JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE debate -
Thursday, 23 Oct 2008

Funding of the Higher Education Sector: Discussion.

Chairman

I welcome Mr. Jerome Kelly, principal officer of the higher education section of the Department of Education and Science, Mr. Brian Power, principal officer of the higher education equity of access section of the same Department, and Mr. Tom Boland and Ms Mary Kerry, respectively the chief executive and deputy chief executive of the Higher Education Authority, HEA.

I draw the delegation's attention to the fact that committee members have absolute privilege, but witnesses appearing before the committee do not. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I ask Mr. Kelly to begin a short presentation, based on the longer submission, on funding of the higher education sector. Members will then be entitled to ask questions of the Department and the HEA.

Mr. Jerome Kelly

I thank the committee on behalf of the Department and the HEA for the opportunity to discuss this issue. The higher education sector has undergone a major change, which has been matched by recent considerable increases in public investment. Higher education delivers important national goals in teaching and learning, research, life-long learning and promoting social inclusion. The sector's growth is well recognised as a significant factor in the economic success story of recent years, with the availability of a highly educated workforce serving as a key attraction for inward investment.

The challenge of ensuring that our higher education system continues to respond to and lead change in the world around it remains key to Ireland's future economic success. Ireland has set itself the highly ambitious, but essential, strategic objective of achieving a successful transition to a knowledge and innovation society. This holds the key to our future competitiveness on which our broader social aspirations are dependent. Our transition to the knowledge economy is fundamentally dependent on our capacity to produce leading edge research and on the human capital upon which our future competitive advantage can be based.

Significant investment has been made over the years in our higher education system and in our research infrastructure to provide that key foundation. Overall provision to the third level sector has been increased from €1.5 billion in 2004 to €2 billion in 2008, some 32%. Recurrent funding for universities and institutes of technology has been increased by 24% from €1.1 billion in 2004 to some €1.38 billion in 2008. A strategic innovation fund has been established to promote reform and development in the sector and priority has been given to the strategy for science, technology and innovation in the national development plan to increase Ireland's research capacity.

The overall 2009 provision for the sector of €2.1 billion takes account of the general public sector payroll reduction, which is applicable to all higher level institutions. It will be a matter for the institutions to manage their resources in 2009 and, where necessary, to effect economies across all levels of activity, including increased collaboration between universities and between the university and institute of technology sectors. The 2009 provision includes an amount of €265 million for higher education capital, an increase of €81 million relative to the 2008 allocation.

Unprecedented levels of investment in research and development are being made through our higher education system across a range of funding programmes in pursuit of the development of the knowledge base on which our future growth strategy is based. In contributing to the achievement of national policy goals for social and economic development, it can be anticipated that there will be continuing significant resource needs for the sector. The Department's proposed strategy for higher education will provide a vision and strategic direction for the future development of the sector in contributing to Ireland's economic and social development. It will identify medium and long-term policy objectives for the sector based on an assessment of the needs of society and the Irish economy over that period.

The latest available figures show that the numbers of full-time students participating in higher education in 2006-07 stand at 138,000. The participation rate in higher education has grown from 20% in 1980 to a current level of approximately 55%. Regarding third level participation, the Department has responsibility for the development of national policy on equity of access to higher education for all students, but particularly among those groups currently under-represented in the sector. In this regard, it works closely with the national access office of the HEA to deliver on policy objectives articulated in the National Access Plan 2008-13. Targets outlined in the plan include better data collection, the development of institutional access plans and increasing entry rates to higher education for lower socio-economic groups, mature students and students with disabilities.

The principal support in financial terms is provided for under the student grant schemes, which make available means tested financial assistance to students in further and higher education. The national access office administers a range of dedicated measures on behalf of the Department to facilitate greater levels of participation by disadvantaged students, mature students and students with disabilities. These include the student assistance fund, the fund for students with disabilities and the millennium partnership fund for disadvantage.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Kelly and ask Deputy Brian Hayes to ask questions based on the full submission circulated to members.

Deputy Brian Hayes

I thank Mr. Kelly and his colleagues for appearing before the committee and for their presentation. Two weeks ago, university heads appeared before the committee. In a forceful presentation, they outlined how three of our seven universities are working with budgetary deficits. From my understanding of their oral presentation, all seven could be in funding deficit next year. They argued that, given the explosion in student numbers in recent years, the funding provided by the Government has not matched increased participation in the higher education sector. What is Mr. Kelly's response?

Mr. Jerome Kelly

Mr. Boland may wish to participate in the response. While universities make demands for additional funds, we also recognise that they have autonomy in how that funding is used.

Deputy Brian Hayes

They claim that the increases in the block and fees in lieu of grants, the Department's two components, have not kept pace with the increase in student numbers. Does Mr. Kelly accept this?

Mr. Jerome Kelly

We would differ.

Deputy Brian Hayes

How?

Chairman

The Deputy means facts and figures only. Mr. Kelly's personal opinion is not in question.

Mr. Jerome Kelly

In so far as——

Deputy Brian Hayes

I will put it neatly. They claim they have lost 17% in a six-year period because the Department's grant to them has not kept pace with the number of students. Does Mr. Kelly accept this?

Mr. Jerome Kelly

Since 2001 we have increased recurrent funding from almost €929 million to €1.38 billion, an average annual increase of 2% over the consumer price index, CPI, in that period.

Deputy Brian Hayes

It has not kept pace with the numbers entering the university sector.

Mr. Jerome Kelly

If we allow for variation in student numbers, the increase provided is in line with movements in the CPI.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Regarding higher education in the budget, the Government stated that proposals may revert to it on a potential new funding mechanism within four to six months. Can Mr. Kelly or the other witnesses give evidence to the committee on how this process will occur in the coming months? Yesterday, a substantial group of students at the gates of Leinster House clearly articulated a position in opposition to the reintroduction of third level fees. Given the Government's statement to the House on Tuesday of last week, it would seem that a new formula is being devised. How will it be devised?

Chairman

Given that the national strategy for higher education is separate to the process of an introduction of any sort of student contribution, perhaps the two issues can be dealt with separately. Mr. Boland has indicated his desire to answer these questions, but does Mr. Kelly wish to continue?

Mr. Jerome Kelly

With regard to the higher education strategy, the Minister has indicated he will bring proposals to the Government shortly. There is an intention to examine the resource needs of the sector, looking at the demands made on it, participation ratios, student numbers and the economy.

I refer to the possible introduction of student fees. The Minister has indicated that the issue of a student contribution, applying to those who can afford it, would be the subject of a separate process. Work has commenced on examining the issues involved. Any proposals and options could be brought to the fore in the next six months.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Would that be done within the Department, by the HEA or both?

Mr. Jerome Kelly

Both.

Mr. Tom Boland

The funding of higher institutions is complex. There are different ways by which one can come to a rate per student and the outcomes will be different. Whichever route one takes — the CPI route adopted by the Department which is perfectly valid, or the pay inflation model adopted by the universities — it is a common case that the funding of higher education is difficult. It is an expensive exercise. On a recurrent basis, they receive somewhere in the order of €1.5 billion per year. This is a lot of money. Nevertheless, there is capacity to spend more and do a better job. The higher education system is reasonably funded and does a very good job on the funding it receives. Rather than debating the reduction that has occurred in recent years, we must consider where we go from here. Ireland's society and economy need more graduates, notwithstanding the current economic difficulties. The key issue is how we provide for that level of funding with an ambitious statement in the national development plan that we be in the front rank of OECD countries. This is a figure of 70% but we must bear in mind that the front rank of OECD members is progressing all the time; therefore, the figure could be higher than 70%. There is a worthwhile debate on how this is to be achieved.

