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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE AND SMALL BUSINESS debate -
Wednesday, 15 Jun 2005

Scrutiny of EU Proposals.

I welcome Ms Mary Butler, Mr. John Callinan and Mr. Seán Hurley from the Department of the Taoiseach; Ms Lorraine Benson and Mr. Pádraic Cullinane from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, and Mr. Joe Kirwan from the Department of Finance. I also welcome Mr. John Kissane, the committee's consultant. The joint committee has asked the officials to discuss COM (2005) 141, Integrated Guidelines for Growth and Jobs 2005-2008, which includes a Commission recommendation on the broad guidelines for the economic policies of member states and the Community and a proposal for Council decisions and guidelines for the employment policies of member states.

Before asking members of the delegation to commence their presentation, I draw their attention to the fact that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not extend to them. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The delegation's attendance at the joint committee is timely, given the creation of 72,400 jobs during the past 12 months. I welcome Senator Coghlan, the only member of the Opposition parties present. I now invite Ms Butler to make the presentation.

Ms Mary Butler

I am happy to be here to make it. As mentioned by the Chairman, I am accompanied by colleagues from the Departments of the Taoiseach, Finance and Enterprise, Trade and Employment. We welcome the opportunity to appear before the joint committee to discuss the proposed integrated guidelines for growth and jobs. I will make a short presentation in which I will outline the main elements of the proposed guidelines.

Have members received a copy of the submission?

Ms Butler

We had intended to make a Powerpoint presentation. I understand committee members have received a copy of the slides which I will go through and outline the main features of the proposed guidelines. Following the presentation, my colleagues and I will be happy to engage in a discussion with members or answer any questions they may have.

This communication has been presented by the European Commission in accordance with a request from the European Council in March this year. It arises from the mid-term review of the Lisbon Agenda at the end of the first five year period. The agenda runs from 2000 to 2010. I will return to its content.

At the March European Council Heads of State and Government agreed that urgent action was required to renew the European economy and strengthen social cohesion. The guidelines document presented by the European Commission provides the basis for the relaunch of the Lisbon Agenda. It is a framework document which reflects a new approach to governance based on a three year cycle commencing this year and to be renewed in 2008. The new integrated guidelines reflect what the Commission describes as new simplified and streamlined arrangements about which we will speak a little more.

In its first five year period the Lisbon Agenda has laid foundations, provided a legislative framework, a number of action programmes and agreed key reforms, for example, liberalisation of energy and telecoms markets. The mid-term review showed that progress was at best mixed. The goal was to make the European Union the most dynamic and competitive knowledge based economy in the world capable of sustaining economic growth with more and better jobs, greater social cohesion and respect for the environment. It is a challenging and comprehensive agenda.

The poor performance is due to a combination of factors, including difficult economic conditions in a number of member states such as Germany, Italy and France; the decline in the dot com sector which coincided with the launch of the Lisbon Agenda; the agenda's over-burdened series of disparate objectives and a lack of political engagement in some instances, although not in Ireland's case. We have been strong and staunch supporters of the agenda.

The outcome has been that Europe's growth rates and productivity levels have lagged seriously behind competitors such as the United States. The Lisbon Agenda targets are not being met. The agreed target for average EU employment of 70% stands at only 62.9%, although happily the Irish employment rate is much higher. As the Chairman stated, Ireland has experienced its highest growth rate in employment in years with the level now standing at 66.8%. The target for female employment was 60%; the rate now stands at approximately 56%. By comparison, the Irish rate is 57.5%. The target for overall investment in research and development is 3% of GDP with two thirds coming from the private sector. The rate stands at only around 2%. There are significant slippages in the targets set.

The challenges faced at the mid-term point are considered extremely urgent in the context of global competition and the aging population, given demographics in Europe. In its new start, agreed in March, the Lisbon Agenda aims to address these challenges through a more focused approach. The relaunch sets the scene. The vital strands are the urgent priorities of growth and jobs. The work programme was agreed during Ireland's Presidency in 2004 and reflects the need to boost our growth rates and create more jobs in Europe if we want to improve the quality of life of our European citizens. The other pillars of the agenda, social cohesion and sustainable development, remain important. Making growth and jobs an immediate target goes hand in hand with promoting the social and environmental objectives.

