JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE debate -
Thursday, 14 Dec 2006

Agricultural Education Provision: Presentation.

Acting Chairman (Deputy English)

Members should be aware that mobile telephones should be switched off rather than switched to silent mode as vibrations adversely affect the broadcasting transmission. Our meeting today is with representatives of University College Dublin to discuss current activities and future plans with regard to agricultural education provision. On behalf of the joint committee, I welcome the delegation.

I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or any official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Dr. Philip Nolan to commence the presentation on behalf of University College Dublin.

Dr. Philip Nolan

I thank members of the joint committee for their invitation to attend this meeting and look forward to an interesting discussion. I am joined by Professor Maurice Boland, head of the school of agriculture, food science and veterinary medicine at University College Dublin, and Professor Alex Evans, chair of the agricultural sciences degree programme board, the body which manages our undergraduate educational programmes.

I will make brief comments because my colleagues are the experts in this domain. University College Dublin is unique among Irish universities in having programmes in agriculture and veterinary medicine. This sets us apart from other universities which do not offer courses in either of these disciplines. For this reason, these disciplines and the synergy between them are of particular importance to the university. The school of agriculture, food science and veterinary medicine is one of UCD's largest and most important schools. The university has only two other schools which approach its size and scale, namely, the schools of medicine and business. The school is strategically important to the university because it uniquely serves the economy and national development. I will hand over to Professor Maurice Boland who will discuss the presentation, copies of which have been circulated to members.

Vice Chairman (Deputy O'Sullivan) took the Chair.

Professor Maurice Boland

I will give members some background information on the direction we expect agricultural education to take and the major issues facing agriculture over the next five to ten years. I will also set out what the school of agriculture, food science and veterinary medicine does at the level of undergraduate and postgraduate programmes and its interaction with industry.

In recent years, major changes have taken place in agriculture at a global level. Traditionally, agriculture is viewed as being concerned with food and fibre. Fuel is a third important issue facing agriculture at the production and educational levels. Globalisation has also become important at the production and marketing levels in agriculture. Consumers have an important role in that they are seeking healthier foods, ready-to-eat products and functional foods. As a third level institution, University College Dublin must be proactive and anticipate the areas in which changes will take place in the next five to ten years. This is not an easy task.

The school of agriculture, food science and veterinary medicine wants to establish strong links with industry and ensure the quality of graduates it produces meets its requirements. In recent years, specifically in 2004, we undertook a significant review of our programmes. A substantial proportion of industry was involved in this process in determining the type of competences our graduates would need. I will return to this issue.

The school is also aware that students must be able to compete with other students both nationally and internationally. An increasing number of graduates will probably move into international markets. One of the issues facing the school of agriculture, food science and veterinary medicine is that students interested in agriculture are becoming increasingly heterogenous. Whereas almost all our students came from an agricultural background 30 or 40 years ago, that position has changed significantly in the meantime. The school has changed to meet the needs of these students and now produces a large number of graduates in different programmes.

In addition to an omnibus entry programme, the school offers nine undergraduate degree programmes. For example, an animal and crop production programme, which relates to what would have been described in the old days as general agriculture, focuses strongly on the production system. The school also offers more specialist programmes such as animal science in which students focus less on production and more on science. We are also introducing a new programme, animal science with equine science, to allow students to major in equine science. The school also offers programmes in food science, engineering technology, food and agribusiness management, applied environmental sciences, forestry and horticulture. In the face of challenges elsewhere, the school is examining what are known as steady state numbers in the programmes. It has undertaken considerable marketing and has between 600 and 700 students across the agricultural programmes.

In 2005, the school introduced a new system, led by the registrar, called UCD Horizons. Under this system, the four-year agriculture programme will have 12 modules per annum, including core and elective components. In the elective programme, we are interested in allowing students to choose areas such as business outside the bachelor of agriculture science degree programme. There are good reasons for offering students this choice.

