JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE AND SMALL BUSINESS debate -
Thursday, 3 Nov 2005

Local Government: Presentations.

Chairman

On the local government module, I welcome the representatives of the Kilkenny County Enterprise Board and the Mallow Development Partnership. I welcome Mr. John McDonnell, chairman of the Mallow Development Partnership, Mr. John Sheahan, chairman of the Cork North Enterprise Board, Mr. Rochie Holohan, chief executive of the Cork North Enterprise Board, and Mr. Jim Roynane, president of Mallow Chamber of Commerce. I also welcome Ms Mary McEvoy, Mr. Seán McKeown, chief executive officer of Kilkenny County Enterprise Board, and Ms Brigid Kirwan, programme specialist with Tipperary Institute of Technology.

I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I ask Mr. McDonnell to make his opening statement, following which we will hear from the Kilkenny County Enterprise Board and take questions from members.

Mr. John McDonnell

We have provided a submission for members. It refers to the Mallow Development Partnership which we think is unique in that it is a local development partnership which comprises Cork County Council, Mallow Town Council, the business community and education, health, community, recreation and State agencies. The partnership has been in operation for approximately two years. I am its chairman and Mr. Sheahan, Mr. Holohan and Mr. Roynane are representatives.

When the partnership was established in 2003, our strategy was to find how we could monitor the progress and development of Mallow in the next ten to 15 years. We worked reasonably successfully at first but were jolted into reality in 2005. Our submission shows that a report from Goodbody Economic Consultants predicted certain population and housing increases in that 15 year period. We asked Goodbody to carry out a revised update of the projections for the next 15 years, and it is this update which jolted us out of our complacency.

The submission notes that the population of Mallow and its environs to a seven mile radius was projected to increase from 23,000 to 36,000 in the 15 year period. However, the statistic that really shook us was in regard to the area within a two mile radius of Mallow. Its current population is 9,700 but will increase in those 15 years to over 20,000, which is a large expansion in a very short time. The two figures suggest there will be a significant increase in population in the wider area but a dramatic increase in the town itself. An increased number of jobs, houses and cars will follow from this increase in population, with attendant difficulties.

That Goodbody report encompassed the regional planning guidelines and other reports commissioned by Cork County Council, all of which suggest that in a relatively short period, the population of Mallow will increase significantly. The major reason for this increase is that Mallow has been designated as one of nine hub towns in the country. The people of Mallow are asking what the spatial strategy and being a hub town will mean for them, which is why we have come before the committee.

As members, particularly Deputy Sherlock, will be aware, Mallow is experiencing a major transition in regard to jobs. There has been a serious decline in agricultural industries — the last major employer is the sugar company, which we hope all will work hard to retain. At the same time, we are told that the population will increase significantly. The question arises as to where jobs will come from and what type of jobs they will be. For example, will traditional jobs go down the Swanee while service and other new jobs are created? Housing is another issue and we must also consider how the town centre, sporting and cultural facilities and the community at large will deal with what will be a major transition. Mycolleagues will elaborate on these issues.

While I am open to contradiction, I am fairly sure that a unique aspect of Mallow's position as a hub town concerns Cork County Council's enlightened undertaking to introduce a special local area plan, copies of which I have in my possession. Cork County Council and Mallow Town Council have made the point that as a hub town, Mallow must be planned for. A special local area plan has been introduced, submissions are being taken and the plan, which relates solely to Mallow's status as a hub town, will be rolled out in the summer of next year. This is why we think it is unique. My colleagues will outline what we want this joint committee to do and we certainly seek assistance and support. We have done much work ourselves by putting Mallow in the unique position of being the only hub town which is ready with a plan for the future and we seek the committee's support in making progress as a hub town. We believe the joint committee and the Government could benefit by examining the situation in this hub town with regard to the spatial strategy and its likely outcome. Given the points I have raised, we suggest that Mallow could be taken as a pilot project for the national spatial strategy and that whatever resources, support or initiatives are required to make progress in that respect would be given to us by the Government. We can assure the joint committee that thus far, we have played our part and will continue to do so at local level. I ask Mr. Rochie Holohan to elaborate on this matter and to outline some other areas that would be of interest to the members.

Chairman

I welcome Mr. Holohan. I also welcome Deputy Ned O'Keeffe, who is a member of the joint committee. I can assure the delegates that while he is a member of the committee, their constituency is well represented.

Mr. Rochie Holohan

One reason for coming before the joint committee is that we believe effective action can be taken at an extremely local level, a belief which resonates with both groups appearing before it today. I want to tell the committee about two lessons I have learned. I come from a local government background and my training and apprenticeship was focused on the county as a unit of policy. When I joined the county enterprise board, I sought county policies on engineering, food and so on and it came as a great shock to me to learn this would not be very effective. We visited towns such as Mitchelstown and Fermoy to speak about our county plans but were met with glazed eyes. When I worked in Charleville, it was made clear to me that while the county was wonderful, interest was centred on Charleville. If that town was to benefit, participation would be forthcoming, but not otherwise. This came as quite a shock to me.

I must pay tribute to a man named NedCrimmins who is no longer with us. He represented Teagasc and was a quietly spoken gentleman. He told me that talking about counties was worthless, which for him was a major statement as he was usually much more polite. We learned that if we go to Mitchelstown and talk about Mitchelstown, the business and general community there will engage with us. While they might agree or disagree with our proposals, they will work with us. Strangely, although we were swamped by plans, when we attempted to take action at a local level we may have lacked the plan we actually needed. Similarly while we were drowning in governmental structures, we did not have the single structure we required in the local area. When that was changed, we felt we could make a start, which had not been the case previously.

