JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE debate -
Thursday, 19 Oct 2006

Science Education: Presentation.

Chairman

On behalf of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Education and Science I welcome Seamus Ó Donghaile, chairman of the Irish Science Teachers Association, ISTA, Pádraig Ó Léime, convenor of laboratory technicians, Paddy Daly, treasurer of the ISTA and Mark Glynn of Pharmachemical Ireland.

I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege and that this does not apply to witnesses before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any persons outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I ask Seamus Ó Donghaile to commence the presentation in behalf of the Irish Science Teachers Association.

Mr. Seamus Ó Donghaile

My name is Seamus Ó Donghaile, I teach at Scoil Mhuire, Strokestown, County Roscommon, and I am also national chairman of the Irish Science Teachers Association. I am here with Pádraig Ó Léime, convenor of laboratory technicians, Paddy Daly, treasurer of the ISTA and Mark Glynn of Pharmachemical Ireland.

I welcome this opportunity to speak to the Joint Committee on Education and Science. The Irish Science Teachers Association is a voluntary association founded in 1961 with around 1,200 members. Our members come from primary, secondary, third, corporate and technical levels, and we have 17 branches throughout the country.

The main aim of the association is to provide support for science and technology education in Ireland. A range of activities is organised by the association, including quizzes for both junior and senior cycle students, the production of resources and meetings with external agencies. The association has representation on many National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, committees and provides support for teachers and technicians.

We produce a journal, Science, three times a year and we organise an annual conference for our members. Today we want to discuss two issues, both of which have been highlighted in the task force recommendations, with particular reference to laboratory technicians. My colleague, Pádraig Ó Léime will now speak on the laboratory technicians issue.

Mr. Pádraig Ó Léime

I am the deputy principal in Carrick vocational school, County Donegal. In 1999 I was seconded to the physics in-service team on the introduction of the new physics syllabus. During that time I covered counties Leitrim, Donegal, Mayo and Sligo along with 18 schools in Dublin which gave me an opportunity to meet science teachers and visit schools. The lack of laboratory technicians in schools was an issue that arose constantly. During that I time I started a master's degree on this topic and found that no research had been conducted on it in this country. I knew laboratory technicians existed in fee-paying schools and felt that this was wrong.

During this period three significant recommendations relating to laboratory technicians were made. The International Council for Scientific and Technical Information, ICSTI, said science teachers are often excessively burdened with the management of laboratory and technology facilities and that assistants should supervise laboratories. The NCCA, in a document of September 2000 called Science and Technology Education in the Senior Cycle, stated that schools should have laboratory and workshop assistants or technicians. In 2002, when I was halfway through my research, the task force on the physical sciences recommended that all post-primary schools developing a science plan should receive funding for the provision of technical assistance and that this should be in place before the 2003-04 academic year. A recurrent figure was given relating to the cost.

My research first consisted of gathering the available literature in this country on laboratory technicians, which proved to be none. I turned my attention to Northern Ireland and the UK where there is a great deal of research on the work and role of laboratory technicians. In terms of qualifications, they all have national vocational qualifications, NVQs. In July 2004 a revised NVQ called the laboratory and associated technical activities national vocational qualification, LATA, was launched. A good deal of work has been done by groups such as the Consortium of Local Education Authorities for the Provision of Science Services, CLEAPSS and the Association for Science Education, ASE, which is a UK sister organisation of the ISTA.

I wish to address the role of laboratory technicians. Last January Ms Margaret Kelly of the Department of Education and Science said to this committee that the main argument for laboratory assistants is the need for preparation at the start of class and then clearing up afterwards. This is not what we are seeking. As a science teacher, deputy principal and parent I wish to state that I do not want such a laboratory assistant in my science rooms. I want a person with knowledge of science and the relevant qualifications. Our association feels that such a person must be more than someone to wash up.

Five functions of a laboratory technician have been identified but I will refer only to two. The first is to maintain a safe working environment. This is crucial. One wants that extra pair of hands. In many schools, science laboratories are shared and teachers must complete their wash up and leave the room before another teacher can come in. At that point, one is leaving oneself open to slips and upsets.

