I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science, Deputy Síle de Valera, and her officials, Mr. Paddy McDonagh and Ms Pauline Gildea, to the meeting. I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice that members should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside of the Houses or an official by name or in such way as to make him or her identifiable.
Adult Education: Ministerial Presentation.
I thank the Chairman and I am delighted to address the committee this morning. I also thank members for their invitation to address the committee. I am glad for a number of reasons, not least to present this overview of the development of adult education in Ireland.
Prior to 1997, investment in adult education was minimal and it was not accorded a high priority in the educational world. After the election of the Fianna Fáil and Progressive Democrats Government in 1997, there was a period of rapid development, in terms of both investment and initiative. This culminated in the production in 2000 of the White Paper, Learning for Life, that set out our vision of the development of adult education for the foreseeable future. It was prepared on foot of a process of extensive consultation with all interest groups involved in adult education. The measures recommended in it are being implemented as resources are provided through the annual Estimates process.
The White Paper identifies adult literacy as the top priority in adult education. This priority was accorded following an international literacy survey of adults aged 16 years to 64 years that was published in 1997. It found that about 25% of our population, some 500,000 adults, scored at the lowest literacy level used in the survey. In response, a number of immediate and longer-term measures were put in place, with the assistance of the National Adult Literacy Agency and the local vocational education committees, which are the providers of the adult literacy services.
Since 1997, funding from the Department of Education and Science was incrementally increased 18-fold, from €1 million then to €17.9 million now. As a consequence, the number of clients catered for annually has increased from 5,000 to 28,000 over the same period. In this, we are well ahead of the target set in the national development plan of 18,000 annually.
Local literacy services are provided by vocational education committees, as are most adult education services, with funding from my Department. Referral networks were developed by the vocational education committees to ensure that the people who needed them most were made aware of the adult literacy and basic education services. The referral system involves collaboration with other agencies catering for potential literacy students, such as FÁS, employment offices, welfare and community groups and schools.
A national referral directory of adult literacy services has been published, showing where services are located, what options are offered and the contact points and phone numbers. Staff development programmes have been established on a modular inservice basis for tutors and literacy organisers. Family literacy groups, involving adults and their children, are running successfully. Participants on the community employment scheme operated by FÁS can be released half-time from their work experience programmes to avail themselves of intensive literacy tuition by the vocational education committee. This arrangement enables them to combine work experience and ten hours per week literacy tuition. The National Adult Literacy Agency has trained a number of tutors to provide literacy in the workplace and has promoted the availability of this facility among employer organisations. Following a successful pilot project with some local authorities, the programme is now available for local authority outdoor staff nationwide. There are also successful workplace literacy programmes in two hospitals and in a trade union.
To supplement the general adult literacy service, specially targeted literacy programmes have been introduced for people in need of particular literacy services, such as deaf people or people whose mother tongue is the Irish language.
To cater for the literacy and basic education needs of immigrant groups, vocational education committees have provided funds to afford free access to literacy, English language and mother culture supports. With a view to informing and improving future action in this area, an action research project, run by a full-time co-ordinator, has been carried out in the Dublin area. The aim of the project was to assess the language and literacy needs of asylum seekers, in consultation with key interests, to initiate pilot actions and to make recommendations on a framework and costings for addressing future needs in this area. A report has been prepared with recommendations on how provision can be mainstreamed. Some 3,200 learners are benefiting from this service at present.
A quality framework for the adult literacy service has been developed and published by NALA, the National Adult Literacy Agency, in collaboration with partners in Northern Ireland, Spain, and Britain. Funds have also been provided to enable NALA to commission research on the development of an assessment framework for the adult literacy service that will be in line with best international practice. The key focus is how to bring national consistency and objective standards into the initial diagnosis of learners starting points and subsequent progress.
In 2002, the National Adult Literacy Agency published guidelines on the integration of literacy into further education and training programmes that are aimed at young people and adults who may have literacy difficulties. The guidelines focus on literacy awareness. They also set out steps to achieve an integrated approach. This involves developing a literacy plan and producing policy documents in simple, clear language. The guidelines are supplemented with training.
We realised that these initiatives would take some time to impact on the large target group of adults with literacy problems. We were also aware that, for one reason or another, many people were reluctant to enrol in the public literacy services, even though they knew they had problems. To help these people, we commissioned the production of three TV series in literacy awareness and tuition for adults. The first series was broadcast in 2000. The third series was broadcast on RTE 1 in October-December 2002, in the form of 12 half-hour programmes. As with the two previous series, it was supplemented by a national freephone helpline provided by the National Adult Literacy Agency, and learner workbooks and resource packs. Videos of the series were sent free to literacy schemes, public libraries, training centres and video outlets. A weekly average of 146,000 people watched those programmes.
The three series transmitted so far have been very successful in reaching people who may not want to join a local literacy scheme and prefer to learn in the privacy of their own homes. A fourth series is in production, for transmission this winter.
A target of the national anti-poverty strategy is to reduce the proportion of the population in the 16 to 64 age group, whose literacy skills are restricted, to below 10% to 20% by 2007.
The success of programmes dedicated to preparing participants for employment is continuing to be sustained. More than 90% of students who complete post leaving certificate courses progress to employment or further education. In the case of Youthreach, the figure is 75%. For VTOS, it is 72% and, for senior travellers centres, 52%.
The back to education initiative, BTEI, part-time measure involves the provision of PLC, Youthreach and VTOS programmes on a part-time basis. The BTEI will play a key role both in addressing the needs of those with minimal or no educational qualifications, and providing a re-entry route for those who wish to upgrade their skills in line with emerging needs. Access to information and communications technology training, electronic technician training, language skills, enterprise development, business, tourism, art and craft, child care and a broad range of disciplines within the industry and services sector will form part of the approach. Access to the junior and leaving certificate examinations and other programmes will also be available. Community education opportunities will be expanded and supported as part of the initiative, given the success of the model in reaching very marginalised groups. A particular priority will be to increase provision at foundation and level 1 or equivalent for those with low skills, and to ensure a progression bridge is in place for students from the adult literacy service. The overall target will be to increase part time options to a level of 20,000 per annum by 2006. Some 6,000 places have been introduced in 2002.
