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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE AND SMALL BUSINESS debate -
Wednesday, 26 Jan 2005

Grocery Prices: Presentation.

Today we have the honour and privilege of welcoming Ms Carmel Foley, the Director of Consumer Affairs. I remind the visitor that while the comments of members are protected by parliamentary privilege those of the visitor are not so protected. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Ms Foley to begin her submission. I welcome her and thank her for coming before the committee.

Ms Carmel Foley

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for considering this subject because occasionally I am asked why there are differentials in prices and so on. My response generally is to tell journalists to ask those who impose the prices, be they multiples, small shops, or whatever. These, however, are not always forthcoming with the media in explaining price differentials and their margins. Since early November 2004 the various transcripts of this committee's deliberations and the statements made by the players in the grocery industry have increased public knowledge.

I am also glad to be here because I deal with the grocery industry and sector generally. I do not cover all the areas with which the committee is dealing but I hope my written submission to the committee conveys some impression of the area with which I deal. Rather than repeat that I will make a few points.

All members have copies of the submission.

Ms Foley

My frequent dealings with the grocery sector intensified in the preparation for the changeover from the punt to the euro. The various parts of the sector did significant preparatory work for the changeover to make the price comparison and dual display of price right. My intensive meetings with all elements in the sector, grocery, hardware retailers and other suppliers of goods and services, gave my office an insight into how the sector works.

An organisation called EAN Ireland, recently renamed GS1 Ireland, ensures the integrity of bar-coding systems, that is, the price displayed on the shelf should match that charged at the till, which is achieved by bar-coding. I deal regularly with GS1 about its code of practice.

My office was established to enforce legislation pursuant to Acts passed by the Oireachtas and the specific orders dealing with different retail sectors. We give significant time to the issue of product pricing in the grocery sector, not only on the question of whether the price should be displayed but more recently the interesting legislation directing that the unit price must be shown. For example, not only is the price of a box of cornflakes displayed but the price per kilo as distinct from a kilo of rice krispies or other cereals or competing brands of similar products. This enables people to see what they are getting because packaging can be deceptive and a cereal box can contain a great deal of fresh air. Compliance with this legislation is good. It is positive that last year we made only seven prosecutions across a large sector.

Misleading price indications are the second major issue in this sector whereby the wrong price is displayed, or three for the price of two and other such offers are advertised. We are conducting a survey on that of which I will be glad to send the Chairman a copy when it is published.

When is that work expected to be finished?

Ms Foley

In a couple of months. Ideally, it will be in six to eight weeks time.

Is this specifically on misleading advertising?

Ms Foley

Yes, it will be on misleading price indication. A sample of 150 stores will be taken. It will be part of our ongoing work but this specific survey is being conducted separately. Members will be aware that we deal with food labelling. The food safety authority has a wider remit but we deal with items such as best before date, lists of ingredients and cases where it is necessary to put the product's origin on the label. The legislation states that the latter is necessary if the absence of origin could mislead a customer to a material degree.

Of more interest to the committee is our dealings with groceries order. It is part of our responsibility to enforce the order and to deal with complaints about it. As one can imagine, our enforcement of the order generally comes about on the basis of complaints. Unless there was a complaint, our inspectors looking at a product in a shop would not know it is being sold below cost. Another retailer will say to us that such a product is being sold below cost in a shop. Multiple retailers complain about other multiple retailers and so too do the symbol groups.

Enforcing the order is an ongoing business. It has been in place since 1987 and has generated much activity since then. Last year, there were four prosecutions. We have been in the media recently because of the outstanding issue on the matter of disposable nappies. Are disposable nappies household necessaries? This is the term used in the order for goods commonly sold in grocery outlets. Dunnes Stores has challenged our right to take the prosecution in the District Court. It also challenged the inclusion of disposable nappies as an item covered by the groceries order. We claim they are household necessaries as they are sold in grocery outlets. This will be heard next week in the High Court. The process has been going on since 2003. The selling of products in supermarkets at a lower price with the use of vouchers is also being challenged. One example of this is Tesco's selling of beer with discount vouchers. This is going to the High Court with the consent of both sides. Tesco and ourselves believe it is important to get legal certainty on the use of discount vouchers. It has come up before in the District Court. However, in this case, it will go to the High Court. The High Court will decide what is to be examined on 1 February. This is a preliminary part of the procedure.

What is your view on the use of free music compact discs to promote selling Sunday newspapers? This has a decimating effect on the local Irish music industry. Should the ban on below cost selling be retained? Is there a problem with the net invoice price concept? Are some suppliers operating a form of retail price maintenance? Is there sufficient competition and rivalry in the grocery trade? Have any grocery retailers ceased business due to competition in the last five years?

Ms Foley

I have not considered the issue of music freebies. It has not being brought to my office's attention. I understand the Chairman's point but it is outside our remit. I do not know if there are competition issues which would be appropriate to other legislation under the remit of the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

It is unfair trading, decimating family businesses and should be examined. If there have not been complaints, the office will certainly have one before the week is out.

