JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE debate -
Thursday, 14 Oct 2004

St. Catherine’s College of Education for Home Economics: Presentation.

Vice-Chairman (Deputy O’Sullivan)

We are meeting with representatives of the Department of Education and Science, CHOICE and St. Catherine's college. The meeting has been convened to discuss the decision to close St. Catherine's College of Education for Home Economics. On behalf of members of the joint committee, I welcome the representatives and thank them for attending. St. Catherine's college is represented by Ms Madeleine Mulrennan, president, and Sr. Celine Mangan, governor; CHOICE is represented by Sr. Darina Hosey, president of Froebel College of Education, Blackrock, and the Department of Education and Science is represented by Mr. Paul Ryan, principal officer, teacher education section, Mr. Barry Conroy, assistant principal officer, teacher education section, Mr. Tony Dalton, principal officer, third level building unit, and Mr. Aidan Marsden, assistant principal officer, third level building unit.

I wish to draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Ms Madeleine Mulrennan to make the presentation on behalf of St. Catherine's college.

Ms Madeleine Mulrennan

I thank the members of the committee for the opportunity offered to discuss the decision by the then Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Noel Dempsey, to close St. Catherine's College of Education for Home Economics at Sion Hill, Blackrock, County Dublin. In this presentation I will cover the following areas: a brief introduction to the college and the position of the trustees; the consultation stage; the Minister's decision to close the college and, finally, the unanswered questions.

St. Catherine's College of Education for Home Economics on the Sion Hill campus in Blackrock, County Dublin, is owned by the Dominican Congregation of Sisters. The college was founded in 1910 as a Higher School of Domestic Science. In 1929, it was granted recognition by the Department of Education as a teacher training college. In 1978, the college became an associate college of Trinity College and the first B.Ed. (Home Economics) degrees were awarded in 1984.

St. Catherine's is one of two colleges recognised by the Department of Education and Science for providing a home economics teacher education course. The other is St. Angela's College at Lough Gill in County Sligo. In 2003-04, St. Catherine's had 100 full-time students on the B.Ed. (Home Economics) course. This figure is capped annually by the Department. There were 24 full-time staff and nine part-time staff. The State grant to the college in 2003 was approximately €1.9 million.

The future of the two home economics colleges and the question of closing one or other has been an issue since the 1980s. The Department of Education had planned to consider the future in the context of the outcome of the review of the steering group on the future development of higher education. When the committee reported in June 1995, it had not completed the examination of specialist teachers' requirements, including home economics. In May 1996, the then Minister for Education requested that the HEA convene the advisory group on the supply and demand for second level teachers, focusing on the determination of specialist teacher needs outside the H.Dip. programme. The review was completed in June 1998 and it recommended that the intake to St. Catherine's college and St. Angela's College remain at the present level of 53 students per annum.

In 2001, the trustees, in the context of a fundamental appraisal by the Dominican Congregation of their future role as trustees of educational institutions, decided that, due to lack of Dominican personnel and the lack of available funding, they were no longer in a position to fulfil the role of trustees of the college. Having reached this decision, the trustees began discussions with the Department of Education and Science with a view to transferring the trustee role and responsibilities. The Department of Education and Science responded by appointing a consultant, Mr. Jack O'Brien, former assistant secretary in the Department, to advise on the future of St. Catherine's college. The terms of reference were agreed by all the parties involved and the review was carried out with the full co-operation of the college authorities, staff and students.

At the same time the report was being prepared, a major refurbishment programme at Sion Hill to upgrade the college in terms of electrical rewiring and fire safety was under way. A second phase of the project included the complete refurbishment of the food studies kitchens and catering facilities. The total cost to the exchequer was €1.3 million. Such was the positive feeling that the board of governors borrowed almost €250,000 to refurbish the on-campus student residence.

On 22 September 2003, the Minister for Education and Science, Mr. Dempsey, announced the closure of St. Catherine's and the consolidation of all training for home economics teachers at St. Angela's College in Sligo. He said the closure would be phased over four years to facilitate students currently enrolled at the college. Ironically, on the very next day, the last of the contractors who had been engaged at the Department's expense to carry out the refurbishment job finished their work. The board of governors and the trade unions made repeated requests to the Minister for meetings to discuss the decision, but all requests were refused. At the same time, the board asked for access to the consultant's report to seek to understand the basis of the Minister's decision, but this was also refused.

This resulted in an FOI request by the president of the college in October 2003. All requests for the information were refused by the Department through FOI, until the Information Commissioner ruled that the report and other documentation relating to the decision be released.

Ms Emily O'Reilly, Information Commissioner, in her findings in a letter dated 10 August 2004, stated that she regarded the failure of the Department to consider the public interest provisions of the Act a significant omission and a serious defect in the decision making process in this particular case. She went on to say that requesters are entitled to expect that FOI decisions will reflect the provisions of the Act in a way which will allow the requester take a fully informed view on the decision. Regrettably, she said this did not happen in this case.

The college was able to establish the outcome of the consultation phase in the released documents. The consultant, Mr. Jack O'Brien, had reported in June 2002 and recommended that the Department, through the HEA, have discussions with TCD, UCD and DCU with a view to securing the incorporation of St. Catherine's into one of these universities. He stated that he believed that a merger with UCD would be most beneficial for staff and students and would be welcomed by them.

The college could also see the conclusion of the assistant secretary, Mr. Paul Kelly. He stated in an internal memo to the Minister that, having regard to several factors, which he listed, "I recommend that St. Catherine's remain open and that we seek a merger with UCD". Other documents released costed the various options, including a merger of St. Catherine's with different Dublin based institutions and the cost of relocating to St. Angela's with all staff transferring, or none. The section calculated the overall cost of merging St. Catherine's with one of the Dublin universities at €4.6 million, while relocating to St. Angela's, with no staff transferring, at a cost of €3 million. The breakdown is in the documentation supplied.

While these figures indicate a lower cost attached to the St. Angela's option, the document indicates that the figures do not take into account the costs associated with the redeployment of staff into other third level institutions, the Civil Service or the public service. Neither do these figures take into account the €1.3 million of public funds spent on St. Catherine's prior to the decision to close it.

Why was this information not given to the college and the board of governors? Was it because if we had known that the consultant and the Department's official had recommended the college remain open, albeit in a different Dublin-based location, we would have responded differently? Was it so that the college would be actively in wind-down mode before the documentation would be released, thereby making it more difficult to reverse the decision? Was this just a decision made "in good faith" by officials as stated in the final letter from the former Minister signed on 28 September, the day before he left office? I note that the Minister had, in a number of earlier letters, also refused access to the report.

Why did the Minister refuse to meet the college authorities before his decision or since? Why the secrecy and deliberate exclusion from the decision-making process? This in a so-called era of openness, transparency and partnership. What impact did lobbying on the part of politicians and St. Angela's College have on the Minister's decision?

Notes released through the FOI ruling name some of the politicians who lobbied the Minister on behalf of St. Angela's. While there is nothing wrong with lobbying per se the Minister’s failure to meet the trustees or the board and the absence of any document outlining the rationale for his decision to close the college makes one question the impact of the lobbying on the decision. Clearly the lobbying by politicians was at the request of another college and I do not mind saying that I believe the active role of one college to have another college closed down is to be deplored.

The situation in the college today is that there are no first year students, some staff contracts have not been renewed this year and we are effectively in wind-down mode. This is a decision that has very significant implications for existing staff, some of whom are present today, and for potential future students. To date, the Department has not tabled any detailed options for staff. While the staff will continue to deliver the education programme to students to the same high standard, they are individually and collectively concerned for their future. The staff members in St. Catherine's have indicated they do not wish to transfer to Sligo. This will result in a significant loss of expertise. Perhaps the academic staff will be redeployed into other areas or offered early retirement.

