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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE AND SMALL BUSINESS debate -
Wednesday, 22 Jun 2005

National Consumer Policy: Presentations.

I welcome Ms Ann Fitzgerald, Mr. Ed Shinnick and Dr. Eoin Gahan from the Consumer Strategy Group and Mr. Ciaran Fitzgerald, director, and Ms Rosemary Garth from IBEC. They are here to discuss the recently published report, Make Consumers Count: A New Direction for Irish Consumers. Also present are Mr. Myles O'Reilly and Ms Linda Morris from O'Reilly Consultants. They are welcome.

Before asking witnesses to commence their presentation, I draw their attention to the fact that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not extend to them. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

We will now proceed to the presentation by Ms Fitzgerald of the Consumer Strategy Group which will, I hope, be confined to ten minutes. We will then hear the presentation of Mr. Fitzgerald on behalf of IBEC. Members of both Houses must be in attendance in their respective Chambers for the Order of Business. However, we do not want to rush this in any way. We need to have an in depth question and answer session. The Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment has requested proposals and this committee intends to make such proposals in respect of the report to which I refer. Today's debate will, we hope, assist us in the preparation of our submission.

With me are Dr. Eoin Gahan, chairman of the Forfás secretariat which helps the Consumer Strategy Group, and Mr. Ed Shinnick from UCC, who is on the group and who is now also on the interim board of the NCA.

I thank the Chairman and the members of the committee for inviting me here today. We are delighted to have the opportunity to share the outcome of the Consumer Strategy Group's work with the members of the committee. I propose, with the agreement of the committee, to read a statement on the work of the CSG and will be happy to take questions from the members of the committee.

Prices in Ireland have risen rapidly in recent years. In 1995, Ireland was the eighth most expensive country for consumer goods and services among the current eurozone members; by 2003, it was virtually the most expensive. In the latter year, Ireland ranked as the most expensive country in the eurozone in respect of food, retail, non-alcoholic beverages, tobacco and housing rentals and as the second most expensive in terms of alcoholic beverages, off-licence, restaurants and pubs. The consequence of this has been a widespread perception among Irish consumers that they are being continually overcharged and there have been further cries of "rip-off Ireland". In conjunction with this has been an understandable growing public concern that consumers are not getting a fair deal.

During the past decade it has become apparent that consumer power is weak in Ireland compared with other highly-developed countries. In many areas of commercial and public decision-making, the consumer has no voice. Similarly in many areas of daily life, consumers feel powerless. Internationally, however, it is widely accepted that informed and empowered consumers are a powerful social and economic force. They can improve the overall standard of living in a country and drive innovation in the enterprise sector. Confident, well informed consumers are not only more willing to spend their money, they are also more likely to favour progressive suppliers that offer more choice, better quality, superior service and innovative products and services at fair prices. These are also the businesses that are most likely to succeed on export markets.

The catalyst for setting up the group was a combination of the issues I have outlined, namely, widespread concerns being expressed in respect of the effectiveness of current consumer policy in Ireland; the increasing international focus on the empowerment of consumers; and the strongly held belief of consumers and various media and economic commentators that Irish consumers were not getting a fair deal. The Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment set up the Consumer Strategy Group in March 2004 and described the move as "a significant initiative designed to improve and promote consumer rights in Ireland".

The CSG was asked to advise and make recommendations in respect of developing a national consumer strategy to provide consumers with knowledge, information and confidence to be demanding of quality, service and value; ensuring that consumers are well informed of their rights and have effective means of redress; giving consumers a powerful voice at national and local level; ensuring that the views of consumers are heard and taken into account; and promoting best practice among product and service providers.

In approaching its work, and its very broad remit, the CSG kept to the fore the following key questions. Where is the consumer voice? What is its impact and how can it be empowered and strengthened?

There has been increased focus internationally on consumer empowerment. This is as a result of the acknowledgement that the effective implementation of a good consumer strategy will lead to more competitive markets, lower prices and better quality products and services for consumers. This is good for business and promotes innovation, responsiveness and competitiveness. Ireland has been slow in acknowledging this and consequently is lagging behind its international counterparts in this regard. Another important component of a good consumer strategy is consumer protection and redress in the event of a complaint or dissatisfaction. Without good consumer protection systems consumers will suffer losses, particularly those who lack the skills to make good buying decisions or those on low incomes who can least afford to make wrong decisions. Good consumer protection systems increase the likelihood of the right decisions being made and help to increase living standards overall. Successful and confident consumers feel more in control of their own lives and better able to articulate their service and quality needs.

CSG research revealed that there is a passive consumer culture in Ireland and that this costs money, estimated at an annual cost of €810 million, or £8.7 billion sterling. This research represents the largest body of such research ever carried out into consumer policy in Ireland. In carrying out its work, the Consumer Strategy Group focused on a number of different activities. In that context, submissions were sought from the general public and trade bodies, public and state sector bodies and Government Departments and regulators. In addition, a consumer attitudes survey was carried out to ascertain consumer perceptions and attitudes, international best practice and experience in consumer policy and institutions were examined and a number of key sectors were also researched from a consumer perspective.

The CSG research into consumer attitudes revealed that, in terms of prices and value for money, 87% of consumers feel they are frequently overcharged and 65% believe the price they pay is different from what they expected. Consumers feel overwhelmingly that they do not get value for money, price, quality, etc. Consumers find the area of consumer rights both complex and confusing. Nine out of ten people feel they need to be better educated about their rights. Awareness of consumer organisations in Ireland is very low. In terms of complaints and redress, 67% believe the complaints process is lengthy and expensive, while 83% believe they should complain more but do not know where to go.

The CSG examined a number of other countries to ascertain best practice in the area of consumer policy. The group examined Denmark, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland. It emerged that consumers in these countries behave and are supported differently from those in Ireland. These countries spend less on protection and enforcement and more on championing the consumer's cause. The key principle underlying consumer policies in these countries is that empowered consumers can make better choices and hence drive the marketplace. Information and awareness are priorities and the state plays an important role in providing services for consumers. Businesses in these countries play a greater role in consumer affairs and benefit from the improved relationship. The business sector recognises the importance of good consumer policy, works closely with consumer institutions and operates sectoral codes of practice and dispute resolution procedures.

The CSG research revealed a serious lack of consumer voice, a lack of focus on consumer issues — on the part of both the State and businesses — significant gaps in consumer policy in Ireland and an emphasis on enforcement. It also highlighted that there is little emphasis on education, awareness, advocacy and empowerment of consumers.

The CSG also developed a number of key principles which it considered underpinned a good consumer policy. These include access — market information, choice, price and quality; safeguards — health and safety issues to include health regulations, terms and conditions relating to specific aspects of transactions; advice and support — information; redress — informal, legal and alternative dispute resolution; and consumer voice — a strengthened consumer voice which would make a research input into various sector or policies that impact on it.

There are a number of functions needed to support these principles. The first of these is advocacy. A strong and consistent voice for Irish consumers is needed at many levels in public debate in the State system and by way of influencing legislation. Intervention at policy level, or as necessary in the media, is particularly important to support the need of disadvantaged consumers. Support is also needed for organisations that provide advice and information to consumers. The promotion of codes of conduct and redress procedures is another part of the advocacy function.

