Skip to main content
Normal View

JOINT COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC REGULATORY AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 22 Jun 2010

Interim Report on Personal Debt Management and Debt Enforcement: Discussion with Law Reform Commission

With us are representatives of the Law Reform Commission who are present to discuss the findings of the interim report on personal debt management and debt enforcement and the recommendations made in respect of regulatory reform. On behalf of the committee, I welcome the following: Mrs. Justice Catherine McGuinness, president; Ms Patricia Rickard-Clarke, commissioner; and Mr. Joseph Spooner, lead researcher, from the commission.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The meeting will be broadcast live on the Internet. I ask that all mobile telephones be switched off as their signals disrupt the signal going to the webcast. I ask Mrs. Justice McGuinness to proceed with her presentation.

Mrs. Justice Catherine McGuinness

Thank you, Chairman. As the stated Chairman, I am here as president of the Law Reform Commission. Ms Rickard-Clarke is my colleague and fellow commissioner. Mr. Spooner has been our lead researcher in respect of this study of personal debt management and debt enforcement.

The commission would like to begin by thanking the joint committee for the invitation to attend today's meeting to discuss the commission's interim report on personal debt management and debt enforcement. The first issue to which I wish to refer is the commission's consultation on personal debt management and debt enforcement. In September 2009, the commission published its consultation paper on this subject. That paper examined the law on personal indebtedness in Ireland in its wider policy setting, but with the commission placing particular emphasis on reform of personal insolvency law — bankruptcy and related matters — and judicial procedures for the recovery of debt.

The commission recognised that the focus on the law in these two areas raised a wider context of personal indebtedness generally. The commission, adopting as a reference point the framework proposed in a 2008 study funded by the European Commission, therefore approached the subject on the basis of six building blocks, namely, responsible borrowing, responsible lending, responsible arrears management, debt counselling, personal insolvency law and holistic court procedures.

The commission fully appreciated, however, that not all of the six building blocks contained appropriate subject matter for review by a law reform body, particularly in light of the wide and complex questions of economic and social policy involved. Therefore, the consultation paper identified certain relevant issues falling outside of the commission's core focus which could be addressed by other bodies, as well as those which could suitably be dealt with by the commission. In particular, the commission's primary focus was placed on the fifth and sixth of the building blocks — personal insolvency law and legal debt enforcement proceedings — and it limited its provisional recommendations for law reform to these areas.

In chapter 4 of the consultation paper, the commission, therefore, discussed the other four building blocks, while taking the view that they could be more appropriately addressed by other bodies, for example, as part of the work of the Financial Regulator or in the context of the development of a new statutory framework for financial services law in Ireland. In the area of responsible lending, the consultation paper raised several issues for consideration. These include reforms to credit reporting regulation and practices, as well as possible methods of enforcing responsible lending standards through licensing conditions, private law mechanisms or levies on financial institutions.

Regarding responsible arrears management, the consultation paper first discussed the possibility of introducing reforms to the Financial Regulator's code of conduct on mortgage arrears, before suggesting that consideration should be given to introducing an equivalent code in respect of non-mortgage debt. The final topic considered in the area of responsible arrears management was the provisional recommendation of the commission that a system for the regulation of the debt collection industry should be established. In respect of debt counselling and money advice, the commission provisionally recommended that a regulatory system for debt management undertakings should be established.

In response to the need for urgent action regarding the growing problem of personal over-indebtedness and repayment difficulties in Ireland, in December 2009 the commission decided to establish a working group on personal debt management and debt enforcement which would review, within a strictly defined timeframe, the additional actions that could be put in place in the short term, pending the long-term solutions which would be included in its final report.

The following four general subject areas were chosen by the commission and the working group to be addressed in the interim report: financial regulation; codes of practice; legal processes; and distribution of information to consumers. Under these four headings, 14 specific activities and measures are identified for consideration in the interim report. Among the key elements in this 14-point action plan are the further development of a standard financial statement arising from the review of the operational protocol on managing debt drawn up by the Irish Banking Federation, IBF, and the money and budgeting service, MABS. This will have a major practical effect because it will provide an agreed Irish standard to assess an individual's total income and total outgoings. The commission's interim report points out that some creditors do not take into account a person's total debts when assessing how much they expect them to pay. The standard financial statement allows both the individual and all creditors to have a complete view of what would be a realistic amount to pay in a given situation.