There are issues of access for future students. Traditionally, St. Catherine's had the majority of students from the Leinster and Munster regions. Guidance counsellors have already indicated the disappointment of some potential students from these areas as they decide against travelling to Sligo to pursue this course. The decision to move to St. Angela's will continue to deny students "a real third-level campus experience", a key recommendation of the students during the consultation process.

The manner in which the issue of the future of St. Catherine's was handled by the Department of Education and Science and the former Minister, in particular, completely disabled the trustees and the college authorities over the past 12 months. It is unfair to blame the Dominicans because they are dealing with the situation that faces them in the future. The lack of openness and transparency in the process, which is evident in the recently released documents and the refusal to have meetings, shows complete disregard for the contribution of the Dominican Order; the work of the staff; the continued contribution to the education community of highly qualified and excellent teachers; the recommendations of a consultant appointed to advise on the best option for the future and the advice of a senior Department official.

As I am in the Houses of the Oireachtas today I will take the opportunity to say that this approach to decision making, as an example of governance, leaves a lot to be desired, especially at a time when terms like "partnership", "transparency", "shared decision-making" and "freedom of information" trip off the tongues of politicians very freely. Regrettably these elements were most noticeable by their absence and this reflects very poorly on the system of government.

Last week the new Minister, Deputy Hanafin, said in the Seanad that "it is not the job of a Minister to reverse the decisions of previous officeholders". However, several of her colleagues in the past week have addressed what they consider to be bad decisions. We want the Minister to reopen the file on St. Catherine's and to engage with the board of governors and the college authorities to find a way to make good this bad decision. The Minister also said in the Seanad that if there is evidence of future need to train more students at a course in Dublin, she would be open to hearing it. There is a shortage of home economics teachers in schools. Some schools must employ unqualified teachers to teach the subject while others are reducing access to the subject in an effort to cope with the shortage of available teachers.

I will finish by stating that my primary interest in coming here today was to express my belief in the value of home economics. It is a subject that is relevant to all our lives as individuals, parents, members of families and communities. Home economics aims to empower individuals by developing the skill of good decision-making. The key areas of home economics are food, health and decision-making and are central to national issues such as obesity, food safety and food hygiene. We should be investing in centres of excellence in these areas, not closing them down. There is an opportunity to review the situation before it is too late. I thank the committee for the opportunity to present this matter this morning.

Vice-Chairman

I invite Sr. Darina Hosey to speak on behalf of CHOICE.

Sr. Darina Hosey

CHOICE welcomes the opportunity offered today by the committee to discuss the decision of the previous Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Noel Dempsey, to close St. Catherine's College of Education for Home Economics, Sion Hill.

CHOICE recognises the position of the Dominican Congregation of Sisters who have stated that due to lack of personnel and finances they would, in the future, no longer be in a position to fulfil the role of trustees of St. Catherine's college. This communication to the Department of Education and Science led to the appointment by the then Minister of a consultant to investigate the options for the future of the college. CHOICE also recognises the engagement with this stage of the process by the college authorities, staff and students. We regret the manner in which the Minister made the announcement, in September 2003, to close the college without engaging in further discussions or meetings with the board of governors, trustees or college authorities. The manner in which the issue of the future of St. Catherine's was handled demonstrates a lack of partnership, openness and transparency as well as a lack of regard for the contribution of this college to home economics education and to the education community as a whole over a period of 95 years.

CHOICE commends the Information Commissioner's ruling that brought the documentation on this decision into the public forum in August 2004. It enabled us to gain some insight into the manner in which this particular decision was made by the then Minister. CHOICE notes the commissioner's criticism of the Department for its refusal to give access to relevant documentation and for failing to take into account the public interest provisions. The commissioner wrote in her letter of 10 August: "I regard this as a significant omission and a serious defect in the decision-making process in this particular case."

CHOICE views with great concern the omission, in the recently released records, of any rationale by the then Minister for Education and Science to justify his decision to close the college. The consultant clearly recommended that: "The Department, through the Higher Education Authority, would engage with TCD, UCD and DCU with a view to securing the incorporation of St. Catherine's in one of these universities." He further stated that he believed that "a merger with UCD would be most beneficial for staff and students and would be welcomed by them". The Minister's adviser, Mr. Paul Kelly, assistant secretary, in a memo to the Minister recommended that "St. Catherine's remain open and that we seek a merger with UCD". Nowhere in the records is it clear why the Minister decided to close the college or why he did not take on board the advice of both the consultant and the adviser. Neither does the documentation explain why he decided to consolidate all future home economics teacher education at St. Angela's College, Lough Gill, Sligo. These questions remain unanswered today.

CHOICE is also concerned that the proposed closure of St. Catherine's college is the second closure of a college of education in the past two decades. The earlier closure and conversion of Carysfort College from a college of teacher education to a business school was one of the factors which contributed to a teacher shortage some years later. We are concerned that these closures suggest a policy direction with regard to colleges of education that has never been discussed in the public domain.

CHOICE has serious reservations about the loss of the accumulated expertise at St. Catherine's should the planned closure proceed. There are benefits to the whole education community of having more than one centre of excellence in a subject area. We do not need to limit this expertise to one national source. It is the diversity of thought and approach with links to different universities that will ensure cutting edge standards in this subject which is of increasing importance to our health and lifestyle.

CHOICE acknowledges the difficulties faced by staff in the college with regard to the continued uncertainty about the future. Two years ago the Department of Education and Science sent a very positive message to the college when it invested €1.3 million on upgrading the college and refurbishing the teaching facilities. The college now offers a very good working environment for students and staff.

CHOICE asks the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, in the light of the new information, to review the decision of her predecessor to close the college and to reopen this file with a view to examining a broader range of options for the future of the college, as recommended in the various reports and memos. Furthermore, CHOICE calls on the Minister to engage without delay in meeting with the board of governors and college authorities with a view to addressing this matter.

Mr. Paul Ryan

I thank the committee for giving the Department this opportunity to outline its position on St. Catherine's College of Education for Home Economics, Sion Hill, Blackrock, County Dublin. I would like to introduce my colleagues to the committee: Mr. Barry Conroy, assistant principal officer, teacher education section; Mr. Tony Dalton, principal officer; and Mr. Aidan Marsden, assistant principal officer. Both Mr. Dalton and Mr. Marsden are with the third level building unit. I am the principal officer in teacher education section, which is responsible for the overall policy for teacher education and development, including pre-service and continuing professional development or in-service of teachers. The area is also responsible for the funding of some colleges of education, including St. Catherine's.

I want to stress that the Department is well aware that the closure of an institution with a reputation as strong as St. Catherine's has the potential to generate controversy. There is no denying this fact. The Department is now faced with ensuring that the transition towards closure is made as efficiently and effectively as possible while taking all interests into account. I will elaborate on these matters at a later stage.

As members may be aware, St. Catherine's college has a long tradition in the training and education of teachers of home economics. The college was founded in 1910 as a higher school of domestic science and it was granted recognition by the Department as a teacher training college in 1929. In the past, students went into society as domestic science instructors and at the time were a vital link in rural and urban communities, looked up to for their range of skills and knowledge of household matters.

While events have undoubtedly moved on since those early days, the valuable contribution of St. Catherine's graduates cannot be understated. Graduates of the college have gone on to play a vital part in their community and society generally. They have brought broad-ranging skills developed at the college to several generations of young people in our second level schools. The course delivered at St. Catherine's prepares students for a teaching career in home economics, along with their elective subject, in post-primary schools and colleges. The course also prepares students for employment in the special education and continuing education sectors. In addition, employment opportunities exist in a number of related industries.

