JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE AND SMALL BUSINESS debate -
Tuesday, 20 Jul 2004

Scrutiny of EU Proposals.

Chairman

We will now scrutinise the first of two EU legislative proposals. I welcome Padraig Cullinane, Marie Dempsey and John Maher from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, who are present to brief us on COM (2004) 239, regarding a proposal for a Council decision on guidelines for the employment policies of member states and a recommendation for a Council recommendation on the implementation of member states' employment policies.

I remind the visitors that while the comments of members are protected by parliamentary privilege, those of visitors are not so protected. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or any official by name, in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Mr. Cullinane to make his presentation to the committee.

Mr. Padraig Cullinane

It is useful and important to outline the background to the Council decision and recommendation. They arise from the European employment strategy. Against a background of high levels of unemployment across the EU, member states agreed to co-ordinate employment policies under the employment title of the 1997 Amsterdam treaty. The articles of the Amsterdam treaty form the legal basis for the development of the European employment strategy. The strategy was launched in 1997 at the Luxembourg European Council summit, known as the Luxembourg jobs summit.

The strategy does not change the basic principle of member states being responsible for national employment policy, but requires them to work towards a co-ordinated strategy for employment.

Central to the European employment strategy is the open method of co-ordination. This is essentially a partnership approach at EU and national levels and was regarded as the appropriate approach in the area of employment policy given the different situations pertaining in member states.

EU economic and employment policy co-ordination progressed further in 2000 following the European Council in Lisbon, which approved a set of policies which have become known as the Lisbon Agenda or the Lisbon strategy. The aim of the Lisbon agenda is for Europe to become the world's most competitive and knowledge-based economy with more and better jobs and greater social cohesion by 2010. It is an integrated approach across a number of policy areas — economic, social and environmental. In the area of employment, employment rate targets were set for the EU to be met by 2010. The target set for the overall employment rate is 70%, the female employment rate target is 60% and the target for older workers is 50%.

The European employment strategy continues to have the leading role in the implementation of the employment objectives of the Lisbon Agenda. The most recent European employment strategy, covering the period 2003 to 2005, was agreed at the European Council in June 2003 and incorporates the objectives and challenges set by the Lisbon Agenda. The three-year strategy set out last year sets out three overarching objectives — full employment, quality and productivity of work and social cohesion — to be met though measures taken under ten employment guidelines.

The ten guidelines are as follows: prevention and activation — systematic engagement with the unemployed and inactive through the provision of suitable employment and training programmes to ensure they do not drift into long-term unemployment; job creation and entrepreneurship — creating more and better jobs through the development agencies and by fostering entrepreneurship, research and development and a favourable business environment for enterprises; adaptability and change — facilitating the adaptability of workers and firms to change, taking account of the need for both flexibility and security and reform of restrictive employment legislation; investment in human capital and lifelong learning — implementing lifelong learning strategies, improving education and training to equip all individuals with the skills required for knowledge based economy, and encouraging in-company training; increased labour supply and active ageing — increasing labour market participation, in particular by encouraging females and older workers to enter and stay in the labour market by fostering employment conditions conducive to job retention; gender equality — encouraging female labour market participation, particularly through the provision of child care services, and reducing gender gaps in employment and unemployment rates and pay; promoting integration, combating discrimination and tackling disadvantage — integrating those outside the labour market such as early school leavers, low-skilled workers, people with disabilities and immigrants by developing their employability, increasing job opportunities and preventing discrimination; making work pay — reducing the numbers of working poor and unemployed by ensuring tax benefits and welfare payments together with employment and training incentives make work an attractive option for all; undeclared work — developing policies to eliminate undeclared work through simplification of the business environment and providing appropriate incentives in the tax and benefit systems; and regional disparities — implementing policies to reduce regional employment and unemployment gaps and through the development agencies increasing job creation in the regions.

