I welcome Deputy Penrose who I know will afford me equal time during the meeting.
Fair Trade: Presentation.
I am delighted to be here with my colleague, Deputy Cassidy, who is Chairman of the Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business. I am Chairman of the Joint Committee on Social and Family Affairs and together with Deputy Cassidy we are initiating this joint meeting of both committees.
We are now awaiting the delegation from the Fair Trade group. As members are aware, there is only one item of business on the agenda, which is a presentation on fair trade issues by the Mullingar Fair Trade Steering Group. I have great pleasure in welcoming my constituency colleague and Co-Chairman, Deputy Cassidy. This is the second such meeting of both joint committees. At Deputy Cassidy's request, and to facilitate the meeting of his committee that has just concluded, this joint meeting was postponed from the previously announced starting time of 3 p.m. Although I am sitting in the Chair, Deputy Cassidy will obviously contribute actively to the meeting, as Co-Chairman.
As we now have a quorum we will proceed. Will members please ensure that their mobile phones are switched off?
The joint committees went into private session at 3.43 p.m. and resumed in public session at 3.45 p.m.
I wish to introduce to the delegation my Oireachtas colleague, Deputy Cassidy, who is Chairman of the Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business.
I am pleased to welcome Ms Lesley Whiteside, chairperson of the Mullingar Fair Trade steering group, the Rev. Robert Whiteside, Councillor Ruth Illingworth and Ms Clodagh Ryan, also representing the steering group. You are all welcome, both old friends and new acquaintances. I also welcome Deputy Paul McGrath to the committee.
When some of the delegation members appeared before us last year they bore the far more colourful description of parishioners and friends of the Church of Ireland parish of All Saints, Mullingar. That was the last title but the current title is inclusive and punchy. Your chairperson's submission of 9 March has been circulated with the agenda.
This is a follow-up meeting as agreed at the first such meeting held last May. Both Deputy Cassidy and I represent the constituency in which the steering group is based. We look forward to a most interesting presentation. We had hoped to have the meeting earlier in March during Fair Trade fortnight but the imperatives of the democratic system intervened. The start of Holy Week is perhaps not an inappropriate substitute.
Hear, hear.
I apologise for the postponement of the start of the meeting from 3 p.m. to 3.30 p.m., which I know has inconvenienced most of you. However, another committee meeting had to be slotted in at short notice, hence the postponement. There was also an another important matter that intervened at the last moment.
Before calling on the delegation to make the presentation, I must utter the customary few words that I am advised to say at the start of all such sessions. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses, or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members who wish to make a declaration about any matter being discussed may do so now or at the beginning of their contribution. Members are also reminded that if there is a possibility of there being a conflict of interest, they should also make a declaration of interest either now or at the start of their contribution. I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. While it is generally accepted that a witness would have qualified privilege, the committee is not in a position to guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it.
Like my colleague, Deputy Penrose I welcome Deputy Paul McGrath, our colleague from County Westmeath. I also welcome back once again the representatives from the Mullingar Fair Trade Group to assist us in our deliberations and to update us on what has happened in the past 12 months.
On behalf of the Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business, of which I am Chairman, I compliment the Mullingar Fair Trade Group on the work it has carried out to date. We have come a long way from the group's launch in Mullingar early last year. It is nice to see the group's representatives here today enhancing and promoting the cause in which they, quite rightly, believe so strongly. The organisation has brought the issue of fair trade to the forefront. For our part, we are endeavouring to increase the recognition of the FAIRTRADE symbol at every opportunity both here in the Houses of the Oireachtas and through Departments.
The Joint Services Committee that looks after the affairs of Leinster House, including the catering facilities, has assured us that fair trade coffee and tea is available and is advertised prominently on all menus in Leinster House. This fact is highlighted wherever it can be promoted.
The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment has brought the matter to the attention of its two private catering companies. Responses are awaited from the State bodies and the Clerk informs me that this will happen in the near future.
I welcome the delegation wholeheartedly. It is an unusual event to have the chairpersons and members of both joint committees — hardworking Members of the Dáil and Seanad — joining forces to be briefed and updated on what progress the Mullingar Fair Trade Grouphas made over the past 12 months. I am delighted to be in a position to welcome the group's representatives back here today.
I call Mrs Whiteside to make the presentation.