In terms of the skills and competences of graduates, as these are bachelor of agriculture science degree programmes, it is our information from elsewhere that foundation scientific principles are needed to underpin each programme. Specific technical knowledge in a specific area is also required. Written and oral communication skills are necessary. We need graduates to be able to solve problems, think creatively and be analytical in their evaluation of a particular problem. They must also take ownership of particular projects.

It is clear from the review we have undertaken that students need strategic and business planning. This area has not featured in programmes but the school is considering its introduction. The most important requirement for employers is to have life-long learners. Graduates who start work with an employer are beginning their careers and need something else. We have started to focus more on learning outcomes, by which we mean ensuring graduates are able to explain, interpret and analyse specific problems. We are examining innovative ways to impart this type information to them.

The school has carried out a number of reviews into what happens to its agricultural science graduates. We are satisfied that they are held in high regard in industry and are well fitted to take up employment immediately after graduation. Between 60% and 70% of graduates enter employment directly after graduating, while the remainder return to postgraduate studies either at masters or PhD level or take time out to do some travelling.

The presentation sets out several of the areas graduates of the school enter. Some join business, do postgraduate courses, become advisers, take jobs in the area of nutrition, communications, journalism and so forth. This is testament to the fact that our graduates are well equipped to enter employment after graduation.

The second matter about which I wish to speak is postgraduate studies, for which in the region of 30% to 40% of students opt to undertake. During the 12 to 18 months of a taught master's degree course students increase their depth of knowledge but carry out very little research. A research master's degree course is a self-learning process in which students do more research than in a taught master's programme. Such courses are also completed within 12 to 18 months.

A third category of postgraduate course is a PhD course, a doctorate in philosophy, in which students get involved in significant research. The value of a master's course is that students can delve deeper into a particular area which gives added value. They learn to critique the findings in other literature much better. They also get a chance to hone their communication and writing skills. Accordingly, their employment prospects are greatly enhanced. In recent years most of the graduates employed by the Department of Agriculture and Food have either a master's degree or a PhD, which shows those qualifications have added to the value of the students concerned. PhD studies allow students to become much more specialised. The area of knowledge they study is narrower and more in-depth.

In its restructuring process UCD has set up a number of graduate schools which will offer students further specialised courses during their four years' PhD study. Like other courses to which I referred, this structured PhD course will have a credit based system associated with it. There will be a formal transfer mechanism to the final stages of the course. Each of the students on this course will have to develop their own research and professional development plan which provides further training.

One of the services we offer is continuing professional education. We can provide courses to order. If an individual involved in industry or the Department of Agriculture and Food asks us to provide upskilling courses for staff, we can produce them. We can offer courses for educational purposes and credits for those individuals who wish to build up a number which will eventually take them on to a master's degree. We can run courses at times to suit the recipients. In almost all situations the preference is for courses to be offered over a short period of time such as one or two weeks. I will not go into this area in detail but several examples are provided in the handout of courses we developed to suit the Department of Agriculture and Food or industry.

We have significant national and international links. I have focused on the national links, one of which is with Teagasc. We are involved in a number of joint research programmes. Many of our graduates become involved in the Walsh fellowship programme operated by Teagasc and we find them to be really good. We have signed a memorandum of understanding with Teagasc to help develop the programme. We also have significant links with the Department of Agriculture and Food, other Irish universities and, as I mentioned, interaction with industry in getting feedback on our work or, in certain situations, having some of our graduates work with industry during the period of their master's course. This can be extremely beneficial for both the university, graduates and the industry.

I will conclude on that point. If there are further questions, we will try to answer them.

Deputy M. Moynihan took the Chair.

Deputy English

Are percentages available on the jobs taken up by the class of 2006? Is it a case of one graduate going to each place? I presume it is not. It will be interesting to see how many end up working as farm managers? I would like a breakdown of the professions entered by graduates. It will be interesting to see how many end up directly associated with farming.

Do job placements and work experience form an integral part of courses? If so, how important is this aspect? We are encouraging this approach in other areas of education.

