Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science debate -
Tuesday, 23 Apr 2024

European Year of Skills 2023: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach

From the National Learning Network I welcome its director, Ms Lucianne Bird, and Ms Shona Healy, student; from Skillnet Ireland, Ms Tracey Donnery, director of policy and communications; from Eurofound, Dr. Gijs van Houten, senior research manager; and from WorldSkills, Mr. Ray English, chair, and Mr. Sean McLoughlin, apprentice electrician and competitor in the WorldSkills competition. The witnesses are here today to review the European Year of Skills 2023. The format of the meeting is that I will invite witnesses to make a brief opening statement in the following order - Ms Bird, Mr. Morton, Dr. van Houten and Mr. English. This will be followed by questions from each of the committee members. Each member has a five-minute slot in which to put the questions and to get a response from the witnesses. As the witnesses are probably aware, the committee will publish the opening statements on its website following today's meeting.

Before we begin, I remind witnesses of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that may be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in any way in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by the Chair to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I invite Ms Bird to begin, to be followed by the other witnesses. They will each have five minutes. Witnesses should please watch the clock. I will be calling time in five minutes.

Ms Lucianne Bird

One of the students at the National Learning Network wants to say a few words as well if that is okay.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay.

Ms Lucianne Bird

It is a privilege to address the committee. I am the director of the National Learning Network, which is the education and training division of the Rehab Group. I commend members on their work to date, highlighting the many issues affecting people who are disabled and achieving equitable access to education and training while on pathways to work, particularly in the context of the review of the European Year of Skills.

The European Year of Skills emphasises ensuring socially fair and just green and digital transitions and empowering individuals to participate fully in the labour market, society and democracy. When the year was first mooted, it was argued strongly by MEPs and civil society groups that skills should be understood in a more holistic way to encompass not only skills that provide for professional development but also the transversal and life skills required to strengthen sustainability, democracy and social inclusion.

NLN plays a pivotal role in equipping people with disabilities to develop both the skills to progress into employment or further and higher education and the transversal skills to manage the transition to work and engagement and community. Rehab Group as a whole provides services for over 10,000 adults and children and champions diversity and inclusion for disabled people in communities throughout Ireland. NLN is the education and training arm of Rehab Group and is a leading provider of inclusive education and training services across Ireland, with 83 locations in both urban and rural settings. We work with 3,500 students in our colleges across Ireland and support up to 4,000 students in higher education organisations each year. Our services are designed using universal design for learning, UDL, principles, ensuring accessibility and celebrating diversity across our campuses. Every student is supported to be their authentic self in psychologically safe learning environments. We work with individuals aged 16 and over with a range of disabilities, mental health conditions, neurodiversity and special educational needs, offering personalised support so they may achieve their education, training and employment goals.

Each year, up to 500 students find employment through NLN and over 1,000 progress to higher levels of training or education in either further education and training, FET, or higher education. We are funded primarily through the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, channelled through SOLAS and the 16 education and training boards, ETBs, and separately through the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. Our funding rates remain at 2011 levels, which is a key challenge for us.

We offer a broad range of Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, accredited training programmes, primarily between levels 2 and 5, spanning in-demand occupational skills. Courses in our portfolio include retail, horticulture, horsemanship, sports and leisure, computer programming, game design and multimedia studies. There are many more.

As we are here today to offer input into the review of the European Year of Skills, I want to highlight that all NLN courses include digital skills training. In 2024, we are introducing green skills and sustainability skills training at a level appropriate to all our courses. NLN has continued to improve and expand its virtual learning environment, ENLN. In 2023, coinciding with the European Year of Skills, NLN's commitment to delivering a first-class student experience was reinforced with the introduction of our tech wheel. NLN centres are now equipped with a diverse array of digital tools, such as Microsoft 365, Kahoot, Vocaroo and Minecraft Education, to name but a few, and continuous professional development in technology-enhanced learning and a community of practice have built staff confidence and competencies in technology-enhanced learning. It is an exciting place to learn, as Ms Healy will tell us.

Giving members insights into the work of NLN helps provide context to our perspective on the scope of the European Year of Skills, which we believe was too narrow. The focus purely on labour market schools is misplaced. For example, NLN is currently partnered with four European organisations in an Erasmus+ project called VOLT, which supports the cocreation of online learning materials with students. The VOLT project was showcased on the website for the European Year of Skills. We choose to showcase skills that are not considered vocational or occupational deliberately. For example, Julian is a student who is blind and learning how to use assistive technology to give him greater independence in the activities of daily living.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Ms Bird. The rest of her statement will be available to members. I call Ms Healy to make her statement.

Ms Shona Healy

I thank all the members for this opportunity to address the committee and hear about my lived experience. I am from Finglas, am 22 and have a late-in-life diagnosis of autism and ADHD. I am a student of National Learning Network Roslyn Park College, Stillorgan, and I am completing my course, Artlink, at QQI level 5. This course allows me the opportunity to work on my portfolio and it gives me studio space in which to work, develop my skills and work towards my goals.

Once I am finished this course, I hope to apply to the National College of Art and Design, NCAD, where I hope to qualify as a community art-based facilitator working within the disability community.

Prior to attending the National Learning Network, I had only ever been in mainstream education. I had attended secondary and further education, but I was unable to engage in my education in these settings and I did not understand why. I was unable to cope with the environment, which led to me going through quite bad school refusal. It was detrimental to my mental health. I left these educational settings believing I was unintelligent and that I was not meant to be in education. I felt lost and hopeless before coming to the National Learning Network. It was when I came to NLN and met people who were just like me that I began to understand myself a little better. It was because I came to the National Learning Network that I sought and received a diagnosis. This has changed my life for the better. I understand how to manage situations that cause me distress. It has helped me heal and rebuild my confidence. I have time to work on building my own strengths and coping skills while working on my education. The work experience I have received from this course has been amazing. It has given me real insight and understanding of the area I would like to pursue a career in after I finish education. It has given me direction and a goal to aim towards as I understand what I would like to do as a career.

Education is one part the National Learning Network. The staff and structure are what make the experience so valuable. The staff are approachable and my time there is focused on what I need to progress. Being with my peers has helped me to begin to understand myself better. I value the time I spend with my friends at college. I learn from them and they from me. I have such a better understanding of my needs as a result of this.

Ms Tracey Donnery

I thank the committee for the opportunity to attend today to outline Skillnet Ireland’s contribution to the European Year of Skills and highlight how Skillnet Ireland is supporting businesses to address their skills challenges, including those of digitalisation and sustainability.

As the national agency responsible for spearheading workforce development for the enterprise sector, we welcomed the European Commission's announcement of the European Year of Skills and its commitment to life-long learning. We focus on the upskilling challenges of digitalisation, sustainability, SME leadership, talent for FDI firms and innovation. We do this by working with 60 industry partners. Our approach is to empower industry to determine its skill needs and facilitate the delivery and design of programmes on a cost-sharing basis. We also foster collaborations between companies and the tertiary education sector to develop new programmes to meet the needs of industry.

In 2022, we provided training supports to more than 24,000 businesses and 92,000 trainees through our 74 Skillnet business networks and national upskilling schemes. We invested a total of €70.2 million in industry developed skills programmes, of which €26.5 million came from the private sector in co-investment. We initiated a series of events and projects to mark the European Year of Skills. In May 2023, we hosted the Irish launch event of the European Year of Skills with the then Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science and now Taoiseach, Deputy Harris, alongside stakeholders from across the skills and enterprise eco-system. Our Skillnet business networks delivered more than 30 dedicated European Year of Skills events to promote life-long learning and offer valuable learning opportunities across a wide range of areas, including retail, hospitality, technology and many others.

Throughout the year, we placed an emphasis on encouraging SMEs in particular to prioritise upskilling through these events and our ongoing promotion campaigns. We were pleased to present the Skillnet Ireland enterprise-led skills model at a number of high-profile European Commission events, including the EU sustainable energy week and the EU pact for skills forum. Soon, we will speak at the closing event of the European Year of Skills, which is titled, The EU Year of Skills - What Comes Next?