Deputy Brian Hayes

The argument they make is that the wage and cost components in terms of salaries have grown exponentially in recent years, far above the CPI, from about 40% to 70% of costs. This has not been factored into the grant they receive.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I welcome the delegation. In the immortal words of another organisation, we are here to help. That is what we are trying to do but, first, we must fully understand what the delegation is at because we do not understand and do not purport to do so. This is a committee of the Oireachtas, not the governing parties.

Part of the difficulty in the Department of Education and Science is the directive from the Department of Finance that one can only increase the level of support by a certain percentage figure. That figure does not necessarily relate to the real increase in costs endured by an organisation which must implement social partnership wage agreements and the like. The delegation may wish to comment on this issue. That seems to be where the gap is because the HEA and the universities are not part of the social partnership process. They are not at the bargaining table and, like local authorities, are left with the consequences of the decisions made, which they must fund and which cause internal financial problems. That is my analysis of the gap between the two sets of figures.

The executive summary refers, in the last paragraph, to the strategy for higher education. I presume this is the same as the first chapter on a new national strategy for higher education. Referring to the comment made by Mr. Boland, the current national strategy is to increase participation rates from the current figure of 55% to 72% by 2020, an ambitious figure. Is the new national strategy, as summarised here, primarily about funding access to achieve that participation rate, or will the Department, as set out in the presentation, "identify medium and long-term policy objectives for the sector based on an assessment of the needs of Irish society and the Irish economy over that period"? Do I take it there has been a rethink by the Minister or the Department of the national skills strategy objective of moving the participation rate from 55% to 72%? Is it more realistically confined to, as Mr. Boland referred to it, the way in which we will fund this objective?

Chairman

Before Mr. Kelly responds, the Dáil division bells have rung and Dáil Members must vote. Occasionally, we suspend the sitting but given that we have a busy schedule and the witnesses are busy people, I propose that a nominee replace me as Chairman on a temporary basis. Given that there are three Senators, there will be ample opportunity to ask questions and engage in discourse. Deputies will return at a later stage.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

I propose Senator Keaveney.

Senator Cecilia Keaveney took the Chair.

Acting Chairman (Senator Cecilia Keaveney)

I assume Deputy Quinn wants to hear the answer to his question. Perhaps we can park that issue and deal with quality rather than quantity.

Participation rates in third level education have grown from 20% in 1980 to 55% currently. In that context and the context of the Good Friday Agreement, I refer to the inequity that students from County Donegal encounter with fees being introduced in the North affecting their ability to access neighbouring colleges. These fees have left them under pressure. Those who are bravely finding the money to pay them find that they cannot access bursaries or avail of hardship schemes in Northern colleges because they live in the Republic of Ireland. This is not conducive to encouraging participation in third level education. I know a number of families who are under pressure and must give up. Do the delegates have any intention of interacting with their Northern counterparts to learn from the mistakes made there and provide for equity of access? Perhaps the priority of the delegation centres on universities and third level colleges in the Republic but we are trying to develop an island economy and knowledge base. Therefore, inequity in participation, particularly for low income families, is relevant. Can the delegation do anything about the existing systems under which students from County Donegal and Border areas face inequity? Will it take the matter into consideration in the current discussions?

Is fourth level funding given priority over third level funding? It has been claimed that professional research and development are taking precedence over undergraduate education.

Higher education institutions internationally are grappling with the challenge of enhancing the quality of teaching and responding to the need for more flexible provision. Despite large class sizes, children are taught to explore at primary level. However, when they start second level they are faced with rote learning. They are told the facts which they must regurgitate in examinations. When they start university, their professors give them a few ideas and their ability to learn depends on their creative and analytical faculties. However, they have not learned the skills they need to analyse and critically develop concepts. Their creativity has not been challenged by the secondary system. In terms of efforts by the Department of Education and Science to grapple with the challenges of flexibility and new teaching methods, will curricula at second level be reviewed to enable children to be more imaginative and creative or is the Department too compartmentalised to deal with the continuum of care?

Mr. Jerome Kelly

It would be difficult to provide an overview of higher education without being conversant with the details of what is happening at second level. I can revert to the Deputy on the matter, however.

In regard to students from County Donegal accessing universities in the North which charge fees for their courses, there is no provision to pay fees for students from Border counties studying in the North. Perhaps Mr. Power can comment further on the issue of wider access.

Acting Chairman

According to the Department's website, there is no stipulation at present on whether students who apply to Irish institutions for hardship support should receive aid. In the context of the Good Friday Agreement and greater flexibility in terms of identity, surely the situation should not arise on the island of Ireland whereby Irish people are categorised as overseas students. I hope that matter can be addressed.

Mr. Jerome Kelly

The position is governed by the regulations of respective EU member states. Somebody coming to Ireland from elsewhere in the EU would be able to access university education on the same basis as an Irish citizen. That is the position in respect of Northern Ireland and England. I understand that Scottish universities do not charge fees. An Irish student could therefore access courses in a Scottish university on a fee-free basis.

Acting Chairman

With respect, that is exactly the point I am making. If we are trying to produce graduates who can develop an island-wide knowledge economy and an alternative is on offer elsewhere, students will vote with their feet. When they go to Scotland, they do not return and we lose their professional skills.

Mr. Brian Power

We are conscious of the challenges that the Border areas present in terms of equity of access to third level education and further education. The reality of geography is that it is easier in some cases for students in the region to attend institutes in the North. In that context, we have provided that the maintenance grant is fully portable throughout the EU. However, grants for fees are not covered by that provision.

The issue of the bursaries and other financial aids provided by the authorities in the North is very sensitive because it is ultimately the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Executive. While higher education is not specifically within the jurisdiction of the North-South Ministerial Council, we consult our counterparts on an informal basis regarding the various issues that arise. I have no difficulty in seeking to make progress on that front.

Acting Chairman

We will use the issue as a learning curve in any measure we may introduce in the future.

Mr. Tom Boland

Participation in higher education in the Donegal region is quite good. The most recent figures from four years ago revealed a participation rate of 46%, which means it is probably over 50% at present. The issues raised by the Acting Chairman in regard to the cross-Border situation and the creation of an all-Ireland education system are valid and worth pursuing.

The Department of Education and Science's strategic innovation fund has provided money for an interesting feasibility study on how Letterkenny Institute of Technology and the University of Ulster could collaborate more closely in terms of creating an education area. In the event that the study progresses, I imagine that it will also examine barriers to movement across the Border because these could inhibit the creation of a dynamic education and economic area in the north west. I understand the study is well advanced and is showing promise in regard to developing better relations and a more joined-up education system at higher level.

It is a common complaint that fourth level is prioritised over third level but it is not true. Not only are both levels essential to Ireland's progress, but third level is also essential to fourth level. We cannot prioritise one over the other.

