which really means that people have sought overdrafts and have received an overdraft at a value but have not yet used it all. Consequently, some capacity remains within the system. What we do not know is where that capacity is, what type of customers or sectors are involved and so on. We know there is some capacity within the system. As for the extent to which loans are being converted to overdrafts or vice versa, we did not analyse that separately. However, we would have included, for example, a case in which a customer came to the end of the term of his or her facility, whatever it might be, and who needed to go through a credit application process and review, essentially to get a new decision. Such a process would have been included because it would require another decision by the bank.

I apologise for interrupting but it would be worth analysing that. I do not know whether a third or fourth report will be forthcoming but it would be worth it.

Ms Dera McLoughlin

Yes, perhaps.

As for the €2.6 billion in overdraft facilities, the question I asked was different.

Ms Dera McLoughlin

I apologise.

It was not about the size of the facilities that are available for businesses to use but about the extent to which businesses are having their overdrafts reduced.

Ms Dera McLoughlin

We did not look at that. It was not one of the things we examined so I cannot comment on it.

If a company that is profitable and doing well has an overdraft facility of, say, €500,000, the bank will not come along and say it will reduce its overdraft facility. It would not bother about that and would leave that overdraft facility in place. The banks have said they will concentrate on the potentially vulnerable businesses and cut back their overdrafts.

Ms Dera McLoughlin

That is a fair point. If we look at the pattern in overdrafts across the period, there is no significant change. Since quarter four 2008, overdrafts have only decreased by just over 0.4%. There has not been a significant reduction in overdrafts. The same is true for loans, which have only reduced slightly. I appreciate that people have anecdotal evidence, but on the basis of the facts we can observe, neither loans nor overdrafts have reduced significantly. The most significant reductions have been in finance and leasing and in invoice discounting. Invoice discounting is generally a product used to finance a growing debtor book, but not many people have a growing debtor book. Finance and leasing is generally a facility used to finance capital expansion or investment, the kind of thing that does not happen in a recession. If one looks at the facts on loans and overdrafts, one will see there is no significant decrease — less than 2% on both over the period. This would suggest not much conversion type activity is going on.

On the question of the Credit Review Office, whose chief is John Trethowan, our first report made a number of recommendations regarding various factors. The report was extensive and looked at credit policy, credit pricing and so on. One of the recommendations we made was for the establishment of a support structure for SMEs in the event they were having difficulty accessing credit. One element of that is reflected in the Credit Review Office, whereby if an enterprise is refused credit, it can appeal that through that office.

Is that just for new lending?

Ms Dera McLoughlin

Mainly, but it also applies to when one is at the end of a term and needs to reapply. The recommendation in our first report was for a support structure for SMEs to support them in the lending process, regardless of the nature of their application. The Credit Review Office, as I understand, focuses specifically on appeals.

Will the Deputy remind me of his next question, which concerned credit grades?

Ms McLoughlin said the report had not made any projections, but I wanted to know the extent of impaired loans and at what point they are written off. Has she any figures on write-offs or foreclosures or what is the position now with regard to what was 13%?

Ms Dera McLoughlin

The Basel rules require the categorisation of loans at a certain stage. Our third category, the red category on the chart, the impaired loans, relates to loans overdue for more than 90 days. These are loans which are being actively managed. However, if we look at insolvency and receivership trends — which we did in the report, these have doubled in the past year. I suppose that is the answer.

Are they a proportion of that 13%?

Ms Dera McLoughlin

We did not get into the detail with regard to which of these involve foreclosures.

I suppose I really want to ask how many foreclosures have yet to come.

Ms Dera McLoughlin

We have not reported on that as we have not looked at that.

Mr. Joe Carr

May I comment? There is a correlation between what is happening and the general economy. What we are saying, and there is no question, is that if the economy does not improve, those businesses in the red zone will find the situation very difficult and we will see more foreclosures. In that zone, there is a correlation between the performance of the economy, unemployment, receiverships and the ability to repay. Currently, it is clear that there is no improvement in this area.

Ms Dera McLoughlin

The Deputy's next question related to the 29,000 applications or €1.6 billion of new lending and whether this included full and partial loans. The answer is "Yes".

Does Ms McLoughlin have a breakdown of which are full and which are partial?

Ms Dera McLoughlin

No, we do not. In the bank system, if an application is made for €20,000, but as the application progresses through the system it becomes €10,000, the €10,000 is what gets recorded in the system. The Deputy will appreciate that a year ago there was no factual data on SME lending at all. Therefore, we are going in and looking at systems that were not really designed for this kind of reporting purpose and trying to use them as best we can. Historically, a credit applications system was a system which passed a piece of paper from one person to another and then on to the next person. We are now trying to use that system for reporting purposes. It will take time to evolve an accurate system. The 29,000 includes full and partial loans, but does not provide the split between them.

The Deputy's final question related to the survey. We did not carry out a survey in this period because the report was quite soon after the previous one. For the previous surveys we went out to the SMEs and asked them about their experience. We took a representative sample of all sectors — micro, small and medium companies — of more than 1,000, which is the largest sample done anywhere in the Irish economy. We phoned all of these companies. Therefore, they were not just responding because they had an issue. Our agents rang them and they responded to a series of approximately 30 questions. We asked about their experience and whether they were refused credit or partially refused. That was the basis for the survey. It was the largest survey conducted and was comprehensive in that it covered all sectors. It was based on asking questions rather than asking people to respond if they had an issue and was conducted in a scientific manner. It was on the basis of the surveys that we reported in our first report a 24% decline rate and a 28% rate in the second report.