Each of these European engagements brings significant benefits to Ireland in terms of disseminating international best practice, industry insights and learning about new industry skills developments across the wider EU membership. We also partnered with the European DIGITAL SME Alliance to host a skills summit at the European Economic and Social Committee, EESC, in November 2023 in Brussels.

In terms of our broader EU engagement, Skillnet Ireland is now a delivery partner in six EU consortia initiatives that focus on digitalisation and the green transition. These involve collaboration with more than 25 countries.

In January 2024, Skillnet Ireland was pleased to launch its first European Social Fund Plus, ESF+, programme. We are investing €10 million in workforce development through ESF+ this year. This investment will create significant impacts for business competitiveness and the ongoing career development of over 2,000 individuals in 2024. These programmes will be delivered across a wide range of technical and transferable skills areas. ESF+ will facilitate us in making a significant impact on developing Ireland’s skilled and resilient workforce and deliver measurable impacts and results in furthering social inclusion in the years ahead.

In its recent pact for skills report, the European Commission ranked Skillnet Ireland first out of 47 upskilling initiatives for enterprise across EU member states and internationally. The report was commissioned by the European Innovation Council, EIC, and ranked Skillnet Ireland first in terms of overall performance assessment and its impact on businesses and contribution to the economy, including to the digital and climate agenda. This report reinforces Ireland’s reputation for leading-edge workforce development policies and business supports.

In the year in which our organisation marks its 25th anniversary, Skillnet Ireland and its 74 Skillnet business networks and initiatives have embraced the European Year of Skills. Having a highly skilled workforce is critical for Ireland’s national competitiveness. By investing further in workforce development, Ireland can ensure that its workforce is equipped with leading-edge skills and, in doing so, capitalise on the immense economic opportunities that the green and digital transitions present.

Dr. Gijs van Houten

I am a senior research manager in Eurofound, the European Foundation for the Improvement of Living and Working Conditions. We are the only such EU agency in Ireland and our role is to provide knowledge and expertise to support EU institutions, governments, employers, trade unions and civil society organisations in shaping and implementing social and employment policies. We carry out research and collect comparative data through our high-quality, cross-national surveys and a network of national correspondents.

The European Commission states that the European Union Year of Skills helps people to get the right skills for quality jobs and supports companies in addressing skills shortages in Europe. It places a very strong emphasis on skills supply, speaking about the need for a workforce with in-demand skills for long-term sustainable growth and competitiveness and to ensure that the green and digital transitions are socially fair and just.

However, without demand-side policies encouraging organisations to optimise skills use to achieve their competitive advantages, the potential benefits generated by supply-side policies aimed at improving the skills base will not fully materialise. Labour and skills shortages are at the forefront of the European political agenda and job vacancy rates saw a sharp increase in almost all EU member states in 2021 and 2022. They dropped a little bit in 2023. According to Eurostat, in the fourth quarter of 2023, vacancy rates were highest in Belgium, the Netherlands and Austria, at over 4%, and lowest in Spain, Bulgaria and Romania, at just under 1%. At 1%, the vacancy rate in Ireland was among the lowest in the EU.

Ireland ranks in the EU’s top five in terms of the proportion of the workforce with basic or above basic digital skills. However, research has shown that in order to perform best, employees not only need the right skills to do the job, but also the opportunity to use these skills and the motivation to do so. Organisations can implement management approaches to facilitate this by enabling learning and skills development through job design; putting monetary and non-monetary motivational drivers in place; and granting autonomy and facilitating voice. Whether they do so depends on how much the organisational culture is people-centred.

As is confirmed by the data from Eurofound's European companies' survey, which we conducted jointly in 2019 with the EU agency for skills, there is a strong effect of culture on ability, motivation and opportunity. Ability, motivation and opportunity have small but significant effects on the performance of businesses. Research confirms that businesses and companies with people-centred workplace practices, including practices that foster ability, motivation and opportunity, also do better both in terms of workplace well-being and establishment performance, as we have shown in the presentation. The presentation also shows that businesses in the high investment-high involvement group, that is, those that have a lot of practices in place that invest in the capacity for workers to carry out their job well, namely, good working conditions, also have quite significant practices for involving employees in decision-making.

They perform much better than the average group in terms of the well-being of their staff and performance.

Ireland is in the top half of the EU distribution in terms of the prevalence of people-centred practices. It is not doing badly. However, a sizeable proportion of Irish businesses is in the selective investment and moderate involvement group, which means these businesses have a lot of practices in place but only grant these perks to a selection of employees. There seems to be scope for improving workplace well-being and establishment performance in general, and skills utilisation in particular, by extending existing practices more universally and deepening the opportunities for direct and indirect employee participation.

The European Year of Skills 2023 reminded us of the importance of improving the skills base of the labour force. To successfully further the green and digital transitions, active labour market policies need to be revised and curricula for education and vocational training need to be updated to ensure the availability of the skills required to integrate new digital technologies and take up green jobs.

Our findings underline that such supply-side interventions will be more effective if skills use in organisations is improved. This requires looking at working conditions more generally, including job design, motivating workers and ensuring that there are channels in place for involving workers and their representatives in decision-making. These people-centred managerial practices not only improve skills utilisation, but also boost innovation and digitalisation.

Our results show that these practices are much more prevalent in businesses with an organisational culture that values human capital. Managerial education should therefore cover the building of a people-centred organisational culture and the implementation of managerial approaches that create opportunities for employees to use and develop their skills. People-centred practices are relatively prevalent in Irish businesses but, as mentioned, there is room for improvement. The social partners can help promote a people-centred organisational culture and create the right conditions for constructive employee involvement at the workplace.

An Cathaoirleach

Dead on time. Five minutes exactly.

Mr. Ray English

WorldSkills Ireland thanks the committee for inviting us to reflect with it on activities and outcomes during the European Year of Skills and outline our plans to support skills and apprenticeships throughout 2024 and beyond. Ireland, through the then Department of Education, joined WorldSkills International in 1956. An Irish team competed for the first time in 1957 and Irish teams have competed at every competition since then. The Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science remains the member of WorldSkills International.

I am delighted to be joined today by Sean McLoughlin, an apprentice electrician and winner of the 2023 Department of Further and Higher Education Research Innovation and Science silver medal in electrical installations and Ireland’s electrical installations competitor in the Olympics of skills, WorldSkills Lyon 2024. France has declared that is has three major events this year, the Olympics in July, the Paralympics in August and the skills Olympics in September. I am sure the committee is keen to ask Sean many questions about apprenticeship and the value of skills competitions, and we will get to him very shortly.

WorldSkills Ireland had a busy year contributing to promoting apprenticeships and skills during the European Year of Skills. We had multiple preliminary competitions in more than 30 skills competitions, from electrical to computer aided design, CAD, hairdressing to welding, metal fabrication, beauty therapy, industry 4.0, digital construction, cybersecurity, painting and decorating, bricklaying and plumbing, among many others. Preliminary competitions took place nationwide from January to June and were hosted by education and training boards, institutes of technology, technological universities and industry centres.

Following marking, examination and the collation of results, on 15 July, the United Nations world youth skills day, we announced the more than 180 finalists for the national skills competitions 2023 at a packed national launch event in Athlone. This led to the biggest and most successful apprenticeship and skills expo ever held in Ireland. WorldSkills Ireland 2023 had a 100% registration of 30,000, with 25,000 attending the RDS Simmonscourt from 20 to 22 September, doubling attendance since 2019.

More importantly, the gender profile improved to 51% male and 49% female in the age bracket 16 to 24. No other vocational education and training, VET, or apprenticeship event is achieving these figures. Some 300 schools attended, with representation from all 26 counties. All 16 ETBs and the five technological universities exhibited, supported by 33 sponsors and partners. The independently gathered data shows that mindsets on the value of skills and apprenticeships as valued career paths had clearly changed in student career choosers and, as important, that of parents.

Some 74% of students attended looking for alternatives to third level education and some 94% of parents said coming to the event either reinforced their positive perception of skills or changed their perception positively.