Ms Foley

I would be glad to check with colleagues in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment as to whether it is covered by legislation. In my submission, I did not express a view on whether the ban on below cost selling should be retained. In one court case last year, a retailer's legal team brought up the fact that I had made a comment on the groceries order. As the groceries order falls in the competition arena, I merely said the order should be enforced by a body dealing with competition, such as the Competition Authority or another body. The competition legislation takes over from the groceries order in some areas such as abuse of a dominant position. This remark was made in more a housekeeping and administrative manner as concerning my office. Counsel for Dunnes Stores used this remark to claim that I, as Director of Consumer Affairs, did not believe in the groceries order in an attempt to undermine our prosecution. For that reason I have been careful not to say anything on such matters. When my office has been given legislation to enforce, it does so.

We also have some other prosecutions in the pipeline. I gather that because the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment has answered a parliamentary question on the groceries order, generally, there is no question of relocating from the place it is administered in the near future.

Was the case won?

Ms Foley

No. The case to which the Senator refers concerned a prosecution for below-cost selling of baby food and we won the case.

With regard to problems with the net invoice price and retail price maintenance, again we can only take into account what is on the invoice because of the way the groceries order is drafted. Questions have been raised about other arrangements which fall into some grey areas or are simply not clear. Examples from such areas cannot be relied upon in court, so we ignore them and concentrate on the net invoice price.

I was asked whether there was sufficient competition. From observation I would say a very wide range of outlets is available, from multiples to deep discounters to local shops to forecourt retailing, which has become pervasive. My impression is there is widespread competition compared to some other sectors I might deal with which are much more troublesome.

The director is happy there is enough competition in this sector.

Ms Foley

Again, because I have neither the remit nor the funds for research, I am giving the committee my impressions based on the fact that my office does not get many complaints about prices, as such, or lack of competition in the sector.

I welcome the director. Her office is important in that it draws attention to the fact the consumer is a major player in the market as well. I have read her submission and taken on board all that she said. I understand fully why she is not inclined to air her opinions publicly about certain elements of her remit.

Leaving aside the legislation for the moment, that is, without commenting on it directly, can she tell the committee from her experience whether the ban on below-cost selling is a deterrent to competition? I will clarify what I mean for the director. Basically, she has to take the invoice price into account which includes transport costs etc., whatever it takes to put the product on the shelf. Allowing for the fact that multiples may or may not employ economies of scale to achieve lower transport costs and so on, does this inhibit competition per se? The question does not refer directly to any cases she may have coming up. Does the ban on below-cost selling inhibit competition?

I welcome Ms Foley to the committee. I wish to touch on a matter that was raised by the Chairman and about which I have had some complaints, that is, grocery retail outlets which are deemed to be supermarkets and what they are allowed to sell. For example, there is a small record shop near my home and a large Tesco store also. Tesco has a system whereby if someone buys €60 worth of food he or she gets a free CD. Some people maintain the store is selling CDs at well below the price a retailer can buy them for. Is there any clear-cut definition as regards what a grocery store is allowed to sell? My point is that by doing that the large multiple is putting the small player out of business who may be employing a few local people. It would be a pity if that is allowed to continue. Also, magazines are being sold at well below cost price. Some of these outlets have petrol forecourts attached, again selling at below-cost prices. Incidentally, the price of petrol varies from place to place, and there are significant price differences in some cases. I would like the director's views on these points.

Ms Foley

Is the ban a deterrent to competition? Again from observation, the ban does not cover everything such as, for example, fresh goods. There is nothing to prevent someone from selling such goods below cost price in order to attract customers into his or her store. The ban stops someone selling below cost but it does not prevent selling at cost price if he or she wants to be very competitive. In other words, competition may be brought about in a variety of ways.

Mention was made in the media of the fact that the State, in effect, was stopping the children of Ireland from getting cheap baby food. Clearly, the competitors in question who were selling the below cost baby food were trying to get people into their shops on children's allowance day. They were not going to sell below cost or very cheap baby food forever. They were doing this during a price war to get customers in. It was not as if the customers were going to be deprived of this great advantage, cheap baby food, by the groceries order. These are initiatives which are part of the competition and rivalry of the marketplace, but I would not be swayed by some argument that says such cheap offers are available ad infinitum. They are being offered because someone else may have put an advertisement in the newspaper and this needed to be counteracted. There are many ways of competing and of providing a service for people.

That brings me to Deputy Martin Brady's question about small stores providing a service and small retailers in contrast to the multiples which offer CDs, etc. The Deputy mentioned petrol. To answer his question, there is no definition as regards what they are or are not allowed to sell in that sense. There is nothing to prevent them. On one occasion a petrol retailer complained bitterly to me about supermarkets selling petrol. I had to say to him, "But you sell groceries, do you not?" From the viewpoint of the customer our office has to stand in the shoes of the consumer and if he or she has a choice of outlets for groceries I do not believe petrol retailers can honestly object to petrol being sold while they continue to sell groceries. I believe that is how the ordinary citizen might view matters without any role as regards the legislation defining what may be sold in particular outlets.

