JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE debate -
Thursday, 28 Jan 2010

Student Services Charge: Discussion.

Chairman

I welcome the following: Dr. Hugh Brady, president, University College Dublin; Professor Ferdinand Von Prondzynski, president, Dublin City University; Professor John G. Hughes, president, NUI Maynooth; Professor John Hegarty, provost, Trinity College Dublin; Dr. James J. Browne, president, NUI Galway; Dr. Michael Murphy, president, University College Cork; Professor Don Barry, president, University of Limerick; Professor John Hughes, chair, Irish Universities Association Council; Mr. Ned Costello, CEO, Irish Universities Association; Mr. Michael Casey, director of finance and operations, Irish Universities Association; and Mr. Tom Boland, chief executive, Higher Education Authority.

The presentation today is on the disbursement of student registration fees and student support services in each college as well as proposals to accommodate students who have not paid their registration fee due to delays in the payment of the third level student grant. As is the norm, members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind visiting guests that they too should not say anything about anyone, comment or criticise or make charges that may make a person identifiable and, unlike Members of the Oireachtas, they are not covered by parliamentary privilege. I now invite Professor John G. Hughes to begin the presentation.

Professor John G. Hughes

On behalf of my colleagues, I thank the committee for giving their attention to this important matter of the student services charge and the related issue of those students affected by a delay in the payment of their maintenance grants. As is customary, I shall base my opening remarks on the submission we have supplied to the committee.

It is helpful to begin by examining the statutory basis for the charge. It is grounded in section 40 of the Universities Act 1997, which pertains to the matter of fees generally. The section contains broad provisions that empower the universities to charge fees to cover any or all aspects of the services provided by them. The specific wording is as follows, "... student registration, courses, lectures, examinations, exhibitions or any other event, service or publication held or provided at or by, or produced by, the university". The Act makes provision for the Higher Education Authority to review fees relating to registration, courses, lectures and examinations relating to those courses. In addition, there is provision for the HEA, following consultation with the Minister, to advise the university on the fees which in its opinion should be charged. As stated in the Act, the provision is advisory rather than directive or binding.

I shall turn first to the historical background of the charge and its evolution. The student services charge, as the committee will know, was introduced in 1996 by the then Minister for Education following the abolition of undergraduate fees. Prior to this, a composite fee that included an element for student capitation was payable by non-grant holding students attending courses in the universities. Following the abolition of fees, the recurrent moneys paid to the universities were allocated on the basis of a core grant and a grant in lieu of fees. These moneys were then supplemented by the student services charge.

There is no explicit connection between the moneys provided through the Estimates process and the scale of the student services charge. In practice, however, significant adjustments in the core grant have tended to be reflected in concomitant adjustments to the student services charge. Most recently, in the context of the budget and Estimates for 2009, the Minister for Education and Science stated:

The Estimates provision for higher education is €1,844 million as compared with €1,887 million in 2008. The Estimate allows for an increase in the student registration charge from its current rate of €900 to up to €1,500 in individual institutions for the academic year 2009/2010. Combined, this funding is generally in line with the projected outturn in 2008

As regards the scope of the application of the student services charge, in 1998, the Higher Education Authority, in consultation with the universities, developed a framework which recommended that the charge be categorised in three parts, namely, a registration fee, examination fee and student services fee. However, there has never been any explicit definition, statutory or otherwise, as to what exactly constitutes student services. The scope of the charge could vary from a narrow band of direct services for students, such as registration, counselling, and so on, to a broader definition which could include examinations and support services such as libraries and information technology services, all of which students benefit from and are separate from tuition. While all these services are chargeable under the Act, as the scale of the charges increased, more of these services have been subvented by the charge. That said, the Higher Education Authority has recently written to the universities seeking a review of the student services charge.

In this context, we have been asked to focus explicitly on how the income from the student services charge is disbursed. In that regard, we have included in the main submission and appendices tables which show data for the years 2007-08 and 2008-09, respectively. We also include a detailed list of expenditure headings to which income from the student services charge may be applied. While I do not propose to discuss the calculations in detail, I would be pleased to answer any questions members may have on the tables.

On consultation with students, all universities have processes in place which vary in detail from institution to institution but are broadly similar. At an overarching level, as provided for in statute, all universities have student representatives on their governing authorities. The governing authority has ultimate responsibility for determining the fees to be charged by a university and the disposition of the university's resources. It will be seen from the detail of the consultation processes described in the main submission that student representatives are extensively involved in a range of committee and fora relating to the disbursement of the student services charge. Students are involved in detailed discussions on a number of specific areas supported by income from the charge and at the highest level of the universities' governance where matters relating to overall financing of the universities are discussed.

We are aware from previous deliberations of the joint committee on this matter that members have concerns about the broad range of university activities which the income from the student services charge is subventing in whole or in part. As I indicated, there is no precise definition as to what constitutes student services and the Universities Act brings the external financing of all activities of the university together under a single heading, namely, the word "fees".

This issue needs to be seen in the context of the broader debate on how higher education institutions, specifically universities, are to be financed. As the joint committee will be aware from our previous meeting and submission, the Irish Universities Association has expressed concerns about the excessive dependence of the universities on Exchequer funding and the absence of a comprehensive policy on individual contributions. In our submission, we made specific proposals on the introduction of a system of income contingent loans and top up fees. In our submission to the higher education strategy group, the Irish Universities Association has called for greater clarity and predictability in the overall funding of higher education and recommended the introduction of a multi-annual budgetary framework.

Clearly, reform of the system in these two key dimensions would help prevent a recurrence of those instances where the student services charge had to increase to offset falls in Exchequer funding. In addition, while the association does not claim that it is a short-term panacea, income from a student loans system could, in time, allow the level of the student services charge and the areas of expenditure which it subvents to be reviewed and potentially reduced.

I will briefly address the issue the joint committee raised regarding those students who, due to delays in their grant applications, have not had their student services charge paid. This issue arises regularly and not simply in the context of the specific delays experienced this year. As a result, over time all the universities have developed policies to deal with circumstances in which grant applicant students have registered and are thus liable for the student services charge but the relevant payment agency has not processed their grant applications. As the submission shows, the universities have been particularly sensitive to this matter, notably this year where undue delays have occurred in processing grant applications. The approach adopted by the individual universities is described in the submission.

The universities draw attention to the highly unsatisfactory nature of the position in respect of the pressures on their budgets and the need to strike an appropriate balance between responsiveness to the needs and difficulties of the students and the requirement for prudent fiscal management. The universities strongly support the need to overhaul and modernise the student grant administration system to avoid the type of difficulties students experience and make the system more efficient overall.

In this statement and our submission, Irish Universities Association has set out the circumstances surrounding the determination and disbursement of the student services charge and the responsible approach of the universities to difficulties encountered by grant applicant students. We have also addressed the wider policy context and made suggestions for reforms to bring greater diversity and predictability to the overall funding of universities and higher education generally. I thank the joint committee again for its invitation to appear before it to discuss these matters.

Chairman

This is a complex issue. Members and guests have been circulated with a copy of a letter from the students unions of the seven universities in which they question some of the figures provided. In that context, to ensure we have a thorough examination of the issue, I will give considerable latitude to members in putting questions to representatives of the Irish Universities Association. I remind members that this is not a court. Nevertheless, questions must be probing and if slightly controversial matters are raised, it will be done purely to try to obtain clarity on a specific issue. We must get to the nub of the matter and ensure that the Higher Education Authority, universities, students and the Minister, who will follow these proceedings with interest, know the precise position regarding student support services and where student support fees are being and should be spent.

Deputy Brian Hayes

I welcome Professor Hughes, his colleagues from the Irish Universities Association and Mr. Boland from the Higher Education Authority to the meeting to discuss an issue in which members of the joint committee have a great interest. Professor Hughes is in receipt of a letter which was sent to the joint committee by the student unions of the seven colleges represented by the Irish Universities Association. I draw attention to a serious allegation in the second page of the correspondence. Do members of the delegation have a copy?

Chairman

To give members of the delegation adequate time to read the letter, I suggest the Deputy first focus his questions on the issue of students who have not paid the student services charge due to delays in the payment of the higher education student grant. If we deal with that specific issue for the next couple of minutes, it will allow time for the document to be copied and circulated.

Deputy Brian Hayes

I propose to read out the relevant part of the letter to elicit a response from the delegation. It refers to the detailed submission on the accounts of the universities presented to the joint committee by the Irish Universities Association. The letter states that the information in the submission is vastly different from what had previously been presented to the students unions in their respective institution's financial committees. This, the students unions believe, "amounts to subterfuge" and they demand a more thorough, specific expenditure breakdown, which avoids the use of such hollow terms as "student services" and "academic and other services". The suggestion in the correspondence is that the information sent to the joint committee by the Irish Universities Association does not reflect the information given to each of the financial committees in the seven universities. I ask Professor Hughes to respond to this suggestion.

Professor John Hughes

I dispute that. I can only speak for my institution. The information provided is what would have been presented to our planning and development committee, which is our main finance committee, and on to the governing authority.

