JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE debate -
Thursday, 9 Oct 2008

School Completion Programme: Discussion with IMPACT.

Chairman

I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members of any visiting delegation do not have privilege.

I welcome Mr. Niall Weldon, chairperson, Mr. James Kavanagh, assistant chairperson, and Ms Aoife Riordan, executive member, of the school completion branch of IMPACT to give a short presentation on the impact on front-line services which the proposed 3% cut in the school completion programme budget may have. Members may then ask questions. As was clear with the larger delegation from the universities, the less said in the introduction, the more can be teased out during questions. More than anything, we are trying to assess the impact of the cuts. I invite Mr. Weldon to begin.

Mr. Niall Weldon

I am grateful for the opportunity to address the committee on the recently announced cutbacks in funding to the school completion programme. The invitation to address the committee is a welcome opportunity to put on record some of the good work carried out in 124 projects throughout the country which work with 25,000 of our most vulnerable and disadvantaged young people.

I commend the wisdom and foresight of successive Ministers for Education and Science since 1997 in seeking to help those young people most at risk of early school leaving. I particularly commend the action of the Government in establishing the school completion programme in 2002 and expanding it by 50% in 2007. This is a good example of an effective education policy. The words of President Kennedy must have been heard in the halls of the Department of Education and Science when he said, "The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining". However, it would not seem very wise to abandon completion of these repairs just when they are needed most, when the rain has begun.

As members will be aware, the social inclusion unit of the Department of Education and Science wrote instructing all school completion programme projects to make a 3% cut in payroll and seek any further savings that could be achieved. These cuts caused us some alarm. First, we had been led to believe front-line services would be protected from such cuts, and ours, as members will hear, is a front-line service. Second, the effect of the announcement of cutbacks has been to demoralise a group of highly dedicated and professional people whose commitment to the needs of the young people they serve is extremely high.

This presentation is about numbers, statistics, case examples and programmes, all of which in themselves are valuable. However, behind all of this data are real people with real families living in real communities, people who are as important as you and I, but who, because of the way our society is arranged, have been given an unequal share, and who also, perhaps because of unfortunate choices, have found themselves caught, troubled, lost and on the margins. Behind each of these statistics there is a real young person, a story, a mystery and, possibly, untapped magic.

The early school leavers initiative, the 8-15 programme as it is known throughout the county, began in 1998. Since then, successive Ministers for Education and Science have entrusted me and my colleagues in the school completion programme to get to know these young people, to listen to their stories, to genuinely care for them, to look out for them and to value them, doing our best not to let any form of prejudice cloud our approach or judgment, and when there is a need, to challenge them in a professional and humane way.

The school completion programme has a great strength that few other policy initiatives in education have been lucky to enjoy. It is a locally devised solution to local problems. School completion has, at its heart, a flexibility to respond to local needs and an ability to devise and implement the best solution in a given place and time, rather than impose a "one size fits all" approach. It is this local approach which allows us to be flexible, responsive and adaptable to the needs of young people. While there are common approaches and much work has been done to develop and promote models of best practice, each project around the country devises its own retention plan. The school completion programme also is unique in being the only programme that works directly with children and young people.

The main aims of the school completion programme are as follows: to retain young people in the formal education system to completion of the senior cycle; to improve quality of participation and educational attainment of targeted children and young people in the educational process; to bring together all local stakeholders within the home, school, youth, community, statutory and voluntary sectors to tackle early school leaving; to offer positive supports in primary and post-primary schools towards the prevention of educational disadvantage; to encourage young people who have left mainstream education to return to school; and to influence in a positive way policies relating to the prevention of early school leaving in the education system.

Thus far, the school completion programme has been a great success in the approximately 600 schools that participate. It therefore was a great disappointment when cutbacks were announced in late August. In response, our branch executive has written to the Minister asking him to reconsider making cuts in such an important service. We also have been monitoring the impact of these cuts and the differences they are making. The cutbacks currently being implemented and any future cuts will have a direct effect upon the young people targeted for support under this programme.

I am in a position today to report on some of the effects of the cutbacks to date. From our survey of branch members in respect of how local programmes are coping with funding cutbacks, we have found that several themes recur.

Chairman

As members have received a copy of the presentation, Mr. Weldon should summarise the issues. I propose this report should be taken as read before the joint committee. Mr. Weldon then can comment on issues such as homework clubs being curtailed or holiday supports being cancelled. Members then can ask for further information in that regard.