In spring 2003, European Council approved the establishment of a European employment task force to undertake an independent examination of employment policy and to identify practical reform measures that would have an immediate impact on the ability of member states to implement the European employment strategy. It was undertaken in response to concerns by Heads of Government that the employment objectives and the Lisbon Agenda generally were not being met. The report of the task force was presented to the European Commission in November 2003. The task force recommendations reinforce the messages made within the European employment strategy. They have been taken on board by the European Commission and the European Council and have been integrated into the strategy process.

Member states respond to the European employment strategy by way of an annual employment action plan. The plan for Ireland is prepared in consultation with the social partners. It is submitted to the European Commission in October and a copy is laid before the Oireachtas.

Deputy Lynch

Does that include October 2004?

Mr. Cullinane

It is prepared annually and is presented each October. We will have another this October and a copy will be laid before the Oireachtas. Based on the action plans of individual member states the European Commission prepares a joint employment report and makes recommendations to member states as to how future policies might evolve. The joint employment report provides an assessment of the progress made in implementing the European employment strategy and outlines the future actions and directions that need to be taken by member states.

The joint employment report is submitted to the Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council, ESPHCA, and the spring European Council in March at which member states, through the Heads of Government, take stock of progress made and set priorities for the future. On the basis of decisions made and the priorities set by the spring European Council, the Commission defines and presents its proposals for further action in the form of the Council decision and the Council recommendation which are before the committee today.

The decision proposes that the employment guidelines which were set last year and cover the three-year period 2003 to 2005 should remain unchanged and the emphasis should be on implementation. The analysis of the implementation of the 2003 guidelines in the joint employment report and the policy messages in the employment task force report provide the basis for the formulation of the country-specific recommendations and these are covered by the Council recommendation. This Council decision and Council recommendation were considered and approved by the ESPHCA Council on 1 June 2004 and endorsed by the European Council on 17 June 2004, so they are now in force.

The recommendations for Ireland are as follows: to increase access to active labour market measures for a larger share of the unemployed and inactive population and ensure their effectiveness; to increase the supply and affordability of child care facilities and take urgent action to tackle the causes of the gender pay gap; and to implement a coherent lifelong learning strategy to reduce early school leaving and increase participation in training, especially for the low-skilled and older workers. At its spring 2005 session the European Council will review progress in the course of the year, giving particular attention to the extent to which national actions have boosted progress towards the Lisbon employment goals.

This year the European employment strategy remains unchanged from last year. Member states are now required to prepare national employment action plans, NEAPs, for submission to the European Commission by 1 October 2004. This year's NEAP will review progress made on the objectives outlined in the three-year plan prepared last year within the framework of the ten employment guidelines. It will also outline achievements made with particular reference to how the recommendations issued to Ireland in 2004, which I mentioned earlier, are being addressed.

This is quite a large co-ordination process. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is co-ordinating the preparation of the plan. Inputs have been sought from other areas within our own Department as well as other Departments, particularly the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Education and Science, Social and Family Affairs and Finance. The plan will also be prepared in consultation with the social partners and will take on board commitments agreed under the partnership agreement, Sustaining Progress. We hope the plan will be ready for submission to the Commission by early October and propose to lay a copy before the Houses of the Oireachtas.

Chairman

We all know the great track record of this country, with a net figure of more than 600,000 jobs created in the last decade, including 50,000 in 2003. Ireland has an unemployment rate of 4.4%, which is under half the EU average; France's unemployment rate is 9.5% and Germany's is over 10%.

The community employment scheme and jobs initiative scheme are active labour market programmes designed to help unemployed people return to mainstream employment. What is Mr. Cullinane's view on this? This committee wholeheartedly welcomes Tesco's initiative in north Dublin to recruit from among the long-term unemployed. What can be done to encourage other employers to do the same?

Deputy Lynch will be anxious to hear the reply to my next question. The number of women in the labour force has increased significantly. In 1985 the labour force was about 30% female, while at the end of last year it was 49% female. What is the current rate?

Mr. Cullinane

The Chairman is correct in saying that the community employment scheme is an active labour market measure to encourage people back to employment. In 2004 there were 20,000 places available on this scheme, which is the same number as in 2003. However, between the community employment, jobs initiative and social economy schemes we are talking about 25,000 places.