The second function revolves around information and advice. To make the right choices, and even to know what is available, consumers need information targeted to their specific needs in terms that are readily understood. There are a number of sources of such information, including the media, advertising, consumer groups and voluntary organisations. However, there is still a deficit. More targeted information is needed to focus on both consumer rights and protection and price and quality.

The third function relates to enforcement. There are many laws and regulations in place to protect consumers. These range from requirements relating to the quality and safety of products such a food, toys and electrical equipment to regulations on the display of prices. The CSG considered that the existing enforcement functions of ODCA can be built on and has recommended the introduction of a system of on-the-spot fines and powers to close down rogue traders. The group also considers that much more can be done to inform consumers of the legislation that is designed to protect and to empower them to become active participants in the enforcement of some of that legislation.

The fifth function involves education and awareness. Developing consumer thinking is an essential step in fostering a consumer culture, where consumer rights and obligations matter and are well understood by business and consumers. The education and awareness function covers important areas of activity such as the encouragement of basic consumer education in schools, teaching and researching on consumer issues in third level institutions and the development of more general consumer consciousness through awareness campaigns. Interpreting and publicising consumer-related issues that arise from legislative and regulatory changes at national and EU level is also an important aspect of this function.

The final function relates to research. Underpinning all the other functions, well founded and well integrated research is an essential activity and this needs to cover areas such as monitoring levels of consumer awareness and satisfaction and maintaining a continuous overview of the concerns of consumers as a guide to identifying policy priorities; analysing the consumer implications of proposed regulatory and legislative change; preparing inputs into national policy formation in key sectors and areas that are related to consumer interests; and analysing key markets to identify areas of particular consumer concern. In summary, a researched and well-founded consumer voice can make a very valuable contribution to society and to our economic welfare.

The current approach to consumer issues in Ireland places a heavy emphasis on consumer protection, with a top-down approach from Government. Unlike other countries, there is little involvement from business in dispute resolution. There is a distinct absence of planned, regular programmes of consumer information, of research into the needs of consumers and of advocacy on their behalf. There are, however, exceptions to this, including the areas of financial services and food safety.

The current system in Ireland does not reflect the fact that consumer issues and problems do not readily fall into neat boxes. They range across most sectors of business and Departments. They cannot be compartmentalised. The group's main recommendation is the establishment of a new independent statutory national consumer agency, subsuming ODCA. The national consumer agency will raise the profile of consumer issues and present a strong consumer voice. The agency will give Ireland a comprehensive and forceful consumer policy. This body will champion the cause of the consumer and, for the first time, consumer interests will be brought to the forefront of national and local decision-making.

In light of the broad remit of the proposed agency — it will be free to comment on, criticise and suggest improvements to all aspects of the economy, including those relating to the Government and local authorities — it is imperative that it be distanced from a Department, although funded by the Exchequer.

The CSG also feels it is important that the agency have a board, with the freedom to recruit its own staff and chief executive. The agency will also develop a partnership approach with Government, regulators, business, consumer organisations and unions in promoting and safeguarding the interests of consumers. It is important that it be, and be seen to be, constructive while keeping the interests of consumers to the forefront at all times.

I mentioned that the CSG had also carried out a number of sectoral studies. These included an examination of developments in the retail sector including in the areas of groceries, because these represent a basic component of consumer expenditure; pharmaceuticals, because of known price disparities between Ireland and other countries; and transport and planning, because of their influence on consumer access to goods and services.

I am aware the committee has a particular interest in the groceries order. For that reason, I will focus on the order in this presentation. I am, of course, happy to respond to questions on this and on the other studies carried out by the group. Given the remit of the CSG to address the issue of high prices, it was only natural that we would look at the groceries order in the context of our examination of various sectors from a consumer perspective. It is interesting that we did not mention the groceries order specifically in the advertisement we placed in the newspapers seeking submissions and input into the work of the CSG. Nor had we engaged consultants to examine the retail trade at that stage. However, all except one of the submissions we received from the retail trade and the representatives of producers focused, to a considerable degree, on the order and argued for its retention. All referred to it as a ban on below cost selling.

The groceries order has been in existence since 1987 — almost 20 years. In that period, the Ireland we live in has changed enormously. It is now a wealthy nation, in a way that we would not have envisaged even ten years ago. However, we also have some very poor people among us. While those of us who have some money can tolerate high prices, higher than necessary prices in the groceries area impact heavily on the less fortunate who spend much more of their income on food and household necessities.

As individual consumers, we are also time poor. Long commutes, longer working hours, the stresses of a fast moving society are all factors that have changed the way we shop. The retail environment has also changed considerably. The number of genuinely independent grocery shops has continued to decline by 40% over a 25-year period, which predates the introduction of the order. The trade has become more concentrated, both at retail and distributor level. We have a vibrant retail grocery sector in terms of the number and types of outlets and our economic structures are such that they will continue to be vibrant. The growth in the convenience grocery sector is testament to our busy lifestyles. Some competition has come into the market since the advent of Aldi and Lidl but there is potential for far more.

On a broader front, we are in danger of becoming less competitive across many sectors of the economy. This is a factor which, if unchecked, will threaten our new found wealth. The Ireland we live in today is in sharp contrast to that of 1987, when the groceries order was introduced. Ireland was then a poor country. Small retailers and producers felt under pressure from the multiples of the time. H. Williams had gone bust, probably for a variety of reasons, but the price war which preceded this was an important factor in the creation of a perception that below cost selling was to blame. There were fears of enhanced competition from the UK. The result, as members are aware, was a ban commonly known as the ban on below cost selling.

When the CSG members began to research and discuss the groceries order, we all presumed it was genuinely a ban on below cost selling. To us, as reasonable people, that meant a ban on selling a good below the real, actual price which a retailer had paid for it. To say that we were astounded when we learned of the existence of off-invoice discounts is an understatement. I am being candid with the committee when I say that we could not — and still cannot — understand how this law remains in existence. It is inconceivable to us that the law can forbid a retailer from passing on directly to consumers discounts which he or she received but which are not reflected on an invoice.

In examining the retail trade, including the groceries order, we were conscious of a number of factors including high prices in Ireland and, equally, the high cost of doing business in Ireland. In respect of prices, we purchased research from AC Neilson and compared 40 branded products — 20 internationally branded and 20 locally branded — across the eurozone. We discovered that, allowing for all taxes, the internationally branded products were almost 23% more expensive in Ireland than in the other eurozone countries. We found that the locally branded products were 3% higher after taxes. We found these very major differences difficult to believe. In an effort to understand them better, and conscious of our high cost environment, we also examined ten input costs across the eurozone.

While Ireland is an expensive place to do business, we found that it is not the highest across the eurozone in terms of all input costs. We also took into account the fact that we have the lowest rate of corporation tax in the eurozone. We could only conclude that there is an unexplained gap in respect of Irish prices. We believe that the groceries order is contributing to some of these high price levels. In summary, we believe that Irish consumers are not getting a fair deal.

