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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE AND SMALL BUSINESS debate -
Wednesday, 29 Jun 2005

Computer Implemented Inventions Directive: Presentation.

I welcome Ms Kathryn Raleigh, director of ICT Ireland; Mr. Brian Deane, director of CTEC Solutions; Mr. Terry Landers from Microsoft; Mr. Conor O'Riordan, CEO of CP3; and Mr. Barry Moore from the Irish Software Association. The delegation is with us to discuss the computer implemented inventions directive.

I draw the attention of delegates to the fact that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not extend to them. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I ask Ms Raleigh to make the presentation on behalf of the group.

Ms Kathryn Raleigh

I will go through the presentation briefly and then ask my colleagues to introduce themselves and talk about the relevance of patents for their companies. There is a good mixture of large and small companies represented here.

The Order of Business will take place in the Dáil and Seanad at 10.30 a.m. We want to get to the question and answer session by about 10.15 a.m.

Ms Raleigh

I will outline the background to the information and communication technology, ICT, sector, the background to the legislation and its aim, the reasons patents are important to the ICT sector, Ireland and the European Union and the reason the directive is so important.

Many committee members will be aware of the importance of the ICT sector in Ireland. It employs 100,000 people. Significantly, if I had appeared before a parliamentary committee 12 or 15 years ago, that number would have been as low as 50,000. There has been dramatic growth in the sector in recent years. It generates sales of €52 billion, to which a significant contribution is made by foreign direct investment but also by a significant indigenous sector.

The ICT sector in Ireland includes about 1,000 companies, 700 of which are small and medium-sized enterprises, SMEs. The remaining 300 are foreign direct investment entities, typically multinational companies which recruit many staff. One must acknowledge that the SME sector is both vocal and relevant within the overall ICT sector. It generates exports of €45 million. At more than €600 million, the corporation tax contribution is no mean figure. The wage bill is €4 billion. The contributions to PAYE and PRSI are over €900 million and €700 million, respectively. Of significance in the case of this legislation is the research and development spend of €900 million.

As it is quite a mouthful, the directive on patentability of computer implemented inventions has been shortened to either the patents directive or the CII directive. In March the European Council adopted a Common Position, of which the industry would be broadly in favour. We think it did a good job in trying to harmonise the current regime. The European Parliament will vote on the matter next week in Strasbourg. That is one of the reasons we are here to talk to the joint committee today about the legislation.

The directive establishes the patentability of computer implemented inventions when they perform a technical function. That is significant. In other words, one cannot patent pure software or a business method, although one can in America but we are not looking for this in Europe. We think patents should be attached to a technical function. That is where much of the research is conducted and the development spend made when a company is developing products. That is the part that we think needs to be protected. Software can be protected through copyright but that is not enough to protect the technical function.

The aim of the directive is to harmonise a regime which has been working successfully for the past two decades in Europe. Although companies may file their claims through national regimes or the European Patent Office, the problem is they cannot defend them easily because they must go to 25 countries with 25 legislative regimes and perhaps 25 outcomes. The directive aims to harmonise the process in order that such activity will not be necessary. It will make the process more straightforward, clarify the position for many companies and, more importantly, reduce the cost for many SMEs.

One might ask why patents are important. Having spoken about the directive and its aim, one might ask what is so good about patents and why we should protect them. For the ICT sector, they promote innovation and research and development. If we listen to many of our advisers and European politicians on reaching the targets set in the Lisbon Agenda, we will need to invest more in research and development, in which many companies in Ireland invest a good deal of money. To give them an incentive, they need to be able to protect their invention. If we do not permit them to protect their patents and inventions, they will not see the need to invest in research and development and we will certainly fail in our aim to become a leading ICT centre in Europe and the world. Patents provide incentives for companies to undertake research. I outlined the importance of the ICT sector to Ireland. The issue to bear in mind is that if we do not continue to protect our patents, we will lose our position as a global leader.

One might ask why the patents directive is important for the ICT sector in Ireland and elsewhere in Europe. Patents are awarded on a national basis. This directive attempts to clarify disputes in national courts and information coming from the 25 different jurisdictions.