One of the aspects highlighted as being of major significance for agricultural education is that consumers are more interested in ready meals. The development of value added products has become increasingly important in the market. How well are students being prepared for this reality? Is the school of agriculture focusing on two distinct niches, namely, intensive large-scale farming and part-time farming? It appears one is either an extensive or a part-time farmer now; the medium-sized farmer is almost a thing of the past. Is that where the focus of attention is now?

Are the university authorities satisfied that the food science technology degree course has been adapted and is responsive to the advancements made in technologies, especially geonomics? Is the course keeping pace with international best practice in teaching these advancements? It was stated there were competing demands internationally as well as nationally.

Is the college satisfied with the recent relocation of the veterinary facilities from the Ballsbridge campus to Belfield? Are the authorities happy the international status of the practice of veterinary medicine at UCD has been maintained and that there are no perceived negativities since the move took place?

What is the loss to UCD in running the Lyons research farm? How much by way of public and private funding does the college receive to run the enterprise? To what extent is it reliant on private enterprise to fund the centre? Is there much support from medium-sized Irish companies in terms of the research carried out at UCD, or is the college mainly reliant on the larger biotech firms to fund research? Does it plan to sell part of the Lyons Estate to fund capital projects?

I apologise for the absence of my colleague, Deputy Enright, who prepared some of the questions.

Deputy O’Sullivan

I apologise for being late. I welcome the delegation. As my colleague, Deputy Upton, is more expert in these matters, she will follow with questions.

Reference was made to the college of life sciences, obviously a structural change in UCD. How has this affected agricultural education specifically?

Another question relates to one asked by Deputy English who asked how many graduates became directly involved in farming. Are there facilities for mature students with farming experience and who may decide that they want to become more involved in the professional or educational side of agriculture? I am interested in learning whether it is open to practising farmers to apply to UCD and be admitted as students.

Reference was also made to the significant changes that had taken place. This is an issue in which we are all interested. To what extent is the topic of bio-energy incorporated into what the college is doing?

Professor Boland referred to students working internationally and the effect of globalisation on agriculture. I recently dealt with a man originally from the Democratic Republic of Congo, who is a qualified agricultural scientist. He has been working with Teagasc and other Africans in growing African-style vegetables in the mid-west. Obviously, this is a growing market, both internationally and in Ireland, given that we have such a large African population. To what extent has this changed the focus of the university? The delegates are probably dealing with a phenomenon that is changing more rapidly than most others in third level institutions.

Deputy Upton

I thank the Chairman for allowing me to participate at this meeting. I am not a member of the committee but I had to come to welcome and acknowledge the presence of my UCD colleagues. Knowing them as I do, I have every confidence that they will adapt to the dramatic changes that are taking place and have taken place in the agriculture sector.

Many of the questions I had intended to pose have been asked already but I have a few general comments. GMOs comprise a highly sensitive issue and are politically significant and scientifically important. What are the delegates' views on presenting information thereon to their students? Given that they are to be leaders in the field, will they be giving advice and making recommendations and how will they respond to this issue, which is challenging both politically and scientifically?

Bio-fuels were mentioned by Deputy O'Sullivan. How do the delegates envisage agriculture will adapt to the need for bio-fuels, given the great emphasis on the need for change in this regard?

Colleagues have mentioned the environment, which very much goes hand in hand with agriculture. What emphasis do the delegates place on the role of agriculture in accommodating good environmental practices and ensuing the environment is not damaged as a result of certain agricultural practices? How are the economic considerations balanced with the environmental considerations?

The recognition of and need for niche products are becoming increasingly important in Irish agriculture, which was not the case heretofore. CAP reform, including single farm payments, is such that emphasis is placed more on quality, the environment, animal welfare and food safety than on production. What changes have been made, in terms of presenting programmes, to accommodate this change of focus towards quality-driven practices rather than quantity-driven practices? How will the change of focus affect the economy in Ireland and how will the university, as the Irish leader in delivering agricultural programmes, present the relevant information on niche products?

Organic food now clearly comprises a niche market. A very small percentage, 30%, of our organic produce is home-produced. There must be a shift of emphasis in this regard. How could this be achieved?

