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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE AND SMALL BUSINESS debate -
Wednesday, 22 Oct 2003

Vol. 1 No. 25

EU Food Hygiene Proposals: Presentation.

Before welcoming the officials from the Department of Agriculture and Food and from the Food Safety Authority of Ireland to speak about EU proposals on food hygiene, I remind members of the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or mention an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members who wish to make a declaration on any matter being discussed may do so now or at the beginning of their contribution. Members are also reminded that if there is a possibility of there being a conflict of interest they should make a declaration of interest either now or at the start of their contribution.

We are here to discuss COM (2003) 33, 33.1 and 33.2, amended proposal for a regulation of the European Parliament and of the council of the hygiene and foodstuffs. I welcome back Mr. Bert O'Reilly and Ms Paula Barry-Walsh from the Department of Agriculture and Food. I also welcome Mr. Peter Whelan, Mr. Ray Ellard and Ms Dorothy Guina-Doran from the Food Safety Authority of Ireland. I call on the officials to make their presentation after which members may make their contributions. We had intended to revisit the issue somewhat earlier following the delegations' attendance at our meeting on 21 May, when it was agreed that the Department would provide additional briefing to include a regulatory impact assessment report. Due to the pressure of other work on the committee, we have only been able to return to this matter this morning. I call Mr. O'Reilly.

Mr. Bert O’Reilly

I thank you Chairman. I will start with a brief outline of the background to the proposals. In its White Paper on Food Safety of 12 January 2000, the European Commission set out its plans for a pro-active new food policy to modernise existing legislation into a more coherent and transparent set of rules, reinforcing controls from the farm to the table and increasing the capability of the scientific advice system, so as to guarantee a high level of human health and consumer protection in the area of food safety.

The strategic priorities of the White Paper were: to create a European food safety authority; to consistently implement a farm to table approach towards food legislation; to establish the principle that feed and food operators should have primary responsibility for food safety in that member states need to ensure surveillance and control of these operators and the Commission should test the performance of member states' control capabilities through audits and inspections.

In July 2000 the EU Commission published proposals to consolidate, update and simplify existing Community legislation on food hygiene. It is important to emphasise that for the most part, many of these proposals already exist in current EU legislation, which had evolved in a more fragmented sector-by-sector way over the past 30 years or so. In all, 17 directives, dating back to 1964, are being revised and reorganised under five new proposals, which will provide for: hygiene of foodstuffs, which for ease of reference we call H1; specific hygiene rules for food of animal origin, H2; official controls on products of animal origin intended for human consumption, H3; animal health rules governing the production, placing on the market and importation of products of animal origin intended for human consumption, H4; and a housekeeping type of proposal which will repeal and-or amend certain directives on food hygiene, H5.

There are a number of basic principles underlying the Commission's proposals as follows. The first is the introduction of a "farm to table" approach towards food hygiene policy. As I have mentioned, currently there is no systematic and all embracing hygiene regime covering all food in all sectors, but more of a patchwork of rules for specific sectors and types of produce with gaps notably at primary production level.

A second important principle underpinning these proposals is that food business operators will be given primary responsibility for the safety of the food they produce. This principle is facilitated by the development of hazard analysis and critical control point systems, HACCP systems, and is in line with internationally accepted procedures. HACCP systems can take into account the variety of different operations, both in terms of products those operations produce and the scale or size of those operations, and provide operators with the flexibility to adapt an "own checks" control system to the specific requirements of their operation or business.

A third key principle is the traceability of all food and food ingredients. To achieve this registration of all food businesses and appropriate record keeping is proposed. Producers should also have in place procedures for the withdrawal of product from the market in the event of it presenting a serious risk to consumer health.

A fourth principle is that the proposals recognise the need for flexibility in a number of areas. It is accepted that the implementation of hygiene rules has in the past proved difficult in the area of traditional food production and in food businesses in remote islands, mountain areas or geographically isolated regions. Accordingly, the proposals make provision for member states to adapt the rules to such local situations, since they are better placed to judge and find appropriate solutions, provided always that the basic principle of food hygiene safety is not compromised.

