I welcome from the Department of Education and Science Mr. John Dolan, senior engineer, school building unit, and Mr. Gavan O'Leary, principal officer, modernisation and policy unit. I draw their attention to the fact that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. The officials are here to talk about sustainable development in school buildings, a matter which should be of interest to many members and parents. In that context, I ask Mr. Dolan to begin with a short presentation on the proposals to ensure sustainable development in school buildings which will be followed by questions from members.
Sustainable Development in School Buildings: Discussion with Department of Education and Science.
Mr. John Dolan
Ensuring sustainability in school design is a key part of the school procurement process. For the past 12 years sustainability has been focused through a process we call the DART approach, which is an acronym for design, awareness, research and technology. These are the four key strands we identified as the basis of sustainable and low-energy design in school buildings.
The programme currently has 39 projects in it at various stages of completion. Our methodology is to test new applications, technologies or design procedures on one or two schools before they are incorporated into the main technical guidance documents, which then apply to all new school buildings, extensions and refurbishment.
Schools are different from some other buildings in that they have some specific issues relating to relatively short operational hours, as compared with nursing homes or hospitals for example, which would have a 24-hour energy demand. They have no building management specialists on site and energy and sustainability are not necessarily a core function of a school; that is the education of children. Systems must be simple, reliable and easily operable and understood in that scenario. To synopsise on our success through this programme to date, all schools built in accordance with our technical guidance documents from 2004 are capable of being over twice as energy efficient as best international practice currently.
How do we achieve this? We have done this through a hybrid approach of maximising nature and utilising technologies. With regard to maximising nature we have focused on passive solar design. What we look for is to orientate the building towards an easterly direction so we can benefit from sun for early morning heat-up in a school scenario. The children have gone in the afternoon so it is slightly different from other buildings and houses. We look for a daylight factor of 4.5, which in simple terms means 70% to 80% of teaching hours should have no need for electrical lighting in a school environment.
We look for both good quality high and low-level natural ventilation, which should be draught free. All these factors are tested prior to construction at design stage through computer modelling and simulation programmes, so we know they will work. That has been a compulsory factor of our design since 2004.
With regard to utilising technologies, we continue to look for enhanced insulation opportunities. Since 2004 we have had an airtightness standard introduced in schools which is twice the standard of building regulations which have been introduced in the past year. To benefit from the daylighting design strategy, we incorporate automated lighting controls on our systems as well. We install the most efficient heating systems available on the market, and unlike years ago, when one thermostat could control the whole school, all teaching spaces have their own individual digital temperature control for each classroom. We have the most advanced water conservation technologies in place and we include rainwater recovery systems.
The programme has a 40% renewable context. We are looking at wind, solar, photovoltaic, rainwater, geothermal and biomass and district heating systems. We have the largest biomass research project in the country at the moment with 15 systems under test. The programme also focuses on existing stock and there are a number of energy guides being developed and due for publication next month. We have developed with Sustainable Energy Ireland an energy mentoring programme under the public building sector, which will commence this year. Evaluators will go into schools and mentor them for half a day on their energy conservation and opportunities for energy saving. We have a demonstration project looking at thermal upgrades in existing school stock. We will also have a dedicated website coming on-line in March this year, which will focus on schools and opportunities which exist for energy conservation in schools.
The incoming energy performance building directive has given us an opportunity to put an on-line certification process in place, where schools will be able to go on-line, insert energy-related information and obtain an advisory report and BER certificate. That is a joint project with Sustainable Energy Ireland. It will be set up to allow schools develop this programme, get pupils to collect the required information and bring about a broader focus on energy in this respect.
With regard to sustainability awareness, Sustainable Energy Ireland has an excellent programme in place for schools with An Taisce and Green Flags. It is supported by the Department as well. We have also developed a life-learning interactive child-friendly touch screen, which operates in real time in two test buildings where the kids can gain an understanding of the energy consumption in their school. The results are not displayed in kilowatt hours per square metre or anything as scientific as that but rather the equivalent energy to heat kettles of water and so on. We also have a pilot scheme with transition year students where they set up various businesses to develop business acumen. We have an energy agency approach in Dundalk under the Dundalk 2020 project, again with Sustainable Energy Ireland.