One of the problems we faced in talking to people opposed to this legislation is that they do not accept that this is good for SMEs. Some of my colleagues will talk further about that. It is very important for me to leave behind the message that this directive is just as important for the SME sector as it is for companies such as Microsoft. The patent directive will allow an SME to be on the same level playing field as a large company. By protecting their patents they are in a position to negotiate and deal with large companies rather than being swallowed up by them.

It is also very important for SMEs seeking venture funds. I am sure members of the committee have often heard companies speak about how difficult it is to get seed capital and venture funds to enable them to go from being a fledgling company to dealing on the global stage. A patent will encourage venture capitalists and angel investors to invest in a company where their intellectual property is protected. Very importantly, SMEs can access a very large customer base by licensing their software. They cannot license their software unless they have something to license, and they cannot do that without protecting their intellectual property.

The Common Position does not seek to change what has already been extremely successful over the past two decades but rather seeks to harmonise and codify the current system. It will make it less difficult, expensive and complex for companies to protect their inventions. Some of the European Parliament's amendments which will be voted on next week could, if adopted, radically change the current environment and exclude many inventions. It will jeopardise innovation and research and development in the long term in Europe and in Ireland. It will shift investment from multinational companies and foreign direct investment to areas where intellectual property is protected, such as Japan and America, and over the long term it will also open the door to low-cost economies which will then be free to imitate European products.

Before I ask some of my colleagues to speak and respond to questions, let me say that in the past two decades more than 30,000 CII patents have been filed in Europe. We have a list of the Irish patents that have been filed. A minimum of 300 that have been listed are companies which have a registered address in Ireland. Many Irish companies, as members of the committee are aware, file their patents using a foreign address. That indicates the level of importance SMEs place on the patents directive.

I thank the committee for its time. I will respond to any questions. Some of my colleagues will explain why the patents directive is important for them.

Mr. Brian Deane

CTEC Solutions is a small company which employs six people in Blanchardstown and north-west Dublin. There are 25 employees who benefit indirectly from the work we are able to glean from multinational organisations. We deal with companies such as Nokia, Accenture, the National Health Service in England and the Homeland Security Commission in the United States of America. All of these work with us on the condition that there is some level of protection for the product we are representing to them. It is key for us going forward that the common position is supported and passes, as Ms Raleigh has outlined. I am also firmly of the view that there is no difficulty for small to medium enterprises where patent protection is concerned in terms of working with their greater multinational counterparts. We have found that it works to our benefit.

Mr. Terry Landers

Good morning, Chairman. Thank you for the opportunity to come before the committee. I represent Microsoft, a company that is proud to celebrate 20 years in Ireland this year. We employ approximately 1,200 people directly in Ireland and thousands more indirectly. In Europe we employ 14,000 people. In what we call the ecosystem of network of suppliers and partners, we estimate that there are 1.6 million people in Europe working in products, areas and services directly related to the Microsoft platform. Within our employee population we currently have 500 people involved in development. On 10 March last we announced the establishment of a new research and development centre which will employ upwards of 160 researchers.

We view intellectual property as a core building block of the knowledge economy. It is essential not just to our company's development but also to Ireland's development. Intellectual property, particularly being able to file patents, provides a fundamental way of codifying new intellectual property and new research and innovation that we produce. It is also a way of allowing us to cross-license from other companies. Much that we bring to market is not entirely development, it is the reflection of a whole range of licensing arrangements we have.

Sub-licences.

Mr. Landers

Exactly. Filing patents is a great way of codifying and being able to transact those new innovations. We are particularly keen on supporting the Common Position. It does not change any of the fundamentals that have pertained up to this point. It preserves the intellectual property fabric not just in Ireland but in Europe, which is critically important for Ireland's future competitiveness and for building the knowledge economy in Europe. In the vote in the European Parliament on 6 July next it is particularly important that the Common Position is supported.