Mr. Niall Weldon

One of the initiatives to be most widely affected by the cuts will be homework clubs, which are included in approximately 75% of the programmes. These take place in an after-school capacity and in general last for between an hour and two hours. The most significant point is that in many instances, school completions buy in the services of teachers or workers to support the programmes. The knock-on effect is that in many instances, the hours or duration through the year being offered by homework clubs are beginning to be curtailed. In some instances, they even may be cut completely. The knock-on effect is that many children will come into school quite stressed and in many cases will decide not to attend for fear of being found out.

Another important area in which programmes will be cut is that of holiday supports. An integral part of our programme is that we work throughout the holiday periods, that is, when school stops we do not. This is a huge element of the programme. It also is a time when young people can decide that school is not for them any more and working with them in a small group or on an individual basis makes a huge difference. This element definitely will be hit.

Therapeutic supports constitute a third element that will be affected. In many cases, school completion programmes buy in services such as counselling or education psychological assessments. Most members will be aware that the National Educational Psychological Service is stretched to its limits at present. Our ability to fast-track or hasten the provision of such resources is an area that we consider will be greatly curtailed.

School completion programmes work on a holistic approach and treat the person as a whole. I believe that when one treats the person as a whole, the academics comes afterwards. At times within the school system at primary and secondary level, we look for academic attainment although many problems and issues in the background have not been dealt with. While I could go on——

Chairman

Mr. Weldon should elaborate in this regard. He has mentioned some of the areas, such as Dublin and Monaghan, which have been hit by cutbacks in personal development. Attendance tracking and monitoring, as well as the breakfast clubs, will be affected. This is all included in the report. Given time constraints, I will invite members to come in. Mr. Kavanagh and Ms Riordan can comment on this subject because members seek further details in this regard. While members already are familiar with the report's contents, having read it previously, they seek further information. In that context, I ask members to ask pertinent and relevant questions in respect of the report we have taken as read. Deputy O'Mahony shall come in first, followed by Deputies Quinn and Behan. However, Senator Healy Eames may precede them.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

As a big supporter of the school completion programme, I welcome the witnesses. It is not that it provides its students a chance to move on, but rather that it provides them with a chance to stay in. It is that basic. I love the individual and local approach and like the manner in which it follows the student. Having worked with several school completion programmes nationwide, I consider this to be a very serious cut. Some school completion co-ordinators I know have told me they will be making local decisions. Mr. Weldon stated that 75% of the programmes operate homework clubs and that they will be hurt. This is appalling and will be detrimental. Many of the homes in question do not value homework. These children stand no chance without homework or study supports.

Chairman

The Senator should ask a question in this regard.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

The witnesses should provide further specific details on what will be cut. I am making a statement. The Government is present in this room. Earlier today, representatives of the universities appeared before the joint committee and the same socio-disadvantaged groups are being hurt at university level. I know quite a lot about this issue and do not have many questions to ask. Have the witnesses proposals as to how the school completion programmes can maintain their services, were this cut to be continued? The witnesses should speak to the Government members on the joint committee and should make them accountable in this regard.

Chairman

To clarify, neither Deputy Behan nor I constitute the Government. On an individual basis——

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

They are representatives of the Government.

Chairman

—— we have not even met IMPACT. It representatives are present on foot of my invitation to IMPACT to write to the joint committee. In addition to Opposition members, many Government members are appalled by these cuts and are aware they will hit frontline services. We seek to ascertain first how bad it will be specifically, and second, as Senator Healy Eames has asked directly, the ways in which the witnesses will try to manage in the face of such cuts.

Mr. James Kavanagh

We carried out a comprehensive survey among our membership in the past week. We have contacted as many people as possible and while we have communicated with everyone, thus far approximately one third of members have responded with detailed answers to questions pertaining to the cutbacks. I will set out the information they have supplied to us. The responses indicate that 89% of the young people we support will be directly affected by the recently-announced cutbacks.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

In what specific way?

Mr. James Kavanagh

I will provide specific examples. A total of 66% of projects have reported they will either cancel or curtail homework clubs. For example, in Ardee, County Louth, seven homework clubs in the Deeside school completion programme have been curtailed. Moreover, 40% of projects will curtail their summer supports next year. One can discern the pattern that when money becomes tight, resources will be pumped to an increasing extent into in-school activities and projects that operate after school or during holiday time will suffer most. In particular, 40% of projects have reported their intention to curtail. For example, 120 young people will be affected by the curtailment of their summer camp next summer in the Farney school completion programme, Carrickmacross, County Monaghan. A total of 22% of projects have reported that they intend to curtail their after-school sports and activities. I refer to Sligo school completion programme.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

As time is tight, I wish to ask a question through the Chair. Is it naïve of me to query whether school completion programmes can get volunteers from the parent group or others to supervise the homework clubs that are conducted after hours? The witnesses should be under no illusions that these cutbacks will not be made.