Even though HACCP systems are now widely implemented in food business operations, the proposals recognise that the implementation of a HACCP system involves specialised skills which some small and medium enterprises may not have readily available. Therefore, special arrangements to facilitate HACCP implementation are proposed, in particular by providing for the use of procedures set out in guides for the application of HACCP principles.

Excluded from the scope of the proposals is the direct supply by the producer of small quantities of primary products to the final consumer or to local retail establishments directly supplying the final consumer. As a matter of subsidiarity, such activities can be addressed by individual member states.

The committee is essentially looking at the proposals contained in H1 and H2 and I will now outline the key provisions of those proposals. The proposal for a European Parliament and Council Regulation on the hygiene of foodstuffs, H1, is a general proposal on food hygiene and will apply to all food business operators. It deals with the standards of premises, the suitability of equipment, personal hygiene of operatives and handling of foodstuffs. The key provisions of H1 are: all food business operators will be registered; all food business operators will have prime responsibility for the safety of the food they produce; it will require the implementation of HACCP systems by food business operators with the exception of primary producers, essentially farmers and hunters; the proposal provides for the establishment of guides to good practice by the food sectors so as to give to food business operators guidelines on food safety and implementation of HACCP; and flexibility for food businesses in remote areas, traditional methods of food production and implementation of HACCP is also provided for.

As food of animal origin can present a more serious risk to consumers, the proposal for a European Parliament and Council regulation laying down specific hygiene rules for food of animal origin, H2, provides for specific hygiene requirements for processed and unprocessed products of animal origin; for example, meat, poultry meat, milk, eggs, fish and molluscs, farmed and wild game, etc. Again, many of these proposals are contained in various pieces of current EU legislation and the purpose of the H2 proposal is to reiterate those requirements in a more focused and co-ordinated manner.

The key provisions of H2 are: food business operators covered by this proposal will be registered and, depending on the level of risk to public health, will be required to be inspected and approved by the competent authority; products of animal origin being placed on the market shall bear either an official health mark or an identification mark applied by the food business operator - the official health mark will be applied by an official veterinarian; member states may adapt some requirements to accommodate the requirements of establishments situated in regions suffering from geographic constraints and serving only the local market; measures covering the importation of food of animal origin from third countries and the proposal will not apply to retail unless specifically indicated to the contrary.

These proposals are relevant to all food business operators from primary production up to the point of sale to the consumer. On their entry into force all food business operators will require to be registered and, depending on the level of risk, posed by a food business, it will require to be approved by the competent authority. Food business operators, apart from primary producers, will be required to implement HACCP systems and maintain a record for traceability purposes. Slaughterhouses will be required to maintain food chain information. Primary producers will be required to implement guides to good hygiene practice aimed at controlling hazards likely to be encountered in primary production and associated activities. As previously stated, most of these requirements are already part of existing legislation.

On balance, it is considered that the proposals contained in H1 and H2 will not have an adverse impact on food businesses for the following reasons. The need to ensure food safety and guarantee consumer protection has long been recognised by legitimate food business operators as an absolute priority and, accordingly, many food business operators are already implementing measures along the lines envisaged in these proposals. Many of the proposals contained in the Commission's food hygiene package already exist in current food hygiene legislation. The objective of this recast is to bring about a more harmonised set of regulations, where the emphasis is on achieving food safety objectives rather than concentrating, as heretofore, on a detailed prescriptive set of measures to achieve those objectives.

The implementation of HACCP systems will make for simpler legislation limited to setting of food safety objectives. HACCP is already a compulsory element in many food business operations. Therefore, it is hoped that food business operators - both large and small - will find this simplified and transparent set of proposals easier to apply. While operators will have a clear responsibility to ensure the food they produce is safe, the proposals afford them more freedom and flexibility in deciding how best to achieve that objective in respect of their own premises.

Both proposals provide for exemptions and flexibility. While H1 will require all food businesses to be registered it will not apply to the direct supply by the producer of small quantities of primary products to the final consumer or to local retail establishments directly supplying the final consumer.