The second important element is the extension of the IBF-MABS operational protocol on managing debt. This will also bring more financial institutions and other creditors into a nationally-agreed debt management process so that it will include not just IBF members, the main banks — as it the case at present — but also credit unions and, potentially, the so-called sub-prime lenders, as well as utility companies. The latter is because many people owe money to the ESB and other providers such as Bord Gáis. The successful outcome of this extension would also make a significant change on the ground for people in difficulties.

The third element relates to the compilation and distribution of comprehensive information for consumer debtors, using a dedicated website. This would provide a one stop shop of all the available information, based on the detailed material compiled in the interim report.

The fourth element revolves around a proposal by the commission and the management of the Courts Service for a pre-action protocol for consumer debt cases, based on model statutory rules of court set out in the interim report. This would impose a mandatory requirement on creditors to issue a warning letter before bringing debt proceedings and would allow the individual to obtain advice from, for example, MABS, including preparing a standard financial statement to present to the creditor before court proceedings even begin.

The fifth element is a proposal by the commission to clarify the status of statutory codes of practice in court proceedings, for example, the Financial Regulator's consumer code. At present, it is not clear whether courts can take non-compliance with the consumer code into account, for example, by deciding to stay a final order or to refuse legal costs.

The sixth important element is a proposal by the commission to reduce the waiting period for a discharge application under the Bankruptcy Act 1988 from the current 12-year period to six years or less. This would not affect the detailed restrictions in the current bankruptcy law, but would be a modest stepping stone towards more comprehensive reform, including the non-judicial debt settlement system to be proposed by the commission in its final report on personal debt management and debt enforcement, to be published by the end of the year.

The commission's interim report does not deal directly with the issue of mortgage debt, because that is currently being considered by the Government's mortgage arrears and personal debt review group which was established in February of this year. The interim report is, therefore, primarily limited to discussing methods of addressing problems arising in regard to the repayment of personal unsecured debt. The commission nonetheless has included references to the various initiatives and actions that have been developed or planned for mortgage debt, in particular where these clearly overlap with initiatives concerning non-mortgage debt. The commission’s intention in this respect is to assist the Government’s review group with relevant material for its consideration at this point.

The interim report also largely omitted a discussion of the areas of personal insolvency law and debt enforcement procedures. The commission indicated that these areas require reforms that could only be achieved on a medium to long-term basis, and so would be inappropriate for discussion in the interim report, the focus of which is on reforms capable of being implemented without delay.

With regard to the purpose of today's meeting, the following additional subjects addressed in the interim report may be of particular relevance to the issue of financial regulatory reform: Government proposals for the reform of financial services regulation legislation generally; regulation of money advice undertakings; regulation of debt collection undertakings; regulation of credit unions; credit reporting; IBF-MABS operational protocol, as noted earlier; and status of statutory codes of practice in legal proceedings, as noted earlier.

In regard to the Government proposals for the reform of financial services regulation legislation generally, the interim report outlines the content of these proposals and welcomes them due to their potential to have a positive impact from the point of view of consumer protection and the prevention of over-indebtedness.

In regard to the regulation of money advice undertakings, the commission reiterates the provisional recommendations of its consultation paper that this industry should be made subject to a regulatory regime, while noting that the area is to be examined by the Department of Finance, which will consider whether legislation should be introduced. The commission suggests that, in the interim, money advice undertakings should voluntarily adopt appropriate codes of conduct, such as the United Kingdom Debt Managers Standards Association code of practice, which has been approved by the Office of Fair Trading.

The interim report also reiterates the consultation paper's provisional recommendations for the regulation of debt collection undertakings, while recognising that complex legislation would be required to achieve this objective. Therefore, the commission does not consider in detail this subject, and indicates that it will return to it in the final report. The commission, however, notes recent industry efforts to introduce standards of best practice on a voluntary basis, most notably those undertaken by the Irish Institute of Credit Management.

