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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE AND SMALL BUSINESS debate -
Wednesday, 30 Jun 2004

Scrutiny of EU Proposals.

The first item is COM (2004) 96, a proposal by the European Parliament and Council to establish a multi-annual programme to make digital content in the EU more accessible, usable and exploitable. The second item is COM (2004) 177, a proposal for a directive on statutory audits of annual accounts and consolidated accounts. The committee will hear briefings on the directive from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

I welcome Mr. Kieran Grace and Mr. Tom Sheedy from the business support unit of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. While members' comments are protected by parliamentary privilege, those of visitors are not so protected. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside of the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Kieran Grace

Thank you Chairman for inviting us to brief the committee on this EU directive. Since 2001, the multi-annual EU eContent programme has been in operation and will remain in place until January 2005. The latest call for proposals closed on 14 May 2004. The programme has a budget of €100 million. The programme's overall goal was to enhance the competitiveness of the European content industry by supporting the production, use and distribution of European digital content on global networks, with the emphasis on the use of public sector information and also the promotion of cultural diversity and multilingualism in the digital content market.

The digital content industry is concerned with sound, pictures, text and video available in digital format for downloading or streaming across the Internet or other networks. This programme operates on the basis of a competitive process. Projects involving partners from a number of European states have been selected through calls for proposals and are normally funded at the rate of 50%. There is no set allocation for any member state or individual company.

The Irish participants involved to date are Bealtaine Limited, a small Clare-based company; the National Microelectronics Applications Centre, formerly associated with University of Limerick but now independent; Transware Limited, based in Dublin and Sligo; Berlitz Ireland Limited; Ordnance Survey Ireland; and University of Limerick. To date, a total of approximately €1.95 million has been approved for Irish projects. More approvals will be forthcoming before the current programme finishes at the end of this year. The mid-term evaluation of the programme, undertaken in 2003, concluded that the theme of digital content is highly relevant to a number of economic and social interests but that barriers still exist due to the multiplicity of languages, cultures, and practices of companies and public administrations, thereby making further public intervention at Community level in this area desirable. The evaluation also helped to inform the EU Commission to draw up the current proposal for a programme aimed at promoting the conditions that will facilitate the development of cross-border services based on digital content. Projects dealing with four areas of digital content will be eligible for support under eContentplus. These are public sector information, learning content, scientific and scholarly content and content from cultural institutions.

The June Telecoms Council reached political agreement on the proposed decision. This incorporated suggested amendments from the European Parliament. I understand that the text of the Council Common Position is with jurist-linguists, but once finalised and formally adopted, it will be transmitted to the European Parliament for a second reading. The Council agreed in particular on a financial framework of €135 million for the eContentplus programme from 2005 to 2008. This compared to an original EU Commission budget proposal of €163 million. It will be on the basis of this figure of €135 million that the Council will proceed to negotiate an agreement on second reading with the European Parliament in the autumn. Given that a more widespread debate on budget allocations for a variety of programmes is under way within the European institutions, the eContentplus proposal's progress will depend on overall settlement of this issue. However, it is hoped that it will be fully agreed before the end of the year.

While the previous programme's qualifying criteria focused on the type of project partnership, the new programme will focus on the area of content. Other types of content such as on-line news, gaming etc., where it is considered that the market will develop on its own, will not be eligible for support. Rather than simply aiming at increasing the availability of content, eContentplus will also be directed at supporting content with a strong methodological and technological element embedded in order to raise the quality of the services that can be obtained from the raw data. The proposed eContentplus programme is targeted at content shareholders, such as database companies, localisation service providers, software companies, educational and cultural establishments, as well as traditional content providers like publishers, the public sector and research organisations. The new programme, like its predecessor, will operate on the basis of calls for proposals. The preceding programme was highly competitive with only one in seven of the applicants being successful. Normally, applications are made in partnership with other organisations including those from at least one other EU member or associated state. Irish companies in the multimedia sector, as well as information providers, public sector organisations and universities could secure involvement in projects.