In regard to my committee, recently, we had our annual accounts for the years 2003 and 2004 right through to 2006 and 2007 signed off by the Comptroller and Auditor General with full disclosure of the use of the student services charge in a format that is dictated by the Comptroller and Auditor General and is consistent with what is shown on this table. In all of the years the core funding has subsidised this service.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Is it the position of the Irish Universities Association, IUA, that as the registration fee goes up, implicit in that is recognition that the core grant automatically goes down, that in effect, as the core grant from the Government reduces one is asking students to fund the core activities of the universities? In that context I wish to pose a question for Mr. Boland. When was it ever the position of the HEA to allow the seven universities to recategorise their accounts to include library activity as a core element of a student's experience in college? Is it the position of the HEA that it gave permission to the seven universities for that purpose?

Mr. Tom Boland

It goes back to the issue of a student service and how it is defined. The HEA has never given express permission on the delineation of any particular expenditure.

Deputy Brian Hayes

On the issue of the library, is it Mr. Boland's view that it is a core activity of the college or is it a student service?

Mr. Tom Boland

It is both, in fairness. It is obviously a core activity of a university but, equally, it is a service to students.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Does the HEA have any difficulty with the seven universities changing their definition of student services to include library services?

Mr. Tom Boland

In principle, no.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Did the HEA advise the Minister of that? My understanding of section 40 of the Universities Act is that the HEA, as the key agency, has a responsibility to advise the Minister. Did Mr. Boland advise the Minister of that?

Mr. Tom Boland

Not specifically that I am aware of.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Did the Minister seek advice on the matter?

Mr. Tom Boland

Again, not that I am aware of.

Deputy Brian Hayes

At any stage in the past 12 months, was there specific correspondence to the seven universities giving permission for this recategorisation?

Mr. Tom Boland

Again, not that I am aware of.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Does Mr. Boland believe the seven universities are entitled to do this on a unilateral basis without the permission of the HEA?

Mr. Tom Boland

The position of the universities is that they can charge such fees as they consider appropriate. The position of the HEA is to review the fees that they charge and to advise the Minister accordingly. That is the legal position. As it happens, what we are doing at the moment, as mentioned by Professor Hughes, is that we are reviewing the student services charge specifically to clarify the income and expenditure associated with the charge and to clarify the structures in place for its disbursement.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Does Mr. Boland stand over the submission and appendices 1 and 2 that were given to the committee in the detailed presentation by the IUA?

Mr. Tom Boland

I do not know that I need to stand over it, but I see nothing in it that would present me with particular difficulties.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Nothing at all in it would present Mr. Boland with difficulties.

Mr. Tom Boland

Having read it, that is correct.

Deputy Brian Hayes

My next question is for the IUA. It seems to me that this is a gigantic game of bluff between the Minister, the HEA and the seven universities. As the fees are effectively introduced by the back door by the radical increase in student registration fees, the core grant is cut, the universities change their accounts to allow them to increase the charge up to €1,500 each per head per year and we all seem to accept gross collusion in this exercise. Would it not be more sensible for the seven university presidents to publicly state that this situation cannot pertain, that it is utterly unfair, and that it is a form of creative accountancy, a kind of Tommy Cooper economics — "Now you see it; now you don't"? Ultimately, the universities might have more standing by saying directly to the Government that what we need is a new approach to funding higher education, which I have advocated, rather than playing along with this Soviet-style game, which we all know it is a form of deception, but we all think we can get away with it.

Professor John Hughes

We have said that we want major reform of the funding of universities. That is in the submission and it was in my statement, that we want reform. I dispute the notion that there is some form of subterfuge or collusion going on. Frankly, the universities do not have control over what has happened in the past ten or 12 years with regard to the student services charge and the core grant. We agree with Deputy Hayes that when the core grant has reduced on occasion the student services charge has increased to offset the reductions in the core grant, but the universities have not been involved in that decision.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Did the IUA seek to increase the student services charge from €900 to €1,500?

Professor John Hughes

No.

Deputy Brian Hayes

The Minister recently wrote to each of the presidents of the universities, in the context of the economy and the substantial pay cuts that have been imposed across the public sector, seeking a voluntary pay cuts in their salaries. What was the response of each of the presidents to that request?

Mr. Ned Costello

I might answer that.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Mr. Costello is not a president.

Mr. Ned Costello

It is a sectoral question because it applies to all the universities. Pay determination in the public service has been undertaken through the review body on higher remuneration consistently over a period. The Minister for Finance announced in the previous budget that he would ask the review body to review higher pay, which as the Deputy is aware, the review body did. That resulted in the various cuts that are being applied through the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Acts. Those are being applied to the pay of university presidents and other senior university officers as well.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Is there nothing else on top of that? His correspondence to the presidents was that he was seeking a voluntary pay cut.

Professor John Hughes

There was no correspondence from the Minister asking the presidents for a voluntary pay cut.

Deputy Brian Hayes

No correspondence has been received. That is fine.

Professor John Hughes

There were calls in the newspapers but it would be highly inappropriate to expect university presidents to respond to stories that appear in newspapers.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Did the Minister not directly ask the presidents?

Professor John Hughes

At no stage.

Deputy Brian Hayes

That is very important information. I thank Professor Hughes for that. Also on that issue, would Professor Hughes accept that ultimately we need a new funding system? I accept that he is on the record to that effect for quite some time. There are a multiplicity of views but the current system cannot continue. What is required is an independent source of funding for higher level education so that we can reposition the entire sector. In that context I put it that it would make much more sense for the IUA to be clearer to the Government about the mechanism by which students are being charged through the registration fee, that, in effect, the registration fee is fees by the back door, and that the accounts that have been presented to this committee have got to reflect that increase which the Government has given the universities the power to levy. That is not a sustainable position in the long term.

Professor John Hughes

We have argued on numerous occasions and in submissions to Government and the Higher Education Review that the system for funding of universities needs a radical overhaul. We agree completely with Deputy Hayes on that point. We also agree that the student services charge is a fee. If one is paying €1,500, of course it is a fee. Whether it is called a student services charge or something else it is still a fee that one has to pay. The situation is unsatisfactory and needs reform.

Deputy Brian Hayes

I thank Professor Hughes.

Mr. Tom Boland

I agree that the student service charge is a charge or a fee. There is no question about that. The point is that tuition is still paid for by the Government. There are no tuition fees in higher education here. I agree that the mechanism for funding higher education requires a thorough review. Higher education, by common agreement, needs considerably more resources. The question of how they are to be obtained is an issue that the Minister has referred to the national strategy on higher education group, which will report in the coming months and, I hope, give some guidance in this very important area.

Deputy Brian Hayes

When does Mr. Boland expect his review to be completed?

Mr. Tom Boland

I am not a member of the review group but understand the review will be finished in advance of the summer.

Deputy Brian Hayes

I find it difficult to understand the role of the HEA in this matter. If Mr. Boland discovered services to the value of €1,500 were not evident in any of the seven constituent universities, would he make a finding to the effect that the charge should be reduced? Would he make a finding against any of the universities?

Mr. Tom Boland

We would have to.

Deputy Brian Hayes

How many times has the HEA done so to date?

Mr. Tom Boland

We have reviewed the charge three times and each time the reviewers were satisfied the student service charge was applied properly. The last review was in 2008. We are now conducting another review, at the request of the Minister.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Even if the HEA found against any of the seven universities, there would be no evidence to suggest that they had been directed either to pay moneys back that were not directed towards them——

Mr. Tom Boland

In each of the previous reviews, no difficulty was identified.

Deputy Brian Hayes

What about the view expressed earlier by Professor John Hughes that even if the HEA did express an opinion on the charge, it would have no authority in the matter in any case?

Mr. Tom Boland

One must consider the dynamic of the funding of higher education, the overwhelming proportion of which comes from the Exchequer. Therefore, there is an iterative process of negotiation between HEA institutions, be they universities or institutions of technology, and the Government. Ultimately, the Government is the paymaster.

Deputy Brian Hayes

The universities' position is that they are autonomous. According to what Professor Hughes stated on section 40 of the Act, they can do this anyway.

Mr. Tom Boland

Legally, they can.

Deputy Brian Hayes

The HEA does not have a role.

Mr. Tom Boland

It has a role in regard to advice. The realpolitik is that we are all——

Deputy Brian Hayes

It is in a legal position to give advice.

Mr. Tom Boland

The Government can decide on the level of funding.

Deputy Brian Hayes

What is Mr. Boland's view on possible changes to section 40 of the University Act, which I read in detail last night. The first subsection seems to allow latitude to the universities to do as they choose but the second refers to much more specific categorisation of charges. Should we now review section 40?

Mr. Tom Boland

That is quite possibly a good approach. Having been in the Department of Education at the time of drafting, I recall that while universities were being given freedom to charge fees, there was concern that there should be an element of consumer protection.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Does Mr. Boland regard himself as the watchdog?

Mr. Tom Boland

That is a fair enough description.

Deputy Brian Hayes

A pretty toothless watchdog.