Two factors contribute to that sense at undergraduate level that they are being disadvantaged. The development of our research system is very recent. This year marks the tenth anniversary of the programme for research in third level institutions, the first major investment in Irish research, so we have been making that kind of investment for only ten years. Inevitably there are tensions in a situation where we are getting used to having significant research activity. The other element that drives this view, and also plays into the discussion we had earlier on overall funding, is the way research draws on the resources of an institution, more generally a university, such as administration or management time. That is normally dealt with through a research overhead. In Ireland the research overhead is 30%. That was decided through a study between Forfás and HEA a couple of years ago as an interim measure. In other countries the overhead tends to be much higher so we are re-examining what the appropriate level for that overhead should be and how it can be funded. There is a limited pot of funding no matter what one does, so if one puts in a higher overhead, one may reduce the funding available for research. There is a real dynamic there. The sense of grievance on the part of undergraduates is overstated.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I welcome the HEA and the Department of Education and Science. The goal of transition to a knowledge and innovation society is what we need, so we are agreed on that. I was struck by Mr. Boland's comment that participation rates have gone from 20% in 1980 to 55% in 2007. That is super. He is trying to move on to 72% by 2020. To what measures does Mr. Boland attribute this growth and what strategies were used to achieve it? What measures does he recommend or advise to ensure participation levels are maintained given the climate of registration fees increasing by 60%? What measures does he advise to increase participation?

I would also like the following figures. Of the 138,000 who participated in 2006-2007, what percentage were undergraduates, postgraduates and PhDs? I am tying this into a question on budget. Some €2 billion is being spent in 2008 on the third level sector. What percentage of that figure goes to postgraduate research, including masters and PhDs? It is a great deal of money but it is difficult to know where we are getting value for money. There is some collaboration between ITs and universities. I would like to know how much money is spent in that collaborative funding arrangement. The ITs have been, by their nature, more practical. The universities have engaged in what we call "blue skies" research. I want to know the outcomes in terms of opportunities arising from that research investment both separately and in collaboration.

Deputy Gogarty resumed the Chair.

Chairman

The Senator has made her question clear.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I seek some facts and results that would show value for money from that investment because I am conscious that we have——

Chairman

The Senator has made her point.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Do you think I have?

Chairman

She is asking for much information and it may not all be available today. I want to allow Deputy Quinn to finish his question.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

The division bell rang so I did not have the chance to get the answers. I will continue with a couple of questions, as was the norm for my colleague, Deputy Hayes, when this dialogue is finished.

Mr. Jerome Kelly

Senator Healy Eames sought some information, such as the percentage of undergraduates and postgraduates as part of the overall student numbers. Rather than trying to put the answers together here, we might come back to her on those points.

Chairman

Mr. Kelly may send a written response to the committee, for circulation to all members including Senator Healy Eames.

Mr. Jerome Kelly

The Senator also asked about the portion of the overall funding for the sector that would be spent——

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I asked for the figures of postgraduate versus undergraduate. Does Mr. Kelly have that figure?

Mr. Jerome Kelly

No.

Ms Mary Kerr

Although I do not have the precise number, of the 138,000, probably approximately 30,000 are postgraduate. I would have to check that and we will come back with the correct figures. Regarding how the funding splits between undergraduate and postgraduate, in the HEA we have been collecting unit costs from the universities for the last ten years or more and when one examines how those costs split between undergraduate and postgraduate courses, it is of the order of 20% to 25% in postgraduate area.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

So between 20% and 25% of that €2 billion in 2008 would be spent on postgraduate education?

Ms Mary Kerr

Our grant is €1.4 billion——

Deputy Brian Hayes

It is €2 billion in capital and current funding.

Ms Mary Kerr

Yes, it is €2 billion including capital. I talk about recurrent funding only because the unit cost relates to recurrent only. Approximately 20% to 25% of the current funding relates to postgraduate research courses.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I had a further question on value for money. I want to know the percentage that goes to universities, ITs and the collaborative link fund.

Ms Mary Kerr

There is significant collaboration going on between the universities and the ITs both under the programme for research and the strategic innovation fund. We would have to return to the committee with how that funding splits between the universities and ITs. We can do that but there are many projects ongoing.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

It is very important for the public to know that breakdown. That is the type of question I get a lot. We hear about the big amounts being spent on third level but we do not know the exact return to the individual.

Chairman

I presume, again, this information can be forwarded to the committee.

Mr. Tom Boland

The hard facts will be forwarded to the committee. Ms Kerr touched on collaboration between the universities and ITs. Collaboration at any significant level is a relatively new phenomenon in the higher education system. It was championed by the programme for research into third level institutions, PRTLI, and is very much a feature of the strategic innovation fund. A very large proportion of all projects funded under both those programmes are collaborative, either between universities, ITs or the two sectors. In general, the HEA would wish to see the system working much more as a system and broadening and deepening that collaboration way beyond research and into the undergraduate area. I have no reason to believe the Department would not share this view. There can be more value for existing resource as we remove unnecessary duplication from the system and that is probably one of the ways we will fund the system. That is an objective. I do not wish to be seen to be kicking everything to the national strategy exercise, which we will come back to in a moment in response to Deputy Quinn's question, but I hope an outcome from the strategy will be a much greater push to bringing the system together and working more effectively.

The most important outcome from investment in research is skilled people. The Department, HEA and other funders have never made any secret of that.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Is there a figure on the skilled people who have emerged?

Mr. Tom Boland

Although I do not know them off the top of my head, we have figures on the growth of master's degrees and PhDs in the past three years.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

What about jobs and opportunities?

Mr. Tom Boland

We probably do not have precise figures in terms of jobs and opportunities. It is true that the IDA, in much of its promotional literature about Ireland, points to our research system as being one of the major attractions. I do not know if statistics exist but there is anecdotal evidence that much foreign direct investment is attracted by those levels of skills. In a sense, it is Government policy for us to go this way in future.

Chairman

On a point of information for members of the committee, we would appreciate any written return of figures. If departmental officials and HEA representatives have travelled, it is the duty of Members to have asked questions through the parliamentary question system or otherwise or to have done research to have those figures and query them, as has been done in some cases. We will not have the same opportunity to bring the witnesses back to query the figures.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

As a Senator it is not possible for me to put down a parliamentary question, as the Chairman knows. It is important the information is direct.

Chairman

I have a constituency colleague, Senator Frances Fitzgerald, who always uses Deputy Brian Hayes to find answers to education questions. There is an opportunity.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

It is not possible for me.

Deputy Brian Hayes

She does not speak in Deputy Hayes's name, I hasten to add.

Chairman

I am not personalising the matter but we can get figures. We will not have an opportunity to query the figures so it would help if members, in future, would have some information on the figures so they can put the visiting delegations to the test within parameters. I ask Mr. Boland or Mr. Kelly to respond to Deputy Quinn's question as I understand——

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Other people got half a dozen bites of the cherry and I only got half a bite of one cherry.

Chairman

I can come back to the Deputy.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

It might be more effective if I asked the three questions together and they can decide who will answer. I am conscious of the time.

Chairman

I would be grateful if the Deputy could briefly summarise his three questions.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

The Chairman knows my questions are always brief. I will not repeat my first question. On participation rates, the figures on page 15 of the circulated document show how family background influences participation. In terms of participation from 1998 to 2004, higher professional participation is 100%, with farming as background at 89%, which has got to do with the nature of the grant system, a separate issue. The witnesses might confirm that this is correct as analysis and there is a commitment to education in rural farming in Ireland which is assisted by the grant system because it would be impossible to tally it economically otherwise. It then gets down to 50% under the skilled manual background.