Mrs. Lesley Whiteside
I thank both Chairmen. We are delighted to be back before the committees. As Deputy Penrose pointed out, we have constituted ourselves formally. Last year we had no committee and we were only a group of concerned people. The committees asked us to formalise ourselves as a cross-community group. We have done that and we have managed to find ourselves a council representative in RuthIllingworth. We have spread the word well throughout the religious community because we were acutely aware that it looked very much like a Church of Ireland enterprise but that is no longer the case.
The committees have received our submission, which is in the form of an audit showing the progress in making Mullingar a fair trade town and the difficulties that remain. This is a reasonably formal group. We only meet when there is something to plan for and we do not meet for the sake of meeting. We are lucky to have Reverend Stephen Lockington, who is a recently arrived Presbyterian minister, as a member. The Presbyterian Church had a week of openings before Christmas during which FAIRTRADE tea and coffee were served. It is located in the centre of town and that was a wonderful thing to do. Mr. Joe Lynam is also a member. He is a school representative who is well-known among children and their parents in Mullingar and he has worked hard. We are spreading the word fairly well. Ms Illingworth will comment on her role on the local council and what she has managed to achieve.
Ms Ruth Illingworth
I thank the committee members for giving us the opportunity to address them. Last summer I was elected to Mullingar Town Council and, at the request of the Mullingar Fair Trade Steering Group, which had contacted me to give me more information on what it is seeking to achieve, I tabled a motion at the November 2004 meeting of the town council, which was unanimously supported, asking it to support the aims of the steering group. My next step is to liaise with Councillor Pat McLoughlin, who is a member of Westmeath County Council and the Mullingar area committee of the council, with a view to having a resolution passed within the next month or two. Hopefully, the county council will follow the example of Mullingar Town Council and commit to supporting the fair trade group and its aims.
Both councils overlap in that four town council members, including the cathaoirleach, are also members of the county council. The county council has more powers than the town council and, therefore, if we get it on board, as I believe we can, in the next few months, we could move on a number of the issues outlined in the submission such as the allocation of fair trade responsibilities to a specific member of staff or committee of the county council, with particular regard to the Mullingar area. The county council, rather than the town council, will have responsibility for erecting street signs declaring Mullingar a fair trade town.
Both councils host civic receptions from time to time. Alcoholic drinks rather than tea or coffee were available at the last reception but fair trade wine will be available shortly. Hopefully, this will be served at the next civic reception hosted by the town councils.
Are minerals available?
Ms Illingworth
That will be next step.
Reverend Robert Whiteside
FAIRTRADE has extremely good passion fruit juice, which we have promoted as hard as we can. Alas, it is not yet available in Mullingar.
Ms Ilingworth
Hopefully, by using fair trade products as much as they can, county council and town council members will set an example by purchasing such products in shops in Mullingar and encouraging businesses in the town to stock such products.
Mrs. Whiteside
We have had reasonable success persuading retail outlets to stock a larger selection of FAIRTRADE products. One of the problems is that where such outlets belong to a chain, policy is dictated by head office. However, we suspect that this is used as an excuse from time to time. The small local healthfood store is the most enthusiastic. It has a wonderful display during fair trade fortnight and it is supportive.
There is a peculiarity whereby shops that stock fair trade products and coffee shops that sell FAIRTRADE products, do not want to display the logo. We have not cracked that because we do not understand it. They say "Thank you very much, we will put that in the window straight away". The next time one enters, however, there is no sign of it.
We had a flagship business, a motor sales office, which had agreed to stock FAIRTRADE tea and coffee but its policy was retracted by its head office, which stated it used a particular coffee machine and a particular brand of coffee, which is not FAIRTRADE coffee. That is the type of problem one encounters. We have not given up but we have not cracked this yet.
We have contacts with the Garda at the highest level, the Army barracks and bodies such as Midland Tourism and the fair trade fortnight is productive. We received positive media coverage and when we can involve local representatives, we receive much better media coverage than if we were doing something on our own.
Last year, the committees asked us to undertake a schools campaign on fair trade. We have done our best but, given the lack of a dedicated schools officer, what we have done is limited. I am happy that a schools officer has been appointed for next year. It will be Reverend Robert Whiteside, who retires from his current job in the summer. People do not want to go in front of classes to talk. If one is not experienced in doing so, it is a pretty scary business. Our committee operates on the basis that people do what they are comfortable with and nobody is forced into doing something with which he orshe is not comfortable. Although we had a great response to our November coffee morning from the schools, we have not made as much progress as we would like. As our school's representative has been ill and confined to quarters for about two months, progress is slower. We are determined to look at the issue of a FAIRTRADE vending machine. We know of a secondary school in Dublin that has taken out all its other vending machines and now only has FAIRTRADE vending machines.
