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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE debate -
Tuesday, 17 May 2005

Draft Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse Act 2000 (Section 5) (Specified Period) Order 2005: Motion.

The meeting has been convened to consider a motion concerning the Draft Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse Act 2000 (Section 5) (Specified Period) Order 2005 which was laid before Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann on 13 April 2005 and referred for consideration to the joint committee by both Houses on 5 May, with a requirement to report back to both Houses not later than 19 May. Copies of the text of the draft order, together with briefing notes from the Department, have been circulated to members.

I invite the Minister for Education and Science to make a presentation on the subject matter of the motion.

The chairperson of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse, Mr. Justice Seán Ryan, wrote to the Department of Education and Science last year requesting an extension of the term of the commission in order that it could continue its work and deliver its final report as mandated in the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse Act 2000. Mr. Justice Ryan has indicated that this extension will provide him with ample time to complete his work and prepare his report for publication.

The Government became concerned during 2002 with the difficulties the investigation committee of the commission was encountering and the prospect that as a result of these difficulties, it was unlikely the commission would be in a position to publish a comprehensive report until 2011 at a possible cost of the order of €200 million. To address this, the Government requested the Attorney General to conduct a review of the commission's operations with a view to identifying measures that could be taken to address the difficulties and enable the commission to deliver on its mandate in a shorter timeframe and a more cost effective manner. In addition, the Government requested Mr. Justice Seán Ryan, while he was chairperson designate, to conduct his own review of the commission's operations with a similar mandate.

The Attorney General and Mr. Justice Ryan presented their reports to the Government and both reports were published in January 2004. The reports pointed out that for the commission to achieve its mandate, some sections contained in the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse Act 2000 would need to be amended. The Government broadly accepted the recommendations contained in both reports and published the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse (Amendment) Bill on 24 March 2005. The Bill has completed Second Stage in the Dáil and the Select Committee on Education and Science will commence Committee Stage following this meeting. The Government is confident that with the proposed amendments to the legislation and changes in the workings of the commission's investigative committee, the commission will be in a position to conclude its work within this extended timeframe.

At this point the confidential committee of the commission has completed hearings with 1,060 applicants and has only a further 36 to hear. It hopes to complete this phase of its work shortly and present its report to the commission later this year.

The investigation committee has held a series of public hearings into the emergence of child abuse. In this regard, the Taoiseach, former Ministers for Education and Science, Deputies Micheál Martin and Michael Woods, and officials of my Department have all given evidence to the committee regarding the background to the establishment of the commission. The aim of these public hearings was to establish on a historical basis how child abuse as an issue emerged in the State. The committee has also called witnesses from other State Departments, the congregations and the various survivor groups.

In addition to the above public hearings, the investigation committee has commenced hearings into specific institutions, commencing with St. Joseph's, Clonmel, in September 2004. Hearings on St. Patrick's Industrial School, Upton, took place in October 2004; on Our Lady of Succour Industrial School, Newtownforbes, in January 2005; on St. Patrick's, Kilkenny, in February 2005; and on St. Vincent's, Goldenbridge, in March 2005. The committee has also recently commenced hearings into St. Conleth's, Daingean.

A major change proposed in the remit of the investigation committee is the obligation placed on it to investigate every allegation of abuse submitted to it. The committee intends now to call as many witnesses as it requires to conduct its investigation. In addition to this the committee will be able to hold joint hearings where more than one victim of abuse of a particular institution wishes to give evidence.

Further to these changes the rules on the admissibility of historical records are to be amended to allow the admission of certain documents to be accepted as prima facie evidence of the statements they contain and to avoid the need for the authors of these documents having to appear before the committee.

Under the terms of section 5(5) of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse Act 2000 an order to extend the term of the commission must be approved by both Houses of the Oireachtas. I request the members of the joint committee to consider this matter with a view to agreeing to the motion and to enable the commission to pursue its mandate. It is important for victims of abuse, many of whom are in their later years. It is also important that the undertakings given by the Government in 1999 on behalf of the people are honoured, that this regrettable episode in Irish history is recorded — fully, accurately and fairly — and that the commission inquiry is brought to a satisfactory conclusion for all concerned, but most especially for the survivors.

I welcome the Minister and her officials. The Minister mentioned that the original inquiry would conclude by 2011 at a cost of €200 million. Assuming everything in the proposed legislation is enacted, what is the timescale and the likely cost? Regarding the motion, what date is it expected to end?

Our estimate is that by concluding everything within three years the cost would be €69 million rather than the €200 million which is mentioned. The motion is due to go before the Dáil this Thursday and will run for three years from next weekend.

I too welcome the Minister and her officials. I have no problem with this extension. Will the Minister confirm that the necessary resources will be made available? When Ms Justice Laffoy, the former chairperson of the commission, repeatedly brought it to the attention of the Department from June 2002 onwards that there was a need for more resources, for parallel hearings and for other changes to be made, she got very little response. In view of the commission's history it behoves this committee to ensure the Department will provide the necessary resources to allow the commission to complete its work.

I am committed to ensuring Mr. Justice Ryan gets all the resources he needs. The extension is about more than cost. By speeding up the process we can ensure people do not die before they get the chance to give evidence and that people who want to give evidence get the opportunity to do so. It is, therefore, important for them as well.

I welcome the Minister. Will everyone who was abused in State institutions get the opportunity to tell his or her story?

People who were in residential institutions over which the State had a supervisory role will get an opportunity to tell their story.

Could the Minister repeat that?

Everybody will get the opportunity to be interviewed. Not everybody will go to a full hearing.

Everybody will get an opportunity to tell his or her story. Does that include day pupils?

Everybody who made an application, including those who were in day schools, will be heard.

I may have misled the committee. When I was asked about costs, I did not include the figure for the projected administrative costs as well as legal costs. The total will be approximately €100 million. I apologise.

Does the figure of €69 million relate to the legal costs?

Did the original figure of €200 million include both legal and administrative costs?

Yes. This will halve the costs.

And halve the time.

It will halve the time.

I thank the Minister and her officials for attending the meeting.

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