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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE AND SMALL BUSINESS debate -
Wednesday, 12 Feb 2003

Vol. 1 No. 2

EU Legislative Proposals: Presentation.

The clerk has circulated briefing papers on the EU legislative proposals to be considered. I will turn first to a new proposal, COM (2002)711, which was recommended for scrutiny by this committee by the EU scrutiny sub-committee on 30 January. This proposed regulation would replace the current merger regulations for companies with a Community dimension. It will affect only a few Irish companies but would have a significant impact on their development. I have asked the clerk to let us know what companies are involved. Are members agreed that the committee should seek the views of all stakeholders prior to scrutiny of proposals? Agreed.

Members are asked to note the paper outlining proposals where the Department is not the lead Department and the EU sub-committee has recommended no further scrutiny is needed. Is that agreed to? Agreed.

I now turn to two proposals to be scrutinised by the committee. I have set aside 40 minutes to consider each proposal. We will take proposal COM (2002)585 first. This proposal deals with cross border barriers to sales promotions. The Department has provided a briefing note and I welcome the officials who have come to brief the committee. Mr. Eamonn Carey is the principal office and Mr. Danny Kelly is the assistant principal officer from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. They are accompanied by Mr. Eamon Corcoran, principal officer, and Mr. Shay McGovern, assistant principal officer, from the Department of Health and Children who will answer any questions on cross cutting health issues.

I draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. While it is generally accepted that witnesses would have qualified privilege, the committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of a long standing parliamentary practice that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such as way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Carey has ten minutes to explain the Department's position on this proposal and the implications for Ireland if it becomes law. I will then take questions from the members.

I will make some general introductory remarks on the background and the general aspects of the proposal. Then my colleague, Mr. Kelly, will discuss some specific issues of interest to our Department. My other colleagues, Mr. Corcoran and Mr. McGovern, will deal with the health aspects.

This is an amended proposal for an EU regulation. The original proposal appeared in October 2001. The joint committee on European affairs considered that shortly afterwards. Last year, the European Parliament and the European Council extensively considered the proposal. The result of that work, in October 2002, was this amended proposal. We will discuss the changes later.

The purpose of the proposal remains the same as before. It is an internal market measure intended to create a level playing pitch for sales promotions throughout the European Union. It deals with the problems that are caused by many widely differing national regimes covering sales promotions. Sales promotions, means any type of discount on the sale of goods, that is, sales discounts, premiums, price reductions and so forth. The Commission is looking at this from the point of view of the single market so its focus is on problems in doing business across borders. It is a purpose we share and have no difficulty supporting given that we are major beneficiaries of the single market.

The measure is a regulation as distinct from a directive. That means it is binding directly and there is no need for transposing measures. If passed, it becomes part of Irish law on the date indicated, which is January 2005. The legal basis is Article 95.1, which is qualified majority voting. That means no member state has a veto and any member state that has difficulties has to work with other member states. The European decision making procedure here is what is called co-decision, which means the Council and the European Parliament. The European Parliament had a major impact on this measure last year in that it proposed many amendments to the original proposal, many of which were accepted by the European Commission, but not all of them.

As regards the timing, we have been pursuing with the Greek presidency its intentions for this proposal but, while it is considering it at the moment, it does not yet seem to have any definite timetable to put to the member states. The normal process would be to establish a Council working group, chaired by Greece, but that has not yet happened. So, work has not started at Council working group level in Brussels, as yet, but our expectation is that it will fairly soon. I now wish to hand over to my colleague, Mr. Danny Kelly, to discuss some of the specific issues.

Ireland's main concerns with the original proposal were articulated at the European Council working group of meetings in 2002 and at the Council of Ministers for the internal market, consumer affairs and tourism in May 2002. Those concerns related mainly to the issues of below cost sales of alcohol and tobacco. Ireland has a reservation on the amended proposals as a whole. The main Articles about which we are concerned are Articles 3 and 5. Article 3 deals with the use and communication of sales promotions and it has now been amended following discussion in the European Parliament. Our main objection to the original article related to the fact that it states that "member states shall not impose a limitation on the value of a sales promotion". If such a provision remained, below cost sales would have to be allowed. This would have had implications for our sectoral ban which is in operation arising from the existence of the Restrictive Practices (Groceries) Order 1987, which imposes a ban on the below cost selling of groceries. The amended draft excludes below cost selling from the cost of the draft regulation.

