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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT debate -
Thursday, 17 Jul 2008

Chief Scientific Adviser: Discussion.

I welcome Professor Patrick Cunningham and Mr. Eamonn Cahill and thank them for attending. I also welcome Deputy Noel Treacy, who is well known to the witnesses from his previous role as Minister of State and was involved in this area.

I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. It is generally accepted that witnesses have qualified privilege but the committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I do not anticipate it will arise but we must issue that caveat to all witnesses.

Professor Patrick Cunningham

We will try to stay within the rules. We appreciate the opportunity to meet the committee. I thank Deputy Edward O'Keeffe for taking the initiative. We met recently and I told him I would be pleased to appear before the committee. Happily, the committee has been able to organise an occasion faster than might have been expected.

We should thank the Chairman in that regard.

Professor Patrick Cunningham

I have prepared a background document. How much time should I speak for?

Approximately 10 minutes on a presentation but most of the information is gleaned from exchange, questions and discussion.

Professor Patrick Cunningham

Let me skip through this quickly and we can come back to any points that are of interest. The Office of Chief Scientific Advisor grew out of a committee that was set up four or five years ago because we had been spending increasing amounts on science in Ireland in the ten years before then. That committee decided it needed a chief scientific adviser. The position became vacant last year. I had some reservations about whether I should apply but as I thought I had the qualifications and that it would be a wonderful opportunity, I put in my name and pressed the button. Eventually, I was appointed on a five-year contract.

The terms of reference are that I am to be available to provide advice for the Government. I report to a Cabinet committee on science and technology which is normally chaired by the Taoiseach. We are set on a seven-year programme of science and technology to ramp up our investment. We can examine this issue in detail.

One of the tasks written into my terms of reference is that I am to advise the Government on the broad strategy to be followed. This means benchmarking us against other countries, examining the measures by which we evaluate the balance and the amount the nation spends in this area and trying to measure the various ways by which we can monitor its impact on society. All committee members are aware of the strategy on science and technology, the document on which was issued a little more than a year ago.

My terms of reference state I am 60% committed to the office and that it is a part-time position. For the other 40% of the time I am free to do what I want, provided I do not embarrass the Government - I am supposed to stay respectable in my craft.

My background is in animal genetics. I qualified from UCD and in the early 1960s did a PhD in the United States on animal genetics. I returned and worked with An Foras Talúntais for 25 years. I was director of research for the last eight of those years. From there, I went to the World Bank and on to the Food and Agriculture Organisation of the United Nations where I was director of animal production and health for its global operations for a couple of years. In the meantime, I was appointed to a personal chair at Trinity College because it needed expertise in this branch of genetics. I have held this position for more than 30 years. I am a part-time professor at the college. Effectively, I am full time in this job because there are no limits to what is expected.

The reporting structure is outlined on page 2 of the presentation document and straightforward. Mr. Eamonn Cahill is my strong right arm. He is a physicist by background and strong on mathematics and energy. We complement each other reasonably well. We are the sum total of the office. We report to the Cabinet committee and are supposed to do so in synch with the interdepartmental committee which prepares the ground for the Cabinet committee. The office is independent but at the same time one must have due regard to the linkages in the system. The strategic role of the office is concerned with how we measure performance and assess whether we are doing the right thing and on the right scale appropriate to the stage of development of the country, which is the overall strategic view. It is also concerned with whether the internal structures we have in place to deliver on this are appropriate. I am to keep an eye on this.

Although it is not spelled out in the documents, I am to keep an eye on other countries. I am also to advise on the entire range of issues which arise. The problem is that I am supposed to know everything. Do not tell the Taoiseach, but, in fact, I do not. I find ways of getting at the best knowledge and ensuring any advice prepared for the Government can be relied upon and does not come from a partisan source, as is often the case in dealing with these sensitive issues. I will inform the committee on how we ensure we source the right advice. In my presentation document I list the obvious themes which are to the fore where science impacts on society, starting with energy issues, medical technologies and emerging sciences such as nanotechnology.

Item No. 5 on page 4 of the presentation document outlines what I signalled as the work programme for the current year. We are examining best international practice on how a nation's investment in science and technology is measured. Many countries are trying to run parallel with and stay ahead of us. I developed linkages, on which, if the committee wishes, I will go into detail. Approximately 70% of the State's spend on science and technology is spent on the universities. The transformation of the higher education system to cope with its expanded role as the research engine of the country requires examination.

Dublin is bidding to host the European City of Science project in 2012, the Olympic Games of science. It is an important event which, if the committee wishes, I will discuss in more detail. It takes place every two years and is being held in Barcelona next weekend. Mr. Cahill and I will attend and make as much noise as we can. It is like bidding for the Olympic Games. We must prepare a bid on behalf of the country and the city submitted to an international evaluation committee. We must then sit back and wait. There are no gold watches involved. It is hands off and one must do the best job one can. We are hopeful our chances are good but one should not back one's own horses.