The second lesson I learned was from a man named Dick Griffin who led the Society of St. Vincent de Paul in Mallow for many years. He was a great believer in local responses and actions to local problems and took the view that one could achieve much in one's own home town. His goal was to get the public health nurses, gardaí, home assistance and social welfare officers from Mallow into a single room together, as he believed that were this to be done, one could achieve a great deal with the same resources and the same legislation as before. However, it is no exaggeration to state that his efforts were crippled because no two people in the room operated on the same geographical basis. Hence, co-operation was impossible. As Mr. McDonnell has noted, the development partnership includes the health executives, gardaí and school principals. A different type of public administration is in operation when, in a sufficiently small town, neighbourhood or community, one can bring all the different agencies together to discuss a single problem simultaneously. One quickly learns that the issue is not about securing more money or about additional legislation, but is about effective action. We commissioned a report from Goodbody Economic Consultants, an independent body. Its consultant told us that if we wished to make a success of Mallow and to rise to hub status, we would be obliged to get our act together. He meant all of us, in all agencies and in all our plans.

I have one request, which I have discussed with some of the joint committee members. It is for the joint committee members to try to influence people to allow Mallow to emerge as a community in its own right and to induce the various agencies to honour its geographic boundaries in order that I, as an enterprise board executive, the Garda, teachers and social welfare officers would all act on the same geographical basis. In Ireland, we have not organised ourselves for effective action at local level. It would be of enormous significance to us were the members, in their various roles, to support this or even to allow it to take place on a pilot basis. I believe it would be of greater significance than the enactment of better legislation or the provision of additional resources.

Chairman

That was very interesting and I thank Mr. Holohan. I welcome Mr. John Sheahan. I am conscious that Deputy Howlin must leave the meeting at approximately 10.05 a.m.

Mr. John Sheahan

As a continuation of Mr. Holohan's comments, Cork North Enterprise Board covers five areas, namely, Duhallow, Charleville, Mallow, Fermoy and Mitchelstown. We traverse the area each year with our board meetings, after which we meet local groups which is how we get to hear what is important to them and what is pertinent to their area. As Mr. Holohan has noted, they gloss over the general county plan but are extremely keen on the local elements. When it comes to Mallow, we see a vibrant town. One of its attractions is a highly proactive chamber of commerce. We see the Mallow Development Partnership as a pilot plan which should and will work, with support from the right sources. Thereafter, it is planned to roll out the model to the other areas, because we can see a need for it. However, success will depend on the support we receive from central government with regard to the progress of the Mallow Development Partnership. We see a need for jobs, infrastructure, housing, etc., and want to implement a plan that will meet that challenge.

Chairman

Do the delegates wish to discuss the Mallow action plan?

Mr. Sheahan

Yes. Mr. Ronayne might complete the picture.

Mr. Jim Ronayne

When the hub status was announced as part of the new spatial strategy, both Mallow Chamber of Commerce and Cork North Enterprise Board saw this as a great opportunity. We took it on board extremely quickly because we felt we should avail of it. However, we also saw a huge divergence, in that a report produced shortly beforehand by Roger Pymms painted a very different prospect, whereby if the town was not planned and managed, it would possibly end up as a sprawling dormer town, with little or no life in the town centre. We viewed the announcement of hub status as providing a great challenge and opportunity and took it as such. Hence, the chamber of commerce and the enterprise board took a leading role and commissioned Goodbody with our own funds to pull all the reports together to see exactly where we were going.

The report's key recommendations were to establish the Mallow Development Partnership and begin working together. Thankfully, the partnership was established and is working very well under the leadership of the chairman, Mr. McDonnell. The idea was to get the Government, business community and local community working together with an agreed plan and boundary. An agreed boundary is very important because if one gets the geography right, the population figures and projections will be correct. From the chamber of commerce's perspective, the partnership is working very successfully. We seek the committee's support to get the agencies and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment working with the Mallow Development Partnership. Once the agencies and the Department know our aims, they will we hope support the partnership and understand where we are coming from.

We wondered about the aim of the hub status when we first heard about it. Central government should prioritise infrastructure, such as roads and water and sewerage systems, and we seek the committee's support for this. The national spatial strategy aimed to earmark a number of towns that could develop, put the resources in place with local communities and make them work, which is what we are trying to do.

When we updated the Goodbody report this year, we were shocked by the amount of jobs that needed to be created to make Mallow viable. The town relies heavily on agriculture and changes in the sector brought about by the world food markets have led to companies like Dairygold and the sugar companies winding down their local operations. We are trying to replace these jobs and put a strategy in place to change this situation. We have worked with IDA Ireland, Enterprise Ireland and the county enterprise board and we are trying to set up a concerted local strategy in order that we can create local jobs.

The decentralisation programme has been spoken about on many occasions. Mallow was sufficiently lucky to be nominated as the new headquarters of Fáilte Ireland and in this context, decentralisation must kick-start job creation in the town. It would be enormously beneficial to Mallow if decentralisation could be rolled out and we could receive that Government agency, which was promised to us two years ago. We hope the committee will support us in this regard.

Chairman

I know Mallow very well. If one asked any commercial traveller in Ireland what the two best inland towns were, he or she would always answer Mallow and Mullingar. As members are aware, I come from Mullingar. The delegation has the full support of this committee. I welcome Deputy Sherlock to the committee.

Deputy Howlin

I thank the Chairman for obliging me as I am under time constraints. I welcome the delegation. Unfortunately, I will not be here for the discussion with Kilkenny County Enterprise Board. The committee must get to grips with existing local development structures and find out how they are operating on the ground.