There is great variation in the price of petrol. We enforce the legislation that stipulates the price of petrol must be clearly displayed. It is a legal requirement that the figures must be very clear and must not be obscured, as in one recent case, by shrubbery. There is a role for legislation as regards the displaying of petrol prices, but that is as far as it goes so far as the Office of Consumer Affairs is concerned.

I have a short supplementary question, which will not detain the director. In the area that is not covered by the groceries order — fresh vegetables, food and meat — does she see any great rush to below-cost selling?

Ms Foley

I do not.

There is nothing to prevent anyone from doing so.

Ms Foley

That is correct.

The family butcher has survived quite well in rural Ireland.

That would probably indicate that if the groceries order were to be abolished, we would not see any great rush in any of the areas concerned.

I welcome Ms Foley. What would happen if the order was removed? Which retailers would gain and which, if any, would lose? Does Ms Foley think fresh foods should be included if the order is retained? Does she also think the cap on retail planning guidelines should be removed? What would be the effect if it was?

There is traceability and labelling of normal products but there are many own brand products. To what extent is there traceability of such products in terms of its quality?

What remit does Ms Foley's office have in respect of markets which spring up around the country? Every large town now has one on a Sunday or Monday morning. From time to time many branded goods are displayed on stalls at these markets. It has been suggested by some, including the Garda in particular, that these products are on display as a result of robberies and racketeering. It is difficult for the Garda to proffer charges against the individuals selling such goods as they will buy a quantity of the branded product from a supplier and have an invoice for the purchase. Nonetheless, it is suspected that much of the product comes from robberies. Branded products like St. Michael or St. Bernard will not be found as they are not sold to the retail trade. Does Ms Foley's remit extend to controlling these markets? If particular products cannot be sold at cheaper prices than what consumers can buy them for in shops, it is not in the interests of the paying public to purchase them there.

Ms Foley

To answer Senator Coghlan's question first, I do not know what would happen if the order were removed. In some of the responses received from the multiples, they did not seem to have any great view on it one way or another. They stated they had not considered what they would do and did not have a view. They also stated they watched each other. If one moves, the others follow. It is very hard to know. There are substantial reports both in favour and against retaining the ban. It would be difficult for an office like ours with no research capacity to second guess on either side. The consumer strategy group, an outside group looking at the consumer area, will soon report to the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. Part of its remit was to look at the retail sector, including the groceries order. I imagine it will have a strong consumer view on this issue. If fresh products are to reach the end of their shelf life, a retailer should be allowed to sell such products at a discount. That is why it made sense to exclude fresh products from the order.

The retail planning guidelines are outside the remit of the Office of the Director of Consumer Affairs. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has to deal with them.

I was just trying to find out what was Ms Foley's opinion on the issue.

Ms Foley

I happen to shop locally, rather than going to large outlets. I do a lot of last minute shopping.

There is growth in convenience shopping.

Ms Foley

Dashboard dining is the phrase used.

Many people are unable to shop in the major multiples at the times they are open.

Ms Foley

I want to respond to Deputy Callanan's question about the traceability of own brands. The labelling regulations we enforce cover the provenance of the foodstuff. The Health and Safety Authority has to ensure traceability from a health point of view. Meeting requirements like the best before date, the list of ingredients and indicating who to call if one has problem satisfies the provisions of the legislation.

Must the place of manufacture be listed on products?

Ms Foley

They do not have to do so. The retailer which sells it is listed. Therefore, a consumer can go back to the store where it was bought, rather than the manufacturer. If a person buys something that goes off, he or she has a place to which he or she can bring it back.

Is its provenance still a secret?

Ms Foley

Under the legislation, that is all they have to do.

Does Ms Foley think this is still enough?

Ms Foley

We are talking about someone who wants to go back to where the product was actually made. In the immediate term I hope the retailer would answer any questions a consumer might have. For country of origin, the legislation is not as clear as it could be.

Or should be.

Ms Foley

I have made this view known previously. If I am not mistaken, it is up to the Minister for Agriculture and Food to enforce this provision. My office does not require the labelling to which the Deputy refers.

Some people have to go to a lot of bother to make sure they show where the product comes from. However, there is nothing on own products or own brands.

Ms Foley

Yes, there is a difference. To reply to Deputy Nolan on markets and counterfeit goods, we have had some dealings with the Garda because in Ireland these matters are handled by the Garda. In the UK, our counterparts, the trading standards officers, who are similar to our inspectors, have a major remit in regard to counterfeit goods. My office does not have such a remit because the Garda deal with this area.