The fourth function is the most crucial of all. It is to support the learning process of science education for students. This is what we are really about. We are trying to upgrade the skills of students by giving them more opportunity to carry out practical work. Members will be aware that syllabuses have been revised in recent years and there is an increased emphasis on practical work. To achieve this, someone who will support the process must be put in place. We will later outline why, for other reasons, principals see laboratory technicians as worthwhile.

The third point relates to the realistic possibility of having proper practical assessment of students. I am not referring to written papers, which is currently the norm. Students are not being allowed to show the skills my colleagues and I are imparting to them in the science laboratory. We can deal with anecdotal evidence of this later.

When I completed the research my first recommendation was, needless to say, that there should be at least one laboratory technician in every school. I would also suggest there is a crucial role for the institutes of technology in the training of technicians. They are geographically dispersed throughout the country and the heads of science department in the ITs have shown some interest. A national steering committee should be set up to drive this.

In my research, I found 16 schools with laboratory technicians and 11 of them were non-fee paying. I was fascinated by this fact. There was a wide geographical spread with technicians in schools, with Limerick, Dublin and Cork — in that order — having the greatest number. There was a ratio of seven female technicians to every male; 75% were between 30 and 50 years old; and they worked an average of 21.5 hours per week. All except one had a science qualification, and that person had spent two years in college but did not complete the examinations.

What were the responses from teachers, principals and technicians? One teacher who had a technician said that it was abundantly clear through meeting colleagues during in-service training that teachers have serious problems in finding time during the school day to prepare labs. This teacher felt that given that practical work is now so central to junior certificate science, it is impossible to have a smooth running science department without technician support. Another teacher said that carrying out experiments increases student interest. If we want to increase student interest we need to be able to conduct practical experiments consistently.

One technician said that she would not have considered returning to work full-time but found the role to be appropriate. She knows of other qualified female technicians of her age who would love to return to work as school technicians. I got 12 responses from the 16 principals I contacted. I asked them what benefits they got from employing technicians. The responses indicated better ordering systems, less waste, more recycling and money savings. Improvement in safety standards, greater and more efficient use of facilities and resources were also noted. One principal said that technicians were necessary and not the luxury they seem.

When I completed the research, the association felt there was a need to support existing technicians and ten of the 16 attended our first meeting in January. They had never met before, but found it to be of great support. We have made provisions in our annual conference for technicians and have forged links with other bodies; speakers from England and Northern Ireland spoke at our annual conference.

In April 2006, the ASTI carried out its own survey of science teachers. One of the most striking findings was that 91% of those surveyed felt they needed laboratory technicians. Further research shows that 19 schools now have technicians.

Mr. Mark Glynn

I represent the pharma-chem industry. We have 52 members, multinational and indigenous companies, that account for 85% of the industry in Ireland. Therefore, I speak on behalf of practically the entire Irish-based industry. We contribute almost 45% of Ireland's exports. We paid €1.1 billion in corporation tax alone in 2005; that is enough to pay the wages of every post-primary teacher in the country. Science also supplies graduates to the ITT, the medical devices industry and the food and drink industry. This is why we support the ISTA on almost every initiative in which it is involved.

The Government has produced its 2006-13 strategy and seeks to increase the number of students studying leaving certificate chemistry and physics to 20% of the annual cohort. That is an increase of 50% on the current figures. The Government is investing €650 million through SFI. Everyone knows that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. However, if the graduates are not being produced — and the weakest link is second level — all this money will be wasted. This needs to be put into perspective.

The task force report that Mr. Ó Donghaile alluded to stated that €178 million was need to fix — and I use the term loosely — science in Ireland. Of this, €18 million was required to put a lab technician in every science room. At the same time, the Department of Education and Science said that it did not have money available to fund it. One Department had allocated €650 million, while another did not have €18 million and yet they share the same goal. At the same time, the Department of Education paid €16 million to update some laboratory facilities and conduct teacher training for the new physics, chemistry and biology services. If teachers were asked their preference between a two-day training course and a technician working with them, they would choose the latter.