The Commission had insisted that its original proposals are in the interests of consumers and the completion of the internal market, and that the ban on below cost sales should be lifted. However, along with us, a number of other member states, including Germany, France, Italy and Greece, were opposed to a ban on prohibitions on below cost selling. The European Parliament's amendments made an exception for below cost sales. The result is the present draft which is acceptable to the Commission and which is now before us.

Another aspect of Article 3 about which we were concerned is that related to a mutual recognition. The article imposes the principle of mutual recognition on the application of remaining national restrictions relating to sales promotions. This means that member states are obliged to respect the right of firms to promote and sell within the EU. This is in the interests of the internal market where the treaty provides that there should be minimum restriction on the movement of goods and services. In practice, that means Ireland cannot prevent consumers - be they wholesale or retail - availing of promotions in another member state, and selling those goods in this State or buying the goods for final use.

In so far as groceries are concerned, under the Groceries Order below cost advertising by or on behalf of a retailer and selling groceries below cost by a retailer in Ireland, would continue to be banned. The key provision of the order is that goods are not sold below the net invoice price. A retailer cannot sell goods in Ireland if he is doing so at a price below his net invoice price. We have reserved our position on this aspect, as we have on the whole regulation. However, on this we need to work through some practical examples with the Commission to ensure that we understand fully how the draft will apply here before we indicate any agreement to the provision.

Another aspect of Article 3, even though it is not stated directly in it, relates to promotional games and contests. This is a responsibility in terms of our briefing of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. That Department has expressed concerns that scope exists in the draft regulation for lotteries which have a sale promotion focus and which we would be prohibited from banning under the draft currently before us. These lotteries would normally either be prohibited or carefully regulated under our gaming and lotteries legislation. Ireland will, therefore, push our view that an amendment to ensure that we continue to be able to regulate all gambling activities or games of chance, be taken on board.

Article 4 of the draft regulation is a transparency provision, designed to protect consumers and companies, particularly small companies, by ensuring that the sales promotion is presented in such a manner that an informed decision can be made as to whether the relevant sales promotion makes it worthwhile to purchase the promoted product or service. Most of the debate at the Council meetings focused on whether the information should be available up front or on request. Discussion on this matter has not finished yet and a balance on this point will be discussed further at the Council's working group.

Article 6 relating to redress is another transparency Article that places on the promoters the burden of proof as to the accuracy of information provided. It is there for the protection of consumers.

Article 7, which concerns sales below cost. There is an amendment which excepts sales below cost, but within two years of the regulation coming into force, Article 7 provides for an assessment of the internal market effects of the differing national prohibitions on below cost selling, and for an assessment of the potential liberalisation of those sales.

That is a run-down from the viewpoint of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

Thank you very much, Mr. Kelly. I note from the briefing that since the current proposals were tabled by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, and circulated in November 2002 to a number of interested parties for views, to date you have only received three replies. From whom did you receive those replies?

Originally we circulated the proposal to virtually the same parties as we have listed in the briefing. We got many replies mainly because they were concerned about the dangers to the Restrictive Practices (Groceries) Order.

In the current draft we have succeeded in having below cost sales excepted from the regulation, subject to our examining the mutual recognition implications. We circulated the new draft in November 2002 and we got three replies. The reason we probably did not get other replies was that most of those parties were happy enough that the Groceries Order appears to them to be safe.

Did the three respondents include RGDATA and the Broadcasting Commission?

RGDATA?

RGDATA was not one of the three who replied. If you like, Chairman, I will tell you who the three respondents were.

Please do, yes.

They were the Licensed Vintners' Association, the Competition Authority and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Was there a time frame? Are you expecting replies from all the other ones?

We asked for a reply as soon as possible. We did not impose a time frame because we knew the debate was not going on during the autumn session in Brussels. However, given that the new draft was circulated in November, I would not expect too many more replies. If there are more amendments to the regulation we will consult those people again, especially if we consider that it will affect their interests.