Co-operative research is important in terms of future resources. Will the delegates outline how one can avoid duplication in research programmes, both nationally and internationally? It has often occurred to me, from my own background, that we spend too much time reinventing parts of the wheel, if not all the wheel. If we considered what our colleagues are doing in other places, we might recognise scope for co-operation and accommodating views of other third level research institutes.

Will the delegates comment on their relationship with industry, specifically in so far as it relates to agriculture? What is the particular role of industry in research and development? In this regard, there are concerns over who benefits when research results become the property of the industry providing the funding.

Senator U. Burke

I welcome the delegation. I am seriously concerned that agriculture is to become a pure science degree rather than a traditional field of study. It does not have to be traditional and we all know changes are taking place and have taken place but if we drift towards concentrating on scientific aspects without engaging in field studies, nobody will be able to deny but that we have will have catalogued agriculture solely as a science-based discipline. The statistics on the uptake of science presented by the delegation show there is an obvious drift away from advisory activities.

I was concerned that the delegates stated they have jointly signed a memorandum of understanding with Teagasc. I regret that Teagasc has truly left the agricultural scene in rural Ireland. It has sold its properties and its advisory service is practically non-existent when compared to that offered to farmers in the past. We recognise at the same time that the farming community in the past did not have the educational standard of the current one but the drift from the land is absolutely frightening. The number of part-time farmers must also be considered in this regard. Is the delegation, through the education process, responding to the idea that farming is becoming a part-time activity and that there will be even fewer commercial farmers in the future?

There was never a greater onus on UCD, the only university in the country offering an agriculture degree, to conduct research and development in agriculture. However, this cannot take place in the absence of field activities. My colleague, Deputy English, referred to the future of the Lyons Estate, which has been halved in recent times. The estate had and has an international reputation and one of its most well-known areas of research, apart from animal husbandry, concerned cereal crops and maize in particular. What has happened in this regard has revolutionised the production of maize in marginal areas and has established it as a very important feed crop. Reference was made to equine research and development. This was traditionally carried out in the Lyons Estate over the years and some of it was fantastic.

Is there any indication that research and development on new bio-fuel crops, apart from that carried out by Teagasc, will be carried out by the university? The Government is promoting alternative fuel production at present. The majority of woodchip pellets, which are the subject of the most recent initiative by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, are imported from Fermanagh while the remainder come from Poland. There is no evidence that anything is being done to research an activity that might be useful in agriculture in some places in Ireland.

The beet industry has been wiped out but there has been little or research into alternative uses for the crop which had undergone enormous production improvements. Many people who invested heavily in sugar beet have been destroyed with one stroke of the pen. There is, however, an alternative use for the crop but no research is being undertaken into it.

Those involved in agricultural science must ask what they are doing. The farming community would be sceptical of the practical experience of such a graduate because of the academic nature of the subject. Will we go down this road in its entirety? There is a need for a degree of book experience and academia, but must we go all the way?

The strategic body in UCD initiated a review of the practicalities of an agricultural field operation. How far has the review gone? Has it come to any conclusions and, if so, when will they be made public? Many people, particularly those involved in the farming organisations, have shown concern. The onus is on the college in the light of Teagasc's withdrawal. Farming in the east and south east is very different from that in the west. The farm in Athenry was closed and sold off for industry. The report states the university is becoming increasingly cognisant of the impracticality of operating an institutional farm facility in an area subject to rapidly increasing urbanisation. There is nothing unique in this; the farm in Athenry is a classic example. It was a marvellous farm that enjoyed research and development during the years but is no more. Where are the agricultural colleges which were operated by the Department of Agriculture and Food and other interested bodies? If we will have effectively a science degree instead of an agricultural degree, it will be a matter of regret.

Deputy English

I listened to the figures on student numbers during the years. There is a major difference between the figures for 2005-06 and those for 2006-07. It was mentioned that the number of points required had increased. Does this course attract more students because they think it is a better one? It is a noticeable jump.