A review of the schemes has been undertaken and we are currently considering whether they can be improved in their structure and direction. In the last couple of weeks we have sent a consultation paper to the social partners and asked them for their views with a view to submitting this issue to the Minister for a decision in the next couple of months. However, this has more to do with examining how we can better structure these schemes.

Chairman

This committee might be allowed to make a submission in that regard.

Mr. Cullinane

We could send the discussion paper to the committee.

Chairman

That is a very good idea. Members are anxious for the committee to make a contribution in this area.

Mr. Cullinane

I am not aware of the Tesco initiative in north Dublin. We welcome any initiatives undertaken by employers. Does the initiative cater for older workers?

Chairman

No, it is for the long-term unemployed.

Mr. Cullinane

We were not aware of this initiative but we welcome any such initiative. We must take initiatives such as this into account. As a result of the demographic situation there will be fewer people coming into the labour market. We will have to use the people we have in the labour force as it stands. It is expected that about 80% of the workforce will be in the labour market by 2015 and we will have very few coming in. It is important that companies recruit people from all areas and increase the participation not only of females but of the long-term unemployed and older workers.

Chairman

Does Mr. Cullinane have an up-to-date figure for female participation in the workforce?

Mr. Cullinane

The overall employment target set under the Lisbon agenda is 70%. Ireland's employment rate is currently 65.7%. The female employment target is 60% and the female employment rate is currently 55.9%.

Deputy Lynch

Mr. Cullinane mentioned guidelines. Are they just guidelines or are they binding?

Mr. Cullinane

They are guidelines. As I said, the approach that was decided at EU level was that member states would still have individual responsibility for employment policy. The idea of the strategy is to co-ordinate and learn from best practice and for member states to help each other, but the guidelines are not binding.

Deputy Lynch

Does Mr. Cullinane expect that they will take the form of a directive in the next five years?

Mr. Cullinane

This is covered under the Amsterdam treaty, which is quite specific, and the situation is maintained under the proposed new constitution. We do not see it becoming a——

Deputy Lynch

Does that mean tax and employment policy will remain country-specific?

Mr. Cullinane

Yes.

Deputy Lynch

There are certain elements of employment policy and law about which I am concerned, particularly those areas that apply to women. I would be concerned about companies that are not based in the EU would have a long-term commitment to the Republic and a work force with specific skills that decides to put work contracts to tender and that would be able to get a work force from within the EU but outside the State. Is there any protection for the Irish work force who were employed from the outset? I am talking about the new contract that is awarded in the EU. Other countries have different pay rates and if the company could fill the contract at a lower cost, is there any protection for Irish workers in that predicament?

Mr. Cullinane

This is not my area of responsibility so I cannot give a definite answer. I will come back to the Deputy on that. The transfer of undertakings legislation and unfair dismissals legislation and redundancy would be involved but I will come back to the Deputy on the specific issue.

Deputy Lynch

I am not interested in the redundancy issue as that is straightforward, I am talking about job protection rather than conditions when they are being let go.

Mr. Cullinane

This is dealt with by the employment rights side of the Department, which is separate.

Deputy Lynch

Mr. Cullinane might come back to me about that because it is an important aspect of companies from outside the EU that operate within it. The figures for women's participation in the work force are interesting. Is there a breakdown? It is interesting to see that it is stated that by 2018 we will have reached our full potential in terms of participation in the work force and there will not be any new entrants, with the trend similar to other European countries with the fall in population with people not having as many children as they did in the past. This is worrying. At present there is a solution in that the work force is supplemented by workers from outside the State.

The report recommends that Ireland increase access to active labour market measures for a larger share of the unemployed and inactive population and ensure their effectiveness. To a great extent that includes those on community employment schemes doing the job that the State did until now and now we are removing all of this.

I note what was said about structure instead of increasing numbers. That worries me because most of us would want increasing numbers. There should be an increase in the supply and affordability of child care facilities and urgent action should be taken to tackle the cause of the gender pay gap. If we want people to have more children, it is self evident that better, affordable and accessible child care should be provided, and not have young women having to give up work because they could not afford to pay the child minder. We cannot encourage more women into the work force when there is no one to mind their children.