We reach out for best practice to feed in as advice to the Government. We build personal relationships with people with similar titles and responsibilities in other countries. I have done this in several countries and it is a work in progress. The literature, from the deepest scientific literature to popular versions, is so enormous one cannot read it all and waiting for everything to mature into an international report could put one behind the game. Therefore, I try to have a direct channel to Dr. John Beddington, my opposite number in London, and to Canada or France to know the people there in order that we can tap into works in progress and receive their best judgment on issues on which we must exercise our judgment.

We recently proposed the establishment of a panel of experts as a way of tapping into the best advice and knowledge in this country. An issue such as stem cells will arise, in respect of which I will know people on the medical, science and business sides who are involved in it. I might telephone them and have lunch with them and sit down and write position papers. However, there is the danger that people with real expertise will be missed. Many in the academic world spend their lives working at the front-end of the ethics or technology of stem cells issues and are in touch with the literature but have no way of connecting other than writing to newspapers. We propose that the office would establish a panel of experts who would be available on demand to engage with us, write a short position paper or provide us with a read on the current state of the literature.

The panel would serve several purposes. It would protect us against the claim that we only speak with our friends. It would provide a channel of access for those who are knowledgeable and interested in contributing. It would also mean that we would use the best expertise available in the country. We hope it would be cost-effective, as we do not propose to hire a large consulting company with an annual €200,000 contract to learn something and provide us with a report. We are going straight to the experts in the field to say ,"We want three days or one week's work from you, on standard terms." We are using the standard terms applied in the European Union. If one becomes a member of an expert panel in the Union, the standard payment is a couple of hundred euro per day. There is no negotiation. We will be placing an advertisement in the newspapers shortly. It is an experimental process and a new development in the way things are managed here.

The rest of the documentation supplied to the committee comprises a series of illustrations, the first of which deals with the candidature for the city of science project. We have a committee of 45, which is perhaps too large. We started out thinking we would have a steering committee of approximately nine or ten. However, it proved impossible to contain the number. There were too many who had something to contribute and were anxious to do so. Everyone we approached, after a great deal of consultation, agreed to become involved. The committee has met once and been broken up into sub-groups, each of which is charged with undertaking a piece of the job. They came back to us within one month. We have drawn up the first version of our bid document on the basis of what they came back with. I will pass the bid document around for members' information but wish to take it away with me because it is confidential, simply because we do not want the competition to get hold of it.

The city of science project is an important target for Ireland. If we win - we will know the result before the end of the year - we will have three years to prepare. People will remember the Special Olympic Games held here a number of years ago and the great lift that event gave the country. In the same vein, we would have three years to lift the country into its proper place among European countries.

I will hold over the remaining illustrations until we take questions because some are relatively detailed.

I welcome Professor Cunningham. While I am not a scientist and possess no great knowledge of science and technology, I have a keen interest in the matter. The way forward for both Ireland and the rest of the world is through science and technology. I salute Professor Cunningham for the work he is doing and has done in animal genetics. I met him at Trinity College on a previous occasion. I recently attended a conference, at which he was present, in Swords on converging technologies. While Stanford University in California is a private institution, it appears to be the world leader in the field of science. There were two eminent speakers at the conference who gave us much food for thought. They were imaginative in looking ahead. The first speaker, whose name escapes me, was particularly innovative and had a lot to offer. I take it that Professor Cunningham is engaged in similar work. I ask him to elaborate on the advantages of having a link with Stanford University. We have many industries in the science and technology sector which have their headquarters in California.

How much can we achieve in the energy sector through science and technology? As the world around us is falling in because of the high price of oil, what can science offer in terms of alternatives?

I understand Professor Cunningham worked closely with the National Microelectronic Research Centre at University College Cork which was run by a great friend of mine, Professor Gerry Wrixon. How much more can that centre achieve?

My final question is on the controversial subject of genetically modified organisms. We had a meeting recently at which we dealt with genetically modified foods and animal feed. Ireland is very much a livestock producer and very dependent on feed imports from across the world. However, we are resistant to genetically modified foods and animal feed. Ireland will become very uncompetitive in exports. We export approximately 90% of the food we produce but if we cannot import cheap feed because of the resistance to genetically modified produce, the price of milk and meat will rise. It is already having an effect. In that context, how can we deal with the issue of genetically modified organisms?

Professor Patrick Cunningham

The Deputy has raised a theme which we could spend the rest of the afternoon discussing. Stanford University is one of the top three or four universities in the United States. There is no doubt the United State is the country from where most of the new technology comes these days. In fact, Mr. Cahill and I are travelling to Barcelona later this afternoon to take part in the annual Olympics of science event. One of the sessions, which I am chairing, is entitled "Mars and Venus", during which the question of whether the United States and Europe treat and manage science differently will be addressed. It is a central point. In the last few decades the United States has managed to focus energy and money in a way we have not managed to do in Europe. There are 27 countries in the European Union. Some 95% of all the money spent on science is spent by the various countries, with only 5% being spent by the European Union centrally. This means we do not have any great central focal points in Europe. That is the big difference between the two regions. In the United States a higher proportion of the funding comes from the federal government, much of it related to defence spending. It has had the benefit for an entire generation of great concentrations of funding and expertise. These concentrations are not just to be found at Stanford, Harvard, Yale and Columbia universities, but also in the top state research institutions.

