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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE debate -
Thursday, 26 Mar 2009

Knowledge Society and ICT Teaching Standards: Discussion with Department of Education and Science.

I welcome the officials from the Department of Education and Science who will give a presentation on the role of schools in the development of a knowledge society and the standards of information communications technology, ICT, teaching in schools. We are joined by the followoing: Mr. Harold Hislop, deputy chief inspector; Mr. Éamonn Murtagh, assistant chief inspector; Mr. Pádraig Kirk, senior inspector; Ms Mary McGarry, outgoing principal officer, ICT policy unit; Ms Mary Kirk, incoming principal officer, ICT policy unit; and Mr. Jerome Morrissey, director, national centre for technology in education.

I draw to the officials' attention the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but witnesses appearing before the committee do not. I remind members that they should not criticise, comment on or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Ms McGarry to begin the presentation.

Ms Mary McGarry

Our presentation this morning focuses on the role of schools in developing students' digital competence to equip them for their participation in the knowledge society. Digital competence is a key competence in the knowledge society. ICT skills are increasingly critical for full participation in our social, recreational and working lives. Furthermore, ICT is recognised as a key tool for the improvement of teaching and learning. Where ICT is used innovatively and integrated into the curriculum, it enables teachers to bring lessons to life in new ways and to motivate learners.

The Department's ICT in schools policy seeks to promote the integration of ICT in teaching and learning and the acquisition of ICT skills by students to enable them to participate in the knowledge society. Apart from the economic rationale for investing in ICT in education in terms of the acquisition of the necessary labour market skills and the pedagogical rationale in terms of enlivening teaching and learning, there is also the social rationale for investing in this area in schools in terms of tackling the digital divide that exists in society generally. The OECD has noted that the growing convergence between these rationales collectively makes a compelling case for education to take full advantage of the benefits of ICT.

I will give a brief outline of the ICT in schools programme. Since its commencement in 1998, a sum of €209 million has been invested in the programme, comprising €121 million on the capital side and €88 million on the current side. The initial capital investment concentrated on providing equipment grants for schools, and €80 million was provided to schools under the first two three-year initiatives under the programme. The first initiative was Schools IT2000, which ran from 1998 to 2000. It was followed by the Blueprint for the Future of ICT in Education Initiative 2001-2003. The effect of this investment in ICT infrastructure is evident in the series of census exercises undertaken by the National Centre for Technology in Education, NCTE.

The overall number of computers in schools has increased from 36,000 in 1998 to almost 98,000 in 2005. This translates to improvements in the ratio of pupils to computers. At primary level it has been reduced from 16.3 to 9.1 pupils to a computer and at post-primary level it is reduced from 10.9 to 7.0. Despite this progress, the results indicate that while the overall computer numbers have increased across the sectors, the age profile of the stock has also increased, with 53% of computers in primary schools and 43% of computers in post-primary schools being over four years old in 2005. Since the census was undertaken, schools have continued to purchase computers; for example, a significant portion of the almost €17 million grant aid provided to schools for the introduction of the new technology subjects at leaving certificate level has been spent on ICT equipment. It is understood that approximately 10,000 computers have been acquired in that context, with schools complementing the State investment with their own resources in purchasing those computers.

With regard to networking, the need to develop schools' internal networking capabilities has been recognised, both to exploit the broadband connectivity for schools and to allow shared access to software resources. Since 2004, approximately €23.5 million has issued to schools for this purpose. The 2005 census which I mentioned previously found that 45% of computers in primary schools and 80% of computers in post-primary schools were networked, with a large proportion of schools indicating that they were in the process of networking their schools in advance of the provision of broadband connectivity. On the school building side, all new school building projects must comply with the Department's ICT infrastructure guidelines, which include the provision of networks throughout schools since 2004.

The next priority for the programme is the provision of broadband connectivity to schools. The broadband programme has been undertaken in partnership with industry. An agreement with IBEC's telecommunications and Internet federation provided for a three-year €18 million joint fund, with industry contributing €5 million per annum and the Government contributing €1 million per annum to meet the costs of schools' local connectivity. That local connectivity represents one element of the programme. The other two elements are a national broadband network and a national service desk. Schools connectivity is routed to the Internet through the national broadband network, which has been developed by HEAnet. The latter provides centrally managed services for schools such as security, anti-spam and content filtering. The national helpdesk, which is managed by the NCTE, provides an interface between the network service providers and schools. The overall investment in this programme, from its initial set-up to the end of 2008, was some €34 million.

The roll-out of broadband connectivity commenced in June 2005. More than 99% of the 3,936 schools encompassed by the programme have had their local connectivity and router capability installed and tested. Of the 3,905 local connectivity installations, 27% have fixed-line services, 26% have wireless services and 47% have satellite services.

The statistics provided by HEAnet show the steady growth in aggregate bandwidth usage over the network since its inception in 2005. In addition to the capital funding provided by the ICT in schools programmes, funding for ICT equipment is also provided through the Department's school building programme.

While new post-primary schools have received ICT equipment grants for some time, similar arrangements were only introduced for primary schools late last year. In 2008, equipment grants of €2.3 million were provided to new post-primary school building projects, while €2.2 million was provided to 72 primary schools where a newly constructed school or a large-scale extension reached practical completion.

Members of the committee can see that on the building programme in 2008, €4.5 million was invested in ICT equipment grants, which are designed to enable schools to equip their classrooms with the appropriate technology to integrate ICT into teaching and learning. Outside of that, the scheme for minor works to national school properties also includes ICT equipment within the range of approved school expenditure.

Turning to the area of specific curricular developments, I already mentioned the new technology syllabus and the revised design and communication graphics, which are known as T4 subjects. They were rolled out with effect from September 2007. Grants of €17 million were issued to 500 post-primary schools to upgrade their facilities in this context.

Disadvantaged schools have also benefited from a €3.4 million ICT grant scheme for DEIS schools, funded by the dormant accounts fund in 2007. A further €1 million fund is currently being supported by the dormant accounts fund to assist up to 100 DEIS schools to achieve digital school status.

Schools also invest in ICT. The 2005 census reported that many schools spent more on ICT than they received in departmental grants. The inspectorate's valuation, which was published in 2008, confirmed this.