Over the years we have received many national and international awards for our programme but the most reward has been the fact that under the building and energy rating system from this year, we have taken a 2006 school, built in accordance with the 2004 technical guidance documents, and achieved a top rating of A3 on that. That would be the standard that all similar buildings would achieve currently.
Thank you. Apologies have been received from Deputy Brian Hayes. Senator Cecilia Keaveney spoke to the delegation earlier and has indicated her interest. Senator Fidelma Healy Eames has also indicated her apologies. It is worth noting that the only members currently attending this committee are Green Party Deputies. Deputies from Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Labour and Sinn Féin could learn something about this schools issue. Fine Gael have been saved by Deputy Frank Feighan.
The low turn-out indicates that this is seen as a Green issue but it is a matter that would allow the Department of Education and Science save much-needed revenue and direct it away from the costs of running a school building. The work being done is very important and when it is rolled out on a permanent basis, as opposed to some pilot projects, it will have far-reaching positive consequences for the country.
I felt I had to make this statement given that the delegation has come here and given its time to show the work being done, although the attendance is not a reflection of this good work. Deputy Ciarán Cuffe has indicated he would like to ask some questions and we will take others after him.
I welcome the visitors before the committee. I am pleased to see so much going on and as an architect and planner I am always glad to see a significant move towards sustainability. I am pleased to see it has the DART approach of design, awareness, research and technology. I assume there are counterparts and similar programmes abroad which the delegation keeps up with and which inform the work it does.
We should not only conform with but go beyond current building regulations. The regulations are changing all the time but our Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has given a very clear signal that we want to dramatically improve the energy performance and use of renewable energy in schools. It seems the schemes are being piloted and incorporated into new programmes, which I am pleased to see. I hope we will see further funding for the retrofitting of improved energy performance in existing schools.
I will touch on a couple of issues. The delegation has focused on water use within the document today and spoken about the danger of children being scalded. I assume that as a matter of course any new school would have very good controls to prevent water wastage and ensure we know exactly how much water is being used. I assume that is part and parcel of the work being done.
The document refers to the use of a generic design, which sets off a warning bell in my mind as every site is different. One must be careful to ensure that buildings reflect the site they are built on. There were experiments going back to the early 20th century with generic school designs but there is a danger that if a generic model is used with particular sites, the special qualities of the site may be lost. The view from the window is very important for children, as is the way they enter a school and this and site qualities should be incorporated in the design. I am a little nervous about using generic designs.
I am also a little nervous about the recent trend of putting significant amounts of parking between the roads or street and the school building. The school buildings should carefully tie into existing settlements where possible. I am nervous of having a sea of car parking between the buildings. We want to encourage children to walk and cycle to school and we should make that as easy as we can.
I am worried about the remarks from the Minister for Education and Science suggesting that we do not need to use design professionals for additions and changes in particular schools. We have to ensure that the building regulations are complied with and that we have the best quality of design, and for this we need proper professional staff.
I welcome the remarks of the witnesses this morning. I am particularly interested in the new technologies for schools. I have been at the Tullamore gaelscoil and had a good tour. It is a wonderful building. As I have installed a horizontal geothermal heating system in my home, I noticed the reference to identifying and maximising the potential of new technology. Among the schools that have made contact with a view to minimising their energy consumption and reducing fossil fuel use, do any give credence to geothermal technology, or are they installing photovoltaic panels? In addition, in urban areas where schools may not have suitable ground for horizontal geothermal systems, have any schools installed vertical geothermal systems, which are equally effective and very good if one is short on space? How many schools have made contact with a view to retrofitting to minimise their costs and their carbon footprints and improve the learning environment for staff and pupils?