Mr. Tom Boland

Ultimately, the HEA and the Department of Education and Science hold the purse strings. The purse strings are ultimately the teeth of a watchdog.

Deputy Brian Hayes

I thank Mr. Boland.

Senator Brendan Ryan

I thank the chairman and welcome the delegates.

There is no doubt that student fees have been introduced through the back door. Professor Hughes has indicated we have fees in any event. It is a scandal but I am not sure we should address such remarks to the delegates present today. I am struggling with this. If, as seems to be the case, the Minister has given the go-ahead to increase the student registration charge from €900 to €1,500 and to reduce the core grant, one is still dealing with the same amount of money. There should be an absolute charge on the Minister in those circumstances.

Consider the circumstances in the absence of an absolute definition of what student charges should entail, bearing in mind that there is a framework. If one must achieve something using a certain sum of money, I can understand totally why one would opt for a broad definition to get one through the year rather than the narrow definition, which would leave one in trouble. I can understand the difficulty that arises. The absence of a definition is the core of the problem. In this regard, one must also consider the Minister's decision to cut back on funding. I can understand what is being done and why it is being done.

In the piece put together on consultation, everything, including the kitchen sink, has been opted for. It seems the various universities have decided to identify everything the students are involved in and include it in their submission. Based on the feedback we have received from the student bodies, this does not match with their experience on the ground. I am not in a position to read the submission concerning every college and determine whether it is adequate or reflects reality but the next step is for the student bodies to examine them to see whether they match their experience. They should at least challenge the universities in respect of the level of consultation they say took place. They should challenge the universities to disburse the charges in the manner they claim they are disbursing them. My message to the student bodies is that, once they have taken on this challenge, they should tell the result to the committee. I suspect there is quite a deal of padding in the presentation.

Professor John Hughes

I agree fully with the Senator's summary of the overall situation, which is very unsatisfactory.

With regard to the involvement of students, let me refer to the example of my institution, which is typical among universities. There are three student representatives on the governing authority and three on the academic council. Those are the two major decision-making bodies in the university. Students have representation on every sub-committee of the council and governing authority. The involvement of students in the decision-making process is extensive throughout the universities. This includes finance committees, which decide on the disbursement of our moneys.

Senator Brendan Ryan

The real question is whether the student bodies feel they have a say or whether the arrangement is just presented to them with no other option.

Professor Ferdinand von Prondzynski

To flesh that out from the perspective of my university, the student services charge is a topic of discussion almost annually among the various decision-making bodies, for the kinds of reasons set out in the letter and those that have emerged in the conversation at this meeting. Every year, we draw up a separate set of data in DCU relating specifically to the student services charge. It is made available to the students' union. Every year, I offer the union, if it wishes it, a separate meeting on the set of data in order to go through the details. Of the ten students' union groups of sabbatical officers I have experienced in DCU, only two ever took me up on this offer. The current students' union president has not yet been in a position to do so because the data are usually released in the spring.

While I understand the issues raised in the letter and that the presentation of accounts can be complex, the students' union has not pursued this matter in DCU, except on two occasions in two separate years. Perhaps we need to ensure there is an annual discussion.

Information that is different from that presented to the committee has never been presented to the students. It has always been absolutely consistent.

Senator Brendan Ryan

Paragraph 3 of page 1 of the letter that was referenced reads:

Despite the statements to the contrary in the IUA submission to this committee, we wish to confirm that the principles of student consultation and active participation in the disbursement of the student services charge under the aforementioned framework are not being adhered to in any of our universities. No signatory to this letter has even been consulted on the spending associated with the charges' income or the allocation of that income to student services in direct contravention to the framework.

Have the delegations any comments on this?

Professor John Hughes

Our opening statement covered that and we would dispute it. Our institution would have direct meetings specifically related to the student services charge early in the year and the matter would be discussed at the various committees that deal with financial matters in which students are involved.

Deputy John O’Mahony

The student union presidents are very clear that no signatory to this letter has ever been consulted on the spending associated with the charges income. Is this the case?

Professor John Hughes

The presidents of the student unions are almost exclusively the members of the senior decision-making bodies of the universities such as the governing authority, the academic council and the planning and development committee. It is those committees that make decisions on the use of the universities' moneys.

Deputy John O’Mahony

Is Professor Hughes suggesting this letter is untrue?

Professor John Hughes

Maybe "untrue" is too strong a word. Perhaps they misunderstood the way in which decisions are made about the disbursement of moneys.

Deputy John O’Mahony

I will park that.

On the issue of how universities deal with students whose grants are delayed, I feel their submissions played with words. We have heard from students that they have been excluded from libraries and threatened with not being allowed to take examinations. The universities claim they do not put undue pressure on students or that there will be immediate consequences. What does that mean?

While I am not blaming the universities for the delay in grant payments, there is an issue as to how they dealt with it, particularly considering students have enough trauma preparing for examinations.

Professor John Hughes

As stated in our submission, the universities believe they have been as sensitive as possible in this regard. We must also balance our responsiveness to the needs of students with prudent fiscal management, particularly when we are experiencing significant difficulties with our finances. This is not a new phenomenon and has been going on for some time. For many years students have had delays in the payments of their grants. All universities have in place procedures to allow students to deal with this. In some cases, there could be possibly some sanctions, such as on the borrowing of books from libraries, until the grant is paid.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames took the Chair.

Deputy John O’Mahony

We still hear horror stories on the lack of sensitivity on the part of universities when dealing with the delay in grant payments. I spoke to a student yesterday who had not got the first stage of his grant yet and I accept this causes difficulties for the universities. The students are the ones, however, suffering at the coalface and it is not just acceptable.

Acting Chairman (Senator Fidelma Healy Eames)

The student is also a customer.

Professor Ferdinand Von Prondzynski

It is a wholly unacceptable situation and the position students are in is terrible. DCU has tried to be sensitive about the issue. Accounts were not blocked in October but we have put temporary arrangements in place which continue while we are waiting for the money to come through. Students are not being denied services during this time.

I must point out this is a serious cash flow problem for DCU, amounting to €2 million which has to be covered from other reserves. While it might be unacceptable and a difficult position for students, it is equally so for us.

Acting Chairman

How assertively have the universities put their case to the Minister? The universities have not provided a precise definition as to what constitutes the student service charge. There are also discrepancies between the various reports from different colleges. For example, Cork Institute of Technology claims it gave €505 out of €995 per charge while Mary Immaculate College, Limerick, claims it raised €2,188,000 from the charges of which the students' union got €322,000, examination costs were €245,000 and the costs for student services not yet known.

Why can the colleges and universities not produce a set of figures that reflect the real difficulties they are experiencing? The claim the students unions make is that the charge is used to shore up the tuition grant. How do the universities respond to that?

Professor John Hughes

The colleges the Acting Chairman mentioned are not universities.

Acting Chairman

I appreciate that but they are also tackling the same issues.

Professor John Hughes

Universities are varied with different histories and ways of organising their services for students. That is why differences appear in the tables. In my institution, because it is relatively small, many student services are driven through the registry. That is why registration charges are high and we feel that is justifiable.

These figures have been examined by the Comptroller and Auditor General over seven years. His office is happy——

Acting Chairman

I do not accept that because, as Deputy Brian Hayes noted earlier, if one can classify a library as a student service when it is a core teaching service then figures are being doctored to defend the Minister who is not providing the universities with adequate funding.

Professor John Hughes

I would not dispute the view that the Minister is not providing us with adequate funding.

Acting Chairman

However, you are not putting your case sufficiently aggressively to change the situation.

Professor John Hughes

I am sorry, but we have been pushing the case for reform of the higher educational funding system for several years. It is in our submission to the higher education review forum and has been included in multiple submissions, not just to the present Minister, but to his predecessors. We have been pushing for a change from annual funding towards greater consistency. Obviously, we have pushed for increased funding and grants.

Acting Chairman

This set of accounts does not adequately reflect this when, for instance, "Library" is included under student services.

Mr. Tom Boland

The Minister and the Government provide in the order of €2 billion annually for higher education, so it is a very large bill. The student service charge we are talking about is somewhat less than €100 million in total that is being collected, although the presidents may contradict me on this, so it is a small part of a very large budget. Resourcing of higher education is a very live issue and it is being considered by the national strategy group.

One of the difficulties in this discussion is that one has to go back to the abolition of tuition fees. Prior to that there was a charge. At the time of abolition a decision was taken by the then Minister in Government to disaggregate that charge into tuition and non-tuition fees, which has become, to some extent in the short term, student services. It is quite clear from the framework developed between the HEA and the institutions in 1996 that "student services" was intended to be far more than what is commonly understood — such as students' union clubs and societies, which were particularised as an example of what student services should be. However, it represented a much broader basket of activities——

Deputy Brian Hayes

Including libraries.

Mr. Tom Boland

They are not excluded, I can assure the Deputy — by the acceptance that libraries are absolutely essential to the education process in a university.

Acting Chairman

They are at the core.

Mr. Tom Boland

The definition does not exclude libraries, so it is an issue of tuition fees, specifically, that are paid for by the State, and everything else.