St. Catherine's college reflects a Dominican philosophy of education which promotes the cultivation of respect for self and others, a sense of community, trust, independence and initiative, and the ability to think constructively, choose wisely and take responsibility for choices. The vital role played by the Dominican Order in shaping the Irish education landscape will always be recognised through its involvement in St. Catherine's college, and also the nearby Froebel college.

Graduates of both institutions have played a valuable role in Irish education for generations and it would not be an exaggeration to say that, through their past pupils, schools throughout the State have benefited from the Dominican ethos to an extent that would have been unimaginable when the order initially became involved in teacher education. This truly is a lasting legacy and one of which to be proud. The Department is fully cognisant of this legacy and is grateful to the Dominicans for their tireless work in education over the past decades. It also recognises and expresses its appreciation for the hard work and commitment clearly shown by the management and staff of St. Catherine's.

St. Catherine's College of Education for Home Economics is a private institution owned by the Dominican Order. The order also owns the nearby Froebel college. St. Catherine's is one of two colleges recognised by the Department of Education and Science for providing a home economics teacher training course. St. Angela's College in County Sligo, which is owned by the Ursuline Order, is the other. The course is of four years duration and leads to a Bachelor of Education degree in home economics awarded by Trinity College, Dublin. St. Catherine's currently has 82 full-time students on the Bachelor of Education course and St. Angela's has 139. In part, this difference reflects the impact of the transitional arrangements made to transfer the first year intake of students from St. Catherine's to St. Angela's for the 2004-05 academic year. It should be noted, however, that St. Angela's has students studying in a wider range of disciplines than St. Catherine's and its overall student complement is 797.

In addition to home economics, the students in St. Catherine's are qualified to teach Gaeilge, religious studies and economics. Currently, there are 29 students in fourth year along with 30 in third year and 23 in second year.

The Department of Education and Science provides an annual grant to St. Catherine's to cover approved Bachelor of Education training course expenditure not met by the college's own income. In 2003, a total of €1.973 million was paid to the college. The majority of this funding, €1.697 million or 86%, was its State grant and the remainder, €276,000 or 14%, was in respect of free fees to students. These amounts represent an increase over 2002 funding. In that year, the State grant was €1.64 million while the grant in lieu of free fees was €264,000. The total allocation for 2004 is likely to be in the region of €2 million.

The future of both home economics colleges and the question of closing one or both, having regard to the ongoing demand for home economics teachers, has been an issue for the Department since the 1980s. In the early 1990s, it had been planned to consider the question of their future in the context of the review of the steering committee on the future development of higher education. The then president of St. Angela's, Sr. Marianne O'Connor, represented the specialist colleges on that committee.

When the committee issued its report in June 1995, it had not completed its examination of specialist teacher requirements, although this area had been part of its remit. The committee recommended, however, that the necessary review and analysis should be pursued further in a joint approach between the Department and the Higher Education Authority.

In May 1996, the then Minister requested the HEA to reconvene the advisory group on the supply of, and demand for, second level teachers with revised terms of reference focusing, inter alia, on the determination of specialist teacher needs outside the higher diploma in education programme. The terms of reference also sought recommendations on the required intake of students by subject area.

The review conducted by the advisory group was concluded in June 1998. This review recommended that the intake to St. Catherine's and St. Angela's colleges of education remain at a combined level of 53 students per annum. This amount represented the annual intake at that point in time which, it was assumed, would meet any future demand for teachers arising from retirements, growth in student numbers and changes in the number of schools offering the subject.

In the context of a fundamental appraisal by the Dominican congregation of its future role as trustees of educational institutions generally, the Dominican trustees of St. Catherine's decided that, for personnel and financial reasons, they were no longer in a position to fulfil the role of trustees of the college. Having reached this decision, the trustees began discussions with the Department with a view to transferring the trustee role and responsibilities.

It must be stressed that the imperative came from the Dominicans. The Department did not precipitate this development in any manner. It simply reacted to a decision taken by the order which, for all intents and purposes, took the Department by surprise. Arising from the trustees' appraisal of their future role, the Department examined a range of options for the future of the college. In exploring the range of options, the previous Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, stated that he also took a number of considerations into account. The considerations in question included the national spatial strategy, the relevant costs in a time of financial constraint, a Government decision to restrict public service numbers, the need to secure value for money and a better allocation of resources. In the final analysis, the former Minister decided that these considerations would be best served by the closure of St. Catherine's and the designation of St. Angela's College, Sligo, as the sole centre for the training of home economics teachers.

On the question of advice available to the former Minister, a former Assistant Secretary General of the Department, Mr. Jack O'Brien, was engaged to contribute a report on the future development of St. Catherine's college. On the strength of this report and the range of options relating to the future of St. Catherine's, advice was provided to the Minister.

Mr. O'Brien's report, which was completed in July 2002, recommended that the Department, through the HEA, engage with TCD, UCD and DCU, with a view to securing the incorporation of St. Catherine's in one of these universities. He indicated that he believed a merger with UCD would be most beneficial for staff and students of St. Catherine's and that this option would be welcomed by them. This view was in accordance with the position taken by senior officials in the Department.

However, this advice and the report were only two elements considered by the Minister when making his decision on St. Catherine's college and the future of home economics teaching in general. As I have already stated, the other elements concerned national considerations of an over-arching and strategic nature such as the national spatial strategy, relevant costs in a time of financial constraint, the Government decision to restrict public service numbers, the need to secure value for money and a better allocation of resources.

The current Minister, Deputy Hanafin, recently stated, in response to a series of parliamentary questions, that she does not intend to reconsider the decision made by her predecessor. This position was also set out in her response to the Private Members' motion in the Seanad on 6 October. The decision has been made and it now stands. The issues facing the Department and all parties involved with St. Catherine's relate to the management of the transition towards its closure and we will focus our efforts in this regard.

It is accepted that this decision has a very significant impact on the staff and students of St. Catherine's. This viewpoint has influenced the Department's dealings with all the parties involved in the college. The current Minister is also very mindful of the impact of the decision on the staff and students. This position will influence her dealings with St. Catherine's college. Members will be aware that the Minister indicated in the Seanad on 6 October that she is willing to meet with the parties involved in St. Catherine's.

Officials from the Department have already met with the trustees of St. Catherine's with regard to making the initial steps in regard to the necessary practical arrangements, including arrangements in respect of the staff of the college. Following a major re-organisation of the third level section in the Department, the newly formed teacher education section was given responsibility for the colleges of education for teacher training, among other areas. Mr. Barry Conroy who is another senior official from that section and I recently met the college management. Arrangements are in the process of being made to hold meetings with the trade unions and associations representing staff interests. It must be stressed, however, that like the meeting with the trustees, these are very much initial meetings. They are the first of undoubtedly many engagements that will occur between staff interests, management and trustees with officials in the Department. As one of the individuals involved in this process, I am willing to meet with all interested parties. I understand the Minister wishes to ensure this ongoing consultation remains in place throughout the transition period. I cannot over-emphasise that the transition period which St. Catherine's is now experiencing will be managed in a spirit of partnership between the Department and all parties with an interest in the college. These parties include the trustees, management, staff, students and graduates. It should be noted that the Minister reiterated this assurance in a recent response to the Private Members' motion in the Seanad. The Department fully understands the difficult position facing the management and staff of St. Catherine's. In this regard I can assure the committee that every practical action will be taken to ensure the transition period will be as smooth as feasible and that staff interests will be protected as much as possible. The Department will endeavour to ensure the impact on the remaining students will be reduced to a minimum as they complete their course of study.