The value of competitions at WorldSkills Live was reinforced by team Ireland’s participation at the EuroSkills competition in Gdansk, Poland, after a long gap. Although we only had a small team of four competitors, we achieved two medallions of excellence, in CAD and cabinet-making.

WorldSkills Ireland is proud to say that we have contributed to the Osnabrück declaration on vocational education and participated in European and WorldSkills competitions. Since our inception, we have won a total of 65 gold medals, 53 silver medals, 81 bronze medals and 176 medallions of excellence in WorldSkills and EuroSkills competitions.

In addition, in 2019, Ireland was awarded, by the unanimous vote of the members of WorldSkills International, the hosting of the 2023 WorldSkills general assembly. This biennial general meeting and conference sets the agenda for the next years of global activity and key priorities. With more than 400 delegates, partners and global sponsors, the four-day event was addressed by the United Nations, the International Labour Organization, ILO, UNESCO-UNEVOC and the African Union. China's Vice Minister of Education attended and held bilateral meetings with representatives of the Department and the Minister of State, Deputy Neale Richmond.

An all-of-Ireland meeting hosted by WorldSkills Ireland with Department officials and Northern Ireland officials from trade and education paved the way for further engagement and the possibility of all-of-Ireland competitions, and we hope to deliver these over the next year.

What comes next? We are planning and organising WorldSkills Ireland 2024 again in RDS Simmonscourt, taking all of the available floor space. Running concurrently with Higher Options from the 25 to 27 September, we will give students oversight of the full tertiary education and training offerings across the country. Again, we will have a further education concourse, an employers and recruitment zone and an education and training village packed with apprenticeship and skills careers exhibitors.

As regards the surrounding key activities of the national skills competition, there are up to 30 skills competitions covering key sectors such as construction, hospitality and tourism, transport and logistics, manufacturing and engineering, information and communications technology, health and personal services. Each of these sectors are supported by "try a skill" areas, encouraging students to engage with skills careers through practical activities, such as augmented reality, AR, and visual reality, VR, training rigs and the chance to see skills in action.

With the support of members, we can continue to have a year of skills every year and meet our national skills goals. We cordially invite members to attend this year's WorldSkills Ireland 2024 competitions and to be skills proud.

An Cathaoirleach

I remind members they have five minutes to ask questions and get replies. If we have time, we will have a second round.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I thank everyone for attending. In fairness, we could probably spend an hour dealing with each of the witnesses individually. The theme across the board is the idea of skills education and the multiple route maps or roadmaps to education. Everyone is coming off at a different place.

Ms Healy got the point across on the National Learning Network. My office has dealt with the NLN in Dundalk. People have been in short term and some have been in long term. My notion of what the NLN did was probably somewhat different. It deals with people with disabilities, mental health conditions, brain injuries and special educational needs. The way Ms Healy put it was that she was not necessarily comfortable in the formalised education system to a degree and this is just another route map to a more comfortable setting. Would that be fair to say?

Ms Shona Healy

It was more that mainstream education was not accessible to me. This felt like my last chance of getting an education, if that answers the Deputy’s question.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Yes, it does.

Ms Shona Healy

I do not think I would be able to go on to university if I did not get my level 5 in the National Learning Network specifically. I tried another level 5 course and I was not able to complete it.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

That is it. Society and the whole system loses out on that basis. That is the bit that was sold to me - whether it is somebody getting back into the system and being facilitated into work or education or whether, as Ms Healy said, the education system is not accessible to somebody.

Ms Bird spoke about the fact that the NLN is at 2011 rates. I have seen the benefits and what NLN can do. It is that idea of what we can do to help, how to make this more sustainable and how to get a better bang for buck. I think everyone will have been particularly taken that Ms Healy got her diagnosis within the NLN.

Ms Shona Healy

No. I did not realise what was going on with me until I was in the NLN, but I had to seek the diagnosis outside of that because there is no public adult autism or ADHD assessment.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

That is a longer conversation that we are not going to have here. However, that is a win across the board. Are there difficulties? What can be done to benefit NLN's circumstances? I am sure everyone will say with a greater amount of resources, they could do more.

Ms Lucianne Bird

The Deputy is quite right that we are working with a diverse range of students. They include people for whom the labour market is distant for a variety of reasons, such as intellectual disability or enduring mental health conditions, or people who are neurodivergency. Increasingly we are seeing cases similar to Ms Healy's, where people have come out of mainstream education and do not have a qualification. They have not attained examination results and do not have a pathway. That is a particular group. Approximately 60% of students who come to us are in the 16 to 25 age group. It is a critical pool of talent for the labour market. Our services are education-focused and QQI courses, but they are education-plus. They are education plus intervention, plus support, plus wrapping the educational programme around the person and giving every person the best opportunity to succeed.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Bulk solutions.

Ms Lucianne Bird

Yes. Regarding what could be done, I would join up the different cross-sectoral interests. There is a health and education aspect to what we do. We are funded separately and even within that, we are not able to tie the funds together. Assessment is critical. As the Deputy said, it is a bigger discussion. Access to assessment services is very important to make sure that people get the right kind of supports. In addition, the funding mechanisms have to be revised. You clearly cannot provide services in 2024 based on 2011 funding. There are significant challenges for us as an organisation from a sustainability point of view. I am concerned about the lack of funding impacting on quality, safeness and effectiveness of services. There are opportunities to join up provisions. For instance, we have not had access to capital but other parts of education and training have fit-for-purpose services. Making services available on a cross-basis, across the ETBs, the NLN and other providers would bring efficiency into the system. We are aware there is a limit to resources, so it is about making the best use and joining up all the different elements in provision. It is also about recognising that people start at different points and there are very different pathways for people as they move through the whole education system to employment and to taking their place in the community and civil society.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I appreciate that. Regarding Skillnet, it is reactive to enterprise and its needs. I have seen locally the connections with the institutes of education, such as the LMETB and even the AMTCE in Dundalk. I probably got the acronym back to front at this stage, but I am referring to the Advanced Manufacturing Training Centre of Excellence. The big one here is Skillnet Ireland was ranked first out of 47 upskilling initiatives for enterprise across EU member states.

My initial question was going to be how you rate that. Obviously that was answered in the opening statement. Therefore it is a case that this works and it is about the interaction with those other bodies and then delivering what is necessary and ensuring that you stay ahead of the game.

Ms Tracey Donnery

Skillnet Ireland is founded on collaboration. We empower enterprise. It is an enterprise-led model. In addition to the 60 industry bodies that we work with which either run a Skillnet business network or one of our national initiatives, they in turn partner with all the universities. We partner with IDA Ireland, Enterprise Ireland, Bord Bia and many other Government agencies. Through those collaborations, there are opportunities to develop bespoke solutions for enterprise that meets the needs they have, whether that is skills needed for digitalisation, sustainability, housing or advanced manufacturing. That allows enterprise to take on the challenge of designing a programme that really suits their needs and designing new programmes where needed with the universities or with further education. That enables and empowers the businesses to drive innovation and introduce new business practices.

The Deputy mentioned advanced manufacturing. Something we have done a lot recently is to develop out new programmes in robotics and artificial intelligence and the interaction between those. That has helped drive advanced manufacturing across biopharma, medtech and other types of production facilities.

Senator Fiona O'Loughlin

I thank everyone for being here. I will ask my questions in one block to be efficient. As my colleague said, we could spend the whole day here discussing all of the really interesting aspects that have been brought to us. Can I thank Ms Healy for bringing so much colour into Leinster House today? It is great to see it. I really like her colour scheme.

On 9 April I had the opportunity to attend a presentation of Gaisce awards as well as QQI certificates at NLN in Athy. Anne Marie Hogan and Claire Brennan are doing an absolutely incredible job. I learned quite a bit and was very impressed with the work that has gone on. There was a young man on the course who would not previously have been able to go out in independent living but has learned the social and life skills that he needs. Rory's Stories was there as a guest speaker. I was very impressed with his story and how he related to all of those there.