Investment must be targeted. A year after that report, the Minister for Education and Science, after constant communication with us, said the Government would pay half if industry paid half. We were extremely annoyed about that comment because we are here to employ, not to educate. It is the job of the Government to ensure the skills force is available.

We surveyed our members. Ten of our member companies, representing the large multinationals and the smaller indigenous companies, each puts an average of €100,000 per year voluntarily into science communication. We will run a conference for guidance counsellors next week. We sent eight teachers to the United States this year and will send four teachers there next year. We run a variety of training programmes for teachers and students. We pump a small fortune into education and it is about time the necessary investment was made by the Department of Education and Science.

The Government strategy for 2006-13 states it will double the number of postgraduates. At present, many foreign nationals are coming to this country to fill that gap. However, the gap will only get bigger and we cannot rely on foreign nationals all the time. We must produce the home-grown talent. It is a no-brainer. A laboratory technician is vital. I mentioned the conference for guidance counsellors we will hold next week. That is based on the constant liaison between ourselves and the Institute of Guidance Counsellors.

If I need to phone Pádraig or Seamus, I must rely on their class timetable because they do not have a full-time representative. Science and engineering have superb facilities up the road but there is no input from second level because the teacher must get time off from teaching classes. If the Irish Science Teachers Association had the support that, for example, the Institute of Guidance Counsellors has through secondment, that would be a tremendous benefit not just to science teachers, but to the economy.

A total of 45% of our exports come from the pharmachem industry. If we are so reliant on the science industry, we must support science teachers. I appreciate that people will say that home economics and geography will have to be given technicians and that the sciences will be put at an advantage. However, at present, they are at a disadvantage. If one is a geography student doing the leaving certificate, one will get 20% to 35% of the marks before stepping in the door. The science student gets nothing; everything is at the last minute. Science students must be put on a level par, at least, if not given the advantage so they can build on the knowledge-based economy, which is the goal of the Government.

Chairman

Thank you. We must interrupt proceedings because a vote has been called in the Dáil Chamber. We will suspend the meeting.

Sitting suspended at 12.13 p.m. and resumed at 12.29 p.m.

Mr. Ó Donghaile

Science education in Ireland has undergone extensive curricular change and revision over recent years and has received financial support, which Mr. Glynn talked about earlier. Much of this was done in the name of doing increased experimental work in the science laboratories. Science students are at a disadvantage compared with other subjects because practical work is not being assessed. This is clear from appendix 3 of the task force 2002 report.

The introduction of a practical examination for junior certificate science this year led to increased numbers and better results. However, the one measure, the appointment of a laboratory technician to each second level school, that would make a certain difference has not been contemplated. The answer, that we cannot afford to do it, no longer has much credence. The question we ask is: can we afford not to do it?

The ISTA plays a pivotal role, having members from all levels of science education and industry. All our work is done on a voluntary basis and we feel strongly that we should have a member working full-time for the association. I thank the Chairman and the members of the committee for giving us this opportunity to discuss the science laboratory technician issue and the issue of the appointment of an ISTA member to a full-time position.

Chairman

Unfortunately, another vote has been called in the Dáil and we must suspend for 15 minutes.

Sitting suspended at 12.32 p.m. and resumed at 12.47 p.m.

Chairman

Members may ask questions but I ask the witnesses to provide a written reply to them because we will not have time to hear replies.

Deputy Enright

I have taken on board the point made about laboratory technicians and I agree with the comments made in the presentation in that regard. A total of 19 schools employ such technicians but how are they funded? Do the boards of management raise funds or is money transferred from another budget to pay for them?

With regard to student take-up of science at junior certificate level, should it be a core requirement to ensure 100% participation at that level? Funding was provided to implement the junior certificate syllabus a few years ago. What proportion of schools has adequate facilities? I have visited a number of schools with inadequate facilities. Do the representatives have information in this regard? I cannot obtain information from the Department and perhaps they have had better luck. What are their views on the availability of all science subjects in schools? One third of schools cannot offer all science subjects at leaving certificate level but they should be available to all students.