We will take questions from other members in a few minutes, but I will throw in my tuppence worth to keep the meeting going smoothly. My main interest is in photovoltaic systems. The Minister's predecessor was a little wary of certain measures in schools because they are not open all year round. However, with the types of batteries we have these days, which are no more taxing to use than the current boilers, it should not be difficult. Schools always need a maintenance person to look at the boiler; why not have someone to maintain the battery or geothermal pump? It is a general type of maintenance that people can do, but specialists must be called in if either of these break down. However, given that photovoltaic systems can store energy, there are major opportunities for schools to cover all their electricity requirements throughout the day for eight months at least. In real terms, it could stretch to ten months shortly, as the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources will introduce legislation that will allow electricity to feed back into the national grid.
In terms of the modular design that is already taking place — I welcome the faster turnaround on school buildings — could the buildings not all be fitted with such devices? There are types of photovoltaic system in which a skin can be spread across the entire roof so that it is generating electricity all the time. There could be a separate system, consisting of solar evacuated tubes, for hot water heating. In this way a large proportion of the energy required by a school would be produced during the day. In terms of building design, east-facing buildings make perfect sense, but if there is a pitched roof space that faces south, electricity is produced from around midday when the pupils are still in school and after they leave in the afternoon, and this can be stored in a battery ready for the next morning. While this might add another 5% to the capital costs of the school build, it would save the school much more over a ten-year period. Is that being considered? I notice that photovoltaic systems are at stage 2, but does Mr. Dolan appreciate the gravity of the situation in terms of the need to ramp up energy production at a local level? Oil is at $40 per barrel now and will rise to $160 as the economic situation improves. The Department and schools receiving departmental funding could save large amounts of money if some thought were put into it now.
Mr. John Dolan
I concur with the Deputy's comments on the building regulations. We have strived for years to stay ahead in this regard. An indicator of this is our air tightness testing standard, which we had nearly five years before it was included in the building regulations. It is currently at twice the standard and we are trying to increase the standard again to 30% greater efficiency. With regard to generic repeat design, the Deputy was correct in that there is no one-size-fits-all solution. That was taken into careful consideration. The design can be mirrored or turned to suit different orientations. The design option has two entrances, one of which, depending on site orientation and suitability, can become the primary entrance. That was definitely taken into consideration. There will be some sites for which a generic repeat design will not be suitable, and it will not be applied in those cases. That was very much in our thoughts at early design stage.
With respect to parking requirements and so on, we are nearly at the stage now, if we have not already passed it, at which there is more hard surface area for car parking than for play areas in schools. The local authorities require us to provide these spaces in the planning process. The publication on the practice for the provision of schools in the planning process in August 2008 will assist in the development of sustainable schools in sustainable neighbourhoods, as well as sustainable travel patterns.
We employ a full design team on all our school projects and we insist they operate as a combined unit from the first day. Sustainability is not, and has not been, an added-on option in our technical guidance documents; it has been embodied in the foundations of the documents and therefore can never be left out if prices go above those expected or similar circumstances. It is something that must be complied with by our design professionals.
I am glad Deputy White got to see the school in Tullamore. We tested several technologies in that school, including geothermal technology. What we found through that school is that there is not compatibility between geothermal systems and passive solar design. By their nature, geothermal systems require an under-floor heating system to absorb night-rate electricity. The heat goes into the floor slab and must come out the next day regardless of conditions. If we also achieve a passive solar design that can reduce early-morning heating requirements by 25%, we are straight away in a situation of 25% overheating in the classrooms. Thus, we have regrettably had to rule out geothermal heating on the basis that it is not compatible with school operation because it does not have a flexible response time. When the solar heating starts in the early morning and 20 children and a teacher are put into a classroom, this leads to overheating. That is the case in the gaelscoil in Tullamore. It is an energy-efficient system, but there is no point in applying such a system if it does not match the initial requirement.
It is not suitable for modern schools then.
Mr. John Dolan
No, but it is suitable for nursing homes, hospitals and places with 24-hour low constant occupancy.