Dr. Nolan

UCD launched the UCD Horizons programme between 2005-06 and 2006-07. There was a 10% increase in first preference applications to UCD and a 15% increase in applications. Students see the need to be adaptable and saw that we offered a new way of adapting a degree to their individual needs without taking away the core. That accounted for part of the general increase in interest in UCD's programme at the time, from which agriculture benefited.

Professor Boland

We engaged in a marketing process to show the importance of the degree in agriculture. This will offer some consolation to Senator Burke. The marketing showed that, in the face of all the changes taking place in agriculture — it is not the university that has been the cause of any decline — we are producing an attractive option for students to take.

Dr. Nolan

We may have to send detailed information on graduate employment separately.

Professor Boland

We offer professional work experience to third year students. Depending on their degree, they can spend between three and nine months working. We see this as vital. During the review in 2004 industry strongly pointed to this as an important component of student training. It gets them out into the real world and sets them up for where they might go.

The students are made aware of development and value added products. They do not have too much time during undergraduate training, however, to become involved in research. We try to balance their time at university with achieving the core competences required. During their four years we offer certain elements but also enable them to be lifelong learners.

Focusing on large-scale versus part-time farming, I reiterate what I said. We offer students a bachelor of agricultural science degree, not a bachelor of agriculture and a bachelor of science degree. They are made aware of the implications of both but we do not focus on one rather than the other. We try to give them the information to allow them to understand efficiencies. We are not moving away from production systems; no one would suggest this. The students need that practical application during their third year.

We hope all our degrees involve international best practice. How do we do this? We have external examiners twice a year who review the quality of the graduates and the examination process. That is our benchmark, apart from the staff being aware of international best practice.

Dr. Nolan

The bachelor of agricultural science degree, like many similar degrees at UCD, tries to strike a balance between education at university level and creating someone capable of lifelong learning. As part of that, it creates an individual capable of lifelong learning. It also has a set of professional outcomes that include practical and technical hands-on skills. Professor Boland alluded to the professional work placement as part of that. This is an extensive commitment that can be between three and nine months of a student's four years at UCD. This experience in a real practice environment is an important part of the programme. I understand the concern that academic institutions drift into the theoretical and the abstract. This is, however, a much grounded programme which is one of its great strengths. Other programmes in UCD can learn from this programme. Under the new system we are encouraging more programmes to adopt this practice.

The transfer of the school of veterinary medicine from Ballsbridge to UCD went very well. World-class facilities are available to that programme on the Belfield campus. The facilities available to the school are far superior to those in Ballsbridge. Questions were raised on the formation of the school of agriculture and bringing together these two unique programmes into a common schools structure. The programme is accredited at European level by the European Association of Establishments for Veterinary Education, EAEVE. This accreditation process occurred around the time of the transfer and produced a very positive report.

UCD is also seeking accreditation from the American Veterinary Medical Association. It is not needed but we would like to have it to enhance the programme's reputation further. The association expressed concerns about this new structure. Simply, it did not understand its organisation. It is used to accrediting graduate schools of veterinary medicine which are isolated, like a graduate school of law or business.

Professor Boland, the dean of veterinary medicine and I visited the AMVA in September and explained the school's structure and the strategic value to UCD and Ireland in bringing these programmes together under a common governance structure. It was interested in our explanation. It is encountering this phenomenon in other parts of the world because UCD based its restructuring process on international good practice. We are working on describing and codifying in detail how these structures work. We are confident the association will proceed with its accreditation visit. We do not know what the outcome will be but it appears its initial concerns on our structures have been resolved and the process will proceed as normal. The transfer and the access to facilities available in the university was a major step forward for the programme to integrate itself in the campus.

Professor Boland

The Lyons Estate is used for undergraduate teaching and postgraduate and staff research. It is used by the bachelor of agricultural science students for practicals and is widely used by the undergraduates in the veterinary medicines programme. There are between 15 and 30 postgraduate students based full-time at the estate. We have a significant interest in using the estate for basic research funded by, say, Science Foundation Ireland, to applied research supported by the nutrition industry. Graduate students will spend most of their time at this campus rather than at Belfield. Facilities on the estate are available for animal and crop research. Some of the research on animals will also interact with environmental studies. For example, a programme funded by the Environmental Protection Agency has been examining methane output.