Everyone is aware that the practice of off-invoice discounting is rife throughout the grocery trade. This, in our view, has the effect of placing upward pressure on grocery prices. That possibility was recognised when the order was made and in the many reviews of the order which have taken place. The Restrictive Practices Commission, under the chairmanship of Mr. Myles O'Reilly, issued its Report of Review of Restrictive Practices (Groceries) Order 1981, which led to the introduction of the 1987 groceries order. In the review, Mr. O'Reilly stated:

In general, while the invoice conforms to the price list it does not show all of the additional rebates. If this practice were to continue, a prohibition on selling below net invoice price would, as the 1980 Report feared would happen, be allowing the manufacturer to fix a price below which his products could not be sold but which was not the true cost. This would be a form of resale price maintenance.

The then Minister for Industry and Commerce, in speaking to the legislation establishing the order in 1987, expressed the view that the multiples would ensure all discounts, rebates, etc., would be reflected on the invoice so that they could have a competitive edge over other retailers. That never happened.

The 1991 review of the Fair Trade Commission report on the 1987 groceries order, under the chairmanship of Mr. Patrick Lyons, concluded, with a minority view from Mr. O'Reilly, that the order should be abolished. Mr. Lyons and Mr. Massey, the third member of the commission, considered that, "there is persuasive evidence that the ban on below cost selling has resulted in higher prices, a decrease in price competition and an increase in margins." The two members also considered that "off-invoice discounts appear to be quite significant in some cases, and to have increased in magnitude since the introduction of the ban". The net invoice price now prescribes the minimum resale price. They regarded "this practice, which amounts to resale once maintenance and which could grow in extent, as being a serious abuse of the legislation".

The minority view, expressed by Mr. O'Reilly, was that "the present definition of cost i.e net invoice price, cannot be permitted to continue". While he believed that little damage had so far been suffered by consumers or by trade participants as a result of the present definition, he asserted, nevertheless, that the definition might lead to abuse by some sectors of the trade in the future. Mr. O'Reilly recommended that the order be retained but that the definition of cost be changed to include all discounts and rebates. As we are aware, however, the order has remained unchanged despite subsequent reviews which recommended its abolition. We are also aware that this committee has recently recommended retention of the order.

The group's analysis of the groceries order found that it has the effect of placing upward pressure on grocery prices and thereby adversely affects consumers. The group believes that free competition in markets is the most effective way to protect consumers. Markets should function in the interests of both consumers and producers and should not be solely concerned with protecting producers or retailers, as has been the case in Ireland. The importance of striking a balance between consumers and industry is crucial for the long-term prosperity of this sector. The CSG does not believe that the groceries order strikes such a balance.

The report of the CSG was launched on 18 May 2005. At the launch, the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, announced his intention to establish a new consumer agency. The Minister also announced that a board of the new national consumer agency would be established immediately on an interim basis until such time as the necessary legislation could be enacted to establish it on a statutory footing. The interim board is now established and the first meeting of the interim board will take place shortly. It is envisaged that the interim board will carry out further consumer research and act as an advocate for consumers in the interim.

An issue requiring immediate attention by the board is the submission to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment consultation process on the groceries order. The interim board of the national consumer agency will be building on the work of the CSG and will make a submission to the Minister for Enterprise Trade and Employment on the groceries order. In doing so, the interim board will have one overriding objective, namely, to ensure a fair deal for consumers.

I thank Ms Ann Fitzgerald for her presentation. The one matter she did not mention in her submission is wages. Can she produce a comparison for the committee relating to wages in countries such as the UK, Portugal and Spain? The case has been made that there is a major difference between wage costs in these countries and those in Ireland. Does Ms Ann Fitzgerald have any examples for the committee?

Dr. Eoin Gahan will help me with the detail relating to this point. Wages were one of the inputs we examined in terms of running a business. We found that the total cost of employing somebody, which is different to wages, is not the highest across the eurozone.

Does that include the new minimum wage from 1 May 2005?

Dr. Eoin Gahan

We examined total wages costs, which means examining all the wages plus all the employer's contributions, namely, the total cost of hiring somebody. This was the comparative data that we had, which was used by the National Competitiveness Council.

How up to date is that wage analysis?

Dr. Gahan

That wage analysis is based on the latest National Competitiveness Council report from last year.

I call upon Mr. Ciaran Fitzgerald from IBEC to make his submission.

I might return to the wages issue because there is significant information that might throw some light on the subject. In terms of the business perspective on the report and the intent of the Consumer Strategy Group, we recognise that a strong consumer voice is needed for business to work efficiently. We have argued, in the context of problems that Ireland has experienced in terms of inflation, that a concerted effort in respect of reducing inflation and trying to restore competitiveness needs to be made. To that end, we suggested in the most recent national pay deal that an anti-inflation group be established. I served on that group, which still sits.

One item of important information that comes out of a detailed analysis of inflation and is echoed in the Consumer Strategy Group's report is that the greatest driver of inflation in the economy has been service inflation. If one considers the situation since December 2001, one will see that the cost of goods to consumers has increased by approximately 2%. However, the cost of services has increased by 18% or nine times that level. This is important in the context of the intent of this report, at the heart of which is a mission, shared by business, to find out where consumers are getting value and where they are not getting value.

If one looks at the pattern of the past five years, when inflation in services has been running at approximately eight or nine times inflation in goods, it is important to relate these figures back to food. Inflation figures for food are covered by two areas, namely, inflation at retail level and at services level, which includes cafés, restaurants and takeaways. Again, there is a sharp contrast between the two sets of figures. Inflation in food has been negative in the past year but it has been at approximately 1.5% at retail level in the four or five-year period. This means that the average supermarket basket of goods costs 1.5% more than it did just before we joined the euro. Food consumed outside the home has gone up by18%, which means that a meal out, or any form of food consumed at a services level, has increased in price by approximately nine times the level of food consumed at retail level. A jar of coffee purchased for €2 in 2001 now costs €1.90 because the price at retail level has fallen. A cup of coffee purchased for €2 in a café, takeaway or restaurant in December 2001 now costs €2.60. That is what has been driving inflation and it is on it that we should try to focus.

The thrust of the report identifies service inflation as a major source of lack of competitiveness and consumer concern but there is an absence of any remedial action in that area and a concentration on the grocery sector. There is a question of a disconnect in terms of looking at where the problem exists and identifying the solutions. This carries through in some of the analysis. If consumers have increased their spend by €6.5 billion in the past four years, spending €1 billion on goods and €5.5 billion on services, what are we doing for them by concentrating on goods? The price of goods is principally determined by two factors, namely, the international conditions under which we buy and sell and our business costs. The price of services is determined by a number of factors but much of that inflation has been driven by Government action in this area and the cost of charges.

The committee asked what we are trying to do in terms of consumer value, perceived or otherwise. We are in an area where inflation has been benign and prices have been falling but no remedial action has been prescribed and we have nothing to say about what is happening over here in this corner. There is a disconnect.

In the context of the broad thrust of delivering value to the consumer, the business proposition is that there has been a disconnect between the decisions we have made on business costs and what we would like to be paid and the fact that it translates into the price of goods. Proper, detailed analysis of why the price of goods in Ireland might be higher than the EU average shows that it is not inexplicable, nor is it explained by the groceries order. Rather, it is explained by differences in business costs. The Chairman made the point about European wage price levels. The minimum wage in Spain is some €3.50; it is at least twice that here. Spain has a ban on below cost selling. The difference between grocery prices in Ireland and Spain relates to the cost of doing business there. It is not explained by an item of legislation but by business costs. If we want to get our prices nearer to European levels, we must take action on costs and continue to make that connection.