Thank you very much for your presentation. Are there any questions from members?

Perhaps we could hear from the other witnesses and then put questions to them jointly.

Is that agreed? Agreed. I invite Mr. Eamon Corcoran and Mr. Shay McGovern, Principal Officer and Assistant Principal Officer with the Department of Health and Children, to address the joint committee.

Mr. Eamon Corcoran

Thank you very much, Chairman. I work in the environmental health section of the Department. My remit includes tobacco control. Mr. Shay McGovern from the health promotion unit will deal with alcohol.

Health policy is, and has been for quite some time, very strongly opposed to tobacco use. This is evidenced at both national and EU levels and at international level where we are involved with the World Health Organisation and are participating in the development of a framework convention on tobacco control. The briefing note circulated by my colleagues in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment was prepared in consultation with us and our position is reflected in the section on tobacco.

The one issue of concern to us is that on 2 December last, a tobacco advertising and sponsorship directive was adopted as well as a recommendation on the subject of tobacco control. Our concern is a drafting one. This will require attention and liaison but our concern is to ensure that tobacco advertising and sponsorship falls more into the area of the tobacco advertising and sponsorship directive. We are, however, concerned that no loophole will be opened up through this regulation which might create uncertainty or conflict in regard to the provisions. We believe that issue can be satisfactorily addressed.

Are you in favour of removing tobacco products from the consumer price index to allow Government and committees such as this to do the job which needs to be done?

Mr. Corcoran

Yes, Chairman, that is a position which is strongly supported by the Minister. The difficulty and the dilemma which arises is how the issue is handled in wage negotiations, either locally or through centralised mechanisms. The Central Statistics Office has made the point that within its published figures, it is possible to disaggregate the element in the CPI attributable to tobacco. Obviously, the key question is whether negotiators, particularly union negotiators, are prepared to take the hit on that topic. We know the experience to date.

You are in favour of it being removed.

Mr. Corcoran

Yes, Chairman.

Mr. Shay McGovern

As my colleague, Mr. Corcoran, said, I represent the health promotion unit within the Department of Health and Children. In recent years, we have had some concerns about the rising rates of alcohol consumption in Ireland. In the last decade, Ireland has experienced an increase of 49% per capita in alcohol consumption. We are far ahead of other EU countries, ten of which have experienced a net decrease in alcohol consumption, while three have experienced moderate increases in alcohol consumption. A result of the increase is that there has been a huge rise in alcohol related harm, that is, accidents, falls and attendances at accident and emergency departments etc.

Our particular concern in respect of this regulation is that any sales promotions, discounts or unrestricted advertising run contrary to the responsible serving of alcohol and incite drinkers to engage in high risk drinking. The Minister for Health and Children established a strategic task force on alcohol early last year and it reported in May of last year. It made some recommendations to protect the population at large, particularly children and adolescents, and to reduce the pressure on them to drink by limiting exposure to sales promotions, advertising and some other marketing tactics engaged in by alcohol manufacturers. The position of the health promotion unit is that we have sought the exclusion of alcohol from this regulation on public health grounds.

Have any studies been done to show that the advertising of alcohol related products is having a serious impact on the consumption of alcohol among adolescents and young people generally? Are you satisfied that the implementation of this directive will allow the Minister for Health and Children to decide policy without being thwarted in devising a strategy of implementation to deal with the problem of alcohol abuse among young people?

Have you discovered a link between the sponsorship of various sports teams and the sale of alcohol? It is related to Deputy Hogan's question.

As so many studies have been done on alcohol, we know the damage it does. Have there been any suggestions as to an alternative? What action has been taken as a result of the study produced last May? Did it recommend that alternative facilities be put in place for young people? Did it simply state that one should not advertise, that there should be shutters on off-licenses and that children should not be allowed into pubs with their parents? Did it suggest an alternative?

In the past ten years, there has been an increase of 49% in alcohol consumption in Ireland. Is that right?

Mr. McGovern

That is per capita.

This increase is the highest relative to all other EU member states. Is that right?

Mr. McGovern

Yes.

In some EU member states, there has been a decrease in consumption.