Of the €88 million provided under the programme to date, some €10 million has been invested in the schools broadband programme, to which I referred earlier. The remaining €78 million is being channelled through the National Centre for Technology in Education, which was specifically implemented in 1998 to implement the programme.

A major priority for the NCTE has been its teaching skills initiative. As noted by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, the teachers, own familiarity with ICT and competence levels in its use constitute a key determinant of the effective use of ICT in the classroom. The NCTE offers a range of professional development courses which are in the main provided through the regional education centres. With some 11,800 course places provided in 2008, the total since the programme commenced now stands at more than 155,000 places. Not surprisingly, the inspectorate's evaluation found that many teachers had attended courses organised by NCTE. In addition, it found that 30% of primary schools and 57% of post-primary schools had provided at least one in-school or external ICT based training course for their staff within the previous three years. It also found that a relatively small proportion of teachers held qualifications in ICT, and that the majority did not consider themselves proficient in a wide range of ICT skills and applications. Encouragingly, younger or more recently qualified teachers had a higher perception of their ICT skills than more experienced or older teachers.

The NCTE operates Scoilnet, which is the national portal for ICT in education. It provides a central resource to teachers, pupils and parents. The number of resources on Scoilnet has increased from 242 physical files in 1999 to a current repository of more than 11,428 reviewed teaching resources. The number of visitors to Scoilnet continues to increase, having hit 1 million visitors in 2006 and 1.75 million visits in 2008.

The NCTE provides website development assistance to subject associations, education centres, schools and various other projects. It pursues collaborative strategies to develop appropriate digital content to match the Irish curriculum. An example of this is the Scoilnet maps initiative for geography teachers at second level, which uses ordnance survey maps. Scoilnet maps is a web-based application which allows students to upload and share complementary geographical resources, such as photographs, videos and worksheets.

The national survey of teachers undertaken as part of the inspectorate's evaluation of ICT in schools found that while 77% of primary teachers and 67% of post-primary teachers had accessed Scoilnet in the previous two years, teachers were generally infrequent users of the Scoilnet resource. It found, however, that Scoilnet achieved high ratings from those who visited it, with 82% of primary and 67% of post-primary teachers rating the quality of the site's content as good or very good.

The NCTE is also actively involved in Internet safety through its Webwise and Watch Your Space initiatives. Since 1998, the NCTE has supported more than 130 school-based projects involving more than 900 schools and supporting bodies.

The committee will be aware that the NCTE advises the Minister on the role of ICT in the primary and post-primary curricula. At primary level, the council has advised that the most effective approach is to integrate ICT into the teaching and learning process, providing children with opportunities to use modern technology to enhance their learning in all subjects.

Having published its guidelines for primary teachers in 2004, the NCCA subsequently advised at post-primary level that the development of students' competence in ICT should be pursued by the inclusion of ICT in revised syllabi and teacher guidelines, and through the development of its ICT framework.

In conjunction with the educational partners, the ICT framework, entitled A Structured Approach to ICT and Curriculum Assessment, has been developed by the NCCA to offer schools a structured approach to using ICT in schools. It is an enabling framework that aims to develop school students' ICT literacy by promoting uses of ICT that enrich teaching and learning across the primary and junior cycle curriculum.

When reviewing syllabi and subject guidelines, the NCCA undertakes an ICT proofing exercise to establish the role of ICT as a teaching and learning tool — for example, the dynamic geometry packages in maths — or as an integral part of the curriculum GIS in geography, or as an integral part in the assessment process. The design and communications graphics syllabus at leaving certificate level, which will be examined for the first time this summer, involves the use of CAD in the assessment.

The provision of relevant digital content is equally critical. As noted in the European schoolnet report, a major barrier to the use of ICT is the lack of access to appropriate digital content. In this regard, I have outlined what the NCTE is doing regarding Scoilnet and its provision of digital content.

Turning to the impact of ICT on teaching and learning, the Department inspectorate's evaluation was published last July. As regards primary schools, it found that classroom planning of 43% of mainstream primary teachers indicated how they intended to use ICT in their teaching. The main planning emphasis was on curricular areas, the development of discrete ICT skills and the use of ICT to provide for students with special needs. Some 69% of teachers reported using the Internet as a resource in planning and preparation for teaching.

Evidence of ICT being used to support teaching and learning was reported in the case of 59% of observed primary lessons. However, inspectors distinguished between finding evidence of the use of ICT to support teaching and learning, and actual observation of the use of ICT during observed lessons. Inspectors observed ICT actually being used in classrooms in 22% of cases, with evidence of higher levels of ICT usage in senior classes compared with junior classes. Some 86% of primary teachers reported that they used software to facilitate teaching and learning in their classroom, while 24% said they made use of the Internet in classroom practice. The reasons advanced for not making use of the Internet in classroom practice was lack of Internet access, lack of time, lack of knowledge, lack of computers and lack of suitability for children of this age. Teachers of senior classes were more likely to use the Internet in classroom practice than teachers of junior classes.

Inspectors reported on the quality of the use of ICT in teaching and learning in classrooms visited during the inspection period. Some 34% of their reports on primary classroom observations indicated no usage or limited or inappropriate use of ICT in teaching and learning. In 42% of cases, inspectors reported that there was scope for development while in 24% of cases, inspectors indicated a competent or optimal level of performance. The proportion of competent or optimal levels of performance was higher for senior classes than for junior classes.

ICT was used mostly by pupils on an individual basis in primary schools with much of this individual activity organised on a rotational basis. ICT use at primary level predominated in core curricular areas such as English, mathematics and SESE. It is most frequently used to develop primary pupils’ numeracy, reading and writing skills.

At post-primary level, the evaluation found evidence of ICT being used in the planning and preparation associated with 41% of the 311 lessons observed. Its use for this purpose was highest in history, geography, music, business studies and art, craft and design.

The post-primary teacher survey suggested a higher degree of computer use in teaching and learning than that observed by inspectors. Some 55% of teachers reported using computers in their teaching at some time, while 18% of lessons observed during subject inspections incorporated the use of ICT. Two ICT-based activities in particular dominated. The first was where a teacher used a computer and data projector to give a presentation and the second involved the teacher searching the Internet.

The survey of post-primary teachers indicated that 50% used software applications and 34% made use of the Internet in their classrooms. Inspectors reported on the quality of use of ICT in teaching and learning during the lessons observed. Some 54% of reports indicated no, limited or inappropriate use of ICT in teaching and learning. In 35% of cases, inspectors quoted areas for development while in 11% of cases, inspectors indicated a competent or optimal level of performance.