We are fortunate in this country because we are halfway between Berlin and Boston. We have better links with the United States than many of our European neighbours, through a series of very good political judgments made in previous decades, dating back 30 years. We have courted American capital and the world has come right for us in the sense that the common currency area in the European Union has meant that this is a favoured location for American companies. We have figures which show that the flow of technology backed by American capital here exploiting the European market has probably been the biggest single driver of the economy. This would not have happened had we not done other things but it reinforces the point with which Deputy O' Keeffe began, namely, that we must use our strength in the United States to best advantage.

In February I was in MIT, another engine in the United States, where I met the Irish graduate students studying there, of whom there are approximately 20. They are an extraordinary bunch. The dean of graduate studies joined us and sang the praises of the young Irish scientists working there on various projects in biology, energy, engineering and so forth. We have seed corn in the form of brilliant young people, whom we must try to harvest and bring back to this country. One could say a great deal more about this matter, but suffice to say the links with the United States are very important.

On the energy front, there is great deal one could say but I will try to give a brief response. Energy does not stand alone. It is now part of the climate story. Therefore, we must shift the energy balance to ensure we do not simply pump more CO2 into the atmosphere. Energy and climate are very closely related. This is pushing us away from burning fuel, whether it be our own turf or somebody else's oil, gas or coal. The latter provides one quarter of our electricity supply at Moneypoint but this will have to change within a generation. It is not just a question of the cost of gas, oil and so forth. We are being pushed towards renewable energy sources. Wind power is one such source that is serving us well. It is a mature technology which has been available for more than 20 years. It is a question of deploying the investment.

The sea has hardly been touched because many of the large countries such Germany have no coastline worth speaking about and America has relatively more solar and wind power resources available to it. Investment in harvesting the power of the sea has been limited, although members will be aware that an energy research council has been established to invest in this area. Energy can be harvested from the sea in two ways, on the first of which a research laboratory in Cork has been working - wave bob - for the past 20 years. It is at the forefront in the development of of this technology. It is currently testing devices in Galway Bay. However, this is a challenging area because in the interface between the atmosphere and the oceans there is enormous concentrated and destructive energy. Building devices to withstand these forces is an enormously challenging task.

The second way of harvesting energy, tidal current, appears to have better potential in the longer term. In going deeper into the ocean the destructive force is avoided but it is still possible to harness the energy of tidal currents driven twice each day by the great piston in the sky, the moon. The rise and fall of the tides can be seen along the coast but the effects are also felt offshore. This technology is in its infancy but Ireland is well placed to rise with the tide, so to speak. I do not know enough to be definitive on the matter but believe we should focus on this area as the technology develops.

Bio-fuels receive considerable attention and, given my background in agriculture, I have taken a particular interest in the area. I visited Iowa in the frost and snow of February to observe the transformation which had taken place in that state's economy. Farmers used to sell corn at $2.50 per bushel but the price for this autumn's crop stands at $7.50, although the cost of production has not changed dramatically. They are in Heaven. The waiting list for John Deere harvesters is currently two years because everybody is changing machinery. They are even buying houses in Florida. However, it is a false economy. When I visited a bio-ethanol plant, I was struck by the trainloads of coal brought in every second day. On the best calculation, the energy produced at the plant is only 1.4 times the amount consumed; some would even claim the ratio is negative over the plant's full life cycle. This is an internal American system which is being challenged.

The same calculations apply to Ireland. We grow wheat more efficiently than almost anywhere else in the world. I do not know if members are aware that we produce the highest yields in the world. The average global wheat yield is three tonnes per hectare, whereas in Ireland it is almost ten tonnes. This year the yield will probably be as good as it ever was. No other country in the world produces an average yield of ten tonnes; therefore, we are at the top of the tree. However, if we were to begin to produce energy from wheat, we would face the same arguments about energy efficiency as in the United States. It would mean we could use domestically produced bio-fuel in our tanks instead of imports from Saudi Arabia but that is a marginal calculation in the context of our circumstances.

The great promise is that the next generation of bio-ethanols will be based on converted woody tissues such as switch grass in America or willow plantations in Ireland. It can be done in theory. I visited a factory in Canada owned by Iogen which was started by a Belfast family. A tonne of wheat straw is put in at one end of this complex factory and 250 litres of ethanol is produced at the other. Technically, therefore, it can be shown to work but it is enormously costly and I do not know if it will survive, even if the cost of oil reaches $150 per barrel. It is uncertain whether the next generation involving cellulose to ethanol conversion makes sense. We should begin trials to keep on top of the best technology but it is not economically and technically secure enough for us to put all our eggs in one basket.

Nuclear power is off the political agenda. Approximately 500 nuclear plants are in operation throughout the world. After a 30 year moratorium, the United States plans to commission 18 new nuclear plants. I would not like to pronounce on this issue but the next generation, if not this one, will be giving it serious consideration.

Deputy O'Keeffe asked about the micro-electronics initiative in Cork which has matured into the Tyndall National Institute. I have spent time at the institute and Mr. Cahill has visited it separately; therefore, we are familiar with its activities. It has been a remarkable success, as was the micro-electronics laboratory. Much of the electronics industry in this country owes its existence to an internationally competitive base of people and the purpose of the current investment strategy is to expand it progressively to a level commensurate with the size of the country. I was encouraged that the institute was not only conducting traditional research that would have resulted in doctorates ten years ago but was also in the lead in respect of micro-electronic materials.