The point has previously been made about the difference between food prices in the EU and those in Ireland. A couple of years ago, Dr. Fingleton said that if Irish consumers could buy their food at average EU prices, they would pay approximately €500 less on food in a year, which represents some 2% of average wages. If Irish consumers had average EU wages, they would have €7,000 less per year to spend on their food. This is the sort of joined-up thinking that is required. We cannot disconnect costs from prices, certainly not if we want to arrive at a solution. This is at the core of our concern.

It is very difficult to make price comparisons at any point in time because there are issues relating to goods on promotion, different pack sizes and varying VAT and excise duties. With regard to the comparison which was done, there is a €12 to €13 price difference between the cost of goods in the two baskets in Ireland versus the EU when one subtracts VAT. Some €8 of that comes from the price of one product, namely, a bottle of Bacardi, and the excise is not taken off that product in the price comparison. The real cost of goods difference is not as great in the first instance. Much recent analysis of the groceries order makes a case about prices being higher or makes another case in isolation but there is no connection.

Mr. Ciaran Fitzgerald's ten minutes are almost up.

Regarding the issue of net invoice pricing and discounts, those discounts relate to the cost of doing business in Ireland. What this analysis does not do — it might show where the discounts lie if it had — is consider whether the mark-up on goods with that discount is higher in a supermarket than it is with goods that do not have the discount. Our analysis since 1994 shows that the rate of inflation for goods not covered by the groceries order, that is, fruit, vegetables, meat and other products, has been 20% higher over the period than in goods covered by the order.

The notion as to whether the existence of net invoice pricing or a ban on below cost selling prevents someone from doing something they would otherwise do is not sustained. In the category of goods not covered by the groceries order, retailers have not deeply discounted or given products away and have actually priced them at a higher level than goods covered by the order. The reality of that pricing, and pricing in general, is that it is governed by business costs. If we want to arrive at a solution for consumers in this area in particular, we must look at business costs. If we also want to look at making a difference for consumers in general, we must look at the broad pattern of where consumers are paying higher costs. It is not in the grocery retail sector.

Has the Consumer Strategy Group found any evidence of below cost selling? It has been brought to my attention that one of our multiples is selling some units 20% below cost. This committee is extremely concerned that choice would be eliminated in three or four years' time if the grocery order was to be taken away, as was the case in the UK. That is my only question before I invite Deputies Howlin and Hogan and Senator Leyden to ask their questions.

Ireland is a wealthy country and convenience shops are everywhere, such as, for example, in garages. With multiples moving into the sector, we need such shops in Kerry because we are time poor. We are very busy people, we do not have time and we need these shops. The world has changed and we, as a group, do not believe that the grocery shop will disappear. It has a thriving future ahead of it. The groceries order, which we believe should be abolished, will not impact on that in any way.

The multiples are moving into convenience shopping in a major way and this is where the industry is growing. Filling stations operated by the multiples, in comparison to smaller, local stations, sell fuel well below cost. However, delegates are saying that this will not close all filling stations within ten miles. I am referring to a station in Kerry which was the leader in this regard. Our guests are also saying that all of the small family stores which sell newspapers and cigarettes on Sunday mornings and are available and open when people want service will survive. Is that what they are telling the committee?

When the groceries order was introduced, it was hoped that the small independent grocery shop would be preserved. The small independent grocery shop continues to decline but has been compensated for by massive growth on the part of Spar, Centra and SuperValu, which do a superb job in this sector of the economy, are very vibrant and will continue to play an important role due to our changed lifestyles.

I was not talking about these but rather about Tesco.

If one examines the turnovers of Tesco and Musgrave, for example, they are on a par. In the interests of consumers, we see a need for far more price competition in Ireland. The groceries order does something important for the Irish retail and producing sectors. For the producing sector, it sets a floor below which the retailer cannot sell a product. It is a form of resale price maintenance, which is illegal. Every business in the country would love to have this, namely, a law that preserves costs below which one cannot sell.

I welcome Ms Ann Fitzgerald, the report and the group's proposal for the adoption of a national consumer agency. The group will be aware that I have advocated such a role for an independent body — at arm's length from the State — that would give a right of redress to consumers if they feel excessively charged.

I am sure the Deputy received proper recognition in the report.

He is about to get it.

When a good idea is floated, it is appropriate to acknowledge that groups such as that before us take it on board. I am taken aback that one important area of the consumer issue, namely, groceries, has been focused on — notwithstanding that groceries consume 20% of household incomes — rather than there being concentration on other sectors of the economy deemed to be sheltered from competition. I would welcome the opportunity for Ms Ann Fitzgerald's group to scrutinise professions that have increased their prices by an average of 4% in the past 12 months, particularly regarding access to the professions and their contribution to the Celtic tiger economy.

The group purchased research on branded goods from AC Neilson. The average basket of goods appropriate to an Irish consumer is interesting, as it includes Bacardi rum, Evian water and an electric toothbrush. These products are not appropriate to the average spend of a consumer. Regardless of whether this owes to the researcher or the socio-economic bent of some people, I do not subscribe to the view that these three products occupy space in, for example, a routine Kilkenny basket of goods. Perhaps this is provincial but if we are discussing national policy and if these are the types of goods researched, more work must be done. Coming to conclusions about the prices of goods and products based on these brands is misleading.

The group said that the groceries order contributes to some of these high price levels. I want to know which prices. The group also examined ten input costs across the eurozone. What were the input costs? On the issue of off-invoice discounting being rife in the groceries sector, the group asserts a figure of up to 18%. Does this figure relate to gross discount? Does it take account of the costs associated with the supply of the product? If the group feels retailers are making such large profits in this way, has it studied their profits and could it give the committee an indication of what it found?

I join colleagues in welcoming Ms Ann Fitzgerald. I hope we will have many opportunities to interact on a range of issues in the coming weeks and months. Our focus will be very narrow but that should not be misinterpreted as being the extent of our interest in the commendable work the group has done.

Everyone is familiar with the phrase "lies, damn lies and statistics". We should focus on the basis on which the group came to its conclusions concerning the groceries order in particular. Is the group satisfied that the EUROSTAT statistical information, on which it seems to have placed great weight, is a sufficiently reliable basis for consumer prices and with the bold statement that Finland and Ireland are the most expensive countries? Is this not an analysis of both consumption as well as price?

The group said that developments in the market since the introduction of the order have rendered many of the provisions either unnecessary or inoperable. What are these developments? The group spoke about the ban and said that the French Government recently announced plans to remove it on below invoice selling, citing potential savings of 30% on food prices for the consumer and that no restrictions exist in the UK, Denmark, Germany, Spain or Italy. The Farrell Grant Sparks report claims that such bans exist in Germany, Spain and Italy. What is the position?

It has taken me a while to come to terms with the matter of invoice prices and what below cost pricing actually means, which is the net issue here. In its report, the group states it believes that, given the structure of the industry, it is not possible to introduce a system whereby all discounts and rebates must be reflected in the invoice price. Should such a system be possible, the group does not consider it enforceable. Why would it be impossible to have pricing transparency and why does the group consider it unenforceable?

