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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT debate -
Tuesday, 3 Feb 2009

Aldi Stores Ireland Limited.

The first presentation is on planning guidelines for retail outlets. I welcome Mr. Denzell Balfour, property director, and Mr. Donald Mackay, managing director, Aldi Stores Ireland Limited, and thank them for their attendance. As we have a busy schedule, I ask them to be as brief as possible in summarising their submissions. They will have five minutes to make a presentation which will be followed by a discussion with members of the committee. I draw attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I call on Mr. Denzell Balfour to make a presentation.

Mr. Denzell Balfour

Aldi welcomes the undertaking of the review of the retail planning guidelines and we are happy to become proactively involved at this initial stage of the review process. We do have some concerns regarding aspects of the existing retail planning guidelines, in particular the way they are interpreted differently by local authorities. These guidelines are very clear that the planning system should encourage competition and innovation but, notwithstanding this, we consider that discount retailers face more stringent limitations on size than other grocery retailers, thereby inhibiting competition.

It has been our experience that the planning system has acted as a barrier to competition in the convenience sector in the following ways. There are restrictions on the definition and size of discount food stores, restrictions on where discount food stores can locate, floor space projections and retail strategies and unnecessary delays resulting from objections and appeals.

In terms of the definition and size of discount food stores, the retail planning guidelines describe discount food stores as single level, self-service stores, normally between 1,000 sq. m and 1,500 sq. m of gross floor space. In 2001 discount food stores were a relatively new phenomenon in Ireland, but the changing nature of the discount food store should be recognised in line with the increasing popularity of this type of retailing. It should be acknowledged in the new guidelines that the average size of food stores has increased to up to 1,800 sq. m. The description set out is not intended to be prescriptive in terms of a threshold size for such developments; it is to be used by local authorities as a broad indication of the potential retail floor space to be provided by discount food stores. Notwithstanding this, a number of local authorities appear, in practice, to regard the 1,500 sq. m figure as being a binding upper limit. It should be clearly outlined in the guidelines that the revised figure of 1,800 sq. m gross should not be viewed as a cap on the size of discount food stores.

Regarding locations for discount food stores, while the retail planning guidelines acknowledge that discount food stores are acceptable in town, district and neighbourhood centres, it is considered that the range of land use zonings under which discount food stores are listed as permitted should be expanded. In a number of instances the development of discount food stores is inhibited by overly restrictive zoning matrices within development plans. In particular, it is considered that retail planning guidelines should continue to specifically recognise the role discount food stores can play in the redevelopment of previously industrial locations that have become obsolete. These locations often adjoin well established residential areas and, in many cases, have become derelict. The redevelopment of locations where discount food store use can provide a well designed neighbourhood retail facility may dramatically improve the physical appearance and environment of the immediate area. It is submitted that it should be specifically recognised in the guidelines that discount food stores can be appropriate on land zoned for industrial enterprise and residential purposes, particularly where they can serve a neighbourhood function.

On floor space projections and retail strategies, local authorities are required to produce development plans containing specific retail strategies. These retail strategies establish the optimal scale and location for retail development. However, local authorities often regard floor space projections as limits on the total amount of retail development they can permit, thereby restricting development. This issue was recognised in a recent report by the Competition Authority, which noted that, in practice, it seems local authorities and An Bord Pleanála place weight on projections of required future retail floor space contained in local authority development plans. The report goes on to acknowledge that an assessment by a local authority of the likely additional floor space required within its administrative area could be seen as determining how many entrants will be admitted to the retail trade in a particular area. The Goodbody report in 2000 highlighted this as a concern, stating that these assessments could be anti-competitive, tending to stifle innovation and contrary to the interests of consumers. It should be acknowledged in the retail planning guidelines that the floor space capacity figures set out in retail strategies should not be considered as upper limits, but merely as indicative of the scale of new floor space required to meet the needs of the existing and future population and expenditure in a particular area. These figures should be seen as minimums rather than maximums. The key criterion in the assessment of an application is the location of the new floor space. The quantum of floor space only becomes a critical consideration where new floor space is proposed outside of the defined retail core of the town.

I will now deal with third party appeals to planning applications. The uncertainty regarding planning permission can also raise the cost and delay the arrival of the new retail outlet. Given that the effect of third party appeals, especially by competitors, is primarily to delay the planning process and therefore raise the cost of entry, we would consider that the Competition Authority recommendation that further research be undertaken with a view to limiting grounds for appeals based on anti-competitive and commercial reasons should be adopted. It is submitted that the delays currently experienced in the planning system in Ireland inhibit competition in the retail sector, particularly due to the postponement of decision on appeals to An Bord Pleanála, which rarely achieves the target timeframe of 18 weeks and generally takes six to nine months to issue a decision on an appeal. In cases where An Bord Pleanála refuses planning permission for the development, the prolonged delays in making the decision further inhibit the development process and the time of delivery of new stores in Ireland.