The national spatial strategy is one of the most important strategies presented by Government in terms of balancing development, which will continue apace over the next 15 to 20 years based on the delegation's projections and national projections. What has Mallow received to date as a result of its designation as a hub? Has it made any practical or noticeable difference?

I can claim authorship of the document entitled, Better Local Government — A programme for change, which one of my political opponents calls "bitter local government". The aim of that document was to integrate local development with local government. It has worked well in some places and less well in others. What has been the experience of the delegation regarding the integration of local development and local government, particularly the point it made regarding standardised regions for overlapping functions? This is something which we might be forced to come to terms with.

I am impressed by the level of cohesion the delegation has achieved in Mallow, based on its presentation. It might be useful for this committee to appoint a rapporteur to examine the impact of hub status on enterprise and small business to date.

Chairman

That is a good suggestion.

Mr. McDonnell

Mr. Holohan will answer Deputy Howlin's question on local government because he is our expert in this area. I do not wish to be negative but Mallow's status as a hub town has had no effect on the town. This situation is replicated throughout the country.

Chairman

Does this relate to Mallow?

Mr. McDonnell

Yes, that is why we are here today. This is an opportunity for us to see on a pilot basis what hub town status means. Both Mallow and central government would benefit from this because the Government would have an example of what hub town status means. We have all the ingredients for this. Deputy Howlin commented on the Mallow Development Partnership, which we think is unique. We are overwhelmed by the level of commitment demonstrated so far. One of the factors that has made the partnership successful is the involvement of the local authority — the officials and elected members. They have been our best attendees and supporters. While they operate in local government and Mallow Town Council, they also attend our meetings and play an invaluable role in them. We have the structure to analyse hub status and would like to receive the support of this committee. Beyond that, we do not know where we are going.

Mr. Holohan

I can only relate our experience. Ireland has been very well served by county government in terms of the delivery of a considerable number of facilities. However, things have been structured very badly or not at all at the level below county government. Many local politicians and business community leaders believe that much is possible at a local level if the community is engaged with. I have seen many plans at county level that have effectively alienated, rather than engaged with, the local community. This is not due to malice but if I lived in Mitchelstown and spoke about the people there, Mallow would seem like a different world. Likewise, if I lived in Nenagh, Thurles would seem like a different world. Attempting to plan at this aggregate level will only alienate everyone. It is very simple when one is sitting in a room with people. When we bring school principals and gardaí together to discuss alcohol abuse, it seems a very natural, obvious thing to do but we are not structured for this.

We had always collected statistics on a county basis and if one looks across them, one sees one picture but these statistics hide what goes on in individual communities. For example, our school leaving age is quite healthy but there are pockets in the county where it is unhealthy. One can say that the number of police on the beat in the county has increased but this is not much good if there are communities where the number has declined. We began working very effectively with local communities when we got off our county horse and began talking to each of the five areas and getting people, particularly agencies, together. If we could get shared boundaries between public health nurses, social welfare officers, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, home assistance officers, gardaí and teachers, we would achieve far greater value for money at a local level with the resources we have. This will not happen with our current structures.

Deputy Hogan

I also welcome the delegation. I am interested in the structures it has and the model it is proposing for local development. I am very interested in the answer to the last question about the contribution of local government. These are issues the committee will address in framing a report about how we can get the best output from the input of the organisations and systems in a system that will deliver better and more cohesively, which is why I welcome today's presentation. I do not have any questions as I do not wish to delay the meeting.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

I welcome the delegation and its comprehensive presentation. I am pleased my own backyard of Mitchelstown and Fermoy was mentioned, although they were not referred to in the submitted document. I agree that hub status gives recognition to Mallow. It is an important town as it is a local authority divisional town in County Cork, which gives it further status. The Government has recognised Mallow considerably through decentralisation, which we hope to have rolled out by 2007, as the delegates are aware. The northern relief road will be on stream next year. Mallow has been recognised in the Transport 21 policy with a commuter line to Cork. Difficulties have arisen over the past 12 to 18 months, such as the demise of Dairygold in the area. The jury is out on that organisation to determine what it will do because, after four years of action, nothing has really happened.

On the sugar beet industry being at a crossroads, we would like to see it continue but the industry cannot continue at a farm level of €25 per metric tonne. If something better is not put on the table there will be difficulties. The Government is fully committed to the continuance of the sugar industry. The committee should recognise that the 300 jobs in Mallow, 180 full-time and 120 part-time, and many others are very important to the economic fabric of the area. Mallow needs a third level college as it has some of the finest and most modern primary and post-primary educational facilities in the country, all of which were invested in during the past 20 years. It is the gateway to the west from County Cork, which gives it extra status.

There are a number of weaknesses in respect of roads. The national roads, N72 and N73, are in difficulty. One was once the main Dublin-Killarney road, which has been forgotten recently. The other goes from Rosslare to Mallow and Killarney. All of these areas have been successful but I hope that, when the roads programme has been developed for the main arteries, we will be in a position to address the issue of funding for the N72 and N73 to bring them up to status. They are quite poor in terms of quality and safety. Mr. McDonnell has been a part of the hospital programme in Mallow, an area in which the Government has invested.

I hope the Government will continue to invest heavily in Mallow and the north County Cork area. We must share the national cake with various towns. Mullingar is also a hub town and the Chairman's community might be satisfied. Mr. Holohan has said he wishes to have all of the different activities, facilities and organisations from the public sector co-ordinated in a cost effective way, with which no one can disagree. However, it is a long haul in the Irish context.