High levels of integration of ICT were found in the science and applied science subjects, in mathematics and in the subjects in the social studies I group, which incorporates history, geography, art, craft and design and music. A number of subjects were identified where regular use was made of ICT such as guidance and foreign language subjects. Equally, subjects were identified where ICT was rarely used, the most notable being Irish.

The transition year, leaving certificate vocational programme and leaving certificate applied programme were found to greatly encourage the integration of ICT in teaching and learning.

The main use for ICT in lessons, where it was being used, was to help students develop their research and investigation skills. It was also reported to be used frequently to develop students' writing and presentation skills.

The most popular teaching context in which ICT is used at post-primary level is whole-class teaching in a dedicated computer room. The next most frequent teaching context involves group activity in a dedicated computer room followed by whole-class teaching in a general or specialist classroom. It was found that the ratio of pupils to computers in a school had a negligible effect on the usage of ICT in many of these contexts.

We had indicated that a maximum of ten minutes would be permitted for an introduction. We are now close to 17 or 18 minutes. There is much detailed information in the introduction but some members have Order of Business duties in the Seanad and the Dáil. Ms McGarry and her colleagues will be able to give more detail in due course.

I thank Ms McGarry for her presentation which provided much information. I concur with much of what Ms McGarry said in that ICT is a critical tool in teaching and learning. Students like it and it is highly motivating for them. In any of the teacher research projects I have supervised, teachers were particularly excited about the interactive and non-judgmental nature of computers. It presents a really useful tool for pupils to advance their own learning.

However, I contend that while the Department is working away at policy level, it is way behind in terms of a real commitment to funding. The first thing it did last August was pull €252 million from the national development plan for ICT in classrooms.

Last November, as a member of this committee, I went to the UK to visit disadvantaged schools. I found that in disadvantaged areas in the UK, there is one computer per 1.5 pupils. I observe that here there is one computer per 20 pupils. I saw somewhere in the presentation that it states one computer per nine pupils. We are way behind.

How does the Department expect Irish pupils to compete into the future? Ms McGarry is right, this is futuristic. This is about investment in knowledge competence and the knowledge society. How can we compete if it is not matched with computers for pupils?

Ms McGarry observed that most of the usage is individual or paired. Why is that? Is it because of the lack of computers? What is needed for the 75% of teachers who do not have an optimal level of performance? Ms McGarry observed that 24% of teachers are at an optimal level performance in terms of computer usage.

How can schools get networked where broadband does not exit? We still have the great digital divide in this country between rural and urban areas. Has the Department checked teacher training background or any other education teachers may have in terms of the use of computers in the classroom? For example, has the Department checked teachers coming out of Hibernia where more than 50% of teacher training is on computers? Is there greater usage of computers by those teachers in the classroom?

Why does Ireland lag behind the OECD average in using computers in schools?

There is plenty of meat in those questions. I would sooner hear the answers to them.

Ms Mary McGarry

I will start with the issue of investment and how we expect pupils to compete internationally. The need for further investment in the ICT in schools programme is generally acknowledged. There is the €252 million in the NDP. The report of the strategy group formed to advise on the priorities for investment in the area was published last July. The Government reiterated its commitment to investing in this area most recently in the framework for economic renewal.

We generally recognise there is a need for further investment and that we need to move forward on a range of areas. It is not only about the provision of computers; it is also about teacher professional development, the role in the curriculum, the availability of digital content, the broadband connectivity and the networking facilities throughout the schools. A multifaceted approach is advocated in the report. There is a need for finance to go with that.

Unfortunately last year, having regard to the pressures in the budget for the Department elsewhere, €24 million was taken out of the programme to meet needs under the pay and pensions subheads elsewhere in the Department. The Government has reiterated its commitment to investing in this area with——

I am getting a little angry. The Department is working away but there is no roll-out of that commitment. I see a great divide between policy and practice. I am getting completely frustrated. A national school close to me in Galway came to me looking for six computers. I made a representation to the Department of Education and Science and went to the NCTE to see if it could help but the answer was "No". The minor school works grant goes on fixing a roof or a leak. There is no commitment.

Ms McGarry said we have the NDP and the €252 million. Where is it? I do not believe we have it.

Ms Mary McGarry

I have said there is a need for further investment. All of us on this side of the table recognise that there is such a need. Equally, developments are being pursued. Over 99% of schools are connected to the broadband network. The Department is currently evaluating the tenders in response to the next round of broadband connectivity and we hope, with the developments in broadband connectivity nationally, to get a better service for schools from this tender in which we are engaged. We are also actively pursuing with colleagues in the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources the Government objective of equipping post-primary schools with high-speed Internet connectivity.

We are working with industry on an industry advisory group to look at the challenges to implement the strategy group report having regard to the financial budget available to the Department. It is expected that advisory group will report by May to the Minister.

Apart from that, the NCTE is working to pursue the key critical areas identified in that report that make the difference because there are a range of experiences in schools as to how integrated ICT is within their activities. The key role for the principal and the ICT co-ordinator is well recognised. The NCTE is rolling out a series of seminars for ICT co-ordinators and has developed an e-learning pack to facilitate schools to actively engage in their plans to integrate ICT in teaching and learning. Seminars were held, initially for post-primary schools, before the end of last year.

The Department is also developing the area of digital content with the availability of educational reference material, which will be available to schools shortly following the conclusion of a framework agreement for the provision of such digital content.

The NCTE is also working with the support services. We need to get to the stage where ICT is integrated in all activities that the Department undertakes and that ICT is not seen as a separate agenda that will be tackled by a given individual.

That is why the resource people from the NCTE were so important to the classrooms. What is the status of those resource people? Have they been pulled?

Ms Mary McGarry

Is that the ICT advisers?

Yes. Have they been pulled?

Ms Mary McGarry

Yes.

They are the key to integrating ICT across the classroom and across learning, instead of seeing computers as an add-on. Until they are restored, teachers are working without support and without competence.

Senator Healy Eames raised her question. There are many more questions. Is Ms McGarry finished for the time being?

Ms Mary McGarry

I am unless you want me to address the area of ICT advisers.

Briefly.

