JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE debate -
Thursday, 12 Feb 2009

Educational Institutions: Discussion with ESD Training.

Chairman

We are now meeting in public session. Given the time constraints, both in terms of the expected vote at 10.30 a.m. and the fact that Mr. Harte must be in UCD at 12 noon to give another presentation, I propose that we take Mr. Harte's contribution first and then adjourn for the vote in the Dáil.

I welcome Mr. Gavin Harte from ESD Training. I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name, or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. We are aware that Mr. Howard must make an important presentation elsewhere and a Dáil vote will be called at 10.30 a.m. Rather than deal with private business, we decided it would be expedient to hear Mr. Harte's presentation first.

Mr. Gavin Harte

I am here in the context of sustainable development and particularly the UN decade of education for sustainable development, which we are in the middle of at present. This concerns how education for sustainable development can be embedded in the third level sector, the area in which I am most interested. Sustainable development is defined as development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their needs. The Department of Education and Science is co-ordinating the process of developing and implementing an Irish strategy for education for sustainable development.

In December 2007, at Croke Park, there was a feedback and consultation process with players in the area to discuss how this strategy might develop. I have not heard back on the process since and I would like to ask whether a strategy for education and sustainable development is in process. Embedding this within the education system will be a key element in the process.

The members may be aware of the story of Cassandra, a Greek goddess given the gift of prophecy but the curse of nobody believing her prophecies. Sustainable development and education for sustainable development fits that bill. The evidence is quite clear if we examine some of the top level indicators around this story. I refer to the intergovernmental panel on climate change, the recent International Energy Agency reports and the UN education programmes millennium assessment. Human development and society is beyond the carrying capacity of our planet and the current economic crisis has at its root this unsustainable human development at planetary level.

In this context, how are we educating and bringing these messages to our students in universities, in secondary level and in primary schools? Are we giving them a grounding in a world that is changing rapidly? I suggest we are not. In that context, I have been working on a visiting lecture programme for education at third level. This is part of an overall process I have done with partners, the EPA, ENFO, Comhar and the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources to devise a method for embedding the process of registration within third level.

The first step we have identified is to get stories in there, to explain that climate change is happening now, that it is likely we will see the 100-year flood becoming the five-year flood within 50 or 60 years if sea levels rise in the way scientists predict. Are we preparing our students for this changing world? We need to provide an introduction to this concept and to the challenges and changes that are inevitable and happening now and which will start to accelerate. Are we doing this within our decision-making processes, local authorities and Departments? Are we embedding it at an academic level? Are modules being created for students in which they can gain an understanding of the complexity and interconnectedness that is education for a sustainable development?

The purpose of my presentation is to sum up the strategy for education, how this is advancing, its importance within the Department of Education and Science, the need to give students and decision makers an understanding of the necessary changes and what is happening in the real world, and the need to embed sustainable development within our education system in a way that is meaningful and real.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Harte. Members will now ask questions to which Mr. Harte can respond.

Deputy Frank Feighan

I welcome Mr. Harte. The national conference to provide feedback on the draft discussions was held in Croke Park in 2007. The process appears to have stalled. Will Mr. Harte elaborate on this?

Mr. Gavin Harte

There is a requirement for each state to produce a strategy for education in sustainable development. The deadline for this has passed. We have heard nothing back about the draft document. As far as I understand, the officer in charge of the process has moved elsewhere. It appears to have stalled.

Deputy Frank Feighan

Who is responsible for this draft development? Is it the Government?

Mr. Gavin Harte

It is the Department of Education and Science.

Deputy Frank Feighan

We hear all about climate change and the Green Party is in government. Surely, this should be a top commitment. What can we do to try to break the impasse?

Mr. Gavin Harte

Whether it is a priority is what I see as the issue. Is it a priority to include education on sustainable development? We are in the middle of the UN decade for education on sustainable development. It is the key element in embedding the core values and understanding of sustainable development within our education system. The question I would ask is whether doing this is a priority. I am unaware of whether it is. Certainly, the stalled process would suggest it has not received the attention it deserves.