We have had quite a number of questions.

I have a great regard for these Houses and I know many Members from the various political parties. We examined previous Dáil and Seanad debates on the groceries order since 1987. From these and the reviews that influenced Government and Opposition decisions, it is evident that off-invoice discounts — which continue to be a feature of the trade — are not in the interests of consumers, are an abuse of legislation and are an abuse of the trust legislators place in the trade to deliver a fair deal to consumers. This information is in the Houses' historical archives.

As Ms Ann Fitzgerald said, what was said in 1987 would not be relevant to the prosperous Ireland of today.

That is true. In 1987, we were poor and our retailers were scared of people coming in from abroad who would put them out of business. Deputy Howlin asked me what has changed and why we could not introduce enforceable invoice prices. Two Irish retailers, Superquinn and Dunnes Stores, have explained the situation to the committee in the recent months. We now have Aldi and Lidl from Germany and Tesco from the UK.

They still engage in what used to be known in the old days, in the time of the IDA, as transfer pricing. This was recognised back in 1987. They can do anything they want with an invoice. There was also massive growth in own label products.

Deputy Hogan asked a question about profits. We have a retail industry which has a law protecting it but which has refused to come into this room to meet the joint committee to discuss its profits and turnover. We asked for the same information but if the committee cannot get it, we will never do so, yet the industry wants to retain this law without being honest, open and transparent with the Deputies and Senators in this room.

We have made a recommendation that the Companies Act be amended to take account of this.

A Member

It is a crucial issue.

As we acknowledge.

The bans imposed in other countries have been mentioned. My colleague, Dr. Gahan, may be able to help me but I am aware that the bans imposed inother countries may not be quite the same in nature as those imposed in this country. It is very difficult to compare like with like but those imposed in France may be the closest.

Ms Fitzgerald has referred to the position in Germany, Spain and Italy but Farrell Grant Sparks states such below cost selling bans have been imposed. Therefore, one is right and one is wrong.

When was the report published?

I do not have a date. They are equally recent.

The Deputy can make it available to Dr. Gahan after the meeting.

Dr. Gahan

To echo what Ms Fitzgerald has said on the question of a ban, in some cases the interpretation in a particular country is different from that in Ireland. For instance, in Germany below cost selling can be an abuse of a dominant position. There are various qualifications in which below cost selling can be carried out. That is the reason I say there is a nuance and it is not always possible to construct a table indicating one country does allow it and another does not. It all depends on what one is looking at.

That is my point. Dr. Gahan said there were restrictions.

Dr. Gahan

That is correct but in practice once one looks more closely, there are variations. I would need to check.

I ask Dr. Gahan to inform the committee of the position.

I refer to a very important question raised by Mr. Fitzgerald, that is, why we examined groceries when there were so many other commodities one could have examined. We will be looking at many other commodities in the next few years. We looked at groceries for a number of reasons. We all shop every week whereas we do not necessarily consult a lawyer every week. High food and grocery prices which those of us with a few bob are able to sustain are grossly unfair onthe poor. If there is no downward pressure, the poor who spend all their money on these items and have no disposable income will end up paying.

We placed an advertisement in the newspapers seeking submissions from the public and the Government. We did not once mention the term "Groceries Order", yet nine of the ten submissions we received from the industry focused on it.

I wish to make a point on the importance of food prices. Food prices are static or declining in food retailing whereas prices for food eaten outside the home by all economic categories of the community are increasing. Inflation in this area has been running at 18% in the past four years. If we are to focus on an area which has value for people and where consumption is increasing, I agree we should concentrate on food prices but we should concentrate on the areas in which prices are way out of hand and increasing.

My final point relates to invoice pricing. Net invoice pricing allows business cost recovery that reflects the cost of doing business in the economy. With great respect, one could take the Aldi and Lidl route but one would not be employing Irish people in putting products on the shelves. Products can be imported. The nature of the economy can be changed to one where 80% of the food consumed here is imported. I agree it may well be cheaper because it is cheaper to do business elsewhere in Europe but I do not know if that is the economy we want.

That is the difficulty which the joint committee faces in making recommendations.

There are two unanswered questions on the accuracy of EUROSTAT figures and the reason it is not possible to have transparency on the subject of invoice pricing and enforcement regarding a basket of goods. The delegation states Ireland is one of the most expensive countries in the euro zone.

I will refer that question to the economists.

Dr. Gahan

EUROSTAT is part of the European Commission. It sets the standards for the collection of statistics in all member states.

In that instance, it is by price.

Dr. Gahan

The construction of price indices is very complicated; it is a matter which requires a great deal of consideration of how the basket should be composed and how changes should be measured. As I understand it, all member states collect data on a comparable basis following the guidelines set by EUROSTAT to ensure, as far as possible, comparability in order that conclusions can be drawn from the statistics. That is the reason for the existence of EUROSTAT. We accept that this work is being done well and that our statistical office, working with EUROSTAT, is preparing statistics for consumption which can be compared across Europe.

The selection of the basket of goods depends upon the availability of data for Ireland and other countries. We considered all the commodities and chose those for which there were data from Ireland. Some may not be as commonly used but what is of significance is that they are all branded products sold in all the countries concerned. There are plenty of other products such as hair shampoo, Magnum ice cream and Heinz tomato ketchup which are more common in shopping baskets in Ireland. In general, the comparison is restricted by the availability of data for Ireland and other countries.

I seek clarification. Mr. Ciaran Fitzgerald stated Irish produce accounts for a figure of 80% of the amount consumed in Ireland. Is the delegation saying that if the ban was abolished, this would reverse and foreign produce would account for a figure of 80%?

As a result of the model in use, Irish business costs are recovered. If this ability is removed, the Irish manufacturing and supply base will be replaced with imported products. Many products are manufactured by multinationals whose raison d’etre for being here and employing Irish people and recovering Irish business costs is that those costs can be recovered in the Irish marketplace. The profit level associated with this has been declining. There is no unexplained gap. However, if one cannot recover the cost of employing Irish people and Irish business costs, goods will be shipped in. That is the Aldi and Lidl model.

I welcome the delegation. On its establishment, was part of the work of the consumer body to justify its establishment as a semi-State body? Was that part of the motivation of the strategy group? There is an Irish consumer association already in existence but it is badly funded and supported and not very helpful. My name and shame campaign was adopted by Fine Gael but I do not mind because a good idea is worth being stolen. It called it rip-off Ireland.

It was national policy.

Senator Leyden to continue without interruption.

More semi-State organisations are being created. Groups such as this set out with a cause to justify their existence and creation but will cost the taxpayer a huge amount. A group such as this could be established as a voluntary organisation.

I do not believe our guests have justified their position relating to what comprises an a shopping basket. Why include Bacardi rum, an electric toothbrush, Ferrero Rocher chocolates and imported Evian water? If these were excluded, the difference would be approximately €1.77 compared to €1.73 or €1.78 on the CSG's list. I could easily put together a basket which would result in a greater difference between our costs and those overseas. I cannot understand why the group picked these items. It did not devise the comparison but engaged an international agency to carry out the work. Is the price analysis exclusive of VAT?