Chairman

That was a good response to the many issues raised.

Deputy Sherlock

For the record, if I may?

Chairman

We give precedence to committee members. Deputy Lynch may give way to Deputy Sherlock if she so wishes.

Deputy Lynch

I know what Deputy Sherlock will say, namely, after listening to Deputy O'Keeffe, why are the delegates here? I will give way to Deputy Sherlock.

Deputy Sherlock

I welcome the representatives who have come from Mallow, speak for Mallow and state the case, which was well done. In the mid-1990s the town council of Mallow presented its plan for a town renewal scheme concerning the southern part of the town, including housing development and so forth. In later years, the council submitted another plan for a town renewal scheme, with eight areas designated in an underdeveloped part of the town. Now, they are effectively developed, although there was a delay due to the allowances for commercial interests.

It is time to take a step forward from the position of Mallow being a hub town and designate areas. I do not wish to speak a bad word about this case but people are very critical of the town's main centre. Whatever has happened in terms of development in the area, whether it involves betting offices or whatever, it always did so in the centre but does not have the attraction it should.

Chairman

The Hibernian Hotel used to be the central attraction 30 years or more ago. People are very fortunate to have a beautiful church there also.

Deputy Sherlock

There is no doubt about it.

Chairman

Mallow is borne of tradition. It has a great trading past and, with the efforts the delegates are making, there is no reason it cannot be a leading town. The delegates are trying to tease out ideas of spatial strategies and hub towns, which are new to the whole political arena. Are the delegates speaking with other towns with hub status? In County Westmeath, there is a triangle of Athlone, Mullingar and Tullamore. The two county managers have got together with Enterprise Ireland and everyone else to try to work out how to enable people in the midlands to get the maximum benefit. Has Mr. McDonnell discussed the matter with other towns in the same position Mallow finds itself in? How can we progress? We want to assist the delegation. We want this committee to be the conduit to Government in terms of their efforts, which is why the delegates are here this morning.

Mr. McDonnell

The short answer is that we have not. We are the only hub town in County Cork. The nearest are Killarney and Tralee, which form a joint hub town, and the natural enmity between counties Cork and Kerry has kept us apart. Obviously, I am joking in this respect. We have been so concerned with our own situation that we have not done it yet but we would be delighted to share experiences with other hub towns. I am gratified by the Chairman's remarks as he has seen that what we want is to work with the committee and other hub towns in a forward approach.

Chairman

The delegation is pushing an open door with this committee, which has a membership of all political persuasions from Houses of Parliament. To repeat my comments, we want to assist the delegation and be the arm of Government in respect of what the delegates are trying to achieve. Killarney and Tralee are formidable towns and have proven themselves. When the Eurovision Song Contest made a pitch for Millstreet with RTE, many did not take it seriously until they realised Killarney has more hotels and guest houses than the city of Dublin. This is an enormous plus.

The committee could review the delegates' efforts on an annual basis. We can try to bring together more hub towns and hear what each area is doing. The committee went to County Wexford and Cork city and was impressed by the latter's city plan for the coming 20 years. We will next go to County Galway. We are visiting the regions. Taking what the delegates are trying to achieve as an example, we can review it on a yearly basis and determine what we can achieve, as we did for the insurance industry and the groceries order trawl. We are ultimately trying to reach the same end. As far as I am concerned, we are all here to do whatever we can to assist the delegates.

Senator Bradford

I welcome my friends from Mallow. My colleagues have summed up the genesis of this report. I concur strongly with Deputy Howlin's request that the committee could appoint a rapporteur to examine the issue of hub towns. The Chairman is asking the delegation what is being done at local level. Projects at local level in the Mallow area speak for themselves but the hub town status and the spatial strategy must be implemented nationally. This was announced with a fanfare of trumpets some years ago.

If we are to be blunt, it is difficult to see the difference made by granting towns and smaller cities gateway status. The committee must examine the impact of the hub status. Is there a national plan to implement the strategy? I hope the committee will be proactive in this regard and the delegation from Mallow is asking what the committee can do. In conjunction with the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Environment and Local Government, this committee should demand the implementation of the work planned under the national spatial strategy. It has not happened to date and requires urgent and detailed attention. An investigation is needed into the why the strategy was not implemented and how it can make progress. This is the political project at Oireachtas level.

I concur with the points raised by Deputies Sherlock and O'Keeffe. I have raised the issue of a third level facility in Mallow with every Minister with responsibility for education. Ten or 12 years ago, regional colleges were considered favourably but now the concept of third level has changed and outreach programmes are preferred to major campuses.

Chairman

Does the Senator have a question for the delegation?

Senator Bradford

The delegation has stated it wants action from the committee and the Government. Implementing the national spatial strategy is important and this committee must consider how the hub town and gateway project can be implemented. I hope the committee takes note of Deputy Howlin's suggestion.

Chairman

I fully agree.

Senator Bradford

I ask the committee to convey our disappointment to the NRA and the Department of Transport that major routes referred to by Deputy Ned O'Keeffe, the Mallow-Mitchelstown route, N73, and the Mallow-Fermoy route, N72, carrying commercial and commuter traffic stand alone as two routes not mentioned in a €34 billion plan. The committee should note this and request the Minister for Transport and the NRA to consider the matter. The Chairman knows the roads are vital to the development of the north Cork region. These two roads are ignored and stand out like a sore thumb.

Chairman

I used to drive the road with a six volt battery many years ago.

Senator Bradford

It has not got better since.