Ms Mary McGarry

There were 21 full-time ICT advisers attached to the full-time regional education centres, most of whom were seconded teachers. Following the value for money report that the Department undertook on the ICT support service, it was felt that it was not the best way to approach matters. On the inspectorate report, one of my colleagues will probably have the figure as to the percentage of teachers who were aware of the ICT service. It was extremely low. I think it was 22% of teachers.

It was considered that it would be much more effective to concentrate on the integration of ICT in all the support service activity and not see it as a separate add-on that was perhaps optional for some schools. Twenty-one ICT advisers would not cover 4,000 schools.

I got great feedback from schools where they were working with their local education centre and with the ICT adviser. I have full knowledge of schools that are very disappointed that that person has been pulled. They had children doing wonderful digital projects in the community. That support is not there now. I thank Ms McGarry.

I thank the delegates for their presentation. They are very welcome. I would not profess to be very knowledgeable, proficient or literate in the area of ICT and I ask them to excuse the naivety in some of my questions.

There are approximately 800 post-primary schools. How many of those have dedicated computer rooms? We have been told by some of the delegation's colleagues in other sections of the Department that 75% of the primary school population is being educated in 25% of the primary school stock, which is approximately 3,200 schools where the critical mass is. Yesterday in a presentation we were told that 75% of the primary schools cater for 25% of the population, which is approximately 500,000. Some of those schools are in rural areas and many of them have very small numbers of pupils, ranging from 12 to approximately 75. That massive imbalance in the infrastructure must be reflected in terms of access and the supply of ICT facilities. I ask the delegation to comment on that.

There is a proposal in some post-primary schools, from transition year upwards, to move to a laptop as distinct from a copybook experience for teaching and for communication. How widespread is this and what is the delegation's evaluation of it? The working experience for most young people attending third level college is that they are plugged into an electronic communications system and the notebook and the laptop have replaced the copybook. In the post-primary schools to which I refer this is a suggested way of facilitating the transfer of a skill set when they go to third level — our target is to increase that figure from 59% to 70%. If they cannot handle that information conduit, the educational value and discourse that comes with it will be impaired, a little like someone who cannot write. I wonder what the delegation's comments might be in response to those questions.

I address this to their colleagues in the inspectorate. The committee received an interesting presentation yesterday from the planning and building unit in Tullamore which has been able, since February 2008, to start mapping much data on schools. Could the delegation transfer its data on schools to its colleagues in Tullamore and could we have a national map of the location and range ICT connectivity and the internal hardware that might exist as distinct from the training?

I note that 47% of the schools have satellite access. The delegation is not responsible for the mess in broadband and, clearly, it cannot accelerate the national roll-out programme. The quality of broadband in isolated areas, certainly in the west, in my experience, is pitifully slow, to the point that one would be faster with pigeons in some cases. Evidently, the delegation cannot control that. Until such time as the infrastructure improves, what the delegation can deliver within it is limited. With those range of questions I am trying to get a picture in my mind, maybe influenced by my professional background as an architect and planner, of what is the spread because the Department could overlay that with economic areas of advantage and disadvantage and then see what corrective measures we might need or want to take.

Mr. Harold Hislop

I will take the question of the dedicated computer rooms. In the survey we conducted as part of the inspectorate evaluation there were 20 post-primary schools examined in detail, all of which had at least one computer room. In general, we found the use of computer rooms was far more prevalent at post-primary level than at primary level. In the primary context, some large primary schools did have computer rooms.

There are approximately 800 post-primary schools.

Mr. Harold Hislop

That is correct.

A detailed analysis was done of 20. What was the sample selection methodology for the 20?

Mr. Harold Hislop

We selected a sample of the schools in which we would have intended to conduct inspections in any case in the year when this survey was being done. In particular, it was qualitative data that we were looking for.

Will Mr. Hislop extrapolate what that qualitative data might be in quantitative terms?

Mr. Harold Hislop

In terms of the system as a whole, we did not do that for this study.

Would it be fair to infer that we do not know how many post-primary schools have dedicated computer rooms?

Mr. Harold Hislop

I do not have the answer to that. There is a point to be understood about the use of the computer room and to compare that with the placement of computers within mainstream classrooms. At primary level, the study showed that there is better and greater use and a better level of integration of ICT into teaching and learning when hardware is placed in individual classrooms rather than in computer rooms. The quality of the engagement in teaching and learning was considerably better. There were a number of issues in some post-primary schools regarding timetables and use of computer rooms. A substantial number of computer rooms were not used for the full amount of time available.

Let us consider the classic example of a pupil attending school and learning to read in order that he or she might read to learn. Is it naive to be of the view that attending a dedicated computer class is basically learning to use computers in order that one might subsequently use them to learn? I am of the view that unless a group of 24 young people learns to use computers in the same dedicated classroom to reach a certain level of keyboard skills, etc., the benefits that will accrue from bringing computers into mainstream classrooms, which would be extremely advisable and some schools are considering allowing pupils to have laptops on their desks, will not be fully realised.

Mr. Pádraig Kirk

Our evaluations show that computer rooms were used for the teaching of core skills such as those relating to word processing, PowerPoint presentation etc. However, these were not necessarily the skills that were being taught in classrooms, where computers were more embedded in the teaching and learning process. There was a wider range of skills taught in circumstances where computers were used in classrooms. Computers in computer rooms were used to teach a distinct set of core skills, whereas the range of skills learned in mainstream classrooms was wider.

I understand why it is necessary to teach pupils how to use computers so that they might increase their potential for learning. Dedicated computer rooms can be used to develop the dedicated skill set to which Mr. Kirk just referred. This runs parallel and is complementary to teachers in mainstream classrooms using white boards and computers — for example, to access the RTE archive on the Internet — to teach geography, history or whatever. The Internet is a wonderfully dynamic, interactive tool. However, somebody who is completely computer illiterate can sit at a desk and learn from a presentation delivered by means of a white board.

I am interested in considering both aspects at the same time. I am in favour of empowering teachers to communicate by means of computers and white boards, on one hand, while empowering pupils to become ICT literate, on the other. Am I correct in perceiving that these are two quite different aspects?