Equal pay legislation was first enacted in 1974 but women are still paid less. We have introduced a minimum wage and it should not be beyond our wit to insist that women are paid the same wage for the same work. It appears that the minimum wage gathered everyone in the net but the gender pay gap only affects women and as a result we can continually postpone dealing with it. I do not see why we have to ask for further action to tackle that. It should have been tackled long ago.

I am worried that Ireland is coming from such a low base when it comes to the life-long learning strategy to reduce early school leaving in all of these areas. Even Spain, which was until recently considered the poor relation in Europe, is streets ahead when it comes to education, child care facilities and community support. This is a broad and vague recommendation at a time when we are so far down the list and are coming from such a low base. I am surprised the other EU countries did not insist on a firmer recommendation. If we are talking about equal pay and the Tánaiste is boasting that the PDs introduced the minimum wage effectively within a year, why can women not have pay parity? It could be done overnight.

I do not understand why these recommendations are so vague. The report in October will be more specific but we should more proactive. When I meet people from other EU countries, I will ask them to put pressure on the Government because it appears that there is no great urgency about introducing measures to ensure the economy and society continue to grow. A national child minder's initiative was introduced recently as part of the programme. It provides child minder's development grants and continuing support for information, networking and training opportunities.

As part of the broader strategy for the development of child care under Sustaining Progress each county child care committee will identify local needs for child care and the current national child care strategy will be augmented by development of a further stream to achieve the objectives of making child care affordable for working parents. FÁS will continue to ring-fence child care places under the community employment schemes and to implement traineeships in child care at both work-ready and higher levels.

There is a lot happening, though we realise that more needs to be done. Initiatives have also been taken in the Civil Service. The Government has allocated €12.7 million in capital expenditure to provide for up to 15 Civil Service crèches. IDA Ireland has identified six of its existing business parks in which to develop child care facilities. FÁS is also operating at present a pilot child care allowance scheme. Its objective is to facilitate more people, particularly women, who wish to take up employment in the mainstream economy.

The scheme is modelled on the child care allowance being provided by the Department of Education and Science under respective VTOS, Youthreach and other return to education programmes. It is a pilot and is currently under review. Thus, a lot is being done at the moment as regards child care but we recognise that more must be done.

When talking about the gender pay gap we must draw a distinction between an equal pay and gender pay gap. They are not the same thing at all.

Deputy Lynch

No, women and men are paid equally badly at the lower scale. I understand that.

Mr. Cullinane

It is somewhat wider than that. The gender pay gap is an indicator. It gives an overall picture of inequality in pay in the whole economy. To address the whole issue of the gender pay gap, a whole range of responses are necessary. It means, as the Deputy said, differences in male and female labour participation. We need more female participation. It also boils down to career structures, differences in male and female wage structures and promotion policies.

On top of this we must give particular attention to reconciling work and family life. This is one of the issues giving rise to the gender pay gap. Women leave the workforce and then return again, and this is where the gap occurs. The problem is not in regard to equal pay for equal work.

Deputy Lynch

To clarify, there is actually a pay differential also, and it does not just arise because of career structure. SIPTU has done some research into this and, on average, women receive 72% of comparative male income. I accept fully that men and women are subject to the minimum wage. Both are paid equally badly. However, there is a gender pay differential also.

Senator Hanafin

I ask a specific question about the Council recommendations on the implementation of member states' employment policies. I understand that the situation worldwide is akin to where Ireland finds itself in Europe. We are no longer a low-cost manufacturing outpost. We have successfully managed this economy on the basis of high skills, upskilling and the knowledge-based economy — in other words, education.

In the future, any mobile foreign direct investment in the manufacturing or assembly area, where there is an absolute advantage in doing so, will go to China. Where there is a comparative advantage to manufacture in Europe the business will stay in Europe, but where there is an advantage worldwide it will go to China. Perhaps the message that should be taken back is that instead of investment in human capital and lifelong learning being No. 4 on the list of priorities, Europe will have to upskill.