With respect to renewable energy, we have taken a wise approach in that before we start looking at where we can apply it we try to reduce the existing energy consumption. Believe it or not, an eight-classroom primary school now has a smaller hot water cylinder than a domestic house. That is how much we have reduced water consumption through technology and so on. For us to change to a solar-based system we would have to increase the size of the cylinder to a minimum of 300 litres, which is nearly four times the current capacity. Schools would not benefit from solar energy for a substantial amount of the year, including the winter months, and during those times we would have to heat 300 litres of water using fossil fuel. In contrast, an eight-classroom school currently heats about 80 litres, and this is not stored in the boiler; it just gets a quick blast and then goes back. For a national school, it would be less energy efficient to apply solar hot water heating. However, there are opportunities in special needs schools and post primary schools, where there are bulk water requirements due to showering and so on, and these are being developed.
Photovoltaic technology has improved rapidly in recent years and, I hope, will continue to improve in the future. We hope to have two systems on site this year to deal with this. Battery technology is an issue but we look to overcome that and apply the most appropriate method.
There is also the grid.
Mr. John Dolan
That opportunity is there, one part of which is being able to feed into the grid, the other is being able to get a good return from it.
If the witnesses were to do that they might find some positive moves in that direction. It would be across departmental accounting but I believe it would happen.
I welcome Mr. Dolan and Deputy Ciarán Cuffe to the committee. As politicians, we spend a great deal of time complaining about the Department. I come from between Boyle and Elphin and my constituency extends to Ballinamore. We have had a long and protracted battle trying to get a school in Ballinamore.
I commend the witnesses for this very positive announcement. They are ahead of the game and the answers they have given today are very proactive. It is nice to see that a Department is ahead when one is talking about sustainable energy. It is good to see it has been using the DART approach in different schools for the past 12 years. We are not here today to reinvent the wheel but to come up with suggestions. So far the witnesses have replied to our suggestions and it is clear they have done a great deal of research and have considered these matters. Schools are the frontline of sustainable energy. Young children with their green flag awards could teach us a great deal.
I have some questions about heating and about storage heaters, in particular, because I bought a house that came with these heaters. Everybody warned me against them but I find them most affordable. I considered getting solar heating in my house, and probably will get it, but I have given thought also to getting a windmill. The person to whom I spoke told me that nobody can generate electricity as cheaply as the ESB. Given that, I refer again to the energy zone project in Dundalk mentioned by the witnesses. How does that compare? Sometimes we want change for the sake of change. How does the cost of that compare with the national grid or with getting electricity from the ESB in the form of storage heaters?
I am very aware of the carbon footprint and we have discussed that here. Buildings are to be designed to face south, should be energy efficient and should perhaps have solar heating, energy auditing and benchmarking.
There is an issue in rural areas and I believe it applies also in the Chairman's constituency in Lucan. It is an excellent idea to have people walking to school. Pathways and cycleways are required for that and the school cycle project is very welcome. In a rural area such as mine, in Roscommon and south Leitrim, many young children cannot walk or cycle to school because they live too far away, within a ten-mile radius, and use school transport. I would like to hear the views of the witnesses about school transport costs which have gone up by 213% in the past year and are likely to go up even further. Does this not undermine their goal of achieving a lesser carbon footprint in schools? People may now use cars or may not avail of school transport. Is school transport carbon friendly? Perhaps we might discuss various aspects of that.
The witnesses have done a great job. I already knew that because I have seen many of the schools. It is very satisfactory to go inside school buildings and see their designs. Perhaps we can improve on that.
I remind the witnesses they are precluded from commenting on Government policy in so far as it relates to school transport. However, there are some valid questions concerning the reasons that costs have rocketed and these are separate from policy issues. If the witnesses are able to give their opinion on this that would be helpful. If not that is understood. Before going to those questions, I call upon Senator Healy Eames.
I thank Mr. O'Leary and Mr. Dolan for coming. I apologise for missing the first part of their presentation.
The really positive aspect of sustainable school buildings is that the school is also being used as a life learning tool. There is no better way for children to learn about sustainable development than by living and working in a place that upholds a sustainable ethos.
The witnesses presented facts on geothermal and other alternative energy sources, such as photovoltaic, solar panels and passive energy. The Minister for Education and Science has committed funds to the school building programme this year and appears to be committed to school buildings, perhaps to the detriment of other areas. I am not happy about this and I refer to such matters as the pupil teacher ratio and children with learning disabilities. Let us stick with the school buildings for the present. At all times we must balance cost and best energy practice. What do the witnesses now recommend to the Minister in terms of keeping those two in mind? How will we recoup that cost over time? Do they factor in the cost of electricity and other currently high energy costs involved in the running of a school?