With regard to funding, apart from the staffing budget, we will put €500,000 into the estate annually. That is not nearly enough to run it. To tackle this we can increase our budget at the university level and raise funding for research that will support graduate students. We have not been successful in seeking donations to support the estate. We have gone to several sources but have not been as successful as our American counterparts. It has not been the tradition in the Irish psyche to support such an estate. It probably has not had as much financial input as it should have. That can be said about other areas in the university such as some of the equipment in laboratories in Belfield. Deputy Upton will be aware of the problems we have in keeping up to date with laboratory equipment.

Dr. Nolan

It comes back to my earlier point on grounding students in the practice of agricultural science and veterinary medicine. A significant amount of our research activity requires a field station. UCD knows that it needs a field station for the future and it does not intend to abandon field studies and will maintain a farm-field station.

Senator U. Burke

That might not necessarily be the Lyons Estate. Will it be brought into an urban environment?

Dr. Nolan

We do not know. I am not avoiding the question but it is under review by two separate bodies. The university has an enormous assets and infrastructure base to manage. We have just completed moving the medical school from Earlsfort Terrace to Belfield. First, we must consider Lyons Estate as an asset in university ownership and manage it appropriately regarding how it benefits the university. Second, times change, and we are conducting an analysis of the precise need of the school and the programmes for a field station. The questions that arise in that context relate to whether it is the right type and size of farm for the school's teaching and research needs. There are concerns regarding access to such a farm from UCD, as its students are now based exclusively at Belfield. The issue has been raised before that it is located next to a very rapidly urbanising area, and that creates some problems for our management of it.

However, that process is ongoing, and in March the governing authority decided to conduct a review, on which basis we will make a decision. It is being led by the school but includes international experts to give us the best dispassionate advice regarding what type of farm or field station we need in the medium to long term. At that point, the governing authority will make a decision bringing those two things together — managing it as an asset and providing the field facilities that the school's teaching and research programmes require.

I reiterate that we know, going into the review, that we need a field station, and the primary question regarding whether we intend to maintain a commitment to field studies can be answered positively. How we do so has not yet been resolved and is a matter for the university's governing authority to decide, based on input from the reviews.

Is that a satisfactory answer?

Deputy English

Can the university tap into European funding for research?

Professor Boland

Yes, we tap into European funds, as well as national funding through such bodies as Science Foundation Ireland. The Department of Agriculture and Food, which provides FIRM and stimulus funds, has been a significant supporter of ongoing research at Lyons. Those are the main components on which we draw for funding.

Deputy Upton

I realise that Lyons Estate is in an area of very rapid development and urbanisation, but what are the more accessible and appropriate alternative options for teaching practical agriculture? I appreciate that the witnesses may not have the answers, since UCD's governing body will take its own view, but given the practicalities, it strikes me that it will be very difficult to find an alternative.

Dr. Nolan

Absolutely. The review group will not necessarily report that there are better alternatives. I honestly do not know what its recommendations will be. All that I can say is that we will maintain a field station, and we have asked a group to explore whether it is the right one and whether we might improve our situation in some other way. I anticipate that, given our location in the middle of south Dublin city, access to any farm will present challenges. It also brings other challenges, as the UCD campus is unfortunately difficult to reach. The Luas and the DART bypass us by an equal distance on either side.

Senator U. Burke

What does Dr. Nolan mean when he speaks of managing Lyons Estate as an asset?

Dr. Nolan

I mean that one runs any operation with an asset base and with recurrent income. There are times when a university, to develop, to meet national needs and to remain internationally competitive, must realise the value of assets. It is not a process focused on Lyons farm. The governing authority has undertaken to scrutinise the university's entire asset base and determine whether we are utilising it correctly; it has a responsibility to do so. For instance, it would not be appropriate for us to find that we were having difficulties running our education and research programmes because of a lack of funding while sitting on an enormous asset base that we were not managing properly.