Most educationalists I have spoken to would argue that the prospects for participation in third-level education from groups such as the skilled manual down to the lower two categories really originates in primary and secondary school. There must be joined-up thinking between the three major sections of the Department and the HEA. If a figure is to be achieved, getting it from the farming community means there must be financial assistance and the culture is there. It is likewise in improving accessibility for others. I have done some work with the Dublin Docklands Authority and the community there and when we get into the issue, more inputs are required at an earlier stage.

The witnesses are aware of the grave unhappiness among some traditional academics in universities with regard to the shift and emphasis into scientific research and the restructuring of the universities. It has expressed itself to me in two manifestations, which I will briefly outline. The first is the strength of Irish universities historically, and the recent upgrading of Trinity's ranking worldwide, which is due not to its extra scientific research but its humanities work. There is a feeling that at about 1% of the world's native English-language speakers — one must make an assumption about India — of 500 million people, we are top of the league in terms of Nobel and equivalent prizes for literature and so on. Is there a need to refocus the emphasis on science or balance it between science and the humanities, where we have built-in strengths? With English becoming an increasingly international language on a whole array of levels, attracting people to the area should be considered again.

Related to this, and with regard to the HEA as much as the Department, some concerns have been expressed about the quality of undergraduate education. It was expressed in the television programme last Tuesday and we had one of its participants here. What is the view of the witnesses on that?

Mr. Jerome Kelly

The Deputy's first question related to the national strategy. He asked if the strategy would focus on the national skills programme. The Minister will bring proposals in this regard.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I do not want the witness to reveal the secrets of the proposals but can we even get a look at the list of contents without the conclusion? We already have a national strategy. Will this be about access? It is fair enough if that is the case and we can talk about it. Will it be about new funding? If that is the case we can talk about that without commitment. Will it be about something else?

Mr. Jerome Kelly

It is intended to focus on bringing coherence to the many policies which exist and institutions — particularly the IUA — have pointed to a strategic outlook that would bring the disparate elements together. On the one hand there is the strategy for science, technology and innovation and on the other there is emphasis on humanities. There is also the national skills programme. To a certain extent the strategy aims to bring these and interested stakeholders or parties together to bring a shape to the higher education sector's future.

I ask Mr. Boland to deal with the Deputy's further questions.

Mr. Tom Boland

I will make a quick comment on the national strategy as it is of considerable importance to the HEA. I agree with Mr. Kelly on many elements and with regard to what the HEA would like to see from the strategy, there are three points. What are Ireland's objectives for our higher education research system, what structures are needed to support those objectives and how do we resource it? In a sense, it can be boiled down to those questions.

I do not disagree with the Deputy that achieving objectives with regard to participation is dependent on what happens in primary and post-primary education. I am not terribly well-informed on it but there are quite a number of measures in the Department at schools level which are in effect to promote the fact. In the HEA, in speaking to institutions we have always cautioned against passing the buck. The universities and institutes of technology also have a role to play and in fairness, they do this to a greater or lesser extent. A significant amount of time and resources are put into this.

I listened to the figures quoted by the Deputy on participation among professionals and so on. If we want to ensure we increase the participation rate and have the number of graduates our economy will need, we have no choice but to look towards those groups in society which are at present under-represented. Therefore, the education system must work to bring up the level of participation. The HEA, working closely with the Department of Education and Science, has recently published a new national plan for equity of access, which addresses a range of these issues and sets out some targets.

Chairman

Does it include, for example, joined-up thinking involving the primary and second level sectors? If one is in a disadvantaged area and leaves school early, one will never have the opportunity to make use of equity of access.

Mr. Tom Boland

It would be fair to say that it does.

The question of the shift to scientific research and disregard for the humanities is related to my answer earlier about the fact that our investment in research is at a relatively early stage; in fact, it is only ten years old. In addition, there are two notable things about scientific research. First, we were further behind the rest of the world in scientific research than in the humanities and, second, it is far more expensive. Thus, it is not surprising that a very large proportion of investment in research will go into science and many of the grand new facilities are scientific ones. However, there is no sense at Government level that the humanities are less important than the hard sciences in our economic and social development. Far from it. There is much evidence to show that a strong humanities base will be extraordinarily important to Ireland in the future with regard to the growth of the services sector. In that context, the HEA is conducting, with support from the Department, a foresight exercise which will examine the current state of the humanities, the strengths and weaknesses in this area, where we are internationally and what more we need to do to put the humanities in the position of making the best possible contribution to the economy and to society. The criticism is overdone.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I have one final question on this issue. We all know there is a problem with financing in education, and this has not been only in the past 12 months or so. We are below the OECD average in this regard and we have slipped, relatively speaking. Perhaps this should be directed at the HEA rather than at our civil service colleagues. Would there be some merit in mobilising a political consensus in this area, as was done with the aim of reaching our millennium goals in the United Nations target for overseas development aid? We could set a year and a target, perhaps overshooting the current OECD average of 5% of GDP. For example, we could aim to reach a target of 6% by 2012 and let the subsequent argument for resources between competing sectors be sorted out in a different way. The argument over portions will continue indefinitely if the plate is too small. If we do not enlarge the plate we will have this argument and the associated divisions perennially. Does the HEA have a view on this? I know it is dealing only with one sector, but it has recognised that the feed-in from primary and secondary education is critical to the third-level sector.

Mr. Tom Boland

Notwithstanding the proper role of Opposition and Government in our parliamentary democracy, I would suggest that the role of the education and research system in our future is so important as to benefit from a multi-party approach to the issue.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I am talking about a public political consensus, not just a party one.

Mr. Tom Boland

Indeed. One would hope the exercise of developing a national strategy would deal with that, certainly at the level of institutions and the community more broadly. It is certainly of sufficient importance at a political level that there should be a degree of conjoined thinking and co-operation.

Chairman

On this issue, Senator Healy Eames.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

It is related to the previous question. How will the representatives address the new challenges that have emerged as a result of the recent budget cuts? I am predicting there will be far lower participation levels among disadvantaged students who are not in disadvantaged areas — that is, disadvantaged students who are in non-DEIS schools at primary and secondary level — due to the removal of the book grant and the home-school liaison teachers who kept them at school, the increase in the pupil-teacher ratio——

Chairman

Senator, we do not need an explanation.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

——and the removal of English language teachers.

Chairman

Senator Ó Domhnaill has been waiting a long time to speak.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

They have my question.

Chairman

I ask the representatives to respond briefly.

Mr. Tom Boland

I would have to look at the historical background, but I have an intuitive sense that economic downturns tend to be better for participation in the sense that people are not attracted out of education and into employment.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Postgraduates have no jobs.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Not for people in disadvantaged areas if they cannot get there in the first place. That is the problem here.

Chairman

Is the area referred to by the Senator being examined?

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

This is an important question that deserves an answer. I am talking about students that will not reach college entry level because the supports they need to keep them in the system are now being pulled.

Mr. Tom Boland

I cannot comment in detail about what is happening at primary and post-primary level but I will go back to the point I was making to Senator Quinn earlier about increasing participation and the new national plan for equity of access, which does address some of those issues.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Will the HEA address the new challenges that have arisen as a result of the recent cuts?