Mr. McGovern

The position in terms of consumption is that Ireland has had the highest rate of consumption in the past ten years. We are now second on the EU table of alcohol consumption per capita. Luxembourg is the only country ahead of us.

In terms of advertising, we undertook a study called the Impact of Alcohol Advertising on Teenagers in Ireland. It concluded that teenagers recognise alcohol advertising as a lifestyle to which they would like to aspire. They feel that the majority of alcohol advertisements are aimed at adolescents, that they encourage excessive drinking and that they depict a lifestyle which teenagers and adolescents would like to have. In terms of the responses, it is clear that much alcohol advertising breaches many of the regulatory codes in place. Because of that, the Minister for Health and Children is actively considering the statutory alternatives available to him.

In terms of sponsorship, I am not aware of any direct studies which link sponsorship to increases in alcohol consumption. Research here shows that some of the reasons for the increase in consumption relate to advertising, economic circumstances in terms of greater disposable income, and sales promotion in terms of drinks manufacturers presenting to colleges and pubs where, for example, they allow them to sell alcohol at a particular rate all night.

The strategic task force report, published last May, contains a recommendation about providing information, education and encouraging sporting organisations to consider alternatives to alcohol and alcohol sponsorship. Those recommendations have recently been the subject of a Government decision which will result in the establishment of an interdepartmental group, to meet next month. It will co-ordinate the responses of Departments to the recommendations.

Some drinks advertised, such as shots, have a high alcohol content. Are they legal and is it legal for publicans to serve cocktails of two or three drinks that are heavily intoxicating?

This is a draft regulation and it will be amended before it becomes a decision under the co-decision mechanism, so our input is happening at a point in what is a fluid process. It is assumed the regulation will come into effect from 1 January 2004. Is that the case and is it predicated on the Greek Presidency completing the programme?

Is the below-cost selling issue excluded from the current draft regulation? Has the Commission given up on it or will it continue to press the Council of Ministers for its inclusion? Could it re-emerge as an issue?

What is the likely outcome on the gambling question? The tobacco advertising and sponsorship directive, which appears to have overtaken this regulation, contains an assertion that the regulation will be brought into line with it. Is that an expectation or will it definitely happen?

The most recent Intoxicating Liquor Act contained an amendment in my name and accepted by the Government to the effect that individual bottles and cans would be labelled with the selling premises, be they off-licences or supermarkets, to provide a means of identification of the retail outlet where young people were caught congregating, selling or drinking alcohol. It has not yet been brought into force. Is the health promotion unit aware of it and does it support its early implementation?

I understand the regulations are more concerned with cross-country borders than the Border. The Good Friday Agreement provides for greater harmonisation than hitherto. Some of the regulations apply to countries such as Belgium and the Netherlands. This country has effectively been a single market for a long time in terms of supermarkets and the transfer of goods. In view of this, I am uncomfortable with the reference to cross-border and cross-national frontiers. We should liberalise our trade in every way possible between the North and the South and remove all of the few remaining barriers.

Most public representatives have received representations from the public about the abuse of alcohol. The Celtic tiger has created more money and there is a greater public awareness of the issue. Some drinks have caused great difficulties, for example Red Bull mixed with vodka. How far have we gone in terms of being able to ban the importation of such products if they are against the national interest and the health interests of young people? Surely we can ban the happy hour type of operation, where drinks are sold at discount prices. Will the Department introduce legislation to remove the happy hour?

The practice of charging a once-off payment in return for an unlimited consumption of alcohol should be banned. It has been implemented in some venues outside Dublin. If customers pay €30 or €40 to drink all night they will drink without limit. Instead of expressing concerns about alcohol, the Department should propose legislation or regulations to make these kinds of activity illegal. The Garda Síochána should be given the powers of enforcement because stern action is required. Otherwise we will not get the desired results.

What protection will be in place to ensure the removal of barriers to cross-border trade between European Union member states is not abused? For example, what is to stop companies exporting illegal substances from here to other EU countries? I understand a company in Ireland manufactures and exports a soap that lightens skin, despite the fact that it is a health hazard. Have we any mechanisms to stop the manufacture of products that could be a danger to others even when they are not sold in this country?