Senator U. Burke

I respectfully suggest that in the past "asset management" meant releasing assets in the Dublin urban area in places from which the university has now withdrawn. Now that UCD is to acquire them once again, does that not turn things on their head? It now has an asset but is still looking. Some years ago there was student agitation regarding access, but we did not have the roads that we do now. I concede that one can talk about urban traffic chaos, but how can the university say it will have animal husbandry in a proper environment in the greater Dublin area? Surely it is an impractical proposal.

Dr. Nolan

I am not suggesting that but rather that we currently have a valuable asset and are reviewing how we maintain a field station appropriate to the university's needs. If it is also possible to develop assets in other ways or release value, the responsibility rests on our governing authority to examine that. I do not know what the outcome will be. We have examined other assets and found that there is no way to release value from them without having to put the same value into an asset elsewhere. One does not squander one's assets.

The process is very carefully managed and stretches across all the university's assets. We ask what they are worth to us now and in future and how we might best use them. Regarding the future, we are committed to a field station, but I honestly do not know the right thing to do with Lyons Estate at this point. We are working through a process to determine that and will be quite happy to inform the committee when we have reached that determination.

Deputy English

I understand that the university must do this, but when does it hope to have feedback?

Dr. Nolan

The review was launched in April, at which time it was anticipated it would take approximately a year. It looks like it is on track to be completed within the first six months of this year. We may not have a decision by the summer, but the review process should be complete.

Deputy English

The university will have choices.

Dr. Nolan

Yes, we will have choices.

Professor Boland

I want to add something in case the committee is unaware of it. Once we have a veterinary degree programme, we must have a field station or farm for training. The committee can rest assured that what the registrar is saying is absolutely true. We must have it, as the requirement is legally binding. It is right to state that we cannot teach animal husbandry in the city; we must have a farm for that.

Senator U. Burke

This is my last shot. It seems the former veterinary unit is dictating play for other, ancillary agricultural requirements.

Dr. Nolan

Where did the Senator hear such a thing? Universities can be as political an environment as this.

Deputy English

We are all on the same side today.

Dr. Nolan

I will be lobbied by various groups, and the governing authority takes all opinions on board and makes a decision balancing the university's needs and those of the two programmes.

Chairman

I thank the witnesses.

Professor Boland

There were other questions that we did not answer.

Chairman

Please continue.

Dr. Nolan

I shall make a brief comment on the college of life sciences. The objective here is one of integration. For instance, in food and health, the college of life sciences brings together our expertise in this school, agriculture, food science and veterinary medicine but also other schools such as public health and medicine. If one wants to have a serious education and research programme in food and health, it is necessary to bring those entities together and point them in a common direction.

Professor Boland can confirm this, but I believe the impact of such an approach on education is to create a much more co-operative and collaborative environment for these programmes to work together and learn from each other.

From there on, as regards the questions on mature students and so on, I shall let Professors Boland and Evans deal with those.

Professor Boland

Professor Evans will take the questions as regards mature students, GMOs and so on.

Professor Alex Evans

I join my colleagues in thanking the committee for inviting us to come before it. We have an entry route for mature students, through the CAO form. They tick a box that indicates whether they are mature students. We get a list of such applicants from the CAO and review their leaving certificate points and what they have done since they were achieved. Then we interview these students so that they have a clear understanding of what our programme can offer them and we can determine whether they are suitable for what they are signing up to.

Just last weekend we had an open day at UCD to recruit new students into the programme. I had a short conversation with a woman whose husband was passionately interested in his cattle and was a mature student and wanted to know more. There is a strong core of people who enter the mature student category, and many of them do very well in our programmes. The answer to the Deputy's question is that we have a route and it has proven good for us in the past.

Deputy Upton asked about genetically modified crops, plants and organisms and how they are presented to students. Deputy English asked whether we are teaching our students the latest and most advanced technologies that are impacting on agriculture and the sciences. We have courses on biotechnology and genomics, which we teach our students in the middle years of their programmes. We teach advanced food technology type courses which may be relevant in answer to a question about ready-to-eat foods.