The Minister has also indicated the intention that the closure of St. Catherine's will be phased over the next four years to facilitate students currently enrolled in the college in the completion of their course of training in the college. This is the timescale which informed the former Minister's decision. In this regard, the intake of students for 2004-05 went to St. Angela's College instead of St. Catherine's college. I understand this transfer of students was successful and it is envisaged that future intakes will be as successful.

The Department monitors the situation on an ongoing basis to ensure it operates as smoothly as possible and that the interests of the students are not damaged. By approaching the impending closure of St. Catherine's in a spirit of partnership, the Department is confident the difficulties represented by the decision will be addressed in the best possible way in order to lessen the impact for all concerned, college trustees, management, staff and students. Nevertheless, the Department is acutely aware, as previously indicated, that the movement of home economics education to St. Angela's College places all parties involved in St. Catherine's in a very difficult position. This awareness will inform the Department in its dealings with the parties during the transitional period.

I will be happy to answer any questions raised by members of the committee.

Deputy Enright

I welcome the two delegations and the officials from the Department of Education and Science. Following the three presentations, I am really none the wiser as to the reason for the decision. The Minister signed off on the decision but I would like to know who actually made the decision. The committee has not been made aware of any other advice that may have been given to the Minister and which may be contrary to the advice on a merger with UCD. Was the former Minister given advice on any other options? The former Minister gave some explanations in September 2003 and cited the national spatial strategy. What other real advice did the Minister receive? Is there any written evidence of why and how the Minister came to his decision?

What is the Department's policy on access to education in general? This matter under discussion is an issue of centralisation of service in one venue. I have no problem with the venueand I would be equally opposed to the decision if the centralisation happened in St. Catherine's. It is a centralisation in one area of an educational service which is supposed to serve the whole country. I find it difficult to see how it will work.

Who made the decision and how was the decision arrived at to spend €1.3 million? What criteria does the Department apply in deciding to spend money on refurbishment when a review is also taking place? I do not understand that logic. Would it not make more sense, if a review is taking place, to hold off on the issue? I am aware there were some health and safety issues but I do not think it was solely to do with health and safety issues. What kind of planning and co-ordination is employed before a large sum of money such as €1.3 million is spent? It leaves a sum of €300,000 when one examines the two costing options, taking €1.3 million into account.

I am concerned at attempts to transfer responsibility for the decision on closure to the trustees. I am aware of this situation happening in the case of a second level school in my constituency. The sad reality is there is a fall in religious vocations. I would not like to see a situation or an attitude develop in the Department of Education and Science whereby religious orders are blamed for the closure of schools. I was conscious of that tone being in the presentation by the Department to the committee today. I would like to hear a rebuttal by the Department because I believe it will be evident in the future on other occasions when religious orders are forced, through lack of numbers, to transfer responsibility somewhere. This cannot be used as a means of closing schools. It has already been used in other situations and it is wrong.

The communication of the decision was deplorable. The spirit of partnership has been cited. To be fair to the Minister, Deputy Hanafin, I cannot judge as yet whether she has that spirit but I hope she does. There was no spirit of partnership in September 2003 when the original decision was made. It is all very well to congratulate St. Catherine's on its lasting legacy but as of now, all it will be is a legacy and the congratulations are hollow.

In her address to the committee, Ms Mulrennan stated there is still an inadequate supply of home economics teachers. Does she think the annual intake figure is sufficient for the future development of this subject? On the question of whether the decision can be reversed, the Minister for Social and Family and Affairs, Deputy Brennan, said last week that he would consider reversing the 16 cuts in social welfare if he found they were unfair to people. On the point made in the Department's presentation, it seems the period of financial constraint is not as bad as we all believed a year ago it would be. That is a strong argument for a reversal of the decision. I do not understand how the restriction on public service recruitment is relevant to this. I would like the delegations to explain that. The staff is in place. If it had been transferred to UCD, I do not think we would have been talking about recruiting substantial numbers of new staff. I do not understand how it can be said to be a better allocation of resources because a service is being restricted. Can the delegations explain what it has to do with the national spatial strategy? I really do not understand that at all.

Deputy Andrews

I welcome the delegations to the meeting. I started to participate in the campaign to keep St. Catherine's open late in the day. I became involved in October or November 2003, by which time the college had already been closed. It was partly my fault for not being aware of the issue as it developed. It is regrettable that public representatives in my area did not form a significant lobby at that time to try to keep the college open.

Similarly, the closure of the college, which has made a substantial contribution to education of teachers, is regrettable. The manner in which the decision was taken was also regrettable, as was the failure of the Department to provide the information requested of it. Some of the points I made in letters I wrote to the Department a year ago were made in the absence of the information which is now available. My instinct informs me that the issue will not be revisited. I do not think we will be able to save the college.

Given the nature of the debate on this issue, especially in recent months it seems to be a mantra that Ministers should be bound by consultants' reports, as if they make rulings rather than recommendations. Mr. O'Brien did not consider the centralisation of home economics as a problem in his report, which was made in the utmost good faith. My reading of his report suggests that his recommendations were based on industrial relations issues. The report was published before St. Angela's College made representations. Other items have been added into the mix. Those participating in this debate should be aware that Ministers are not bound by consultants' reports. Many other issues, which may not have been considered by the consultant in this case, have to be taken into consideration.

Lobbying seems to be the black market of Irish politics, in so far as it involves things being done far from the public spotlight. No member of the committee can say he or she made the case for a project in their constituencies while disregarding the merits of the issue. We sometimes make arguments about certain matters simply because they relate to our constituencies, rather than on the basis of the merits of the case. That happens all the time. It is somewhat self-righteous to criticise those who lobbied hard for this. If anything, people in Dún Laoghaire did not lobby hard enough. I regret that I did not make the case strongly enough.

The facts have emerged more clearly. I do not doubt that St. Angela's College has the capacity to take extra students. It is clear that the fact that it can cater for many more disciplines than St. Catherine's, because it is arranged as a campus, was considered when the decision was being taken. It has been argued that there is a need for campus-style education, but those who have attended St. Catherine's have survived without it since 1910. I suggest that students could continue to survive without it. That aspect of the education of home economics teachers will be improved at St. Angela's.

I am glad that the new Minister has undertaken to meet the staff of St. Catherine's. I am glad departmental officials have already met staff to try to improve on the transitional arrangements. The committee should undertake to review the transitional arrangements as they unfold in the next few years.

It is regrettable that the report was not made available under the Freedom of Information Act. Senator Ryan made a serious allegation in the Seanad when he said the Department's freedom of information officer deliberately withheld information under political pressure. There was no basis for the allegation, other than circumstantial evidence. Senator Ryan made his comments under the privilege afforded to him by Seanad Éireann. If he cannot substantiate the allegation, which was a direct accusation against a civil servant, he should withdraw it. Such comments should not be made until one has the facts to bear them out.

I thank the Chair for allowing me to speak and for recommending that the committee should review the transitional arrangements as they unfold in the years to come.

Deputy Gogarty

I welcome the opportunity to speak on something which is vaguely related to GUBU. Although GUBU was before my time, it seems to me that this case smacks of it.

Deputy Andrews said that there was a lack of lobbying for St. Catherine's. I hope Fianna Fáil voters in the Dún Laoghaire area realise that Deputy Andrews is an astute and fastidious lobbyist. Mr. John Walsh wrote in the Irish Independent that there was pressure from top Fianna Fáil sources in the north-west, but little corresponding political pressure from Fianna Fáil Deputies in the Dublin area, with some exceptions such as Deputy Andrews, who said it was ridiculous to close St. Catherine’s having just spent public moneys on it. While I pay testament to Deputy Andrews in that regard, I have to ask questions about his constituency colleague, the Minister for Education and Science.