Mr. James Kavanagh

Regarding homework clubs, the first obstacle encountered is Garda clearance. We employ and train people. Often we recruit teachers to work in homework clubs because they have specific expertise in passing on information and working with young people. Not every parent wants to see another parent engaged to work with his or her child. Parents like to see a professional rather than having it become a matter of Mary not telling Johnny what to do.

Chairman

While that may be the case, does the same pertain to extracurricular activities such as games and so on?

Mr. James Kavanagh

We set out to recruit the best people who are in the best position to assist young people.

Mr. Niall Weldon

A large part of the ethos is ensuring consistency among those caring for and working with young people. My project teams work in an in-school capacity and, at times, we withdraw young people for personal development activities and one-to-one work based on their needs. However, we also work in an after-school or out-of-school capacity to ensure consistency presented by a single person throughout the full gamut. We are of the opinion that this is the most effective way.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

It will exacerbate school drop-out levels.

Chairman

Unfortunately, it could well do so.

Deputy Joe Behan

I welcome the delegates, thank them for appearing and apologise for the long wait, which does not imply that these matters are of lesser importance than those addressed by our previous guests. A number of university heads were present and many had questions to answer. There were also other members present.

As a member of the education profession, the school completion project is an important measure and I am glad our guests have welcomed it. The Government has had the foresight to ensure children, notably those in disadvantaged areas, complete their education, particularly at second level. This issue is just as important as that of third level fees. Every member of the committee, be he or she in Fianna Fáil, the Labour Party or Fine Gael or an Independent, is equally concerned young people complete second level as a minimum.

As we will hear next week, we are in a difficult financial position. I do not know what is coming down the tracks. This discussion is on what was outlined during the summer and our guests have stated there will be impacts. With them, we must try to tease out ways to ameliorate the impact of what has transpired, but it will not be easy.

I have a positive impression of the school completion programme in the Bray area. There are two excellent projects, one of which is attached to my school. Its co-ordinator is a model worker and has done considerable work in ensuring young people continue in education as far as practicable.

It has been stated that in some cases teachers supervise homework clubs. They are probably being paid hourly teaching rates, which are high. If so, will our guests review the situation? Speaking as a teacher, paying qualified teachers teachers' rates to supervise homework clubs is unnecessary. It is not the practice in Bray and I do not know where it is, but our guests could examine the question of costs.

Money has been spent on installing computer software to track attendance in some completion projects and on appointing attendance officers to work in second level schools. While important, would closer co-operation between the home-school liaison teacher and staff teachers be possible? Every school has a member of staff responsible for attendance matters. While I am sure the issue is being addressed, could co-ordination between our guests and schools be tightened?

Will the delegation comment on the effectiveness of local management committees? Their purpose is to bring together the community partners involved in the provision of education, but they are patchy and do not always work to the optimal level. It is essentially a free resource and people attend by virtue of their membership of other organisations. They are not paid to attend. Would using their expertise help the delegation to reduce some project overheads?

The Department has indicated that consultancies, PR, advertising and so on rather than front line services are to be targeted. Summer camps may be targeted next year, but parents in the Bray area are actively involved in such camps, which is part of the reason for their success. The system works well. Before cutting such front-line services, I appeal to our guests to determine whether there is another way around the difficulty. I welcome their attendance and support them fully in their objectives.

Chairman

To the three specific issues raised, I want to add to one. Ms Riordan was shaking her head concerning homework clubs.

Ms Aoife Riordan

Being a project worker, I work with children on the ground and do a great deal of interagency work. This was the subject of one of the questions posed. In Mallow we work closely with the youth centre and community groups and have been given immense support. Every year the budget is so tight that we are constantly looking for help from elsewhere. Volunteers help with our homework club. We also work with the Youthreach programme. Some of its youths not currently doing the leaving certificate applied to give us a hand, which is a fantastic collaboration.

Mr. Niall Weldon

In some of the schools with which I work we use transition year students as homework club mentors as a cost-cutting measure. I understand what has been stated, that some homework clubs have paid teachers, but many projects do not because we have tried to make them as cost effective and efficient as possible.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Could a club have one qualified teacher with trained mentors? Is that the model being used?