Next, the interim report discusses the issue of the regulatory framework applying to credit unions. The consultation paper had identified several issues for consideration in this area, including the establishment of legal rules obliging credit unions to share credit history data; the introduction of legally binding codes of conduct for credit unions; and the extension of the maximum interest rate that can be charged by credit unions. The interim report notes the reforms to the credit union regulatory regime which have been made recently or which are proposed to be carried out shortly. This discussion includes reference to the strategic review of the credit union sector currently being carried out by the Financial Regulator.

The interim report then turns to a discussion of credit reporting and its role in facilitating responsible lending practices. The consultation paper's discussion of the problems arising in this area in Ireland and of the different models of credit reporting systems operating in other countries is noted. The interim report acknowledges that it may be difficult to achieve improvements in the Irish system of credit reporting due to factors such as technological limitations. The interim report also notes, however, that the Department of Finance is currently examining the credit reporting system in Ireland so as to inform the Minister for Finance of any issues that need to be addressed and what measures may be required in this area, a development which is welcomed by the commission.

This concludes the commission's presentation of the outline of the contents of its interim report, with a particular emphasis on the elements of the document relating to potential reforms in the area of financial regulation. The commission now welcomes the discussion of all of the above issues by the committee.

I welcome Mrs. Justice Catherine McGuinness and her colleagues to the committee. I thank her on behalf of my party for her comprehensive presentation. I have one critique of it which I might respectfully put to her.

The composition of the working group, which was set out in the acknowledgements, seems to exclude the credit union movement. The credit union representative bodies seem to have been omitted. They represent more than 400 credit unions and provide personal credit to almost 3 million members. We all subscribe to the efficacy of reports from the Law Reform Commission. On reading the report, it is my view that one cannot have such a report without their input. I acknowledge the work done by the Law Reform Commission on behalf of the State but no report on personal debt management and debt enforcement could stand up to scrutiny without the inclusion of the representatives of the credit union movement. That is a layman's view.

Those who participated in the report seem to be more weighted in favour of the banking federation which would not be friendly towards the credit union movement. Perhaps the latter group could be brought on board as part of the consultative process.

Point 1.07 on page 11 indicated that the consultation paper also noted that no arrears management code exists in respect of non-mortgage debts and so suggested that consideration should be given to introducing such a code. Mrs. Justice McGuinness indicated: "The final topic considered in the area of responsible arrears management was the provisional recommendation of the commission that a system for the regulation of the debt collection industry should be established. I note the word "provisional". I do not understand why that would be a provisional arrangement. Is the Law Reform Commission not aware that there are private, unregulated firms charging astronomical commission to persons in severe debt for managing their accounts? I recently came across a case where a couple were being charged approximately €100 per month, €1,200 per annum, by one such company. I do not believe one can consider personal indebtedness without examining those companies as well. In the new regulatory regime there is a sense that many of those types of companies are going to slip under the radar and that the credit unions and banks will receive much of the focus, perhaps rightly so, but that the other companies would slip away. I would like to hear the delegation's views in this regard.

Mrs. Justice Catherine McGuinness

I will make a brief observation in answer to Deputy Sherlock and my colleague, Ms Rickard-Clarke, will give a longer reply. As regards the credit unions, while they were not actually members of the working group, we had meetings with them in the earlier stages when we were preparing the consultation paper. Deputy Sherlock is perfectly correct in saying we could not possibly consider the whole area of debt without looking at the credit unions. We kept in touch with them. While FLAC, for example, was not a member of the working group either, at the same time we kept in close touch with Mr. Paul Joyce of FLAC, with whom the committee may be familiar. The MABS members played a very strong part in the working group.

With regard to the regulation of debt collections, when we refer to a provisional recommendation in our consultation paper, that does not mean we think it should only be done provisionally, rather it means that we are only making that recommendation in a consultation paper and we would look forward to making a final recommendation in our report. We considered this quite a lot in the working group but for various reasons of tact in one way or another, we did not include it as a firm recommendation in the interim report. However, we certainly made our feelings very clear about it in talking to the Department of Finance.

A vote has been called in the Dáil. We will suspend for a short time and return. I apologise to the delegation. We will resume with the responses to Deputy Sherlock's points.