Mr. Jerome Morrissey

International best practice focuses on integrating both activities. We do not have room on the curriculum for a dedicated skills-based course. Many young people have acquired skills in the use of computers. I am not stating that they do not require additional skills. We are trying to ensure, for example, that there is adequate ICT provision in schools in disadvantaged areas. The NCCA's ICT framework incorporates those two activities.

In my estimation, the best place for a computer is in the classroom because this allows for integration and it is not necessary for students to wander through corridors to get to computer rooms, particularly when the time available for lessons is limited. It is better if students can access computers within their own classrooms because they can acquire the concomitant skill of using technology at that stage. I am not stating that this is entirely sufficient, but it is sufficient from a teaching and learning point of view. The vast majority of schools offer ECDL-type programmes to transition year students to allow them to develop much more enhanced skills. The best way to acquire ICT skills is to use computers, in the pedagogical sense, in classrooms where children are being taught.

I welcome the officials. When I started teaching, which was not that long ago, there were no computers in classrooms. We have, therefore, taken huge strides in a relatively short period. In certain primary schools, computers in classrooms were never used and gathered dust. We have come a long way. I accept Mr. Morrissey's assertion about the importance of having computers in classrooms. However, if students do not acquire the necessary skills, they cannot use the computers in their classrooms. In recent years, the use of dedicated computer rooms has increased. ICT is now a vital component of the leaving certificate music course and students are obliged to learn computer skills to fulfil this aspect of their course.

I was startled by the statistic which indicates that 48% of 15 year olds reported using computers at home. We live in an era where if a person does not have a page on Facebook or Bebo or does not understand what these are, he or she will be perceived as having something wrong with him or her. In my house, there is a scramble among my children to be next to use the computer. The figure of 48% relates to 2006 and I hope that in the past two years or so it has increased. Young people could teach me a thing or two about computers because they know far more than I do about them. They learn to use computers at school. They find it easy to use them because they are taught to do so at a young age. If one is teaching someone a methodology and he or she does not have the facility to use it, one might as well not bother doing so.

Far be it for me to lecture anyone, but principals are responsible for the internal management and organisation of schools in the context of the subjects on offer. If computer skills and knowledge of ICT is considered important within a school, provision will be made. However, schools require supports in this regard. On how many occasions would computers that have been in place in a computer room in a school since 2000 been upgraded if they were owned by a business or some other institution or facility? Schools need support to upgrade the technology at their disposal.

Reference was made to the use of copy books versus that of computers or computer notebooks. I do not want to go back to the old days, but there must be a combination of both. It would be very sad if people no longer wrote but instead merely typed everything into computers. I consider writing to be a necessary and extremely important skill.

In my experience, transition year is important because it provides students with the opportunity to avail of ECDL or other courses, which assist them in enhancing their skills. I accept that our guests may not have the relevant information in their possession. However, will they indicate the number of schools which offer dedicated classes in skills acquisition?

Is it the case that teachers who are long established in their schools find it much more difficult to change the methodologies they use? Young teachers may be full of vim and vigour, possess new ideas and have become familiar with ICT because they used it right through to third level and beyond, but it is much more difficult with established teachers, and that is another hurdle that must be crossed.

I welcome the delegation. I refer to the statistics on ICT use at primary level, which highlight that 34% of inspectors' reports indicate no usage or limited or inappropriate use of ICT. Is that not a shocking indictment of the system that more than one third of pupils are being left behind and that they are not being provided with the start they need? It is shocking evidence of the digital divide. Measurement is important in every field and we must measure to see where we stand, but the key question is what happens with these statistics and measurements. If schools are found to have no ICT usage or to use ICT inappropriately, what actions does the Department take to correct the problem?

Mr. Morrissey said 53% of computers in the primary sector and 43% in the post-primary sector are more than four years old. Will that become a greater problem in the present climate? What effect will that have on students?

It is good to have the opportunity to listen to the Department's view on ICT. As Deputy Conlon said, there is a mismatch between the reality for children when they leave the school gate and they enter the world of Bebo, Facebook, iTunes, iPods, text messaging and technology. It is ironic that the technology in schools is way behind what these young people are used to at home. I do not know what the Department can do about that. If it had unlimited money, there would be greater investment in technology in schools. Does the Department intend to examine the popularity of social networking websites such as Bebo and Facebook, which have caught on in a huge way among young people and adults? Is there any way of capitalising on the craze that has developed for social networking and communication in that mode and utilising that within the education system because this will become more popular and dominant? Has the Department a view on that?

I refer to the use of ICT within the classroom. Many schools with good resources can invest in interactive whiteboards, which, given my experience as a former teacher, is a great way of promoting IT with children being able to operate the equipment. While it is a demonstration tool rather than a working tool, has the Department a view on the need to invest in interactive whiteboards? If this is a matter for schools and if they raise the money, well and good? Is the Department's position that it does not have a view on whether they should use them?

At a previous meeting, I alerted the committee to the fact that a whiteboard costing several thousand euro can be simulated using a Nintendo Wii controller. Perhaps savvy teachers should be encouraged to do that because that would save significant money. Schools could use whiteboard technology at a cost of a few hundred euro.

Despite what some members have said, I acknowledge that an integrated pedagogical approach within the classroom is superior because one cannot learn how to play the guitar without learning songs or learn Spanish without speaking the language. There is no point in a teacher saying this is a computer and this is how to use it without doing stuff that students might find interesting as they go along. We are at a crucial point. There will be pressure on the national development plan in the budget with more cutbacks on the way. This will impact on the ICT budget but there are ways and means to save money. The report highlights that much of the funding for new equipment is being provided through the building programme and other grant schemes, which is why there was 20 times greater expenditure on computer equipment in 2003-04 than in 2008. I presume the money was provided through other channels.

As Deputy Conlon said, computers in schools are ageing. No audit has been carried out. Businesses are giving computers, especially laptops, to schools as they replace their current stock. There is more stock available than the Department might be aware of but Mr. Morrissey mentioned the partnership with the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources under which high speed broadband is being provided in second level schools. I presume this eventually will be provided in primary schools. Using that technology, why is there a need to even have laptops or PCs in schools? More basic models can operate on a server located elsewhere but accessed from the school. Has this been investigated? There is potential for every student and school to log in and have all the resources they need on-line on a central server or purchased at a good rate from a foreign server. There is significant storage capacity abroad. The software programmes can be run using the remote facility and, therefore, there is no need to have lumpy laptops and obsolete PCs and servers in schools. Are pilot projects planned to use high speed access for a remote computer system, for which all that is needed is a glorified keyboard and mouse so that people can access and save all their files remotely? That would save the Department a significant amount, which could be better spent on upskilling teachers.