Two recent initiatives arise from the importance I attach to community education. In all, 34 community education facilitators have been appointed to the vocational education committees on a flexible needs basis, to develop networks and links with community education groups, to promote and assist their role in adult education provision, and to develop partnerships between statutory and voluntary interests, particularly in addressing the needs of those who are most marginalised. A training and support service has been put in place for the facilitators. Second, when we introduced the back to education initiative last year, we earmarked 10% of places exclusively for the community education sector.
The National Adult Learning Council was established in March 2002. It will give critical visibility to the White Paper strategy and provide an important catalyst for further change and development. It will play a key role in advising on future developments, promoting co-ordination and liaison, engaging in research and staff development, and supporting international co-operation. It will also have a specific remit to progress such issues as workplace learning, community education, an equality strategy, and to establish an advisory group on the integration of people with physical and learning disabilities into adult education. The council will be well placed to do much of the consultation and planning necessary to put in place in the future the other major structural reforms recommended in the White Paper.
We have long had a guidance service in schools, but there was no such service in adult education until recently. Our labour force must be prepared to adapt and participate in this process, and, in response to this need, the adult education sector has expanded. There are many options available for those returning to education and we must ensure that those taking this step are not left without support and guidance when it is needed. The adult educational guidance initiative was launched in 1999 in response to the recognition of the needs of adult learners. The initiative as a whole, in its three phases, is being overseen by an advisory group, which is led by the National Centre for Guidance in Education and includes participation from employer, trade union, educational, FÁS, employment service, area-partnership and community and voluntary sector interests. Pilot guidance projects, 25 in all, are being funded. We aim to have a comprehensive national service in place by 2006.
I am sure the committee will agree that we have made very significant progress since 1997. The range of initiatives and the constantly increasing investment give fair testimony to the Governments commitment to the development of adult education.
I welcome the Minister of State and her officials and I thank her for a most comprehensive report. I congratulate the Department of Education and Science and the Minister on the work that has been done to date. I am delighted to say that when the Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrate Government took over from the rainbow coalition, the economy was in good fettle and there was such funding available to allow this fantastic work to go on. Let us hope and pray that we will not see major cutbacks in this area. After five years with this Government let us hope that things will be as good as they were when they took over. I am glad that every time Ministers appear before this committee they acknowledge how good things were when they took over in 1997. They were able then to carry on the good work that had been going on and actually build on it, so good was the momentum. It is a point I have to pick up on and it is made by each Minister. I agree with the Minister of State about how good things were at that time.
I have a few brief questions to put to the Minister of State. The National Adult Learning Council has not yet been established on a statutory footing. Will she indicate when that will happen? What is the reason for the delay? Are there difficulties? I welcome the fact it has been established on a non-statutory basis, but will the Minister of State say when it will be put on a statutory footing. The White Paper indicated that an educational, adult guidance and counselling service would be set up. The Minister of State did not mention anything about a counselling service. She might indicate what her thinking is in this regard. Everybody will agree it is important to have a guidance service but there is also a need, I believe, for a counselling service. It appears that very often adults who might not need that extra bit of encouragement might benefit from a counselling service. Perhaps the Minister of State could let us know more about the community educational facilitators, the work they do and how they are getting on since they were established. Have they encountered any difficulties or problems with which they might need assistance. What reports has the Minister of State received from them, at this stage?
Youthreach needs a certain focus at this stage. Many of our Youthreach centres are in very temporary accommodation that perhaps is in need of an overhaul or major upgrading. It appears to be very ephemeral in nature. Staffing is temporary and the organisation appears to have difficulties holding on to people. Has the Minister of State looked at this and has she any plans in train to support, reinforce and assist the Youthreach service?
I welcome the television series and I believe it is good. I welcome, too, the fact it is intended to screen another one. It was well done and I congratulate the people involved. It was sensitively and carefully done and the feedback I have received has been very positive. There has been some controversy over BTA - the back to education allowance - and the changes that scheme. Is the Minister of State aware of any impact these changes might have had on participants? Has she received any reports or has she looked at any impact the changes might have made? I would like if the Minister of State could say a little more about the Traveller community. There is a great need to focus even more on Travellers and to assist them in their educational requirements. It is something we have all neglected over the years.
Will the Minister tell us how her section in the Department links in with the various RAPID areas and the proposals that have been received with regard to the RAPID towns and centres around the country? I accept that her Department has been involved with some of those. Will the Minister inform us of the progress, if any that has been made.
I do not think the Minister of State mentioned the school completion programme. While the Minister of State's presentation was useful, I would have preferred to have been given a copy of her complete script rather the bullet points, as presented. Perhaps we could have a copy of the script at some stage; it would be more useful.
I welcome the Minister of State and her staff. I will try not to repeat Deputy Stanton's questions, although I support his concern that funding should continue to grow. We are all a little scared following the interview on the radiogiven by the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, this morning and the talk about cutbacks and so on. I accept there was an indication that education might be given some priority. I ask the Minister of State to fight hard to maintain and develop the budget for adult education, because it is extremely important and is having an impact. I also agree that the television programmes in particular have been successful and I welcome the fact that another programme will start in the autumn. Many people like the privacy of their own home when addressing this issue.
I wish to raise some concerns. Deputy Stanton referred to the National Adult Learning Council and the fact the ministerial order has not been signed. I am confused about this. I tabled a parliamentary question on 20 November 2002 on the signing of the order. At that stage the reply was that it was in the course of preparation by the Department and the Minister hoped to be in a position to sign it as soon as possible. That was November of last year. What is the cause of the delay in signing the order so that the council can operate on a statutory basis?
I am very concerned at the recent announcement of a 37% cut in the child care budget for vocational education committees. There is much confusion as to how that cut came about and how it will affect the provision of services in the autumn. I am referring to the child care service vocational education committees operate for people on Youthreach, vocational training opportunity schemes and the Traveller training centres. There is concern that people will not be able to avail of child care and, therefore, many people will be unable to get involved in the courses. I request the Minister of State to please reverse that decision.