It is exclusive of all taxes.

The CSG has been asked about the matter on a number of occasions but has not given a very satisfactory answer. Who selected the items? Are they the normal choice? Poorer people who spend a high percentage of their income on groceries would not buy Bacardi rum, electric toothbrushes, Evian water or the cheeses mentioned. Perhaps, in order to maintain the flow, our guests might provide a quick answer to my questions.

I am taking questions from three members at a time to allow everyone to attend the Order of Business in both Houses.

In recommending the repeal of the groceries order, the CSG focussed on the ban on below cost selling. There does not seem to have been any discussion of other aspects of the order, such as the ban on hello money or the prevention of the abuse of credit turns. Does the group have any view on these aspects of the provisions of the groceries order?

During committee hearings, there was considerable support for a groceries order from groups such as Crosscare, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and the Combat Poverty Agency. They believe it is important and plays a significant role in ensuring that shoppers, particularly in private areas, obtain good retail value and choice.

The CSG stresses that it is a believer in openness, transparency and accountability but, like ourselves, it has failed because of the various corporate guises adopted by multiples, with unlimited companies and Irish subsidiaries of foreign nationals. Is there anything the group would recommend to us so that we could get behind its turnover and margins? Is there something more we should be doing? If we cannot do it, the CSG certainly cannot.

What direct evidence does the group have to show that the groceries order contributes to higher prices? Predatory pricing campaigns can lead to the closure of smaller entities and significantly combine investments, particularly in regions outside the Pale. Does the group have a view on what happened in Britain, where 42% of villages no longer have a grocery shop?

I will be brief because many of the questions I wished to pose have already been asked. We have producers in Ireland, whether recognised or not, and we would like them to remain here. I am a farmer and I would like to see the situation continuing. What effect will it have if we decide to bring in foreign goods that may be cheaper? Is that the Ireland we want or do we want to keep Irish people working at home?

Many people have come before us and stated that small stores would go if the groceries order was abolished. The larger stores would be able to sell at a very low rate for a period, during which the smaller stores would be closed. Thereafter, the larger stores could increase their prices to levels which might perhaps be way above those that obtain at present. I would like to hear delegates' comment in that regard.

Deputy Ned O'Keeffe may now ask his questions and we will then allow delegates to answer.

Ms Ann Fitzgerald went back to the Official Report of 1987 and many statements, apart from those uttered in the Dáil, were made at that time. Many of the recommendations from the Competition Authority and the CSG make the rich richer and the poor poorer. We are witnessing massive fall-out in terms of closures in the small regional sector. I have never before seen events of this nature. I come from a very prosperous part of the country.

I was recently in France and saw little or no retail development taking place on Sundays. No shops were open in the part of the country I visited.

Mention was made of garage forecourts and shops. It was an error on our part when enacting the Planning Act that permission was given for that. They are destroying the Centras and SuperValus, small shops and independent retailers that are not aligned to any agency. They have closed down our town centres, which are now becoming residential rather than retail areas,. People can only buy so much food and clothes. If they bought any more, it would be a waste. Large stores were previously able to target a particular family retailer in an area and undercut them. They also undercut manufacturers and jobs were lost in that sector.

In 2000, the Tánaiste, Deputy Harney, said:

I think we have to ask ourselves what type of country we want in Ireland. What kind of community we want. Do we want towns in Ireland to have reasonable shopping facilities? Do we want people in Ireland who don't have transport, who are very vulnerable, to have easy access to shopping facilities? If the answer to that is yes then I think we have to keep the Groceries Order. Below cost selling would lead to predatory pricing. The consumer has to come first and I think consumer choice would not be increased if I were to get rid of the Groceries Order.

I do not agree with her party's policy and am not that right wing. In a Forfás price survey carried out in 2003, Denmark was the most expensive country for food products, while Ireland was in the same category as Sweden, Finland, Luxembourg and France. Neither Sweden nor Finland has a ban on below cost selling and yet they are in the same price category as the Republic of Ireland. At least 12 EU states have a measure equivalent to a ban on below cost selling similar to that contained in the groceries order. Some countries are actively considering introducing bans as a result of predatory pricing by large multiples.

The CSG's idea is grandiose and will destroy — we have already seen evidence of this in the past — the retail sector. There will be an influx of foreign goods into the country, destroying both the agricultural community and the entire retail sector. These ideas are fine on paper but they do not work in reality. The groceries order was not brought in for fun. It was introduced to protect the groceries sector as well as the consumer as a result of what happened with undercutting. For example, Tesco, the largest multiple in the British Isles, has 26% or 27% of the market share here and in the UK. It makes massive profits across both countries and its shares are booming on the stock market. It can target any town or city in Ireland, undercut prices and close the entire area down and have it for itself. This is what has happened.

We have the highest service charges in the world because we do not have incineration. The major components of any good business are electricity, refuse and water supply charges in order to ensure hygiene and other necessities. The position is not as satisfactory as the CSG report would have us believe. If one wants to be realistic and practical, one must consider what I have said. I have quoted other people who support what I am saying.

We can look at what is happening in the United Kingdom where Morrisons has been bought by Asda or one of the other large companies and there is corporate cannibalism within the big supermarket stores. Marks & Spencer is in difficulty. Walmart has entered the market because it can source products cheaply worldwide but its main interests lie outside groceries. Therefore, the matter is not as simple as we make it. These ideas are making the rich richer and the poor poorer.

Ms Ann Fitzgerald and Mr. Ciaran Fitzgerald have heard the seriously held views of committee members in the first round of questions. I ask Ms Fitzgerald to respond.

I genuinely do not want to leave any questions unanswered. If I miss out on one, please tell me.

If I was running a business in Ireland, I would be delighted to have a law in place which guaranteed recovery of my business costs but perhaps that is an issue for another day.

Ms Ann Fitzgerald will have that in her new organisation.

On that point, this is not an industry with massive profit margins. The profit margin on some products is 3%, 4% or 5%. None is generating a profit margin of 35%, 36% or 37%. Am I correct?

I do not know.

Ms Ann Fitzgerald must know. She is dealing with the groceries order. If one is selling groceries, how much does one make on a pound of butter? How much does one make on a loaf of bread?

That is a question for the retail industry to answer. The Chairman can demand that information.

Does Ms Ann Fitzgerald have it?

Ms Ann Fitzgerald is coming to this committee to make a recommendation on the Restrictive Practices (Groceries) Order 1987 and does not know how much profit is made on a pound of butter or a loaf of bread.

They do not give that information to the joint committee either.

I am only asking the question. We are just trying to find out what the position is. We would like to think we are the conduit from the Government to the industry. We are here to help it, protect the consumer and see what the Government can do to make the country a fair place in which to do business at a fair price for the consumer and to sustain jobs. That is our remit.

We will be asking many soul-searching questions of Ms Ann Fitzgerald and her colleagues because what she is proposing is a living fear for us, as public representatives. We want to ensure we do what is right on behalf of the people. We want to ensure we do not reach a position where in three or four years there will be nothing but multiplies in Mullingar or Longford and the local authorities, because of the hard-earned taxes and rates of small family business, will have left the centre of towns denuded, as Deputy O'Keeffe outlined. He comes from a neighbouring county. Ms Ann Fitzgerald has enormous experience and we respect and accept everything she is telling us. We are just saying we are fearful of the impact of these far-reaching changes on the Irish style of doing business, bearing in mind that this is an island economy.