In regard to GMOs, I am expected to provide independent and grounded advice for the Government on a range of issues. The only issue on which I have formally done so is GMOs. I provided the advice on my own initiative last summer because I could see that, in the light of the change in Government and the incorporation of Green Party policies, the facts needed to be made available. I put together a paper and carefully studied the literature available on the subject. From a technical perspective, it must be asked whether GM technology is worthwhile, if it contributes to reducing costs in grain production and if it will produce benefits for the consumer. The answer to these questions has to be yes because GMOs would not otherwise be grown on 100 million hectares of land worldwide.

Two crops, in particular, corn and soya bean, have given a tremendous competitive advantage to their users, as can be seen in Latin America, the USA, the Far East and Australia. The technology is also being used in rice production and it is well established in the production of cotton as a way of stitching resistance to insect damage into the crop. Until recently, GM corn crops were protected against insects or resistant to herbicides such that cheaper biodegradable herbicides could be used. By 2010, it is possible that eight separate genetic events may be stitched into corn in order to protect crops from particular insects such as root and stem borers and to confer the ability to withstand particular herbicides, thereby reducing weed control costs. That front is advancing at quite a rate. This is inevitable in Europe, despite the fact that people are generally against GM foods. There is evidence of this in Spain where there are about 100,000 hectares of corn and a particular challenge is posed by the European stem borer, an insect that bores into the stem and reduces the value of the crop. Despite the fact that they are not welcome in Europe, in places where there are challenges presented by insects such as the stem borer these varieties are expanding.

As to whether it is safe, we have looked carefully at the relevant literature which consists of over 30,000 scientific papers. I will say nothing of what is written in blogs, newspapers, Time magazine and so on, as we should forget such stuff. We referred only to scientific papers submitted to scientific journals, sent to independent referees, challenged and editorially judged. They will only be published if they are thought to be authentic and independent work. There are over 30,000 such papers in the relevant literature. When we looked through them, we found that a relatively small amount, around 100 papers, could be said to directly examine the question of whether genetically modified corn, for example, was safe. Experiments have been done on rats and mice but not on humans because such experiments on humans are not allowed. The experiments on rats, mice and pigs have, almost without exception, been totally reassuring. The other reassurance on the safety issue is that in certain countries, particularly the United States and throughout the Americas, these products have been on the market for around 15 years. About 60% of products in our own supermarkets have either corn or soya bean. As they are manufactured internationally, GM products are, in fact, on our supermarket shelves.

This is a technology that will come but it has not been of great importance in Ireland. Of the crops in which it has been developed to date, corn was first; soya, second, and then cotton and rice. It can now be found in bananas, papaya and tomatoes. In the next couple of years genetically modified varieties of these crops will become available and they will be adopted by persons who grow such crops due to cost savings in production. Genetic modification has not been of importance in Ireland because the crops in which it has been used to date are not grown here. It will not be a huge issue in agriculture because when such crops are grown in this country, they tend to be minor crops. The first popular crop to experience this here will probably be potatoes, as there are now varieties that are blight resistant which would be a tremendous advantage; instead of spraying a toxic chemical, copper, five or six times during a season one could grow a resistant variety. We can be reassured on the issue of safety.

The other issues mostly come down to a fear of the unknown. One must recognise the reality that 70% of people in Europe are against this. That is the dilemma facing politicians. This is generally translated into the precautionary principle, which means we are slower to authorise such products in Europe, although we do authorise them. About one year to 18 months after America, the Commission tends to grant authorisation for them to be used; for example, we use approved GM corn in pig feed in this country. The problems arise because the delay means ships on the high seas must be approved in Ireland before departure, arrival and release. Sometimes there can be confusion as to whether a shipment contains levels of unapproved varieties. I could go on about the GM story but that is enough for now.

As a non-member of the committee, I thank the Chairman for letting me speak. I have a long relationship with the professor and thank him for his detailed contribution. The main issues I wish to raise have been touched on partially. I am satisfied with the answer on genetically modified organisms, but also wish to go into the issue of energy.

Energy is a major problem that we face because we fear the unknown and when we try to do something in this regard, we face many objections. Scientists seem to be able to prove anything they like. Since meat and bone meal were banned from pig and poultry feed, they have been exported to Germany and elsewhere at huge cost to the nation. We will not utilise them in our power stations or allow a power station to be built to use them. The same goes for poultry litter and other items. Can we find a means to assure people that products such as these can be utilised in biomass plants to save the nation money? For example, in the United Kingdom farmers are paid for poultry litter, while farmers here pay a great deal to have it removed.

EirGrid is a major problem because a new North-South link is proposed to run through counties Cavan, Monaghan and Meath. Again, there is a fear of the unknown and it seems that more than enough scientists have emphasised the health dangers of this project for animals and humans. I attended a meeting on Monday night and all sorts of issues were raised. Is anything being done to clarify these matters in order that we can ensure energy costs are kept to a realistic level? If we cannot do this, we cannot compete.