On the adult education guidance initiative, the Minister of State said she hoped there would be a national service in 2006. I wish to raise a question about the fourth phase of the pilot scheme under the NDP. At present, it is a pilot scheme. The fourth phase is due to start, but I understand it has not, as yet. Will the pilot scheme continue this year? Will the fourth phase be given the go-ahead, because there is concern in adult learning circles that they have not, at this stage, received that information? I welcome the fact, however, that the Minister of State intends to have a full national service in 2006. One of the problems for people working in adult education - and presumably for the students also - is that they never seem to get their budgets early in the year. Before the meeting a person who works in adult literacy told me they still do not know at this stage what their budget is for 2003. This makes it is very hard for them to plan the autumn service. It frequently happens that they are told at the very end of the year, "This is your budget; you have not spent it and if you do not spend it, it will be cut off your allocation for next year". It is a very practical problem for people trying to run the service. I would like to ask the Minister if it is possible to notify people of their budgets earlier each year, so they can properly plan for the service.
I share Deputy Stanton's concern about Youthreach. There are some excellent Youthreach programmes, in particular for young people who do not fit in to the normal school system and who drop out of school early. These programmes can be very good and provide learning opportunities for young people who do not adapt to the regular school system. Among those I know of, many have waiting lists and are short of funds. They could be providing opportunities for young people in their areas but simply cannot, because they have not got places available. I ask the Minister of State to review this and to ensure nobody is deprived of the opportunity to be on a Youthreach scheme simply because there are not enough places. It is essential that we provide for these young people. The fact that a growing number are dropping out of school is probably one of the great failures of what is in general a good education system. I know the education welfare officers will address that issue, but many of these young people are already at risk. They come from families where the older brothers may already be involved in crime. They are identified as being at risk, at an early age. Some of them drop out and are never seen again.
While the education welfare officers will have a role in that area they are not yet active around the country and we need some kind of net to catch these young people. Youthreach is an opportunity but some cannot avail of it because there are too few places. Is there an outreach method to get to these young people, for example a 13 or 14-year old who has not gone on from primary to second level, or who has dropped out in the first year of second level? There does not seem to be a system to bring them back in. Many of them thrive in Youthreach programmes so it is an opportunity that needs to be grasped.
I welcome the fact that there are now 34 community education facilitators around the country but I am concerned that they are provided with the proper supports and that the communities have the necessary accommodation. A request has been made for some funding for capacity building to support these facilitators. It was reported in the media yesterday that the Dublin Institute of Technology has to lay off 83 workers because of its obligations under the Protection of Employees (Part-time Work) Act 2001, which was the result of an EU Directive whereby part-time workers are now entitled to better pay. This is affecting adult education as well.
The ITs were expected to pay these extra wages from their 2003 allocation which was in real terms a reduction rather than an increase and because of that Dublin Institute of Technology has had to lay off staff. Will the Minister of State look at that issue in the adult education area as well because some of these people are working under that allocation? There is a statutory obligation to pay them this money but there may not be extra resources allocated to foot the bill. As we are in a phase now where there might be across the board cutbacks I urge the Minister of State to ensure that the adult education area is properly funded to develop the work that is ongoing.
One of the predicates for a child's educational attainment is the level of education of the child's parents and their involvement in their own and their child's education. Does the Minister of State accept that without child care it is extremely difficult for parents, especially single parents or those with young children, to enrol in any educational course? On that basis will the Minister for State clarify the reason for this cut, where the cutbacks will be concentrated and whether it is intended that they will be permanent? For anyone working to break the cycle of poverty and so on child care is central as one of the ways to break out of that cycle is through education and if the basic building blocks are not there it is very difficult for anyone to break out. I had a question about the adult learning council but it seems to have been covered. Will phase four of the adult educational guidance initiative, which was due to start, be rolled out this year?
There does not seem to be any core budget or capital investment structure for community education. Will the Minister of State say whether there are any plans to expand in that area? Workplace learning was not covered but perhaps the Minister of State will tell us about it. The Minister of State launched a document on a workplace basic education programme but employers seem to be falling down in regard to their responsibilities in this matter. Is there anything the Minister of State and her Department can do? The document referred to the lack of awareness and so on but it is part of the Sustaining Progress agreement that this will be taken up and the documentation suggests that companies are losing thousands of euro. Is there anything more that the Department can do to try to raise that?
Listening to some of the comments earlier I thought I was at a party Ard-Fheis. I would like to respond——
What Ard-Fheis?
I was getting confused; I thought I was in the wrong place.
The Senator is obviously searching all the time.
I congratulate the Government on the direction and the leadership it showed in 1997. It is incredible to think that there was no proper direction in the five years before that. The publication of the White Paper showed the initiative and the determination of the Government to move the process forward and the figures speak for themselves, not only for all those who have become involved in the process of adult education but the funding that has been made available to match that. It is clear that the Government has adopted a serious approach to this and has been very successful. I hope that direction will continue because education is so important. It is a question of how we can make it better and reach more people, particularly in the area of Youthreach where I have serious concerns.
Previous speakers mentioned the problem of losing children from education at an early stage. It is hard to retrieve them. I am involved with a voluntary group of nuns working with young people in Cork, 24 of whom sat exams in June. The group keep them in education by providing them with a hot dinner. It might sound terribly simple but the nuns have retrieved these people by giving them a hot dinner during the day and encouraging the educational process. These basics of life are still lacking in certain areas which is very worrying.
I am amazed at the volunteers who have made themselves available to work on this programme; for example, people who have taken early retirement. We have a relationship between the voluntary sector and the statutory bodies but there are many untapped resources in the voluntary sector who have the benefit of life experience and can offer help. There should be greater emphasis put on that, particularly in the Youthreach area. Given that we now have a multicultural society are there difficulties with linguistic skills and what measures are we taking to address that? We will have to face up to that now and in the future and we should try to address it early on rather than trying to retrieve a situation in the years ahead.