Senator Coghlan

I wish to be associated with the welcome to the Mallow delegation. I identify with what Mr. McDonnell stated on hub town status and there is agreement on this. I come from Killarney, where hub town status has meant nothing. I wish it did and hope we can move on in order that it means something.

Regarding Senator Bradford's point, I often travel to Dublin through Mallow but the road from Mallow to Mitchelstown is dangerous with heavy traffic. The road is winding and narrow and I was not aware it does not feature, along with the Mallow-Fermoy road, in the transport plan. These are national secondary roads and this matter must be a priority. This is matter for the NRA and we must give it any assistance we can as the roads are vital.

Chairman

We will pass the Senator's views on to the Joint Committee on Environment and Local Government. The leader must arrive with the Kilkenny delegation and he must attend the Order of Business at 10.30 a.m.

Senator Coghlan

All of us must attend the Order of Business at 10.30 a.m.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

No national secondary roads have been addressed in the transport plan.

Senator Bradford

That is incorrect.

Chairman

Visiting members must allow committee members to make clarifications.

Senator Bradford

Can I clarify that is an incorrect statement?

Chairman

The Senator will appreciate the time constraints. I wish to facilitate the Senator's leader in welcoming the delegation from Kilkenny County Enterprise Board.

Ms Mary McEvoy

I thank the Chairman and members for inviting us. We are here to relate a good news story of local development in Kilkenny and provide an example for other towns in Ireland. I am joined by Mr. Seán McKeown, chief executive officer of Kilkenny County Enterprise Board, and Ms Brigid Kirwan, Tipperary Institute, assigned to formally and objectively document the model in order that it may be rolled out for other towns.

The local project with which I am involved is based in Castlecomer, County Kilkenny. In December 2002 the main employer, Comerama factory, shut down and 170 jobs were lost in a town with a population of 2,000. A local action group contacted the Tánaiste, then Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, for assistance. Rather than assigning a task force, she suggested appointing a full-time business executive to stimulate business growth. The appointment was to be funded by Enterprise Ireland and FÁS and the employer was the Kilkenny County Enterprise Board.

I became the business development executive in July 2003, initially for one year but the role continued for a second year. I was based in the town and worked with a local action group. We set up an advisory forum, chaired by the county manager, Mr. Michael Malone. This was effective as his political influence ensured attendance by all other members. Some 12 members of the forum represented all inter-agency bodies and local bodies that had responsibility for the town. The forum met once per quarter and in the meantime I had full access to members to make progress.

Our three objectives were to stimulate business development to replace the lost jobs, to retrain staff, and to promote Castlecomer as a place to live, visit and work. One of the main issues I faced was the difficult profile of those who had lost their jobs. Most were low-skilled, had left school early and had worked at Comerama for 30 years. It was difficult to find employment for them. There was a negative feeling in the town after the major impact of the job losses. Coal mining was shut down some time previously so this was the second major blow in terms of employment. Castlecomer is a small town, it is not a hub and is not on the radar of IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland. Castlecomer would not be a candidate if a company approached these agencies.

At the end of the first year we had replaced the factory with that of a Monaghan company, IJM Timber Engineering Limited. It was looking for a location in the south east and hopes to employ 150 people in the next three years. While that is positive news, the major success is the change in attitude of the people in the town. They are extremely positive and empowered and, as a result, small businesses started and existing businesses expanded. Developers with options on sites finally built a business park and an enterprise centre was expanded. A tourism plan was developed and now the demesne project in Castlecomer is the biggest tourism development project in County Kilkenny. As well as replacing jobs, we put Castlecomer and north Kilkenny on the map. This was a positive experience.

One of the key elements that led to the success of the project was the sense of urgency and crisis in the town. I emphasised to everyone I met that they would have one year during which all focus and attention would be on them, when they could make things happen and it was the time to act if they had an idea, project or business because I would be there full-time to assist. I spent a great deal of time on the publicity for the project, which was significant in changing to a positive attitude the previously negative opinion of Castlecomer held by people in County Kilkenny and surrounding counties. A recent purchaser of a unit in the business park stated that after searching throughout the south east, Castlecomer was chosen because it had received positive coverage in the media.

All of us who participated in the Castlecomer project felt it was special. All of the members of the committee, who had previously worked together on other committees, felt what was done by the forum in Castlecomer was significant. The forum finished after two years because the work was complete. We felt it would be important to capture some of what we had done and develop it into a model that other towns could use. Mr. McKeown of the enterprise board gave Tipperary Institute an assignment to research it in more detail, and to interview all of the participants in the community and forum members to establish if particular characteristics could be replicated if a similar situation occurred elsewhere. We present our model to the committee as a success. The short period of time it took to achieve that success was a surprise to many of us involved. Ms Brigid Kirwan will present information to the committee to indicate that when the model is produced we can pass it on to other communities.

Mr. Seán McKeown

I thank the Chairman and the committee for the opportunity to come before it today. One of the key problems encountered by the business development executive in Castlecomer, of which Ms McEvoy is a member, was acquiring funding to resource the model. It was extremely difficult to do so as a central fund from which we could call upon was not in place. We had to approach a number of agencies to resource the project on a shoestring budget. Ms McEvoy referred to the report commissioned from Tipperary Institute. The final version is not yet complete and we expect it within two or three weeks. The initial findings are quite positive.

In the meantime we decided to resource Ms McEvoy's position on a part-time basis in an interesting model in another town, Callan. We are weaning Ms McEvoy away from Castlecomer and trying to build up capacity in Callan, which is scheduled by the local authority. Will the committee support the case for a central fund housed within the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment that communities could access? Obviously, some criteria would be involved. I hope the report being prepared for us will inform on those criteria. If one message was sent today, it should be that this committee would open the door to that central fund being put in place.