Let me reiterate that it is considered that discount retailers face more stringent limitations on size than other grocery retailers, thereby inhibiting competition. It has been our experience that aspects of the planning system have acted as a barrier to competition in the convenience sector. It is submitted that the following amendment should be made to the retail planning guidelines in order to facilitate a more competitive retail environment: updating the description of the discount food store to reflect an average size of up to 1,800 sq. m, clarifying that the descriptive size set out in the guidelines should not be interpreted as a cap, specifically recognising the role of discount food stores to serve a neighbourhood function, acknowledging that floor space projections within retail strategies should not be interpreted as upper limits on the total amount of retail development that the planners can permit within their administrative areas, limitating grounds for vexatious third party appeals.

I will call Deputies Dara Calleary, Deirdre Clune and Arthur Morgan in that order, but I appeal to them to be as brief and concise as Mr. Balfour.

Mr. Balfour is stating effectively that in his opinion our planning regulations are raising the cost of entry for discount food stores. How do planning regulations in Ireland compare with those in other countries in which the company operates? How does the average size of an outlet in Ireland compare with those in other countries? How many of their Irish outlets are in town centres and how many are outside the traditional town centres?

Mr. Donal Mackay

The best comparison can be made with our outlets in Australia, which came into operation one year after we started in Ireland. We found the planning process in Australia to be somewhat more progressive and we have 200 outlets there compared with 64 outlets in the Republic.

There is a difference in population.

Mr. Donal Mackay

That is the case, but our approach would not be different. We are dealing with the planning process in Australia in the same way as in Ireland with a similar resource, and this gives an indication of the difference in timescale.

How do the figures for the number of stores that Aldi targeted to open in Australia compare with the figure it targeted for Ireland?

Mr. Donal Mackay

We approach it in a sequential fashion. We put the same amount of resource in and we target to open as many as we can as we go forward. The targets are not fixed. We deal with the planning process with the resources we have in the region, because the regional structures are very similar in each of our operations.

How many planning applications for Aldi stores have been turned down?

Mr. Donal Mackay

I could not give an exact figure, but I could follow up by providing the information to the joint committee later.

In his submission Mr. Balfour used the word "neighbourhood" a great deal. The thrust of his recommendations are that the size for retail discount stores would be 1,800 sq. m, which should not be viewed as a cap. That, to me, is contrary to developing neighbourhoods. If a planning authority is developing a development or local area plan to keep communities intact and to develop neighbourhoods, it would restrict the size of discount retailers and have more of them rather than increase the size and therefore draw in a larger community. I ask Mr. Balfour to address that issue.

He referred to rezoning disused industrial units across the country. Has he come across much of that? Is it an obstacle or would it open barriers? He might indicate whether such rezoning is widespread across the country because I have come across such an issue.

My question is similar, if Deputy Clune does not mind me interrupting. What size of store would Mr. Balfour regard as optimal and should store size relate to the size of the local population in the urban setting concerned?

Mr. Denzell Balfour

The standard store that we would construct is currently approximately 1,600 sq. m and we would see that as fulfilling a neighbourhood function. We have examples throughout the country where it does fulfil a neighbourhood function. It provides a limited range of products. It would not provide a complete range of products and customers would come there for the majority of their shopping, and then can use other facilities within the neighbourhood area. With providing a 1,600 sq. m store, other businesses come into the neighbourhood such as pharmacies and launderettes. Therefore, the store provides a sort of centre for the local neighbourhood and reduces commuting times, etc.

What difference would an 1,800 sq. m store make?

Mr. Denzell Balfour

The bones of our submission was that currently the retail guidelines provide for stores of between 1,000 sq. m and 1,500 sq. m. However, it has been interpreted by local authority development plans in some circumstances as an ultimate cap on the size of the retail premises when the bones of the guidelines state it is approximate and should be seen as a guidance rather than a cap. What we are saying is that if they take into account 1,800 sq. m, then that will allow for the complete size of the discount food store to be built — at present, we are looking at stores of 1,600 sq. m.

On the industrial zoning of land, particularly in Dublin, a number of our stores have been successfully built on industrial zoned land and similarly, there are examples where stores have been refused permission on industrial zoned land. Given the way that the city has developed, many of those industrial areas have become engulfed by residential developments.

Mr. Donald Mackay

If I could expand on the point about the store size, our standard store size is for a net retail floor space of 1,125 sq. m. The reason for the 1,800 sq. m is that in some instances when we cannot build our standard store, or we are offered a leasehold opportunity, we have some examples where those stores, not the net floor space but the total floor space, are as large as 1,800 sq. m. The reason we state 1,800 sq. m is that it is a catch-all.

However, we believe that the 1,125 sq. m net floor space is the right size in every location irrespective of the population. When we gauge that we should open in a town or city, we will build a 1,125 sq. m store. We would not look to build larger than that. That is what we want to build. If the population would justify more units, then we would build additional stores. However, we believe the store with 1,125 sq. m net floor space serves a neighbourhood function.

Is Mr. Mackay stating Aldi is prevented from building the 1,125 sq. m store in some places?