Mr. Tom Boland

To be honest, I do not think the new challenges represent a proportionately huge increase over the challenges that existed previously.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

That is something teachers at primary and secondary level will be very disappointed to hear Mr. Boland say, because it shows there is no awareness of how subtle these cuts are.

Chairman

The Senator's statement has been noted. Deputy Hayes, do you have a related question?

Deputy Brian Hayes

I have a very different question, actually.

Chairman

Then we will wait for Senator Ó Domhnaill, who has been waiting patiently.

Deputy Brian Hayes

That would be wise.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

I welcome everyone to the committee this morning for what has been a good debate. We must consider the overall context, as mentioned by other members. If we go back to 1980, 20% of the student population entered third level education, while today we are talking about 138,000, or 35% of the student population. In addition, some of those — anecdotally, the figure seems to be around 30,000 — are going on to fourth level. I welcome the commitment in the budget of an additional €81 million in the capital allocation for third and fourth level education. While people can have certain issues with what was contained in the education budget, it is important to note this major allocation, which will provide better facilities, better classrooms and better standards not only from an educational point of view but also for extra-curricular facilities for third level students. This will have a positive benefit for students who choose to go on to third and fourth level education and to further develop their educational opportunities. The OECD report stated that Ireland and Spain together stand out as providing the most equitable access to higher education. Thus, while we can pick holes, it is important to note that point also.

Senator Healy Eames mentioned co-operation between the university sector and the IT sector. How can that be strengthened? Is enough being done? Is the co-operation between the heads of the universities and the heads of the IT sector strong enough?

I refer to the recent discussion with the heads of the universities about the reintroduction of fees and their suggestion that this should be considered by Government. Would this have implications in terms of access to third level education for those from disadvantaged backgrounds?

With regard to the student service charge, the Government has said it is willing to accept increases of up to €1,500, from the current €900, for individual higher education institutions in 2009. Regarding this charge, according to the delegates' submission, in 1998 the Higher Education Authority drew up a framework of good practice in respect of provision of student services to the publically funded higher education institutions. That report was written more than ten years ago.

I note from the report that the HEA has periodically written to all institutions to remind them "of their particular function in relation to the student service charge", requesting confirmation from each institution that the correct procedures are in place in accordance with that framework. Does this suggest that the correct procedures are not in place or are not implemented in certain institutions? If that were the case it would have direct implications on whether this fee would be introduced.

Chairman

I have a related question concerning the fees issue and the proposed introduction of fees. Last week the heads of the universities came before the committee and warned of a brain drain of academics if some form of fees, according to their proposed structure of a graduate tax, were not introduced. They claimed that if the money did not to go into higher education academics would go elsewhere. The Union of Students in Ireland, USI, and others suggest that if a graduate charge is brought in, or a charge as proposed by the Minister, this will lead to a brain drain of students, who will, in consequence, study and work abroad when we need them here for the country's economic recovery.

Obviously, the delegates cannot offer an opinion on that but I wish to know, looking at the students' contribution to which the Minister alluded, if the process will include an examination of whether a brain drain of academics or students might occur. What countries will be examined? Has a list been drawn up in this regard? In Australia and New Zealand there is evidence of criss crossing, whereby Australians go to study in New Zealand and vice versa, to avoid paying tax, with resultant low pay-off rate. I wish to know the scope of the study and this obviously ties in with Senator Ó Dómhnaill's second question. He also asked about co-operation between the IoTs and the universities and about the criteria in respect of the registration fee.

Mr. Jerome Kelly

Regarding co-operation between the university and IoT sectors it is of value to note projects that were submitted for purposes such as the strategic innovation fund. Of the 31 that were approved 13 involved alliances between universities and institutes of technology and this is a tangible indication of the collaboration taking place. On the research side, while I do not have the figures, there is increased collaboration between the two sectors.

There were further questions on implications for the disadvantaged, comments about brain drains, and the scope of the study of the suggested re-introduction of fees. The latter is in the early stages but to be able to provide an informed view the position in other countries is being examined. Australia has particular features associated with its fees structure and incorporates a loan system. Obviously we will look at the English system and will probably extend to examining one of the Scandinavian countries. In the round, the aim is to look at the diversity of arrangements out there to recognise the benefits and the down sides of each system and to gain an informed view as to whether a particular system is worthwhile.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

When that study is undertaken, which I welcome because we need to see how other people do these things, might the percentage spend of GDP be co-related into the educational sector, specifically into the third-level education sector in those countries, so that we can compare like with like?

Mr. Jerome Kelly

Yes, we can do that. To date, we have received bilateral comments from interested parties. For purposes of the study being undertaken, any comments or submissions interested parties might wish to make would be welcomed. The study is intended to look in the round at other systems without any pre-judgment of the outcome.

Mr. Tom Boland

I endorse with enthusiasm Senator Ó Dómhnaill's welcome for the increase in capital funding in the budget for higher education. It is an extremely positive sign for the sector. Regarding the framework for good practice on student services, we do not have any strong sense that this is being abused by the institutions but we feel that regular review ensures that institutions know that somebody is looking over their shoulders at how this money is being utilised. In that way we avoid any abuses.

Concerning fees, I will make no comment because it is ultimately a policy matter for Government. It is not an issue of fees or no fees. It goes back to an early point in our conversation, namely how we resource higher education.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Senator Ó Dómhnaill's point is very important with regard to registration charges. Whatever about the future, and we can have fascinating discussions about that, the bottom line is that next year students must stump up a charge increased from €900 to €1,500.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

The deadlines will be breached automatically as a consequence. There will not be a concomitant increase in services.

Mr. Tom Boland

Not necessarily.

Deputy Brian Hayes

What exactly is the role of the HEA in this? It gives guidelines about best practice to the institutions, to the 15 IoTs and the seven universities. Given that we see a 60%-70% hike in services fees, does the HEA see itself as the middleman between the students and the institutions in standing up for how this money is to be spent, the accountability around it and whether the money goes into services?

Mr. Tom Boland

The case made by the institutions for quite some time has been that the student service charge they get does not cover the cost of all the student services and therefore they must subsidise these from the core grant allocated to the HEA.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

If we had the audited accounts published from the various institutions we could all form an independent view. Does Mr. Boland believe they should publish such accounts?

Mr. Tom Boland

They publish audited accounts. There is a temporary hiatus, to do with pension funds and the Comptroller and Auditor General, an inability to sign off.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Do the accounts give the details that we need?

Ms. Mary Kerr

There is a note of the consolidated accounts of each of the universities that specifies how the student registration charge is spent over several headings that show income and expenditure.

Deputy Brian Hayes

They are audited externally, not by the Comptroller and Auditor General, even though they are presented to him. The universities' accounts are audited independently and then given to the Comptroller and Auditor General for comment. Am I correct in saying that?

Ms Mary Kerr

They have two audits. First, there is an external one and following that the Comptroller and Auditor General is the formal statutory auditor for the universities. He comes in afterwards and uses the detail provided by the external auditor.

Deputy Brian Hayes

My problem is when the heads of universities were before the committee some two weeks ago, they maintained they had not sought an increase in this charge and that the matter had not even been discussed. In the first paragraph concerning student charges, as Senator Ó Domhnaill correctly pointed out, the suggestion is the Government is willing to accept increases of up to €1,500, but if the universities were not looking for it, then from where did it come?