Mr. Jerome McGuinness

The Chairman put his finger on a few key areas. One is the use of mobile technologies. Deputy Behan referred to students' own technologies. The time is coming and we must examine ways we can incorporate the portable intelligence devices children bring into schools. It is a big issue for the western world as to how we will solve that problem. Ultimately, it is not just a problem of deciding one day they can all come into school and turn on their PDAs, BlackBerrys or whatever. It is a classroom management issue. How does a teacher manage the deployment of such devices for practical learning and teaching in a 40-minute period? There are many problems. There could be a backwash effect on examinations or somebody could stand up and say "Miss, how is this going to get me my points for my leaving certificate"? These pressures will emerge. How does one solve the classroom management problems? We are examining how such devices can be incorporated.

The Chairman referred to a cloud computing approach. The Hermes project in Raheny has been run for a few years where the simple principle of remote servers and dumb terminals is being used in those schools. To date, it has been an expensive project. Industry is offering free storage etc. to change that. It will be a central part of the demonstration project and the co-operation between the Departments of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources and Education and Science. I agree it is a huge opportunity to introduce cloud computing into post-primary schools because the single biggest factor in driving such computing is the availability of symmetrical broadband. If such broadband is not available, one is wasting one's time.

Ms Mary McGarry

Senator Ryan referred to "shocking" results at primary level and asked what we are doing about it. We are pursuing the agenda set out in the strategy group report. We have the curricular context now with the ICT framework developed by the NCCA, which details to a significant degree all of the skills and competences students should access and the opportunities for accessing them throughout the curriculum. This touches on the point made by Deputy Quinn about acquiring the skills. It is all very well to talk about enlivening education, but if pupils do not know how to access it, there is another day's work to be done. The framework is an extremely important development the NCCA has signed off on. Therefore, we have the curricular context.

The next issue was teacher skills and development ——

On ICT, that seems to require a response at a high level. If, for example, inspectors visit a school and find problems there, do they issue a corrective action request to the school? Do they ask them to do something to correct the problem and go back to verify that has been done?

Ms Mary McGarry

That is really an issue for the inspectors.

Mr. Harold Hislop

The first thing that would occur after any school inspection would be a discussion with the staff. Therefore, the recommendations of the inspectorate team would be teased out with the principal, the staff and the board of management of the school. Very often, that conversation with the teachers and the staff gets down to the practicality of what can or cannot be done in the particular school. The recommendations on ICT or anything else are included in the published report. The school is asked to respond in writing to the report and to say what it intends to do about putting the recommendations in place.

If there are serious concerns about a particular issue, follow-up measures are taken by the Department. These measures vary, depending on the circumstances. They may, for example, involve engagement with the board of management or the patron of the school.

The reality then is the team does not get back to the school to see if recommendations have been effected.

Mr. Harold Hislop

It depends on the circumstances, but yes, we do.

Could we have some examples of where that has happened?

Mr. Harold Hislop

In terms of ICT ——

I am talking about a school in the 34% category referred to by Senator Ryan, where an informal discussion was held with the stakeholders and the recommendations were made and a written response received, but nothing seemed to happen. What happened when the team went back then?

Mr. Harold Hislop

We do not have an example from the sample of schools. We have not gone back to those schools with regard to their ICT. I am talking about what generally happens in terms of inspections where serious issues are raised.

With all due respect, we are aware of that. Perhaps this should be pursued. If one third of schools are failing in the specific area of ICT — this could probably be correlated with other socioeconomic factors — and if those with responsibility for the ICT area want to achieve what their colleagues beside them are achieving, there must be some follow up on the measurement, some requirement to respond or some invitation to say what is preventing them from implementing the recommendations. They may need help.

Mr. Harold Hislop

Yes. The conversation with the school and board of management is a formal conversation at a meeting held at the end of an inspection. Most cases involving ICT — as can be seen from the reports — relate to the skills and the comfort teachers have with use of ICT or to the appropriateness of the resources. The conversation is usually about where teachers can get advice and help on those issues. We recommend they contact the NCTE for help or the primary or second level support services which advises teachers on curriculum and teaching issues. Each of those have fully integrated ICT into their supports.

For example, since September of last year the second level support service has offered courses on the use of ICT in enhancing the teaching of physics, chemistry or biology. Instead of providing support on ICT, these courses supported the teaching of the subjects through the use of ICT. This is critical to tackle teachers' skills deficits, because if we can equip teachers properly in that manner, we will get the implementation level required. Support was also offered on the use of ICT for the leaving certificate vocational programme and for units on teaching and learning enterprise and other areas. Particular aspects of the primary curriculum were also addressed, for example, the use of ICT to support Gaeilge, which the inspectorate survey demonstrated was quite poor, despite the existence of resources.

The most effective way we can achieve greater use of ICT is through our advisory role at the end of the inspection. The schools will come up for inspection again, but our interventions are only in extremely serious cases.

I remind the delegates that there were also questions from Deputies Conlon, Deenihan and O'Mahony.

Mr. Éamonn Murtagh

One of the important issues raised by Deputy Conlon was the question of whether children would continue to develop traditional skills such as handwriting. One of the challenges facing teachers is that ICT is now part of the curriculum along with all the traditional skills and requires time. Obviously, children will continue to develop the traditional skills.

They could practise their handwriting on a personal digital assistant, PDA.

Mr. Éamonn Murtagh

Yes. However, I notice that despite the fact that we are all technologically literate, we continue to use our pens and pencils. Therefore, I believe children will continue to need the two schools.

With regard to what Deputy Conlon and others have said, the measures we have taken on the implementation and integration of ICT in recent years have all shown inestimable improvement over time. The figures we cited today may well have been overtaken by improvements that have happened since 2006 when most recently measured. As technology becomes cheaper, teachers become more proficient and the technology becomes better integrated into curriculum areas, it is used far more extensively. At post primary level in particular, ICT is well embedded into subjects like history, geography, mathematics and science. There is more use of ICT in those curriculum areas.