Acting Chairman

Can I just ask Professor Don Barry, president of the University of Limerick, before I bring in Deputy Hayes, how he regards the figures as submitted by Mary Immaculate College?

Professor Don Barry

I have no knowledge of the figures as submitted by Mary Immaculate College.

Acting Chairman

Is it not one of UL's constituent colleges?

Professor Don Barry

It is a financially independent third level institution, with its own governing authority to approve its budget, in the same way as the governing authority of the University of Limerick approves that institution's budget. I have not seen its budgetary documents at any time.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Could the IUA and each of the universities explain to the committee one of these expenditure items that I find it hard to get my head around, namely, space costs associated with all student services. I see the provost of Trinity College Dublin, Professor John Hegarty here and the president of University College Dublin, Dr. Hugh Brady. The space costs associated with all student service facilities for 2008-09 was €5.8 million in the case of UCD and €6.4 million for TCD. I have been informed by the relevant colleges that in the previous year the space costs figure for UCD was €1.7 million and €1.5 million for TCD. How did this radical jump come about? Did 40,000 Chinese students arrive in the college square one day and were all charged, per head? What happened to explain this radical increase in space costs?

Professor John Hegarty

Could I first make a comment?

Acting Chairman

I think so, yes, since you have been trying to come in for quite some time.

Professor John Hegarty

I just want to put this in context. The discussion focused on the core versus the student charge. There is no doubt that they are linked, in practice, as we have seen and so some clarification at high level is needed, not just in terms of definition but perhaps, also, as regards terminology. I am talking about policy.

We are being faced with trying to manage an overall institution that encompasses many facets. It embraces teaching, the student experience, and the services, direct and indirect, that make all that possible, including research. We are trying to make the whole of that work using all the sources of funding. The expectation for such a publicly funded institution is that we should get maximum value out of the totality of that, rather than ringfencing various parts, and I believe that is right.

Because of the de facto connection between the various parts of the Exchequer funding, a complete overhaul is necessary. Before we get into the details of whether something is a tuition or non-tuition charge or a student service charge, we need to define the overall context. The difficulty is that one can get into Jesuitical distinctions between what is tuition and what is not tuition. For example, should a lecturer’s time come under the heading, tuition? Lecturers are involved in the pastoral care of students as well as giving lectures, so how is this to be handled? It is not clear to me.

We have to handle the integration of all that and deliver the best overall service possible. At a contextual policy level, to look at how the whole system is funded, connecting the various sources, Exchequer, non-Exchequer, whatever private contributions come from students and have a coherence between all of those would make sense. Within the Exchequer parts, having total coherence between those would make sense, as well, from our viewpoint.

I would recommend that from the operational standpoint of one institution. As regards space, we charge every occupier as an accounting procedure for the space he or she uses.

Deputy Paul Gogarty resumed the Chair.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Is it not a radical increase in a year?

Professor John Hegarty

If one includes the library, one goes back to what is included or not. We have a massive library, which occupies a large space——

Deputy Brian Hayes

That was not part of the books figure.

Professor John Hegarty

If the library is included it accounts for a great deal of space, yes.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Of course.

Professor John Hegarty

That is why I say the issue that needs clarification is what should or should not be included. That has to happen within an integrated policy rather than taking the current system----

Deputy Brian Hayes

From the Provost's perspective, should the clarification be done through the HEA or the Minister, or has TCD a hands off approach to this?

Professor John Hegarty

From our viewpoint we are looking to the HEA, which is the body we deal with on a day to day basis.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

The Government stands firmly behind it.

Professor John Hegarty

The Government is there as well, the rest of the Government, that is.

Chairman

We shall hear from Dr. Brady as well, now.

Dr. Hugh Brady

The Deputy's numbers do not tally with mine.

Deputy Brian Hayes

That is certainly the case.

Dr. Hugh Brady

What we present internally within UCD are the micro-details of the expenditure items relating to the various categories, but we are more than willing to present a much more granular detailed breakdown of each item of expenditure. We will then relate them to the overarching table that has been presented here and how they relate to section 40 of the Act. As Professor Hughes said, different items will be noted differently in different institutions.

It behoves us all to move back to the big picture. The reality is that Ireland Inc. needs a world class higher education system. To do that, we need to be able to keep our best students. It is now documented that the UK universities are actively recruiting our best students. To keep our best students, we need the best staff, the best tuition and the other services that go with that. The holistic student experience is something on which the UK universities play when they are marketing to our students. If we do not have these conditions, we will not keep the best students or the best lecturers and Ireland will be the loser. There is a quantum of funding required to do that. At the moment, the overall quantum of funding is too low.

The funding comes essentially from four sources — our core grant and grant in lieu of fees, the student fee, commercial income such as overseas income, and philanthropic income. Irish undergraduate students benefit from all of those categories. In UCD, we would not be building a new law school in the middle of a recession were it not for philanthropy. We invest in the development and function of the university, so students benefit from each category of funding. My worry is that we are playing with definitions. Fees exist in Ireland and this is a non-tuition fee.

Deputy Brian Hayes

That is the first time that has been admitted so explicitly.

Dr. Hugh Brady

Let us collectively admit that, but let us now deal with the quantum of funding and how we achieve that. We have consistently argued the case, going back to the OECD review of higher education in 2004 and 2005, that the current funding model is inadequate and have outlined the consequences for the country in failing to grasp the nettle. It behoves us to take that view. We then get down to the Exchequer contribution and the private contribution.

Chairman

We are going to move on, because Senator Healy Eames has two more questions and Professor Murphy has indicated a wish to speak. Is it on that issue?

Professor Michael Murphy

UCC endorses the analysis provided by Professor John Hughes and Professor John Hegarty on the absolute necessity and urgency to reform the funding of the Irish universities. To give an external perception of our position, I will quote from an elaborate analysis of the global funding of our education system, which was published two years ago. The report stated that various countries have introduced tuition fees, such as the UK, Portugal and so on, as well as "fees, not yet acknowledged to be tuition fees in Ireland". The global perspective of our position is a realistic perspective. It expresses the position we are really in.

We had many potholes on campus after the harsh winter, and I had to try to adjudicate whether the costs of filling them should be regarded as a service to students to prevent them from injuring themselves, or a core function of the university. The media like questions to be framed in that sense.

Chairman

That depends on who has use of the car parking spaces.

Professor Michael Murphy

It is an example of the unsatisfactory nature of our position that can be understood by the general population.

Mr. Tom Boland

There has never been any debate but that there is a charge or a fee. The only statement ever made by the HEA or by the Government is that undergraduate tuition fees are paid by the State.

Chairman

Thank you for that clarification. There is an agreement on one thing, namely, that reform of the system is needed, whether it is from students, university heads, the Government or Opposition Members. We are still disagreeing on other things.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

This meeting is helpful. We now have clarity that fees exist for students in Ireland. The comment by Professor John Hegarty that core charges and student services are linked is very useful, because it is the fairest explanation. Due to the lack of adequate core funding to the universities, our students are still suffering more and paying more, which means parents are paying more, even in the form of extra levies. I understand that in UCD, students are now being asked to pay when visiting the health centre. In NUIG, an extra €200 must be paid to participate in the sports centre. This is not fair. If core and student services are linked, that justifies the moving of the figures, but it prevents the problem from being solved.

Is it the case that students must now pay a charge at UCD to visit the health centre?

Dr. Hugh Brady

That is right. There is a charge for health services, but no charge for counselling.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

How come health services are not covered by the student service charge?

Dr. Hugh Brady

We would like to be able to afford to pay for health, but it comes back to the overall quantum funding, and these are the tough decisions that we must make. The quantum of funding per student in Irish universities does not approach that of our UK competitors, who do not just have a state grant, but also contribute top up fees.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I understand the HEA is asking the universities to classify the various posts. The student service charge is not funded by the Exchequer. Why does the funding for the post of counsellor or somebody in pastoral care specifically serving students not come out of the student service charge, rather than the classification in the framework? Universities may favour academic staff over the student counsellor.

Mr. Tom Boland

There is flexibility at university level to decide which posts to fill. There was a previous arrangement whereby they could not do so. The student service charge, as well articulated by several presidents already, is seen as a central element of the core funding of the institutions. That is the reason.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Is guidance given by the HEA on this issue to the universities?

Mr. Tom Boland

The question was specifically asked and answered in a way that the student service charge would not be seen as private funding for the university.

Chairman

I will come in at this stage as I have not had an opportunity to speak. My first question is for Mr. Tom Boland. Can he remember a meeting with Mr. Peter Mannion, president of the USI, and Gary Redmond, president of UCD students union, in early December?

Mr. Tom Boland

Yes.

Chairman

Did he state at that meeting that he accepted that a library could not be classified as a student service?

Mr. Tom Boland

I do not recall specifically doing so but I may well have done. What I am saying in response to——

Chairman

How does that square with his more recent comments?

Mr. Tom Boland

What I am saying is that, in principle, it could. My own view might well be that but, in principle, under the framework, there is absolutely nothing to exclude it.