Will the delegation comment on whether the curriculum is hands-on enough? Good changes have been made to the junior certificate. I was advised there are more than 30 mistakes in one of the manuals but I do not know whether it is the manual for teachers or students. If the representatives could let me know before Tuesday, it would be very helpful because I have tabled a parliamentary question on this. It does not make sense that there should be mistakes in the manual. Is the science curriculum overcrowded at both junior and leaving certificate level? Is the problem that teachers need the facilities to teach it properly? Will the representatives comment on the perception that the marking system for science is more difficult? Is that a problem or is it mere perception? What should be done to address that issue?

On the level of professional development for teachers, Mr. Glynn spoke about two days away training, but they would probably prefer to have laboratory technicians. That is fair enough, but we must ensure teachers get professional development training. Does more need to be done, particularly in terms of making the programme more innovative and exciting?

Finally, will the association send us in its views on whether e-learning and the Internet can be better used in the sciences?

Deputy O’Sullivan

I thank the association for its clear presentation. I take on board the point that we need lab technicians in schools. In that context, the group spoke about the need for ITs to provide courses. If we agreed tomorrow that we would have laboratory technicians in schools, are there enough available or do we need their phased implementation? If we need a phased implementation should we talk initially about clustering schools? How can we implement this move in practical terms or should it be done over time?

Mr. Ó Léime spoke about practical work for the leaving certificate. Does the leaving certificate assessment system need to change to bring a focus to this and how would it be done? Would teachers assess their own pupils? Has the association any ideas on that? I was interested to hear that Limerick appears to have the most lab technicians. Our visitors probably cannot tell me the schools with these technicians, but is this because of the significant multinational industry in the Limerick area and because the university is quite science orientated?

Am I correct that providing lab technicians would cost €18 million?

Mr. Glynn

The cost would be €18.5 million.

Deputy O’Sullivan

Presumably, that is an annual cost for salaries in the main.

Mr. Glynn

That was the figure in 2002.

Deputy O’Sullivan

It was mentioned that much research was done on this area in the UK and Northern Ireland. Have any conclusions been reached in that research or can the science association tell us where we can see it?

I was talking to a maths teacher and public representative from Scotland last night about interactive white boards and the use of that technology. Does the association see such technology as a factor or feel we are behind our neighbouring countries in this regard? These boards seem to be common in Scotland.

Deputy Hoctor

I welcome the group to the committee. I am familiar with the call for the provision of lab technicians for secondary schools and have supported it in the past in this committee. I was not a great science student, but I might have been better if I had learned more by doing rather than from the book. It is essential that lab technicians are provided in every secondary school. We have met resistance from the Department on this issue and were given all sorts of reasons they could not be made available, for example, that woodwork and domestic science teachers, etc., would then look for practical assistants. This has resulted in us not doing anything to help. I have been critical about this within my party and I raised the issue during our think-in in Westport recently.

When Department officials came before the committee in January they expressed the Department's enthusiasm with regard to revising the syllabi. I understand the first students of the revised junior certificate syllabus were assessed in June 2006. At the meeting the officials pointed out that in the mid-1980s, 20% of students took on chemistry and physics. The 2004 figures indicate that only 15% take physics and 14% chemistry now.

There is a direct link between the syllabus and the reduction in numbers taking these subjects. Students live in a competitive world, particularly in school where there is competition between subjects. Of all subjects, science needs to be experimental and experiential. It is important that science students learn through experience, not from books. They need to experience and the process must be assessed and marked accordingly. Some IT companies have produced CDs on which students can watch somebody do an experiment on their computer. This is not the same as preparing the equipment required and doing all the things necessary for an experiment. It is not easy in this day and age for a teacher to do these preparations effectively when he or she has to watch a class leaving a room and prepare for a class coming in and ensure equipment is in place.

Various Ministers have been admired for their attempts to bring science more to the fore in students' lives. I attended an event last year which encouraged women to participate in science and encouraged more girls to take on science. The Department has also taken initiatives to encourage greater take-up of the subject. Nevertheless, the vital link is missing, namely that science must be experiential and experimental at school level or too many students will be lost from it. Other subjects are IT related and give students a quicker response, rather than their having to try to imagine an experiment from a book.