The Chairman should give Ms Ann Fitzgerald a chance to answer the questions posed.

Let me make a suggestion. We did not set out to be anti-business in the report. I do not believe in being anti-business. Business, the consumer and the Government must work together. I would genuinely like to see — I have said this in the context of what has happened since the report was published — us all sit down to see if we can do something different which would be in the interests of business and consumers, ensure we would all get a fair deal and deliver to all of us what we want. Perhaps that is the challenge with which the new interim board, the industry and the joint committee must come to terms before the end of July when the consultation period comes to an end. At the end of the day, we all want the same thing.

The Consumer Association of Ireland was mentioned. We have great time for it. It is a voluntary body with 8,000 members. We recommended in the report that the Government continue to support it. We want to continue working with it. However, from the work we did overseas in the context of how business and the consumer work and add value together, to expect the Consumer Association of Ireland to do the job we envisage would be a little like expecting the Society of St. Vincent de Paul to do the job of the Department of Social and Family Affairs. It is not doable by a voluntary body, as has been recognised in other countries.

There was an important question about the Combat Poverty Agency — I read the transcripts of the contributions of those organisations which appeared before the joint committee — hello money, etc. I am not convinced because we, as consumers, did not understand it until we looked at it, that the Combat Poverty Agency, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and others understood the groceries order did not really represent a ban on below cost selling. Perhaps if the committee brought them back again and asked them today, it would be different.

That is unfair. Ms Ann Fitzgerald is saying they do not know what they are talking about.

No. I am saying very few outside this room really understood how it worked.

We will interpret that. Ms Ann Fitzgerald has a view, as they do.

I was asked about the payment of hello money and other important matters. We think there is value in keeping such provisions. Because of the way the legislation is structured and because one cannot amend the order in such a way that it falls or is retained, we have decided that the interests of the consumer lie in immediate decisions on the groceries order and that important issues such as hello money can be taken up in another context. We did not ignore it.

Is what Ms Ann Fitzgerald has said correct?

That is our understanding. One cannot amend the order.

I do not think that is correct.

That is also the Minister's advice.

We must check and come back to Ms Fitzgerald.

Did Ms Ann Fitzgerald discover if hello money which is banned was being obtained in other ways?

No. We felt there was value in all our interests. This is the partnership of which we speak. We are not saying we live in an isolated world. We would like to see suppliers being able to put their goods on supermarket or convenience store shelves and do not like the concept of hello money but consumer interests——

Ms Ann Fitzgerald knows what is being done to suppliers.

Yes. They have told us.

Dr. Gahan has brought us through how, in using these research methods to select a basket of goods across Europe, one picks items. I suggest that if we had done what we all do as individuals, that is, use our experience in shopping abroad when we go on holidays or shopping on the Internet, we would probably have come up with the same answer. Our experience — we can all see this, as can the members' constituents — is that it is clear since the euro was introduced Ireland is a much more expensive place in which to buy products.

Notwithstanding wages and costs.

That is the point.

We looked at that issue.

I do not think so.

On predatory pricing and small stores, when the groceries order was introduced in 1987, there was an expectation the ordinary small village corner shop which provided a significant service would grow and prosper. Regrettably, they continue to decline and many have become Spar, Centra and Supervalu outlets. They have not disappeared as a concept. Some have but not all. They are still providing us with a good service, which is to be welcomed.

I am not an economist but economists will say predatory pricing does not work, that a company which sets out to engage in it will soon be out of business. Perhaps that is fine on a national level but, coming from County Kerry, I see a danger at local level whereby somebody will put undue pressure on smaller shops which will have the effect of putting them out of business. Perhaps that is what we are talking about in asking if we can change the way we do things at present to protect all of and give us what we all want in the context of the Groceries Order in order that we will all end up with a good world in which to live.

Have I left anything out?

The electric toothbrushes, etc.

That brings us back to what Dr. Gahan stated. Perhaps he should answer.

Ms Ann Fitzgerald seems to have a higher lifestyle than the average consumer. That is what members are saying.

Dr. Gahan

These were not products we selected; they were self-selected. We went through the comparative data and we picked out all the products both from Ireland and other eurozone countries to try to give as full a picture as possible. We bought a large file of data and picked out all the products we could use to make comparisons. That is why these products are self-selected. They are used on the basis of international comparisons.

How many times does a person buy an electric toothbrush?

Dr. Gahan

The advantage of setting out the full table and giving the details of the commodities is that——

It is not a shopping basket. It is ridiculous.

Dr. Gahan

Having published all the figures here, it is possible to look at each individual item and decide its relevance. I accept that everyone would not buy all these products. They are available in all the countries and they enable comparisons to be made. That is why they are put on the table.

An electric toothbrush is not a grocery item. Bacardi and Coke is a lovely drink but it is not bought by everyone everyday.

Dr. Gahan

I agree with the Senator.

The question of whether the unexplained gap relates to costs or profits, as the report suggests, was addressed by Paul Tansey in 2003. There is analysis in the public domain which shows that there was an increase in gross margins in parts of the retail sector and that this reflected increasing costs and net margins decline. The information to which I refer is available. A proposition is being put to consumers and people in general that there is a reward for doing something. The reward in terms of lower prices is illusory because one cannot disconnect prices from costs. Before we make the proposition or the jump, however, we need more analysis of what is happening in terms of pricing.

We have suggested to the Government that all other aspects of business are in the public domain. We know the agricultural and manufacturing prices but there is a gap in respect of consumer prices. We suggested that the CSO should consider what is happening in the retail sector in the context of the essentials of distribution and measure the costs so that we do not have different views. We are being asked to make a major decision on the basis of conjecture. That work must be done so that we are not picking holes in one survey or another. We want to do real work which measures economic impact and costs. We are being asked to make a major decision for both consumers and business. We should do that on the basis of mature reflection rather than on work which points to gaps but which does not tell us how to rectify them. The gap in that knowledge is in the public domain in terms of the Tansey report.

I welcome Mr. Ciaran Fitzgerald's last suggestion. No evidence has been provided in any survey which shows that we would have sustainable low prices if we abolished the groceries order. If the Consumer Strategy Group or the Competition Authority can come up with evidence which shows that we will have such prices if it is abolished, that will be a different ball game. We have not come to that conclusion yet because we do not have any such evidence.

Ms Ann Fitzgerald based the report's findings about prices in Ireland on some price surveys to which we alluded. One interesting feature about the survey of branded goods is that VAT seems to be applied to some food products. Perhaps Dr. Gahan could tell me if that is true. VAT should not be applied to the products about which we are speaking if we are comparing them with a basket of grocery products in Ireland. However, VAT has been applied to some of them. The group has not presented like with like.

Dr. Gahan

The figures presented include and exclude VAT. All the comparisons can be made, depending on whether one wants to include VAT.

Including or excluding VAT will give a skewed result. If VAT is included on some products but not on others, or on products which attract a zero rate in this country, it will lead to a skewed result. It is a flawed survey.