We have lost ship building already, and to a smaller extent car manufacturing has been lost to Korea and Japan, with large numbers of Toyotas, Nissans, Daewoos and so on all manufactured in the Far East. When I was growing up in the early 1960s there were just English cars in Ireland. A German car or Ford from Cork were regarded as foreign. That is all over and Europe must reposition itself. The next thing to go will be car manufacturing, along with ship building. Companies like Peugeot, Audi and Mercedes will find themselves at a comparative disadvantage to China.

Europe, as a bloc, will have to upskill. Where there is an absolute advantage foreign direct investment will go to China. Of course there will always be a comparative advantage to Europe to manufacture locally. I accept that, but in terms of world manufacturing the future lies in the Pacific Rim and Europe must position itself so that its population is educated and highly skilled in computers and technology. Otherwise we will lose out because the Pacific countries simply have the numbers and it is cheaper to manufacture there.

Chairman

In early autumn we should perhaps also have a look at the issue of lifelong learning.

Deputy Murphy

The whole question of child care facilities is central if we are to encourage more people back to work. I am not sure if the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment knows exactly what is happening in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform at the moment because the whole child care situation is in crisis.

I come from an area where a child care facility was funded a couple of years ago by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform but was closed down last week. This was in the progressive town of Millstreet, County Cork, where the community has worked extremely hard to build a facility in co-operation with the Department. I accept that the capital grant was available but it is quite obvious now that the Department did not engage in long-term planning and most of these facilities are now becoming utterly non-viable. I know of another situation less than ten miles from that, and I am getting reports from all over the county of child care facilities in financial crisis. Very few of them will survive another year unless there is a restructuring of the financial backup being given to them.

There is a major crisis in this regard. It is real and is happening on the ground. The facilities are closing. If we are to move forward in this regard the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment must deal quickly with the issue, along with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, to ensure that, come September, the facilities already in place remain open, let alone strategically placing new facilities around the rest of rural Ireland.

It also concerns me to a certain extent when civil servants talk about restructuring the community employment schemes. We have had several arguments on the floor of the House about the whole position of community employment schemes over the last 12 months. There was a clear indication from the Government side at one stage that a social employment scheme would be set up. In rural areas and small towns and villages in particular, there are not the job opportunities that exist in the bigger cities and more populated areas, and there is a need for a social employment scheme of some type.

The objectives in these recommendations include getting disadvantaged people actively involved in the labour force so they can provide a service for the community and, by their work, generally improve the quality of life of their communities. Thus, when looking at restructuring community employment schemes one must look at the broader aspect and at the possibility of introducing some element of a social employment scheme in that context.

Chairman

I remind members that policy is the function of the Minister. We all know that. This is a discussion document for all member states.

Mr. Cullinane

I take Deputy Murphy's point on board. We will deal with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform in the next couple of months in drawing up the employment action plan so I will bring the Deputy's comments to the Department's attention. We must produce a report by 1 October. I take the Deputy's point. This is what the Lisbon Agenda is really about. The three recommendations are in no particular order in terms of priority. They may equally stand on their own right, and investing in human capital and resources is currently a very significant issue in the EU generally. That is one of the reasons we are trying to move away into research and development through Science Foundation Ireland. We realise that in future it will be very difficult to attract industry of the type to which the member has referred.

Chairman

Enterprise Ireland fully agrees with those comments.

Senator Murphy

Child care facilities are closing because of a lack of funding. Is it not critical if such a situation continues?

Mr. Cullinane

I accept the Senator's point. I am not able to comment on specific cases. I am not aware of them. It comes under the remit of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, and I will bring the matter to its attention.

Chairman

Do members agree that this proposal does not warrant any further scrutiny?