I was not talking about counterfeit goods but about branded products, be it hardware, grocery products, Mars bars or anything which would come under the remit of Ms Foley's office. There is a huge market for these goods when sold from trailers and stalls, which are the outlets for many of the major robberies. The proceeds of such robberies are run through the markets because it is not possible to run them through legitimate retail stores. Does Ms Foley's remit cover her staff going to such markets to look at the prices being charged? The attraction for the consumer is that they can get branded genuine products at a knock-down price.

Ms Foley

I am sorry, I misunderstood the Deputy and was thinking of counterfeit goods. Branded goods are dealt with only by the Garda, as I understand it. However, given the Deputy's point, I will ascertain whether we can assist the Garda in that sense.

My point is that in order for the products to be attractive to consumers, they have to be sold at a lower price. As these are branded products, consumers are getting value for money.

Ms Foley

I understand.

However, the producer loses out because of the heist and the Government loses out on taxation. It is an area that should be considered.

Ms Foley

I will come back to the committee on whether there is action we can take.

I welcome the Director of Consumer Affairs, Ms Foley. She does an extraordinarily important job for consumers. Does she believe her office is properly resourced to carry out its work on behalf of Irish consumers? Has her office a good working relationship with the Consumers' Association of Ireland? Should the public be more proactive in regard to their involvement in consumer associations?

In particular, does Ms Foley's office monitor advertisements in Sunday newspapers? Most of the Sunday newspapers contain two-page advertisements of special offers inserted by the multiples. Are such advertisements monitored? Regardless of whether there are complaints from members of the public, does Ms Foley have the power to monitor advertisements to ensure fair competition is operating? This is particularly relevant in regard to small rural shops, which are under significant pressure due to the difference in buying power between small shops and the multiples.

With regard to the competition from the North during the Christmas period, there was particular targeting of consumers in the Republic in regard to drink products. I know Ms Foley has no remit in this area. I do not know whether there is any proposal for an all-Ireland consumer affairs directive or that Ms Foley has a good working relationship with her colleague in Northern Ireland. However, it is extraordinary that drink products can be sold in Enniskillen, Newry and elsewhere at low cost. Many people travelled from the Republic to the North to buy drink and, despite the exchange rate, could buy it cheaper than in the Republic. The Northern shops — there is no law against this — took advertisements in the regional press, including the Longford Leader and other Longford and Roscommon newspapers, advertising low priced goods. This attracted great attention.

Consumers will always know the price of petrol or diesel. However, there is great difference in price throughout the country in that petrol can cost from, for example, 86.5 cent to €1.04.3. Strangely, petrol is always more expensive than diesel. While this may not be Ms Foley's area, it places a question mark over the price issue. Does she believe there should be a maximum price order in regard to petrol and diesel because of the variety of prices throughout the country? When one visits a town, one finds the fuel price the same throughout the town. While there may be no monopoly or no suggestion of collusion, it is clear prices are kept the same because retailers would go out of business if they did not do so.

I welcome Ms Foley and thank her for her responses. I wish to raise the price of chicken in supermarkets. One often sees offers such as "two for the price of one" or "single chicken at 99 cent". This is below cost selling which, while good for the consumer, puts the producer under severe pressure. At the same time, there are imports of doubtful origin and similar competition. How does this fit into the scheme? Does Ms Foley agree with what is stated in some quarters, namely, that Ireland is a rip-off country?

As one who shops, it always astonishes me how little I know of individual prices per item whereas ten years ago, I could rattle off the cost of a pint of milk or loaf of bread. Is Ms Foley in favour of reintroducing individual pricing per item? Prices are displayed on the end of the shelf but one would probably have to look at the price of ten different items to find the item one wants. While I do not want to advertise for anyone, if one wants 200 grams of Kellogg's cornflakes, one must look at several price tags. People just do not do this any more. Bar-coding may be great for stock-taking but is not great for the consumer.

Ms Foley

My office is awaiting the report of the consumer strategy group to the Minister to ascertain what proposals it has for expanding the remit. As an enforcement office which enforces legislation and provides information, other functions could be assigned to it, for example, education functions which would be more detailed than information functions.

On the question of the Consumers' Association of Ireland, there is no substitute for the lobbying done by a membership organisation if one considers other areas of society where people join groups as members and decide to be proactive. It is interesting to note how many websites have sprung up, such as shoppingbill.com and bettervalueireland.com. One can have all the Government offices one likes but it would be good to have people power and stronger membership bodies. I regularly point out that joining the CAI is a positive measure people could take. We have close links with the association.

We monitor newspaper advertisements to find whether they are misleading. While I know the two-page insets to which Senator Leyden refers, I will only know whether individual items advertised are below cost if somebody contacts my office to complain that a retailer could not be selling, for example, a soft drink at a certain price. Sometimes when we investigate such a case, it turns out that while a supplier may have told a smaller shop it does not supply a larger retailer at a certain price, it has done so. This cheap price might have been a once-off special deal with the multiple. If that is the case, there would be no prosecution. However, suppliers may have a case to answer in some instances as to whether they have sold below cost.