Ms Aoife Riordan

That is what occurs. My homework club is large. Given that I work in a primary school, I work with 38-40 children from first, second and third classes. There is one teacher for every seven or eight children, which is hectic, with one teacher in each room.

Mr. James Kavanagh

It is not standard practice in school completion projects to pay part-time teacher rates to someone, even a teacher, who manages a homework club. I compliment our education colleagues who regularly give of their own time for free — teachers, principals, special needs assistants and parents, with whom we work closely. We try to find ways to reduce costs. We work closely, for example, with the National Educational Welfare Board and in-school home-school liaison staff. There is complementarity of roles. I like to believe the school completion programme creates a synergy in schools that brings the best out of them. On top of State provision to schools, we receive an additional 1%. The committee should consider what we do with this funding.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

In quantitative terms, how much cash have the delegates lost as a result of the cut?

Mr. James Kavanagh

The current national estimate is approximately €1 million.

Mr. Niall Weldon

Given an overall budget for 2008 of €31.19 million, 3% is approximately €1 million. Per project, it equates to between €7,000 and €10,000.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

The delegates should count themselves lucky.

Chairman

Reverting to Deputy Behan's question on attendance tracking and monitoring, it will be a tough budget, but there is support among the committee's membership for our guests' plea.

In terms of value-for-money and how money can be saved, Deputy Behan has referred to attendance tracking and monitoring. What is the role of the National Educational Welfare Board? Every school does a roll in the morning and there is duplication in respect of that work. Unless it is necessary that work should be abolished. What proportion of the school completion project is spent on tracking and monitoring and why is there a deficit in the other statutory bodies that should be doing this job? Is there not a roll-keeper in every school and does the National Educational Welfare Board not monitor this?

Deputy Margaret Conlon

The home school liaison officer has a role as well.

Chairman

That is so, although it exists only in certain schools.

Mr. James Kavanagh

Perhaps I can address the purpose of attendance monitoring and tracking in schools. It is a statutory responsibility of every principal in every school in the country to monitor attendance. Under the Education (Welfare) Act the principal must report on this to the National Educational Welfare Board at regular periods. There are 73 education and welfare officers on the ground in Ireland, although the figure might be 78. Some schools, such as mine, are lucky enough to be given an intensive service, meaning that I meet with the education and welfare officer once a week for an hour to consider a list of pupils about whom we are concerned. I draw up the list on the basis of monitoring the children arriving in school every morning. If someone is not in school on time we contact parents by phone or by text to ask where the student is or why he or she is not in school. There are students we watch regularly.

We are trying to reduce the number of young people who are falling into chronic attendance issues. Under the Education Welfare Act, 20 days is defined as the amount of time when someone falls into chronic attendance. In schools of disadvantaged status, approximately 50% of pupils will fall into that category. The vast majority of the schools we are dealing with fall into DEIS band 1 and band 2, where we set up breakfast clubs. We set these up to attract children. It is an integrated approach, not just monitoring attendance for the sake of a secretarial task.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I am sorry to interrupt. We know much of this although not to the extent that Mr. Kavanagh does. Many in this room are professional teachers. I am not an apologist for the Government but cuts are a reality. Is there any way the school completion branch could link up with local authorities or other statutory bodies in ways they have not done before? Is Mr. Kavanagh saying that the branch is already so stretched that services will fall through the floor?

Chairman

Can I follow up on that issue of attendance? The alarm bell goes off after 20 days are missed. There are 1,000 classrooms worth of children who miss 40 days or more per year. That is far too many. Is the weekly monitoring not too intensive? Should it not be a case of finding when a child has missed 20 days and intervening then rather than doing it on a weekly basis? I am playing the devil's advocate.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

May I come in here? There is a problem. The National Educational Welfare Board is too slow in its response. It has too many chronic cases of over 60 days and if we are to wait for children to be 20 days absent, they are on the slippery slope to failure before they start. I know I am interrupting the Chairman.

Chairman

I ask the Senator to interrupt with a question rather than a statement. She can make a statement later.

Home school liaison officers are in place so the school completion branch should not be involved at the same time. If there is an education and welfare officer, the school completion branch should not be involved. Are there cases where the school completion branch should not be there?

Mr. Niall Weldon

The perfect example took place quite recently. I put together a collaborative, interagency team to examine a family support programme for the north Dundalk area. I worked closely with the education and welfare officer for the town of Dundalk and its hinterland. In north Dundalk she had over 300 referrals, 180 at primary and 140 at second level.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Are these children at risk?