The European Commission is fully committed to sustainable development and modernising Europe's social models, in respect of which it has published complementary papers. This commitment is reflected by the fact that the European Council will adopt a declaration on sustainable development at its meeting later this week. Work on the social agenda is also progressing. Without more growth and jobs the European Union cannot fulfil its wider social and environmental objectives.

The integrated guidelines document is a framework document which brings together two sets of existing guidelines, one of which can be subdivided into the broad economic policy guidelines and the employment guidelines, both of which are treaty based. In addition, the package will give a new process to micro-economic structural reforms policy. The document provides a framework for action in the coming years.

Within the guidelines, member states will have flexibility to focus on policies and priorities relevant to their own particular needs. This is important because in a Community of 25, member states are at different stages in their development in relation to growth and employment, will have different demographics and administrative systems and will be focusing on different challenges. There are no new country-specific recommendations in the guidelines. The existing recommendations remain valid as a reference point and are due to be reviewed in 2006.

I will now deal with the broad economic policy guidelines. This part focuses on giving guidance on macro-economic policies that will contribute to jobs and growth. There are six guidelines which deal with issues as important as raising employment and growth potential, safeguarding our long-term economic sustainability and generally improving the overall adaptability and capacity of the economy in order that the macro-economic framework for action——

I apologise for the interruption but interference from a mobile phone is preventing the Oireachtas broadcasting unit from broadcasting the proceedings. I ask our guests and members to ensure their mobile phones are switched off. The joint committee is hearing a serious presentation. I would like these proceedings to be considered suitable for inclusion this evening in "Oireachtas Report".

Ms Butler

I did not bring my mobile phone with me.

The broad economic policy guidelines are an important macro-economic contribution to the process in reaching the aims of the Lisbon Agenda. The main Department involved is the Department of Finance. My colleague, Mr. Joe Kirwan, is available to answer any questions members may have.

The micro-economic guidelines relate to the objective of making Europe a more attractive place in which to invest. There are ten guidelines, all of which members may be familiar with, including increased investment in research and development; measures to stimulate competitiveness inside and outside Europe — for example, better regulation; extending and deepening the Internal Market, particularly in the area of services; the speedy transposition of directives and encouraging innovation and uptake of ICTs. The lead Department is the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. My colleague, Ms Lorraine Benson, will be happy to answer any questions that arise.

The third element is the employment guidelines which set out the overall employment objectives and priorities. They should interlink closely with growth and employment oriented macro-economic policies. The eight guidelines cover measures mainly identified in the Kok task force report last year. These relate to attracting more people into the workforce, including women, older people, members of disadvantaged groups and migrant workers, in order to make it more diverse, promoting a flexible, adaptable and life cycle approach to work and expanding and improving investment in human capital such as training, education and lifelong learning in the interests of equipping and reskilling people for the workforce. The lead Department is the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. Mr. Pádraic Cullinane will be able to discuss any issues that arise.

As regards how the guidelines will take effect, the European Commission communication has been discussed in detail at various Councils, including ECOFIN and the Employment and Competitiveness Councils, and the working groups which support them. The European Council will approve the document at its meeting at the end of this week and it will then be formally adopted. The guidelines will apply for the period 2005 to 2008, the first three year governance cycle, and will have to be translated by member states into national reform programmes.

Ireland, in common with other member states, must prepare a national reform programme in accordance with the timetable brought forward by the European Commission. This means it must be submitted to Brussels by mid-October. We have commenced consultation with Departments on preparation of the programme and will be meeting the Commission for bilateral discussions and advice in the near future.

In keeping with the agreement reached at the March European Council, consultations on the programme will be held with all the stakeholders, including, in particular, the Oireachtas and the social partners. Preparation of the programme is being co-ordinated by the Department of the Taoiseach. However, the key elements will be dealt with by the Departments of Finance and Enterprise, Trade and Employment which, traditionally, have looked after the BEPGs and the employment guidelines. Other Departments will contribute during the programme such as the Department of Social and Family Affairs in relation to social cohesion; the Department of Education and Science in relation to education, training and lifelong learning; the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform in relation to issues associated with equality and child care, and the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources in relation to ICTs.