I call on members of the delegation to respond to the points raised.

Mr. Corcoran

Deputy Howlin inquired about the tobacco advertising and sponsorship directive and the potential uncertainty between its application and the application of this regulation. I am satisfied the matter will be resolved. It is a technical issue, there is no issue of principle involved. Elements of the potential problem are flagged in recital 20 of document COM (2002) 585 issued on 25 October 2002. The tobacco advertising and sponsorship directive was adopted on 2 December. As the two documents were close together, there has not yet been revision of the regulation. I am confident that there is not an underlying problem. It is a matter of keeping an eye on the ball.

Mr. McGovern

I understand there is no ban on any particular legal drink, such as shots, being sold in pubs. The health promotion unit has worked with a number of partners during the last three or four years, particularly in the last two years when we launched an alcohol awareness campaign. One of the partners with whom we have been working is the drinks industry in developing a responsible serving of alcohol programme. There are three dimensions to the programme, namely, drink driving, serving intoxicated people and serving under-age patrons. The drinks industry and ourselves are trying to develop a code of responsible serving countrywide. It is in place for about a year and approximately 1,200 participants have taken part in the programme so far. We hope to extend it this year. If the programme is developed countrywide, we hope there will be some responsible serving at bar level.

In response to Deputy Howlin's question on labelling, I understand the Commission on Liquor Licensing looked at that recommendation. The drinks industry has some difficulty in terms of the mechanics. While the commission will present its final report in May, I do not know whether it will address the issue.

It was passed by the Oireachtas, which brought it into effect.

Mr. McGovern

My understanding is that no progress has been made on the issue. The issue was raised in terms of payment at the door for drinking and the holy hour. The Commission on Liquor Licensing is currently examining the licensing system. The commission was established by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and I think its final report will be published in March.

We share the concerns expressed by Deputies and Senators on promotions, which is one of the basic reasons why we want alcohol excluded from the regulation. We are convinced that if it is included without restriction, it will result in a proliferation of such promotions.

I am intrigued at the response that the labelling of cans and bottles is subject to the commission on alcohol, because it is already part of the Intoxicating Liquor Act passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas. It just requires the signature of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to bring it into effect. The question was whether the Department of Health and Children's promotion unit would be enthusiastic about having it brought into effect. Whatever difficulties it poses for the drinks industry, it should be done, and the Oireachtas must have thought so because it passed the legislation.

Mr. McGovern

The international evidence on labelling of alcohol products is that it does not have much influence on drinking behaviour. The issue with which we are dealing is different in that the source of purchase would be identified and the Department of Health and Children would support such a recommendation.

On the increase in alcohol consumption of 49% over the past ten years, has that happened in latter years or is it spread over the ten years? Did the extension of the liquor licensing hours have an effect in the last two years?

Can I have an answer to my question relating to liberalisation?

On Deputy Lynch's question on whether the regulation could conflict with product safety, the only answer I can give is that we do not think so, but we should have a look at that aspect. Certainly it does not intend to do so, but we have seen in other areas, such as alcohol and tobacco, that there are clashes between the free market objective and other policy issues such as health. I am sure the commission would say it does not wish to undermine product safety in any way, because it is also a consumer protection measure. However, we will look into the matter together with our consumer protection colleagues.

On Senator Leyden's question about the cross-Border aspect, I do not think there is any major interaction between this proposal and North-South issues. As the Senator said, there is already, effectively, a single market. There are some differences such as currency and below-cost selling, which is not the case in the North. However, there are no adverse implications. If anything, this should help in general terms to remove differences between member states. On the whole the requirement should have a positive effect.

Deputy Howlin asked about timing. The draft regulation includes the date 1 January 2005. However, we do not know how long it will take. It has already taken more than a year. We think it could last this year and possibly into next year and our Presidency period. The issue could come to the boil around this time next year. We think the Commission might be keen to get it through before additional member states join in April or May 2004.

On the below-cost selling, we think the Commission has thrown in the towel in this regard. Approximately seven or eight member states had major problems with this matter. It included a review after two years, which sounds like a bit of a token. We cannot say the issue will never again emerge, but we think it is off the agenda, subject to our checking out the implications of what is called "mutual recognition", which means we cannot use our laws to impact on incoming services or goods. Mr. Kelly will answer Deputy Howlin's question on gambling.