I suppose, in light of the conversation that has taken place, these courses are taught in the background of the other issues in extensive, productive and organic agriculture. We try to give our students a broad understanding of all the issues that impact on their future careers. We do this by offering them core modules which they have to take to get their degree, and giving them a selection of optional courses which they may choose. If they are more interested in a particular branch, such as organic farming or in what biotechnology has to offer, they may freely choose to take the relevant courses.

Professor Boland might like to talk about internationalisation and globalisation issues.

Professor Boland

There were a couple of other questions, one of which was about the internationalisation of students and what we do. We have developed quite a number of international links and as part of their professional work experience, students spend their time in Europe or quite a number of them who are interested in dairying go to New Zealand, where they spend their time working on big dairy farms. Some will go to the United States, and perhaps do something completely different. We have had students there working on tobacco farms, for example. That is something which will not be of use to them in Ireland, but it is part of the learning exercise and we believe that is good for them because it develops the initiative to do something different.

Two questions have not been dealt with, one of which was on co-operative research raised by Deputy Upton. We have recently set up a strategic committee comprising ourselves, UCD and Teagasc as two of the main bodies involved in agricultural research. We are trying to bring a national programme perspective to bear on agricultural research in Ireland. That will obviate duplication and ensure we are stronger when going for FP7 funding, because that is one of the major issues we must embrace. We are not at all sure as to who should drive this initiative. Should it be the Government, for example? It is very difficult for a university or Teagasc to tell the Government it should set up a national programme. Some further leadership is needed to ensure that this happens.

My final comment is on our interaction with industry. We have a strong relationship with a number of industrial partners, both nationally and internationally. There are issues with some as regards the ownership of intellectual property. With others there are no major issues and the university has a good system in place to sort such matters out before the research starts, to ensure everyone is clear as regards who owns the intellectual property and what may happen to it subsequently.

Senator U. Burke

Is there a cost factor involved as regards UCD's memorandum of understanding with Teagasc?

Professor Boland

No, there is not.

Professor Evans

Perhaps I could add to those two points. On co-operative research I am fairly heavily involved in research programmes and that involves applying for moneys to various agencies. Quite correctly, those agencies almost without fail require some level of collaboration. That is where, in most cases, the experts within Ireland are brought together to solve a problem in a co-operative fashion. I do not know of any example where two groups in Ireland are actually working on the same project and spending different money. As Deputy Upton pointed out, in the event that would be a complete waste of resources.

Our funding agencies are very much aware of this. Not alone are they aware of the situations locally, but many of them only use reviewers from outside Ireland. Therefore, our research is benchmarked against international standards and practices. The people who adjudicate on our applications know what is happening elsewhere in the world and will know whether a proposal is competing or duplicating other activities. From what I understand, Ireland is doing a very good job in bringing our research to the international scene and ensuring that it is cutting edge and novel.

As regards partnership with industry, I have had some experience with this where the ownership of intellectual property is an important issue. I can summarise this by saying that he or she who puts in the intellectual effort owns the work. That is completely different from who pays for the work. For example, we are currently working on a contract with a company to do some research where it will pay us to work on our ideas. The agreement is that UCD will own all the intellectual property. What the company wants in return is the right to license that property in a reasonable period of time. In other words, it can buy that information from us.

Down the road, if we do more research with this company, where it actually provides scientists or materials, matters become somewhat more complex. We have to agree on who will own the property when we are both contributing intellectually to developing it. This is complex, but UCD has a very strong group which advises us on making these arrangements and capitalising on our research for the good of the university and Ireland. Much research is funded by public bodies and they want to see that we benefit from it and are not developing research that companies benefit from on the cheap.

Chairman

I thank the witnesses for coming along and for the informative discussion. I apologise for not being present for the whole of the meeting, but it was ably chaired in my absence. We shall be in touch with the witnesses when the reviews are completed.

The joint committee went into private session at 1.10 p.m. and adjourned at 1.15 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, 18 January 2007.