While H2 will generally apply to producers of products of animal origin, it will not apply, inter alia, to: the direct supply, by the producer, of small quantities of primary products to the final consumer or to local retail establishments directly supplying the final consumer; the direct supply, by the producer, of small quantities of meat from poultry and lagomorphs, which my veterinary colleagues tell me are rabbits and hares, slaughtered on the farm to the final consumer or to local retail establishments directly supplying such meat to the final consumer as fresh meat; hunters who supply small quantities of wild game or wild game meat directly to the final consumer or to local retail establishments directly supplying the final consumer; and, unless expressly indicated to the contrary, H2 will not apply to retail activities.

Both H1 and H2 proposals provide flexibility for member states to introduce national rules to adapt certain requirements of the proposals. The national measures shall have the aim of enabling the continued use of traditional methods, at any of the stages of production, processing or distribution of food, and accommodating the needs of food businesses situated in regions that are subject to special geographical constraints. In other cases, national measures shall apply only to the construction, layout and equipment of establishments. Similarly, given that HACCP is already operated by most food businesses and that the proposal is consolidating and amending existing legislation, it is not expected that the proposals will create extra investment requirements to bring businesses up to the required standard.

Four of the proposals, including H1 and H2, in the Commission's food hygiene package fall under the co-decision procedure. The European Parliament delivered its opinion at first reading on H1 and H2 in May 2002. The Agriculture Council, under the Spanish Presidency, reached political agreement on H1 in June 2002. Political agreement on H2 was reached under the Danish Presidency in December 2002.

It is now expected that a common position on the four proposals, H1, H2, H3 and H5 will be adopted by the Council on or by the middle of November 2003 and will then be referred to the European Parliament so as to permit a second reading of the proposals. The new regulations will be applicable 18 months after the date on which they entered into force but not earlier than 1 January 2006. Following publication of its White Paper the EU Commission undertook extensive consultation. It received comments from more than 100 interested parties, including other EU institutions, EU member states, including Ireland, third countries, representatives of the food and drinks industry and representatives of agriculture, retail distribution and consumer groups. These views were taken into account in drawing up the Commission's proposals.

The Departments of Agriculture and Food, Health and Children and the Food Safety Authority of Ireland and the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources have been involved in discussions on the proposals at EU level. Co-ordination of Ireland's position on these proposals has also taken place between these agencies. Similarly, the FSAI has held consultations with interested groups. The artisan food group met to consider the implications of these proposals and has also had consultations within its mollusc and shellfish safety committee. The members of the Food Agency Co-operative Council have recently been circulated with the text of these proposals. While the main thrust of the proposals is to provide consumers with the best possible guarantees of food safety they do contain provision for flexibility and implementation of national rules in a transparent manner. During the negotiation of these proposals Ireland pressed for flexibility and intends to avail fully of these provisions.

Accordingly, we will consult with all interested parties with a view to assessing where possibilities for such flexibility exist.

Many of the concerns we expressed on the last occasion have been met. Who will be the competent authority for the purposes of the regulations?

Mr. O’Reilly

That has not yet been decided. In all probability the regulations will come under service contract with the FSAI. A political decision on who will be the competent authority has yet to be made.

Was the Food Safety Authority of Ireland consulted about the regulations and, if so, are they satisfied with them?

Mr. O’Reilly

The Food Safety Authority attended all the meetings at Council working party level on H1, H2 and in relation to controls.

Would that authority not be the competent authority for the purpose of the regulations?

Mr. O’Reilly

My colleague, Mr. Peter Whelan, will reply in that regard.

Mr. Peter Whelan

We have contracts with 48 official agencies under the service contracts including, the Departments of Agriculture and Food, Communications, Marine and Natural Resources and the health boards regarding enforcement all food legislation in Ireland. If the regulations are to be considered food law, they should be inserted into the service contracts with the relevant agencies. The relevant parts of each of the regulations will then be enforced by the agencies on the ground.

Is that the standard being met by everyone? Who sets the standards?

Mr. Whelan

We meet with many groups such as the artisan food producers and the mollusc and shellfish safety committee. We also have a retail forum of the multiples involved, including the catering industry. We meet regularly to form guides to good hygiene practice as recommended in the regulations. Much of the industry would then use those guidelines to comply with the regulations.