Fair trade fortnight has been good and has opened up some interesting possibilities. Ms Clodagh Ryan will speak on that subject because she is more involved than any of us.
Ms Clodagh Ryan
I thank Deputies Cassidy and Penrose for their invitation. I have been a member of the steering group since its inception last September. At the end of fair trade fortnight I was invited to speak to a group of ladies in the Mullingar women's community development project to mark International Women's Day. I was quite taken aback to find 150 at the meeting, all different nationalities and many from developing countries. I briefly introduced them to the concept of fair trade. The meeting was a very positive experience. The subject generated a great deal of interest and discussion and it will create many opportunities to expand the work of our group in Mullingar. We will watch that space.
Well done.
Reverend Robert Whiteside
I wish to add a little tail piece. When we appeared before the committee last May, it very kindly agreed to do certain things for us. Deputy Cassidy referred to the catering outlets in Leinster House. On my way to the meeting I called in to the coffee dock and I was delighted to see a FAIRTRADE tea packet. The lady in the coffee dock confirmed that all the coffee used is FAIRTRADE, except for the instant coffee. That is real progress for which I thank the committee.
The other issue we addressed was trade justice. It is extremely important that we do not lose sight of that issue. Deputies and Senators will be aware that the British Presidency of the European Union has made combating world poverty a major issue. It has made a commitment during its presidency of the G8 this year to making real progress towards the millennium goals of a reduction in world poverty. Reform of the world trade rules is a vital part of this plan to give priority to developing countries. We highlighted this issue at the last meeting. It is slightly off the point of Fairtrade in that those of us down the country in Mullingar and other places cannot make progress on that issue but this committee can. We urge the members of the committee to influence Government policy and to argue that Ireland is not happy with the situation. Priority must be given to the developing countries of the world if the balance of poverty in the world is to be shifted. It is one of the most vital issues of the 21st century that this balance is shifted and quickly.
: I will give a progress report at this stage. The meeting with the delegation last May energised all of us. I have some but not all positive news to report in this regard. The disappointing news is that the committee made a formal approach to Deputy Coughlan when she was Minister for Social and Family Affairs but she was firm in her position that the choice of food being used in her Department was a matter for the voluntary committees of staff in different locations and was not something in respect of which she would set down conditions. She added that the committees would solicit views of staff from time to time in respect of the service and any issues arising would be discussed with the caterer. I replied to her letter and requested her to convey the views of this committee — which I advised were shared by the Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business. Following his appointment I wrote in like manner to the Minister, Deputy Brennan last October. He responded last week as follows:
As previously outlined, my Department is not directly involved in the running of canteen facilities therefore I do not set down conditions in relation to the type of food to be provided by the service providers which are engaged by the catering committees nor would I consider it appropriate to do so.
It would be un-PC.
I regard it as most regrettable that he felt unable even to commit himself to conveying our views, which is what I asked, to the catering committees at a time when views on salt and sugar and natural ingredients are widely voiced in the interests of the health of the economy or the health of the end user. Happily, the Joint Committee on House Services has been more amenable to our representations. The clerk has been in ongoing correspondence with that committee since our last meeting. I am delighted to confirm that following the representations the joint committee now uses only FAIRTRADE coffee in the Leinster House outlets and the proportion of FAIRTRADE tea being served has increased in the course of the past year.
I can report good news in respect of the State bodies under the aegis of the Department of Social and Family Affairs. One body does not have independent catering facilities but avails itself of whatever facilities are available in the location in which it meets. One body has confirmed that it uses both FAIRTRADE tea and coffee products while another has undertaken to source FAIRTRADE tea and to take our views into consideration when the current coffee dispensing machines, which cannot use FAIRTRADE coffee, come to be replaced.
To summarise, progress has been somewhat less than we had hoped for but quite meaningful in the interim.
I congratulate the delegation on its work which was started by the local Church of Ireland. We in Ireland are one of the few western European countries that did not colonise other countries. Having been a colony we can empathise with the situation in Third World countries that are trying to organise fair trade. I assure the delegation that both committees will be very anxious to assist in every possible way to ensure that those in the Third World are given a fair crack of the whip.