Mr. Tom Boland

There has been an ongoing conversation about the student service charge. A claim frequently made by the universities, which I believe is reasonable, is that the existing charge does not cover all their costs and it is true to state they did not specifically ask for an increase. It was a budgetary measure taken. However, it is consistent with their position.

Deputy Brian Hayes

The problem for students and parents is that they must pay the charge next year. If a parent has two children in college, the cost will rise from €1,800 to €3,000. The problem is there is little confidence that the money paid will be ring-fenced for student services, rather it is believed the money will be used to fund the significant financial deficit in higher education.

Mr. Tom Boland

It is reasonable to claim the money will go to student services and this is the expectation and the intention.

Deputy Brian Hayes

There is no one to oversee the process to determine if that will happen.

Mr. Tom Boland

Ms Kerr outlined how the allocation is accounted for in the consolidated accounts.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

I am pleased Deputies Ruairí Quinn and Brian Hayes have raised this point. I reiterate the words read by Deputy Hayes. The Government is willing to accept increases. I assume some institutions may take the responsible view and not increase the student service charge given the current economic climate. Am I correct to assume this or is it too much of an expectation? If all the institutions are meeting the standards set out in the framework for good practice, it would be wise if they provided the committee with a breakdown of the cost associated with student services or administration work carried out and so on. It is incumbent on us to investigate those fees as a committee.

Chairman

Is there a long-standing practice whereby the universities do not request funding for a specific area of expenditure but give an indication that they cannot provide the services with existing funding from the Department, the Higher Education Authority or other bodies? I seek a comment on the procedure rather than an opinion from the delegation on this matter. Is it normal procedure for the State or its organs to realise intuitively that these organisations need money and then provide it? Is there an anomaly between the stated position of the Minister and the Department of Education and Science which suggests funding was requested and the position that it was not requested but there is an intuitive response to the need? Perhaps that needs to be sorted out and a procedure put in place so that no additional funding will be provided unless the universities explicitly request funding in future.

Mr. Tom Boland

My departmental colleagues may wish to comment on this matter. I refer to the question of Senator Ó Domhnaill that responsible universities may not charge increased fees. I do not know what the institutions will do as it is a matter for them. However, in certain circumstances it may not be the most responsible course of action for a university to forgo the increased charge if indeed it is spending the money on student services, because the money has to come from some place.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

If a student is trying to park his or her car in Belfield and is lucky enough to find a place that does not have a pay-as-you-go facility, will that be included as a new student service or not? Is creative accountancy sufficient to allow that to happen?

Mr. Tom Boland

That is too much detail for me I am afraid. I simply do not know.

Deputy Brian Hayes

May I ask one further question——

Chairman

Yes, but I am conscious that Mr. Power wishes to comment also.

Deputy Brian Hayes

The Government announced in the budget that there would be no increase in maintenance grants next year. This will have a significant impact on children from poorer backgrounds wishing to remain in college. I seek clarity on this issue from the Department's perspective. Every year the qualifying income threshold is increased for third level maintenance grants which are administered by local authorities and will soon be administered by the vocational education committees when the legislation is passed. Will we see increases in income thresholds this year?

Chairman

I call Mr. Power to respond to this and the other relevant areas raised.

Mr. Brian Power

I will respond first to the other matter raised by Senator Ó Domhnaill, namely, the impact on access to education of the increases in the student service charge and any potential introduction of fees. The cost of the student service charge is fully covered for all students who meet means test requirements for the maintenance grant. The increase in the student service charge will not impact on those students. This applies to approximately 57,000 students.

Deputy Hayes referred to the increase in the thresholds for the maintenance grants. We increased the thresholds for the current academic year last July. The general threshold increased by 2.8% which tracks the rate of income. There was also an increase of 11.6% for the maintenance grant special rate which tracks the increases in social welfare payments.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Is that for this academic year?

Mr. Brian Power

Yes.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Is there a similar provision in the Estimates for next year?

Mr. Brian Power

No decision has been made at this point.

Deputy Brian Hayes

This is very important as this was not known and I appreciate the clarity provided. The Government said during the budget that there would be no increase in maintenance grants in the academic year 2009. If there is to be no increase in the thresholds for 2009, this will further disadvantage the 37% of students who obtain student services through——

Chairman

We only know that no decision has been made.

Deputy Brian Hayes

My point is if there is no provision for increases in the Estimates, we already know the decision, with respect.

Chairman

There may be a Supplementary Estimate.

Deputy Brian Hayes

This is very important information that the committee has gleaned from the evidence of the officials.

Mr. Brian Power

Although there has been no increase in the rate of the maintenance grant for the current year, we have increased the level of the thresholds, as this has been the policy up to now. It does not necessarily follow that there would be no increase in the thresholds because there is no increase in the rate of the grant.

Chairman

What will the impact be on students who fit the criteria? Will it be similar to this year?

Mr. Brian Power

Yes. The problem is next year.

Chairman

Mr. Power is saying that if the threshold is altered, then the financial impact will be no different to last year.

Deputy Brian Hayes

If the thresholds have been changed on an annual basis to ring-fence the students who need support for the student services charge and if there is no increase in thresholds next year, we will disadvantage further a group of students who are trying to stay in college.

Mr. Brian Power

That is absolutely the case and to reflect that the threshold has tracked the average industrial wage up to now. We do not know what it will be for next year and, therefore, it is not actually possible to say.

Chairman

We will have to bring this part of the meeting to a conclusion. We have been in discussion for one hour and 20 minutes but this was a substantive debate. I appreciate the contribution of the officials in answering thoroughly within the remit and Standing Orders and so on. I thank Mr. Kelly, Mr. Power, Mr. Boland and Ms Kerr for appearing before the committee and providing such an informative briefing.

The joint committee went into private session at 11.49 a.m. until 11.52 a.m.

Chairman

I welcome Councillor Mary Shields and Ms Patricia Potter, Director of the Dublin Regional Authority and Mr. Robert Collins, Head of the Irish Regions Office, Brussels and coordinator of the Irish delegation to the Committee of the Regions. I draw the delegation's attention to the fact that committee members have absolute privilege, but witnesses appearing before the committee do not. It is the practice to take in one visiting delegation on a committee sitting day, but given Senator Ó Domhnaill's pleadings on their behalf, we were able to bring in the delegations to convey their position on the report and their assessment of it.

We will take the full report as read. If the delegation could outline the executive summary, Deputy Hayes and I may have some questions. We would like to hear, in particular, the delegation's experience of it and how the recommendations could be implemented in Irish education.

Ms Mary Shields

I thank the Chairman and will be as brief as possible. I thank him for the invitation to address the Committee and for the opportunity to present our opinion. I also thank Senator Ó Domhnaill for his support in facilitating this presentation. I am accompanied by Ms Patricia Potter, who is the director of the Dublin Regional Authority and secretary to the Irish delegation to the Committee of the Regions and by Mr. Robert Collins, head of the Irish Regions Office in Brussels and coordinator of the delegation. They are also available for any questions the committee may have. I also thank Mr. Mairtín O'Fathaigh, Professor of Adult Education in UCC, for his help in the formulation of opinion.