Most of the information we have received today relates to H1 and H2 regulations that are already enforced in Ireland. We have heard most of what has been said in the context of food hygiene debates. Is the FSAI satisfied with our existing regime on food safety? What types of foods are in isolated geographical areas? I always thought food was either safe or not safe. What are the isolated products that would be regarded as exceptions and would require flexibility?

In his presentation, Mr. O'Reilly said small quantities of primary products to the final consumer are excluded from the scope of the proposals. What is meant by small quantities? The local authorities provide veterinary inspections and local health boards operate in the area of health. How do they conflict with the work undertaken by the FSAI? Are they included in the 48 agencies mentioned? I did not realise we had so many agencies.

The origin of foodstuffs is currently a major issue. There is much debate on our primary producers and the importation of Brazilian and Argentinean beef under the various agreements reached. Concern is being expressed that such imports are coming in without traceability while our local primary producers are expected to provide information regarding traceability of their farm production. How will regimes that will provide consumer confidence and consistency for local producers be implemented?

Mr. O’Reilly

Most of the proposals contained in the H1 and H2 packages are already in existence in Ireland. There are some areas that require new thinking such as the requirement to register all food business operators. In future, all food businesses need to be registered. That does not mean they will have to be inspected or approved. Such companies only require approval if the food business they are undertaking has the potential to present risk to human health. Approval of premises currently takes place in relation to slaughterhouses and dairy facilities.

I do not believe there will be any classification of products designated as geographically difficult.

Could you provide us with an example?

Mr. O’Reilly

Remote islands, outlying parts of the Union and so on. There has been no definition of what will constitute small quantities for the purposes of applying the regulations but, obviously, those supplying commercial volumes would not be involved. This is simply to allow small businesses to continue as heretofore.

Such as niche markets?

Mr. O’Reilly

Yes. A definition of "small" will be decided during consultations with the Department that will undertake responsibility for this.

Are bakeries included?

Mr. O’Reilly

All food operators will be covered. Deputy Hogan's question related to primary producers. All food operators will have to be registered under the H1 proposal that is a horizontal one.

Father Harry Bohan - I am sure he will not mind my mentioning his name - brought to my attention the closure of a family business in County Clare which was renowned for its bread baking, particularly brown bread. The company, which made bread for many years, was closed by a unit in charge of food safety regulations. As Deputy Hogan said, beef imported from third party countries may not apply the same safeguards as those applied by Irish producers. We must ensure consistency.

Perhaps Mr. O'Reilly will reply to my question on third countries.

Mr. O’Reilly

Beef labelling regulations are in place. It is possible, under WTO arrangements, to import beef. That might appear crazy given that we are 900% self sufficient in beef production. We are concerned that the beef is properly labelled. Imports into the Community are permitted provided the company involved is listed in the third country as an approved company. The product being imported must meet with EU hygiene regulations. We are concerned that consumers buying this beef know its origins so they can then make a valued judgment whether to buy it or Irish beef.

Have there been any breaches of the labelling requirements in recent times in terms of third country imports?

Mr. O’Reilly

We have received allegations of breaches and are investigating them in conjunction with the FSAI.

Are you saying that third country beef is clearly identifiable to the consumer?

Mr. O’Reilly

Current law requires that that be so.

Are you satisfied it is being done?

Mr. O’Reilly

Much of our imported beef goes to the catering sector. We are addressing that particular area with the FSAI.

I welcome the HACCP principles and the fact that micro-enterprises will be excluded from testing. However, I have difficulty regarding implementation. I note member states will be inspected by way of audits and similarly businesses are to be inspected. Small businesses are now paying more than €800 for an annual inspection by a HACCP inspector to ensure they are compliant with the regulations. This is placing a heavy burden on them.

Mr. Ray Ellard

It is difficult for some small businesses to understand the concept of HACCP and to put systems in place. Many businesses choose to use outside consultants to assist them in this regard. However, we do not require them to do so. We have tried to address the practicalities of applying HACCP through the development of guides to good hygiene practice worked out with the National Standards Authority. Current food rules lay down objectives that are not very prescriptive. The idea of the guide to good hygiene practice is that one works with a particular sector of industry to put flesh on the bones of the legislation and to explain what one has to do to meet the requirements of the law. There are currently four such guides in place. The concept of the development of a guide to good hygiene practice for all sectors is retained in the new legislation. We intend to develop more of these guides with various sectors of the industry so that they know what they need to do to comply with the rules.