This means, therefore, that there is a way of getting around a minimum price order. If a wholesaler makes a deal with a retailer and undersells the product to it, Ms Foley is saying the wholesaler cannot be prosecuted. If it invites the product to a shop, even at a below cost price, Ms Foley's office cannot prosecute the shop.

Ms Foley

It is a fact that on that occasion, it has not sold it to the shop.

This proves the point that the multiples have more power to buy from the wholesaler or producer than the small rural shop. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

Ms Foley

That is true.

Ms Foley put her finger on a practice that has been happening for a long time.

We will make our recommendations to the Government and the Minister regarding this inquiry. Is Ms Foley telling the committee that someone can, for promotional purposes, sell below cost and by doing so severely damage the career of an established family business, perhaps for generations?

Ms Foley

They could not sell below cost where the supplier has sold at a particular price.

That is not the point. Let us say the recommended cost price of a product is €1. If that product is used for promotional purposes by a multinational or other large store as fair competition to a family business which has been in existence for generations and is trying to survive, has Ms Foley any powers in this regard?

Ms Foley

In that example, a particular supplier has sold a product at a promotional price to a retailer. We would get complaints where retailers genuinely believe that an advertisement must be in contravention of the legislation and the price must be below cost. However, on investigation, we would find the prosecution does not hold up.

That is the most damning evidence presented to this inquiry. It is totally unfair. The committee will have to deal with this matter as strongly as possible in our recommendations. If this is allowed to continue, there is no such thing as a groceries order.

That is a key point. If wholesalers or producers are selling below cost to the multiples, the multiples are exempt from the law or have found a way around the law. I am pleased the Chairman has exposed this point.

We will deal with that in our recommendations.

Ms Foley

I will move on to the question of the price of chicken. How a chicken can be produced at the stated price often makes me scratch my head. However, as Deputy Wilkinson noted, one might get two for the price of one and, as it is fresh meat, there is no ban on reducing the price in order to sell before it reaches the limit of its shelf life.

The Deputy asked whether Ireland is a rip-off country, which is a very general phrase. As a small country with a small market, prices will not be as low as in a bigger market. Ireland has less than four million consumers whereas the UK and France have 60 million each. Ireland does not have the same economies of scale. However, consumers are now becoming conscious of the action they can take.

It was intriguing that one group I thought immune from price competition, the publicans, are now finding that the price they charge is no longer acceptable. Although the smoking ban is often mentioned in this regard, consumers are becoming increasingly aware. When one must pay more for a pint of cidona or rock shandy than for a pint of cider or beer, one realises something is very wrong. At least when alcohol is sold, revenue goes to the Exchequer through excise. Consumer power is at long last beginning to stir and this is counteracting some of the high prices.

Deputy Lynch asked about individual pricing per item. Although no legislation covers this area, I raised the matter with retailers for the reasons mentioned. When there were price tags on a pound of butter, we knew how much it was. However, because of the significant increase in the number of lines carried even by small shops, it was put to me that it would add prohibitively to labour costs to have staff with pricing guns pricing every single item, as was the case in the past. While I raised the matter out of interest as no legislation is in place to compel retailers in this regard, I agree labels helped consumers to be aware of prices.

I thank Ms Foley for a very informative briefing. I look forward to working with her for the remainder of the lifetime of the Government.

We move on to the presentation by Marks and Spencer (Ireland) Limited. I welcome Mr. Jonathan Glenister, divisional food manager, and Mr. Neil Hyslop, divisional executive for Ireland. The delegation will make their presentation, which will be followed by a question and answer session. While members have parliamentary privilege, unfortunately, visitors do not.

Mr. Neil Hyslop

I thank you, Chairman, for your welcome and for inviting Marks and Spencer to attend, as well as for rescheduling this presentation from the intended date in November last.

I believe Marks and Spencer had an opening that day.

Mr. Hyslop

Yes, we were opening a new store in Blanchardstown.

Is it going well?

Mr. Hyslop

Very well. We would like to provide the committee with an overview of the Marks and Spencer business in Ireland, along with our approach to pricing management within the local market, reassuring the committee that our interests are driven by the consumer at all times. Trading throughout the UK and Ireland, Marks and Spencer has 408 outlets, with 17 in the island of Ireland and eight in the Republic. Marks and Spencer is proud of its long-term relationship with both the Republic and the North of Ireland. We first began to trade in the Republic in 1979 with the opening of our Mary Street store in Dublin. Some 25 years on, Marks and Spencer has a significant food retail operation in Ireland.