I join with previous speakers in complimenting the Department on the television series on adult education. It was sensitive and tasteful and won many admirers among the public and I look forward to it continuing. Deputy O'Sullivan asked about putting the board which is being established on a statutory basis but when will that agency come into being? I compliment the Minister of State and her staff on the work that is being done. It is a success story that we are making progress but we will never answer all the questions when it comes to providing education for those who need it, particularly those who are most vulnerable in our society. We have to be continuously vigilant and keep those initiatives moving forward. I hope the necessary funding will be available for next year.
On the question of people signing on for courses on an annual basis, can we not look at systems where people who sign on for particular courses can agree a two, three or four year programme for them? In this way when starting the course, provided they reach the grade, they will be assured of a place and funding in the year ahead, rather than having to sign on for courses on an annual basis. This is causing difficulties for some people. I understand the Minister of State is working on an annual budget but in this case when people are making such commitments it should be possible to identify certain skills and certain courses and assure them that, provided they met the criteria on an annual basis, their education will continue annually for the duration of the course.
I welcome the Minister of State and her officials to the meeting. What are the priorities of the Minister of State in the area of adult education? When it comes to budget time somebody will have to call priorities and I am sure the Minister of State will have to prioritise aspects of adult education. Has the Minister of State any particular areas she would like to prioritise? vocational education committees throughout the country are preparing programmes for the coming year. Galway VEC has told me that no area of education is as dependent on part time teachers as adult education. If the Minister for Education and Science continues to reduce the number of part time teachers, adult education will be seriously curtailed. I hope that does not happen. As members have said what has been established can be dismantled so easily. We have to give credit to the vocational education committees which initiated adult education. It was a labour of will on their part. Individuals within the vocational sector pioneered courses and from there it took off and developed. It would be a pity if it was allowed to go.
We have to take into account that vocational schools and vocational education committees are contracting at an alarming rate. The facilities that were available for adult education and the personnel involved in pioneering the adult education system came from within the vocational sector. The same commitment is not evident at second level in the private schools where many do not even offer their facilities. The locks are on the doors at 4.30 p.m. and adult education courses are not available in many centres throughout the country. If the old vocational school is not available for adult education, there is no centre available to many who wish to avail of adult education. As Deputy Stanton said, in many of the centres where adult education is provided, whether it be Youthreach or VTOS, it is almost impossible for any group of students and staff to provide a service. There is a need for a degree of comfort for staff and students where adult education courses are being provided.
In recent years, many students have dropped out of the education system not only at primary and secondary levels but also in the early stages of third level, and particularly from the ITs. If students of 18 or 19 years of age go into ITs without the necessary counselling to direct them to the proper discipline, they may find they are unsuited to a particular course and will have to opt out of education until they are 23 years of age on the January of the following year. If they are considering further education it does not take that length of time to decide to return to education as mature students. The stipulation that one must be 23 years of age on 1 January of the year of the course is too rigid. It is driving many students who want to restart as mature students in education on to a different line and is keeping them out. I ask the Minister of State to look at that with a view to making the system more flexible so that those who have indicated they want to start again can do so.
The Minister of State mentioned immigrants and the provision of English classes for them and some education in their mother culture. There are a few major centres throughout the country where there are large numbers of immigrants. There are no facilities for integrating them into the education system at primary level but there may be some facilities at second level. The only way many of them will get reasonable access to education facilities is through the adult education sector or at the lower end of Youthreach. Has the Minister of State any idea of what is currently spent by her Department on the provision of education for those immigrant groups? The priority appears to have been to provide housing accommodation and abandon them. In the past this led to wrongful labelling of those people as many were involved in petty crime. If they were involved in an organised education system it would be of great benefit to them and, perhaps, redirect them away from situations which present themselves because they have no other outlet.
The Minister, Deputy Dempsey, identified many part-time teachers as being surplus to requirements. He is totally misguided on this issue. Will the Minister of State ensure, because of their vulnerability and association with adult education, the current position is ring-fenced rather than allow any reduction in the courses provided. We heard earlier about a reduction in the number of part-time teachers in the IT sector in Dublin and the courses targeted. That can be replicated throughout the country. I ask the Minister of State to take a firm stand to protect those valuable courses.
I join with my colleagues in welcoming the Minister of State and her officials. She has laid before us a considerable amount of information which will be useful to us. I wish to ask two simple questions although much of what I was interested in has been covered by other questions and I look forward to the response.
On the adult education guidance initiative and, in particular, the 25 pilot projects, if the Minister of State has any further information and specific details on those projects perhaps it could be sent to the joint committee in due course. That is hugely important, particularly in the current environment, where we see a certain amount of job losses, and obviously with the necessity to re-train or assist people in getting further education, or work, the initiative spoken of has potential in that regard, notwithstanding other initiatives that companies might put in place for people being laid off. It would be good if more information could be supplied on this.
On the TV series on literacy, which has been commended by many people, I too commend it. The Minister of State said that 146,000 people watched this series. I presume that figure is based to a large extent on TAM ratings. Has there been any attempt to make direct contact with the people? I know that an important element of the programme is the privacy associated with it, and the desire of people to have information like this, but is there any approach to encourage people to make contact with some of the other initiatives the Minister of State might have? Is there a way in which the individuals could be brought into other programmes that the Minister of State might be considering, or indeed other programmes already in existence?
I, too, welcome the Minister of State and her officials. I commend her and the Government on bringing adult education, particularly from 1997, from the dark ages to the centre of service provision. The figures speak for themselves. The figures since 1997 show an increase of 5,000 participants to approximately 28,000 per annum currently, which is very much to be applauded. I am interested to know if the Department has researched the profile of those now participating. I ask this question in light of the research undertaken in particular by the chief executive officer of North Tipperary VEC on the adult education programmes planned there by the VEC. In their investigation, a serious deficit emerged regarding male participation in adult education, at night classes as well as day classes, and particularly in rural areas, where the VEC is actively trying to reach people who may not even be aware of the programmes available. It is important that where numbers are responding, we also find out where people are not responding and make sure, as Senator Minihan said, that we reach as many people as possible.