Sitting suspended at 4.10 p.m. and resumed at 5 p.m.

Ms Patricia T. Rickard-Clarke

We normally start with a consultation paper which would contain provisional recommendations. Then there is a formal consultation period which is followed by a final report with a draft Bill. The process from consultation to final report takes approximately two years.

This consultation paper on personal debt management was different for several reasons, including the current economic climate. To inform ourselves, we felt it important to visit the European Commission's guidelines on responsible lending, borrowing and debt management and other issues regarding financial regulation which are not law reform issues.

During our informal consultation process, we consulted with a number of credit union groups, etc. Against the normal process, we decided to produce an interim report in a limited time. We started meetings in January and agreed to publish by the end of May. This was to address some of the non-law reform issues and get people around the table to discuss financial regulation issues.

The credit unions are not subject to financial regulation. However, the Government has decided on a strategic review of this arrangement. The idea behind our interim report was to achieve an action plan and have the people around the table to deliver on some topics that we could not address in our final report or get action on them before publishing our final report.

We distinguished between financial debt advisers and debt collection agents. We worked hard with various Departments on this matter. The question arose as to which would be the sponsoring Department for legislation in this area. We worked hard with the Department of Finance to agree that the second financial regulation Bill in the autumn would include debt advice.

We also met independent groups of financial advisers and suggested to them that they work under a voluntary code. Some operate a mirror code to that in the UK which is an approved code, as Ireland still does not have proper regulation in this area. We hope there will be soon.

Regulating debt collection agents is a trickier issue. In the time limit we had, we did not receive agreement on what path we should follow. We decided we would deal with it in the final report.

The commission's report on personal debt states:

In December 2009, the Financial Regulator published data on mortgage arrears and repossessions based on the quarter to the end of September 2009. These statistics provide an insight into the difficulties being experienced by Irish households in meeting mortgage loan repayments. The statistics illustrated that of a total of 791,634 private residential mortgage loans, 8,504 were in arrears for a period of between 91 and 180 days.

Are mortgages with interest-only or reduced repayment arrangements included in these arrears figures?

Ms Patricia T. Rickard-Clarke

The figures could be interpreted in different ways. Since we did our report, more figures have been published. We did not deal with mortgage debt in our consultation paper or interim report. We were anxious, however, that whatever we said did not jeopardise what the Department of Finance group was examining. I understand that group will be issuing more up-to-date figures on this shortly.

The report also states: "The number of possession claims brought in the High Court rose by 22% in 2009, with 974 such claims brought in 2009, compared to 759 in 2008." I assume these figures have changed. Are there projections for repossessions in 2010 and 2011?

Mrs. Justice Catherine McGuinness

They change from day to day to a large extent as the courts deal with them. We felt it was important to have membership from the Courts Service on our working group to enable us to draft court rules, at the ready as it were, so as to try to introduce a more sensible way of managing the approach to debt actions. We would all agree bringing court actions is not a solution to the debt problem.

Ms Patricia T. Rickard-Clarke

In court proceedings, as well as the mortgage debt, there may be other judgments marked against a person's home or property. The personal debt and the secured mortgage debt then becomes intermingled. The question arises how does one treat it differently if it is a secured debt.

We are anxious that with the MABS-IBF protocol the question of mortgage debt is a priority. One pays for one's home and living expenses first and then personal debt. The report contains several statistical tables on debt judgments in the courts from which one will see a large increase in judgment mortgage applications, etc. These may involve some small-business owners who guaranteed the security of their house for their business debt. It is quite an issue.

To what extent are parents who acted as guarantors to their children's mortgages or those who released equity from their homes included in these statistics?

Ms Patricia T. Rickard-Clarke

There has been a huge deficit in statistics. No matter what project we have done in the past several years, we never have enough empirical data on which to work. The Courts Service, in fairness to it, is beginning to keep more statistics. When we started this project, we were trying to get these distinctions in the statistics but it was difficult. There is a huge deficit, however, which makes it difficult when trying to drill down into the available statistics to identify the real problem.

There are issues with the two categories raised by the Deputy but again we do not have figures for these.