Deputy McHugh

Perhaps I might ask about the European employment strategy. Its objectives are being pursued under ten guidelines, the last of which concerns regional disparities and implementing policies to reduce gaps in regional employment and unemployment and increasing job creation in the regions through the development agencies. The national spatial strategy is involved in that issue. In this strategy, is anything happening in the Department to indicate that the Government might intend to reclaim ownership of the national spatial strategy? Is there anything happening that might make the whole process meaningful to the country or might inject a note of reality into the situation, perhaps bringing about something positive other than a simple PR exercise?

Chairman

I remind members that is outside the brief that we are discussing. When it comes to policy, members should refrain——

Deputy McHugh

I am just asking whether anything is happening in the Department.

Chairman

——until the Ministers or Ministers of State are here. If Mr. Cullinane wishes to make a comment, he may. If he does not, I will understand.

Deputy Lynch

It is fair to say that, if we get someone of Mr. Cullinane's ability here——

Deputy McHugh

The specific programme is mentioned in the documentation presented to us. I want to ask Mr. Cullinane whether anything real is happening in that regard or whether it is simply more paperwork or spoofing.

Chairman

That is the next question for the west of Ireland. Does Mr. Cullinane wish to comment on Deputy McHugh's question?

Mr. Cullinane

It is very difficult since, as the Chairman says, this is a policy decision for the Government. The national spatial strategy is the responsibility of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. As regards our own Department, the IDA and Enterprise Ireland are doing their utmost to try to create as many jobs as possible in the Border, midlands and west region. That is their responsibility.

Deputy McHugh

We have the answer. I asked umpteen times before.

Chairman

We will have the enterprise and trade report and have the Minister in here whenever members wish me to invite him. It must happen as early as possible since the report has now been published. Do members agree that this proposal does not warrant any further scrutiny? Agreed.

I thank Mr. Cullinane for his briefing and Mr. Dempsey and Mr. Maher for being with us today. I look forward to their coming to assist the committee many more times before the end of this Government term.

The joint committee went into private session at3.24 p.m. and resumed in public session at 3.26 p.m.

Chairman

We now move on to COM (2004) 95, which relates somewhat to what we have just heard and concerns a proposal for a regulation of the European Parliament and Council on statistics relating to vocational training in enterprises. I welcome Mr. Gerry O'Hanlon of the Central Statistics Office. I propose to follow the same format as before, beginning with the presentation from the CSO, followed by a question and answer session with members.

Mr. Gerry O’Hanlon

This proposal for a regulation of the Council and the Parliament concerning the collection of statistics on continuing vocational training within enterprises is in response to the increasing interest in lifelong learning, both throughout the European Union and nationally. In many respects, the statistical response to that goes on two tracks. One, which is currently before us, concerns the need to assess the extent to which enterprises are catering for the need for continuing training during employees' careers to upskill them and ensure that their skills remain competitive in the labour market as time progresses. The second element of that is the more direct assessment of the extent to which the population at large is engaging in lifelong learning. That is not the specific proposal here, but I bring it to members' attention that it is measured through household surveys such as the quarterly national household survey, and there may be some future proposals concerning the conduct of specific adult education surveys.

Here we have a proposal focused on the aspect of measuring what enterprises are doing with regard to promoting lifelong learning for their workforce. The survey now proposed is to be undertaken in 2006. It will be the third such survey conducted at European level. The previous two surveys were conducted on a voluntary basis, but with the increasing interest in the area and the need to ensure that information is comparable throughout the Community and quality assured, it was decided that, as has increasingly been the policy in recent years, the provision of statistics should be the subject of specific EU legislation.

The two previous surveys were conducted in about 2000 and five or six years earlier. They were not conducted by the Central Statistics Office but by FÁS. However, now that there is a proposal for it to be made a legal requirement, the duty of undertaking the survey is reverting to the Central Statistics Office. From the point of view of its impact, the survey will probably cover in the region of 2,000 enterprises — those employing ten or more persons. That means that in Ireland and the areas of the economy with which we are concerned, approximately one in ten enterprises will be included in it.

I draw the attention of the committee to Article 3 which gives a broad outline of the type of information to be collected. The specifics of the survey and what the questionnaire will look like are determined under Commission procedures. In other words, it will be the subject of a regulation of the Commission after consultation with the national statistical experts as to how it will be carried out in practice.