How much time does a business have to get its systems right if it falls down in terms of HACCP? Are strict criteria involved? Closure of a business is not good for public perception. To avoid closure, many small businesses bring in auditors to assist them and that cost is set to rise. I am concerned about this.

Mr. Ellard

It has been our experience that very few businesses have been prosecuted or subject to legal action because they did not have a HACCP system in place. They are generally prosecuted because of the risk associated with their hygiene standards. It is unlikely that a business would be subject to closure for not having a HACCP system in place. That system is in place to ensure industry takes responsibility for its business, understands the hazards involved and has in place a system to control things. It is merely a transfer of responsibility from inspectors to the business. This change in mindset has been difficult for smaller and medium sized enterprises. Most of the larger businesses do not receive approval unless they have a HACCP in place.

The Food Safety Authority recognises the difficulty being experienced by small businesses and has put in place a national strategy to help them put HACCP systems in place. There has been a public campaign in that regard recently.

Could the Food Agency Co-operative Council not be called in to assist small businesses in this regard? The sum of €800 is a great deal of money. The committee is concerned about small businesses in this context. What is your opinion on that?

Mr. Ellard

I am not sure if the Food Agency Co-operative Council is the correct forum to deal with this. It was established to co-ordinate the activities of all the agencies involved in food. Its concerns are more strategic in nature than tactical in regard to what happens in individual businesses. BIM and An Bord Bia provide assistance here and the inspectors also provide advice on the guides for good hygiene.

It is not its job to advise small businesses?

Mr. Ellard

Yes. The FSAI is a member of the council and will be happy to consult on this.

Why does it cost €800 for such inspections?

Mr. Ellard

I presume that is the price charged by consultants for their advice.

How much time does an inspection take? Is it one day, two days?

Mr. Ellard

I do not know. One pays the market price.

We will revisit this matter at a future date. Perhaps you will look into the matter and come back to the committee on it. If we do not receive a satisfactory reply we may have to meet again. That is a great deal of money for small businesses to pay. I have my own views on fees.

Perhaps we should discuss the matter ourselves before we make the committee's view known to anybody else.

Our main concern must be to ensure consumers eat safe. We must examine the costs involved but I would rather see small businesses pay the €800 to ensure the safety of food than not to pay it.

Good is good and bad is bad. Black is black and white is white in terms of food safety.

I would like to put a number of questions to both groups. We particularly wanted to discuss the issue of principles. We are all aware - some of us have had responsibility for health matters and hygiene - that Ireland operates a rigid regime in regard to food safety and hygiene. What is encompassed in the new regulations will not be particularly burdensome on us because we are currently operating in that manner. We have closed many small abattoirs some of which were producing high quality meat of a traceable nature. In most instances, that would be considered a good thing. We have done all that. Yet, those of us who visit the Continent go to markets where virtually every type of meat, food product and cheese is openly displayed. They seem not to be subject to the same regimes. Perhaps it is the intention that this regime will apply on the Continent. I would regret that because those country markets are a feature of European life and are something we should encourage rather than try to do away with. There are exclusions and member states are able to adapt the rules. We appear to be very good boys and girls in this regard in that we apply the rigor of all these regimes sometimes to the detriment of food quality. It appears others permit much more flexibility. I am interested in hearing the views of the delegation on that principle.

It was mentioned that food businesses will be required to be registered. With whom will they register? Is it with the local health board or the Food Safety Authority? Who will undertake the monitoring of food safety for those above the set criteria? Which of the 48 agencies will monitor food safety? Much of current monitoring of food quality is undertaken by environmental health officers through the local health board. Some of them are also on contract to local authorities. Has the FSAI quantified how many people will be needed? Can the witness give the committee an assurance that sufficient numbers are available? How many staff are currently employed by the FSAI?