If the Oireachtas is to introduce effective legislation in this area, it must address the collation of accurate statistics on who is affected, an area this committee should examine.

I welcome the delegation from the Law Reform Commission. I very much value the commission's work. I welcome its recommendations and agree with them but have some concerns, one of which is that the newspapers this week refer to a new type of loan for somebody in negative equity. The provision would allow the loan of an individual already in negative equity to be moved to another location, resulting in even greater debt for the individual. That is very irresponsible and makes no sense to me. One should bear in mind some of the people supporting this idea. I will not name them. We need to stop this in its tracks because it will drive people into deeper debt and greater despair.

I support all the Law Reform Commission's recommendations and have no difficulty with them. When a person first defaults on a loan, he is blacklisted in terms of his credit rating and is stuck on this list for a certain period. Notwithstanding the fact that his circumstances might change, he cannot return to his original status. Once one receives a black mark, it is held against one forever, particularly if one wants to get out of the sub-prime mortgage category. Having spoken to people involved with sub-prime lenders, I found that once they default at all, they are finished. Even if they received financial help from their families or relatives with a view to having a normal mortgage that they could actually pay, they would be stuck and could not be dealt with. There is a specific need to draw people away from sub-prime lenders.

It could be argued that drawing people away from sub-prime lenders is unjust because those who did not go to sub-prime lenders are also entitled to fair and decent treatment, but one must remember there is a special category of person that has been preyed upon by sub-prime lenders. I refer to people who got caught up in the boom and who might not have been highly educated or knowledgeable, or who did not know what they were doing. I am not being pejorative in saying this. The individuals believed the lending companies, which I will not name, were the greatest things since the sliced pan in that they gave them a mortgage, thus allowing them to purchase a house and big car and to participate in all the madness. This gives rise to a need to strike a balance between the recklessness of certain borrowers and the recklessness of the institutions that loaned them money. The borrowers were not advised and wanted to be part of the bubble. They wanted to be just as good as anybody else but they borrowed at very high rates. Credit card debt is probably easier to pay off than their debts in some cases because the interest may be lower.

The next issue I want to draw attention to concerns access to information. I acknowledge the Financial Regulator's great website, www.itsyourmoney.ie. When constituents approach me and we ring the Financial Regulator for advice, we note the advisers are top class and at the cutting edge. However, there is probably a need for a once-off publication to be made available to every household because many people do not have access to the Internet. I welcome the recommendations in this regard. Every household should have an A to Z guide on what to do and who to contact, for which guide the Government would have to pay. Many people who get into debt and who are in despair do not know where to go. This is very serious.

I praise MABS, which is fantastic and doing a tremendous job. Some people are walking away from houses because they feel they are irrecoverable. These are the human issues I know the delegates are addressing. They are important and need to be dealt with. Ultimately, the cases of the people in the categories I describe are probably the most hopeless. The delegates' proposals are clear in this regard. They contend there should be almost mandatory referral to MABS, submission of financial statements and greater rights before the courts. We must take on some of the lenders through the system. They loaned recklessly knowing everything about their clients and knew exactly what they were doing.

Mrs. Justice Catherine McGuinness

I came across sub-prime lenders in my career as a judge. Sometimes one could examine the level of interest being charged for the money loaned. We were very conscious of all the issues Deputy O'Dowd raised. We found the personnel from MABS, who were assisting us in the working group, extremely helpful.

One difficulty is that our circumstances are not like those in the United States, whereby one could throw in the keys and walk way, thus freeing oneself of mortgage debt. In our system, one would still owe the money.

Deputy O'Dowd's comment on one being stuck forever points to a feature of our bankruptcy legislation. Once one goes bankrupt, one could very readily be stuck in this category for the rest of one's life. The technical length of a bankruptcy, 12 years, is much too long. We suggest that, as a provisional move, it should be reduced to six years. Putting all these strands things together is not easy but we hope to be of assistance in making progress. Perhaps Ms Rickard-Clarke would like to refer to some of the points.