Chairman

Mr. McKeown and Ms McEvoy have names famous in other fields. Ms Kirwan will now address the committee.

Ms Brigid Kirwan

I thank the committee for this opportunity. Tipperary Institute was recently asked to compile a report on this model and we began work in September. Our methodology is to speak with all of the people involved in the project from the beginning. We came to it neutral and cold, which was effective because we did not have any assumed expectations of whether it was a good model. Having completed interviews with participants on the forum and in the community, and professionals working in the community it seems the model would work. The model reflects the matter referred to by Mr. Holohan, which is the meaning of "local" when one translates development to local level. How does one get people in a local area with initiatives to interact with agencies in an effective way and how can agencies effectively interact with communities? Ms McEvoy mentioned that many communities have entrepreneurs, albeit micro-entrepreneurs, and a problem faced in enterprise development in local areas is how to facilitate them.

The model developed in Castlecomer has three elements, namely, the community enabling itself to create an action plan, bringing together agencies that have resources and involvement of the business development executive, on which Mr. McKeown spoke. By resources I mean enabling resources in particular, such as the ability to remove log-jams. Much of the success of this project is down to the removal of barriers, many of which are intangible. Such enabling has been critical to the project. The role of the business development executive was as an interface between the community's action plans and the agencies' needs, requirements and systems.

Each of the model's three elements is significant in its own right. It appears from the research to date that the community or business development executive on its own, or the agencies on their own would not be sufficient, but the three together will work. Mr. McKeown spoke about a model that could potentially work for scheduled towns, and this model could work elsewhere. It is possible to offer this to scheduled towns or groups of towns in areas that could benefit from it, where the community can be challenged to present an enterprise action plan which could then be financed. The issue of how many towns can benefit from this is another day's work. As Mr. McKeown stated, it is intended that the research will be complete within a couple of weeks and a full report will then be available. I apologise that we do not have more information to give but it would be inappropriate to discuss it further without having conducted interviews with all of the people involved.

Chairman

The committee will be anxious to have a copy of the report. Ms Kirwan can send it to the clerk who will pass it on to the members.

Deputy Hogan

I thank the Chairman and the committee for meeting with the people involved in local development through the county enterprise board in Kilkenny. As Ms McEvoy stated, this is a good news story. Much of the activity that has taken place would not have done so without this model for development at local level. An enormous amount has been achieved in a short period of time in Castlecomer. That model, as distilled by Tipperary Institute, should be discussed and adopted by the committee as one that can be transferred to communities suffering from the same employment and business development crisis that Castlecomer did some years ago. The presentation included an impressive list of achievements. Ms McEvoy did not get an opportunity to read out all of them. Any community that has such experience and achievements in a short period of time is important.

We can take on board the suggestion for a central fund for local development business executives. We have never had as many directors for local development in local government and I do not see a sufficient level of co-ordination. What changes do the delegations recommend to the committee to ensure better co-ordination of activities within local government? Do bothdelegations have a view on this?

Mr. McKeown

I referred to the continuation of Ms McEvoy's role in Callan. We recognised early on that we would not get another inter-agency forum because Callan did not have a crisis situation. It is a more pro-active approach. In a nutshell, we are attempting to bring meaning to local area plans, in this case the development plan for Callan as prescribed by the local authority. Ms McEvoy's role in the next 12 months will be to try to engage the local community and bring meaning to the process. While I do not work in local government, it has been my experience that often development plans are not active. They are in place from the point of view of development control and physical planning, rather than being a plan for development as such.

In Callan we have used a sub-committee of the county development board, which has inter-agency representation. It does not have the same power and weight as the inter-agency forum in Castlecomer and it is too early to say whether the model will work. However, that is what we decided upon. We decided to use the vehicle of the county development board, the structure of which is already in place, to see if that can become the inter-agency forum going forward. It is too early to know whether it will be effective, but perhaps we will be able to enlighten the committee on that in a year's time.

Deputy Nolan

I welcome the delegation and commend it on the fine work it has done in Castlecomer. Ms McEvoy successfully brought about a very positive outcome for the workers. The people of Castlecomer were very fortunate in the board's choice of business development executive. I have spoken to people from all walks of life in Castlecomer, who were enthused by the enthusiasm of Ms McEvoy.

The issue now is to build on the experience of what happened in Castlecomer. I look forward to seeing the model that the board will unveil, which may prove to be useful to other towns. A number of towns, of a similar size to Castlecomer, have suffered during the past 20 years. I am a supporter of county enterprise boards, which have done a lot in recent years to bring a focus to various communities. Does Mr. McKeown believe that county enterprise boards should employ an assistant chief executive who would take on the role of a business development executive for particular towns? I believe that would fit neatly into the workload and remit of county enterprise boards. Perhaps that is something Mr. McKeown and his association of county enterprise board executive officers could take on board? My knowledge of county enterprise boards suggests that such an extension would fit neatly in with Mr. McKeown's organisation.

Mr. McKeown

Ms McEvoy was employed at assistant chief executive officer level within the county enterprise board structure, but she was not a mainstream member of staff. If we were to take the route suggested by the Deputy, I suggest that we would need a worker who is actively engaged with the community and not a mainstream person who is also involved in other administrative tasks. The project is such that it requires a person to give his or her full dedication to the area. I agree that we were very fortunate, with the funding we had in place, to find someone with the characteristics and skills of Ms McEvoy. It is not just a position, but a particular type of person, that makes this work.