The Committee of the Regions, the EU representative body of local and regional authorities, is a response to the European Commission action plan on adult learning. As committee members are aware, the need to continuously adapt and upgrade knowledge, skills and competencies is a prerequisite in today's knowledge-based economy. Engaging in learning is also an important step for those outside the workforce for personal development and enhancing self-esteem. This is well recognised and is a central objective of the Lisbon Strategy for growth and jobs, and the various national programmes in place to deliver this strategy's objectives. In 2000 the member states agreed five specific targets in the education and training field as part of the Lisbon Strategy, one of which is a 12.5% participation rate of the working adult population in life-long learning by 2010. This target is unlikely to be achieved across the European Union.

I refer the committee to appendix one, which gives an overview on current progress in reaching this target. It can be seen that we are now at 7.6%. We are middle of the road in comparison with the other 27 countries, some of whom have gone far ahead of us. Sweden has reached approximately 33%.

The action plan on adult learning aims to help remove the barriers that prevent adults from engaging in learning activities, and to improve the quality and efficiency of the adult learning sector. It complements this with a call to ensure adequate levels of investment in and better monitoring of the adult learning sector. It invites the member states to work on a number of action areas detailed in the report.

My opinion, which is a response to the action plan, was adopted by the plenary assembly of the Committee of the Regions in June. As a rapporteur of the Committee of the Regions, one has to adopt a reasonably neutral approach, and look to the European dimension, but as an Irish representative, one tries to promote and defend Irish interests and relay experiences as much as possible. This is something all members of the Committee endeavour to do. The opinion is appended to my report, but I would like to outline some main themes.

We welcome the action plan, as we believe it has the potential to develop the adult learning sector, to open up the accessibility of learning to certain non-participant groups and to do so with respect for the diversity of European learning traditions. There are no easy, cheap or quick solutions to increasing participation in adult learning, especially among certain societal groups. What is necessary is a change of mind set and an attitudinal shift embedded across society.

An integrated, strategic approach is necessary to redress the exclusion of some societal groups from the learning process, to nurture a culture of learning on a continuous basis for all citizens. The countries that have the highest adult participation rates in learning are those that have an established, coherent and comprehensive national strategy for life-long learning. These include Sweden, Norway and the UK.

As implementation is now the key challenge, we welcome the references throughout the action plan to the importance of partnership, and the capacity of authorities to mobilise institutions and stakeholders at all levels, including local and regional levels, through learning partnerships.

In ensuring the delivery of an adult learning service, and the objectives of the action plan — the issues of finance and funding remain critical — we suggest more could be done to provide sustainable funding for adult learning by both the public and private sectors. We recommend that in the interests of cost-effective revision, better use could be made of second level schools. Community schools do a great job in the provision of adult education, but second level schools are closed for much of the time, and we would love to see them opened up to people for adult learning. We would also like to see other public resources such as libraries used for adult learning.

We fully agree with the emphasis in the action plan on the quality of the early learning sector, and in particular, the professionalisation of adult learning personnel. These people are the pivot around which policy is made and to learning practice on the ground, and we need to continue to invest in our teachers and trainers. The ongoing identification of good practice at European level on professional development will be a useful contribution in improving quality.

I, and my colleagues, are available to answer questions.

Chairman

Before I call on Deputy Hayes, has the full report been circulated to the Department?

Ms Mary Shields

It was sent to the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science, Deputy Seán Haughey.

Deputy Brian Hayes

I congratulate Councillor Shields and her colleagues from the Committee of the Regions. It is very important for members of our local government to see exactly what is happening within the EU and to learn from best practice. As Councillor Shields has already pointed out, we are under performing in this whole area. While the participation rate at 12% is a goal, our participation rate which I thought was 8%, is actually less, and it is something we need to improve upon. That requires dedicated, ringfenced funding, and a much greater commitment within the education sector to deal with education.

We dealt with this issue in some of the presentations we received. We had the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science, Deputy Haughey, before the joint committee. It would be useful, as the Chairman as highlighted, to make sure the Department follows up on this, to ask the Department what action it has taken on foot of the opinion formed through the committee.

Chairman

Is it the agreement of the committee members present — because we are not calling for a motion or anything — that we ask the Minister of State to respond——

Deputy Brian Hayes

That would be a good idea.

Chairman

——to the presentation and to the report?

Deputy Brian Hayes

That is a very good proposal.

I compliment Councillor Shields. If there is one thing she has learned from her observations at EU level on what we need to do, what is it? I appreciate Councillor Shields mentioned the way schools are utilised as a means of helping people to improve the experience of school. Many of the reason people do not go back to education is because they have had a bad experience in school. We have got to change that mind set.

Ms Mary Shields

We need to do two things, first, develop a good national strategy and, second, as the Deputy has said, bring about a change in attitude. We want to encourage people to come back, make it interesting for them and let them see it is good for personal development. Most of us got only one bite at the cherry. If we did not go to university after secondary school we did not get an opportunity. Certainly I did not. Today it is different and we want to encourage more people to go back and do courses. Does that answer the Deputy's question?

Deputy Brian Hayes

I thank Councillor Shields.

Ms Mary Shields

The Department of Education and Science, in conjunction with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is at an advanced stage in developing a national strategy. I hope that will go a long way towards meeting the objectives and suggested actions under the action plan, in terms of removing barriers, opening up accessibility to all learners and progressing to qualifications that are recognised.

Chairman

Senator Ó Domhnaill indicated he had more than three questions. If he goes through them quickly he may be able to get them all in.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

I will be as brief as possible. I welcome Councillor Shields and members from the Committee of the Regions to the joint committee. I acknowledge there are not as many committee members present as usual but there are many things happening around the House today.

When I read the report prepared by Councillor Shields I was taken aback by its content and quality and how it impacted not only in Ireland but across Europe and how it could give us an understanding of where we lie in Ireland. I know the Minister of State has read the report and that he was very impressed by its content. I agree that a copy of the report and any additional material should be forwarded to the Department.

Unfortunately, I did not hear Councillor Shields' presentation. In her view, what is the most important issue, from an Irish viewpoint, in regard to the action plan on adult learning? What actions could councils or local authorities take to implement it in their own regions to assist with developing adult learning opportunities in each of the regions? In her report Councillor Shields mentioned the various forms of learning, formal learning, informal learning and so on. Are there definitions in terms of the distinctions between these forms of learning?

This is the first time the joint committee has had a member of the Committee of the Regions address it. Perhaps Councillor Shields will outline the role of the Committee of the Regions and how it could interact with the work of our committee in terms of educational development. I have some more questions but given the circumstances I will leave it at that.

Ms Mary Shields

I will begin with the question on the Irish perspective. I have mentioned that already what we are doing in terms of a national strategy and bringing about attitudinal change. Like most other member states we are on course to meet the EU target of 12.5% adult participation in lifelong learning by 2010. We have done well in the education and training targets set and in terms of added learning the trend is going in the right direction. The two key issues I have taken from working on an opinion for the Committee of the Regions are the need for a coherent and comprehensive national strategy for lifelong learning, for added learning to be a key component and in the long term to effect change in our society towards learning. We must develop a culture of continuous learning, where learning opportunities are available to all and where learning is not seen as a cost but as an investment for the future. That is very important.