Deputy Frank Feighan

Mr. Harte has attended this committee meeting and highlighted a situation which he feels is not getting the attention of the Government. This committee should bring this matter to the Minister for Education and Science and to the Government. Every day we hear lectures on this topic. This should be a priority. A conference was held in December 2007 on a very serious issue. I do not want to play political games but this issue is one which the Chairman and his party believe is important. Something should come from this meeting to state this should be a priority and the impasse should be broken.

I do not want to play politics but I find it unbelievable that somebody should have to come here today to highlight the fact that a serious conference was held which was funded and which people attended but nothing has happened since December 2007. This is wrong and I propose that it be brought to the attention of the Minister.

Chairman

I suggest that as the lead spokesperson for the Opposition, if Deputy Feighan would like to make a proposal to the Minister in this regard, the Chairman would welcome it. I am glad that since Deputy Feighan found out today that the conference was held in 2007, he has been very vehement in his insistence that the Government responds. It should also be noted that as Chairman it was at my insistence that Mr. Harte appeared before the committee so at least one partner in government is serious about the issue.

Senator Cecilia Keaveney

I am sorry I missed part of Mr. Harte's contribution but I read the literature which was sent. I am very interested in the issue of sustainable development. On Tuesday in the Seanad, we had a debate and made statements on education. As a nation we must decide to examine education fundamentally and move away from reading, writing and arithmetic as sole subjects for the sole goal of exams and careers.

I am a musician by background and I have been fighting for acknowledgement that learning music helps with mathematics and also helps one read and write because music is concerned with rhythm and co-ordination. However, the focus of parents, never mind Government policy, is that they want their children to read, write and do mathematics and music is grand if one has extra time and sustainable development is also brilliant because they know it is in the future.

However, I want to ask about the mindset of people. How do we address the issue of changing Government policy and having sustainable development as a half hour class at second level? I believe other countries, perhaps Norway or Sweden, have a committee of the future and plan not for five, ten or 15 years ahead but for 25 years ahead. They are trying to think what are the issues of the future and gearing everything towards these. I think this is where Mr. Harte is coming from.

Speaking as a realist and a politician, the question is how to get the public to believe in sustainable development as a subject, principle and concept. Like using music to try to help one with one's reading and writing, there is a longer and more successful way of going about things than going straight at them. At present, not only Government policy but everyone's belief is reading, writing, arithmetic, examinations and university, life. There is a bigger circle we should circumnavigate and absorb.

Small initiatives, such as the green flag initiative, have been key in starting to break the chain or make an inroad. I see the levels of excitement in primary schools about dealing with the problem of plastic bags or whatever the project happens to be. Is enough being done? Can this be expanded to simple things such as reducing energy costs in schools? Some schools want wind turbines. The reality of the national grid is interfering with this. How many circular arguments does Mr. Harte come across which stop progress from his perspective? Perhaps it is a complex question.

Mr. Gavin Harte

To address the Senator's question, as I understand it, sustainable development within current education systems is a difficult fit because it is an holistic system. It requires an understanding of how things join together. In a more linear approach to education, which is in terms of three or four hours, often this holistic understanding is missing. In a past life I was director of An Taisce and the green schools programme is a hugely successful example of integrating the concepts and ideas of sustainable development within primary level. One will find that as students move through the second level system, there is less engagement and at third level, where students start to specialise and put down their roots and state, "I am an engineer" or whatever, the integration of the concepts is lost.

We can look at this in two ways. There is the structural approach, which is a huge nut to crack and has to be put further down the line. From the context of embedding it now, an holistic system is emerging within third level which is the modular system. A student studying medicine can do a module in music and gain credits for it. There is that potential for a more holistic education system. I suggest that a way to embed sustainable development within the education system is to have all universities put in place at least a module covering education on sustainable development so that engineers, music students, doctors or whoever can come together and at least learn for two hours or the length of the module what is sustainable development and thereby begin to understand the issues.

From my experience of lecturing to students, I am aware that there is a real thirst for a better understanding of climate change, energy depletion and biodiversity loss. However, they are not receiving the insights they need in this regard. For example, we are teaching our engineers that a flooding event such as the one which occurred in Ringsend in 2002 will happen only every 100 years when it is more likely that rising sea levels will result in such floods occurring at ten year intervals within the next 50 years. We are not preparing them for that reality. Sustainable development attempts to adapt to a world that is transforming beyond humanity's limited sense of control within a changing ecosystem.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I welcome Mr. Harte. Social, environmental and scientific education is part of the primary curriculum. That is the correct place for the topic of sustainable development. A great resource, Team Planet, which was developed by Mary Immaculate College several years ago, is available to the Department of Education and Science should it see fit to use it.