The central fund would have to look at the level of funding that would be required to attract people of the highest calibre. While the fund is a national allocation, the county enterprise board structure is the mechanism whereby local communities access that funding. We believe the boards should have a management, administrative, functional support and resource role as backup to the position of business development officer.

Deputy McGuinness

I join the Chairman in welcoming the various groups here today. I am particularly aware of the work of Ms McEvoy and Mr. McKeown. I was a member of the Kilkenny County Enterprise Board from its establishment until the ending of the dual mandate. The effect that Ms McEvoy and her team has had on Castlecomer is significant. I welcome the fact that this committee has taken the time to listen to various opinions and to the proposal that the model that was put in place in Castlecomer could work elsewhere.

I think there was something else happening that was unique to Kilkenny. Would it be fair to say there was a desire among many of the high-rollers, those who held positions, that something should happen in Castlecomer, that they wanted to see the project succeed? It appears that the enterprise board is an excellent model to be used throughout the country for the roll-out of this type of role and project. However, my understanding of Ms McEvoy's role is that there was a certain amount of independence attached to it, which allowed her to engage in a way that was different to what would be the norm with the main players on the ground. That is very significant. While the funding should be made available and the county enterprise board is the model to use, a certain level of independence should be maintained. The independent element has to be there. The likes of Ms McEvoy has to have freedom to get over some of the in-built obstacles in communities in order to move on. That is important in the context of the funds.

We should also focus on the other funding made available. Various projects were funded by different Departments but seemed to be directed, in a focused way, on Castlecomer. This amounted to a major Government investment in an area that was hit by the loss of so many jobs. Castlecomer, I think it is fair to say, is an area that had a lot of baggage from the past, in the context of trade unionism and the closure of the coal mines. There was a mental hang-up about being a failure as a town because so many jobs were lost during the years. That was overcome by the fact that so much money was focused, in a different way, on new developments in society, for example, the provision of crèches, the empowerment of local community groups, the extension of family resource centres and so forth. Castlecomer town itself and the surrounding area benefited greatly from funding of one kind or another, emanating from different Departments.

I support, generally, what has been said but there is a need to have a clearer picture of exactly what happened on the ground. The success was not simply down to funding. The community had a desire to succeed and to dig itself out of a rut that was created by past experiences with job losses and so on. Perhaps Ms McEvoy or Mr. McKeown would comment on that aspect of the picture. If this model is to succeed elsewhere, there is a need to understand it fully. Only then will we have an understanding of what level of funding or focused spending is needed by Government and what level of funding is needed for county enterprise boards and for appointing people like Ms McEvoy. There is also a need to examine the length of time that a person such as Ms McEvoy would be employed. Sometimes the cut-off point can be a little too early and time should be allowed for a type of hand-holding exercise to ensure a smooth transition. I am pleased to see Ms McEvoy is involved with the enterprise board working in Callan.

Chairman

The convenor, Ms McEvoy, wants to speak in advance of the next Deputy.

Ms McEvoy

I concur with most of the comments made by Deputy McGuinness. It is important that I am not seen to be associated with any one agency. The communities in Callan and Castlecomer believe I am their representative and a conduit to the relevant agencies. I regard the 12 members of the forum, who come from various bodies and whom I call the 12 apostles, as my employers. The membership's broad range was useful in ensuring that the forum was not associated with one agency. However, the enterprise board was critical in terms of the advice it gave on direct involvement in enterprise and business. Deputy McGuinness is correct that a role such as mine has to be independent and located in the community. Others also felt this to be important.

Deputy Callanan

I concur with Mr. Holohan's remark that people can achieve a lot by sitting down and working together. The issues raised by the delegation from County Kilkenny remind me of the closure of three factories in Ballinasloe.

Chairman

Is the Deputy trying to entice Ms McEvoy to Ballinasloe? If the money is right, come on down.

Deputy Callanan

The matters discussed by Ms McEvoy in terms of jobs, training low skilled workers and promoting towns resemble the challenges we face in Ballinasloe and which we hope to resolve sooner rather than later. It is vital that a person with a role similar to Ms McEvoy's is available to the town. Ballinasloe lacks the vital cog of someone who can work full-time to promote various agencies and co-ordinate a strategy. I would like to hear Ms McEvoy's opinion of that issue.

Ms McEvoy

As Ms Kirwan stated, it is not a question of a task force which comes to town but of someone who is on the ground and available to people. That is a core element because, while I consider my role to be relatively simple in that I merely pick up the telephone and speak to the appropriate people, locals may not have the confidence to do so and cannot individually seek support from the same agency. I focus matters by making contact with agencies only when necessary and seeking help that I know can be delivered. Experience and knowledge helps to achieve these ends. Many smaller rural communities and towns fear taking this approach.

In the coming year, during which I will work part-time, I intend to develop linkages in order that the relevant locals build confidence and will have contacts with the agencies. Mr. McKeown established connections by appointing local members to the sub-committee of the county development board. I cannot continue in this post forever but must move on. This model is innovative in having a person on the ground who can manage rapidly changing situations, politics and publicity.

Chairman

Was attracting IJM the most important element of Ms McEvoy's strategy? Did success revolve around that organisation's involvement?

Ms McEvoy

In a sense, timing and luck were central to our success in that matter. Enterprise Ireland did not have Castlecomer on its radar but had recently attended an advisory forum meeting, at which I reminded it about the town. While I did not have access to information about whether IJM was interested in the south east, Enterprise Ireland was able to direct the company to me.