A number of the Irish organisations that participated in the preceding programme were consulted on the new programme. There was general agreement that the earlier programme had been of benefit to those who had secured participation. There was also agreement that the proposed new follow-on programme could be of value. As with the previous programme, it is proposed that Enterprise Ireland should ensure that the information about the eContentplus programme will be widely promoted and information events held to provide the maximum opportunity for potential applicant organisations to become involved. Some support will also be provided to assist interested organisations secure suitable partners for proposals in this area.

The new programme will provide opportunities for organisations in Ireland, including SMEs, to secure financial support to work on projects in collaboration with other organisations within the European Union, and associated states in the EEA, that potentially could help develop expertise in the company, help develop business relationships with organisations in other states and lead to increased ongoing business.

There are no cost implications for consumers or businesses arising from this proposal. Rather, it offers interested companies an opportunity to source funds for their projects and develop their products. I thank members for their attention. Mr. Sheedy and myself will answer any questions they may have.

Thank you, Mr. Grace. What needs to be done for mass broadband take-up to be achieved? The budget for this programme is due to end in 2006. Is it likely that the money will be provided for 2007 and 2008?

On the entire programme, because of the prime role Ireland plays in ICT generally, is a fixed percentage of the overall budget line available to Ireland? Is it set per country or can Ireland, because of its advances in e-technology, get a disproportionate slice? Relatedly, what are the criteria laid down to get a project grant-aided and what sort of publication will the representatives make? Who makes the decision? Is it the unit within the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, and who are the members of that unit?

In regard to another hat I wear as a member of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, a huge volume of work is under way on Euromedia, dealing particularly with cultural integration within the Council of Europe. Are there any linkages between that programme and Euromedia as an institution in terms of achieving the cultural objectives set out for this directive?

Mr. Grace

If we may, Chairman, Mr. Sheedy and I will share the answering. On the issue of mass broadband take-up, the other hat I wear in the Department is dealing with e-business. One of the issues we have identified through a trawl of the latest census, with the assistance of the CSO, is that while access to PCs and ICT is high, the sophisticated usage of it is quite low. That is one of the biggest problems facing Irish industries. It is not so much the take-up but the sophisticated usage of it.

Unfortunately, in many SMEs the concept of a strategy for the best use of ICT resides with the finance manager because he or she is dealing with a spreadsheet for accounts. It is ironic that while broadband assists a more sophisticated use of ICT, even ICT on other means is not being optimised in Irish business. That is one of the bigger challenges facing the Department in terms of how to drive that e-business agenda.

On the budget from 2006, the profile within the Commission proposal foresaw a budget extending to the end of the programme in 2008. One of the reasons the impasse has arisen is that very function of what happens post 2006. That is the reason there has been lack of agreement on budgets. In that context, €135 million is very small. It is being held up by a larger consideration.

I will ask Mr. Sheedy to deal with the questions Deputy Howlin raised vis-à-vis the issue of fixed percentages and decision making as he has been intimately involved in that area.

Mr. Tom Sheedy

The straight answer is that there is not a fixed percentage for Ireland. This money will be available for competition throughout Europe. There are no allocations per member state. In the outgoing programme, which was the e-content programme, it is fair to say that, to date, Ireland has done disproportionately well. Mr. Grace mentioned a figure of €1.95 million. That would be out of approximately €75 million which has been distributed to date.

We would often look at this in terms of population percentages. If we talk about a juste retour for Ireland it could be of the order of 1% whereas that would bring it to something like 2.6%. For example, in the first call we had under that programme Ireland ended up getting a financial allocation ahead of Italy, which would be very disproportionate. In the past we have benefited disproportionately but that is no guarantee that we will benefit in the future. The new programme is different in that it is more focused than the outgoing one. There is also the fact that there are now 25 states.