The document is a framework to support the relaunch of the Lisbon Agenda. The importance of the agenda for growth and jobs makes the national reform programme an ambitious and challenging exercise, on which we will focus in the next couple of months. Once the programme has been prepared, the implementation of our commitments will be crucial. This will be monitored regularly and reported on to the European Commission each year. We will also keep in touch with other member states and support mutual learning and exchanges of good practice. If they do things from which we can learn, we will be assisted. It will also be possible to help them to learn from what we do.

Will the resistance shown by France, Germany and Holland to the free movement of workers and capital between EU countries mean it will be difficult for the guidelines to succeed? We all know that 54% of Irish exports are destined for countries outside the euro zone. Will the recent reduction in the value of the euro against the dollar benefit Irish employment and economic growth rates? Everyone in public life and throughout the country is talking about the period mid-2006 to 2007 when the SSIAs will mature and approximately 10% of GDP will be released into the economy. What will be the likely effect on economic growth and employment?

As I said in my introductory remarks, 72,400 jobs were created in the Republic in the past 12 months, bringing the figure to 1.908 million for the year ending February this year. How dependent are we on migrant workers to meet future projected employment growth? I would also like to hear the delegation's opinion on the retirement age and the possibility of it being extended. We all know that two thirds of our economic growth in the past ten years has been as a result of increased employment. What will happen if the annual employment growth rate is 1.8% for the period 2008 to 2016, as projected by the Central Statistics Office?

Ms Butler

Those are varied questions. I will answer the first question about the movement of workers and capital and some of my colleagues will answer the others.

The Chairman mentioned France, Germany and Holland. That is a major concern. The difficulty in achieving the objectives lies in the fact that member states are now in the driving seat and the European Commission and central European systems cannot do much. We are at the mercy of member states. That is why the national reform programmes are important. Member states are being required to specify the commitments they will make in areas such as the free movement of workers, services and the other issues outlined. This difficulty must be addressed by member states and the European authorities during the preparation of action programmes. We will be doing something similar in the challenges we face. The bilateral meetings of the Commission are the first stage in setting out the aspects of the programme that should be addressed by member states.

Mr. Joe Kirwan

As regards the euro-dollar issue, the experience has been that the effects tend to be more significant over a long-term rather than a short-term period. In the relatively short term the effects do not tend to be significant in one direction or the other. It is instructive to talk a little about what happened when the euro was weak against the dollar during 2000 and 2001. During that time we had strong growth in wages. However, the competitiveness of the economy was cushioned by the weakness of the euro against the dollar. This trend worked in our favour at the time.

As regards the relative appreciation of the euro against the dollar, one of the most important implications for us concerns wage and general cost competitiveness. This is an important consideration in the context of the forthcoming partnership discussions. As regards the broad economic policy guidelines, the economy is and has been well placed in recent years. It is in a strong position compared to most other member states. However, we should not understate the importance of competitiveness. In that regard, the relative value of the euro is an important consideration.

Given Mr. Kirwan's experience in the Department, does he agree that the biggest challenge is presented by wage costs?

Mr. Kirwan

It is one of the important challenges. Wages and other cost developments such as prices form part of the cost picture. However, wage costs are not necessarily the most important aspect.

Is Mr. Kirwan happy the economy is healthy?

Mr. Kirwan

The economy has been performing well by any comparators such as employment growth, inflation, GDP and GNP. Ireland is top of the class. That is not to say, however, there are grounds for complacency. Certainly, the Department of Finance would be the last to be complacent.

Mr. Kirwan can rest assured.

Ms Butler

The issues of migrant workers and the extension of the retirement age were raised. I will ask my colleague, Mr. Cullinane, to deal with them.

Mr. Pádraic Cullinane

As the Chairman said, the employment figures are very positive. The number at work is at its highest ever level while at 4.1% the unemployment rate is the lowest in the European Union. The long-term unemployment rate is 1.4%. More than 72,000 jobs were created last year. The labour market is extremely tight and the challenge is to ensure workers are available to take up jobs as they arise.

It is envisaged that workers will come from a number of sources. While the number of women at work has increased in the past ten years, there is more scope for greater female participation in the labour market. The EU target for female participation in the workforce is 60%. Ireland has a participation rate of 57.5%. We are also looking at keeping older people at work for a longer period and examining migration. We will be dependent on migrant workers to a certain extent in the future. Our policy is to try to source such workers from the 25 member states of the European Union and be more strict about allowing entry to low skilled workers from countries outside the Union. We will try to attract those with high skills from all over the world. As members will be aware, a works permit Bill that will place matters on a statutory footing will be brought forward shortly.