The explanatory memorandum to the survey states that the survey results can be used for benchmarking at several levels — EU, country or enterprise levels — for training provision on access to and participation in training, and on the intensity and cost of training. These are the objectives of the survey.

Chairman

The first question I wanted to ask is covered by that, in that one in ten of every small or medium-sized enterprise is included in the survey.

Mr. O’Hanlon

That is correct.

Chairman

Information is power and is vital for small and medium-sized enterprises. What is the likely cost of the survey? Have the small and medium-sized enterprises been consulted and what are their views of the survey?

Mr. O’Hanlon

In many respects we are at the start of the preparation process. I will consider cost in the context of two elements. Administrative costs will be largely determined by whether interviewers will have to be used or whether it will be a postal survey. In broad terms, the administrative costs of the survey may be something between €250,000 and €500,000.

Chairman

It is quite small.

Mr. O’Hanlon

Yes. The impact on the industries will vary. In many respects, the enterprises which provide training will normally tend to be au fait with this and will have the information readily available. Part of the survey asks enterprises about the training programmes they offer. In many respects, it is a question of identifying the right person within the organisation who can provide the information and this is what we will try to do. We have not conducted a specific survey in advance so I cannot give the committee the exact procedures we will follow.

However, when we have more specific details of the EU requirements, we would hope to engage in a consultation exercise with both the national users and providers. In particular, we will deal with providers in trying to assess how the information can best be obtained, whether they will be able to respond directly or whether this will be facilitated by having interviewers interview particular people within the enterprise. We would envisage this level of consultation on the assumption that the survey will go ahead in 2006. We will be in a position to commence this towards the end of this year or early next year.

Chairman

Would a statutory instrument obliging enterprises to provide information be used?

Mr. O’Hanlon

It is too early to take a firm position on that. We use a mixture of statutory instruments and voluntary participation in surveys. If a statutory instrument is used, this will be under the Statistics Act, under which the CSO operates. A survey such as this would be based largely on our assessment of what the likely co-operation with the survey would be. We tend as a first priority to try to persuade enterprises to co-operate with us. If we find that response levels are not sufficient, consideration is given to a statutory instrument.

Deputy Lynch

It seems an excellent idea because of the different pieces of unco-ordinated and contradictory information floating around. Would it be possible to have the statutory instrument applied to polling carried out by political parties during elections?

Chairman

Policy is a function of the Minister.

Deputy Lynch

This is not policy.

Mr. O’Hanlon

The CSO has not had the pleasure of engaging in polling. However, polling is undertaken largely in regard to households or individuals. The only survey of individuals or households which is the subject of a statutory instrument is the census.

Deputy Lynch

I thought Mr. O'Hanlon was going to say he wished the CSO's surveys were as accurate as those of political parties.

Deputy McHugh

Under this measure, can businesses be compelled to partake in a survey?

Mr. O’Hanlon

That option is open to us.

Deputy McHugh

While it is open to the CSO, is it set down in legislation?

Mr. O’Hanlon

The specific draft EU regulation says under Article 6 that the member states "may" make it compulsory for enterprises to reply to the survey; it does not say they "shall" make it compulsory. In that context, it would revert to CSO policy in regard to making a survey either compulsory or leaving it as voluntary. As I have indicated, our planning in regard to this survey has not reached a stage where we have determined whether it would be necessary to make it compulsory or whether it would be sufficient for us to conduct it on a voluntary basis.

Deputy McHugh

It would be extreme to make it compulsory. However, it would indicate the direction we are going in this country where one has to toe the line on everything.

Senator Hanafin

I welcome the fact that the CSO is undertaking this survey as it is the best equipped body to do so. While FÁS did a good job, for a specialised undertaking the CSO is the right body and I wish it well.

Chairman

Does the committee agree this proposal does not warrant any further scrutiny? Agreed. I thank Mr. O'Hanlon for attending and look forward to working closely with him over the next three years.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.38 p.m. and adjourned at 3.45 p.m. sine die.