Ms Patricia T. Rickard-Clarke

We are behind other jurisdictions in regard to having a proper, modern personal insolvency regime and proper, modern bankruptcy legislation. The issue concerns the distinction between secured debt, unsecured debt and personal debt. Some jurisdictions have debt settlement schemes involving a fresh start or earned start whereby, after a period of good faith and of doing one's best to pay off one's loan, one would benefit from a settlement or write-off of a certain amount.

Jurisdictions differ on how they treat mortgage debt and the shortfall pertaining thereto. In some jurisdictions, such as the United States, one can voluntarily surrender one's house and walk away. In other jurisdictions, the process is a bit more nuanced. One of the challenges for us in producing our final report is determining how to address this. There is no doubt that Ireland is out of kilter in terms of its not having a modern debt-settlement scheme.

Although the technical length of a bankruptcy is 12 years, we have received letters from people who are 25 and 30 years in bankruptcy. To obtain a discharge one must discharge all priority debts and costs. Most people in consumer debt or personal debt cannot afford to become bankrupt because of the legal and court costs. Hence, the courts must be a last resort in respect of the balance between the creditor and debtor.

We have circumstances in which each creditor can make a separate application to court. This is what we are trying to tackle in the pre-action protocol and in respect of developing the MABS-IBF protocol. This is with a view to having an holistic approach rather than dealing with all the applications to court independently. The debtor does not engage for all sorts of reasons, both understandable and otherwise. Therefore, orders are made in debtors' absence. The court goes through a process, at a very high cost to the taxpayer, that involves judges sitting in court and county registrars. It is a futile exercise. If we can achieve so much before the court application, try to sort out the issues and have people communicating with one another, it will be beneficial. In our overall debt settlement scheme, we are trying to have a non-judicial mechanism in addition to a judicial approach as a last resort. I refer to the distinction between those who cannot pay, those who will not pay and those who could pay with help.

Ms Patricia T. Rickard-Clarke

That is extremely important. As the Deputy knows, FLAC produced a number of papers, including To No One's Credit, and An End Based on Means?, that were very clear on those issues. They are very important issues.

Mrs. Justice Catherine McGuinness

Deputy O'Dowd referred to the irresponsible lending to first-time buyers and the pressure put on older people to guarantee their children's mortgages or take on doubtful equity release schemes. These all created difficult situations.

When we examined these issues in other jurisdictions, we noted several European countries have strong regulations and regulatory systems to prevent irresponsible lending. While the commission did not recommend it, I could not help being attracted to a system that some countries have whereby the state fines banks and other institutions for lending irresponsibly.

That means a greater duty of care on the part of the financial institutions to ensure the person can make their payments in changed or adverse circumstances.

Ms Patricia T. Rickard-Clarke

In some jurisdictions one criterion imposed on a financial institution when seeking a licence is responsible lending. That also raises the issue of an individual's credit assessment and the selling of appropriate products to them.

This morning, the Central Bank issued its report on credit management and the establishment of a credit register. Again, Ireland is very much behind European jurisdictions in the provision of this information. On 11 June, the consumer credit EU directive was implemented but it only applies to €75,000. At least, however, it will be a help in setting down protocols for lending and the contractual criteria engagement with a borrower.

I know some families who would have no problems with mortgage repayments if they were on a standard or variable mortgage. However, they are having problems with their existing sub-prime lender. As they have defaulted on their payments, other mortgage companies cannot give them an opportunity to switch. There is a principle involved here when we are bailing out the banks to the tune of €22 billion plus. If some families could pay a standard or variable mortgage, should we park some of their debts to their sub-prime lenders which allow them to keep their homes?

Ms Patricia T. Rickard-Clarke

It is worth considering the sub-prime market represents approximately 2% of the mortgage market but 40% of house repossessions. There is no doubt that ability to pay has been a large issue with the sub-prime market.

Would the creation of a standard financial statement go a long way to offsetting those types of problems?

Ms Patricia T. Rickard-Clarke

It would be used mainly for dealing with arrears situations such as when people lose their job and they know their income will be depleted.

Responsible lending includes credit assessment, the use of credit ratings and the sale of appropriate products that would be within a person's ability to pay. One must question the ability of some of those people who were sold sub-prime mortgages to make their repayments.

What is the status of statutory codes?