There are no new proposals on the retirement age. The demographic position in Ireland is not as acute as in other member states. The labour force will continue to grow up to 2035. As members know, the retirement age for new entrants to the Civil Service has been raised from 65 years but it will be a matter for private industry employers to decide on what is appropriate for them.

What does the Department recommend as the ideal retirement age?

Mr. Cullinane

We have no recommendations. The issue of the retirement age will be tied up with pensions rather than labour market policy.

Civil Servants from the Departments of the Taoiseach, Finance and Enterprise, Trade and Employment have come before the joint committee this morning. They have the facts, figures and proven track record. This is very important. I ask them to address this problem and inform the committee of their recommendations. The committee is anxious to have them on the employment of people who have vast experience but because they have reached the age of 65 years must stand down. It defies logic that people with professional expertise who are in good health — perhaps they should have an annual medical examination — are not available once they reach the age threshold. This committee is the conduit from Government to the professionals. I would like to hear the views of the civil servants before us as they are the leaders in the field and the senior people assisting the Government. The committee would like to be a party to the consultation process on these issues.

Costs are relative to a number of factors as well as wages. The next wage round will be vital. I ask Mr. Cullinane to take this on board.

Mr. Cullinane

Changes have been made in the public service as new entrants no longer have to retire at 65 years.

Does that apply to the 18 year old starting off in the Civil Service?

Mr. Cullinane

It applies to any new entrant.

Can those 50 years plus have their tenure extended? Will all the experience of those appearing before the joint committee be lost to the country in a few years time?

Mr. Cullinane

I do not think there is anything stopping employers from keeping people on after they reach the age of 65 years, if they so wish. This is an issue for employers and it is an area in which the Department does not normally regulate. The OECD is conducting a study of older workers in Ireland and will have interesting recommendations. We will come back to this issue.

When Mr. Cullinane and his colleagues reach 65 years, can the Department extend their position beyond that age?

Mr. Cullinane

No, not us.

That is my point. Why should the State lose the senior civil servants who are playing a part in the Celtic Tiger Part 2? The country will lose the services of good people. The private sector will always be able to flourish and move ahead. From my experience, a winning team in the public service will lose members who reach retirement age. I accept that the civil servants will not be able to respond but perhaps I may be able to make the point for them.

Ms Butler

We have taken note of the points made by the Chairman with a view to examining and corresponding with him on them.

That would be worthwhile.

Ms Butler

The Chairman raised a question on the release of SSIA money into the economy in the next year which I will ask my colleague, Mr. John Callinan, to address.

Mr. John Callinan

The introduction of a large amount of additional liquidity would be a significant factor in the economy. It is worth looking at the issue in a broader context. The introduction of the SSIA has, among other matters, served to instill a greater saving habit among the population. That is a welcome development in its own right, particularly when one thinks about pensions. A number of interesting ideas are being explored on how to continue the habit and what might be done in this regard which would, in turn, mitigate the effect of the reintroduction of a very large amouint of cash into the economy.

Might we expect to see some of these initiatives being considered for the budget?

Mr. Callinan

I should defer to my colleagues from the Department of Finance on that point.

Are they being considered?

Mr. Kirwan

They are. The situation on SSIAs is being considered in terms of the overall likely impact next year. Potentially, it is very significant.

The SSIA has been a godsend and given young people a very good habit of putting a little by for the rainy day. People appreciate the opportunity to save. I would like to see a new initiative introduced in the budget to build on the good work started in previous budgets by former Ministers for Finance.

The growth rate in the euro area is 2.2% whereas in China it is 9%. In Ireland the growth rate will be 5% this year on average. With the SSIAs it will rise to 7% in 2006 and 2007. This proves that a country coming from a high base can still grow at a considerable rate. Applying the 72 rule to China, within 16 years, by 2021, the Chinese economy will have trebled in size.

Turning to the guidelines on economic policies that will contribute to growth in jobs, it seems the Lisbon Agenda is skirting around the issue. Many European countries have not adopted the flexible approach that will allow people's natural innovation and entrepreneurship to flourish. It is difficult to start a business in Italy, France and Germany because of the regulations. Perhaps we should bring to the table the necessity for these countries to look at the tax regime, red tape and other issues preventing growth. Growth will come as a natural consequence of people's innovation which is being stifled by government. While I am in favour of the social model, one does not have to throw out the baby with the bath water.