I am grateful that everyone is here. I suppose it is a testament to democracy that we can talk about skulduggery and using the Freedom of Information Act behind the scenes. It is good that we can thrash it out. I am aware that Deputies and Senators are covered by parliamentary privilege but our guests are not. I am sure they would like to say things in stronger terms but are unable to do so.

Vice-Chairman

I remind the Deputy of the convention that we should not criticise or make charges against a person outside the House.

Deputy Gogarty

Absolutely. I would not knowingly make such a charge, particularly an unfair or inaccurate one. I would love to have a pint, in the Dáil bar or elsewhere, with officials from the Department to get the real story. Friends and colleagues of mine who are officials in various Departments can only say so much. They can never say something behind the Minister's back that would upset him.

Today's presentation by the Department of Education and Science was a deliberate attempt to mislead. The delegation started by trying to lick up to the nuns by raising the issue of the traditional importance of the Dominican order. After sweet-talking the sisters, or patronising them, the Department tried to deflect attention from the current farce by saying that it originally relates to the decision of the Dominican order, taken for personnel and financial reasons, to withdraw from its role as trustees. The Department said it was surprised by the decision and that the investigation started thereafter. It is trying to suggest that the sisters are to blame for not having enough numbers.

The Department then added insult to injury. I ask the officials to respond to the point I am about to make. They claimed that the Minister is willing to meet and consult those involved, but does not intend to change her mind. They continued to patronise the nuns by saying they acknowledge that St. Catherine's is in a difficult position, but it is all about managing the transition. It seems that no form of U-turn is possible. I wish to examine some of these old chestnuts, such as ministerial U-turns. The history of this country is full of U-turns by Ministers. The Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, performed a U-turn this week when he suggested that Fianna Fáil might go into Government with Sinn Féin. We had another U-turn this week from the Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, who had upset his——

Vice-Chairman

I ask the Deputy to stick to the point. There is a time limit on members' contributions.

Deputy Gogarty

All I am saying is that it would not be unprecedented for the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, to do a U-turn, but it certainly would be welcome. Perhaps Deputy Enright would outline what the national spatial strategy has to do with it. Sligo is not being developed into a big city, it does not have a decent rail system, in fact the Sligo rail line is pathetic. There is no western rail corridor and the majority of students currently attending St. Catherine's come from the south, Leinster or the Dublin area.

I have a letter from one of my constituents, a past pupil of St. Catherine's College of Education, who is now teaching in a college in the constituency. She said one of the students who lives in Dublin obtained the points for home economics but declined the offer because she did not want to go from Dublin to Sligo. There is an issue of the "Parlonisation" of policy in the Government. It appears to be a cute hoor approach that will insult half the country in the hope that one will get more votes by sweet-talking the north west. That appears to be what is happening. It is all about lobbying. For example, if one looks at the rail link——

Vice-Chairman

Given the time element, I invite the Deputy to wind up. I can allow him back in later if possible.

Deputy Gogarty

St. Catherine's has access to rail links. It is easier to get from Cork to St. Catherine's than it is to get to Sligo or anywhere in the southern half of the country. Therefore, having two colleges makes sense. Have departmental officials taken into account the cost of paying maintenance to students from Dublin who would have to travel to Sligo? I pay cognisance to the CHOICE presentation in respect of the collective expertise. Does the Department acknowledge that this collective expertise will be gone if all of the schooling goes to St. Angela's College?

As regards the freedom of information skulduggery, the voice of the officials was ignored. As Deputy Andrews has said, the Minister has a right to ignore advice but the UCD merger appeared to be best option put on the table. In the face of a lack of public transport to Sligo and having to shift a number of Dublin, Cork, Wexford and southern students to Sligo, can the officials give any logical reason it makes better economic sense to relocate and centralise in Sligo rather than giving students a choice?

Deputy Crowe

I welcome all the delegations. I note from the Department of Education and Science paper that the Minister is willing to meet the staff in partnership. The presentation from CHOICE notes that the decision demonstrates a lack of partnership, openness and transparency. This raises questions. While the Minister has said she is prepared to meet the staff, she is on record as saying she is not in favour of changing. To an extent, we are returning to the whole question of the partnership approach but if she is not for turning and is not for changing, the meeting will just go through the motions as the decision is made.

I am aware of what speakers have said about other Ministers, in the case of social welfare, who are prepared to look at hardship issues. It is important that the joint committee put on record that we are unhappy with how this decision was made. I accept what the representatives of the departments have said but I do not think the decision was arrived at in a spirit of partnership. Certainly there was a breakdown of partnership.

One of the reasons suggested for the decision was the shortage of funding. How much will the decision to move to Sligo save the Department in the long run? Others speakers have said that while a Minister requests reports from experts, he or she does not have to take their advice. He has taken a bold decision but there appears to be no rationale behind it. In its presentation CHOICE speaks of the lack of rationale in the papers to which it had access. The former Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, said he would not release the information as he believed it would adversely affect the performance of his Department in its functions relating to management, including industrial relations, as stated in The Irish Times. Would the Department officials like to comment on whether they believe that releasing the information would have affected industrial relations? I am not asking them to speak on behalf of the Minister but do they think this explanation holds water? How will the Department respond to the criticism from the Information Commissioner, Ms Emily O’Reilly, in regard to its refusal to release information? She is fairly critical of the Department.

Amalgamating the two colleges may make some economic sense. Would it not make far more sense to amalgamate locally, given that the college is already affiliated to Trinity College? I cannot understand why the Department allocated over €1 million for refurbishment if the college was to close? Given the shortage of money why did the Department proceed with that decision?

Vice-Chairman

Sorry, Deputy Crowe.

Deputy Crowe

There are other questions I wish to ask.

Senator Minihan

I welcome the delegations. I congratulate the Dominican Order on its contribution to education in Ireland. As one who had a religious education I congratulate the religious in general on the tremendous work they did on formulating education in Ireland. We are living in an era when it is easy for people to be critical. I wish to put on record that I am on the other side of the fence in that regard.

I thank the delegations for their presentations. I shall ask a few brief questions. In her presentation, Sr. Hosey referred to new information. Will she please elaborate? Is she saying there is new information that the Minister did not have to consider or new information that came about regarding the decision-making process?

Sr. Hosey

The latter.

Senator Minihan

Fine. I suppose I have a reputation as one who is pro-establishment. I have to say I am terribly uncomfortable over what I have heard on this issue. I am surprised, in light of the criticism from Ms O'Reilly which was very direct and blunt, that it has not been addressed by the Department in its report to the joint committee today.

On the issue of freedom of information and Ms O'Reilly, does the Department intend to respond to her criticism now or at some time in the future? In regard to the decision itself, a Minister is tasked with the responsibility of making decisions. I fully respect the comments made by the Minister, Deputy Hanafin, when she said one will not come into office and start reversing decisions immediately. If we started that process we would never move forward. Having said that, there are serious questions about the decision-making process and how this decision was made. One wonders about the various reports made, the consultants involved, the timing and the funding, all of which have been raised by previous speakers. I do not know what the Comptroller and Auditor General would have to say about expending money on the one hand and at the same time making a decision to close the college. They are serious issues.

How do we move forward? I am not a fan of the centralisation of services in one area or of a person from Cork going to college in Sligo, although I accept we have to be prudent in how we approach such issues.

I am also somewhat taken aback by the reference, perhaps unintended, to the effect that the Dominican Order, rather than the Department, initiated the process to close the college. I regard that statement as a cheap shot — I cannot phrase it in any other language. I was disappointed by the comment because it does not reflect everything else that happened. While the Dominican Order informed the Department that it would initiate a process of transferring the trusteeship and management of the college, it certainly did not start the process to close down the college.