I was intrigued by how Ms Healy found out about the programme. Did she find it accessible both in being easy to get to by transport and also to be easy to get into? Ms Bird spoke about finance, etc. Are there waiting lists for young people who would avail of it but cannot be given a place because of finance?

Turning to Worldskills, it is good to see Mr. English again. He has done tremendous work. It is great to see the gender equity since the last time we had engagement here. It is fantastic. I congratulate Mr. McLoughlin on his award. It is great to see. Mr. English was looking for a week around Worldskills. What has the engagement been like with the Department of higher and further education on that? It is important we support it. It is terrific that Worldskills is having the event in Dublin, and I have no doubt many people will get to it, but it would be great to have a roadshow so that those who are not near Dublin would have the opportunity. That parity of esteem around apprenticeships and skills is hugely important. When Mr. McLoughlin was in school, was it through career guidance that he learned more? We have been talking for some time about how career guidance teachers are essential in order to inform and empower more young people to go down this road.

We probably do not have time to go back to Skillnet but I thank it for its really valuable work.

Ms Shona Healy

I found out about NLN because my parents were concerned about me going into mainstream and did a lot of research. They were the ones who found this pathway for me when I was not able to finish in my other educational setting. On public transport, I get two buses to Stillorgan every day. I find it all right. It is a bit stressful because it is public transport but I can get there easily enough.

Ms Lucianne Bird

On demand and waiting lists, there are two sides to our business. Part of the rehabilitative training, school leavers, bridging and transition services is funded by the HSE and referred into directly by the HSE. There is huge growth in demand for services at that side. The specialist training service is funded through the ETB, through the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Solas and the ETBs. It is not as well known as it should be and it is not directly promoted through any of the ETBs, thisisFET.ie or any of the other promotion of further education and training systems. It is a bit hidden within the FET ecosystem. That is something that could be addressed. We do a lot of work on outreach because making people aware of services is a critical part of the provision of services to people with disabilities. People say it is one of the best-kept secrets, however. People will only look for the services, as Ms Healy has said, when they need them. It is usually through a referral agency or parent or career guidance in school. We are doing a lot to reach out and make the people who can refer people in aware of the services that are available. We do not have huge waiting lists right across the country for specialist training but there is a huge demand for the HSE bridging. There is significant demand there for the level 2 and 3 courses there. It is about joining up and looking at how over-demand in the HSE can be met with under-demand on the ETB-funded side, if that makes sense. It is an area for discussion. Our view is that we could offer services and support many more students if the service was more widely known.

I was also speaking to my colleague here outside about how people come in and out of service. People do not necessarily want to come to us for the full programme. It is around providing the supports they need to engage, progress, thrive and move on through their educational journeys. It is important to look at NLN as service people come to for what they need. It could be quite transformative within the whole education system if that kind of approach was adopted.

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

I was guided by the guidance counsellors in school but they are not even fully informed on this. Apprenticeship gives such a platform to go on and learn further. They are not aware of the further aspects it is possible to go into afterwards, maybe. They push it a certain amount, but not enough. They push it as a secondary back-up to the college route. It could be better. They pushed it but there was not enough emphasis on it, in my opinion.

Senator Fiona O'Loughlin

I thank Mr. McLoughlin. Will Mr. English comment on the national skills week?

Mr. Ray English

I suppose Mr. McLoughlin has given the answer there. We all need to focus in on apprenticeship and skills. We have a three-day competition but what is to stop us having a national week where we focus in on skills and apprenticeship, work with all the ETBs and technological universities as well as industry and look to have that focus? We are currently operating in September, which is when the CAO results are out. The Higher Options event and the World Skills Ireland competition take place at the same time. There is that tertiary approach. The Senator is right, however. We do need to roll it out across the country. It cannot be Dublin-centric. We would love to get a model where we can roll out across the country and touch more schools.

An Cathaoirleach

It was one of the recommendations to the Department in a report which the committee put together. We had Worldskills in before. I am not sure if it was Mr. English.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I thank all the organisations in attendance. They come from a wide range of areas, from pure research to employment upskilling, aimed at delivering excellence in skills and providing a place for people who find it difficult to get their education in other places. Both Ms Healy and Mr. McLoughlin have shown the strength of the organisations that have helped them get their education. They have also shown their own excellence.

I could spend 15 minutes addressing these issues, never mind five minutes. I want to get people's feelings about whether the European Year of Skills has moved the dial. Ms Donnery spoke about some of the events that Skillnet Ireland hosted. I was very excited about the European Year of Skills in May last year when it was announced but I am not sure it landed in the way I had hoped. I am not sure it has permeated in to the national consciousness in the way I thought it would, but I hope I am wrong. Maybe I have just been looking in the wrong places.

Ms Bird spoke about the emphasis being purely on workplace skills and she is absolutely right. I do not see a focus on just taking up a skill for personal development. Who knows down the line where a person will end up. I was a bartender for five years while going through college and while that did not help me much in teaching, by God, when I became a politician the ability to be able to talk to people suddenly came into its own. You never know where the skills you learn along your life path are going to become useful, even in terms of finding personal fulfilment or within the workplace. There was a missed opportunity in that regard. Perhaps Ms Bird wishes to comment on that.

Speaking about the end-of-year ceremony for the European Year of Skills, Ms Donnery asked what comes next. What a pertinent question. What does come next?

I find Dr. van Houten's research excellent; it is really brilliant. When I look at the chart, I ask myself how we will encourage companies to move from selective investment and moderate involvement to high investment and high involvement. When I talk to employers, they say they have an interest in this but that one of the key problems they have is staff retention.

I found Dr. van Houten's comments around the demand side versus the supply side very interesting. It suggests that people are putting on courses and looking to upskill people but are not finding an outlet within the organisation for those increased skill sets. If a worker is upskilled and then not given an outlet for that new skill set, that worker will be lost, in a sense. For me, it makes perfect business sense to ensure there is high investment and high involvement. In Dr. van Houten's chart, how do we convert the green to the blue?

Ms Lucianne Bird

I agree with the Deputy. There probably was a missed opportunity. As an organisation, we always keep an eye on what is happening in Europe and we are, therefore, aware of the European Year of Skills. We are also involved in the European rehabilitation platform and I have talked about the project in which we were involved in that regard. We were conscious of our digital enhancements and we timed them to align, as I said earlier. We are now moving in to the sustainability area. We are, therefore, very aware of that issue.

If we are going to try to change the world of work for people with disabilities and people for whom the labour market is distant, we have to look at creating awareness and a culture within employment and companies that includes and accepts difference and divergence. That is critical and it is an area on which the European Year of Skills could have focused. For us, it is about ensuring transversal skills are valued. These are the skills that people need to manage emotions, their environment and positive and negative changes in their lives, which are all things that people have to do in the workplace. Focusing on those as skills that are built pre-employment and that people can take into employment is very important and it is a focus that, as I said, has been missed a little.

Ms Tracey Donnery

The premise of the European Year of Skills was to promote lifelong learning and encourage greater engagement. From our perspective, that was mainly with SMEs in digital and sustainability. What comes next for Skillnet Ireland is that we will remain a champion of lifelong learning and encourage it.

We will encourage lifelong learning among those entering the workforce and help everyone understand the need for it. Every one of us needs to continue to learn. We all need to develop new technical skills, whether it is digital skills, refreshing our leadership skills or broadening our understanding of our own sector or the wider world. We will make sure that we showcase some of the best examples because sometimes it is only when people see a wide range of examples in practice, given different sectors or sizes of companies, that we inspire them to want to learn.

Last year, the then Minister, now Taoiseach, Deputy Harris, called on everyone to develop some new skill, whether that is inside or outside the workplace. It is about promoting that and, in particular, inspiring and getting greater engagement from SMEs. What we have seen in both management development and upskilling is that once there is a commitment to lifelong learning within any company and people who will drive it, everyone benefits. The companies become more competitive and the career development becomes enriching for the person.

We are very pleased that one of our biggest opportunities in the European Year of Skills was launching our first European social fund scheme in January. I mentioned this earlier. It will give us a great opportunity to broaden the range of skills we offer, not only to offer upskilling to businesses to remain competitive, but also to empower individuals to develop their own career and move from one area to another. One of the biggest emphases on that is supporting people in the digital or sustainable skills space and also supporting returners and enabling people who wish to convert from sector A to sector B, or who wish to return to the workforce.