Who currently monitors the primary producer in terms of actual foodstuffs? This issue has caused significant national controversy. Is the quality of food given to animals which ultimately end up on our tables randomly, regularly and extensively monitored? Animal husbandry is also important in terms of food quality.

Mr. O’Reilly

We have to be on the side of the angels in terms of food safety. The consumer is all important in this regard and it is vital the food is guaranteed as safe. We have tried to take a very active role in ensuring that is the case. I am not sure how other countries' work compares with ours. We implement the regulations as we understand them.

Does Mr. O'Reilly recognise what they mean? Presumably Mr. O'Reilly has been to France, Germany, Belgium or Italy and seen the markets which display meat, cheese and foodstuffs. Do the same European directives and law apply?

Mr. O’Reilly

Deputy Howlin referred earlier to small abattoirs. We have reduced the number of abattoirs here from 900 to approximately 270. Much of that relates to requirements to introduce new legislation in off-floor bleeding and refrigeration. While we were required to do that many businesses felt it was not worth the candle for them to go the extra distance. Many abattoir operators were nearing retirement age and family members were not interested in pursuing the business. They closed down as much for economic as legislative reasons. Others also closed as a result of pressure from large supermarkets.

The Deputy also mentioned the facilities in place for adaptation of the rules. On markets and small business, Ireland has pressed for flexibility for member states to adapt the rules to suit specific requirements in their territory. We will avail of that. It is difficult to quantify at this stage. We have indicated that we will consult widely on how these measures should be implemented and how far-reaching they should be. On registration and controls, we take the view that many of the regulatory and control requirements already exist. Harmonisation of the regulations will be required in the future and we will need to address that. At this point, we cannot give specific answers in that regard.

Mr. Whelan

The FSAI currently employs 85 staff and other consultants are employed at particular times. The 48 official agencies are made up of 33 local authorities which have one or two local veterinary offices; the ten health boards which employ environmental health officers; the Department of Agriculture and Food which employs poultry, egg, dairy and veterinary inspectors; the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources which employs sea fishery officers; the Office of the Director for Consumer Affairs which undertakes labelling work and the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland. The main groups are marine, agriculture, local authorities and health boards.

Approximately 2,800 people across those agencies are involved, in one form or another, in food control. In terms of whole time equivalent there are 700 people involved. The health boards supervise 38,000 premises through 300 environmental health officers. That figure is not adequate.

I did not get a reply to my question on primary producers.

Ms Paula Barry-Walsh

I will provide an illustration of how and where primary producers-farmers are monitored. It may not necessarily be an exhaustive list because I would not know every area. Old liquid milk producers who supply pasteurising plants undergo registration with local authority vets. Currently, we have approximately 5,000 to 8,000 liquid milk producers.

On beef farms, each farm is visited on an annual basis by a private veterinary inspector who carries out routine TB testing on behalf of the Department of Agriculture and Food. The vet examines each animal on the farm. If problems of disease or welfare arise the private veterinary practictioner becomes involved even though the matter does not relate directly to TB and brucellosis legislation. District veterinary offices are staffed by full-time veterinarians who also act under pig and welfare legislation which entails inspections. Poultry houses are also subject to stringent inspections in relation to the possibility of salmonella outbreaks. For instance, Ireland operates a voluntary code of depopulation for serious salmonella outbreaks which would pose a problem for the human population. In addition, veterinarians are involved in inspections of ships exporting cattle. The primary producers product is examined there. Transport legislation is exercised at marts, abattoirs and, obviously, at the shipping point for transport. I am not very well acquainted with the legislation but a new zoonosis directive is being drawn up. "Zoonosis" means that it deals with diseases that are transmissible from animals to humans. There is a directive currently in place and I am aware that a new directive is being prepared. An initiative is currently being enhanced which is to do with the control of salmonella in pigs at farm level. These are just a small range of the items. It should be borne in mind that each primary producer generally has a private veterinary practitioner who would be called on what could be termed a random basis in some cases and on a systematic basis in other cases, particularly for pigs and poultry where if a problem is not diagnosed at a very early stage it can become very serious. That should give the committee an idea of how primary producers are overseen.