I imagine this issue is not really their concern but is, rather, one that goes back to boards of management. The cost of energy eats up the capitation fund to which the Minister also appears to be very committed.
Mr. John Dolan
In our design school approach the potential cost to school boards of management is very high on our agenda. We are always mindful that any system we leave them to operate should be as cost efficient as possible because they will have to pay for the running of the school through the Department's grants. The current best practice is based on the programme in our technical guidance document which can achieve an A3 rated school. That is the top band. The only way to get above A3 is to have renewable energy on site which is really getting into power generation. Any school built in accordance with our technical guidance document is capable of being twice as energy efficient as best international practice. That applies since 2004, and not merely in the last year or two. As we developed these programmes we have made recommendations which have been added in and taken on board.
Have schools been put in place which have A3 ratings?
Mr. John Dolan
All schools built since 2004 built in accordance with our technical guidance document should be capable of achieving an A3 rating. We did a test on one which was built in 2006 and that got an A3 rating.
How energy efficient is that in terms of the cost to the school? What are its bills like for electricity or water?
Mr. John Dolan
They would, effectively, be half what best international practice would be.
Would that be equal to half the costs of the traditional Irish school?
Mr. John Dolan
The traditional Irish school was built at a time when——
There was little awareness.
Mr. John Dolan
There were no building regulations in some instances until 1991 and schools would have been built at a time when fuel was quite plentiful. Technology was not as advanced as it is today. If one takes a school that was built in the 1980s, for example, and another that was built recently, the new one would be almost five times more energy efficient than the earlier one.
Is it possible for this committee to produce some document for schools showing how energy efficient a school can be? The Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan, is bringing in retrofit. Will that work in Irish schools? Might that be something the witnesses would consider? Boards of management are struggling with costs. Is it not the case that the average Irish school is €22,500 in debt? A large amount of that is due to running costs. What are we doing to help those schools improve their situation? The focus is on trying to get the best match to go back and upgrade the performance within schools. I mentioned the gaelscoil with the heat pump application in Tullamore. It is very important the correct application is put into it because it will be repeated across the whole country, so one must make sure it will be correct and the board of management is not left with a headache in the running of it in times to come.
What about storage heaters?
Mr. John Dolan
Storage heaters are quite affordable. I sat in front of one for years in school. They are fine on a cold day and are no different from under floor heating in a school environment. The major problem is that one cannot control them. What is put in at night must come out the next morning. Also, they do not operate on the greenest electricity in the country because they are linked to power stations and cannot necessarily be switched off at night. The electricity used is more brown than green.
The delegation said it would welcome any movement on selling back or feeding power back into the grid. If the next generation of schools with photovoltaic array cover their electricity costs, have battery storage to cover meetings at night and some school activities in the morning, and at the height of summer power could go into the grid, would that give such schools an A1 rating?
Mr. John Dolan
It would push them towards an A1 rating. It would certainly push them into A2, heading towards A1. One would probably need to have more passive design to get into the A1 rating.
Has the cost been worked out? It costs €20,000 for domestic insulation to cover 40% of electricity. Would it be in the region of €100,000 per school to install photovoltaic cells?
Mr. John Dolan
It would be heading towards that. It is very expensive.
What is the current cost to the school to build?
Mr. John Dolan
It depends on the size of the school. It could be a couple of million euro.
Photovoltaic power as a proportion of that would be a very small amount.
Mr. John Dolan
It would be.
If the electricity will be paid for eventually from the grid, it is a win-win situation
Mr. John Dolan
The balance we are looking at is that if one had an investment of €100,000 to put into a school, where is the best return? Is it in photovoltaic power to produce renewable electricity or in reducing demand for electricity in the first place?
Surely one could do both.
Mr. John Dolan
One can do both, but one goes for the best return.