Ms Mary McGarry

To follow on what Mr. Murtagh has said, we have seen the need at post primary level for ICT to be integrated into the curriculum. Individual post primary teachers can no longer say ICT is not their responsibility because they do not do computers. That is the reason our focus at post primary level is to ensure the use of ICT is of curricular relevance to the teacher and students, like with geography and the new technology subjects, and is of benefit and accessible to students. At primary level the curriculum across the board supports the integration of ICT.

There is a huge challenge in equipping primary schools for this. In hindsight, that we did not equip new build primary schools in the past with ICT equipment budgets seems ironic. However, we are doing it now as part and parcel of all new building. I agree that if there is no further investment, computers will age and become less economic to operate or obsolete. We must enhance the investment being made by schools, coupled with State investment. We have a €10 million capital budget this year for the ICT in schools programme. ICT frameworks also operate under CMOD in the Department of Finance where the collective bargaining power of schools can be brought to bear. Also, the NCTE is working with the specific primary schools given equipment budgets prior to Christmas to try to aggregate purchases to ensure we get better bang for our buck with regard to investment in primary schools.

We have set out what we feel is the appropriate technological specification of equipment for primary school classrooms. We need to develop framework agreements for the purchase of data and digital projectors and other peripherals such as visualisers and so on so that school principals are not faced with the task of having to undertake this procurement in isolation. That is the direction we are taking with regard to technical infrastructure. We are also working with industry to explore options for how best to implement the recommendations of the strategy group report.

Teacher training programmes are under review by The Teaching Council. The ICT area will be a key area in that review. We have already spoken about the continuing professional development activity undertaken by the NCTE and some 11,000 teachers use their own time to pursue that. ICT must be integrated in all support service activities as outlined by Mr. Hislop.

I asked earlier whether there was greater use of ICT in the programme for teachers following the Hibernia programme.

Mr. Éamonn Murtagh

We do not have specific evidence about differences between particular education colleges. However, we know all the colleges of education have teacher education programmes on the use and integration of ICT in learning.

Is it that the data has not been collected yet?

Mr. Éamonn Murtagh

Yes. We would need to conduct complex research to find the difference between students coming from different colleges, but that is not something we have done.

It would be easier to do an analysis of the course work of each college. Through that, it would be easy to find which college provided more education on ICT.

Mr. Éamonn Murtagh

It is a matter for The Teaching Council to determine the courses provided in the colleges. I am aware, however, that all the colleges have courses in ICT for their students.

Deputy Frank Feighan wants to put a question.

I do not want to go back over the various issues. Much of the presentation was positive, but that may be because of how it was written. I did not understand much about computers but because of the lack of urgency on the part of the Department I was part of a board that set up Boyle 2000 to provide computer training for children in schools. We put significant effort into that programme and it still funds training for children in those schools.

Looking at the OECD figures, I see the figures of 24% and 47%. Some 30 years ago we were told that ICT was the way forward for schools, but despite the untold wealth of the country over the past while we lag far behind other OECD countries. Why is that and who is responsible for it? Is it because of lack of funding or foresight or was there resistance to ICT in the schools? The progress being made now is great, but we have missed seven, eight or nine years of being at the forefront. What happened in that regard? How was ICT advanced in other countries? I do not want to play the blame game, but we did not get up to the mark. Why have we been slow in getting to where we are?

The officials will be able to answer some of those questions, but they cannot comment on policy matters.

Currently, some 19% or 21% — depending on which figures we use — of young people, predominantly young working class males, drop out of our education system functionally illiterate. Is there any way the digital era can reverse this or are the factors that bring this about so broadly based in socioeconomic terms — including support from the home — that we are likely to have the same percentage being electronically or ICT illiterate? Does the ICT era offer a chance to jump that divide?

With regard to the difficult times facing us for the next five to ten years, how can we recycle and reuse equipment? Here in the Oireachtas we have had about three generations of IT over the past three or four years. I am told the equipment gets dumped and is not used, which is scandalous because it would be still good for the purposes required by young people. Many industries and local firms want to donate used equipment, whether photocopiers, laptops or old PCs, but they are told that is not acceptable. We are in different times so how can we avoid this kind of conspicuous waste and reuse old equipment? What role, if any, do the NCTE and the officials here have to provide advisory support in that regard?

With regard to the comment on equipment from the Oireachtas, when my computer was upgraded recently I asked what was going to happen to the old one. I was told the hard disk would probably be destroyed. The reason this happens is it would probably take about 17 passes to get rid of all the data and confidential information on the computer. While it may be a cost issue, this is the case not just with regard to old Oireachtas equipment but also with regard to business equipment.

Given the current era of scant resources, it is time for a complete rethink of our priorities in this area. Has the Department costed its proposals for the steps to be taken based on the collective wisdom here? It must bear in mind the need for web-based learning and chat rooms in the integrated curriculum content. Has the Department costed its proposals based on those needs? What is the cost?

We have four main questions in that. Deputy Feighan wants to know where we went wrong and what comment the officials would make with regard to how we compare with OECD figures. Deputy Quinn mentioned the digital era and the challenges in overcoming illiteracy and the issue of recycling. Senator Healy Eames raised the issue of costs.

Mr. Éamonn Murtagh

In response to Deputy Feighan, the figure of 24% in 2003 rose to 47% in 2006. We can see therefore that the frequency rate for computer use increased rapidly. With regard to Deputy Quinn's question, retention rates at second level have risen in recent years to close to 90% at leaving certificate level. This will impact on literacy levels far more than the use of ICT. ICT packages are available to help improve literacy and they are used in adult literacy programmes and, to some extent, to help children learn to read at primary school. They may have an impact, but what is probably more important is the length of time spent at school, which will help to reduce functional illiteracy rates.

Is Mr. Murtagh saying the drop out rate is no longer 21%, but has dropped down to approximately 10%?

It is 18%. I am aware of that because of an Oireachtas study we are carrying out on that area. Deputy Quinn is making a critical point. While the length of time spent at school is critical, many of the children who dropped out in the past were not motivated by the traditional curriculum. It did not keep them at school whereas computers in schools are a means to keep many children motivated. Retention relates to the type of education they get when they are in school. We are not touching on qualitative aspects in this debate. Deputy Feighan spoke about being behind other countries. Basic computer skills like being able to turn on the computer and save information have increased, but we have no evidence of an increase in qualitative needs, based on society's needs today, such as web-based learning. We cannot just say usage has increased. We need to know what type of usage has increased. That is the issue on which we need answers.