It is important to develop the FAIRTRADE brand. The delegation stated that it asked shopkeepers to place the sticker in their shop windows but this did not always happen. As a marketing strategy, the next time the delegation visits a shop it should offer to place the sticker on the window there and then.
I join both Chairmen in congratulating the initiative, which I know is replicated across the country and a similar initiative exists in my home town of Wexford. An annual presentation of FAIRTRADE products takes place in the Houses of the Oireachtas. The Church of Ireland community in Wexford has a very dynamic female rector who is a wonderful woman.
The latter contribution by the Reverend Whiteside is more germane to the Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business. We should all strive to look for the labelling of FAIRTRADE but the issue of getting justice in trade is something that we have a responsibility to follow. I do not believe the delegation is powerless or impotent in respect of this matter. Ireland must modify its position within the European Union discussions on the subject of fair trade.
Many members of the committee have taken an active interest in Africa over many years. I had the privilege of being vice-president of a European parliamentary support group for Africa and I have recently returned from a visit to Uganda. A country like Uganda has a GDP per capita of less than $300 per year compared to Ireland’s GDP of $33,000. I saw many women with similar products which cost 10,000 Ugandan shillings, approximately €5, which would feed a family for quite some time. I passed through sugar plantations but they have no allowable market in Europe even though European sugar is produced at three times the world prices. I saw tea and coffee plantations where there is very limited market access and the business is very regulated. The issue of striving for justice in trade is not painless for us, as the people of Carlow will know. It is only by community activity rather than some debate that takes place here that people can be brought to accept change. It will sometimes be painful for us to bring about justice in trade. There will be an opportunity to address this in the next WTO round at the end of the year. The delegation has a very important role not only in the advocacy of the products but in pressurising politicians and in sensitising its own communities to the need for change.
There are many people here today from Meath and Westmeath with school groups and new politicians. I come from Westport, which has had a partnership with Aror for approximately 25 years. Every year the people of Westport collect €30,000, €40,000 or €50,000. This money is brought from the town by people, professional and non-professional, who go to build health centres and schools. Every penny collected in Westport is spent in Aror. I have recently received considerable correspondence about FAIRTRADE, which is why I am present today. I congratulate those in Mullingar, Wexford and any town that has taken this issue on board. It is important for us to have justice in society and in the world. It is only right that we give people an opportunity to sell their goods at a fair price in a fair market. I compliment everybody involved. I have no doubt I will hear considerably more about FAIRTRADE in my town, as it is a town with a great community spirit.
I am glad to see Rev. Whiteside here today. Westport's Catholic church needed to be refurbished recently and I was delighted to see that the Protestant community came to our rescue and allowed its church to be used for many months. We became very fond of it, because it was physically closer to us than the Catholic church. A town like Westport always shows that kind of community spirit, which I would like to see spread throughout the country. I compliment those involved, who have my full support. Having attended this meeting today I can now say to the people of my town that I know considerably more about the issue and I will support them in whatever stand they take.
Mrs. Whiteside
I wish to pick up briefly on two points. On Deputy Howlin's point about sugar, is it too much to ask that the next stage in Leinster House be fair trade sugar?
We do not use it.
Mrs. Whiteside
Nor do we. However, some people do use it with their tea and coffee.
We can certainly make the request.
Mrs. Whiteside
It is now available. Last year supply was very limited. Deputy Ring has reminded me that we are acutely aware we are impoverished. I do not know whether anybody has suggested what we should do. We do not feel we can raise funds for fair trade or for our work. We are impoverished in that we finance everything. All the products at our stands at the fair trade fortnight were paid for out of our own pockets. Ultimately this is not sustainable. However, none of us has any bright idea. Perhaps we could ask our local authority for a small grant — €200 would go a long way for us. We have not concentrated on finance.
I join my colleagues in congratulating the group on its initiative, which is very worthwhile. While it might be presumptuous to offer advice to the people in the forefront, to raise the level of consciousness of the moral issues involved in free trade we should use primary and second level schools to a greater extent. Obviously the role of religion must also be important. This is a moral issue. As Senator Hanafin pointed out it is not long since we sent our beef to England and the jobs in processing were created there rather than here. This matter is still in our folk memory. I suggest that the churches allocate one Sunday each year to discussing the moral issues involved in free trade which is the only way to change the consciousness of people as to what moral issues exist.