It is also interesting to note — I do not know if the group took this into account — that notwithstanding the groceries order, the price of meat, fruit and vegetables is increasing exponentially compared to other grocery prices. Why is that the case? These products are in the normal household basket of goods but they are outside the groceries order. The groceries order does not seem to have prohibited Tesco, Aldi or Lidl from providing great competition in recent years. I welcome Aldi and Lidl to this country. They provide great discount retailing competition, notwithstanding the problems the group perceives in terms of the competitive environment.

We need evidence that there will be sustainable low prices for consumers. At the same time, they must have choice and diversity. We do not want this section to become like that relating to insurance, where five or six multiples control the market and where there is no competition, choice or diversity. The less well off in our society would not be happy if they had to travel three or four miles by bus, even in Dublin, to obtain a wide variety of household goods and services.

Deputy Hogan has said it all. We have no evidence from any source that the groceries order has had the effect of increasing prices. We welcome competition in the market. There is evidence that there is plenty of choice. We do not want to limit choice by wiping out shops.

I will ask our guests to answer those questions and I will then allow Deputy Ned O'Keeffe to contribute because I know he has much experience in this field. If the groceries order could be amended, what view would the group take?

That is an important question. I am reminded of the meetings at which the Consumer Strategy Group discussed this issue. I am not an economist but such a person would take a purist view and say it should be abolished. If I had put such a proposition to the Consumer Strategy Group, I would have been thrown out. The group did not accept the invoice price differential and the fact that it allows invoice discounts. Perhaps we should all try — the Legislature saw what happened in 1987 — to find a way to ensure transparency of prices and that consumers are able to directly avail of discounts which the retailer gets, while ensuring that we are protected from predatory pricing. However, I am in limbo because the Consumer Strategy Group is dead and there is now an interim board for the National Consumer Agency, which must look at all these things. There is room for compromise.

We have addressed some of the points made by Deputy Hogan, particularly those relating to the flawed survey. We take on board his points but if we came in with anecdotal evidence, we would be thrown out.

Does Ms Ann Fitzgerald accept that it is a flawed survey because it is not representative of a typical Irish household basket of goods and services?

If one wants to carry out a survey of a larger basket of goods across the eurozone which gives as much comparability as possible — this is only a fraction of what the people from Forfás bought — one will find such anomalies. However, there are many other things included which are part of our household spending. All statistics are like that.

Does Ms Ann Fitzgerald agree that the basket should be for essentials such as tea, butter, bread and milk?

That is a very dangerous question because one could turn it around and say the groceries order should cover the essentials only rather than liquid soap.

If we made that proposal, at least we would have something on which to go.

To discuss is not to agree. However, we must tease out the matter. There is a major difference of opinion among committee members on the basket of goods the consumer strategy group used.

When the consumer strategy group looked at the issue, did it investigate own label products? Such products are misleading. For example, if O'Keeffe & Company supplies companies such as Dunnes and Tesco as well as other markets, it can use red, green and blue labels and nobody will know where the product is manufactured. The label on own brand products only indicates that the product is packed for the multiple in question. Recently certain own brand sauces and other food items had to be withdrawn from supermarket shelves. The products had been manufactured by Cross and Blackwell as own label products. If the consumer strategy group has not investigated own label goods, will it make recommendations on protecting the consumer? Traceability is a very important consumer issue in the global market. Does the group have a view on providing information on the country of origin and place of manufacture on packaging of own brand products? This is vital information for the consumer who must be protected. We, the politicians, represent the people, not business.

May I make an observation that we have exposed what, in my view, is flawed thinking on the conclusions reached? There is misleading information on how eurozone countries deal with consumer law in this important area. Notwithstanding the fact that it was not included in the terms of reference to go into the detail of the groceries order, we should have been given a more general picture on all facets of life where there is a significant problem of competitiveness. The recent report from the energy regulator is signalling a 36% increase in energy prices at a time when they have already increased by 29% in the past three years.

The Chairman has a significant body of work to address but decided to zoom in on one issue. This is unfortunate because of the potential to do good work as part of a national consumer agency.

It is important that I respond to that point. I am not sure if the Deputy is referring to our presentation to the committee today in which we focused on the groceries order or the report as a whole.

The report as a whole.

In response to the Deputy's comment on the electricity regulator, we are very conscious that there are regulators of services, particularly electricity, in respect of which consumers have no choice. One recommendation from the Consumer Strategy Group is that the new agency have a statutory right to seek information from the regulators and be able to come to its own view as to whether the proposed increase is justified and to have an input in that process. There is nobody to do so at present. Under its terms of reference, the Consumer Strategy Group has absolute freedom to conduct studies as it sees fit. As I mentioned, nine of the ten submissions we received from the trade referred, without being asked, to the groceries order. We would have researched it anyway because it is an important part of people's shopping.

We want to work with members of the joint committee. We are meeting early next month and a new board will be formed. We want to engage with members in empowering consumers and developing a partnership with members because it is in all our interests to do so.

That is a generous offer that we should take up.

Should I make a proposal to members to adjourn this meeting as there are a great many questions that need further clarification? The nature of the submission from the Consumer Strategy Group is very serious. We must conclude our deliberations on these issues and make a submission to the Minister by mid-July.

I propose that we adjourn the meeting and reserve the right to call back the Consumer Strategy Group and IBEC to discuss the issues involved.

Yes. We will ask O'Reilly Consultants and Mr. Myles O'Reilly to check information on the issues we want clarified.

In particular, invoice discounting.

We should conduct a consumer survey based on the products people normally buy, not products such as electric toothbrushes and Bacardi rum.

I am informed by Mr. O'Reilly, our consultant, that this could be a very time consuming and costly exercise. We must make a submission to the Minister by mid-July

I suggest we meet again on the matter in two weeks time.

I agree with Deputy Hogan's suggestion.

We will adjourn this part of our investigation under the groceries order until Wednesday, 6 July 2005 when we can consider what further action we can take as a committee.

I thank Ms Ann Fitzgerald, Dr. Gahan, Mr. Shinnick, Mr. Ciaran Fitzgerald and Ms Garth.

I was waiting for a reply to my question on own label products.

Own brand products

We looked at own label products in terms of the groceries order only because it was potentially a way of hiding the cost of invoices. I read the report of the joint committee very carefully. I will bring the points raised by the Deputy on traceability and country of origin to the new board.

And place of manufacture.

The Consumer Strategy Group did not look at that issue specifically.

Is it part of the brief of the Consumer Strategy Group?

Perhaps it is also a question for discussion with the Food Safety Authority. We hope our brief will be broad-ranging. We do not want the new agency to state this is not an issue for it and to park it somewhere else.

I thank the delegation for assisting the joint committee. We very much look forward to working together in order that we can assist each other in the future. It is a difficult topic. We appreciate the serious challenges facing both of us in informing the Minister. The clerk will contact the delegation in due course when we have deliberated as a committee on this day two weeks to see how we can work together to clarify the various issues about which the committee is concerned.

Does the joint committee agree that the submissions made by the two groups should be made available to the press? Agreed.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.10 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. Wednesday, 29 June 2005.

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