I understand how teachers can be discouraged from assembling the equipment required because it is so much easier for them to work from the book when they do not have the necessary supports. How do we rate in comparison with other European countries in this regard? We should push the proposal for more lab technicians. The Department has given the excuse that other practical subject teachers will also seek technicians and assistants, but it must start somewhere and that somewhere should be with science.

If we do not continue to support science in second level schools we will face serious deficits in engineering and other areas. Representatives of the Royal Society of Engineers appeared before the committee two years ago and it was alarmed that fewer and fewer students were taking physics because of evening and part-time jobs, which were more attractive than spending time studying physics. If we do not provide those with the brains with experience and experimental work in science, we will lose out.

Deputy Crowe

I welcome the delegation. Will the group comment on the decline in the number of boys taking science subjects? Does the Young Scientist award contribute to making science popular with young people and how can it be developed to encourage greater participation? In that regard, perhaps we could send a congratulatory note to the young girl from the Chairman's part of the country who came third in the European Young Scientist competition.

The association members spoke about a contradiction. On one hand we push the sciences and the notion of high-tech jobs and invest significant amounts in the area, but on the other we do not invest at the lower level. Is it a help that science is now a subject at primary level? Most people feel science education should be more practical. The delegation referred to not wanting glorified "washer-uppers". I can understand that point of view; they are technicians who want to promote technicians. How many technicians and lab assistants are currently in schools? What is the difference between them? I know there is a difference in that one is qualified and one is not. Is the unqualified person a glorified washer-upper? This seems to be dismissive of lab assistants and I presume that is not the intention of the delegation. The message we get from many teachers and others in schools is that there is a difficulty when it comes to moving from one class to another and clearing up after experiments. What research should be undertaken by the Department? The delegation referred to the task force and the non-implementation of many of its recommendations. We can all see that there is a gap. It is worrying that fewer students are choosing that path even though it is a pivotal area for jobs in the future.

The delegation referred to research which showed 16 schools. Is this the delegation's own research? It seems that very few schools responded.

Mr. Glynn

The figure is 752 nationwide post-primary schools and 16 have technicians.

Deputy Crowe

There was reference to the links established with technicians in the North and in the UK. How often do you meet them? The delegation spoke about employing a full-time worker in its organisation. Does it envisage this post being funded by the Department?

Deputy Stanton

I congratulate the delegation on the work done so far. Have the views of second level students with regard to science been canvassed? I was a teacher for many years and I still have links with many schools. Many students say they find science boring as it is currently taught in many schools without the use of experiments. I know of some schools where no classroom experiments are taking place. The students in those schools tell me that science is boring and they plan to give it up after the junior certificate. This should be the most exciting subject in the school and it is now the most boring.

Has the Health and Safety Authority been involved at any level? A teacher in a classroom may be using chemicals and trying to manage and maintain discipline in a class. That teacher may then have to clear up after the class and be expected to take another class immediately afterwards or else not have enough time to clear up and decide not to bother. As the school is a workplace, has the Health and Safety Authority any role to play?

I ask for the delegation's views on science at primary level and the progress being made in that regard. It is important to catch youngsters at an early age to encourage them when they are enthusiastic and this is in fourth, fifth and six classes. It is unknown how many budding Einsteins we are allowing to slip through our fingers because of the appalling situation where the excitement of science is not being communicated in the schools because of the lack of support for teachers.

Chairman

I invite the delegation to respond to the questions put by the members. They may also respond at a later stage.

Mr. Glynn

We can answer some of the questions now and respond fully to all of the questions later.

Chairman

It may be best to give an answer to any of the questions to which you are able to respond and supply the other information to the committee secretariat when the information is collated.

Mr. Glynn

I will answer with regard to science at primary level while the other members of the delegation will deal with the other questions.