On the question of who decides, there is an evaluation process which, from my experience of it, is fair. The Commission assembles a team of evaluators. We would put forward names, or the Commission would already have names, of people in Ireland, but they would assemble a team and try to make it as representative as possible in terms of country and gender representation and a mix of industry and academic representation. That evaluation group will then produce a report which goes to the Commission. There is a management committee which, in the normal course of events, would have to sign off on proposals above a financial threshold, but it would be up to the Commission to take the evaluation report and recommend a set of projects for funding based on that evaluation report. My experience has been that the process does work in an equitable fashion.

I do not see a specific reference to Euromedia in the text of the proposals, but it does state that complementarity and synergy with related Community initiatives and programmes should be ensured by the Commission, in particular those related to education, culture and the European interoperability framework. I am not aware that Euromedia is specifically mentioned but there would be close relationships between the unit of the Commission which is handling this programme and the Euromedia activity. I hope I have not missed any of the other points made.

Mr. Grace

Overall, the success rate for applicants in the last programme was one in six or seven. For Ireland it has been about one in three. The quality of the proposal is very important in this regard. There is quite a nice mix of Irish interest in the proposals, from academic, public sector and private company, and we hope to see that continue.

I thank Mr. Grace and Mr. Sheedy for coming in today and giving us a very informative briefing. We would liked to have teased out the matter a little more but we have a time constraint. However, we will be here for three more years and we hope to be meeting quite often.

The Chairman should consult with the Tánaiste, Deputy Harney, on that.

I understand the Minister is changing from this committee and we will be dealing with a new Minister in the autumn.

A Deputy

It might be the Chairman.

Who knows? It is highly unlikely. Is this proposal agreed? Agreed.

We will move to consideration of the second proposal before the committee, COM (2004)177, a proposal for a directive on the statutory audit of annual accounts and consolidated accounts.

I welcome Mr. Philip Donegan and Mr. Dermot Sheridan from the company law section of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. I invite Mr. Donegan to make a presentation to the committee.

Mr. Philip Donegan

I was told I could speak for ten minutes and this presentation will take that long. Is that too long?

I am aware that members want to ask questions about this proposal. Therefore, we would appreciate it if Mr. Donegan could make the presentation in seven minutes.

Mr. Donegan

I will do my best.

The Commission has been examining the proposal for a new company law directive for some time in consultation with member states and other interested parties such as the auditing profession. The objective of the proposed directive is to ensure that interested parties can rely on the accuracy of audited accounts by requiring auditors to meet certain standards and be subject to appropriate regulation and oversight. Added urgency was given to the need to "beef up" the original eight directive, which came into existence in 1984, by a number of high profile corporate scandals in the EU and the USA which gave rise to questions over the manner in which companies are audited.

Consideration of the Commission's proposal by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment has been undertaken in the light of the policy recently laid down by the Government and the Oireachtas and set out in the Companies (Auditing and Accounting) Act 2003. This Act will establish a new auditing and accounting supervisory authority and other such measures. As there is basically no conflict between the approach set out in the Commission's proposal and in the Act recently adopted, the Department does not foresee that the directive would cause any major difficulties for Ireland. However, there are one or two points of detail on which would wish to argue with the Commission, but we consider the directive to be basically in line with existing policy.

I will briefly outline Ireland's existing regulatory structure to which there are a number of elements. For a person to be qualified for appointment as a company auditor, he or she must be a member of a body of accountants recognised for this purpose. Formerly, responsibility for such recognition was undertaken by the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, but this function will now reside with the Irish Auditing and Accounting Supervisory Authority, IAASA. The criteria which a body must meet to be eligible for recognition are set out in section 191 of the Companies Act and cover such areas as education and training of its members, disciplinary procedures, ethics and independence.