That finding was useful for Fís 2020, which is the forward planning strategy for the long-term education programme in its entirety for the North Tipperary VEC. I would like to know if the Department is undertaking the research to see who are the people still not being reached, as we would desire them to be.
On the success of the adult education programme so far, I see ourselves, to a certain extent, as victims of the success. The building unit within the Department, and the adult education sector, would need to keep in close contact and provide the building facilities needed for the expansion of adult education. An example is St. Sheelan's College in Templemore, which amalgamated with Our Lady's College in Templemore. As a result, St. Sheelan's undertook the challenge by the Department to provide an adult education centre. A very successful centre has emerged there and, due to the terrific response of adults in the area, the building facilities are now greatly inadequate. This matter has been raised with the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Dempsey, but it is important that the Department's building unit is fully aware of the success of the Minister of State, because when basic facilities such as toilets are not provided, it causes its own problems. I would like to see this issue addressed.
As for the provision of youth workers, there are towns around the country ^ perhaps not too many, but Nenagh would be one - where we have no full-time youth worker. I know the Minister of State is familiar with this situation and I hope that with the prioritising of funding, issues such as this will be addressed. The Youthreach programmes have been a great success, and provide for a group of young people who may otherwise slip the net and might not be prepared for society and for survival in the real world. It is also important that youth workers are provided for in the same urban centres, particularly where the social interaction of the young people is also addressed, and where, if there is a lack of support, other problems can emerge, such as those of public order and so on. I thank the Minister of State.
I, too, welcome the Minister of State and her officials. The VTOS programme run with the vocational education committees is excellent and gives people a second chance in education. Will the Minister of State tell us if there will be extra places made available on this programme? Will extra funding be provided? The programme gives people a chance to return to school and complete the junior certificate, the leaving certificate and so on. Many of the teachers are in temporary appointments. What can be done to improve their situation?
I thank the members of the committee for their very positive approach to this issue, and for their support. A number of issues have been raised and I will do my best to address them.
Deputy Staunton asked for a copy of the script and I can certainly supply him with that. I thought I was doing everyone a favour by summarising everything, but one can never be fully right. I will send on a copy to the Deputy.
The issues raised most often were the adult learning council, adult guidance and the TV series, so I will address those first. As noted, the TV series has been extremely successful, for a number of reasons. First, people watch it in their homes and therefore do not feel embarrassed, in the way that people without literacy and numeracy skills often do. Very often, as we all know, parents become more aware of this problem when they are trying to help their children with homework. That is why it is important that, as Deputy Crowe said, we look at this in a family situation. It is not good enough just to target the children. If one is going to do something positive about this poverty cycle, we must focus on the family concerned, and help the parents as much as the children. Our approach for adult learners, and indeed the whole literacy approach, is very much based on that ethos.
The TV series was particularly important because not only did it help the parents, but a number of schools which felt that they did not necessarily have major problems, wanted access to the programme, and they took the videotapes. Indeed, many classes took place in primary schools because of that.
There was also the freephone service. A member asked how we could ensure that the information about adult literacy was disseminated. One the best ways to ensure that is through television, a very important medium, but it can also be done by means of a freephone service, which was supplied on foot of this TV process. There were also booklets for those who had the necessary level of ability and skill in reading. In that way, not only were we able to disseminate the information but we were getting feedback on the programme.
Senator Dooley was right in saying the figure of 146,000 was based on TAM ratings, but it was not something taken on cold analysis. We were able to manage things through the freephone service and so on. It is most important that we evaluate all of these courses, whether those offered through TV or any of our other literacy programmes. We evaluate through NALA and through Aontas, because they are given money for research. A very interesting piece of research was done recently by Aontas, which answers directly a question that was raised about the age and gender profile of people talking part in such courses. This research was entitled "Gender and Learning." It showed that there were more likely to be female learners than males on such courses. Many male learners felt stigmatised by the fact that they had a literacy problem and did not want to admit it, especially in the workplace. Therefore, we have to try to come up with more creative ways of bringing that cohort into the educational system.
According to the research, it will be more difficult to get males interested in attending such courses, particularly where literacy skills are concerned. While this research is being undertaken, an evaluation is also taking place. It has to be so, otherwise we would not know how we were progressing and, quite frankly, it would end up as a useless exercise, which none of us wants. Literacy will continue to be a Government priority. Those who pursue these courses are able to improve their skills, want to progress to further education and re-enter educational initiatives. Some of them go on to PLCs and other third level courses.
It is important to ensure that the bridge between all those elements within education are there for adult learners who, after all, are really taking a brave step in returning to education. In most cases their previous experience of education was not positive and that is why they left school, although they may have left for social as much as educational or financial reasons. There is still a negative attitude to education and we have to try to break down those barriers. In order to do so, the question of adult career guidance comes into play, along with the dissemination of information.
I am a former career guidance counsellor and, as it happens, so is the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Noel Dempsey. Therefore, we have a particular interest in the area of education guidance and counselling. There has been an 18-fold improvement in adult literacy since 1997. It is one thing to have that but people must be made aware of the service and we must be able to provide the information, advice and support for them to re-enter education. That is why the question of adult guidance, which was established in 1999, is very important. That guidance service includes advice on the kind of education programmes that are available and which can be evaluated directly with students.
Senator Dooley sought further information on the 25 pilot guidance projects and I will send him that data. We want to provide comprehensive information on adult learning opportunities as well as training in front line guidance skills for adult educators. There were a number of questions on whether or not the fourth phase will be implemented. We want to ensure that this matter is being evaluated properly and that we are going in the right direction. Having a certain experience in this field, I would like to see the matter being progressed. Members of the committee can be assured that I have a natural interest in this issue and we will follow up on it.
A number of Deputies and Senators also raised the issue of child care, which is a key process. Deputy Crowe said it was one thing to have such facilities but if we do not have some practical proposals and supports for people entering the system, they will not be in a position to avail of the programmes. I would be the first to admit that there is a great need for improvement in this regard but good progress has been made recently with regard to the VEC and child care allocations. If we do not support this sector, however, we will find that a number of people, especially single mothers, will not be able to avail of courses. Those are precisely the groups that we are trying to target, so it would be self-defeating if we cannot do so.