Mr. Conor O’Riordan

The committee has heard from the big. We are the small, a classic SME. We saw what we defined as an opportunity two years ago and our funding to date has come from Enterprise Ireland, private investment, the BES and own director funding. We employ eight people. We are coming out at the end of a two and a half year process with an innovative solution that will be deployed in China and Hungary. Last week we met representatives from an American company that turns over in excess of $1 billion. They had 30 people working on a similar project and they said it had no shape compared to what we have built here. We are, therefore, a classic case of an SME looking at patents and what they can do.

From our point of view patents are no different to the case of somebody writing a song and getting a royalty on it and going forward. We are keeping matters simple. If all the investment that has gone into this could be protected if I were based in America, why can it not be protected in Europe?

It must be protected.

Mr. Barry Moore

Thank you, Chairman. I represent the Irish Software Association, a group that represents 15,000 employees in Ireland. Many of these employees are employed in small to medium enterprises, indigenous companies setting up. In the case of a small start-up company there is a very good idea in the heads of a few of the developers and promoters of the company and the pegging system allows them to crystalise that into a property right that then belongs to the company. That enables the company to attract investment, as described by some of my colleagues. It also provides wealth and bottom-line tangible assets to the company.

The software industry is a very important industry in Ireland. It is a very important industry in Europe. It should be treated no differently from any other industry within the European context. If the Common Position is not adopted by the European Parliament, the software industry will be prejudiced vis-à-vis other industries and that should not be allowed. We are very much in favour of the Common Position and ask that it be supported.

Before I invite members to ask questions, let me say that this was used as a barter system many years ago and was not treated as a serious industry. To my knowledge it was used to barter and for phishing in some countries. Very many years ago we passed copyright legislation of which we are very proud. It was one of the largest pieces of legislation ever passed, with 1,100 sections. I am very aware of the serious implications regarding intellectual property.

What is the position of Germany, France and the UK on the proposal before us? I always understood that the people in the copyright field stood shoulder to shoulder with the United States, in particular, in terms of protecting intellectual property and the patents which the delegation pointed out are of enormous importance to the industry and to Ireland from a research and development point of view. Where do they stand in this regard?

Ms Raleigh

Officially the states you mentioned and many other European countries support the Common Position. The problem we have faced in recent months is that many members of the European Parliament do not because there has been a widespread and disingenuous campaign by many organisations to discourage MEPs from voting in favour. Officially most European countries are in favour of the Common Position. The MEPs must decide next week whether to support the Common Position or the amendments. Some of the amendments which will be tabled next week are good and they clarify some grey areas of the Common Position. However, a handful of amendments will be difficult.

We were in Brussels last week, where we met all the Irish MEPs. We got a good hearing from all of them. Many were well aware of this directive and of the dangers. We ask members to encourage their party MEPs to support the ICT sector in Ireland. We made a commitment to go back to the MEPs this week to give them a list of the amendments which are dangerous for the industry and to ask them not to support them. Most of the MEPs to whom we spoke were open to that.

Are you going back next week?

Ms Raleigh

That is unlikely at this stage. We have met all our MEPs and we have built up a good relationship with them in recent months. When they get to Strasbourg they will probably be fed up with that level of lobbying and they will want to get on with their jobs.

This issue is so serious I suggest the delegation should consider going out again. The delegation's opening remarks about the level of employment and the industry's contribution to the Exchequer are of enormous importance.

I welcome the delegation to the joint committee. Ms Raleigh said that the delegation had an excellent meeting with the MEPs. However, she then said she wanted us to lobby them. Is there a problem with some of them?

Ms Raleigh

We are not sure because we will not know until the vote.

We are in public session.

I know we are in public session, but we need to know now if there is a problem with some of them.

Ms Raleigh

We got a good hearing from all our MEPs and they were knowledgeable on the subject. Practically all the MEPs indicated that we made a good argument in favour of the ICT sector. It is hard to know because not everyone committed to voting in favour of the common position.

I want to know if any of those are in Fine Gael.

Ms Raleigh

That is fine.

I also want to know if they are in Fianna Fáil.