Ms Patricia T. Rickard-Clarke

There are voluntary and statutory codes. For example, is it a power under primary legislation in which the Financial Regulator can make guidelines or a statutory instrument?

The reason we raised this is that the Consumer Protection Act 2007 contains a specific provision allowing a court to take into account any voluntary code in operation. There is no similar provision for statutory codes which has resulted in inconsistencies in the courts.

It should be made clear in legislation. It does not alter the substantive rights of the parties but the court would ask if a party has operated through a protocol or whatever and it will put a stay on it.

In layman's terms, if a financial body subscribed to a voluntary code, could it be pertinent to any evidence to a court?

Ms Patricia T. Rickard-Clarke

Yes and no. The court will have regard to them. Obviously, the behaviour of the parties might be an issue but it would not change their substantive rights.

Mrs. Justice Catherine McGuinness

It could be reflected in the way court costs are awarded and so on. That is something the courts will do out of their own discretion sometimes. This recommendation would make it more tied down. We would have all awarded costs because we felt it was just to do so in a certain way.

Ms Patricia T. Rickard-Clarke

There is a huge amount of inefficiency in the courts system with duplication and lack of clarity. This is a big issue for vulnerable debtors and their participation and engagement in the court process. That is why we suggested the pre-action protocol so that people know exactly where they stand and understand the language used. There must also be consistent approach across different courts so that a MABS adviser in a court in Meath would know to expect the same in a court in Louth.

Mrs. Justice Catherine McGuinness

One difficulty highlighted by both MABS and FLAC was that people get frightened when court papers are served on them and do not even turn up at court. Orders are then made against them in ignorance of their financial situation. By having this pre-action protocol, we would hope they will get a sensible warning which, in turn, would give them the chance to set out their circumstances to MABS or another well-regulated adviser. They then could come to a settlement with the bank through mediation or, if the matter came before a court, it would have clear view of the debtor's exact position and make orders on information rather than the guesswork.

MABS acts as an advocate for people in dealing with financial institutions but not with the courts.

Mrs. Justice Catherine McGuinness

Yes, we did examine this issue.

There is a need for an advocate service that could assist people in the courts to ensure they put their best foot forward. The protocols could be designed in such a way to ensure a person with repayment difficulties would go through various agencies before ending up in the courts. In the event that a person does end up in court, he or she should have somebody there to listen to him or her and give good solid advice.

Mrs. Justice Catherine McGuinness

That was something we discussed with the MABS people. While obviously they would not be in place of a solicitor or barrister, and were not appearing in court for the person, as the Deputy says, they could be present in an advisory capacity, and this should be a practice throughout the courts. It should not be the case that they would be able to act in this fashion in one place and not in another. It should be something that could encompass the whole country.

Yes, that is correct.

Mrs. Justice Catherine McGuinness

It is a big issue.

Ms Patricia T. Rickard-Clarke

There is a big issue regarding legal aid. Under the legal aid scheme, a person, unless he or she has a case of merit, is not entitled to legal aid for court proceedings. In 99.9% of cases involving debt, people acknowledge that they owe the money, so there is not a case to be made. This was an issue that arose in the McCann case in the High Court, in July 2009, namely, the whole question of either legal aid or legal advice. We believe, at a minimum, that people should perhaps have legal advice, which is a less expensive route, as distinct from legal aid. While the MABS people are money advisers, they cannot assess whether a mortgage is valid, for example, where the consent of spouses is an issue, etc. Before one takes proceedings, one must establish that it is a valid mortgage, a valid debt or whatever.

Again, those two issues were addressed in the consultation and the interim report, and we will probably visit them again. There is an issue of cost there, but, again, people see that and FLAC undertook a report which found that getting the debtor to engage in the process is a much more efficient system. If there could be some assistance in terms of legal advice where this is necessary, and MABS is the advocate in court assisting the individual, that would be very helpful.

I thank the witnesses for the excellent report. I am sure that it will be used in many other circles in relation to this whole issue of indebtedness and so forth. On behalf of the committee I take this opportunity to thank the witnesses for coming before us and we shall certainly be coming back to them again to discuss these matters further.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.35 p.m. until 3.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 6 July 2010.
Top
Share