The fact that there have been 50% fewer applications for credit proves there is a problem. There are two reasons for this. People are not confident enough to look for the money because of lack of confidence in the economy or they know from an initial phone call that they should not bother applying. We are all aware that is what is happening. We are missing the figures for 2007 or 2006 or were they included in any other reports? The problem started in late 2007. Therefore, the figures from 2008 and 2009 do not show the full trend. I would like to know how many applications there were in 2007 and 2006 because that would give us some point of comparison. Comparing data from 2008 to data from 2009 does not give us enough information because 2008 was a problem year. Whether we like to admit it or not, the problem started in 2007 or possibly earlier.

Did Ms McLoughlin say invoice discounting was down by 21%?

Ms Dera McLoughlin

Yes, but that is very small. The total value of invoice discounting is tiny, €800 million, which is very small in the context of lending. It is down because people's debtor books are decreasing and invoice discounting is used to fund the debtor book.

The debts cannot be collected either. Is invoice discounting decreasing because it is no longer a profitable business to be in and it is being refused?

Ms Dera McLoughlin

Invoice discounting operates a bit like an overdraft, in that a limit is approved and the customer can draw down to that limit. What is clear is that where one has a falling debtor book and where people are paying up more slowly, one cannot draw to the full extent of one's facility. It is not that the facilities are being reduced, but that people cannot draw to the limit of their facility because the discounter does not have big enough debtor book debts.

They are not being refused because the banks are afraid the debtors will not pay the book list.

Ms Dera McLoughlin

It does not look like that.

Does Ms McLoughlin know that for a fact?

Ms Dera McLoughlin

It is clear that the facilities are there, but people cannot draw to the limit of the facilities.

Ms McLoughlin said that approximately €1 billion was granted in new business in the last quarter. What would be the normal amount granted per quarter?

Ms Dera McLoughlin

We have only done this for two periods, this and the last one. It seems it came to approximately €900 million in the previous quarter and it is €1 billion in this quarter.

Are there figures for before that?

Ms Dera McLoughlin

We do not have figures for 2007.

Does anybody have the information or is it available?

Ms Dera McLoughlin

I do not know.

These reports need the data from 2007 so we can see what is really happening. Would Mazars be able to come back to us with the figures? We need to compare the current figures to those of 2007 to get a real impression of what has happened.

Ms Dera McLoughlin

Our previous report indicates that the figure for new lending was €377 million per month. In the final quarter, the figure was €356 million per month.

That is still comparing the figures for 2008 and 2009.

Ms Dera McLoughlin

It is comparing all the figures in our possession.

So the same problems existed in 2008 and 2009. We want to know what was happening in the period prior to 2008 in order that we might highlight the extent of the problem. Businesses were under pressure in 2008 and 2009.

Ms Dera McLoughlin

We were only asked to conduct a review following the recapitalisation programme. That is the reason for the start date.

It is not Ms McLoughlin's fault but the figures provided cannot really provide us with the full picture.

Mr. Carr stated that if matters do not improve, businesses that are in the red will be in trouble. Is Mazars allowed to make recommendations in respect of what can be done to assist such businesses?

Ms Dera McLoughlin

We have done so.

Can some of the businesses to which I refer be assisted, perhaps through the provision of funding or whatever, or will they be in trouble in any event?

A vote has been called in the Dáil. We are obliged to bring proceedings to a close.

If it is not possible for Ms McLoughlin to answer my questions now, she can provide me with written replies in respect of them. How many of the 29,000 applications referred to relate to new start-up businesses? If a bank grants a business an overdraft of €30,000 and then removes the facility three months from now, would this be included in the figures contained in the Mazars report? This type of thing is happening quite frequently and businesses limits are being reviewed on a weekly basis because of the changes that might occur.

How many of the recommendations in Mazars previous reports have been implemented? Does the level of implementation mean that the compilation of the reports was justified in the first instance? I hope attention is being paid to the reports but I am not sure this is the case.

If a business is being provided with a term loan, what is it asked to offer as security? I have come across some ridiculous circumstances where to obtain an overdraft facility of €20,000, people were asked to offer their homes or other properties they own as security. Has Ms McLoughlin come across this type of behaviour? Is it dealt with in this or any of the previous reports?

A vote has been called in the Dáil; we would appreciate it if Ms McLoughlin would respond in writing to Deputy English's questions.

Perhaps Ms McLoughlin could make a quick comment now.

Ms Dera McLoughlin

We do not have figures for 2007. We made recommendations in our first report and these include some recommendations in respect of easing the requirements relating to SMEs. Have these recommendations been implemented? The credit review office is a partial implementation of one of the recommendations. We understand that analysis is currently being carried out in respect of the credit guarantee scheme which was another of our recommendations. The third recommendation we made was that the Central Bank should assume responsibility for reporting on lending to SMEs. That is beginning to happen as well. I will respond in writing to the Deputy's other questions.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.55 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 27 May 2010.
Top
Share