For me, it is about inspiring people and continuing to showcase the value of lifelong learning so that we can build greater engagement in it.

Dr. Gijs van Houten

The Deputy asked a very good question. The answers of the other witnesses included part of the answer I was going to give. I could talk forever about how we encourage companies but I will keep it brief and focus on a couple of points. The first is on the training of managers. Managerial education does not sufficiently emphasise the fact that employees are the key asset to businesses. Many business programmes are focused on the financial side of things and human resource management is a separate programme that is a bit of an afterthought in managerial education. That is a key point of focus.

Not only do we need to adjust managerial education, but people also need to be trained to be able to engage in discussions with management. If people wish to have a workforce in which everyone is involved in the decision-making, from the bottom to the top, then everyone needs to be willing and able to engage in that type of discussion. That requires a type of soft skills that have been gaining in importance and attention in recent years but still need to be invested in further.

The third point is on investing in social dialogue structures. If there is healthy social dialogue, it can take the sting out of the discussions at the workplace level. There can be hard bargaining about how to divide the pie in a social dialogue setting and internal discussions can then be focused on how to increase the pie because everyone is happy with how the stakes are divided at the end.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I welcome all the witnesses. I will start with Mr. McLoughlin. What was his pathway in becoming an apprentice electrician? Did he go straight into that after school?

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

Yes. I skipped transition year. Part of the reason was that I am lucky enough that I work with my father. We run a family business. I decided I would skip transition year instead of spending the whole of transition year working with my father anyway.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Transition year was a pathway into an apprenticeship for you.

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

No, I skipped it altogether because I knew I would just go working with my father anyway. My thinking was to get my foot on the ladder a year earlier than I would have otherwise. I was lucky enough that way in that I always knew I wanted to do an apprenticeship.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

For the other people who were in school with Mr. McLoughlin and, say, did not have that advantage of knowing what they wanted to do, how would they have been able to access skills? What could have been done for them to make them more aware of what Mr. McLoughlin was aware of?

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

One way of doing this would be to bring more guest speakers and people who work in an area into schools to showcase what this type of work is all about, rather than just having students listen to someone telling them what an apprenticeship does.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Yes.

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

In fairness to TY, it does provide this platform. We take on a good few TY students to give them the opportunity to come on board and we showcase a bit of what we do. It is hard to do that in two weeks, to be fair.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Had Mr. McLoughlin heard of WorldSkills Ireland when he was going through school?

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

I went to the event when I was in fifth year but to be honest, I did not even know what I was going to. I went as part of a school trip. I saw some of the work on display but I would never have even dreamed of competing in or even winning it.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

How did Mr. McLoughlin become aware of the Olympic competitions he has competed in?

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

I was in phase 4 in ATU Sligo. It was by luck that I was sent there. I was asked if I would compete in a preliminary round. I did so, and won that in Sligo. I was then asked to compete in the RDS on behalf of ATU Sligo. It is all a voluntary push, to be fair. It is the tutors who push it voluntarily.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Turning to Mr. English, regarding the event taking place in Dublin from 25 to 27 September, are schools informed about it? What is the level of attendance? Is there anything we can do to publicise it?

Mr. Ray English

We write out to the school principals and inform them about the event. We work very closely with the Institute of Guidance Counsellors in promoting it. Our registration system opens on 1 May. We were very lucky last year. The capacity is 30,000 and reached 30,000 registrations, with approximately 25,000 people turning up. There was so much going on that week that buses became difficult to get. By going with Higher Options, we are covering the entire tertiary sector. We are seeing the full availability of courses and this is the important aspect in respect of giving people oversight of everything available.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Obviously, only a certain number of events can be organised, but would it be more beneficial if it were possible to organise other events around the country as well? Is it possible to do this?

Mr. Ray English

Yes, and one of our plans is to look at a roll-out across the regions. There are also other opportunities. We consider Mr. McLoughlin to be a national champion. He has won the Department's silver medal in electrical installations. We would love to be able to send all the winners back to schools to talk about their careers and where they sit and to have this sort of engagement with students in transition year, as well as with fifth- and sixth-year students, about what careers in skills look like. Mr. McLoughlin is going to the overall WorldSkills competition in Lyon, and, with a bit of luck, he will be coming back as a world champion. This would be another way of bringing people competing for Ireland on the world stage in their career choice into schools. For Mr. McLoughlin, it is in electrical installations. It is about bringing people with this experience back and getting them to show others what can happen and how valuable this experience is.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Okay. I was very sorry to hear that Ms Healy had what appears to be an unfulfilling experience in mainstream education. What was it that NLN provided that was not available in mainstream educational secondary school that Ms Healy thinks allowed her potential an opportunity to shine?

Ms Shona Healy

There was an understanding of my needs more than the mainstream education system did. It allowed me the space to figure things out. I can wear my headphones if I need to cancel out any sound. I can apply stuff like this within my education. Another big thing is that we are all in the one room. It is a studio space for my course. When doing art, it is very much about a flow that it is not possible to get in a mainstream setting. When we are doing one module, we just work through it. There are not necessarily different classes every day. This structure works way better for me because I can focus in on the one subject and get that done rather than having to juggle about ten subjects. This is a big thing as well.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

It is less structured and less disciplined and provides an opportunity to just present one's skills.

Ms Shona Healy

Everyone has an individual education plan, IEP, as well. We are linked in and every two months we have an IEP meeting. Psychologists also come in once a week as well. Having these supports within the campus is very important.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Moving to Ms Bird, is this a deliberate strategy in NLN to ensure limiting structures are not put down?

Ms Lucianne Bird

The structure is there and is strong, but it is not interfering with students as they progress through their programme of learning and education. It is not an unstructured environment. It is that we structure things differently.

It is based on where the person is at. People can come in at different times. It is not about starting in September and working all the way through. This means people are at different stages in their learning journey. The classroom itself is small. There are about 12 people in each different classroom, if we can imagine it that way. Everyone is moving through the modules and learning in his or her own way, with individual supports built around him or her. The key thing, and Ms Healy captured it well, is that it is a supportive environment and one where people feel psychologically safe. People talk about belonging and being able to take off their masks for the first time when they come into NLN. They are then able to seek the supports they need to thrive, engage and progress in their an educational journey. Our approach is very much structured around building a different environment, one that feels different to the students.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Okay. Turning to Dr. van Houten, he said in his key message that he would love to see the curricula for education and vocational training updated to take into account the integration of new technologies and green jobs. What specifically would he like to see changed in the Irish educational curricula, if he can answer this question within the next 20 seconds?

Dr. Gijs van Houten

This is not really my area. It is a generic statement.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Okay, that is no problem.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I welcome all our speakers and witnesses here today to acknowledge the European Year of Skills and the activities that have taken place. I am a Senator from the west of Ireland, from the Roscommon-Galway area. I am the Fine Gael spokesperson in the Seanad on education and further and higher education, research, innovation and science. I have some questions for Ms Bird on the NLN approach to education.

I have people from an accessibility group in County Roscommon in with me today. They are here to see Leinster House. The group works with the Roscommon LEADER partnership, which is a development group in the county. It is very important that we have access to these sorts of supports and that there are organisations that support and co-ordinate an event and a visit like this one today. In respect of people with disabilities learning skills, how does this further translate into people getting into employment? What does Ms Bird see as being the key aspects in this regard? I might pursue this question with Skillnet Ireland as well. Regarding enterprise and business too, what is the link in this context and how can we improve it? When someone with a disability, for example, does achieve and get a skill, I am wondering about the next move into employment, including partial employment, and working with employers. I know there are the work links as well.

Ms Lucianne Bird

This is a very good question. I thank the Senator. All our programmes have work experience built in as a mandatory module. This means people get to pursue work experience. We also have work-related skills as part of the overall training. There is much that can be done to work with people to get them ready for the world of work. This is extremely important and there is a major focus in all our training on this area.