I propose that we should write to the MEPs indicating the committee's support for the common position. Where is the pressure coming from for the amendments? Is it from eastern Europe?

Ms Raleigh

That is a good point. There is some pressure coming from some eastern European countries, but it is coming from everywhere. There is a section within every European country opposed to patents. Perhaps that is because they are not involved in research and development and they do not see innovation as a key driver for their organisation. Many proponents of open source technology, with which I am sure some members are familiar, are not in favour of this directive. My argument against that is that open source technology and patents have co-existed for the past 25 years while the current regime has been in existence. We will continue to co-exist. We regard open source technology as a different form of licensing and model. However, some people in the open source movement argue at an extreme level that it should only be open source and nothing else. That is probably where some of the pressure is coming from.

Research and development is of immense importance, particularly to this country. Who will invest in research and development if there is no protection? This is a serious problem.

I brought in the last detailed patents legislation after widespread consultation, particularly with the pharmaceutical industry. I am delighted the delegation is singing from one hymn sheet. I endorse what has been said. It is vital to have European-wide patents to protect the intellectual properties being developed here. What can we do other than unanimously endorsing the directive this morning? Can we form a delegation to go to Brussels to lobby our MEPs to enact this vital directive?

We are all aware of the statistics outlined by Ms Raleigh. Some 100,000 people are employed in the ICT sector. I am concerned not only about present development, but also about future development. It is in our national interest to monitor this situation and to assist in every way we can as a joint committee of this Parliament. I would fully concur with any arrangement to meet our MEPs here or in Brussels to discuss this issue.

Ms Raleigh has already said they have briefed the MEPs, although commitments have not been forthcoming. It is of such importance to the country that I will take that proposal on board. I do not have any difficulty appointing two or three members to go to Brussels on 6, 7 and 8 July to act as a watchdog on behalf of the all-party committee and to ensure that everyone knows in minute detail the importance of this issue to the country.

I propose that the committee should be represented.

I second that.

Is that agreed? Agreed. The committee will be represented in Brussels for the three days. We will ask our clerk to arrange that. The delegation should also be there to assist the three members of the committee because its members are the experts. Perhaps two members of the delegation could accompany three members of the committee. We will make arrangements after this meeting in that regard.

Ms Raleigh

We appreciate that.

We assure the delegation and its leaders that nothing more serious has come before this committee in the past three years. If patents are not protected, it will be a recipe for disaster. Who will come from America to do business in Europe if that situation is allowed to continue?

We acknowledge the presence of Mr. Landers here this morning. It is also good to see the small Irish companies represented here. I have often been in the same position in the music industry, where people were only one good idea away from employing a significant number of people. The development of blackberry technology at the University of Waterloo in Toronto is the greatest example of how three young men could make 1,400 people happy by employing them.

We will do whatever we can to assist the delegation in pushing this directive through Parliament. It will be pushing an open door at this committee for the remainder of the Government's life. We would like to think we are the conduit between the ICT industry and the Government. We want to play our role in what the industry is generating in our economy. The industry contributes €1.5 billion to PAYE and PRSI and it also pays €629 million in corporation tax. It employs 100,000 people and it has exports worth €45 billion. No other industry plays a greater part in this country than that currently played by the ICT industry. I assure the delegation of our fullest co-operation and total support in its endeavours in the copyright or any other field and in the role it plays in our economy.

This committee should support the work of the delegation in every way possible because of the importance of the industry. Have the representatives made the committee aware of the amendments that may cause a difficulty? If not, they should do so.

Ms Raleigh

We have started that work and will complete it today. We will send that to the committee.

Will they also send a list of the MEPs Ms Raleigh believes may be lukewarm, so to speak, in terms of the amendments?

Ms Raleigh

Yes.

I do not want the Fine Gael list or——

We will handle that.

Ms Raleigh met the Minister.

Ms Raleigh

Yes. We met the Minister, Deputy Ahern, some time ago. He is in charge of this legislation. A delegation met him a number of months ago.

Is he supportive?

Ms Raleigh

Absolutely, yes.