The day to day approval and registration of individual auditors and audit firms is undertaken by six recognised bodies, of which the Institute of Chartered Accountants and the Institute of Certified Public Accountants are the two largest. The recognised bodies provide, either directly or through their qualified institutions, educational and practical instruction to their members and organise appropriate tests. The recognised bodies are required to undertake the quality assurance of their members, which means that they are supposed to test and ensure that auditors are carrying out their functions properly.

IAASA, which is currently being established, will operate a system of public oversight over the national regulatory regime. It will be responsible for supervising how the recognised accountancy bodies regulate and monitor their members, and is given a mandate to promote the adherence to high professional standards in the auditing and accountancy profession. As well as having a general oversight role, IAASA is empowered to intervene directly in the investigation and discipline of individual auditors.

I will outline the main requirements of the directive. It will require member states to designate competent authorities which will be responsible for approving persons and firms to act as auditors. Ireland gives effect to this through the designation of specified recognised accountancy bodies such as the Institute of Chartered Accountants and the Institute of Certified Public Accountants.

The directive requires that statutory audits be carried out only by persons and firms who meet certain education, training and other criteria. This will be given effect by way of the Companies Act and enforced by the recognised accountancy bodies. Auditors must be registered on a public register, which is done through the Companies Registration Office.

The directive requires that auditors and audit firms be subject to an ongoing system of quality assurance and effective system of investigation and sanction. This is undertaken by the recognised accountancy bodies. Their disciplinary procedures will now be given statutory backing under the Companies (Auditing and Accounting) Act 2003.

The directive requires member states to have in place an effective system of public oversight, and this we will seek to do through the establishment of IAASA. It requires that the governance of the public oversight system must be undertaken by non-practitioners, non-accountants, although a minority of practitioners may be allowed. This is the way IAASA is structured.

The directive will require public interest entities to have an audit committee. Under the Companies (Auditing and Accounting) Act 2003, plcs or public companies will be required to have an audit committee while large private companies will be required either to have an audit committee or to explain in their annual report why the company decided not to appoint such a committee.

I will deal with the elements in the proposed directive not currently provided for in the Irish regulatory system. The directive will require member states to have systems in place to approve auditors from other members states wishing to practise in Ireland. The directive also has provisions dealing with the approval and registration of auditors and audit firms from non-EU member states. The directive will further require member states to have in place a co-operation regime between Irish competent authority and competent authorities in non-EU member states. While currently we do not specifically provide for these, giving effect to these is not viewed as something that will cause us any difficulty.

The directive has a number of provisions covering auditors involved in the audit of public interest entities. We do not currently distinguish generally between the audit of ordinary firms and the audit of public interest entities. Under the Commission's proposal, auditors of public interest entities must publish on their website an annual transparency report giving certain information on the practice, firms audited, financial information and so on. They have to report to the company's audit committee on certain matters. These obligations are not currently imposed by statute but their implementation is not viewed as something that will cause a problem.

The directive has certain rotation requirements in terms of when the key audit partner must rotate from the audit. There is also a requirement that the key audit partner cannot take up an appointment with a firm within a period of two years. These are covered in the existing rules of the recognised accountancy bodies.

From Ireland's perspective, the most difficult provision in the directive is the Commission's proposal not to allow practitioner involvement in the governance of the system of public oversight of auditors who audit public interest entities. This is contrary to the Companies (Auditing and Accounting) Act which allow four out of 14 members of the board of IAASA to be practitioners. There seemed to be considerable opposition from member states to this provision, therefore, we would be hopeful that this provision will not appear in the final version approved by the Council and the European Parliament.

The European Commission issued its proposal for a new directive in March this year. The first meeting of the Council working group was held in April. Five such meetings have been held to date. Following the First Reading, recently completed, a revised Presidency text was circulated to member states containing suggestions for amendments. This will be taken up by the Dutch Presidency and considered in tandem with the original Commission proposal during the Second Reading of the directive. The First Reading was very much exploratory, with member states trying to understand the thinking behind and the impact of the Commission's proposal. It is only during the Second Reading that we expect them to get down to substantive negotiations on what might be included in the directive as it is referred to the ministerial Council. The Dutch Presidency has indicated its intention to bring the proposal for a directive before ECOFIN in November this year for a political orientation debate, not adoption, by which stage it is unlikely that the European Parliament will have expressed its view because of the break in proceedings due to the elections.