I am a farmer and I thank Ms Barry-Walsh for spelling out the constraints that are imposed on farmers. She has explained it very well. She must be doing some farming as a hobby.

The area of animal feed does not seem to be controlled very well. I wonder about the traceability of the feed. We could be feeding animals in a beautiful place but if we are giving them the wrong feed we could be doing a lot of harm. As a farmer I would not be aware of the dangers because I buy in feedstuff and assume it is correct. The traceability on farms at present is unreal. We have books upon books to record when an animal was born, sold and so on but it seems to be all the same beef when it is on the supermarket shelf.

I speak about beef because it is the easiest to talk about. It seems when the animals go up the slaughter line they seem to be all treated the same and there seems to be no real traceability once they leave the farm. In my view the farmer is using traceability to the best of his ability but once outside the farm gate it could be any beef after that. I would like to hear the delegations views on that issue.

It is a pity there are such stringent regulations governing traditional food production such as free-range eggs and small bakeries. I am all in favour of quality and safety but it is a bad day when these producers are knocked out of business due to very stringent rules. The same rules apply to factories supplying the export markets as to those small producers.

Ms Barry-Walsh spoke about abattoirs and it is fair to say that abattoirs closed down due to costs. The regulations introduced governing abattoirs were almost the same as those governing the export plants. The abattoirs could not survive.

Is it the intention to make the regulations governing farm hygiene more stringent in the future? Some countries regard our safety rules as being the most stringent. That may be a good thing and I am not against it. Our safety rules for foreign beef do not seem to be as stringent as the rules governing home-produced beef.

Ms Barry-Walsh

I will speak about feed because I have some knowledge of the subject from our feed section in the Department but it is not particularly a veterinary area. There is a feed unit in the Department of Agriculture and Food and it deals in particular with the suitability of feed for the animals destined for human consumption. I am aware that where raw material for feed comes into Ireland it undergoes quite stringent import conditions and that includes testing. Where the raw materials for feed are produced within Ireland I understand they also undergo controls. I do not know as much about the grain sector as seed but from the point of view of animal by-products they undergo very stringent controls. I hope that explanation is helpful.

The problem is that some feeds contain enhancers which might not be allowed be fed to beef animals but it is fed to them.

Ms Barry-Walsh

There are controls on feed mills and feed producers and that involves testing. I know that at feed level, testing plays a large part in detecting any ingredients that should not be there. In addition, there is residue testing of the final animal where perhaps some metabolite or by-product may also be detected. The controls are there but I am not in a position to comment more specifically.

The Deputy spoke about small producers. I emphasise when H1 and H2 were being negotiated in Brussels, both Mr. Ellard and I attended some of those meetings. Ireland supported the need for flexibility clauses in order to utilise them as much as possible, subject to national rules which will be laid down at a later date. Hopefully, that will allow for the continuation of the small producers because specific national rules will be set up for them.

On farm hygiene, the Deputy asked if there were any new rules envisaged. Farm hygiene is part of H1. It was not considered necessary to impose HACCP on farms in general and primary producers. However, they will essentially work on guidelines of good practice. If one examines any of the large commercial farms operating at present it will probably be a formalisation of systems that are already in place. Many of the commercial farms are very well aware of good practices because they know if they do not have good practices disease can be introduced. The Department does not consider there will be any particularly stringent new rules in that respect at farm level.

I will be brief. As the subject of beef has been covered in depth I will refer to chicken imports. Home producers must comply with very strict rules and regulations. Many of them are necessary but there are some I would question. There is not the same confidence about chicken imports from other countries. It is alleged that some of these imports can take a rather scenic route before they arrive here. It is often said that there may be further processing or re-stamping involved. There is concern about the production methods in other countries. I am not so sure about the situation regarding processing methods. When traceability is so important and when regulations and hygiene are so important at farm level, is the Department aware and concerned about present chicken imports?

Mr. O’Reilly

I am not aware that there is any particular concern at present. As I have stated on imports of beef, imports of chicken are provided for in EU legislation. Imports may only take place from third country operators who are listed and approved by the EU and have possibly been subjected to an inspection of their premises and facilities by EU inspectors. The imports take place under WTO arrangements. I am not aware of any issues causing concern at present.