Ms Mary McGarry

Our experience, which is replicated within the EU and the OECD, is that we are measuring the quality of usage. Measurement has gone beyond the simple provision of ICT. However, some classrooms have not gone beyond the provision of ICT. Up to 10% of primary school classrooms may not have computers. There is a challenge in that regard. However, as the Senator quite rightly pointed out, the issue is the quality of the integration.

With regard to the motivational aspects of ICT, particularly in terms of disadvantaged pupils, we have programme — the Dublin inner city schools initiative — which is partnered by the DIT, the NCTE and a number of ICT companies. They would report that following the use of computers or technology or perhaps the use of digital video on a Friday, attendance on Fridays improves. Clearly, ICT has a motivational role and we need to capitalise on that.

We recently met representatives of Rehab to discuss its refurbishment programme. There is possibly some potential to expand on that. I would like to speak about the costs. I will outline how this whole thing has been approached. The strategy group's vision was based on the expected level of investment, which was the €252 million fund and the additional expenditure of €337 million elsewhere in the Department. That is the basis on which the strategy was costed. We now have a costed basis for it.

Ms McGarry is still looking at the older costs. I do understand the reference to €337 million.

Ms Mary McGarry

Some €337 million of additional expenditure has been provided for. I mentioned earlier that money is being provided for ICT outside the strict ICT in schools programme; for example, under the school building programme.

Is €337 million needed to implement what Ms McGarry is proposing?

Ms Mary McGarry

That is what the strategy group has recommended.

Right. That is what we need to be clear on. I thank Ms McGarry.

Mr. Jerome Morrissey

I would like to answer Deputy Quinn's question about the refurbishment of old computers. As Ms McGarry said, it is something we have been examining for many years. Many things have hindered us, or prevented us from taking action during that time. When we spoke recently to Rehab, which refurbishes the vast majority of used computers, we heard about the latest constraint. All that is needed before a computer is sent to a school is for its hard disk to be cleared and the machine to be shined up. Although that costs approximately €150, one cannot provide a warranty of more than a couple of months as one cannot be sure that the computer will work. It should also be borne in mind that many classrooms are not big enough for these huge machines. I suggest that we should place a greater emphasis on portable laptops. One can buy a brand new squeaky clean laptop for approximately €400. While the refurbishment of computers looks like a fantastic idea on the surface, one needs to bear in mind that it involves many changing dynamics. We do not have a closed mind on it, as it might lead to marginal savings in the end. We offer advice to schools on it. I suppose it is up to each school to make a choice.

I remind Mr. Morrissey that 10% of schools do not have any computers.

Mr. Jerome Morrissey

I understand that.

Ms Mary McGarry

More accurately, 10% of classrooms do not have any computers.

Mr. Jerome Morrissey

Exactly. The Chairman and Deputy Behan asked about interactive whiteboards. In the strategy report, we recommended that each classroom should have a specified ICT configuration. We recommend to those developing new primary schools that every classroom's standard configuration should include a laptop, a digital projector, a wireless keyboard and a wireless mouse. I am worried about interactive whiteboards, which are being strongly marketed. I accept that they are very attractive. All international research suggests that interactive whiteboards should not be made available to teachers who do not have experience of using other forms of technology in their schools. While interactive whiteboards are phenomenally useful devices in some senses — they raise motivation, etc. — it can be argued that they are quite superficial in other respects.

I suggest that rather than encouraging integration, they focus attention on the classroom teacher. Additionally, they are very expensive. For the cost of one interactive whiteboard, one could put a digital projector and a laptop into four classrooms. I remind Deputy Quinn that the NCTE website includes a huge amount of advice on these issues. We also send such information to schools for their consideration. We recommend that schools should put computers, laptops and digital projectors into classrooms before they dream about interactive whiteboards. Not only are interactive whiteboards more expensive, but many teachers are unable to manage them ab initio.

I thank Ms McGarry for correcting me by pointing out that 10% of classrooms, rather than 10% of schools, do not have any computers. The record will reflect that.

I would like to respond to the point made by Mr. Morrissey. Along with some of my colleagues on this committee, I have observed the hard sell from the interactive whiteboard sector at management conferences organised by the Irish Primary Principals Network and the National Association of Principals and Deputy Principals. That is what teachers are being confronted with. Mr. Morrissey's remark that one could get four laptops and four digital projectors for the price of one interactive whiteboard, while achieving the same outcomes, is not commonly understood.

One can get an interactive whiteboard for the price of a Wii.

It is not commonly understood.

I am sure it is on the NCTE website.

Mr. Jerome Morrissey

It is.

It is not a seductive sell, with all due respect to Mr. Morrissey, who is follically challenged like myself.

Mr. Jerome Morrissey

I understand that.

It is clear at the various management conferences that interactive whiteboards are being marketed heavily.

Mr. Jerome Morrissey

Absolutely.

One of the issues at stake in this context is the lack of appropriate upskilling of teachers. We should help teachers to understand that the same outcomes can be achieved with a laptop and a data projector. I agree that there is a big gap in the learning of teachers. That is the issue.

Mr. Jerome Morrissey

Our local education centres provided professional development training to approximately 11,400 teachers last year. The use of digital media represented a significant aspect of the training courses. We have to accept that interactive whiteboards are out there. Despite what I have said about them, from September of this year we will train teachers in their use. However, we strongly recommend that they reflect on their options. I agree with Deputy Quinn that I cannot send salesmen with flashy cars around the country to offer alternative choices. We are concerned that schools are being approached with all kinds of scenarios, including sponsorship, etc., to encourage them to purchase interactive whiteboards. We are using our website to try to raise people's awareness of their options.

When teachers avail of five days of training of this nature, can they get three days' leave in return?

Mr. Jerome Morrissey

Some of them can. Approximately 2,000 teachers have done that.

It is obvious that there is a greater incentive for teachers to attend training courses if, in return, they can take course days off during the year.

Ms Mary McGarry

All summer course training is now required to have an ICT aspect.

Great. I think we have covered everything. It has been a comprehensive presentation. Very intelligent questions have been asked. I thank the officials from the Department for attending.

The joint committee went into private session at 11.40 a.m. and adjourned at 11.50 a.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 9 April 2009.
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