I appreciate the work Professor Cunningham is doing because the constituency I represent depends on the manufacturing industry. If we do not attract high-tech, science-led industries, we will not compete with the Far East and other areas.

Professor Patrick Cunningham

I will start with the last point, as Ireland changed from being an agricultural country to being a low-skilled manufacturing country; we have moved on again and cannot go back. We must keep moving forward because there is no way we can go back to stitching shirts for a living - one could not earn a living wage from such work in this country. We have no option but to move forward and will do this primarily by investing in people. This must be matched by investment in well judged supports such as those offered by IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland which promote initiative and industry. We must make Ireland a business-friendly place. The future lies in sophisticated industries, although we need not sever all links with the past. Monty trucks in County Monaghan is a good example of this. However, there are others. I agree with the Deputy in this regard.

The Deputy also raised the matters of public objections to overhead power lines, the North-South interconnector and the incineration of suspect materials. The overwhelming balance of scientific evidence is reassuring. It shows that these lines, properly managed, are safe. The challenge is how to balance this with public objections. It was said that there are many scientists who will come out and say they are dangerous. That is actually not true. The overwhelming balance of proper, publicly challengeable evidence on both of these issues states they are safe when properly managed. Certainly one can find individuals with PhDs and academic qualifications who say they have questions about them. There is a spectrum of opinion in science. However, we cannot say that simply because somebody with apparently good qualifications will stand up and speak for a particular viewpoint, that viewpoint is equal to the overwhelming balance of properly conducted and evaluated research in this area. All one can do is to reassert and back up with evidence the fact that the bulk of informed, properly researched opinion is that they are safe when properly managed. I do not refer to opinion that is captive to vested interests but independent opinion from people who are conducting research independently with no commitment to anything other than the public good. It is our job to make sure we can articulate properly, where that is the case, that it is the case.

Although we have not conducted full analyses of either of these issues, I can say with confidence that the bulk of scientific evidence says they are safe. It is thus an issue of perception and of public relations, and ultimately a political issue in terms of the judgments that must be made. We have been deliberately cautious in this country because there is great sensitivity to it and also because, at least in scientific terms, the minority view tends to get greater public attention and is amplified. There is therefore an imbalance in how they are presented to the public, which is reflected in sensitivity at a political level.

I wish the professor well in his work, which is obviously a great challenge, and in the City of Science application. To return to the issue of tidal energy, by way of information, there is a small company in Greenore, County Louth, which is making tidal turbines, and it is making real progress. It might be worth taking a look at what it is doing. I feel it is exciting because while wind may not blow and waves may not be there, the tides are there twice a day every day. There is great potential there if we can only make it economically viable.

We are some way into the strategy for 2006 to 2013. What kind of progress is being made at this stage? Given the fear about availability of resources, with the economy turning down a little, how much of the strategy is a function of resources? Does Professor Cunningham have any fears about delivering on the strategy within the timeframe?

In the summary innovation index provided as part of the pack, Ireland has a value of 0.49. We are in a group that is referred to as "followers" rather than "leaders" and are midway in an index whose total is 1. At one level one could say we have a long way to go, but we can compare our value to that of the US, which is 0.55. How significant is this gap in terms of Professor Cunningham's understanding of the drivers of the index?

Professor Patrick Cunningham

I agree with the Senator's first observation about the small start we are making on tidal energy. We should consider this closely and support it strongly.

I will not spend too much time on the summary innovation index. On the previous page there are 25 indicators which are used by a group at Maastricht University in calculating the index. As far as we can see this is the most advanced research on measuring the transformation of countries through innovation. A numerical ranking is produced. How respectable is the result? As members can see, we are a little above average, in the "follower" group. The lower end of the scale is largely filled by the ex-communist countries of eastern Europe and the Mediterranean countries, which, for historical reasons - particularly eastern Europe - we would not expect to be in the same class. If we consider the upper half of the table we can see we are around halfway there. Our ambition is to be up with the leaders, including Sweden, Finland, Switzerland and Denmark. On some scales we are already there, in terms of GNP per head, but whether that is sustainable depends on the investment we make in our capacity to stay competitive in this highly competitive, sophisticated world.

The Senator asked whether we were confident we could sustain the promise in the National Development Plan 2006-2013. I am encouraged by public statements made by both the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste since the re-formation of the Government which seemed to indicate they still have a conviction that this is a priority area for investment by this country. We are building roads and so on, but the investment in people and in our capacity to compete is important. I am speaking essentially about upgrading the educational system - there is already a higher proportion of people coming through with higher qualifications - and in building on top of that the capacity to deliver innovation. That complex is what is going to make the future of this country. There is another graph in which we have attempted to project where that period of the NDP will take us. We reckon it should take us into the company of the top six or seven countries in the OECD in terms of capacity.