Marks and Spencer is a multi-format retailer with outlets ranging from the departmental out-of-town stores, such as at Liffey Valley, to in-town stores in Mary Street and Cork, and our latest convenience format stores, Simply Foods, which have recently opened in Dún Laoghaire, Naas and Clarion Quay. Along with our UK business partners, we have identified the Irish market as one in which we have a desire to grow, both in terms of the number of stores and market penetration, extending our reach in time to more customers outside the existing Dublin and Cork areas.

The opening of three Simply Food stores in the Republic has been a significant development. The Irish business has been part of a rapid roll-out of over 150 Simply Food stores across the UK and Ireland, taking our convenient product to more convenient locations.

In terms of employee numbers, Marks and Spencer (Ireland) employs over 4,000 people with over 2,000 in the Republic. Our growth programme has moved apace in the past 18 months having already more than doubled the number of our stores from four to eight. This is as a result of store openings in Dún Laoghaire, Naas, Clarion Quay and Blanchardstown. The opening of these stores has meant we have employed an additional 370 people. This growth in employee numbers will continue as we open a new 80,000 sq ft store in Dundrum in March, which will create another 350 jobs. Therefore, total employee numbers are over 47% up on those of 18 months ago.

Our reputation as an employer that places huge emphasis on employee relations is evident in the loyalty we receive. Over 25% of the original staff who worked in the Mary Street store 25 years ago are still with us today. All of our employees continue to make a remarkable contribution to our business in Ireland.

The Irish market in the convenience sector is highly developed and very competitive. For our form of food retailing to work we need to be customer focused. Marks and Spencer aspires to set leading standards in all we do. Our customers understand this and quite rightly demand outstanding quality and integrity from all of our products. For us to maintain our marketplace position with regard to foods we must be highly innovative.

In terms of Marks and Spencer, our overall customer offer is made up of clothing, homeware and foods, the latter representing some 40% of our business. It is important to understand, in the context of today, that the Marks and Spencer food business is different from our high-volume supermarket competitors. We are not a supermarket, rather a food retailer offering a tailored range of highly innovative, high quality products which represent good value. Our food product mix consists of approximately 2,800 high quality products of good value. This catalogue is much smaller than the average supermarket which may offer up to 30,000 lines. For us to maintain our leading standards on foods, innovation is paramount. Annually, we offer customers over 1,200 new lines, equivalent to over 25 products per week. However, ultimately, the customers themselves decide if they are to be successful. As a result of this, our competitive advantage is primarily based on innovation, product quality and taste rather than price.

Mr. Jonathan Glenister will explain, in more detail, the make-up of our food business.

Mr. Jonathan Glenister

In taking a more detailed look at the product proposition for Marks and Spencer, a key differentiation in order for us to compare ourselves with competitors is that cold chain products predominate our product mix, representing 70% of our overall business. We are market leaders with regard to our strength within the ready-meal sector. In terms of creating top quality convenience foods, they are about saving preparation time at home for the consumer.

We also pride ourselves in terms of the quality and range we offer within the more staple lines, such as poultry and meats, dairy, salads, vegetables and fruit. Everything we sell is own-brand or own-label unique to us and supplied by a dedicated supply base. This provides us with complete trust and quality in our products throughout the production process, from the farm gate to the consumer's plate. As a result, we have a unique competitive advantage as the importance of food traceability becomes higher on the consumer's agenda. This is evident in how consumers turn to us during times of concern, as was demonstrated during the recent salmonella egg and salmon health scares when our sales increased. We have some of the best animal traceability in the industry and fresh meat and poultry come from select Irish farms in the North and South of Ireland.

To achieve this level of product development, we need a highly dedicated supply base prepared to work to the exacting standards our customers demand and with the confidence to invest with us for the future. We have had great success achieving these objectives in the Republic of Ireland and combining our demanding standards with the expertise of the local agri-food sector. The clearest sign of this successful partnership is that many of our suppliers have been working with Marks and Spencer for over 25 years, with the volume of product purchased from the island of Ireland ever increasing.

Currently, we have 20 local suppliers, island-wide, supplying us with over 250 products. Supplier relationships are a key value in our business and many of them have grown considerably as we have grown. Some 50% of our local suppliers are based in the Republic of Ireland, namely Glenpatrick Spring Water, Slaney Foods, Monaghan Mushrooms, Dunnes Seafood, Kerry Foods, Cooley Distillery, Horgans cheese, Cuisine de France and Dublin-Meath Growers. All of these supply our Ireland-wide, and sometimes UK-wide, business. This is in addition to our Northern Ireland suppliers, such as O'Kane Poultry, Ormeau breads, Avondale, Wilson's potatoes — who derive much of their crop from the Republic — Dromona dairy, Grampion Foods, Lynn's county farm and St. Brendan's. In addition to these direct suppliers, we have an ever-increasing number of key growers in the Republic who indirectly supply our island of Ireland business. For example, Keeling's Fruit Farm supplier became the sole soft fruit provider to the island of Ireland business and has now enabled us to offer, for example, strawberries, raspberries and blueberries to our 17 stores here.