I welcome the distinguished civil servants. I also welcome the change which provides civil servants with an opportunity to discuss various issues with Members of the Oireachtas. It is a good innovation.

Who will fund this operation? Is Ireland receiving additional funds from the European Union to implement these policies? Are there moves afoot regarding tax harmonisation, in respect of which Ireland has the advantage? Are other European countries looking to move towards a position which would result in Ireland losing the incentives which have helped to create growth?

Objective 1 status and the fact that Ireland is not attracting investment to the regions to which it is entitled have not been referred to. I am aware of the difficulties in attracting mobile industries and inward investment to the regions. Should it not form part of the delegation's policy to ensure additional investment in the Objective One region to implement Government policy?

I welcome the delegation. On the Lisbon Agenda, it appears Ireland will meet most of the targets without too much problem. What aspects will cause a problem? Is there sufficient research and development as compared with other countries?

The high cost of living in Ireland was referred to. Ireland appears to be highly dependent on the building industry and there is no guarantee the success achieved will continue into the future. I hope it does but one can only build so much.

College graduates are encountering problems in seeking employment due to a lack of experience. Most manufacturers or businesses want to employ people with at least six months working experience. Many graduates do not have this experience and often have to work abroad before returning to Ireland. That is crazy.

What aspects of the social welfare system may be stifling employment? For instance, it is often the case that a person will lose his or her social welfare entitlements on taking up employment. Have issues such as employment versus social welfare payments been researched?

Ms Butler

A number of points have been raised, some of which I will respond to while my colleagues pick up on the others.

The issue of growth rates and the need for innovation and better regulation was raised. The Chinese economy and the Lisbon Agenda were also referred to. There are in place parallel strategies for trading with Asia which take account of the enormous growth of the Chinese and other Asian economies. That is a separate issue with which we are dealing bilaterally.

I am aware the joint committee produced a useful paper on innovation and better regulation which is being studied by the Department and the Taoiseach. The Department has a co-ordinating role in advocating improvements in the regulatory framework as part of the public service modernisation programme. We are pursuing policies on better regulation dealt with in the White Paper on better regulation as well as a commitment to introduce a regulatory impact assessment. The Department has a strong record at European level in relation to our programme which will help to ensure the European Commission reduces and simplifies its own regulatory framework. I agree there is a need for good regulation, to reduce red tape and support innovation. That is the key to the advancing the Lisbon Agenda.

The question was asked as to who would fund the Lisbon Agenda. Funding comes from a variety of sources such as the national Exchequer and European sources. In the area of research and development the framework programmes and other sources fund Lisbon Agenda related activities. Negotiations are ongoing on the EU budget post-2006 in which provision is made for funding competitiveness programmes. Unfortunately, the provision under that heading has been cut more than we would have liked because of other new initiatives. There will be additional funding for research and development and associated initiatives. However, much of it will come from the national Exchequer. The funding has been used to pay for education, training and development and support programmes for industry and so on.

Objective One status was also mentioned. It forms part of the negotiations.

Cohesion funding which will be included in the next round of financial perspectives. It is an important issue. Obviously, as we have progressed from being one of the poorer countries, we have had to accept that we will be funding the European Union rather than gaining from it. One of our main concerns is what will happen to the regions in transition. It is hoped the financial perspectives will be progressed in Brussels in the next few days when we will be seeking to secure the best deal we can get for the Objective 1 region.

Deputy Callanan asked about the problem areas in respect of the Lisbon Agenda, an issue on which we have worked strongly. He also mentioned research and development. One of the problems lies in trying to increase investment in research and development and trying to encourage the private sector to increase its investment. My colleague, Ms Lorraine Benson, may wish to comment on the matter.

Deputy Callanan also asked if traps in the social welfare system discouraged people from taking up work. This is an important issue. Making work pay is one of the issues being examined on the employment and social policy side so as to ensure the policies in place do not discriminate against those who want to take up employment as distinct from being in a position in which they might do better receiving a combination of social welfare payments.

Ms Lorraine Benson

The Department and the Minister have a particular focus on research and development. We have put together an action plan to reach a figure of 2.5% of GDP by 2010. The figure currently stands at 1.4%.