Before inviting questions from members, I have two questions of my own. First, will or should the registration of third country auditors reduce audit costs for small and medium-sized businesses? Second — this is the most obvious question — will the directive ensure problems such as the recent overcharging by the AIB will not recur?

Mr. Donegan

I would not say the registration of third country auditors will have an impact on small firms, the vast bulk of which are audited by a local accountant. It is unlikely, therefore, that a third country auditor will be involved. Having more auditors practising in Ireland will create competition which may help to reduce the rates charged to small firms. However, I do not anticipate that it will be significant.

By definition, an audit is a sampling exercise. An auditor does not check all of the books; he or she makes a sample of certain books. The audit is designed to pick up failings in the system. If a firm is overcharging a particular category and this does not come up in the audit sample, it will not necessarily be picked up. Equally, an audit will not necessarily pick up fraud. If a firm or company director is deliberately trying to perpetrate a fraud and hide it from the auditor, it will not necessarily be picked up in an audit.

Does the proposed directive place adequate responsibility on management and directors to ensure all relevant information on transactions is made available to the auditors?

Mr. Donegan

No. It contains no such provision.

Does Mr. Donegan have a view on the case I mentioned — the AIB?

Mr. Donegan

An audit may not necessarily pick up that a bank is overcharging a particular business category. There is no guarantee that it will.

In recent times we have had long discussions about this issue when the Companies (Auditing and Accounting) Bill passed through the House. I wish to touch on a number of live issues at the time which may have implications in this regard. I would like to get an idea from the representatives of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment of the audit exemption limits that apply in other member states. Will this regulation be particularly burdensome on smaller Irish companies because we have relatively low exemption limits? I do not have the comparative figures for all other member states. If we are to have uniform standards, where do we stand as regards current exemption limits?

On the Chairman's point about the recognition of external auditors, both within the European Union and externally, is it planned to have a central registry? If so, a company located here would be able to verify that somebody purporting to be a registered auditor had the requisite qualifications. How would the domestic regulatory authority — the IACA in Ireland's case — be able to verify the authenticity of somebody purporting to be an auditor, either within the European Union or, more problematically, externally?

Mr. Donegan

On behalf of the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Ahern, I examined the question of audit exemption limits when the Companies (Auditing and Accounting) Bill was passing through the Oireachtas. I do not have the figures with me but recall that at the time about half of the member states did not allow for an audit exemption. Some allowed for an exemption up to a maximum turnover of close to €8 million.

Will Mr. Donegan provide members with information on the actual comparative legal position in each member state?

Mr. Donegan

Yes. The one that may be of most interest to members in so far as it involves the greatest degree of interaction and competition is that in the United Kingdom which has increased its limit to a turnover of €8 million. In the Companies (Auditing and Accounting) Bill we increased the limit to €1.5 million.

The directive contains no provision for the establishment of a central registry — for example, one that might be retained by the Commission. Therefore, each member state will be required to have a central registry. However, it will be open to a competent authority or individual to inquire of the registry in another member state what qualifications a particular auditor has and whom he or she is auditing, as well as to obtain information on financial size and governance.

How will this operate in the case of an auditor from outside the European Union? How will standards be validated? I will not be disparaging by naming a particular country. If somebody wants to comply with the legal provisions, how will we know that the auditor is qualified as he or she purports to be?

Mr. Donegan

The directive specifically requires that if a third country auditor wishes to practise in the European Union, he or she must be registered in and be subject to oversight within the Union. The only exemption is for countries with which an EU member state has reciprocal arrangements, in other words, those countries where the system of checking of auditors is validated by the European Commission. Therefore, it will not be open to an auditor to practise in the European Union without being approved within the Union. However, if one is doing business with a Cayman Islands bank, there is no check and one has no notion of how well the bank is audited.