Promotional contests and games can be a feature of sales promotions in all sorts of shapes and sizes. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform was concerned that our law could be circumvented by this regulation, if enacted as it stands. We are discussing a regulation which would be directly applicable after it was signed, so we would have a difficulty with our own law.

Accordingly, that Department, when this matter comes up for discussion at the Council working group, will propose amendments to Article 3 and possibly to the definitions, in order to protect our position. We are anxious to continue to protect this important area because there would be social and public order consequences if we were not in control of it. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and ourselves will be proposing an amendment to ensure that our gambling and lotteries legislation is not circumvented by this regulation.

I am intrigued by the suggestion that there is no international evidence to support the idea that project packaging, particularly in the alcohol and tobacco area, does not influence decision to purchase. I would be interested to hear from the health promotion unit if there is similar evidence in relation to advertising. With regard to tobacco and, to a lesser extent, alcohol, Ireland has led the way in correlating the advertising of products and the rate of its uninhibited consumption. I will be interested to hear international evidence and the view of the health promotion unit on the advertising of alcohol and its effect on consumption.

Deputy Howlin, who is a former Minister for Health, referred to the legislation which has not been enacted. Does the health promotion unit have a view on that and on the lack of traceability? There was provision in the legislation for the phenomenon of young people obtaining alcohol, drinking it in the vicinity of the supermarket complex where it was bought and the difficulty for the gardaí in establishing that the alcohol came from the particular outlet. There is a public demand for legislation regarding traceability. The only alternative to such legislation would be a national identity card system, which I support. In the absence of a truly national identity card system, labelling of alcohol is essential. I realise that this would impose a cost on providers, but it may be an important principle. I would be interested to hear the view of the health promotion unit on that.

Mr. McGovern

There has been a steady rise in consumption in the past decade. Between 1989 and 2001, consumption per capita rose from 7.6 litres to 11.4 litres of pure alcohol. This represents a rise of approximately 49%. Most other European countries experienced a decrease in consumption or a moderate increase.

I referred to health warnings. The international evidence presented to the task force on alcohol, and of which we were already aware, is that health warnings do not have a huge impact on drinking patterns. We are not dismissing the proposal out of hand. I mentioned earlier that the Minister for Health and Children is looking at statutory means of restricting alcohol promotion, marketing and advertising. He is looking at the alternatives which are available to him at present.

The study to which I referred earlier, which was undertaken on behalf of the health promotion unit, was on the impact of alcohol advertising on adolescents and young teenagers. The study found a link between alcohol advertising through promoting positive images of a desirable lifestyle. Young people perceive alcohol advertisements as being aimed directly at them. This is an issue of grave concern to the health promotion unit and to the Department.

A segment of the alcohol awareness campaign was aimed at off-licences. We targeted parents, siblings and people over 18 to prevent third party buying, that is, buying drink for consumption off the premises by underage drinkers. That element of the campaign was relatively successful and the feedback was good.

The issue of identification and labelling of cans is not one for the Department of Health and Children, although it is an initiative which the health promotion unit would support. I recognise the difficulties involved in policing and enforcing such an initiative, particularly in respect of third party buying.

I was involved in the introduction of the Single European Act. Have some of the regulations not become obsolete because of the effect of the Internet? I receive many unsolicited sales pitches on my computer from pharmaceutical suppliers regarding drugs which can be bought without prescription. Does the Department scrutinise Internet sales pitches, which are now causing a phenomenal change in the way sales are transacted?

We do not have a simple answer to that. Our Department is not involved in seeking to control the Internet. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform looks at certain aspects of Internet activities. Nevertheless, the Internet is relevant to this matter because much sales promotion is taking place through television and the Internet and there are no real national boundaries anymore. This is a fact of life we must accept.

On behalf of the committee I thank the two principal officers, Mr. Carey and Mr. Corcoran, and the two assistant principal officers, Mr. Kelly and Mr. McGovern, for coming here to make their presentations and for answering our queries. I thank them for their help.