Mr. Donald Mackay

We have been because the 1,125 sq. m has been interpreted as a cap. Because the 1,125 sq. m relates to net floor space, the gross floor space is over 1,500 sq. m with warehousing and ancillary services, and there are several examples of where we have not achieved it.

Is Mr. Mackay stating that Aldi would like to be able to build stores with gross floor space of 1,800 sq. m, including warehousing, etc., which is still a good bit less than the maximum size permitted to other stores?

Mr. Donald Mackay

Yes.

Mr. Mackay mentioned industrial sites and gives the impression in this document that Aldi would be willing to use industrial buildings, but that is not the case. However, I understand it to mean that Aldi would use industrial zoned lands and have its own standard build. Is that correct? There is a big difference in using existing empty buildings and using unused land.

Mr. Donald Mackay

Typically we would demolish any existing building on the site, principally brownfield derelict sites as opposed to greenfield industrial zoned sites.

It is repeatedly said that Aldi has only a limited number of products irrespective of the size of the store. What is the difference in the range of products in the smaller stores in comparison with the larger stores the company has built?

Is that pricing?

No, it is not pricing but the number of products. The point was that Aldi would stock a greater choice of products if it had a larger store. Are we talking about 200 more products? What is the number?

Mr. Donald Mackay

We have not submitted that we would stock more products.

That is what was said.

Mr. Denzell Balfour

No, I said that for consumers we would not stock the complete array of products they would purchase in a weekly shop. We would stock the majority of those products, but they would have to complement that shopping elsewhere.

Would Aldi stock all those products in a larger store?

Mr. Donald Mackay

We will stock a standard range in our standard stores. We will target a 1,125 sq. m area and we will have the same range in every store. When we have a smaller footprint, either because we are forced to or because we have taken a leasehold building where it is different from the 1,125 sq. m, we will endeavour to stock the same range. There is no change in range.

That answers my question.

How many stores has Aldi opened in 2008 and 2007 and how many does it plan to open in 2009?

Mr. Donald Mackay

We opened 12 in 2007, ten in 2008 and we are targeting 14 to 16 in 2009.

Aldi is growing steadily in the country.

Mr. Donald Mackay

Yes.

That does not suggest discrimination against Aldi in terms of the planning laws.

Mr. Donald Mackay

No, nor are we suggesting there is discrimination.

Aldi suggests there is discrimination against the discount store model.

Mr. Donald Mackay

We have been asked to make a submission as to whether there is anything within the planning guidelines that we would observe as being unusual. We are happy to work within the guidelines and we are expanding within the guidelines as currently laid down. We are working comfortably within the guidelines but when we look at them in detail they contain some anomalies. We have observed those anomalies. We are perfectly happy to continue as we are. We have four property directors working on acquiring and developing store sites. We intend to build a second distribution centre in Mitchelstown, County Cork, and develop out of Naas in County Kildare and Mitchelstown. We will not change what we are doing but will continue at the pace we are operating. If these changes were to be made and these barriers were to be removed, it is possible that we could expand to a greater degree.

What is the average number of employees per store, given that it is probably a template that is replicated around the country? In terms of buying local Irish produce, what is Aldi's policy on that issue?

Mr. Donald Mackay

We have an average of 15 employees per store. More than 40% of the groceries we sell in our stores are sourced in the Republic of Ireland from local suppliers.

How can we be assured that it is 40%? Is it locally sourced produce? When Aldi moves into Mitchelstown, an area which has a high level of agricultural activities, does it buy locally from those people? Has it producer groups that it deals it? How does Aldi source those products? When applying for planning permission, would Aldi make a commitment to source locally produced goods, which is important in the context of agriculture and local enterprises?

Mr. Donald Mackay

The 40% to which I refer is sourced from suppliers based in the Republic of Ireland. We do not source store by store because buying is a central function. Individual suppliers of fruit or vegetables source from around the country but we do not deliver direct to our stores. Instead, we operate a central distribution network from where we distribute goods in our own vehicles to our stores, so in that sense local sourcing is not carried out by each store. We have not, however, decentralised the buying function but have a buying team which is Irish and located in Naas.

The presentation referred to delays in planning, which many people have mentioned to me. We are looking at how local, as well as national, government operates because it is unacceptable for there to be unnecessary delays on the part of planners or An Bord Pleanála in building stores people need. I and many of my colleagues feel very strongly about this issue

I thank the witnesses from Aldi for their concise submission. We have the benefit of their earlier submission but wanted them to expand on the issues. I welcome the fact that they kept to the five minutes allotted because we have a very busy day and there may be other interruptions over which we have no control. The witnesses may know where they will be at the end of the day but we do not. Their contribution was very informative and useful to the committee's deliberations. Members asked a number of searching questions and I thank the witnesses for being so forthright in answering them. We will see them again tomorrow when we will discuss prices. We nearly strayed into discussing prices today but stuck to the issue of planning.

Mr. Donald Mackay

I thank the Chairman for inviting us.

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