I have been advised that there are difficulties with regard to child care in a number of areas. Clare, Cavan, Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, Tipperary, Waterford and Wicklow have highlighted the fact that they are having difficulties with the provision of such services. I am examining this matter currently in the Department to see what can be done to deal with these issues.
Deputy Jan O'Sullivan mentioned that the 2003 allocation was only 63% of the moneys allocated last year. The sum of €2,984,204 being provided in 2003, however, is almost equal to the initial provision in 2002 but it is 63% of the actual payout of €4.7 million last year. That is the position. Some vocational education committees have indicated that they will have difficulty with their allocated budgets. I have named those that have made specific reference to my Department and I am actively reviewing those cases at present.
Community education is another issue that I have prioritised. As members of the committee have mentioned, and as I stated in my opening remarks, some 34 community education facilitators have been trained. They have been appointed to the vocational education committees and it will be up to them to deal with the situation as they find it in their own areas. As well all know, money is not as forthcoming as it has been but, despite that, I want to ensure that people are put in place to do the necessary work on community education. I am glad to say it has been followed through.
Deputy Staunton raised the RAPID programme and asked whether the Department considered the urban areas within that programme in dealing with its proposals and programmes. The answer to that question is a definite "Yes". We are trying to target the most marginalised and the RAPID areas reflect the difficulties, both educational and otherwise, that are being experienced there.
Deputy Staunton and others also mentioned the issue of Travellers. I will be able to send further information to members of the committee on a number of programmes in which the Department is involved. The programmes are aimed at ensuring that assistance is given to Travellers from pre-school age onwards.
The question of language acquisition for immigrants is at the top of the Department's agenda, also. Specific moneys have been put aside to ensure that cohort of the population is looked after in terms of language ability. That is a growing population and we must be able to meet that new need.
Deputy Crowe raised the issue of workplace learning in the context of literacy. This issue has been recognised in the Scandinavian countries and has been dealt with very successfully. However, I do not think the approach that was adopted in Scandinavian countries might necessarily be easily superimposed here but I would agree with the ethos and philosophy behind workplace learning. Deputy Crowe is correct in saying that it is mentioned in sustaining progress. There have been quite positive moves and employers, and, indeed, other stakeholders, have been involved in it. NALA has been pushing this agenda and certainly it is the way to go. I say this because, according to the initial piece of research to which I referred earlier, it is more difficult to get male participants. Often it is better to get the kind of support that is needed for those individuals within the workplace rather than on an individual basis within their community. Therefore, I see that as the way forward.
I was asked about the budgetary concerns and about priorities. I should like to give the committee the overall picture. It is true there have been financial difficulties in a number of sectors in the Department but I am glad to say that overall my side of the Department has received a €13 million increase in 2003 over the 2002 figure. That proves that I have underlined the necessity for increases in this side of the education budget. The Government, the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, and I have put a great emphasis on the importance of helping the disadvantaged in education. The area, for which I have responsibility, deals directly with the marginalised groups in disadvantaged and adult education. Travellers, immigrants and such groups, obviously, need that extra help and I can assure the committee that I will continue to press for further funding.
Many members referred to the importance of greater facilities for adult and further education. I would, of course, like to see that situation evolve. If we are to be realistic, however, we must understand that we do not have the finance to increase, or even initiate, capital programmes for such facilities. I would like to be able say that we can, but for the moment we must ensure that the programmes are in place to give immediate help to those in need of the kind of participation in programmes we have been talking about. Given the budgetary position, that, for me, is the priority at present.
Deputy Stanton, and others, said it would be more positive if there could be proper strategic planning for financing of programmes. That would be wonderful. I would like it for my Department so that I would be able to plan three years in advance and be able to tell the committee what I would be able to do in three years. The reality is that budgets are allocated on an annual basis and, therefore, I cannot give a commitment to any programme three years ahead when I do not know what money I will have at my disposal. In my view that budgetary system will continue.
Deputy Stanton wishes to intervene.
I thank the Minister for her response. I asked when the National Adult Learning Council will be put on a statutory footing, what is the problem and why is it taking so long? Deputy O'Sullivan asked a similar question.
The Minister of State stated that 34 of the 35 community education facilitators have been appointed. This is bizarre. The Minister of State did not indicate what these facilitators will do and seemed to indicate that they have no funding to do anything. What will they do? What is their remit? Will well qualified and highly motivated people be appointed to positions with nothing to do? What funding is available to them? How will they interact with the adult education organisers already in place? Perhaps the Minister of State will clarify this for me.
The White Paper proposed that a further 35 new adult education organisers be appointed, adding to the existing 43. Has that been done or will it happen? I understand these appointments are in addition to the 35 community education facilitators. Will the Minister of State provide a little clarity on the roles of these people; how they interact, what they will do and what funding they have. These are core personnel in this area and this is the type of detail we need to discuss.
The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment has a task force on life-long learning. How does the Minister of State's section of the Department and the National Adult Learning Council interact and engage with the DETE task force on life-long learning? Is there built-in co-operation between the two Departments so that their work does not overlap?
The White Paper indicated that there was a problem with the representation of mature students in higher education and Senator Burke alluded to this. There is a target of 15% by 2005 set out in the White Paper. Will the Minister of State indicate how that is progressing and will it be achieved? What can be done to reach that target? There was also a proposal to establish a higher education mature student fund targeted at this and some €10 million was earmarked for this. Has that been done? If so, will the Minister of State tell us what is happening?
On the National Adult Learning Council, there was a proposal to set up local adult learning boards. The Minister of State did not mention these boards. Have they been set up? If not, when will they be set up or has a decision been made not to do so? The council was to formally convene local community fora through which the views of the wide range of interests could be channelled. This seemed a positive and interesting development. I would be interested to know the proposals of the Minister of State in that regard. Is this happening? If so, how is it progressing?