On the basis that this matter is ongoing——

It will be ongoing for the next four and a half years.

Yes. In 12 months time, if we are all still here and we have not succumbed to drink, we might get an update on the issues that have been raised today. That would be beneficial.

That would be no problem whatsoever. I thank our guests very much.

That concludes consideration of the proposal. The clerk will arrange for a report recording the committee's opinions on the proposal to be laid before both Houses, as required under the committee's terms of reference.

We now turn to proposal COM (2002) 701. This will offer temporary and agency workers the same rights and benefits as permanent workers from their first day of work at a company except in relation to pay where member states may provide that these rights shall not apply in respect of an assignment which can be accomplished in a period not exceeding six weeks. On behalf of the committee I welcome the officials appearing to brief us on this. I welcome Mr. Bill Jestin, principal officer, and Mr. Michael Pender, assistant principal, from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

I should draw witnesses' attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. While it is generally accepted that witnesses would have qualified privilege the committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it.

May I ask a procedural question? I understood the Irish Congress of Trade Unions was to be present for this discussion and that we were going to invite them to make a presentation. It would be useful if——

We are going to invite them with the permission of the committee for the next meeting.

Are they in the building now? It would be useful for them to be present.

We will check if they are available.

Mr. Bill Jestin

We are aware of their interest in these matters.

Both groups work closely together. We can make the report from this meeting available to them before they come to address us at our next meeting.

They have circulated detailed proposals for amendments to us. Since this proposal is of such a technical and detailed nature it would be useful if they were present.

We will not make a decision on this today anyway and they will be here at the next meeting. I have been informed that they are not available at the moment. As they will be here on 26 February we will go ahead and ask Mr. Jestin and Mr. Pender to make their submissions.

Mr. Jestin

Thank you, Chairman. It might be useful if as a background for the committee I say a few words about the origin of this draft directive and other recent directives that have emerged from the EU. Under the social agreement which was added to the EU treaty following the Maastricht treaty, a new procedure was put in place under which the social partners at European level could be asked by the European Commission to conclude framework agreements leading to directives in certain areas of employment rights. This system has worked successfully in the case of parental leave where a 1996 directive was transposed here by the Parental Leave Act 1998 in the case of part-time work where the 1997 directive was transposed by the Protection of Employees (Part-Time Work) Act 2001 and in the case of fixed term work where a Bill to implement this directive in Ireland is at present being drafted by the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel to the Government.

In the case of the temporary agency workers, however, the discussions between the social partners which commenced in Brussels in June 2000 ran into difficulties. After 11 months of discussions the social partners were obliged to report back to the Commission in May 2001 that they could not reach an agreement as to the treatment of the conditions of employment of temporary agency workers. The employers' representatives favoured such conditions being determined in comparison with other agency workers whereas the representatives of the workers wished that this comparison should be made with the permanent employees in the place of work to which the agency worker was assigned, commonly referred to as the end-user company.

The initiative to move matters forward then fell to the Commissioner for Employment and Social Affairs, Commissioner Diamantopoulou. Accordingly, on 20 March 2002 the Commission formally published its proposal for a directive in this area. This proposal provides that a temporary agency worker can compare himself or herself with an employee in the end-user company after a period of assignment of six weeks. The Commission's draft directive has been the subject of detailed article by article examination in the relevant Council working group, the social affairs questions group, since June 2002. Simultaneously, the Employment and Social Affairs Committee of the European Parliament has been examining this proposal under the co-decision process set down in the Maastricht treaty.

The European Parliament in a first reading at plenary session on 21 November 2002 adopted some 140 amendments. Subsequently, on 28 November 2002, the Commission published a revised proposal which incorporates approximately 30 of the amendments proposed by the European Parliament. This revised version, document (2002) final, dated 28 November 2002, has been circulated to members of the joint committee. It remains under ongoing consideration in the social affairs question group in Brussels.