Chairman

Under the framework. We know that. Section 40——

Mr. Tom Boland

While I cannot recall the precise meeting, the point I would have been making, as I believe I have made here already, is that a library is essential to the education process in which a university engages.

Chairman

Absolutely, but we are trying to get to nub of the question. If the library is so essential — for example, Trinity College's library is hundreds of years old — how is it that library services are only being charged for now? What is the rationale behind that?

Mr. Boland may be aware of some of the figures sent in by students from Trinity and UCD before Christmas, which are quite telling. Before Christmas, the Trinity students stated that of the €900 — as opposed to the €1,500 — in the year in question, only €537.25 was being spent on student services, the rest being charged under the term "a reduction in the State grant". Those figures which were sent in by Trinity students were requested by them from the college. Now, however, magically and out of thin air, the income per student is €900. I ask both Mr. Boland and Professor Hegarty how they can square the fact that in one report given to the students, the cost of student services was €537.25, while the updated report has a student charge of €900.

I put it to them that there is some element of cooking of the books to square the figures and that library charges and other space charges are being introduced to make the figures add up.

Mr. Tom Boland

The presidents can give their view. My understanding, and the figures would support this, is that the student service charge which is now €1,500 does not even now fund the entire range of services that can be comprehended as student services. Therefore, it is not at all unreasonable that for accounting or practical purposes, as the charge increases, more and more of the student services are referred to it.

Deputy Brian Hayes

The student charge changes year by year. That is the problem.

Mr. Tom Boland

Not necessarily. There is no definition in the sense of what a student service is, quite deliberately.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

It is a moveable feast.

Mr. Tom Boland

Some 12 years ago, the decision was taken not to do it.

Chairman

Is it not the case, Professor Hegarty, that the totting up of the cost of student services did not include libraries until very recently?

Professor John Hegarty

The Chairman referred to the breakdown of the €900 and the €537——

Chairman

That is a separate issue, which relates to the reduction in the State grant, which is now termed a student service. I want to ask the Professor about that but I also want to ask a general question to all the heads of universities. If library charges are now included, why were they not included before?

Professor John Hegarty

It goes back to my question of what defines a student service versus other services in the college.

Chairman

It is more a question of what defines the definition of a student service because it is the definition that has changed. It seems to be an arbitrary change to add up the money.

Professor John Hegarty

There is a whole range of services in a university. The question is to whom those services are delivered. The students are at the core of the university so, in a sense — this is an indirect argument — every action of the university is geared towards students; it is why we exist. The front line services are the issue. Previously, there was a subset of student services that corresponded to the student charge but, as I said, the connection between the increase in that charge and the core grant going down simultaneously is not accidental. They accompanied each other and were linked directly. The core grant never supported activities that did not include student services.

Chairman

At the time, the university was not defining those activities as student services but it is now.

Professor John Hegarty

Yes.

Chairman

In essence, therefore, what is happening is that the core grant has gone down, so the university has decided, in order to justify the registration fee increase, to allocate more of it to student services to pay for the library, for which it was not previously charging. It is entitled to do that under the Act but let us be straight about it and accept that this is what is actually happening and is why there is a discrepancy in the books. Professor Von Prondzynski wants to come in but I will come back to this point.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

That is why they have to pay for health and sport.

Professor Ferdinand Von Prondzynski

There is an undercurrent in the discussion that suggests some kind of improper accounting practice has been taking place over a number of years. It is important to point out that this is not the case.

The student services charge was introduced a long time ago, in 1996, I believe. There could be an interesting political analysis as to why that happened but, once it was introduced, the kind of development which has happened was always inevitable. This goes right back to the root of the concept. When it was first introduced, it was a relatively minor sum of money and, at that time, even allowing for inflation, it would have been unrealistic to attribute to the student services charge, as it then existed, support for the whole range of student services. It was not big enough to do that.

Over a period of years, for political reasons, Governments — I say "Governments" because we have no input into this at all — have adjusted both the fee levels and the level of the student services charge. As that happens, it is inevitable that we would look at how we are distributing the income from these two sources. It is an inevitability — if one goes down and the other goes up, one will have to redistribute. In that context, however, we are always looking at what constitutes a student service and what does not. We have not redefined that; the sums have changed. As a result of the sums changing, the moneys have to be distributed differently. However, at no point, either in the past or now, has income from the student services charge been used for items that are not student services.

Clearly, if one has a student service charge of, say, €200 or whatever very low figure, one would not be including libraries in that because it is irrelevant and would not be big enough to support that kind of service. As the student service charge increases, one redistributes. However, there has not been a change of definition, nor has there been any improper accounting practice, which is an undercurrent of the discussion. It is important to make that point. We have all said, and I have said publicly in the media, on a blog and elsewhere, that this is an unacceptable position. I am not trying to defend it. It is completely unacceptable. It is a fee — incidentally, that is not something we have said for the first time today, as we have said it before. Moreover, the position we are being put in is not acceptable. I have some sympathy for the student view in this but we are in the position we are in. We are not in control of this agenda.

Chairman

To address Professor Hegarty, I understand the student charge now includes animal research. I would assume that some of that animal research would be of a commercial nature. How can Professor Hegarty square animal research being integrated into a student charge?

Professor John Hegarty

It is not. I will go back to the point I made that when one is trying to manage an overall institution, every part of that institution is important to the whole institution. It is not a separate activity that is disconnected. Everybody in the institution gains from all of those activities. There is in our case some tweaking to be done as to what is a definition of a student service. This is where one gets into the Jesuitical problem that results from the wrong context. I would go back to say that if we can clarify what exactly we are talking about, terminology and policy, then we can ——

Chairman

That is being Jesuitical because animal research was not always included as part of student services.

Professor John Hegarty

Yes, and neither was a library.

Chairman

The point has been made about the library that there has been an increase in registration and the university is still providing services. I will call the library a student service because it always was one and this money will cover that. Why has there been a sudden change into animal research as this is a little bit left of centre, to be honest?

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Are other students engaging in animal research?

Professor John Hegarty

No.

Chairman

I would say a few of them would protest against animal research, to be quite honest.

Professor John Hegarty

There is a facility there which provides samples for undergraduate teaching labs.

Chairman

So they are only being charged for the samples.

Professor John Hegarty

Now we are getting into details——

Chairman

We need to get into these details. There is a fundamental need to overhaul the system and the way it is funded. When seemingly arbitrary new student support charges are being introduced, we really need to clean the whole system and straighten it out because there is a clear differentiation between what the students in the colleges are reporting about student charges and what the university heads and the IUA are now saying. It needs to be clarified. It is not with malice that members are asking these questions but it seems somewhat farcical and this is the reason we have to get Jesuitical about it, to be quite honest.

Deputy Beverley Flynn

I wish to take up the point made by the president of DCU about the change in student services as a result of the increase in the student charge. As of January 2010, is there a common full list for all universities as to what is included in the student service charge? I understand the point that if there is only €200 to spend, it cannot include everything but is there a checklist common to all the universities of what is included as from January 2010?

I refer to the consultation process with the students. It was mentioned in the presentation that there is a number of fora and a range of committees in which the students are consulted on how the charge would be spent. Are the minutes of these meetings available or were minutes taken? I ask for details of those committees. Were proposals made by the student body which were not accepted at these various committees? I am trying to get an understanding of the reason there is such disgruntlement among students and the reason they were in a position to write a letter in which they seemed to indicate they were not being consulted on how the available money is being disbursed within the various colleges.

How is the mean charge, the spend per student calculated? In 2008 and 2009 the fee was €900 but the spend per student was substantially in excess of this. When the fee was increased to €1,500 last year, the mean charge was €1,600. What formula was used by the universities to calculate that mean charge? What was included and not included? While the presentation does not specifically mention the mean charge for 2008, I would like that information because it seems to indicate a substantial increase between 2008 and 2009 and I wonder if this was as a result of a formula change.

On the point about sensitivity shown to students when grants and fees have not been paid on time, I ask for details on how this sensitivity is demonstrated. Were all students allowed sit exams? Was pressure applied to students to get the necessary money? I have anecdotal evidence from people in my constituency that a great deal of pressure was put on students to come up with the moneys and that they were not allowed sit exams in some cases. I ask for clarification on this point.

Chairman

I will allow the Senator to speak for 30 seconds on the same points.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I understand from the Union of Students in Ireland that 6,000 grants have not yet been paid and the union understands that this amount of registration fees are also likely not to be paid. What is the effect of this on the students in the colleges and how are the colleges supporting the students? I ask the representatives of each college to answer this question. Are they allowing those students attend the library, use the computer systems and the labs? How many of these students have failed their first set of exams as a result of their education being compromised? This is the information I am getting. I see the need for universities to be far more supportive. The fact that the Government is not paying——

Chairman

I have to stop the Senator because she is asking other questions. I am asking for related questions and I think her point has been made.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I am asking about the overall point.

Chairman

I will take Deputy Quinn's questions and then Senator Healy Eames's related questions.