I am also a guidance counsellor and, therefore, there are at least three of us now in the pot. On the adult guidance and counselling service, the guidance service is in place. Will the people involved in that also have qualifications and training in counselling, which is a different and important discipline? The Minister of State did not mention that and I did ask about it.
Senator Ulick Burke alluded to schools being closed up at night and not being available. It has come to my attention that in many such instances insurance costs are a major factor. Other factors are costs for caretakers and others, and security costs. Has the Minister of State done any research on topic? It would be better to be ahead of the posse on this. If there is a problem regarding insurance and staffing, the Minister of State should introduce measures to deal with it now rather than having to announce in a year that centres had to be closed because of insurance costs and lack of funding for caretakers, security and secretarial services. Those are some additional questions which the Minister of State might respond to in her reply.
I am looking for more clarity on some of the issues which I and others spoke about. With all the guidance counsellors present, I do not know why there was not more clarity in the answer to that question. Deputy Crowe and I asked specifically would the fourth phase of the pilot programme on guidance initiative be rolled out this year and we sought a specific answer. That is what people are concerned about.
I am looking for more clarity on some other issues. On the 37% cut in child care, I know the Minister of State said that the original allocation had not been significantly cut but these programmes are in place in different parts of the country and the people are now being told that the funding will be 37% less than planned. The reality for these people is that it is a cut and they are concerned that they will not be able to run crèches for the various schemes like Youthreach, VTOS and Traveller programmes. They want to know if they will get the money they need to run the crèches, in the autumn. Another question the Minister of State was asked concerned the payment of part-time staff. People need to know whether they will get the funding to pay the part-time staff the extra money to which they are entitled. The same issue was raised yesterday by the Dublin Institute of Technology.
I would like to know when the National Adult Learning Council will be signed into law by the Minister. On child care, I accept everything the Minister of State said about the Department's priority as regards disadvantaged areas and the need to break the cycle etc., but the real question is where will the 37% cut fall. Will it be in the disadvantaged areas? Deputy Stanton referred to 'rapid areas'. Will child care be cut in schemes for 'rapid areas', for instance? Where exactly will the cuts fall? The Minister of State mentioned a number of areas such as Clare, Dublin and so on. People want to know if the cuts will be across the board in those areas or if those areas, recognised as disadvantaged, are to be ringfenced as regards child care. If the Minister could clarify this, it would be helpful.
Deputy Stanton got in ahead of me when I was coming to those questions and I did not have a chance to reply. More than 31 questions were asked and I now believe there are 40-plus. I am doing my best.
There is a good deal of interest in NALC and I believe it will be very important in the strategic approach to adult education. That is why, obviously, we set up a National Adult Learning Council in March 2002, on a non-statutory basis, as Deputy Stanton said. The secretarial services, up to now, have been provided by my own side of the Department of Education. An annual report for 2002 will be presented to me shortly, on the work that has been done. Following the publication of the report of the taskforce on life-long learning, the Government agreed that the National Adult Learning Council should be asked to examine the recommendations and report to a steering committee chaired by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and comprising representatives of my Department, too. It also will involve the Departments of the Taoiseach and Finance as well as NALC. We wanted to get in all the stakeholders in that specific area of education and have the back-up of the Departments of the Taoiseach and Finance.
I will meet the chairman of NALC, Professor Noel Whelan, next week. The current position is that NALC's terms of reference are being discussed. I understand some members of the committee felt these needed to be focused so as to ensure that the work was targeted on that particular body. A number of other agencies are part of that body and we want to ensure that the work is targeted and focused, not duplicated. I propose to assign a principal officer from the Department of Education, shortly, to assist the council in its work. The delay is due to the extent of major structural reforms in the Department, including the establishment of the State Examinations Commission and the National Council for Special Education. I have every intention of moving this forward and we have held discussions with the Department of Finance as regards staff for the National Adult Learning Council. A good deal of work has been done on this. I want to see further work done on it because there is tremendous potential there.
The other question raised, I think by Deputy Stanton, was about the work of the 34 community education facilitators. They are part of the adult education structure within the vocational education committees. They will work in tandem with the vocational education committees. Each VEC, obviously, will have its own particular concerns. The work of the community education facilitators will be based on the needs within their particular VEC areas. Significantly, an important task for them will be to develop networks and links with community education groups, to give extra support to such groups, and to promote and assist their role in the provision of adult education. They will also seek to develop partnerships between statutory and voluntary interests. This is particularly important since we are dealing for the most part with the marginalised in this regard. This will help to focus on and address particular needs.
I mentioned earlier that a training and support service was put in place for the facilitators. There was no question of them being expected to address the type of problems they were likely to encounter, without some training. It is worth making the point again that in introducing the back to education initiative some 10% have been specifically allocated to the community education sector. That recognises a very important need.
I was also asked about the taskforce on life-long learning and the Department of Education's specific role in that. The Department is part of the steering committee to implement the recommendation's of the task force on life-long learning. The chair is with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, but, obviously, we play an important role there, as life-long learning is our remit. A question was raised on guidance and counselling. We all know there is a difference between the two types of service and both are very much needed. At this stage, I see the emphasis being on career guidance as opposed to counselling. There has to be an element of counselling, too, of course, especially in regard to people who are returning to education - which might have been a very negative experience for them in the past - with specific problems, fears and anxieties. The fact they have made the effort to take advice on the type of programmes available is significant. They will, of course, have that guidance, but it will also entail a certain amount of counselling on the approach to be adopted by individuals who take on the programmes. Counsellors will be aware of the student's background and the difficulties he or she may face. That will be very important in the choice of programme to be taken up by the individual.
The mature student is another issue. There was a reference yesterday in the news to Dublin Institute of Technology and part-time teachers. An institution such as the Dublin Institute of Technology is autonomous. Funding from the Department of Education and Science for that body would not come from my sector - it would come from third level.
The same issue pertains within the Minister of State's sector, because part-time teachers have to be paid extra. Does the Minister of State's sector provide funding for the people who employ the part-time teachers so that they can pay the extra money such workers are entitled to under the legislation for protection of part-time employees? It is a new directive which gives greater income to part-time workers.