We are catching up with the others. The pipeline from investment in education and research to the delivery of benefits to society is at least ten years. As we saw, for example, with the initiative of universal secondary education in 1967, it was a decade or more before we really began to reap the benefits. The benefits of building the ITs and regional technical colleges, as they were, in the 1970s, also took a decade or more to be felt. We are at the same sort of game here but at a higher level, which is an appropriate level for this country. We could not have done this 20 or 30 years ago because the people coming through were not educated enough to participate. It is appropriate now and it comes at a very good time. It is important that those who make the political decisions should be aware of the context, which is that this is the most significant investment in the future welfare of this country.

To put it in another context, if we look through public expenditure for something that is well defined and has a similar sort of expenditure, we find foreign assistance. The ODA budget is about the same. We are investing about the same amount in helping Africa to survive into the future, which is very important, as we are investing in the capacity of this country. Putting it in that context, we can see it is an important but small part of our overall expenditure. My hope is that this will be one of the best protected areas because it is the seed of future prosperity.

I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to address the committee. I warmly welcome Professor Cunningham and Dr. Cahill and thank them for their contributions. In particular, I congratulate Professor Cunningham on his appointment and I admire his openness in the responses he has given today. I am a layman but I have worked closely with AFT, ACOT and Teagasc in the past. I am proud of the animal research that is being carried out in my own constituency in Athenry. I have seen the work done by Professor Cunningham's eminent colleagues there.

As politicians and legislators we have a serious responsibility to frame the laws and instruments that help to run the country. We now have a bio-ethics report to Government that was put together by eminent people. Some people wish to change that report and we recently held an ad hoc meeting attended by qualified people who gave different points of view. A hallmark of the evolution of science here is that there has been distortion of facts, creation of fear and unnecessary confusion created among the populace that has impeded our progress over the years. It is a serious problem. When I was Minister of State with responsibility for Science from 1997-2002 I said that the many eminent scientists in our country needed to create a clear and constant message so that the people would know what steps were involved and how we could go forward together.

I very much agree with what was said about the pylons and the energy field. It is very easy to get people who will come up with documents and papers and suggestions to create such confusion but ultimately we must be guided, as legislators, on what is best for the common good.

I salute the delegates on their bid for City of Science and I wish them every success with it. This is not just important for Dublin and Europe but is vitally important for the country. I hope we can win that bid. We had the world Apimondia conference here some years ago. The Taoiseach of the day, Deputy Bertie Ahern, played a major role as patron of that conference, along with Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú who greatly assisted in ensuring we were able to win the bid. I hope we can use the current Government situation to persuade others that we should get this upcoming opportunity.

Ireland has a great history. I regard Newgrange as the eighth wonder of the world. If we win the bid I hope Newgrange will feature on the itinerary so that our scientists and visitors might see the genesis of Irish science and realise how ancient it is. I notice on the programme that Wicklow National Park has been included and I am delighted with that. It was one of the country's great acquisitions, a very important one at a reasonably low cost. I hope a visit to Lullymore in County Kildare or Clara in County Offaly to see the great bogs of Ireland might also be included. The world scientists who would visit might then see the great nature we have, the scientific opportunities that are there, and how we have preserved them over the years.

I also hope this might be expanded into a European dimension. The EU Food and Veterinary Office in Grange in County Meath is one of the foremost conference centres in the world. I hope the work that goes on there can be utilised for some of the planned activities. It would be an ideal location, away from the madding crowd. I see an opportunity also for the European Foundation for Living and Working Conditions in Loughlinstown, which also has tremendous facilities. Its personnel might be able to make a contribution.

I had the opportunity to chair the interdepartmental science committee from 1997-2002 and in 1998 I founded the European Union Science Olympiad, EUSO, to try to create a competitive incentive for our fourth-year students at second-level so that they could compete in Ireland in national competition and subsequently in Europe. We hoped to inculcate in them a desire to focus on the sciences. The intention in providing that competition was that when students came to leaving certificate level they might be able to compete at the highest international levels of the Young Scientist competition, with Chinese, American and other students. We wanted to make sure that we were on that level because it was my belief we were somewhat behind.

This is the tenth anniversary of that competition. We ran it in Dublin in 1998, in Galway in 2001 and perhaps in 2012 we will be able to hold it in the proposed City of Science. That would be a good thing.

I am fascinated by two areas of science in particular, archaeology and geology. I regard the Geological Survey of Ireland as one of the most outstanding latent gems of Irish public service. I hope it can be involved in 2012. It is sited in the city, has outstanding people, has made a huge contribution over the years and would certainly have something to offer for that occasion.The GSI made a significant contribution over the years and it will have a contribution to make to the plans for 2012 too. The NRA has, by law, contributed a significant amount of work in the field of archaeology. Perhaps it will have a further contribution to make in exposing to the world new archaeological information that it has unearthed at road works and motorways. There is a sizable reservoir of information that could contribute to exposing the quality of work in Ireland. The NRA could also show how this can be done throughout the world as other developed countries have similar requirements.

Can the delegation provide a view on how it sees the evolution of the climate change issue in the future? The comments on wheat production were interesting. Although we have a temperate, wet climate we have the capacity to grow many forests. Is there potential, given wheat production and forestry capacity, to capitalise on opportunities in those fields?