Dr. James J. Browne

In answer to Senator Healy Eames's question and with regard to NUI Galway, the student union came to the finance committee last November and asked that students not be penalised because their fees had not been paid by the local authorities and we agreed to that request. As a result of that decision by the finance committee in November, we decided that no action will be taken until next February.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Does this mean every student is allowed access to computers, labs and library? Is that true?

Dr. James J. Browne

Absolutely. They have full availability to everything. Students in Galway whose fees have not been paid because of local authority delay in payment, have suffered no impact. That is a decision of the finance committee of the governing authority.

Chairman

For time reasons I do not propose to ask each individual college but if a college does not allow students to access services I ask the representative to speak up and give a reason. I ask for a response to the other questions asked by Deputy Flynn.

Professor John Hughes

All the universities have taken a very sensitive approach. For example, the universities will take a verbal assurance from local authorities that grants will be provided as sufficient evidence to allow the student full access to facilities.

Deputy John O’Mahony

A verbal assurance?

Professor John Hughes

There would be a verbal commitment over the telephone or by fax that a grant is available to the student but has not yet been processed. If we get that assurance then the student is allowed full access. There are also many other considerations.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Based on the sensitivity of the college.

Professor John Hughes

One cannot have a situation where a student is allowed complete access where there is no commitment or assurance that the grant will come.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

That is not what Professor Browne said.

Deputy Beverley Flynn

I know of cases where students have had to get written confirmation from the grant-giving authority that the grant was forthcoming.

Professor John Hughes

There will be differences across the institutions. Financial prudence must enter into it. We cannot have a situation where students are on campus and we are not sure whether——

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

These are students under pressure. If a student is under pressure he or she will not learn and will not perform effectively.

Professor John Hughes

I am afraid so, but the pressure is coming from the fact that they are not getting their grants and we have no control over that.

Chairman

Is it the case that once evidence is given that a student is not getting a grant then all efforts are being made by each of the seven colleges to ensure they still have access to services?

Professor John Hughes

That is correct.

Chairman

That clarifies the situation.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Is Deputy Flynn happy that her questions were answered?

Professor John Hughes

On the question about consultation raised by Deputy Flynn, I have emphasised this point on several occasions. I will outline the position of NUI Maynooth in terms of consultation with the students on the spending of the student services charge. What happens in Maynooth is that shortly after the students' union officers are elected annually, a formal meeting takes place between the elected officers of the union and staff in the bursar's office, including the bursar. The agreed note to the annual accounts which relates to the student services charge is discussed and the expenditure for the previous year is noted and the detail of that expenditure is noted. This meeting then allows the elected student officers to outline their priorities for the year and to list any improvements they wish to see in the expenditure of the charge. The bursar's office is then in a position to take account of these items in the annual budget-setting process. In the case of NUI Maynooth, this budget-setting process then goes to the planning, development and finance committee which has a student representative, normally the students' union president. This then goes to the governing authority which has three student representatives, two undergraduates represented by the president and the vice president of the union and a postgraduate representative. The accounts are then signed off by the governing authority. The involvement is there from a very early stage right through to the governing authority.

Deputy Beverley Flynn

Are views taken on board by the governing body stage which has student representatives? Are the students' proposals rejected because I presume they do not have a majority at every step along the way?

Professor John Hughes

They are involved from a very early stage so they can make suggestions as to the use of the charge. When it gets to the governing authority, quite frankly, one is dealing with a higher level aspect of the overall budget for the university. While the governing authority would not get into such detail, in the case of Maynooth there are three student representatives on the governing authority out of 29, which is not insignificant and they make their views known.

Deputy Beverley Flynn

I presume that minutes are taken of all those meetings.

Professor John Hughes

Yes.

Deputy Beverley Flynn

If they object, I presume it always is recorded.

Professor John Hughes

Of course.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Although a discussion is taking place between members, the HEA and the university presidents, as the key person is not present it is like Hamlet without the prince. I refer to the Minister for Education and Science who is the paymaster general in this regard. He decides what the Estimates will be and sets up the rules the witnesses are obliged to follow. However, I again come to the conclusion, as the Chairman himself noted, that the manner in which this system is put in place must be reformed. I understand the dilemma in which the universities find themselves and this is the reason a resolution must be found. This meeting has spent much time trying to define student service charges. How would Mr. Boland define tuition fees?

Mr. Tom Boland

Equally, there is no definition of a tuition fee and I certainly will not attempt one in the next 30 seconds.

Deputy Brian Hayes

However, taxpayers pay this fee, the average cost of which is €4,500. Is this correct?

Mr. Tom Boland

While I am not aware that a definition exists, I assume the obvious charge might pertain to the teaching time of a lecturer. However, I genuinely do not think it is——

Deputy Brian Hayes

There is no absolute definition of tuition fees.

Mr. Tom Boland

I do not believe so.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Moreover, there is a highly flexible definition of student registration fees. Does Mr. Boland agree this constitutes quite a can of worms?

Mr. Tom Boland

There are costs associated with tuition that universities can and do identify because there a specific tuition fee exists for each programme that the Government pays. It varies from something more than €4,000 for arts to approximately €10,000 for medicine. Consequently, there is a tuition fee.

Deputy Brian Hayes

What does one get for that?

Mr. Tom Boland

Tuition.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Yet no one can define it.

Mr. Tom Boland

In its essence, it means teaching.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Whose job does Mr. Boland consider this to be? If one leaves the universities aside for a moment, I find it difficult to understand the exact role of the HEA in all this. It is supposed to be the consumer watchdog and Mr. Boland is the person who is meant to be advising the Minister but he appears to be completely unable to do anything because all the institutions are independent and can do as they wish.

Mr. Tom Boland

May I ask what the Deputy would have us do in this particular situation? The issue is——

Deputy Brian Hayes

The HEA could go away and abolish itself.

Mr. Tom Boland

This issue pertains to the funding of higher education. On a number of occasions, the HEA has stated — I believe it is a common case with the Minister — that higher education requires additional resources and different ways of being resourced. The Minister now has referred the matter to the national strategy group on higher education, which is where it rests. Moreover, when the Deputy suggests that the Minister as paymaster general decides on the Estimates, the Deputy is well aware that he does so in the context of an overall Government process. This process is where that negotiation takes place as to how much is available for higher education.

Deputy Brian Hayes

I wish to revert to the issue of pay to which I referred earlier. I may have inadvertently misled the committee by suggesting that a formal request was sent to the university presidents, as this was not the case. However, I wish to quote from an article published in The Irish Times on 19 September last. It noted that the Minister, Deputy Batt O’Keeffe, expressed disappointment at the stance taken by the presidents who earn up to €273,000 per year. He stated ”I would have exhorted the university presidents to take the appropriate cut“. That is the Minister getting tough. He went on to state ”One would have expected that people in such senior positions would do the right thing“. The article continued by stating ”The Minister said that while he had made no formal written request to the presidents, [mea culpa] the ... HEA was aware of his views and had no doubt conveyed to them to the college heads”. Did that happen?

Mr. Tom Boland

No.

Deputy Brian Hayes

In other words, the Minister is spinning furiously. He is talking tough to the effect that he will take on the university heads for 10% here and 15% there. He then spins out in public, while expecting the HEA to do his dirty work for him, and the article remains in place.

Mr. Tom Boland

I was not aware of that particular statement until this moment but there certainly has been no formal communication to the university presidents on the issue of a voluntary pay cut.

Deputy Brian Hayes

The Minister was aware and had no doubt but that the HEA would convey this to the college heads.

Mr. Tom Boland

Then perhaps the HEA has been remiss in not so doing.

Deputy Brian Hayes

The aforementioned article later stated that "privately, some university presidents are said to be furious about the Minister's comments". Does anyone wish to comment? This would be a public opportunity to so do.

Chairman

Did a formal or informal request come from the Minister asking Mr. Boland to convey his views to the university heads?

Mr. Tom Boland

No.

Chairman

That clarifies that matter.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Mr. Boland has answered all members' questions honestly and truthfully today, as have all the university presidents. Huge questions remain for the Minister and his spinning operation that he must answer before the joint committee.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

May I revert to the question of consultation with students? Obviously this meeting is taking place because students have been unhappy and have been lobbying members furiously. All these matters are coming out in the wash because of the investigative work performed by the Union of Students in Ireland in the various colleges. This point is quite significant. I understand that for 14 months, no student representative in NUI Galway has been directly involved in overseeing fund allocation or allocation for the registration fee. Dr. Browne should explain the reason this is the case and should respond to the charge that this lacks transparency.

Dr. James J. Browne

I believe it is not a fair representation of the situation. The university, NUI Galway, has a new governing authority as of January 2009. The university is going through a major reformation and has done so in respect of its management structures by creating a new university management team. It also has decided to try to ensure good governance by bringing clarity to the issue of governance and management and separation of the two. In that context, the university has decided to cut back on the number of committees of governing authority. We had in excess of 35 such committees, which frankly is impossible. We now are trying to put together four to five strong committees, all of which have student representation. The final committee has just been constituted. It is an operations committee, which brings together all the various non-academic activities, that is, everything from human resources, through buildings, through student services. This committee will have sub-committees and will oversee the complete range of services to the university community and now is in place. In the meantime, the vice president for student services has worked constantly and productively with the student union and there has been complete consultation. For example, I mentioned a few moments ago that the finance committee of the governing authority decided last November to deal with the issues of the delay in payments from local authorities at the behest of student representatives.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

This is coincidental, rather than being deliberate.