Mr. Niall Weldon

Yes, in the north Dundalk area. The committee is asking if these people can take on more work. The lady in question is overworked at present. To suggest it would create further rationalisation. They are overstretched as it is.

Chairman

It is not their job to track in any event. Before she intervenes, she must track. If she is tracking, can she not contact the school completion branch and explain that a certain child has missed 20 days?

Mr. Niall Weldon

Yes.

Deputy Margaret Conlon

On a point of order, it is the school's responsibility to examine attendance so that if a pupil is missing, the school must be involved before the National Educational Welfare Board gets involved because it must contact the board.

Chairman

We do not want to get bogged down on this issue but tracking and monitoring is mentioned as one of the most widely implemented supports. The consensus seems to be that there are ways and means by which personnel hours could be diverted because others should be doing the job.

Ms Aoife Riordan

I am privileged to work as a project worker and love my job but I am not an attendance checker. We do everything. I do not have a home school liaison officer in the school. I visit parents' houses at night.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I hear Ms Riordan and perhaps attendance tracking and monitoring was given too great a role with regard to the overall picture. Let us consider the six areas outlined. Homework clubs must be kept, some therapeutic services must be kept and breakfast clubs must be kept. Can guidance counselling be contacted for personal development areas? Guidance counselling is abysmal compared to what is needed but we are talking about saving these children.

I am annoyed that the Government has blown our boom and these are the real people who are falling behind. Can we ask the National Educational Welfare Board to become move involved at an earlier stage and work with the schools earlier on attendance tracking and monitoring, and with guidance counsellors on personal development cutbacks?

The Chairman referred to local councils. Have there been discussions with other groups to keep these children in? Each of these areas must be examined to see who else could help. It is very disappointing. The situation is chronic. We will never help third level if we let these children fall out. One can forget about participation levels of socio-economically disadvantaged students at third level if they are gone at second level. Some 18% of students fall out before the leaving certificate.

Chairman

The point is made.

Deputy John O’Mahony

One of my questions regarding the budget and the amount cut back was answered.

The delegation referred to summer camps and working through the summer. Are the witnesses working with sporting bodies? Coming from a sporting background, many sporting bodies and organisations would like to tap into some of these people. Sport and recreation is a way to improved the self-esteem of these children. Is there some way to minimise the spend and create a win-win situation, using facilities that are there? What summer camps are we talking about?

Mr. Niall Weldon

During the summer there are many initiatives and many programmes throughout the country. The ethos of the programme is to tie in with summer programmes or sports camps in the GAA or the FAI. In some instances there is a cost but, where possible, we try to get them at no cost. The ethos is to use what is already available locally. I do not know whether that answers the questions posed. This is one element of the programme; other elements involve taking children away once a year to places where they are challenged with outdoor pursuits and activities. We also work on family trips during the summer to allow children have experiences they otherwise would not and which build relationships with their parents in order that when the proverbial hits the fan, a positive relationship has been built with parents.

Deputy John O’Mahony

Is there room for expansion?

Mr. Niall Weldon

In some instances there is but in many cases there is not.

Deputy Joe Behan

Each is an individual project which addresses local needs as seen fit. There are various agencies in each area and if it is a DEIS 1 or DEIS 2 school, additional resources are provided. I would not like the message to be sent from this meeting that all homework and breakfast clubs are under threat because of this move. That is not the case. In many schools breakfast and homework clubs are run by other agencies which are separate from the school completion programme. To my knowledge, they are not necessarily under threat. I would not like the impression to be created that everything is gone as a result of the 3% reduction.

Having said this, the delegation must make the strongest possible case it can. What I asked was, given the reality, could we work together and make suggestions that the delegation might consider which would enable it to continue to provide these important frontline services. Will the delegation speak to other members of the school completion programme and establish whether two breakfast clubs in two nearby towns, one funded by the school completion programme and the other by another source, could have discussions with regard to funding?

Mr. James Kavanagh

In the vast majority of cases the school meals programme is funded separately through the Department of Social and Family Affairs which provides a grant towards the cost of food. However, no grant is given for staff involved in the preparation and serving, nor does the Department pay for the plastic bag in which the food is carried. We must have partnership between agencies. We are happy, always and everywhere, to work with anybody willing to work with us, particularly if it will mean savings.

I work with Swords Youth Service and we run an after-school activity club. It provides the personnel, the school completion programme provides some of the resources required to run a bus and pays for entrance into an activity, while the Department of Social and Family Affairs pays for food. Other groups and agencies such as the customs service and the Garda Síochána might become involved at various stages and be part of the activity club. At its heart the school completion programme is interagency and works closely with as many as possible in the community.