On the issue of how local authorities respond to adult learning, the system of local government in Ireland is somewhat more restricted than in other European countries because local authorities here still have responsibility for the general economic well-being of their areas but they do not involve themselves directly in education.

Chairman

The VECs for example.

Ms Mary Shields

Yes, they are on the boards but they are not responsible for education. In other European countries they are responsible for education so we are different in that aspect. Local authorities here are responsible for the general well-being of their areas and for providing key public services to local communities. They can do much to support lifelong learning. In regard to the action plan on adult learning, its focus on removing the barriers to learning for more disadvantaged groups is something that needs a local dimension. The diversity of local communities served by local authorities, their different demographic profiles and new migrant populations require tailored local responses, working with local agencies, community groups and so on.

Local authorities have a key role in planning and managing public spaces and infrastructure which could provide opportunities for learning, for example, the library service. The increased use of ICT in libraries and the opening up of archives that libraries may have provide ideal informal learning opportunities for use. The staff of libraries can do much to help. One of our councillors, when looking for more money for the provision of libraries, always says the library is the poor man's university. I believe that too, because it is accessible to people and is non-threatening. One can go in there and study what one wants.

Public museums and galleries offer a good service for learning new skills and new things for incidental learning. Local authorities can also finance or facilitate securing funding for community development and citizenship type initiatives that work towards empowering people and guiding them towards engaging in learning. Local authorities working with local partnership companies for example and other local community organisations could play a more significant role in bringing about the required change in learning.

Some colleagues on the Committee of the Regions have said their local or regional authority is also an educational authority. Senator Ó Domhnaill asked for a definition of formal and informal learning. In regard to the definition of formal, informal and non-formal, I struggled to grasp the difference, in particular, between informal and non-formal. Formal learning is typically provided by education or training instructions such as universities, schools and so on that lead to certification. Non-formal learning is not provided by an education or training institution and typically does not lead to certification. However, it is intentional on the part of the learner and has structured objectives, times and support.

Informal learning results from daily activities. I call what we learn from what we do every day the university of life. If one is involved in sport or some other activity and regardless of the job one has, one learns some new skill. When someone goes for an interview, and if they have the basic qualifications for the job, the additional informal learning they have acquired such as the social skill of interacting with people is important. My colleagues might like to add to what I have said. I appreciate the time constraints members are under.

Chairman

That is a fairly comprehensive response.

Ms Mary Shields

I also welcome the fact that the Minister has an interest in the report.

Chairman

That is important. I have some queries also. I support what Ms Shields said about the library service. It is unfortunate that the State grants for school libraries has been cut in this year's budget. That does not send out the right message. The service is an important aspect in the creation of a culture of learning.

Ms Shields expressed the need to enhance the participation of older persons in particular and to challenge the myths and stereotypes regarding older adult learning. Will she outline some of the myths and stereotypes that prevent older people becoming involved in learning? It is important that school facilities are used properly, although some people have the fear of God in them about going back to school. That is the reason libraries are so important.

I presume Ms Shields is pleased that the Government is responding with a national strategy but that she would want it to take on board some of the best practices she has observed and on which she has reported to the Minister. We have noted them in the report and in her contribution. Local authority members can play an important role in this respect through membership of the VECs but also through the role they play in the area based partnerships. Local authorities work closely with those bodies and there is a community element involved. How can the myths and perceptions that are barriers to older people returning to education be addressed? It is one thing to try to encourage people to participate but how can that be done in practical terms? What are the barriers for older people in particular returning to education?

Ms Mary Shields

People are fearful. It is a long time since they were in education. They are daunted by the prospect. People must be well informed about what is available and offered encouragement to return to study. We should tell them that they will get a great kick out of returning to study a new skill. Any money spent on encouraging older people to return to education is worthwhile. It keeps people, particularly those who are retired, occupied. They learn new skills such as how to use the Internet and so on. It is beneficial from an economic point of view because it gives people a sense of well-being. They are no longer sick, depressed and so on.

Chairman

It saves the health service a fortune. As the clerk has said, Alzheimer's disease is a case in point——

Ms Mary Shields

Exactly.

Chairman

——as well as other issues involving physical and mental well being.

Ms Mary Shields

It is about keeping our brains active.

Chairman

It is not rocket science but yet it is not happening.

Ms Mary Shields

In regard to finance, the action plan does not deal with issues of finance except to outline certain EU programmes such as the European social fund. Ireland receives €375 billion——

Chairman

€375 million.

Ms Mary Shields

I beg your pardon. I wish it were €375 billion.

Chairman

The bankers might have something to say about that.

Ms Mary Shields

We will receive €375 million between 2007 and 2013. That is significant funding. The Exchequer will allocate a substantial amount also, some €7.5 billion, over the period of the national development plan to support mainly training and skills development. That is significant funding from the Government in this respect.

Ms Patricia Potter

There are a number of examples of local activity with the universities that could be looked at again. For example, DCU and some of the other universities examine access scholarships. That started in 1989 with four students from Ballymun, and they worked with the local community there. They now have almost 500 students coming from 50 second level schools with that same type of demographic. Many of those access scholarships are funded publicly as well as privately. The national strategy might examine those types of issues with a view to furthering them.

The universities are also considering holding Traveller parent development days. That is to encourage the Traveller community to access further education not only to third level but sometimes to second level. They have open days where the Traveller parents can come along and hear from other Travellers who have gone through the system and come out the other side. Those are the types of activities the national strategy may examine.

From the point of view of the local authorities, one of the issues we are examining in the Dublin region, although it may be examined in other regions, is the idea of trying to instill education at the very youngest level to ensure that when young children become adults they do not get caught in the net of trying to access adult education for the first time. We are trying to introduce them to various forms of education, for example, science. The local authorities developed a science bus project with DCU which visits the national schools and teaches children about science. Its benefits are twofold. It encourages young people, when they go to third level, to consider studying the sciences as an option but it also informs them that there are other opportunities, as Senator Keaveney mentioned in regard to the previous presentation, to be creative and to use the creative side of their brain as well as their notational skills. Those types of activities could be examined.

Ms Mary Shields

I was asked the reason people are not participating in adult education. One daunting aspect is the over-reliance on the use of information and communications technology and e-learning to deliver adult learning. People may be fearful of it, and disadvantaged groups do not have these facilities. An over-reliance on such technology is a barrier. Another barrier is the cost involved.

Chairman

That is a fair comment because the thought of using a computer might inhibit a person from moving on.

Ms Mary Shields

It squeezes out the disadvantaged groups the action plan is trying to reach out to, given that they may have restricted access to ICT.

Chairman

I have to cut short the meeting but I thank the delegates for attending and being so helpful. As well as the detail that has been sent to the Minister, the delegates' comments will be passed on to the Minister and his officials. I hope they will take on board their suggestions to improve access and make it easier for older people to learn and not have such a phobia about it. I realise they had to wait for the long Higher Education Authority and departmental discussion, which is part of a series we are running, to conclude but I thank them for attending.

Ms Mary Shields

We are very grateful for the opportunity to come before the committee because the Committee of the Regions work is not highlighted enough in Ireland. Many of the people in the Department of Education and Science and others do not know what is going on in that regard and this is a great opportunity for us to portray the work we are trying to do as members of the Committee of the Regions. I thank the Chairman and the members.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.20 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 6 November 2008.