There is, however, much work to be done with the employer side of things. My colleague talked about the culture in employment and building the management skills and the awareness of managers to enable them to see diversity and inclusion as positive things within their workforce. We have a good bit to go with this aim. We have some examples of terrific partnerships that I could mention in this regard, including with the Mr. Price group. We have an amazing partnership with that company, and we are seeking to replicate it with others. The positivity in respect of the way the company has embraced inclusion and people with disability in its services has far surpassed anything we could have imagined. This is one of several partnerships we are working on. Again, there is room for us all to come together and to work with employers and upskill them in this regard. Perhaps we could be an organisation providing disability awareness and inclusion practice awareness in conjunction with Skillnet Ireland and other organisations to get this flow going across the different areas.

Senator Aisling Dolan

The testimonials in this regard could be useful.

Ms Lucianne Bird

Yes.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Sometimes when we see things working in practice it makes a great difference. I go into my local supermarket in Ballinasloe and see people working there from all different kinds of backgrounds. It is great to see. A few of the other retailers have been mentioned as well.

I will pose my earlier question to Ms Donnery from Skillnet Ireland as well.

Linking in with enterprises and businesses for people with a disability and when they have achieved a skill and have gone through that, what would Ms Donnery say are the top three things which would help or support businesses or that perhaps our committee should be looking at in supporting Skillnet Ireland?

Ms Tracey Donnery

Diversity and inclusion has always been a key priority for Skillnet Ireland both internally and across all of our networks. We have supported many people who are already employed in the workforce with further and specialist upskilling. One of the key things we are doing is working with developing managers and management expertise in diversity and inclusion. One example I would give would be in our BioPharmaChem Skillnet, which did a recent report and which is on our website. It looked at diversity, and in particular at neurodiversity, and at ways within that sector in which it can broaden the diversity of employees and provide the right supports to them in upskilling, learning development and support.

Another network, the name does not immediately come to mind, did something similar. Following on from that, we have built out programmes. While I do not have figures to hand, I know there are many people with disabilities who have undertaken Skillnet programmes and much work is under way in ensuring that the SME management development we would do in large and small companies includes that.

Working together, as we discussed outside of the committee room, would certainly be helpful. The European Social Fund, ESF+ programme, which has a greater focus on social inclusion, will increase that in the coming years.

One more thing we have is our Positive2Work Skillnet programme, which is a Skillnet dedicated to diversity, inclusion and over the years has done some great work.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Of that engagement with enterprise, I know Skillnet is a national organisation, but on the issue of rural versus urban, would Skillnet find a different engagement in smaller towns? One is looking at a retailer or at an enterprise made up of perhaps one or two people. How does one get the time? I know Ms Donnery has spoken about all of the training and everything else but how does one find the time for these people who may list this and perhaps agree that that activity or role would be very suitable? However, it sometimes does not have time and is working out how to do that.

Ms Tracey Donnery

Our area of expertise with regard to engagement in upskilling is that these enterprises make time. They find that time is a barrier both to-----

Senator Aisling Dolan

What types of companies is Ms Donnery referring to?

Ms Tracey Donnery

This is all companies.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Would that even be microenterprises or SMEs also? How do we support them to able to access these services?

Ms Tracey Donnery

Some 93% of our companies are SMEs and over 50% are microenterprises. Some 50% of 25,000 is 12,000 microenterprises. We find that there is a great level of collaboration among companies and a willingness to work together all over the country. We have Skillnet business networks based in every county and operating nationally. What is positive is that there is a great willingness to work together and often the business networks, and the clusters they are part of, are also the same people who are part of the local GAA, for example. There are ways of harnessing that and perhaps it is about showcasing good examples. We do a great deal of work with the retail service sector. The Retail Ireland Skillnet is 25 years old and works with retailers of all scales. I have seen many great examples in retail where people are supporting and providing a range of jobs.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I would love to see some testimonials, in particular from Roscommon and Galway. Does Ms Bird wish to comment?

Ms Lucianne Bird

I will make one comment. Focusing on article 20 on public procurement, that social clause which would see inclusion of people with disabilities and who are distant from the labour market included in procurement would be a great way of working with employers and ensuring that people with disabilities would be included in opportunities moving forward. That is an area on which I know my colleagues have advocated for very strongly with Government Departments. They can speak more clearly on that topic than I can but it is a very important area for us to focus on.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Our new Taoiseach and our former Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris, has been very clear about his focus on the disability sector, which he launched last May, and particularly around the European Year of Skills 2023.

I will leave some time for Mr. McLoughlin to discuss the apprenticeship programme and perhaps a little bit about the further and higher education.

We had the brand new Access to Apprenticeship programme, which is starting in Athlone. The ITs in Athlone and Limerick, for example, have come together for the Technological University of the Shannon. We are seeing all of these new technological universities, TUs, across the country which offer great access at local level in smaller towns as well as cities. Is Mr. McLoughlin familiar with the Access to Apprenticeships programme? It is a 12-week programme that gives people a chance to have a taste of what an apprenticeship is like. If Mr. McLoughlin was talking to a young fellow or girl coming out of school or perhaps in fifth year or transition year, what would be the two or three things he might say, not to me but to them, about why this might be a good fit for that person or why they should check it out? I am trying to promote this now in places like Roscommon and Ballinasloe and I am saying to young people and their parents, in particular, that we have this 12-week taster course in Athlone for the first time ever and it starts in September. I ask them to think about it and go along to the open day. What would Mr. McLoughlin say if he was talking to such people?

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

From personal experience, my view on the apprenticeship even before I entered it was that I would become an electrician afterwards. There are so many other avenues a person can go down. Even in the business I was working with, a fellow who was working with us qualified and is now one of the head men in Glanbia.

Senator Aisling Dolan

It just goes to show.

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

There are so many different avenues one can go down but people are not aware of that. I was not aware of the programme the Senator is talking about but it would certainly be a stepping stone to get people to pursue apprenticeships.

Senator Aisling Dolan

It may suit people who do not enjoy the academic side, such as sitting down and rote learning.

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

That is the thing about it. I find the academic side easier because one can relate it back to something one did or will do in the field. It is a bit more relatable than learning about things you will never use. One can ask the lecturers when a particular aspect is used and they will say it is used to calculate such a thing. It is-----

Senator Aisling Dolan

It is immediate application, nearly.

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

Exactly. You can see where you will use it.

Senator Aisling Dolan

You learn about it and, the next minute, you are doing it.

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

I find that very beneficial.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Some young people ask me why they should bother. They ask whether they will come out with a qualification in a year's time if they do this. Mr. McLoughlin chose to be an electrician, for example.

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

Yes.

Senator Aisling Dolan

The choice for that were probably electrical engineering, electrician-----

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

Automation.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Automation. What are the other choices that the subjects or areas he was studying would have lent themselves to?

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

Physics is a huge one, definitely, as well as maths. I do not think people understand how vital they are to-----

Senator Aisling Dolan

Everything.

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

-----being successful. They are vital to everything but, more so, they are vital to being successful in the apprenticeship. I was not aware how much one needs to be fairly sharp on those subjects.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Did Mr. McLoughlin like maths when he was in school?

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

I did not mind it. I studied physics as well but I was not too pushed on that subject. That was more down to the fact that I could not see myself using it. Little did I know that I would end up using it.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Things change and evolve.

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

They do.

Senator Aisling Dolan

A person's tastes change sometimes and perhaps a person's likes for different subjects also change.

An Cathaoirleach

Does Mr. English wish to make a contribution there?

Mr. Ray English

The Access to Apprenticeship programme to which the Senator referred originated in some way in TU Dublin.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Very good.

Mr. Ray English

It was rolled out then to the Technological University of the Shannon. The second campus will come online later this year.

Senator Aisling Dolan

That is in Athlone in September.

Mr. Ray English

We are also hoping that Munster Technological University, MTU, will take up the programme.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Very good.

Mr. Ray English

Hopefully, it will be rolled out to the five technological universities. The Senator is correct. The course is about ten weeks of trying and tasting a skill. There is also personal development in it-----

Senator Aisling Dolan

Yes.