Mr. Ellard

The Deputy may be referring to the recent issue with chicken meat which contained a lot of water and proteins other than chicken proteins. This certainly was a problem. The original meat came mostly from Asia and there was not a problem with that when it arrived. The problem happened within the Community when it was further processed and the fact that it was not labelled in a way that people could distinguish between chicken meat and this processed product, much of which ends up in the catering trade. We have collectively taken up this issue with the European Commission which has agreed to address it through some changes in legislation. We have taken up the matter with the food standards agency in the United Kingdom with whom we were working and with our colleagues in the Netherlands where the product originated.

If there are no other questions from members, I wish to thank the delegation for its co-operation. I look forward to meeting the members of the delegation on many other occasions in the next four years.

Mr. O’Reilly

I ask for clarification on the matter of the €800. Is this consultation for HCCP or is it to do with national standards accreditation?

No. As Deputy Howlin said, the committee will probably discuss it. We are very conscious of anything that will create high prices for the consumer or the customer, particularly with regard to small family businesses. The committee has experience from its inquiry into the insurance industry and we certainly will be the watchdog committee for the next four years on these matters of charges and fees and everything to do with assisting small businesses. I was only asking a question and I certainly thought that €800 seemed a lot for one visit per year. That is why I asked Mr. Ellard to say how many times it would be, how long it would take and whether it is a monitoring fee for the whole year.

Mr. Ellard

In order to clarify the position, there is no requirement by the Food Safety Authority of Ireland, the health boards or the Department of Agriculture and Food, for businesses to hire consultants to help them comply with the law. It is really a market place issue where businesses feel the need for outside help and it can be hired from the Golden Pages. It is not a requirement on the part of the authority.

Does the authority have that expertise?

Mr. Ellard

We certainly could provide it.

Why should they hire a consultant if the authority has the expertise?

Mr. Ellard

They would be given some advice from the inspectors who visit them. Many of them take account of market reasons. For instance, if they supply supermarket chains they must be able to demonstrate on a business to business basis that they have the systems in place which will allow them to continue to supply.

A fee of €800 for supplying markets is not a large fee but I had in mind the smaller producers.

I have strong views on inspection. The inspectors should ensure that everything is correct. Should they not then be trying to help the person do that rather than trying to catch them out and fine them? That should be the same for every type of inspection, from the calf to the animal to how a grant is awarded. That system of inspection does not seem to be there and it is about time it was brought into the Department.

Mr. Ellard

We hope it will be. The main thrust of these regulations is that businesses take responsibility and put their own systems in place to guarantee safety. The role of the inspector should be to help them ensure their systems are working rather than going out to find fault or blame.

Is that the case?

Mr. Ellard

It should be the case and I think it is the case in many instances.

Who will ensure that is the case?

Mr. Ellard

We try to do it as a food safety authority through our liaison meetings with the inspectors throughout the country so that there is a consistency of approach. To return to the question about the €800, the businesses choose to hire consultants for whatever reason that may be. It could be because they want the extra assurance before another official inspection or they want to guarantee that they will be able to continue to supply other businesses. It is not a requirement of the Food Safety Authority of Ireland.

The committee is concerned about the small family business, the one or two person business which has been handed down from father to son or mother to daughter. The fee of €800 would be a significant amount for a business like that. Is the message from this meeting that the advice is freely available; they do not have to employ consultants and the payment of the €800 fee is their own decision?

Mr. Ellard

Yes.

That is very helpful. There is no need for the committee to pursue this matter any further. Now that we have the good news I am sure we are all very pleased and happy. We look forward to meeting the delegation many times over the course of the next four years. We are grateful for the attendance of the witnesses and we apologise for the delay. The committee held meetings on insurance during the month of July and the early part of August. We then visited Canada and the United States with the Tánaiste on other matters of serious concern to businesses with regard to broadband technology. I thank the delegation for its helpful answers which clarified most of our concerns.

The joint committee went into private session and adjourned at 10.59 a.m. until 10 a.m. on Wednesday, 29 October 2003.

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