Dr. James J. Browne

It is not deliberate. In a sense, it is a transitional situation and I am very proud of the relationship we have as a university management team with our student union. In addition, I am highly positive about the impact the student representatives have had on the university at all levels, including the governing authority.

Chairman

On that issue, I wish to cite the framework for good practice drawn up in 1998. The working group "recommends that each institution should have a central forum on which students are well represented, which would be consulted by college authorities in relation to the proposed disposition of the allocated funding for student services". In addition, I wish to highlight that it notes the "working group would stress the need for a substantial student representation on such a body ... and that the forum should hold meetings at least once a term and others as deemed necessary". Having received detailed feedback from a number of student bodies nationwide, they beg to differ. They argue that several individual universities are in breach of the framework for good practice. During my absence for a vote in the Dáil, I understand that some witnesses stated that student representation is widespread and that adequate consultation is taking place with regard to input into student services. I understand that in Trinity College, a single student representative sits on the finance and student services committees. Tellingly however, the disbursement of the student services charge is not adjudicated on by either committee. In fact, the students in Trinity are at a loss to figure out who exactly decides on this issue because no student ever has been consulted about it. I note that UCD, UCC, NUI Galway and the University of Limerick have put forward similar cases. While I am unsure of the position in respect of Dublin City University or Maynooth, it is certain that in several colleges, students do not appear to be represented, which would be in breach of the framework for good practice.

I have a further question for anyone who would like to answer. Under section 40, a university may determine and charge fees if they account for student registration, etc. Perhaps I should drink before I choke, although some people would prefer if I choked before I drank.

Deputy Brian Hayes

The Chairman is being too hard on himself.

Chairman

Given the fact that a college is the only entity that can set charges under the Act and that, according to students, they are on certain committees but not those that adjudicate on charges, I would like to ask the heads of Trinity and UCD in particular, but anyone else who would also like to answer, which body inside their respective colleges made the decision to classify libraries as student services and when were students consulted and, presumably, outvoted. Students are contending that they were not consulted. I would like a detailed response.

Deputy Beverley Flynn

Before anyone answers, if what the Chairman says is true, I am unhappy with the response to my question on consultation. In good faith, Professor Hughes answered it on behalf of Maynooth, but everyone else remained silent. I understood that his answer was representative of the colleges in attendance. If it was not, they should have stated that students were not represented in the decision making in respect of the disbursal instead of giving the impression that Professor Hughes's answer was representative. If what the Chairman is saying is true, each university must answer for itself.

Chairman

I was just referring to a case put forward by students. I do not know whether it is true. Perhaps Professor Hegarty could clarify the matter in respect of Trinity.

Professor John Hegarty

It is true that students are represented on every committee in all universities.

Chairman

Including the committee that sets the charges?

Professor John Hegarty

They are represented on all of the main committees in Trinity of which I know and that are relevant to this matter. They will shortly be going through the estimates for 2010. The formal and informal procedures involved are long. The head of our finance function, the treasurer, and that office gather all of the information about what commitments there are for the coming year.

Chairman

So the head of finance does it and does not ask the students.

Professor John Hegarty

No. The function of the office is to gather all of the commitments for next year. Usually, the treasurer talks informally with the president of the student union and the dean of students.

Chairman

Informally.

Professor John Hegarty

The student services committee covers the range of services we have been discussing.

Chairman

The disbursement of student services is not within the remit of that committee.

Professor John Hegarty

The finance committee agrees the allocation of all resources.

Chairman

Are students represented on it?

Professor John Hegarty

Yes. The board is the ultimate authority on all matters. Every year, there is a special board meeting on the past year's financial statements. There is a separate board meeting to handle the coming year's estimates. A large pile of information is tabled and dealt with at the latter meeting in considerable detail.

Chairman

To clarify, Professor Hegarty was asked whether student representatives have direct input into how the student services charge is distributed. His answer was "Yes".

Professor John Hegarty

Yes. There is also a mechanism for every sector of the college to make proposals for additional funding for special purposes and so on. We receive proposals every year and they are processed through the committee structure. Even though last year was a tough one, the college allocated an extra €1 million to student services, including those in the subgroup mentioned earlier. That was a special allocation.

Chairman

Is it normally the case in such discussions that, where there is disagreement, a vote is taken? Does Professor Hegarty have any recollection of a vote being taken on whether to include a library in what is defined as a student service? If so, it should have been recorded in the minutes, as should whether students voted for or against the proposal. Is there any written documentation to that effect?

Professor John Hegarty

All of our committees usually work by consensus as the best form of democracy. It is also the best form of engagement for everyone in the college. We target consensus and, by and large, it has delivered for us. If there is no consensus, we re-examine the situation. The process can be lengthy and cover several committee meetings and intervening formal and informal activities. It is a complex process of deciding the estimates for the coming year and reviewing the past year's finances.

Chairman

Are all decisions on such matters taken by consensus?

Professor John Hegarty

We try to reach a consensus. In my experience of eight and a half years of chairing the board of the college, we have had one vote.

Chairman

Perhaps I am wrong, but I would assume that, in the case of libraries being added, constituting a colossal amount, students would object. If they did, it would have been taken to a vote. However, Professor Hegarty is stating that the student representatives were happy to go along with the change to the definition.

Professor John Hegarty

The Chairman is referring to the library.

Chairman

Professor Hegarty stated the decision was taken by the finance committee.

Professor John Hegarty

The board, as ultimate decision maker, has ultimate responsibility for all decisions.

Chairman

The board made the decision on the library. Are students on the board?

Professor John Hegarty

Four student representatives are on the board.

Chairman

How many people are on the board?

Professor John Hegarty

There are 28 on the board.

Chairman

The board would also make decisions consensually.

Professor John Hegarty

That is what we try to do. If there are serious issues, we re-examine them.

Chairman

According to Professor Hegarty, the board's four student representatives consented to the inclusion of the library in the definition of student services.

Professor John Hegarty

We will be going through the process this year.

Chairman

We are more interested in previous years. Will the coming year be the first in respect of which the process will be undertaken?

Professor John Hegarty

It reverts to the question of whether one defines a library as a student service.

Chairman

Since when have libraries been defined as a student service?

Professor John Hegarty

I have always seen a library as a student service. I could not have seen it otherwise.

Chairman

When were libraries taken into the accounting?

Professor John Hegarty

They have always been in the accounting. The question is whether they are accounted for in the particular slice that is the student charge.

Chairman

That is what I am asking. How long have library services been covered under the registration charge? Was the decision to do so consensual on the part of students?

Professor John Hegarty

That would be this year.

Chairman

Students have already signed up to the process for this year.

Professor John Hegarty

For 2010, the estimates for which are coming. We do not have a budget for this year yet.

Chairman

Is Professor Hegarty stating that it is only a proposal and has not yet occurred?

Professor John Hegarty

Yes, but——

Chairman

Then a consensus has not yet been reached.

Professor John Hegarty

How could the library be other than——

Chairman

We know that the library is a cost and a student service, but it has only recently been defined as a student service in terms of the allocation of the registration fee. I gather from Professor Hegarty that a final decision has not been made as to whether to include libraries.

Professor John Hegarty

That is right.

Chairman

We have not had a final decision, so students may still be involved in the process. If they are not in agreement, a vote would need to be taken and their dissenting votes recorded.

Professor John Hegarty

One cannot address that particular block of money on its own, as the core grant is connected with the student charge. If one did, what would happen to the rest of the college's services?

Chairman

Surely the students would sign up to and acknowledge that the drop in the core grant must be addressed. However, I am still not clear. A while ago, it seemed as if students had already signed up to the proposal and that decisions had already been made. Now Professor Hegarty is saying a decision has not been made. The issue is whether the board will make the decision. Students are on the board but no decision has been made.

Professor John Hegarty

We have not had the estimates for this year yet.

Chairman

Who put forward the proposal and who decided to put forward a proposal?

Professor John Hegarty

The process is beginning now.

Chairman

How come it is here? Someone must have proposed it and suggested this was the way to include it. Were students consulted about this?

Professor John Hegarty

The library is a student service.

Chairman

It was designated a student service very recently for the purposes of the registration fee. Who decided to include it as part of the package? Were students consulted on this? Was a meeting held and was consensus reached?

Professor John Hegarty

It is a matter of how one interprets the increase in the student charge.

Chairman

Did students sign up and discuss that interpretation and the change in interpretation?

Professor John Hegarty

We discussed the student charge and the increase in the student charge at the board last year.

Chairman

Did Professor Hegarty discuss changing the definition so that libraries are now included in the remit of the registration fee?

Professor John Hegarty

We discussed the need to broaden this.