I understand Mr. Harte is here to discuss sustainable development in the context of the school building programme. Given that the Minister for Education and Science appears to be prioritising buildings over the relationship between teachers and pupils, Mr. Harte may be on a winner in this regard. However, I want to know more about the value for money factor. What would be the cost of including a sustainable development ethos in our building programme? The long-term gains appear obvious but how much time would be required to recoup the initial costs? How can we be convinced that this is the way to proceed, given that the Minister is already investing in school buildings? What should he be doing?

Mr. Gavin Harte

We may have a misunderstanding in that I am not here to share my building expertise.

Chairman

To clarify, Mr. Harte was invited because that subject was being discussed by the committee. If he did not appear before us today, we might not have had an opportunity to meet him for another six to eight months. His area of expertise is closely related to the other issues we are discussing. Senator Healy Eames raised a valid point about the expertise of engineers. There are significant opportunities for people trained in the use of new technologies for retrofitting buildings and installing new energy systems. Perhaps Mr. Harte might address more broadly the points made in that regard.

Mr. Gavin Harte

I have a lot of experience in the area of sustainable building development. I started a project in County Tipperary, the Village, Ireland's first ecological housing settlement. I understand how design can be made sustainable. It is a matter of holistic understanding and integrating systems in order that they work together naturally. Put simply, a building that allows natural light to enter reduces the need for artificial lighting. A building passively ventilated reduces the need for forced ventilation systems. A building with a southern aspect and which captures solar energy does not need as much heat. This is merely sensible design and if carried out at the outset, significant energy savings can be made over the lifetime of the building. It is a no-brainer when it comes to design, yet we continually exclude these slightly expensive additions at design phase, while paying substantially more over the lifetime of the building. If a child is educated in a school building designed sustainably and intelligently, he or she gains an understanding of holistic systems and design at a basic level. Even as a place to learn, it makes sense.

The representatives from the Department of Education and Science will probably give the committee a better insight into cost factors but from my experience, sustainable design makes economic sense over the lifetime of a building.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Is Mr. Harte suggesting a ten year return?

Mr. Gavin Harte

Yes, that is a reasonable suggestion. With increasing energy costs, the returns could come even earlier.

Chairman

As a vote has been called in the Dáil, we will have to suspend in approximately five minutes. Deputies may leave now if they wish.

Deputy Beverley Flynn

I am interested in sustainable development, particularly in the planning process. I cannot understand why local authorities insist on traditional house styles with small windows in a country with poor light. The same local authorities promote sustainable development policies and the building of houses in villages. I do not agree with these policies. I will put my cards on the table by saying I come from County Mayo where the traditional style of housing development was scattered settlements. Why are housing guidelines out of sync with the concept of sustainable development in making maximum use of light?

Sustainable development education is successful at primarily level, as the green schools initiative demonstrates, but until such time as it forms part of the curriculum at second and third level, the occasional lecture will not raise sufficient interest in the subject.

Deputy John O’Mahony

What is the effect on students of prefabs and buildings which are falling apart? Does this do damage to the aims which Mr. Harte set out?

Mr. Gavin Harte

It does but we have only begun to understand the concept of sustainable development since the 1992 Earth Summit in Rio. If a child is housed in an old school built without such an understanding, the opportunity arises for retrofitting. Out of the total Irish housing stock of 1.7 million homes, at least 1 million require retrofitting to some degree. By upgrading their homes, people will gain an understanding that increasing energy costs, warm homes and healthy lifestyles are interconnected. We have opportunities to make old, leaky schools more comfortable and to teach students in the process.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Harte for raising important issues. I recently attended a seminar organised by Cultivate on these issues. The Department has fallen behind but I hope Mr. Harte's presentation will act as a spur.

Deputy Frank Feighan

I propose that the Department consider revisiting the process which started in 2007.

Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Frank Feighan

We have so many conferences but nothing is done afterwards.

Sitting suspended at 10. 40 a.m. and resumed at 11.10 a.m.