How do we move forward? Ministers are tasked with making decisions and in this case the then Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, made a decision, which is fine. He should come before the joint committee to answer the questions we have asked officials regarding his decision. He made his decision to close the college on the basis of all the information before him and an explanation has been given as to the various issues he considered. It is not for me to second-guess the Minister but perhaps another person would have made a different decision.

The Minister indicated she would examine teacher numbers and other issues. We should try to take something positive from this meeting by concentrating on the small window of opportunity arising from the commitment to examine the number of home economics teachers and their training. I do not see any other window of opportunity in the decision to hold discussions with the college to indicate the extent of co-operation the Department will provide in closing it down. Overall, my contribution is directed at the Department.

Senator U. Burke

I welcome the delegations and the officials from the Department. It is not in anybody's interests to play one college off against the other and any attempt to do so, particularly by Department officials, is wrong. The Department must be in terrible internal disarray, particularly as regards its building unit, the teacher education section and policy makers. We have had reports from Mr. Jack O'Brien, a former senior official in the Department, and Mr. Kelly, assistant secretary to the Minister. Did the sections represented today hold collective internal discussions on the future of the college? There is no evidence that such discussions took place. Every section appears to have focused on its remit, with the building unit making recommendations. Mr. Kelly has taken responsibility.

A week after the Minister's presentation in the Seanad, nothing has changed. The Department's presentation takes precisely the format of the Minister's address to the House. The only difference I discern is the patronising jargon used in the presentation.

I concur with many speakers, particularly Senator Minihan, that the Department is blaming the trustees of St. Catherine's college for initiating the process of closure. That statement is wrong and should be withdrawn. The Minster refused to withdraw that fallacious statement apportioning blame on 6 October and it is time the officials, in particular Mr. Kelly, did the decent thing and withdrew it. I believe they know it is wrong. If not, the presentations they have heard today demonstrate that to be the case. It is time the matter was addressed.

The Department does not appear to be aware that we have untrained home economics teachers in our schools. What information is available to the various units in the Department? Is it also under wraps? Does nobody have access to it? We have a shortage of fully trained home economics teachers and many part-timers. The science and home economics curriculum overlap and the latter is only partially taught. Pupils take certain modules in the subject and forego others, which is not good education. If we are to stand behind the education process at official level, we must do it in full, rather than in part. We must not select some modules to be taught by professionals and science teachers, while ignoring the practical aspects of the curriculum. The Department highlighted this issue several years ago and indicated it would correct the problem of students doing home economics as an additional subject and using their experience in biology, for example, to complete the major element of the syllabus, while ignoring its practical side. As a result, they are able to pass the examination in the subject.

The Minister stated she would meet the parties involved. This is another misconception as she will do so with one agenda in mind, namely, closure. Meetings are of no use if this is the agenda. Will the Department be more flexible? Does it understand it is playing with people's lives? Professionals employed in St. Catherine's college are being told that the college will be closed so the only item on the agenda of the proposed meetings is to retire them. That is not good enough. I fail to understand how the officials are able to stand over the notion that this reflects transparency in the Department.

On what basis was the decision to close the college taken? Did consultation take place with staff? What was the role of the then Minister? Did he make his decision and leave it to officials to implement it?

Vice-Chairman

Before Deputy Stanton makes his contribution, I congratulate him on his elevation to the Fine Gael Party Front Bench. On behalf of the joint committee, we regret that he will, I presume, leave the committee and I pay tribute to his valuable contribution.

Deputy Stanton

I thank the Chairman and appreciate her kind words. As I must assume the Chair in the Dáil shortly, I may not hear later contributions. I welcome the delegations. The Department stated the decision taken by the Dominican Order to transfer the management of the college took it by surprise. If the order had not made this decision, would everything have carried on as previously? The statement appears to imply that the Department had no plans to make any changes, wind up the college or withdraw support from it until it was informed of the Dominican Order's decision.

If the officials do not have the relevant figures to hand, I ask them to forward them to me. How many home economics teachers are employed as teachers? How many are due to retire in each of the next five years? How many home economics teachers does the Department intend to recruit over the next five years? What is the Department's vision or view of policy towards home economics as a subject? Graduates were referred to in glowing terms in the presentation. I agree with that view of them. Reference was made to the cultivation of respect for self and others, a sense of community, a sense of trust, independence, initiative and the ability to think constructively, choose wisely and take responsibility for choices. These are valuable life skills indicative of the ethos fostered in St. Catherine's and St. Angela's.

As a former teacher who has taught alongside many home economics teachers I have found them to be fantastic people. The graduates of these colleges are unbelievable. The work they do and the sense of responsibility they inculcate into their students is invaluable. I am not sure if the Department's officials are aware of this, if they have been in the schools and seen the valuable work they do and the fantastic tradition that exists in both colleges. One of these colleges will now be lost, wiped out at the stroke of a pen without any apparent educational reason. The Department has given a number of reasons, but from what I can see these are overarching strategic issues. No educational reason was given in the presentation. Surely that should be paramount. There does not appear to be any sense of the loss of tradition and ethos on the part of the Minister or the Department.

In one of the other presentations, the assistant secretary of the Department, Mr. Paul Kelly, recommended that St. Catherine's would remain open and that it should seek a merger with UCD. How did the decision come about? Who made the decision to close the college? I would like to get a name. Committee members would be interested to hear how the decision was arrived at in the Department. I am also concerned at how the Freedom of Information Act was used. I am not implying there was anything wrong but the Information Commissioner was strong in her views and this may need to be looked at.

The issue has wider implications for society. Yesterday we had presentations from the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, CROSSCARE in Dublin and the Combat Poverty Agency. They spoke about food poverty in Ireland. We heard that thousands of children go to school every morning with no breakfast. Many families do not know how to manage food properly. Surely we should be expanding the role of home economics in schools and looking on it as a valuable life skill. What are the Department's future plans for this subject? I contend that every child should do a home economics module. It is crucially important as a life skill. There are problems with obesity and the intake of sugar and salt. One could go on. For children who come in contact with a home economics teacher from St. Angela's or St. Catherine's their quality of life improves dramatically because they learn real skills that will stand to them for the rest of their lives.

I am concerned about overall education policy. School children are involved in a rat race for university points. We are getting away from education for life.

Deputy Gilmore

I am not a member of the committee and I thank the Chairman for facilitating me. Senator Minihan asked me to convey his apologies. He had to leave to chair another meeting.

My interest is that the college is located in my constituency. My principal wish is that it should remain open. My concern is for the staff and students of the college. This was the home economics college for people living on the east coast and they will now be deprived of that facility. I pay tribute to the work done over the years by the congregation of Dominican sisters, both in regard to this college and the other educational facilities they operate in my constituency. I understand their reasons for seeking to transfer the trusteeship of this college.

I very much regret the comments made by Mr. Ryan who stated that the imperative came from the Dominicans. He stated the Department did not precipitate the development in any manner, that it was simply reacting to a decision taken by the order, which for all intents and purposes took the Department by surprise. That is post hoc justification for a decision to which the Department did not subscribe. This constitutes dumping it on the Dominicans. It should not have been included in a formal submission to the committee and it should be withdrawn.

I do not see any statement to that effect in any of the documents released under the Freedom of Information Act, the submissions made to the Minister or Mr. O'Brien's report. I do not see any reference to there being an imperative that the college close or any comparable kind of language. It is wrong to subsequently attribute this decision to the Dominican Order. That allegation should be withdrawn.

As I said, my interest is in keeping the college open. I hope the new Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, a constituency colleague for whom I have enormous respect, will change the decision, notwithstanding the comments she made in the Seanad. Ministerial decisions are changed all the time. One of the advantages of having a Cabinet reshuffle is that new Ministers can get out of the hole dug by their predecessors. The former Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, has a particular record in this area. He made a decision that there would be directly-elected mayors but that decision was reversed by his successor. He also made a decision to introduce electronic voting which had to be reversed by his successor. Since the reshuffle we were told the decision on the sale of Aer Lingus would be reversed. If it is big enough or important enough and enough noise is made about it the decision will be reversed. The same principle ought to apply to a relatively small college. Decisions are often reversed by new Ministers when they take over Departments. I hope my constituency colleague will revisit this decision.