Sales of locally-supplied products have increased by over 50% in the past two years and will continue to grow. This has not only been as a result of new store openings but also of new product development and exporting contracts to our UK business. In fact, 60% of our suppliers have benefited from exporting contracts to our UK business and are now a substantial provider of drinks, meats, poultry, salads and vegetable to our near 400 stores in the UK. Our relationship with Glenpatrick Spring Water is a visible prime example of how this has benefited a local supplier in the Republic of Ireland. Marks and Spencer has led the way in terms of product innovation and development of a range of still, sparking and flavoured waters and cordials with a catalogue of over 50 lines. As a result of this growth and innovation, Glenpatrick Spring Water is now exporting this range of water and soft drinks, worth tens of millions of euro each year, to the Marks and Spencer business, UK and Ireland-wide.

Last year, total spend with local food suppliers for our island of Ireland business was in excess of €100 million at retail value. Within key market products, such as poultry, meats and dairy, the percentage to total of locally-supplied products to our Irish stores is far greater. For example, 100% of meat and poultry is locally sourced, 95% of ambient drinks and 70% of dairy products.

However, it is worth noting that specialising as we do in ready-meal solutions brings with it challenges in balancing the percentage of food sourced locally with economies of scales and logistics requirements of production and distribution of these types of products. We have had recent successes with technological innovation which has allowed us use Irish beef within key ready-meals allowing us to reintroduce ranges back to the Irish consumer. As a result of this success we will be pursuing additional lines.

Marks and Spencer also spends in excess of €50 million on 150 other local service providers in the Republic of Ireland. One of the largest of these is our logistics provider, TDG, which has been working with us since our first store opened here 25 years ago. It has also benefited from our continued growth, both in transporting goods from the UK and also in providing logistics solutions more locally and providing that service to local stores.

The committee has asked us to touch on the price of groceries here versus the price of those offered in the UK. There is no doubt the competitive environment of the marketplace is in itself one of the most significant developments of the past five years, particularly here in the Irish markets. The convenience sector within which we trade here has also become one of the most competitive. Unlike the UK shopping environment, it is dominated by more local, smaller convenience stores that represent a larger percentage of the consumers' shop, which we know is approximately 20% of their overall expenditure.

We work hard to ensure the Irish consumer is getting the best possible value from Marks and Spencer. We are constantly reviewing our prices. We have lowered in price over 65% of our catalogue, which represents over 1,800 lines, over the past 12 months. As we have grown, economies of scale have enabled us to reinvest in price reductions for the consumer. We have taken a local decision here to ensure some of the staple grocery lines are among the best value on the high street. For example, products such as milk, tea, coffee, bananas, eggs and cheese are at the same or lower in price and compare with products on the high street with retailers such as Dunnes or Tesco. The press has also focused heavily on the rip-off Ireland campaign. In every article to date we have scored very favourably in terms of price comparisons with our UK products. In commenting on the prices of our products quotes from the press in 2004 include from The Irish Times, “Prices at Marks and Spencer, however, were virtually the same in both jurisdictions”; the Irish Independent noted: “The rip offs are not uniform as Marks and Spencer charge almost identical prices in Ireland and the UK”; The Sun stated that “Marks and Spencer Irish prices were marginally cheaper than in the UK”; the Kildare Times wrote encouragingly, “Marks and Spencer prices are virtually identical in both countries so there is no obvious reason for this rip off”; and The Sunday Business Post stated, “Marks and Spencer has a more equitable pricing structure in Britain and Ireland, according to a sample survey that we conducted last week.” These articles demonstrate in themselves the approach we have taken in ensuring that our products represent great value for the Irish consumer today.

Mr. Hyslop

In summary, the Marks and Spencer business in Ireland is growing. However, this growth will only be possible if we get it right for the customer. We will seek continued growth in our Irish supplied product, which is already 50% up on two years. Our food prices are an important component of our proposition and we will continue to offer value for money for our Irish customers, with product development and quality being the other key drivers that will determine our overall success.

Thank you. From the experience we have gained, we have asked you to detail matters the committee was interested to know to help us to arrive at conclusions in our first interim report. I am particularly impressed by the submission and the evidence to the committee that your prices here are almost identical to those in the UK. Are there any products that you could sell in your stores in Ireland and the UK if they were manufactured in Ireland? We have put the same question to other companies that have come before the committee. I see the 408 Marks and Spencer outlets as a marvellous opportunity for Irish growers and for products not being manufactured here at present. Our top graduates might be encouraged to get involved in market research to work hand in hand with your company and create more jobs for Irish people.