I hope that for the 2012 plans we could co-operate with the European framework programmes and the European Space Agency programmes. Ireland has been involved in those programmes and the European dimension is relevant. Enterprise Ireland has played a significant role especially in the European space programme and perhaps we can highlight the possibilities and opportunities there. A significant number of companies here can compete at the highest levels in these programmes and win an opportunity to supply goods and services, which is something we can use to our benefit.

Is the delegation satisfied that the creation of Science Foundation Ireland was the correct decision? I hope it was and I believe it is. Is there a new impetus involving the third level sector and Science Foundation Ireland driving the science agenda to world class standards? Is the delegation satisfied we are making progress as expected?

The delegation has referred to marine matters and I regard the Marine Institute as a world class organisation. We have created one of the most modern, sophisticated institutes in the world dealing with marine matters. There is significant capacity and as a country we have ten times more water than land. The Marine Institute is in partnership with the Canadian marine institute and others on joint venture programmes to our benefit and it takes account of the expertise and experience available. I hope we can drive that agenda forward.

Are there sufficient incentives to attract further industrial research to Ireland? Are the universities and institutes of technology sufficiently geared to help new science-based start-up companies and to utilise the intellectual capacity and growing population here?

Can the delegation deal with the questions?

If the chairman wishes I will propose an extension of five minutes to allow the professor to respond.

That is all right.

Professor Patrick Cunningham

I will be as brief as possible. I appreciate the support of Deputy Treacy for the study of science. This will be a transformational event here. We are still largely seen abroad as Riverdance, Guinness and a good time, which is terrific and it has served us very well. However, we must develop a self perception and an external perception that we are a high-tech, sophisticated country where people come, not only to have a good weekend in Temple Bar, but to learn. This is where ideas, services and products come from. It is a part of that transformation. The wealth of suggestions provided is on our agenda. However, the central event is one week which will probably be in the new convention centre in Dublin. We hope to build a year of activities around that, taking in many of the suggestions proposed today.

There was reference to the bio-ethics report from the Bio-Ethics Council. I spent three years on the council so I was involved in some of that work. There is the usual struggle. It is possible to outline the science behind a topic such as embryonic stem cells. That is being transformed by the new technology emerging within the past year whereby adult cells from tissues elsewhere in the body, can be reprogrammed to start life again. Stem cell lines can be created which can be used to develop gene therapy. That is an extraordinarily promising area. It had promise ten years ago and it has not delivered on it yet. There is the promise that we will transform medicine a generation from now. We have to do the research now to do this. The bioethical issues that were centred on the use of embryonic stem cells will be less acute in the future than they were in the past, largely because they are being outflanked by the development of reprogrammed adult cells.

There probably is not time to go into everything. Members referred to climate change which — as with energy — has to be central to our policy. The plan to reduce our carbon emissions by 3% per year has been challenged by some economists. It is a matter of debate as to how fast we can respond to that. There is no doubt that within a generation we have to transform our energy and therefore our climate life.

I endorse the committee's view that the Marine Institute is a world class institute and the GSI, the Geological Survey of Ireland, has been transformed in the past decade or two as part of the transformation of our science. With all due respect to those who work there, it had an aura of being a nineteenth century institution, which it was and which did tremendous work then, but it has now come into a new life. The archaeology here got a boost unequalled anywhere in Europe, through the roads programme and the amount spent on it. We need to pay attention now to the fact that all of the artefacts that have been retrieved from this are the material for re-examining our past in a way that was not possible before. Most of that stuff is in sacks on shelves somewhere. One of the things to which we must pay attention is that we do not lose the link to this material which will be the raw material for another generation of examination.

Members asked whether SFI is on target. One of the graphs here, and these two pie charts we have provided, give a fairly good summary of where government expenditure comes from, the channels through which it flows, and who uses it. That is useful information. It shows that SFI spent 16% of the total amount spent by Government in Government controlled institutions, leaving out what is spent on business. It is a significant part of the total but it is not the biggest part. It is an initiative taken several years ago and I fully endorse it; it was very timely and it is on target. A value for money audit of that agency was just completed and should be published soon. It is entirely encouraging that it is on target. It is not necessarily on target in creating waves of new employment in the west of Ireland because that is some years down the road. However, it is on target.

Are there sites for any of them?

Professor Patrick Cunningham

It is linked into the IDA and Enterprise Ireland so that is not being lost. I would like to reflect on the thought that went into putting it together. It was told to focus on biotechnology and IT. That was a reflection of the fact that they were the technologies that underpin new industry here. That was very good judgment. It was told within that, "You are not to be going out doing adaptive technology. You are to do state-of-the-art basic research". At first glance, that seems like a contradiction in terms. Can one do basic research and at the same time have it focused on something of interest in the country? It is turning out that was a good judgement. If one talks to the people in the IDA they will say in their discussions with the big companies interested in staying here and interested in why they are here, that it is the fact that people are pushing the edges of the research they are interested in, very often linking with them, that is the anchor keeping them here. If one looks at a much freer market like the United States, where are these things happening? They are happening in Massachusetts, California, Michigan and North Carolina. These are places where the local authorities, the state governments and so on, have said, "We want to concentrate and build an updraft of collective contribution to science at the basic level all the way through to widespread employment".