As Ms Butler stated, the Lisbon Agenda was to focus on jobs and growth. The original proposal was to steer funding under the new financial perspectives in favour of competitiveness, growth and productivity with a heavy focus on research and development and innovation. We await the outcome of the negotiations. We are in limbo until we know what the final package will be.

Ms Butler

A question was asked about the construction industry. Perhaps it will keep going when the SSIA money is released and people extend or rebuild their homes. My colleague, Mr. Callinan, may wish to comment further on the issue.

Mr. Callinan

It is worth pointing out that the construction industry envisages that demand for housing will continue for the foreseeable future. I am sure members are well aware that the position on the country's infrastructural needs is far from satisfactory. It is likely there will be substantial activity in the construction sector for some time to come.

It is important to highlight the link between education and sustained economic growth. I have been a vocational teacher and vocational school principal. I would like to outline a scenario from a social rather than an economic point of view. As a result of the difficulties being experienced, I commenced a pre-nursing course in my vocational school in a link-up with Thames Valley University. One of the students who had failed to secure a place in the nursing profession in Ireland nursed Mrs. Cherie Blair through her last pregnancy and came third in Great Britain. The position has not changed dramatically since. We now recruit nurses, mainly from the Philippines, because the education system has failed to respond to the fact that we have an aging population for whom additional nurses are required.

My county of Wexford is home to some of the biggest building companies in the country. About 24% of tradesmen come from outside the Twenty-six Counties. The education system has also failed miserably to recognise the growth in the building industry. On one building site in Rosslare 14 bricklayers are non-nationals. I have no difficulty with this; I am just stating the education system has not responded.

Enterprise education courses are virtually non-existent and provided almost by accident during gap years. The second level system is capable of being linked to enterprise centres. I was involved in an experiment in Enniscorthy vocational school where a number of business people came together and I chaired a committee. We have an enterprise centre on the campus where kids can train to become hairdressers.

If one wants to become a carpenter, one envisages oneself working for somebody else rather than starting one's own business. The father of a youngster who got six honours in the leaving certificate telephoned me to say he did not want his son to become a carpenter. He immediately thought that if one got that many honours, one should be an engineer. I told him most carpenters employed engineers when they eventually started their own building firms. I do not know what role the officials see this can play in the work in which they are involved but that is the kind of circumstance I have come across as a teacher.

Iona Technology in Beijing has about 30 workers, 12 of whom are engaged in research and development. Ireland has nothing like that expenditure on research and development. There will be some 180,000 Chinese computer science graduates this year. I do not know how many graduates we will have but it seems computer science is no longer a popular subject.

I have never been able to get the figure for the number who do not finish first year at university but it is somewhere between 33% and 40%, depending on whom one believes. Obviously, there are significant problems with career guidance and the points system. That is what we need to address if we want to sustain the growth rates achieved. If the education system responds to a changing entrepreneurial environment, we will succeed.

The Deputy has just returned from China.

I was there a few months ago with the Minister and the Taoiseach. What the Deputy said has greatly exercised my mind. I also visited Toronto and the United States with the Tánaiste last year and South Africa with the Minister of State, Deputy Ahern, the previous year. Science is certainly one subject about which we are very concerned. The way forward should be through encouragement to take the subject in the leaving certificate by offering an incentive or extra points for students. While the officials are the experts, certainly something needs to be done urgently.

Those of us who have visited China believe marketing and research and development will be the principal components of Irish companies operating successfully and sustaining jobs here. We do not want to see jobs in research and development going to other destinations. I share Deputy Dempsey's sentiments.

China has a population of 1.3 billion. One person in three of the world's population lives in China. To my knowledge, we do not have even one school which offers Chinese as a subject. Because of the link between Shanghai and Cork, University College Cork runs something akin to the baby Latin course offered during my time in university, basically a Mickey Mouse course that one took if one did not want to attend lectures. If we are providing such a course in Chinese, we are lucky. There is a market of 1.3 billion people which we have not even noticed.

Ms Butler

It is unfair to say we have not noticed it because we have entered the second phase of a strategy on Asia. For the past five years the emphasis on China has been increasing. We have plans to start an institute of Chinese studies which should help.

I was referring to the Chinese language. I realise the officials are aware of the size of the market and that the Taoiseach and the Chairman have visited China.