Deputy Behan has a good understanding of the ethos of the school completion programme. It is a local response to a local need at a given time. Its strength is that it is a local and immediate response. Being a local response challenges not only those in the school completion programme but those throughout the community to step forward and offer their services. As Deputy O'Mahony stated with regard to sports clubs, we always welcome interaction with various agencies and organisations. Sometimes we work very well with them. If the Deputy has any influence with sports organisations, I ask him to ask them to offer their assistance. It would be gratefully received.

Deputy Margaret Conlon

In many cases the young people involved in such organisations would be great role models for pupils in the school completion programme. It is a win-win.

Chairman

Let us focus on the number of pupils, which is 25,000. Are they primarily or exclusively in DEIS areas?

Mr. James Kavanagh

Primarily.

Chairman

Therefore, stating 89% would be affected by cutbacks in support services, with 66% of homework clubs cancelled or curtailed, would mean two thirds of the 25,000 children would be affected. As Deputy Behan stated, the entire country's cohort of homework clubs would not be affected but a considerable number of children would.

The delegation received a grilling from the committee with regard to ways to save money. This is important, given the cutbacks because no group will receive an increase over the rate of inflation and groups will be lucky to receive an increase in line with inflation. At the same time a message needs to be sent from this committee that frontline services being affected must be examined and addressed. In this context, I have a proposal to put to members and if it cannot be agreed by consensus, we will not do it. The draft wording states, "That this committee recommends that the Department of Education and Science carries out a thorough review of the impact of the payroll cutbacks within the school completion project on frontline services with a view to addressing said deficiencies should they be found". We can work on the wording in private session. This would send a message to the Department. Obviously, it will not happen this year but if the impact is being felt by the children, the message needs to be sent to the Department which needs to examine it thoroughly. There is no point in having 3% cutbacks in payroll costs across the board in every Department without examining the impact next year in terms of value for money.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

The Chairman's motion is worthwhile. However, I would add the phrase, "for this already at risk group of students".

Chairman

When we go into private session, we will work on the wording.

Deputy Joe Behan

Prior to going into private session, it is important to state one cannot bring forward a motion without giving notice to members.

Chairman

It is a recommendation to the Minister, not a motion.

Deputy Joe Behan

I do not think we have to go into private session to record the fact that we all support the aims of the school completion programme. We are concerned that frontline services might be affected by the 3% cut and ask the Department to seriously examine the matter with a view to addressing the difficulties it may cause. Rather than having a specific formal motion, what I stated reflects the genuine views of all members of the committee.

Prior to the delegation leaving, it is important to be realistic about this issue. Given all the messages we have heard privately and publicly from Ministers during the past two weeks, it is unlikely that this measure will be withdrawn. There is no point in giving people a false impression that it will.

Chairman

Absolutely; that is why——

Deputy Joe Behan

Having stating that, we should reflect that we believe this programme is important.

Chairman

Absolutely; that is why I proposed a recommendation which we can discuss in private session. It is not a motion and does not require a vote. It takes cognisance of the fact that nothing will happen this year. However, a message needs to be sent from the committee to the Department of Education and Science that it should carry out a forensic review of the impact of these cuts and redress an imbalance if one is found. The delegation states there will be an imbalance. Obviously, we cannot take only its word for it. The Department needs to examine the figures during the next 12 months.

Mr. James Kavanagh

Those of us involved in the school completion programme are realists. We accepted what the Department asked of us and implemented painful cuts. Today we were asked to identify for the committee the areas affected by the cutbacks and have tried to do so to the best of our ability. The level at which people will be affected will vary from place to place. One question we asked our colleagues was whether the project had the capacity to take further cutbacks. Obviously, the universal answer was "No".

We live in the real world and know one is very lucky, in this day and age, if an axe does not fall and hit one. We accept the goodwill and the support of the committee and hope it will continue into the future. We also hope that the committee's prophecy will be correct.

Chairman

I thank members of IMPACT for appearing before the committee today and for being so patient, given the size of the delegation which preceded them. I also thank them for briefing us very comprehensively on the impact of the cutbacks.

Mr. Niall Weldon

I acknowledge the support from the committee this morning. I sense that there is s a consensus that this an extremely worthwhile programme which is very cost effective.

Chairman

I thank the delegates. The committee will now meet in private session.

The joint committee went into private session at 12.51 p.m. and adjourned at 12.55 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 23 October 2008.