Will Ms Raleigh check whether the legislation I introduced in the Oireachtas is up to the standard she would wish because we are in a position to influence any change in areas that are now more relevant than they were at that time?

Ms Raleigh

Thank you very much.

My briefing from the Department this morning states that the Parliament is due to vote in Strasbourg in plenary session on 6 July. It is possible for MEPs to retable amendments or table new ones up to 29 June.

I am not certain members of the delegation want to table any new amendments. Given that we are so close to the wire and with a Parliament of that size, it might cause a great deal of confusion if other amendments entered the fray. We should promote the position put to us today, examine the amendments that are favourable and identify those that people are conscious might cause a difficulty.

Will the delegation clarify that?

The European Parliament decides on the amendments and the legislation. Is that put in the form of a directive?

Ms Raleigh

That is right.

The directive is then sent to Ireland and we are expected to legislate for the directive. Is that right?

Ms Raleigh

That is right.

In the American system — I realise we are talking about federal law — various states such as Minnesota, Tennessee and so on can cherry-pick the directives that arrive from Washington. Can we do that here? Can we pick the parts of the directives that are more suitable to us or do we have common legislation across the 25 member states?

Ms Raleigh

It would be very unlikely we could do that.

Is it not the case that what is relevant in Sweden might not be relevant in Ireland?

Ms Raleigh

Possibly, but one of the aims of this legislation is to harmonise what is happening across Europe. We would be more in favour of getting the legislation right at this stage and making sure it——

Which regulatory authority within the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment deals with the implementation of the Intellectual Properties Act?

Mr. Landers

The Irish Patents Office and the European Patent Office.

Is there an Irish office?

Ms Raleigh

There is the Irish Patents Office.

Mr. Landers

It is within the IP unit of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

What view has it taken?

Ms Raleigh

It has been very supportive. The European Patent Office and the Irish Patents Office have been very supportive. It will make their job easier and they would see that this would encourage more patents to be——

Would Enterprise Ireland have an input?

Ms Raleigh

Enterprise Ireland has been supportive because it sees the value in the product.

The world is Ms Raleigh's own. She is going in the right direction.

When the Chairman said the vote would be held on 6 July in the Parliament it struck me that if we are sending a delegation, its members would want to be in Strasbourg the day before, and Strasbourg is not an easy place to get to.

No. I want to point out to the committee again that it is possible for MEPs to retable amendments or table new amendments up to today, 29 June.

Ms Raleigh

My view is that it would be unlikely that a new amendment would get a decent hearing at this late stage. There are many amendments of which we would be very much in support and there are a handful that need to be examined carefully.

Let us put this into perspective. Our biggest market is the United States of America. On the intellectual property side of the music business, we always work hand in hand with the system in the United States. Europe has always done that. The proposal before us is to break with the patent system that operates in the United States of America. Is that correct, Mr. Andrews?

Mr. Andrews

The proposal would be to change or to dilute the system if some of the amendments are successful. The common position is essentially consistent with the World Trade Organisation under a system called TRIPs, the trading system for intellectual property rights. We are arguing to support that. The common position preserves the regime that currently pertains in Europe. The argument we are making is that we would not like to see any dilution of that position. We would view that as a retrograde step undermining the development and protection of, and the trading system for, intellectual property in Europe.

I cannot envisage Germany, France or the UK, the three big European players over the years, agreeing to anything that will change what has been best practice with the United States of America. Are you fearful that something could creep in, so to speak?

Ms Raleigh

Yes.

On behalf of the committee, I thank you all for attending this morning. Three members of the committee will make up the delegation. Eoin Faherty, the clerk to the committee, will be in touch with you, Ms Raleigh, to make arrangements to travel on 5 July. We will have to travel early in the morning if we are to do our work on 5 July. We wish you well in your visit. From our country's point of view, there is never the wrong time to do the right thing and that is what we are trying to do here today. Thank you very much.

Ms Raleigh

Thank you, Chairman.

We will leave it to the conveners to arrange the deputation.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.30 a.m. sine die.

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