That factory employs only a handful of the people who lost their jobs. The most important results of its opening has been the empowerment of townspeople and the belief that they can continue these efforts by themselves. Smaller business successes are more likely to withstand the test of time. In terms of employment, I see bright futures for some new business start-ups. With regard to Callan, we are not attempting to attract any large employers but are developing local enterprise. I cannot always know whether companies are interested in coming to the area but I can inform other agencies on our merits. The opening of the factory was newsworthy but the reasons for that tell a wider story in terms of the overall development of the town.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

I welcome the delegation from County Kilkenny which is known about in my region in terms of hurling and, in the past, coal mining. We seldom hear good news stories such as the one we heard from the delegation.

It is unique that the chief executives of two enterprise boards are in attendance this morning. I compliment them on the work they do. I know more about the North Cork County Enterprise Board than about matters pertaining to County Kilkenny. The former was established in 1989 and since then has done an excellent job in what were often difficult circumstances. The chief executives are also due credit for their efforts.

I want to learn more about the Tipperary Institute because the issue of a third level institution for Mallow was raised. What is the Tipperary Institute doing with regard to the Castlecomer project?

Ms Kirwan

Before commenting on the Tipperary Institute, I concur with Ms McEvoy on the question of whether IJM was a critical success factor. The research did not suggest that to be the case. People who were involved with the project claimed that IJM represented the icing on the cake but that other efforts were more important. In the context of the spatial strategy, attracting certain types of business to towns such as Castlecomer is important.

I work in the rural development department of the Tipperary Institute and I am interested in the area of local development, including planning, community involvement and social inclusion. The institute comprises the departments of business development, information technology and rural development. While it has been described in a number of different ways, most people consider it a third level college with a development role.

We are involved with Castlecomer not only to teach but also to become involved with communities, organisations and business in the regions served by Tipperary Institute, which I hope include counties Kilkenny and Cork. Our role is to interact with enterprise boards, community organisations and business so as to facilitate their own development, which in turn will have an impact on the entire region.

The institute has two campuses, in Thurles and Clonmel, respectively. We are in the business of outreach, that is, delivering the services needed by our surrounding communities and region. In addition to teaching, we want to build involvement with people and address real issues.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

How old is the institute?

Ms Kirwan

It was established six years ago and has 700 registered students. Employees of the institute have a 60:40 remit, in that they allocate 40% of their time to work outside the institute.

Deputy Hogan

What is the employment status of the chief executives of enterprise boards? Are they permanent and pensionable or temporary?

Mr. McKeown

While I can only speak to my own circumstances, we are on a fixed-term contract.

Deputy Hogan

How long is the fixed term?

Mr. McKeown

It will expire at the end of next year, with the completion of the current national development plan.

Deputy Hogan

Is the term two or three years long?

Mr. McKeown

It currently parallels the national development plan, although the Minister said he would make funding available for the continuation of the boards until 2006. I assume that will have a bearing on the contract situation.

Deputy Hogan

I ask because it is difficult for chief executives to plan their careers if they are in temporary limbos. We should raise that issue with the Department.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

There has been no mention of enterprise leaders and their involvement in communities and enterprise boards. North County Cork has such a leader in Ballyhoura but it was not mentioned, nor was the issue raised in terms of County Kilkenny. What support is provided by the Leader programme for these projects?

Mr. McKeown

We have a good working relationship with the Leader programme in County Kilkenny. We share offices and have operating agreements on the type of projects and programmes in which we get involved. Therefore, there is a good formal and informal relationship.

Mr. Holohan

I wish to say a few things but do not want to overstep the mark. The acknowledgement of Castlecomer and Callan as individual areas by putting in an executive tapped into the vibrancy of the areas and reflected the resonance between the two models. It is a practical solution. As chief executive of Cork North Enterprise Board, I am responsible for the Mitchelstown area. The population of Mitchelstown makes up approximately one seventh of my total area and it is entitled to one seventh of my services but the people there tell me that one seventh of my services is not adequate. They need somebody they can identify with and relate to. Our experience shows that things we do at county level can alienate the vibrancy in Ballinasloe, whereas many people in Ballinasloe will give the shirt off their back and work morning, noon and night to see their town thrive. Instead of harnessing that vibrancy we alienate it by insisting on county structures and nothing lower. In north Cork, and I understand it is similar in Callan and Castlecomer, there was an abundance of plans, agencies and executives — myself included — county development boards, Leader groups and ADM groups. There were also the county council and health boards but they never sat in a room together. They were actively alienating the vibrancy of local community drive. We need to be conscious of this.

We have stopped operating as a county enterprise board and started operating as five areas. I have learned today that executives are needed for those areas. Our Leader programme groups are too big, as are our county enterprise boards and all other agencies. The country is run with a minimum level of county structures. The committee has heard this morning that there is a better way to harness local potential.

Chairman

Cork has seven times the population of Kilkenny. That is a major problem for Cork but the distance from Castlecomer to Callan is small.

On behalf of the committee, I thank both organisations for making the journey from Mallow and Kilkenny to be with us this morning. The journey from Mallow is particularly long and I appreciate the early hour at which the delegates must have arisen. The news from Kilkenny is positive and enlightening for this committee. We will see what we can do to assist. The contributions have been important for our deliberations. It is important to show what can be achieved at local level in the area of enterprise.

I congratulate the delegations for their presentations and hope this is only the start of their communication with this committee. For the remaining lifetime of the Government our door is open. The members of the committee do not divide on party lines but concentrate on the issues and try to address them in the best interests of the job. That is the spirit in which Deputies Howlin and Hogan, with the assistance of Deputies Ned O'Keeffe and Nolan earlier, asked the delegations to attend today.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.55 a.m. sine die.