We are on track and I fully endorse the policies behind SFI. The evidence is that it is delivering. It is easy to deliver on the first deliverables; to spend money, put people in place and be able to say the head count is 10% up on last year. That is happening. However, the secondary one, which is the output as first measured by the number of publications and citations, is also on a rising graph. I hope the Indecon report will show that. Members asked if there are enough incentives and strategies in place to drive research from the lab out into business.

Particularly for international companies; can we get their research and development here? Are there enough incentives for that?

Professor Patrick Cunningham

One would have to go to the IDA to get the full story on that, because they are the interface with these companies. What I hear from them is that the answer is "yes". In a much freer market such as the United States, these developments are happening in Massachusetts, California, to a certain extent in Michigan and in North Carolina. In those states the local authorities, the state governments and so on, have decided to build a type of updraft of collective contribution to science at the basic level through to widespread employment.

We are on track in that regard, and I fully endorse the policies behind Science Foundation Ireland. The evidence is that it is delivering. It is easy to deliver on the first deliverables, which is to spend money, put people in place and be able to say the head count is 10% up on what it was last year. That is happening but the secondary one, which is the output as first measured by the number of publications, the number of citations of these, is also on a rising graph and I hope this INDECON report will show that.

The Deputy asked whether there are enough incentives and strategies in place to drive research from the laboratory into business.

Particularly for international companies. Are there enough incentives to encourage them to base their research and development projects here?

Professor Patrick Cunningham

The Deputy would have to consult with the IDA to get the full story on that because it is the interface between those companies, but from what I hear from the IDA the answer is "Yes". I understand there are some announcements in the pipeline that will reinforce that message. Whether that is enough is something we can only tell with time but it is certainly not the opposite. There are significant implantations of research groups. That is not a case of 1,000 people going into a new plant to make a new drug. It is more a case of 100 people going into a new laboratory to push the technology but that is anchoring the whole enterprise here. In that sense, it is working well in terms of serving the big international companies.

Where I would have more doubts is in driving the research through into start-up companies and initiatives in this country. I was invited to Israel in December by the chief scientific adviser's office, which is effectively its department of enterprise, trade and employment but is called the chief scientist's office, to talk with its representatives about their strategy and our strategy. The difference I observed there was the purposeful way in which they have primed the financial industry, and I do not mean just state money, with a degree of state support and risk taking and harnessed that to purposeful programmes in each of their universities and research institutes to drive the ideas out of the laboratory and encourage people to take them to the market. It is often not the bench researcher who can do that but somebody should be questioning if something has a future and, if so, the steps that need to be taken to take it out of the laboratory and do something with it.

They have incubator units and so on. That is a structure from which we have much to learn. They have built approximately 1,000 companies in the past ten years, about 100 per year, in these incubators. They have 20 incubators in a country with about the same population as Ireland and more than half of those have gone on to raise money from the commercial markets, which is a good measure of success. That country, which in some ways is more unfavoured than ours, has 154 companies on the Nasdaq. Those are companies that grew out of technology and attracted money from the international market. We have seven companies on the Nasdaq. There are other differences between the two countries but those two examples of evidence of the success of their programme indicate that we can do something similar.

If I were deciding on areas in which we should be putting more effort it is to drive start-ups. Most people working at the bench, who are the scientists, do not have the financial resources, the time or the expertise to do that. The two must be linked a little better.

We also have a good spirit of enterprise here because this innovation entrepreneurship report that came out in recent days——

Mr. Eamonn Cahill

The Global Entrepreneurship Monitor.

Forfás.

Mr. Eamonn Cahill

And UCD.

Professor Patrick Cunningham

Yes. It paints a good picture of the readiness to get projects going in this country at a general level but much of it is service companies serving the building industry or whatever. We want to take that spirit of enterprise and somehow facilitate it in the context of our investment in research and development.

I thank Professor Cunningham and Mr. Cahill for attending. I have never heard a witness being more forthright, frank or expansive in his or her replies than Professor Cunningham. When I attended UCD, I was obliged to study genetics. Professor Cunningham, who I have not met for many years, was responsible for drafting some of the examination papers.

Members have learned a great deal from what has been said. The development of a coherent and innovative strategy for science and technology is essential for any advanced economy. This is particularly the case in light of the difficulties Ireland Inc. is facing at present. We need to maintain employment levels in order to ensure there will be no recurrence of what happened in the 1980s, when our most valuable export was our educated and skilled workforce. There has been a downturn of late. However, as Professor Cunningham indicated, science and technology - and increased investment therein - will play a part in helping to protect our economy and our prospects for the better times that lie ahead.

We hope our guests will be successful in their efforts to have Dublin declared European City of Science. As Deputy Treacy stated, we would like the benefits of such a development to be felt in places, particularly rural areas, outside the Pale. The areas to which I refer have a great deal to offer.

The Chairman might yet become a Minister.

The Deputy has more faith in me than I could ever have in myself.

I again thank our guests for attending. They have another appointment after this one. I am sure they will use the event in Barcelona as an opportunity to further Dublin's bid to be European City of Science. We wish our guests every success in that regard because if they win, everyone will win.

Professor Patrick Cunningham

I thank the Chairman.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.40 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 4 September 2008.
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