I welcome the delegation from Marks and Spencer. As one who has shopped in your stores both in England and Cork I agree with everything the delegation has said. Marks and Spencer is not the run of the mill supermarket; it specialises in food presentation. If you cannot answer this awkward question I will not be insulted. Does the delegation have any opinion on the reason the prices of the multiples, who operate in both jurisdictions, vary so much? The multiples come in and say they are doing exactly what you are doing, encouraging local production, bringing on product lines and selling them to their stores outside the jurisdiction. Up to the point of price comparison they are doing the same as Marks and Spencer. Where does the difference arise? I do not imagine those who own Marks and Spencer take a lesser profit.

I thank the delegation for its interesting presentation. I understand your prices are generally similar, but in many of the documents that have come before us the prices are higher than in other countries. What is the main reason Ireland may be a dearer place in which to work, if that is the problem? What can Government do to reduce the price of the product?

On the issue of the planning guidelines and the cap on the size of stores, Marks and Spencer is a large company. Is it involved in any larger stores in other countries and, if so, what difference has it made? If and when the cap is lifted, will it have a negative effect on small producers? The delegation mentioned that Marks and Spencer has much of its own labelling but it also appears to have traceability, on which I compliment the delegation. Will the delegation explain the difference between your own products and products in different outlets that do not appear to have the same traceability?

Mr. Hyslop

On the question of whether there is the ability to pick up more product from the Irish market, we are very keen to do so and would welcome people who think they have an opportunity to work with us, whom we would not necessarily be aware of, to make themselves known to us in our office in Mary Street. We have technologists working with growers to develop business with them and they are always looking for alternative supplies and at what product we can bring in locally. Clearly that benefits the wider community and it works for us in terms of minimising transport costs. We would be open to that proposition and have increased the number of our suppliers in recent years. That is something we would want to carry on with.

What percentage of product is being bought in Ireland? Is it 30% or 35%?

Mr. Hyslop

It varies. In the areas of meat and poultry it would be 100% but in the area of wine there would not be that base here. It varies significantly by category.

Mr. Glenister

To add to that point, the strength within our business is in the convenience food market. The exclusivity of readymeal production brings that challenge. We try to balance how we source locally without the added cost of huge infrastructure requirement by a supplier that may become a readymeal provider in the island of Ireland or in the Republic. That is one of the challenges we have to weight up with our unique product mix. Certainly I am emphasising that with raw materials such as salad, vegetables, meat and poultry it becomes much easier for us. A great innovation we have used with lasagne and spaghetti bolognese is that we are using local raw material in a readymeal product for us to sell here.

Mr. Hyslop

It is difficult for me to comment on the other multiples because I do not fully understand the full make-up of all their costs. If they want to share that with me I will be delighted to receive that information. I could then comment in a wider sense. We feel under great pressure from the consumer in that we feel the customer is king. It is clear they have a choice. We are working to develop innovative products and so on and we have got to get the price right. There are costs that are higher in Ireland than elsewhere. We have to look at how we can mitigate those costs in other parts of our business to provide the product at the right price for the customer. As part of our expanding business that is the approach we are taking. I am not sure if that would be different from the other multiples. It is difficult for me to comment on how they are approaching it.

With regard to the planning guidelines, in terms of the format we use here and in the UK, they would not directly impact on us in that we do not have any supermarkets or food retail outlets the size of which would be greater than 30,000 sq ft. We are not in the business of providing bulky goods. In that sense, the guidelines do not directly affect us. It comes back to the customer being king. Many new entrants that have come into a differently regulated UK market have not succeeded. An operator being big does not necessarily equate to success. One has to give the customers what they want at the right price and in the right location. If one gets that amalgam of things right, the operation will work.

Mr. Glenister

With regard to the second question on traceability, it is one of our unique strengths. As to how we compare to other retailers' own labels, I am not sure about their processes. In regard to our process before launching a product, I point out that everything we sell is our own label. That gives us trust, integrity and knowledge right from the birth of a product to the selling of it in our stores. That unique relationship with our supply base means that we can and do trace and that we have traceability. We have traceability right down to our ready meals as well as to raw materials. We are the only retailer that uses free range eggs in our recipe dishes. We are also the only retailer that can trace the beef source within a ready meal as well as joint of beef of the shelf, in respect of which the question of traceability is now fairly well recognised.

You are the only operator that has total traceability. Well done on that.

Mr. Glenister

Yes, because of that unique relationship and the way we manufacture products. We are half manufacturer and half retailer because of that unique relationship.

I thank you for coming here to assist the committee. Most of our members are caught up due to the Dáil resuming today. The representatives were fortunate in that respect. I look forward to working with you over the next three years given that there are two and a half years remaining of this Government. Will you supply your full brief in order that we can pass it to our colleagues who could not be here today because of the Dail resuming?

We have been very enlightened by your submission. I am much more confident about the industry when I hear a submission like yours. If you submit your submission to the clerk within the next week, we will circulate it to our members.

Mr. Glenister

Thank you.

The joint committee went into private session at 2.03 p.m. and adjourned at 2.05 p.m. until 12.15 p.m. on Thursday, 27 January 2005.

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