Mr. Ray English

-----along with a two-week placement. The outcomes are very strong and the programme is very much aimed at those who, in a way, missed the opportunity for an apprenticeship. The minimum entry requirements must equate to an apprenticeship start but it is very strong. Some 70% to 80% of participants on the programme gain employment from it.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Is that not fantastic?

Mr. Ray English

It is a HEA-funded programme with very strong outcomes and that is why it needs to be rolled out further into the ETB sector as well.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I might just get all of our guests to come down to a few of my local secondary schools. If they have time next week, maybe we can arrange that. It is true that it goes back to telling schools, students and parents about this. What do our guests think?

Mr. Ray English

For sure.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I hope, that message will go out from this meeting.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Senator Dolan. I have a few questions for Mr. English and the rest of the panel. Are we making enough of the significance of Worldskills Ireland and its being running concurrently? Mr. McLoughlin spoke about apprenticeships not being promoted in secondary schools. There is an opportunity now that we have the Worldskills Ireland programme in the RDS for two years. It is a big issue. Do our guests believe we have made enough of it in the context of promoting apprenticeships in secondary schools? I told the former Minister, now Taoiseach, Deputy Harris, that I believe the fall-down is the promotion of apprenticeships in schools. I will ask Mr. McLoughlin his view on that in a few seconds but perhaps Mr. English will answer that initially.

Mr. Ray English

No, I do not think we make enough of it. We sold out last year's event and were at capacity. That was just down to health and safety reasons as regards the number of students who can come through the door. There were 300 schools and all 26 counties were represented. We would love to see a model rolled out that would allow us to reach way beyond Leinster, to get much further into Munster and Connacht and to get involved with more schools. One of the ways to do this is to use the champions that we have. These are people who are familiar with it and how it operates. We can bring them back to the schools to talk to parents and to students who are considering their careers to give them the options that are out there. There are a great many pathways in further education through the National Tertiary Office and in apprenticeships through the National Apprenticeship Office. There are a great many options there; we just need to promote them more.

An Cathaoirleach

Does Mr. English believe that an opportunity is being missed and that, for the future, we should plan for a roadshow, as opposed to a WorldSkills event, in each province once a year to promote apprenticeships? Is there a missing link there? I was interested in what Mr. McLoughlin said about guidance counsellors. Most guidance counsellors are into third level education. Apprenticeships are now very much part and parcel of third level education but most guidance counsellors are into non-apprenticeship third level education, going into teaching or whatever. Should we be promoting apprenticeships even more at the level of the provinces and the regions?

Mr. Ray English

I believe there is. The National Apprenticeship Office does a fantastic job of promoting skills. You can see the range. There are now 76 apprenticeships but we can only showcase 30 because of space limitations. How do we get more in there to show the greater diversity in the offerings that are available? That is one element of it. The thought behind national skills week was, since we have something here, can we roll it out and get more going on around the country? In the feedback from the European Year of Skills, you can see there was a map with little flags showing things going on all over Europe. Why can we not do that locally across all of the social partners to show everything that is going on and the work that Skillnet Ireland, AHEAD and other organisations do? These are fantastic inputs. The Irish Traveller Movement is also putting substantial resources into promoting apprenticeships. If we can get all of that together, we can really do something significant. That is really our call to action as to what comes next.

An Cathaoirleach

There is a big shortage of plumbers, electricians, carpenters, blocklayers and other tradespeople in the construction industry. We have a very significant number of migrants coming into Ireland. How do we tap into their potential? How can we offer apprenticeships and so on to them? I know there might be a language barrier or other issues but I believe those issues can be overcome. Does Mr. English think we are doing enough to offer apprenticeships to migrants? They are our future carpenters, electricians, plumbers and so on.

Mr. Ray English

To be honest, we could do more. There are many people coming in with some skills and, with additional modules, they could be put on a fast-track route to a qualification of the same standard as under QQI. We need additional resources to identify people coming in with a skill set, even if it may not match our skill sets. That bridging piece is critical.

An Cathaoirleach

Mr. McLoughlin is in a different position. His father has his own electrical business. Everybody in school would have thought he would go on to work in his father's business and that is the way it is. I will ask about people who are totally outside of the area of apprenticeships. I will use the construction apprenticeships as an example because that is where we have big shortages and they are the apprenticeships we have to keep promoting. In 20 years, we will still not have enough plumbers and carpenters to keep up with demand for retrofitting, new builds, rebuilds and just general maintenance. I was talking to a friend of mine the other day. He is building a house and will have to wait two months to get an electrician. That example is replicated right across the country. Is it frowned upon for a student to do an apprenticeship instead of a regular college course?

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

I think so. Even when I was in with the guidance counsellor, she still wanted me to fill out a CAO form even though I was not going to use it. I did not fill one out in the end because I knew I would not use it but there was a kind of refusal to believe I wanted to go down that path. They push the college side of it. They do not really push you to do apprenticeships or even an arts degree to go on to do something else. They are a bit too one dimensional sometimes and cannot grasp that a person wants to go into a trade. I was always hands-on. I was never going to go to college to study for a level 7 or level 8. You get a level 6 qualification when you do an apprenticeship. If you do another two years and an online course, you get a level 7. I only see it as a base, albeit a brilliant base. It gives you great knowledge and a variety of skills and expertise.

An Cathaoirleach

We have had witnesses before the committee to talk about the STEM subjects. People think you do not need the STEM subjects for the apprenticeships.

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

Of course, you do.

An Cathaoirleach

They are probably more important.

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

They are, yes.

An Cathaoirleach

They are the most important subjects for those going into apprenticeships, especially with the way the whole thing has changed and developed in recent years. I agree with Mr. McLoughlin that the guidance counsellors do not push apprenticeships, although it depends on the school. If you are in a vocational school, they might but that is a big "Might" with a big "M". However, in regular secondary schools, they do not push apprenticeships. Is Mr. McLoughlin telling me that there is a missing link as regards encouraging people to take up apprenticeships? Am I hearing that correctly?

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

I think so. As fifth and sixth year students, we had speakers in but they were never from the construction industry. We had mock interview processes and you could choose the subjects you wanted to do but there were no pushes, speakers, talks or options to go to talks. We did go to Higher Options but there was no real push on the apprenticeship side of things for those who wanted to go down that route.

An Cathaoirleach

When did Mr. McLoughlin do his leaving certificate?

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

In 2020.

An Cathaoirleach

Was he at any of the skills programme show days or showcases? I am not sure if there were any. There were but were they as promoted as heavily as they are now? In fairness to the then Minister, Deputy Harris, who is now the Taoiseach, he really did promote apprenticeships. To use the cliché, it is a case of "a lot done, more to do". Did many people go to the skills shows that were available for them to go to?

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

We did. In fairness, while we were not forced, there were buses booked for the whole year to go up to Higher Options and the WorldSkills event. I found it interesting. WorldSkills is brilliant in a way. I was interested in the electrical area and so spent nearly half the day looking at that but others were going around looking at all of the other different skills. There were different kinds of companies promoting themselves. At the WorldSkills event and at Higher Options, apprenticeships were really promoted. Mercury, Intel and some big car manufacturers were all there promoting apprenticeships but also the college option. They wanted to train you further rather than just getting you your qualification and sending you off. I found that beneficial.

An Cathaoirleach

I have a question for Ms Donnery from Skillnet on lifelong learning. Where are we falling down on lifelong learning? The cliché now is that you are forever learning and that there are always opportunities available. However, for people who have left school, perhaps mothers who have had kids and want to get back into education, are we making it easy for them or is there more we should be doing to encourage people back into education?

Ms Tracey Donnery

There is always more we can do but we are putting a big focus on that through our returner programmes. The Cathaoirleach mentioned construction. One of our networks in the north west is doing a programme for women returners who want to join the construction sector. That might lead them to undertake an apprenticeship but it is more of an entry-level programme with a work placement. We are doing a lot of work on modern methods of construction, often with people who are already in the workforce. With regard to returners, I imagine there is more to do but one of the things we do is to provide upskilling with work experience but also personal development.