The introduction of science at primary level is definitely to be welcomed. As the Deputy said, the earlier they are taught, the better. However, we are only as strong as the weakest link in our chain. If 90% of the students are studying science at junior certificate level and 13.6% are studying chemistry at leaving certificate, this shows where we are losing them. I cannot take away from the progress that has been made at primary level science but we need to address that transition. The numbers studying physics are also low, with 14.1% in this June's examination. Nearly the full cohort of students, at 90%, studying science falls back to 13% and 14% at leaving certificate. This is proof of a definite problem that needs to be addressed.

Mr. Ó Léime

I will answer the questions about numbers as referred to by Deputy Crowe. Except for my information, there is no database of the number of schools with laboratory technicians. I used the links of the association and the nation-wide branch system and I rang schools. I found out by word of mouth. I found 16 schools at that stage and I subsequently found three more and there may be others. I am aware of another school in Limerick which is hoping to recruit one. Limerick and Dublin have the most — about six or seven each, with four or five in Cork, one in Donegal, two in the midlands.

Deputy Hoctor

Can Mr. Ó Léime tell the committee how these posts are funded? I know that some of the schools are fee-paying. Is the Department paying for any of these posts?

Mr. Ó Léime

I did not ask that question when doing the research. However, a number of technicians volunteered to me what they were being paid and where they thought it was coming from. There was no problem with the fee-paying schools. With regard to the other schools, various means were used. Where the boards of management and the principals thought it was worthwhile, they either diverted funds from their general budget or they used fund raising. I do not think I am telling any secrets out of class when I say that the average pay I heard from those who did volunteer the information was approximately €15 an hour. This is above the minimum wage. Not all technicians volunteered that information and I will just leave it at that. This was the average figure I was given.

If the €18.5 million is divided by the number of schools in the country, the figure is approximately €25,000. I do not know how the task force came up with that figure in 2002. They used a system but I am unsure how they did it.

Mr. Glynn

I will deal with two points. With regard to information technology and the availability of electronic whiteboards and laptops, several organisations demonstrated the usefulness of such equipment to teachers at the ISTA annual general meeting. However, the funding is not available. IBEC made a proposal by way of ICT Ireland to the Minister for Education and Science for a discount on the provision of laptops to teachers but this was dismissed out of hand. The availability of learning through the Internet should be taken up at all levels of education. However, we need to consider that a teacher may not have a home computer.

On the number of students studying science and the difficulties a principal has justifying running a class, the national average is 13.6% studying chemistry to leaving certificate, which would be 13 in a class of 100. With the change in demographics that is happening, anybody from the CSO would say we will nearly halve the number of 18 year olds in a 12-year period. Halving the numbers would result in only six or seven people studying leaving certificate chemistry. A principal cannot justify having one teacher for six or seven students,

Deputy Hoctor

Some do though, at enormous cost to the school.

Mr. Glynn

In my view that shows foresight on the part of the principal. However, the knock-on effect is that the school will not offer chemistry the following year or in subsequent years.

Mr. Ó Donghaile

Further to a point on availability made by Deputy Enright, in some small rural schools only 40 students might go from third year into fifth year. Perhaps only four out of the 40 will want to study chemistry. Very few principals in the country will pay a teacher to take a class of four. The same applies for physics. It is a serious problem.

The Deputy asked whether junior certificate participation was a core requirement. The answer is no. A number of schools, for example in my area, offer science as an option. They do science in first year and all students have the option of giving up science at the end of first year in that school. It is not a core subject.

Deputy Enright

Do the witnesses believe these are reasons for the low uptake?

Mr. Glynn

Teachers need proper support. Of the 90% being dealt with, we need to get them right first and then worry about the other 10%. If we get them right first, more students would study chemistry and physics to leaving certificate. There is a gap that needs to be addressed. There is no point in bringing in an extra 10% and making an extra 10% dissatisfied and turned off science.

Deputy Enright

I presume that having laboratory technicians is not the only answer.

Mr. Glynn

No, the report commissioned by the Government made €178 million worth of recommendations. If one goes through them and ticks them off one would see the majority of them have not been actioned.

Chairman

I ask the witnesses to come back to us on any outstanding issues and we can take it from there. I thank them for attending today. We had a useful exchange. We know the position and the actions the witnesses require. There is major concern about science in second level schools.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.13 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, 2 November 2006.