Ms Butler

The Minister for Education and Science has also visited it. Because of its scale it is hard to compare numbers involved in research and development but the point is well made.

On the broader education issue, we do not have anybody with us today from the Department of Education and Science but I mentioned that it would be heavily involved. The Deputy's point about the nature of education in achieving our competitiveness, growth and employment agenda is important. The specific recommendations mentioned by Mr. Cullinane relate to the need to do more in terms of lifelong learning, vocational training, institutional training, etc. This is a matter of which we are conscious and on which we will be working as part of the national reform programme.

Mr. Cullinane

I do not have much to add except that the Department of Education and Science will be heavily involved in the employment aspect of the national reform programme. I imagine that some of the issues raised by Deputy Dempsey and the Chairman will be covered.

On the apprenticeship issue, it is more to do with demand rather than supply. We have more people involved in apprenticeships than ever before and are trying to cope with the numbers coming through. Employers are taking on many Irish based apprentices but where there is a shortage of skills, as I stated, they must bring in people from abroad. There is a large number of apprenticeships of offer, particularly in the construction sector.

Deputy Dempsey mentioned the drop-out rate in universities. This poses a problem. If a person takes up a course and finds it is not the one for him or her, if he or she is in the poor bracket, he or she cannot be funded in first year again. The problem is people do not return to university because they cannot afford to do so.

That is a good point. If kids who find they took the wrong option want to change, they will lose their grant.

What are the implications of the ongoing OECD study for growth? Have the officials anything to relate to the committee in that regard?

Ms Butler

I am not familiar with the details.

Mr. Cullinane

I am not familiar with the details either but there is a specific study of older workers which the OECD is conducting with us. The study to which the Chairman refers may be broader.

It concerns income levels. I have a few related articles before me. Perhaps it is merely in its infancy stage and has not been placed on the desks of the officials yet.

Ms Butler

We will check the matter and come back to the Chairman.

I thank the delegation for assisting us. It has been a worthwhile exchange of views and I look forward to working with it for the remainder of the life of the Government. The joint committee looks forward to assisting the officials in any way possible on the topic before it this morning and learning from their advice. The annual reports of IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland will be placed before us for consideration in the next month or six weeks. No doubt Mr. Ryan will come before us again this year.

Ms Butler

On behalf of my colleagues, I thank the Chairman and members of the joint committee. It has been useful for us to have the opportunity to participate in this engagement and exchange of views. Members questions have prompted a number of points on which we will return to the committee. As I mentioned, there will be consultation with the Oireachtas in preparing the national reform programme in the coming months, on which we look forward to further engagement with the committee among others.

If we have ideas from time to time, I would like to think we could let the officials present, as heads of various Departments, know through the clerk to the joint committee what our thinking is and the difficulties being experiencing with our constituents. We have started a trawl and are visiting the provinces. We have already been to Athlone and Wexford. In Wexford the numbers involved in farming have reduced considerably in the past ten to 12 years while many in the workforce have moved into the construction industry. As the manufacturing base has narrowed, the people of Wexford fear what will occur if anything goes wrong in the construction sector. We will be in Cork next week and will then travel to Galway. We will then have a good idea of what is happening on the ground. We are also learning from local authorities and other organisations involved at the cutting edge.

The visit to Wexford was an eye opener. If anything were to go wrong in the construction industry, where would the county be? We must be concerned about this issue. I never thought I would see such growth and buoyancy in the economy. To be welcoming 72,000 new jobs is, in the words of Isla Grant, a dream come true. This is a good occasion to explore where we will go in the future.

Committee members may have visited the University of Waterloo, outside Toronto, where the technology for Blackberry mobile phones was developed. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment may have similar ideas in order that this nation may create a world class product. Employment will be created in this area in the future. We have to investigate how we can lead the people.

Irish people were given a fair chance when interest rates were reduced to attractive levels. Not only did we have Celtic tiger Part 1 we now have Celtic tiger Part 2. I would like to think the Government's policies were correct in allowing the private sector to provide for this growth in the economy. The professionals behind the Government's policymakers played a key part. That is why I am interested in learning from senior individuals of ability and with extensive experience. Napoleon asked for lucky generals instead of good ones. We should hold on to the ones we have. I thank the delegation for coming and Ms Butler for leading it.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.45 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 22 June 2005.

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