If there is a proper A3 insulated building and one puts a photovoltaic cell on the roof, which is already insulated, and there is a back up battery it will pay for itself in ten years for that school. After that, one is actually feeding into the grid. Presumably the investment would make sense.
Mr. John Dolan
The opportunity is in feeding into the grid. That is what will swing it, as well as the costs.
Perhaps the delegation could come to Tullamore and perhaps advise schools on how to construct their buildings. They obviously need a great deal of help there.
There is much more expertise in the Department. The Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources is to the forefront in this, as is the Department of Education and Science. We will see the grid sorted out very shortly. I know that from discussion with the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan. The delegation obviously welcomes the fact that it would fit the jigsaw in terms of what it is doing.
Mr. John Dolan
It would help us to complete the evaluation and ascertain what the facts would be.
Is there a commitment that we would be able to sell back to the grid?
I would be more certain of that——
Than of the recapitalisation of the banks?
——than of the prospects of this Government lasting its term. I am fairly confident of that as well. Are there any further questions?
That is very interesting.
It is very interesting.
Regarding Mr. Dolan's views on transport, does he have any ideas on how to improve the carbon footprint of school buses or overall school transport?
Electric school buses, for example.
Mr. John Dolan
Electric school buses are a possibility. I am not an expert on school transport or transport in particular. There are several projects nationally that are looking at how to make transport energy more renewable through the use of bio-fuel, electric options and so on. What the Deputy is really touching on is the sustainable neighbourhood approach again which is about getting a balance between the distance to schools, the number of schools in an area and how wide a circle the bus must travel.
I thank the delegation for coming before the committee today and for giving such a comprehensive outline of the work being done by the Department. We have found it very useful and I hope other members will look at the transcripts and learn something from the contributions. I thank the delegation for its time.
The joint committee went into private session at 11.55 a.m. and resumed in public session at noon.
There is a matter of importance which should be read in public session before this committee. It is a statement from Barnardos which was sent to us from Ms Lucinda McNally, communications assistant regarding cut-backs in special needs classes. I propose that the committee agree that I send a letter to the Minister for Education and Science endorsing fully the views expressed in the e-mail from Barnardos and asking the Minister to respond to the serious issues raised in respect of special needs education. Is that agreed?
Yes, absolutely. I agree completely with Barnardos and I said in the Seanad yesterday that dismantling the special education service in this way is a double blow for children in disadvantaged areas. They are disadvantaged and have mild learning difficulties. Many of them will not cope in the regular classroom unless the Minister commits to upskilling the teachers in the mainstream classes, to which he plans to move the children with mild learning difficulties, to cope with and understand these difficulties, and applying appropriate ratios and weightings in those classrooms. The needs of a child with a mild learning difficulty are approximately equivalent to those of four regular children in a mainstream classroom. Unless the Minister applies such a weighting, he is not being fair to the regular children, the child with mild learning difficulties or the teacher. This is a question of appropriate education.
I am disappointed in the Minister. Last night in a public setting he threatened me by saying he would go public if I continued to "stigmatise" children with special needs. I am not interested in stigmatising children with special needs. I do not want to see them put into the mainstream system unless they receive the appropriate attention for their own sake and that of the other children in the class and the teacher who must cope.
I welcome this e-mail from Barnardos because the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act is not being implemented. Until it is implemented we cannot be sure that the children's needs will be met because there is no statutory force.
I thank the Senator for her comments. The Minister's statement, which came out of the blue, raises serious concerns. The last sentence of the Barnardos statement says that the cuts reported today indicate that our most vulnerable children are not being given priority protection against the worst effects of the recession. That is simply unacceptable, I agree. This message should go to the Minister to see what steps he should and will take in this matter.
Is it agreed that a letter be issued, through the Chairman, to the Minister for Education and Science from the committee, endorsing fully the view expressed in the e-mail from Barnardos, asking the Minister to respond immediately to the serious issues raised by this correspondence?
That is agreed. I compliment the Chairman on moving this issue so efficiently. Will the secretariat seek a response from the Minister for our next meeting on this issue in two weeks' time because it is urgent? We need a decision because these children will be moved by 1 September and they are not well able to cope with transition.