In addressing the issue of the draft directive at the last meeting of the Council of Ministers on Employment and Social Affairs in Brussels on 3 December 2002, the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Fahey, said that Ireland remains concerned that the Commission's amended proposal could still have a negative impact on existing agency jobs in Ireland and could damage future job creation and result in administrative complexities that would hold back job prospects. The Minister of State referred to the connection between the directive and the Lisbon strategy where the objective is to seek to find a fair balance between the security which workers seek through a guarantee of basic rights and the flexibility which employers see as a stimulus to economic development and a source of genuine job creation. He emphasised that what Ireland wanted in the negotiations were practical, effective and fair solutions for all concerned, namely, the agency worker, the employment agency and the end-user company.

The draft directive remains under consideration in the social affairs questions group in Brussels. Our understanding is that the current Greek Presidency of the EU hopes to reach a common position on the revised proposal by the end of its presidency in June this year. In that event, it could be expected that the final proposal will be agreed under the co-decision process with the European Parliament, second reading, by end 2003. In fact, the latest meeting of the social affairs questions group on this issue took place in Brussels yesterday and my colleague, Mr. Michael Pender, attended the meeting together with Mr. Paul Cullen, our Social and Employment Affairs Counsellor in the Irish Mission in Brussels. I will ask Michael to bring us up to date with the current state of the dossier in a moment.

Before doing so I should say that, as negotiations are at a delicate stage in relation to this draft directive, we may not be in a position to answer members' questions in public session on certain sensitive issues as fully as we would wish. However, we are here to be as helpful and as informative as we can be.

Mr. Michael Pender

Yesterday's meeting was the ninth meeting of the group and the third during the Greek Presidency. Yesterday it discussed for the first time the recitals to the directive. There are 22 recitals, the whereas clauses as they are known. This was done in order to tidy up the wording of these recitals with the amendments to the various articles in the directive which has been the subject of a number of amendments in the working group over the last number of months. This was to provide consistency across the text of the directive as a whole.

A further meeting of the social affairs questions group will be held next Tuesday, 19 February 2003. Following this, the proposal will be discussed at COREPER which is the committee of permanent representatives, or effectively, the ambassadors of the 15 member states of the Union. That meeting will take place on 26 February. As is the general practice, COREPER will, on the advice of the Greek Presidency, decide what format the discussions at the next Council of Social Affairs Ministers will take. That meeting is due to take place on 6 March 2003.

These discussions could be in the format of a political orientation debate on the outstanding issues that remain to be resolved across the 15 member states. The orientation debate will be aimed at identifying areas of possible political compromise in order to move the dossier forward with a view to reaching a common position, under the co-decision process, of all 15 EU member Ministers at the June Council in 2003. The Greek Presidency will be hoping to bring it to a common position with a view to moving it forward to second stage of the co-decision process with the European Parliament in the second half of the year.

Mr. Pender, we have to be out of here by 4 o'clock. We are asking the other two organisations to return the next day to make their presentations. If time does not permit the officials to respond today we can invite them back to conclude their question and answer session.

I presume that this question applies strictly to the European Union citizens or does it apply to other citizens working in Ireland? Will they be affected by this directive when it is finalised?

By way of methodology I think it would be wasteful to take too much time questioning now without the other relevant parties being present. They have particular proposals which I could go through here because I have all the congress proposals, but that would be wasteful in the context of them then coming to make their own presentation.

I propose that we not separate the two and that we invite both officials back to the next meeting, not to make another presentation but to be available to answer questions in the presence of the other two organisations. I think that would be useful. By way of observation, this is a very important directive. Perhaps it is because of the nature of the Celtic tiger but we have the highest proportion of agency-employed employees in the European Union. Some 5.2% of our employees are employed by such agencies compared to a European average of 2.2%. It is of particular relevance and it is important that we afford all such employees the same rights as workers as are given to other employees and it is important that we get this right.

With the permission of the officials and members we will defer until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 26 February. I thank Mr. Bill Jestin and Mr. Michael Pender, principal officer and assistant principal officer of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, for their attendance. I accede to your requests and to Deputy Howlin's proposal to defer the matter until that date.

Mr. Jestin

Senator Leyden asked whether it would apply just to EU citizens. Our understanding is that it will be a matter for implementation and transposition at our own member state level. Our intention as always would be that everybody employed here under a contract of employment, regardless of their country of origin, is equally covered by our employment protection legislation.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.45 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 26 February 2003.
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