Chairman

Were libraries specifically mentioned? Did students have a discussion on this and consensually agree to it?

Professor John Hegarty

Yes, a letter was sent to every student at the beginning of this academic year informing them that the student charge now covers a wider range of student services than had been defined.

Chairman

We may need to hear further from the students on this matter. A number of people, including Dr. Browne and Professor Von Prondzynski, want to contribute again.

Dr. James J. Browne

In the case of Galway the following happened. The Minister announced an increase in the registration charge sometime last summer. The student union came to the finance committee and objected to us agreeing that increase. I understand this from the point of view of the student union. The case was made to the finance committee. The decision was made earlier last year. I am not certain of the time it was made but my memory is that the finance committee met at the time of the announcement by the Minister and the university had to agree the registration fee. The finance committee was asked to disagree with this by the student union, a discussion took place, the student union made its case and a decision was taken by the finance committee, which includes university management and all members of Údarás na hOllscoile, the governing authority. The decision was made without the support of the student union. We understood that.

In making the decision we understood that we would construct a budget for the following year. The budget does not differentiate sources of income. It simply presents income and presents an expenditure pattern. When we saw the registration fee increasing we saw a corresponding reduction in the block grant and a total emerging to be allocated across the university. That is how it was done, by agreement. To be fair to the student union, it rightly — from its point of view — made the case against increasing registration fees. Once that increase was accepted by the governing authority, through the finance committee, against the objection of the student union, the governing authority worked through the budget. The student union had full access to all discussions and papers on the budget and consented in that sense to the decisions made by the governing authority.

Chairman

Did the student union have an input into whether libraries were to be defined as part of the registration fee?

Dr. James J. Browne

To be frank with the Chairman, I do not think the question was put. The governing authority, through its finance committee, creates a budget for the university. It considers income and expenditure. We do not allocate income to particular sources of expenditure. We have now done that in the past number of years at the request of the HEA.

Chairman

Were students involved in the decision to do that?

Dr. James J. Browne

The allocation of expenditure is a matter for executives in the accounts office.

Chairman

It is not for students.

Dr. James J. Browne

It is an allocation process if expenditure has been incurred. The university has agreed to fund the library and various other services.

Chairman

It was agreed in the past and was not included as part of the registration fee.

Dr. James J. Browne

Yes but we never disaggregated expenditure in terms of allocation, no more than the State identifies how a particular tax is associated with a particular line of expenditure.

Professor Ferdinand Von Prondzynski

I will be brief because my answer is similar to that given by Dr. Browne. Perhaps there is a misconception as to how university budgets are constructed internally. I am sure the process at DCU is quite similar to elsewhere, where proposals are made for the budget, it is discussed, allocations are made within the overall budget and, taking account of all sources of income including the students student services charge, fees, the recurrent grant, private income and commercial income, appropriate expenditure is agreed. This is done at all levels with student participation.

The issue of whether libraries or anything else comes under the student services charge is a different one, although important. In the context of an agreed budget, it is a question of how money can be legitimately distributed between different sources of income. In this case there are certain limits on how the student services charge is spent and we have, on an annual basis, reported to the governing authority when students are present and indicated whether these sums spent on student services are lesser than or greater to the amount that comes in from the student services charge. We have always satisfied ourselves that there was no inappropriate expenditure. Students have been involved at all times in those discussions.

Professor Michael Murphy

Beyond what has been said and returning to what we all agreed an hour and a half ago, there is an artificial aspect to this discussion. We must manage universities holistically. Tuition is a student service. We are providing an educational service in its totality to students. As I read the record over the years, universities have taken the position in response to questions of this kind by setting out the reality that we spend far more on what might be regarded as student services than any registration fee up to this point has garnered.

Chairman

It was not accounted for in this way in the past.

Professor Michael Murphy

We have accounted sufficiently to demonstrate accountability. The money that is voted under this heading is being spent on student services.

Chairman

Why was it not accounted for in the past? Was that sloppy accounting?

Professor Michael Murphy

All we had to do was to demonstrate that we were not diverting money to nefarious or inappropriate uses. We had to satisfy all bodies and we chose headings that were non-controversial. Anyone can see the library is, by anyone's definition, a student service. Now we are in the space where there can be discussion on what is a core function and what is a student service. I did not frivolously ask the question of whether the filling of a pothole in the quad is a student service or a core function of the university. That is the space we are now in and it indicates the unsatisfactory nature by which universities are funded and the framework under which we are expending money.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

It is the Minister who fooled the students. As the student service charge increased, the core grant went down and the universities had to manage the books and run the institutions. Now the Minister wants to abolish the NUI office, a move I vehemently oppose. I commend the National University of Ireland, Galway, for saying it will keep its name irrespective of whether the Minister abolishes the NUI. Students have asked whether the student service charge is being used in any way to keep the NUI office going. If not, where does the fee the university pays to the NUI office come from?

Mr. Tom Boland

It is a little unfair to say the Minister has fooled students but the Minister can defend himself.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

That is my view based on what I have heard today.

Mr. Tom Boland

One of the problems is language. There is tuition and non-tuition. The framework developed in 1996 does not help. It states that it would appear appropriate to the working group that a substantial portion of the service charge should be allocated to student services. The working group recommended that within the provision, the potential portion that goes to student services, an allocation should be made to cover certain specified services to include student union clubs and societies. The language is all over the place. It is not surprising that students, presidents, this committee and the HEA are somewhat confused. It is really about tuition, which is paid for by the State, and non-tuition, which is paid for by various means including a contribution from students.

Chairman

If the language is all over the place will it be responded to quickly?

Mr. Tom Boland

We could examine it in the context of the review in which the HEA is now engaging.

Professor John Hughes

On the question regarding the NUI, each of the four NUI constituent universities pays a charge for each student to the NUI. I believe it is €44 per head at present.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

From where does it come?

Professor John Hughes

It comes from the income we receive; that is the point we are making this morning

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Does it come from the student services charge?

Professor John Hughes

Not based on these figures. It does not explicitly come from the student services charge. It comes from the four sources of funding I mentioned earlier. I assure the committee that NUI, Maynooth will remain NUI, Maynooth.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

That is great. How strongly are you putting the case to the Minister to keep the NUI brand?

Chairman

I must interrupt. We have a very heavy schedule here today with Dáil na nÓg also due to come before the committee. We can deal with this issue at another meeting. We have time for only a few more questions.

Professor Michael Murphy

To respond to the question from Senator Healy Eames on the NUI contribution——

Chairman

Very briefly.

Professor Michael Murphy

One could attribute part of the capitation fee to a student service because the NUI has a role in the examination system, for example in appointing and managing externs. It is a very complex picture.

Deputy Brian Hayes

With regard to the question posed by the Chairman to the Provost of Trinity, it is fair to state that including library services as part of student charges means an amount of €1,500 can be justified. In previous years it was not there so there was no need for it. It is the largest item of expenditure in the appendix provided. In Trinity College Dublin €31 million is outlined for this area, of which €19 million is for library services. That is the straight answer to the Chairman's question.

I saw documentation from UCD in which the suggestion is made that the Irish Universities Association, IUA, advised the seven universities that the definition of student services charges provides for a university to apply the income from student services charges to services such as IT and library services which historically have not been included. Once the IUA gives advice do the universities jump together?

Mr. Ned Costello

I will refer to a comment made by the Provost. The IUA is an organisation that operates by consensus.

Deputy Brian Hayes

There is much consensus here.

Mr. Ned Costello

Genuinely, it does. It operates on the basis of dialogue between the IUA executive and member institutions. That is how we arrive at any decision we make.

Deputy Brian Hayes

A question must be asked on the role of the IUA in terms of telling universities what they can and cannot do. Surely the State has a role through its Higher Education Authority to determine these matters.

Mr. Ned Costello

The IUA is a federal organisation that involves its seven members. It is not a regulatory body for the universities. It is a federal consensual organisation that assists in the formulation of collective sectoral policy. We do this through interaction among ourselves. In no way are we directive towards our members.

Chairman

I thank the delegations. We have reached a logical conclusion. Prior to Christmas, the Minister stated he was not of a mind to increase registration charges in the December budget if the cost of student services did not increase. Clearly he did not increase the registration fee. However, if the definition of student services charges keeps changing one will never know what will come into the equation. The consensus reached by Members of the Oireachtas, the university heads and the IUA is that fundamental reform of how these issues are assessed needs to be carried out as quickly as possible. I know a small number of committee members are present but I propose that we advise the Minister of our concerns regarding the need to speedily address the issues discussed today and that we ask him to come before the committee at the earliest opportunity to outline his position on these issues, to outline how new clarity will be brought to the matter and to ask him whether this would require a change to the Universities Act or new circulars or guidelines. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I thank Professor Hughes and all of the heads of universities, Mr. Costello, Mr. Casey and Mr. Boland for coming before the committee and for being very forthright in their responses. I am sure we have not put the matter to bed just yet but their presence here has shed more light on the issue.

Sitting suspended at 12.15 p.m. and resumed at 12.40 p.m.