I welcome the delegation today. I admit I was not as aware as I should have been as to what was going on. Raising awareness and consciousness is important so that people can begin to make an active choice when purchasing. I congratulate the witnesses on their work and hope they can continue it.
Although I am not a member of either committee, I congratulate the witnesses on what they are doing. The group should emphasise how good the products are. Café Direct is the brand I buy. It is important to note that this is not a charity case but that these are very good products.
I join other members in welcoming the delegation. I apologise for not having been here for the entire presentation. However, having read the submission I am delighted the group is involving the schools by inviting them to attend its launch in Mullingar in November. The children and young people will impress on their parents the need to purchase fair trade goods. Ultimately the message we need to give is that fair trade is all about justice.
Rev. Whiteside
It is wonderful to have such support, for which I thank the members of the committee. While I am not being critical, is it not interesting that two of the speakers made a very natural slip and said "free trade"? We are about awareness and making people aware that this is a matter about which they may not have thought previously. Fair trade affects ordinary people in the countries Deputy Howlin mentioned. During the fair trade fortnight I had the pleasure of meeting Gerardo who is a coffee grower from Costa Rica. He was in the Oxfam shop in King Street beside the Gaiety Theatre and he was beaming because his firm in Costa Rica can now sell 30% of its coffee to FAIRTRADE. When I asked if this was such a big deal he said that if I drank some more his company might be able to sell more. Of that 30% his company gets $1.26 per pound. When selling the remaining 70% to the multinational processors, the price depends on the world market price. If this is good his company might get 80 cents and if it has fallen it might get 40 cents. However, for every pound sold to FAIRTRADE it gets $1.26.
We have had a valuable, memorable and important meeting today. I thank the witnesses, Mrs. Lesley Whiteside, Rev. Robert Whiteside, Ms Ruth Illingworth and Ms Clodagh Ryan for attending and sharing information with us about the fair trade steering group. I hope this will take off throughout the country so that by this time next year we can report even greater progress.
I join Deputy Penrose in thanking the witnesses for appearing before the committee today. We have had a memorable exchange of views. I congratulate Ms Ruth Illingworth on her election. It is lovely to see young people entering public life, especially a young lady who represents the great town of Mullingar and its lovely people. Mrs. Lesley Whiteside invited us to attend the launch in Mullingar last year. I wish Ms Clodagh Ryan well in her new undertaking in which she can make enormous progress. Rev. Whiteside is an eminent gentleman whom we respect. In the words of Jim Reeves, "This world is not my home; I'm just a-passing through". We are trying to enhance and make things better for the next generation.
As one who has come from the world of marketing I believe FAIRTRADE represents a tremendous opportunity and a fantastic challenge. I do not see why we could not have a national fair trade day. On that day we should make time available in the Dáil and Seanad to make our views known and be briefed by the witnesses before us today who are at the cutting edge. I am certain the national radio and television station RTE would play its part. I have been a Member of the Oireachtas for 23 years and I do not recall a joint sitting of two committees like this one to facilitate the steering committee or the original attendance at the lovely morning event in Mullingar last year. There is something wrong when Mrs. Whiteside must ask for a grant of €200. We will reflect over Easter and perhaps have a cup of FAIRTRADE tea or coffee with the steering committee some morning to establish how we can progress matters nationally.
Mrs. Whiteside
Thank you very much.
To give delegates an idea of the context, Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann was founded 50 years ago last year at Mount Street in Mullingar. Mrs. Illingworth knows where that is. From small beginnings can come something very positive. In the words of Mr. Paudge Brennan, a former Member of both Houses, it is never the wrong time to do the right thing. The right thing is being done now. I am very honoured and privileged to be associated with my constituency colleagues, Deputies Penrose and Paul McGrath. Once an election is over, we all stand for Westmeath. As they say, the steering committee is as welcome as the flowers of May. We will do everything we can to obtain national recognition for it and to establish what funding can be put in place from national coffers or the small Estimates of the local authority. I make that assurance on behalf of both committees.
Mrs. Whiteside
Thank you.
I wish everyone a happy Easter. The Select Committee on Social and Family Affairs will meet next month to consider the motion on the bilateral convention on social security which is on today's Dáil Order Paper for referral. A formal agenda will issue in due course and the meeting will more than likely take place the week after Easter.
The joint committee adjourned at 4.22 p.m. sine die.