A lot of it is about building confidence. We have a programme called Women ReBOOT. This Women ReBOOT programme gives people who have already worked in some kind of technology or digital job in the past and have had time out to support their families or deal with different caring responsibilities the up-to-date technology skills. It also provides camaraderie among women who are in the same boat as well as a lot of personal development and transversal skills and a work placement. Over the years, the programme has demonstrated a 90% progression rate into employment. It encompasses a large cohort of women who are also encouraging other women, many of whom, as was mentioned, have come to Ireland, often with skills or experience, but who need to update their technology skills. We do the same with the med-tech sector and there is a returners programme there also. That is the way in which we do it. The great thing is that employers have shown a great commitment and willingness to support returners, whether they are women or not and to provide them with skills, upskilling and work placements or work projects. We also do a lot of work in that way in the animation sector.

An Cathaoirleach

I want to say to Ms Healy that I am delighted she came in and with the presentation she made. This committee did a lot of work with the Cork Life Centre. I am not sure if she has heard of it. There is one phrase that sums up the principle of it: one size does not fit all. The Cork Life Centre was closing down but this committee played its part in saving it. We visited it and met many students, the same as yourself, for whom one size does not fit all. We are not all the same. If we were, it would be a boring world.

What was Ms Healy's experience in secondary school and in the National Learning Network? How was it different? Is it talking to her peers and realising there are people who are different and that we are not all the same?

Ms Shona Healy

For me, it was very eye-opening. As I was so unable to engage in the mainstream education system, I ran into a lot of trouble and was seen as a problem. I was not able to get through the work, as other people were, and there was not much patience with me either, as I did not have that assessment of needs. On coming to the National Learning Network, I do not know how to explain it but the instructors have a less authoritative role that definitely makes you feel a lot more at ease there. In terms of the community, we are all there together Monday to Friday. It was the first time I could socialise in a way in which I was never able to in mainstream because disabled people tend to socialise together in a very different way than you do outside of that. That was a first for me in a lot ways, engaging with my education in a way that is fulfilling to me and does not hurt my mental health. I do not know if that answers your question.

An Cathaoirleach

Absolutely. Dr. Van Houten, one of the biggest issues that I deal with on a weekly basis in terms of skill supply and labour shortage in Ireland and across Europe, is the granting of work permits. There are an awful lot of skilled people who are unable to get work permits in Ireland, and wrongly so. The people who come here fit into the workplace but when they apply for the work permit, they cannot get one and are sent back. Is there an issue when you deal with EU counterparts regarding work permits and labour shortages? What should we be doing to solve the issue? Could you give a viewpoint on it?

Dr. Gijs van Houten

This is slightly outside my area. In preparation for the meeting, I went through a couple of reports that my colleagues wrote on labour shortages.

As I understand, Ireland is actually one of the countries that is more open-minded when it comes to issuing work permits. In that sense, as a country, Ireland is doing more than most. Obviously, if we have shortages, people need to come from somewhere. There are three ways of doing it: you can train up new people; you can look at your existing workforce to see if people have more to offer than we are aware of, which is along the lines of what I talked about in my contribution; or you can seek to get people in from abroad and make it easier to access work permits but I am not sure that answers the question. It is a solution. It is, of course, a political decision to do so.

An Cathaoirleach

Did Mr. McLoughlin win a silver medal?

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Were you carried shoulder-high into your school? I say that because if the prize was the Young Scientist of the Year, you would be carried shoulder-high. Did the school even recognise that you are a leader in the field of apprenticeships and that you won the prize you won?

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

No, it has not. My brother, who attends the secondary school I went to, came home the other day and told me his woodwork teacher wants me to come in but he has not said anything to me. I have not heard anything to be honest.

An Cathaoirleach

It is amazing and I am sure Mr. English would agree with me that if it was anything else, the winner would be carried shoulder-high into the school, whether as a present or former pupil. That shows the mentality towards apprenticeships and what people think of them. They do not get the recognition they duly deserve. If Mr. McLoughlin is successful, he will be earning a lot more money than a lot of people who go through third level education. We frown on apprenticeships but we depend on these people. I have no doubt that the guidance counsellor in any school, who does not encourage apprenticeships, will still be looking for the plumber, the plasterer or the electrician in ten years' time to build a house or do repairs or whatever the story is.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I will follow on from what the Cathaoirleach said there. That is a fair point in relation to Mr. McLoughlin. A big congratulations to him; it was a hell of a win. Possibly it has not been recognised to the degree that it should have been and that may say where we are in respect of apprenticeships. I have a great interest in apprenticeships, particularly electrical ones, because I am hoping that our Conor will start one in the near future. He did a PLC and that was all right. I am not sure going to college was the greatest move ever, and I thought it was not the greatest move ever at the time. That is something we need to get across the line and it is halfway there. In fairness, the one thing he showed over the summers was an ability to work on a building site. I was going to say I worked on building sites previously but some might say I showed up rather than worked a lot.

What we were talking about earlier were the various route maps. There are two things: traditional apprenticeships and newer apprenticeships. There are pre-apprenticeship courses, which are really good. That probably fits into what Dr. Gijs Van Houten said, namely, ability, opportunity and motivation. In an awful lot of cases, there are people who are not necessarily comfortable starting on a particular education path or getting into work. There are a lot of people who lack some of the skillsets. I know it is said that there are a fair number of soft skills that every kid coming through secondary school needs to have. Apprenticeships sometimes build them in, whether through dealing with the local further education college or whoever else from a point of view of providing them. It is vital that we highlight the necessity and importance of apprenticeships and that we make sure we provide those people with those skills. These are English, maths and communication skills.

An Cathaoirleach

I am conscious that we have to be in the Dáil Chamber at 2 o'clock for the public apology on the Stardust fire. I will add one question to Deputy Ó Murchú's. Should apprenticeship weeks in all schools have to report and evaluate and be very much part of the Department of Education inspectorate to make sure they get the proper profile they need and deserve?

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

The question I will put to Mr. McLoughlin is about how we need to put that piece in play. The witnesses have all spoken about trying to help particular demographics that require bespoke solutions with regard to getting them into the workforce. We see the importance of that with regard to apprenticeships and also that pre-apprentice piece. It is about what else we are missing around that and making sure we provide people with the ability alongside the opportunity. There is always going to be an element of motivation and people will need to be self-starters on some level. What year is Mr. McLoughlin in?

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

I am in phase 6 at the minute.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Are you backlogged or anything at the minute?

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

I thought the Deputy had asked the question already. No, I am not. I am on target to finish within my timeframe. I was told it started at four and a half and I am on target to finish and qualify by September.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

That is good. That is something that needs to be dealt with across the board. I want to ask Mr. McLoughlin about his view of the course and the mix between it and work. Is there anything that could be done to improve it? He is the person who is at it, for want of a better term.

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

The course duration is adequate. There are some aspects of the course that are very outdated. In phase 4, for instance, we learn about stuff like lamps. They ask us whether we have ever seen these lamps. I have taken one out and put a new LED in. The course information is not relevant for some of that stuff. To the best of my knowledge, there is a new curriculum coming in next year so, hopefully, that may sort that issue.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

It might deal with renewables and so forth.

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

Yes, renewables, and even heating and lighting systems. That all needs to be updated. I would be pushing renewables. We are doing solar car charges. All that stuff needs to be furthered because it is the future. That is the way things are heading with automation, smart homes and all that kind of thing.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

The mix is working for Mr. McLoughlin.

Mr. Sean McLoughlin

The mix is working fine, yes.

An Cathaoirleach

I will get Mr. English to conclude because we must finish.

Mr. Ray English

I will make one very quick comment to thank the committee for its work. When I said earlier that the percentage had changed over the years to 51% male and 49% female attendance at WorldSkills, that was down to the committee's work on making reporting of attendance at events part of the inspection methodology. That definitely works.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. English for recognising that. We have a very important event in the Dáil at 2 p.m., so the meeting is adjourned.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.28 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 30 April 2024.