Can Mr. Ryan tell us if there is any document which makes the argument for the closure of St. Catherine's college? I have read through the submissions which Department officials made to the Minister. I read Mr. O'Brien's report a couple of times. I cannot find any argument for the closure of St. Catherine's college in any of those documents. Is there any document or slip of paper showing advice given to the Minister stating any argument for the closure of St. Catherine's college?

In his submission, Mr. Ryan referred to the advice given by the Department and Mr. O'Brien's report. He stated this advice and report were only two elements considered by the Minister, who rejected the advice and the report's recommendation in making his decision. As I stated, other elements concerned national consideration of an overarching and strategic nature, such as the national spatial strategy, relevant costs in a time of financial constraint, a Government decision to restrict public service numbers and the need to secure value for money and better allocation of resources. Given that these considerations are the only ones that remotely resemble a reason for closing the college, will Mr. Ryan explain how the merger of the college, located in the north west and serving the north and west, with another in Blackrock, serving the east and south, squares with the national spatial strategy, particularly considering that the strategy refers to the growth of the eastern and southern regions? I would have thought the current arrangement represented a fairly balanced regional distribution.

Am I to understand from the Government decision to restrict public service numbers that there will be no extra staff in St. Angela's College to accommodate the new arrangement? Has the Department approved such staff or is it to do so?

All the submissions made to the Minister make their arguments on financial grounds, bearing in mind that there are references to industrial relations and staffing implications. These latter issues ultimately come down to money in that they involve paying redundancy packages, income continuance etc., as I know as a former practitioner of industrial relations. If those were the reasons the Department was advising the Minister not to close the college and amalgamate it with UCD, can Mr. Ryan shed any light on how the decision was made on the basis of financial constraints, value for money and resources?

I take some comfort from the Minister's remark in the Seanad that if there is evidence of future need to train more students at a course in Dublin, she will be open to it. I take a positive view of this and I would like if it could be built upon because there is a need to train more students through a course in Dublin. In my constituency work I come across the absence of coping skills, particularly among some young parents. The need to train more teachers of home economics seems to be self-evident.

Vice-Chairman

I thank all my colleagues for their contributions. I, too, pay tribute to the graduates of St. Catherine's and St. Angela's. From my experience, I note that they have made a tremendous contribution to education.

I wish to focus briefly on the Minister's statement in the Seanad and consider the future of the college. Deputy Stanton asked some questions on the number of home economics teachers. Can the Department delegates furnish us with the number of untrained home economics teachers in the system? Do graduates of St. Angela's and St. Catherine's work in adult education? Are there many home economics teachers working in the VEC system or is there a need for more?

In light of the Minister's quotation in the Seanad and the other points that have been made about the ministerial decision, will the Department representatives outline the cost, staffing and resource implications of maintaining St. Catherine's college, if a decision were made to maintain it in the next year? I know the college did not admit students this year. Will Ms Mulrennan respond to that also, in light of her experience in the college? She would have an idea of the implications.

Mr. Ryan

Many comments have been made and questions asked and we will try to answer as many as possible. As I said and as the Minister said in the Seanad, we are not in any way blaming the Dominican Order for the developments that have occurred. All I am saying is that the imperative for the discussions on the transfer of the trustee role and responsibilities came from the order's decision to withdraw. The decision was based on personnel and financial reasons, which precipitated the process in which we are now engaged. The order has done much great work over the years.

Deputy Gogarty

Is Mr. Ryan saying the order is responsible? He seems to be saying he is not blaming it, because blame is a vicious word, but he is still saying the closure would not have happened without its withdrawal.

Vice-Chairman

Allow Mr. Ryan to continue.

Deputy Gogarty

I apologise.

Mr. Ryan

I will clarify this because it is an important point. I am not blaming the order or saying it is responsible. It just happened. I am merely saying the order reappraised its involvement in educational institutions. It was no longer in a position to fulfil it existing role and that gave rise to discussions with the Department on the transfer of the role.

Many of the points made relate to the Minister's decision and the reason therefor. As I stated, Jack O'Brien, a former assistant secretary in the Department, was given the task of considering the future options of the college. A report was produced in July 2002 and advice on policy was provided to the Minister.

As the Minister said in response to parliamentary questions and in the Seanad, the former Minister obviously read the report and considered the advice but he had a number of other considerations, including the national spatial strategy, financial constraint, public service numbers, value for money and allocation of resources. He made his decision on this basis. One of the documents that was eventually released as a result of the FOI case, albeit to the president of the college, Ms Mulrennan, was the Minister's note in this regard. No document came from the Department arguing that the college would be closed. The Minister considered the report and the advice given to him and made his decision, which was announced in September 2003.

I do not have at hand the number of home economics teachers who are untrained. I will get the information and send it to the committee. I am quite sure that graduates work in adult literacy and in VECs. I do not have further details but am sure the president of St. Catherine's will have more information.

On the cost and staffing implications of maintaining St. Catherine's, the budget for this year is €2 million. Obviously the cost is far greater because the Dominicans contribute some funds. We will supply whatever figures we have on this matter to the committee.

The former Minister set down on paper his decision and it is not my place to comment on the merits of his considerations. On the national spatial strategy, we have two colleges that were merged into one, centralising in Sligo. It was also stated in a number of representations that, apart from St. Angela's College, there was no third level college above a line drawn from Galway to Dublin.

Deputy Enright

What about LIT and GMIT?

Mr. Ryan

I was referring to the university sector. Of course we have Sligo IT, Letterkenny IT and Galway-Mayo IT.

The Minister said in the Seanad that if there is evidence of a future need to train more students at a course in Dublin, she would be open to hearing it. I and the other officials are willing to meet representatives involved with St. Catherine's and we will be glad to hear any evidence they have and pass it on to the Minister straight away. Home economics is an important subject as illustrated by the fact that 15,000 students sat the leaving certificate examination this year and in the context of the ongoing debate about obesity, fitness and diet. Deputy Stanton also referred to the issue of food poverty as highlighted by the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. I do not have any information on the Department's vision or policy in respect of home economics, but we can provide it. It is one of the more popular subjects and we would like to see it continue to grow in importance. If there is a greater demand for teacher training in Dublin, as the Minister stated, she is open to re-examining the issue.

I was not involved in the decision on the recent freedom of information issue. However, I gather from the media reports that the decision was taken in good faith by the officials. The reason they gave, as quoted by the Information Commissioner, was that to release the documents in question would have had a significant adverse effect on the performance of the Department, including on industrial relations. The Information Commissioner criticised the Department for taking this decision, however, the Department does not normally comment on the Information Commissioner's decisions in regard to FOI cases and I presume this is the position in regard to this case. I do not know more than that.

Senator Ulick Burke suggested that the Department was playing one college off against another. I certainly did not say that and it is not the impression I wish to give. The decision was taken to close St. Catherine's and move the students to St. Angela's. It was not a case of the Department playing one college off against another.

The Senator also referred to what he described as the disarray in the Department of Education and Science between the building and policy units. My colleague, Mr. Dalton, will speak about the building refurbishment shortly but, as far as I am aware, these works were undertaken for health and safety reasons. They were of an urgent nature and were carried out on that basis.

Mr. O'Brien is an outside consultant. He was not working in the building unit at that time. He was simply asked to examine a range of options for the future and to produce a report. Mr. Paul Kelly is a senior official in the Department who offered his advice to the Minister on the basis of that report and, having considered the issues, the Minister made his decision based on those reports and other considerations.