According to paragraph No. 7, there is no conflict between the approach set out in the Companies (Auditing and Accounting) Act and this proposal, except that a different approach may be preferred with regard to some minor details. Can Mr. Donegan elaborate on the issues which are impinging in this respect?

Mr. Donegan

I have covered that matter.

On the idea that governance of public oversight systems must be exercised by a non-practitioner, Mr. Donegan has emphasised that this is the approach taken by the IACA. How practical is this? I pose the question in the context of the appointment in recent years of a high profile individual to the European Court of Auditors. There was a certain degree of criticism because the person concerned did not have a background in auditing.

The real problem is presented by the threshold for auditing. During the debate on the Companies (Auditing and Accounting) Bill, we argued that it was too low. It is now obvious that, with more directives being brought forward, it will place a greater imposition on small companies, particularly given the difference between the Irish and UK limits. Would it be possible to make a distinction, or raise the limit applicable in the case of European directives as distinct from the limit we use for auditing here?

Does Mr. Donegan agree that the exemption turnover threshold should be increased from €1.5 million to €8 million, the figure he mentioned?

Mr. Donegan

I apologise for jumping in a minute ago.

Not at all. I would love to tease out matters in further detail and allow Mr. Donegan talk for as long he wishes but there is a very tight Order of Business in both Houses today. Some members may decide to attend the Order of Business but we will stay here for as long as is necessary.

Mr. Donegan

I cannot express a view on whether the exemption turnover threshold should be increased to €8 million because, essentially, it is a political issue on which the Minister has taken a decision. The threshold stood at £250,000 or €300,000 before being to increased to €1.5 million. The view was taken that we should see how matters proceeded. The Minister may well be open to increasing it further but moving from a figure of €250,000 to €8 million would have been viewed as a very large jump.

The Minister has plenty of experience.

Mr. Donegan

I know that he thought about the matter and received a long and detailed paper from the Department setting out the arguments for and against.

I have set out in my note, in paragraphs 26 to 33, inclusive, on pages 4 and 5, the elements of the proposal with which we have a difficulty. Because of time pressure, I will not go through them again. They tie in with the question of oversight by non-practitioners.

In looking at the directive the single provision that created difficulties for us, compared to the regime the Oireachtas had established — the IAASA — was the one which allowed for oversight by non-practitioners. On the basis that some expertise is needed, one must ensure those involved are in the minority and not running the show. The Commission has differentiated in this area. The problem is that a dual system is being created. There will be oversight of ordinary entities where some industry practitioner involvement will be allowed, and oversight of what are called public interest entities where the Commission proposes that there will not be practitioner involvement. This causes a difficulty for us in that it does not conform with the way in which the IAASA has been established. It also causes a difficulty for a number of member states which like us are of the view that some industry involvement is useful or because, in effect, a dual system of oversight is being created, with one body in place for public interest entities and another for non-public interest entities. There is strong opposition from member states. Since that is the main issue of concern to us — the way it differs from the structures established by the Oireachtas — we are hopeful the matter will be dealt with.

I do not know if the exemption threshold is too low. Many firms which might be exempt may still want to be audited because it can be a useful check on what a company is doing. For a small firm an audit is not expensive. The last time I looked, the figure was about €5,000. In many companies the audit will be carried out by the accountant who prepares the books. Therefore, the additional cost may not be huge. The audit provides for some degree of oversight for companies. Where the threshold should be set is a political decision on which I cannot express a view.

Are members agreed that this proposal needs no further consideration? Agreed. I thank Mr. Donegan and Mr. Sheridan for assisting the committee this morning and look forward to working with them over the next three years when we can tease out other issues that may need clarification and our consideration.

The joint committee went into private session at 10.25 a.m. and adjourned at 10.30 a.m. sine die.

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