I am advised that they are providable. The costings have not been finalised as yet.
Will the Department provide the money to the vocational education committees, or whoever employs these teachers, to pay them?
As I said, the costings are not yet finalised. We are obviously talking to the Department of Finance about that. I am not in a position, therefore, to give the Deputy an answer at present.
I urge the Minister of State to give them the finance. Whatever about the Dublin Institute of Technology cutting part-time workers, which is bad enough, if the adult education organisers have to cut part-time workers it is going to have huge consequences across the board. They depend on many part-time people.
The Deputy can be assured that I will make a very strong case on all these issues to the Department of Finance. Our sector needs that help, and we could do with a great deal more money. We were lucky enough to get the increase of €13 million. Obviously it is not enough and we would like far more for all sorts of programmes and to improve existing programmes.
This is a very specific issue which is going to come up again, one that needs to be funded.
There are many issues, childcare being another one. My job is to fight for the moneys and that is what I am attempting to do. On the basis of the finance I receive, I will then have to prioritise. That is why I have highlighted the areas I think are important. We share these areas of importance because they are the areas we discussed this morning. We have seen a significant increase in funding and, indeed, provision of services, particularly over the past six years.
What of the fourth year of the guidance project?
We are meeting representatives from the National Centre for Guidance in Education shortly. We want an update of their current projects. Based on that evaluation, we will then approach the fourth phase. I would like to be in a position to afford that. It has been of great importance, and like many others who are guidance people around the table, I would like to see that being progressed.
I said I would return to the childcare issue. Not all vocational education committees contacted me to highlight a problem. In certain VEC areas, some people said they have no problem for this year, and do not expect any difficulties this year. There have been a number, to whom I referred earlier, who have had particular problems. They have made their case to me. The 63% figure I mentioned referred to the fact that in early July, each VEC was allocated a figure of 63% of the amount they received in 2002. That has obviously caused some difficulties for a number of vocational education committees.
Apart from them saying that childcare is obviously of great importance, we must ensure that single mothers, for example, as in many other cases, have an opportunity to attend such courses. I am now evaluating that, as these representations have approached me in recent days. I want to see what I can do to address at least some of their problems. I am not saying I will be able to do so, but I will attempt to, and I am in the process of doing that.
I asked about the local adult learning boards that were proposed. Has the Minister of State anything to say about those?
This was part of the NALC approach to try to see what we could do at local level. I would certainly like to see that being advanced, but, again, I will have to see what the budgetary position is, and ensure that I will be in a position to advance it. I will have to decide on foot of the budget I receive at the end of the year.
The White Paper also suggested a further 35 adult education officers. We have the community education officers in place, but 35 adult education officers are also proposed. Has the Minister of State looked at that, or has it happened, or is it not going to happen?
There are a number of recommendations in the White Paper and we are not in a position to implement all of them overnight. We have been working very steadily on them and have taken on what we see to be the priorities, and have pushed a number of those recommendations, to which we referred this morning. I would like to be in a position to appoint more adult education officers, but I cannot see that happening immediately, again because of budgetary constraints.
I support Deputy Hoctor in what she said on youth workers. We have said this at many meetings here. It is very important that we have youth workers and out-reach workers for the young adults who slip through the net and are at serious risk. As the Minister of State knows, there is a huge deficit in the youth work area. The provisions of the Youth Work Act 2001 are not being implemented. I know this is something for another day. We had a hearing earlier in the year with people from the youth sector who were very concerned, yet nothing is happening from what we can see. It is having an impact on education, where there is virtually no out-reach.
I am happy regarding the committee of educational facilitators, but not with the Minister or State's statement about what they are going to do. They seem to be networking, and perhaps doing the work of the home/school community liaison workers, at a different level. The Minister of State said they would network and help co-ordinate, which is what those liaison workers do at one level. I am not yet sure what the facilitators' relationship will be with the adult education organisers. I am very concerned that when these people are appointed, they will have something to do, and the funding and back-up to do it, and that we will see something constructive. It would be very frustrating for people to be in offices with nothing to do but hold meetings about meetings.
The Minister of State might leave that matter for another day, because it is a separate issue. She might respond to the question on the facilitators.
The community education facilitators have a very specific role to play on links and networks within the community, and dealing with the statutory and non-statutory bodies. It will be very much the question of the vocational education committees and what they would see as their priorities in their areas.
How will they link with the adult education officers? I know that many of the Leader companies around the country have similar positions and are doing work similar to what the Minister of State is proposing for these people.
They have a specific role. We would have reason to spend the money in other areas if we felt they were not necessary. The role is job-specific. They have to report to the adult education organisers. That is the direct link.
It would perhaps be useful if the Minister of State would give us a briefing on the role of these people.
I will be pleased to do so. On Youthreach, mentioned by Deputies Stanton and Hoctor, and I think by Senator Ulick Burke, I agree with the committee members on its importance. Very often the people Youthreach deals with are the most marginalised of all. When we are talking, it is very often only the importance of so-called formal education that is recognised. Informal education is just as important, particularly in the youth area, because it brings into the system those who are most marginalised and gives them an opportunity to progress.
The aim of Youthreach is to retain young people in school. Its activities are directed at those between 15 and 18 years. Children of 13 who drop out of school are dealt with by the Education Welfare Board. That issue was raised here this morning. I would hope for more healthy retention percentages as a result of Youthreach. At any rate there has been a great improvement in school retention figures as a result of back-to-school completion programmes - the importance of meals in this area was mentioned by Senator Minihan. Breakfast clubs, homework clubs and the like are all very important to include in the school system - without being too formal about it - the young child who might be at work and whose needs might need to be addressed. Accordingly, I recognise the importance of Youthreach programmes and I see them as one of the priorities in the Department.
I thank the Minister of State and her officials. The meeting is now adjourned. We will meet again on 31 July, when the National Centre for Technology in Education will make a presentation on ICT in schools.
The joint committee adjourned at 1.10 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, 31 July 2003.