Senator Burke also described the Minister's willingness to meet people as a hollow promise since she already had an agenda and would not change her mind. However, the Minister stated that, if the evidence suggested more students should be trained in Dublin, she would be open to hearing it. One could argue that meetings requested by various parties did not occur but at least the Minister is now willing to open discussions and meet people.

It is important to discuss the transitional arrangements as the Senator suggested. Many people working in the college have concerns about their future. My main concern is that we meet the management, staff and trustees and make the transition as soon as possible to look after the interests of the staff as well as the students.

Mr. Tony Dalton

I can understand Senator Burke's impression that the Department was in disarray and that while one section was funding the health and safety refurbishment of St. Catherine's, another was considering its closure. However, that is not the case. The figure of €1.3 million was mentioned as having been spent on works at St. Catherine's from 1999. Some €1.2 million of that figure related to essential urgent health and safety and kitchen upgrades. They were not elective, rather they had to be undertaken in order to comply with food and fire safety legislation.

The college authorities could comment on this matter better than I. The age of the college militated against compliance with food safety regulations. One of the kitchens was 70 years old while the other was 50 years old and I understand no significant investment was made in the intervening period. There was no alternative to the work that was badly needed to comply with basic regulations.

Mr. Ryan

Deputy Andrews said the committee might review the transitional arrangements and we have no problem attending future hearings in that regard.

Ms Mulrennan

In regard to the implications for costs and staff were the college to remain open, I refer the committee to the report prepared by Jack O'Brien, which stated that the acquisition of the premises would cost €4.4 million. The report is now a couple of years old but we all know that, given the location of St. Catherine's, €4.4 million would be a very good deal for the Department. The trustees were not in it to make a quick buck. Rather, they were interested in handing over trusteeship. Mr. O'Brien also goes on to state that other necessary improvements could bring that cost up to between €5 million and €7 million depending on the condition of the building when fully examined. That is the real cost. I do not yet have the figures for this year but I am reliably informed the annual cost is approximately €2 million.

The 1998 report, which examined the needs of home economics at second level, is out of date but a decision was taken to cap at 53 the number of students coming into the two home economics programmes. Several members have pointed out that home economics teachers are involved across the community in adult and continuing education, prison education services, Youthreach and back to work initiatives. Everywhere there are learners, there are home economics teachers. There is a shortage of teachers about which we all know and, if I had the money in the morning, I could prove that. Unfortunately, however, the Department would not accept my figures. Therefore, it is up to the Department to re-examine the genuine need for home economics teachers. Principals telephone me every other day asking if anyone is available because they are on the verge of dropping the subject.

The last permanent post in St. Catherine's was in March 1999. All the posts arising after the trustees put their case to the Department in 2001 were on a temporary basis. I am going into my fifth year as acting president and several of my colleagues have spent four and five years on temporary wholetime contracts. It begs the question of whether the Department had plans for the future of St, Catherine's two years prior to the trustees putting their position to officials.

We are all concerned with health and safety and most of the investment in St. Catherine's could be classified under that heading. However, if there was no investment in some of these kitchens over a 70 year period, as stated by Mr. Dalton, despite the fact that requests were made for funding and upgrading over the years, why wait until the year before someone decides to close it, to make the investment? It shows that the left hand did not know what the right hand was doing. Deputy Andrews spoke at length about lobbying. I offer no apologies for not lobbying or contacting TDs in the constituency to brief them. We engaged in an agreed process with the Department. The trustees, the college authorities and the Department agreed the process and the terms of reference. We circulated them to one another to ensure they were agreed before anyone saw them. We did it as agreed, we did not go another route. I regret it, and if I have taken anything from this, it is that I should pay more heed to Deputies and Senators.

Sr. Hosey

I am representing CHOICE, not the Dominican Order. Across the country, since 1978, the religious have been transferring trusteeship to other agencies because we saw the writing on the wall. Numbers were going down and we had to be responsible in passing on trusteeship, not only of our colleges of education but of our schools. Many of those are much further on. I was taken aback, therefore, that the Department was surprised at this situation because it exists in all sectors. The primary sector has passed successfully into other trusteeships, work is being done at secondary level and we must look at colleges. We are an endangered species.

Deputy Enright

The Minister made a decision based on the five criteria. Was the Minister given formal advice? I am not questioning the competence of any adviser but these are major areas and one person could not know everything about the national spatial strategy and the financial constraints. Did the Minister decide this himself? We should write to the Minister to express our concerns about the way the decision was made and to ask for a review of it.

Deputy Gilmore

I thank Mr. Ryan for clarifying that there was no written submission to the Minister making the case for the closure of St. Catherine's. Can he confirm that the only written argument for the closure of St. Catherine's is contained in the Minister's notes in the document dated 18 July, which is the last memo to him?

Deputy Gogarty

On the Minister's statement that the national spatial strategy was a factor in influencing the decision, was there any added value in choosing Sligo? Was it because St. Angela's was already there? Was a cost-benefit analysis carried out into the cost of maintaining students from across the country and their travelling costs? Is there any anecdotal evidence that students from Dublin will be less likely to study home economics given the inaccessibility of Sligo?

Senator U.Burke

If the situation is reappraised in the light of what has been said today and each unit got its act together, the Minister may see things differently.

Mr. Ryan

The Department did not have plans in March 1999. It was common practice at that stage to offer temporary positions in colleges. It occurred in St. Catherine's, St. Angela's and other colleges and universities. It is difficult to get sanction from the Department of Finance for full-time posts in academic positions. That is the practice in the Department of Education and Science as well. Currently, 20% of our staff are in acting or temporary positions. The Department did not take a devious decision in March 1999. It is regrettable that people are employed on a temporary basis but that is the practice in the Department of Education and Science and other Departments and agencies.

On the lack of co-ordination in investment in health and safety, as my colleague, Mr. Tony Dalton said, the facilities had to be updated for health and safety reasons. It was a coincidence that the process developed between the trustees and the Department simultaneously.

Sr. Hosey asked why it took the Department by surprise when religious congregations throughout the country are withdrawing from schools and colleges. I meant that the decision on St. Catherine's took us by surprise. Obviously the order has been withdrawing from schools since 1978 and it is working smoothly.

From the documents released under the Freedom of Information Act and our own checks, there was no piece of paper advising the Minister to close St. Catherine's. The only document we have is the Ministers record of the decision on the five considerations.

I do not know what was in the Minister's mind when he chose Sligo. It was probably because St. Angela's is there. No cost-benefit analysis was done for the cost of students coming from Dublin. There was a cost-benefit analysis of the options set out by Mr. O'Brien, such as the Department buying St. Catherine's, amalgamating with another college or moving the home economics training facility to Sligo but the costs for students travelling or living away from home were not investigated.

In reply to Senator Ulick Burke, if the presentations are sent to the Department and a case is made, the officials will go through them as directed by the Minister. As I said earlier, we are willing to meet everyone involved.

Ms Mulrennan

There is anecdotal evidence that people have chosen not to go to St. Angela's. I have a letter from a student in Alexandra College who started in St. Angela's but unfortunately, due to illness and difficulty travelling, she felt her needs would not be met in Sligo. Many students used the change of mind slip during the summer and decided not to go to St. Angela's as a result of the costs and transport difficulties. Those changes of mind are not recorded so that is anecdotal evidence.

Vice-Chairman

I thank all the witnesses for their contributions. There are two proposals, one from Deputy Andrews and one from Deputy Enright. I suggest that we deal with those at the next meeting of the committee, if that is acceptable, on 4 November.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.30 p.m. sine die.