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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT debate -
Tuesday, 3 Feb 2009

Musgrave Group.

I thank the representatives of the Musgrave Group for their patience as they suffered the vagaries of parliamentary democracy. Life inside the Parliament does not run as smoothly as one would expect in the outside world. I am glad to welcome Ms Edel Clancy, communications director of the Musgrave Group, Mr. Donal Horgan, CEO of SuperValu, and Mr.Chris Martin, CEO of the Musgrave Group. I know the witnesses have a busy schedule and I ask them to be as brief as possible in summarising their submission. We have allotted five minutes for each submission but there will be an opportunity for questions afterwards.

I draw attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I note the presence of our former colleague, Jim Glennon, in the public Gallery. Everybody who has left these Houses seems to be doing well. Mr. Glennon sat on this side of the table for some time and I welcome him back.

Mr. Chris Martin

I thank the committee for inviting the Musgrave Group to contribute to this important debate. I am accompanied by Mr. Donal Horgan, who represents SuperValu and Centra in the Republic, and Ms Edel Clancy, our communications director.

Our business is about partnering food retailers who own their own stores. As such, we are not a food retailer and we do not submit planning applications on our own behalf. However, together with our retailers we have a keen interest in ensuring the existence of an effective planning system that brings choice and value to Irish consumers. In these extremely challenging times, when our shoppers are struggling with their weekly food budgets and demanding value, we will speak to the fact that rather than inhibiting competition or leading to higher food prices, these guidelines support communities and ensure that town centres thrive. They also support jobs and consumer choice.

As legislators, members of the committee will appreciate that the issue involves more than commerce. The real issue is the kind of Ireland we desire. Over our long history, we have brought together a network of entrepreneurs who collectively with Musgrave employ 35,000 people in this country.

We have also set up our business model in Northern Ireland and Great Britain and we now support a network of some 2,000 stores in the United Kingdom. With this experience we are able to see at first hand the contrast in the planning regimes of the two countries.

Today, we make three points that underline the importance of retaining the retail planning guidelines in Ireland. First, the guidelines are not a barrier to new entrants nor do they inhibit competition. Second, bigger stores do not mean cheaper food prices, rather they simply concentrate all retail activity in larger stores. Third, out-of-town retailing does not create net new jobs. In fact, it leads to job losses as businesses in town centres are forced to close.

Since 2001, the Irish grocery market has seen a rapid expansion with a 50% increase in retail space to the end of 2006. Over this period major retailers such Tesco, Dunnes and Aldi increased their store numbers by 61% and the symbol retailers such as SuperValu, Spar and Londis by 66%. This has led to increased choice for consumers with most people having access to over a dozen stores within a ten minute drive. The guidelines have facilitated the development of a highly competitive and diverse marketplace.

The Competition Authority would like to see the removal of the cap on grocery retail space as it believes that large-space retailers will bring reduced prices to the consumer. The authority does not present any research to support this. Its argument is based on the assumption that greater shelf space will be dedicated to food, thereby creating increased choice and competition.

Our experience is that larger stores do not provide greater shelf space for food, but more space for non-food. Research from IGD, the leading authority on international grocery and retail trends, demonstrates that larger formats dedicate up to 30% of their space to non-food such as books, DVDs, electrical products, toys and household items.

The location of these stores is of paramount importance. If placed out of town they pull business from the town centre and eventually lead to the closure of smaller food and non-food stores, thus reducing competition and choice.

Surely it is important for the maintenance of vibrant communities in Ireland that we bring shops to people rather than people to shops. In the UK, the average consumer travels 893 miles annually to shop for food. The impact on the consumer and the environment is significant.

Last week many members of the committee saw the impact of the planning free-for-all on Ballyclare where the town centre was badly affected by the development of out-of-town retailing and superstores. Ballyclare underlines the critical importance of the sequential test so that development happens in town centres first.

Proponents for changing the planning regulations not only argue that larger stores reduce prices but that they also create jobs. The facts state otherwise. The UK National Retail Planning Forum carried out an examination of the impact on local employment of the opening of 96 superstores throughout England and Wales. The forum concluded that each superstore opening resulted in an average net loss of employment of 276 full-time equivalents.

This research was replicated by IGD which also found that new superstores mean fewer employment opportunities. In its research, IGD found that during a two-year period following the opening of 93 superstores there was a net job loss in food retailing alone of 270 jobs. The actual job losses were undoubtedly far greater since the study did not include non-food retail.

The impact is also more severe in rural areas where retailing is often the largest employer. In Ireland, we must remember that independent retailers are based in the community and they source the majority of their services locally. Take local retailers out of the equation and what happens to the local insurance broker, solicitor, painter, etc.? Local retailers are part of the fabric of local communities; superstores are not.

Vibrant town centres are important, not just for business and the economy. They are also the heart of living communities. Do we really want nothing in town centres but pubs, bookies and fast-food joints, as has happened in so many UK towns?

The retail planning guidelines are an example of where we in Ireland have got planning right. I would urge the Deputies and Senators not to take a risk with Irish jobs or risk the future of Irish communities. The retail planning guidelines need to be retained to preserve jobs in vibrant communities as well as real long-term choice for Irish consumers. The positive benefits from good planning are immense. The negative consequences of poor planning can last for generations and are very difficult, if not impossible, to undo. I thank the members of the committee for the opportunity to present at this important time.

I thank Mr. Martin for the presentation. Are Musgrave outlets generally in town centres or on the edge of town? We heard definitions of all sorts of towns today. Are most of Musgrave stores in neighbourhood centres or town centres, and what is the average size of its stores? I realise Musgrave has three brands and I ask for the average size of each.

The Competition Authority sparked this debate off. It seems to maintain that the guidelines are affecting price and acting as a barrier to entry. Is that the case? Has the Competition Authority been in consultation with Musgrave? Has it asked for any data from Musgrave to back up the company's view?

Mr. Martin might give a breakdown of the number of people Musgrave employs, both part time and full time. I accept that many people Musgrave employs would be returning to the workforce. From my own experience, Musgrave seems to have flexible working arrangements.

Does Musgrave seek any changes to the planning system? Mr. Martin stated clearly the company does not want the planning guidelines changed, but what of the planning system? Is Musgrave's experiencing delays in that regard? We heard many presentations this morning, most of which stated there are problems and delays with planning. I ask him to comment on that because it is part of what we are looking at.

Is Mr. Martin familiar with a 130,000 sq. ft. development across the Border because I find it hard to believe that others were not? Are such centres a major problem for all other retailers? Is there a hoover approach? Will that have a serious effect on towns, etc.? Should we be looking at different versions of the cap for different sized towns? Is there any justification for looking at providing for a sliding scale approach for large towns?

Mr. Chris Martin

I will ask Mr. Horgan to speak about the size of stores and I will pick up the other questions.

Mr. Donal Horgan

On the first point raised on neighbourhood versus town centre, given the growth of our business over many years in our SuperValu and Centra brands, the vast majority of our stores are located in town centres. I will come back to the committee with the precise statistics.

In Centra the average store size is approximately 3,000 sq. ft. which is very much a convenience format. In SuperValu, which is our supermarket brand, the average size of a store is approximately 14,000 sq. ft, and the stores range in size from 10,000 sq. ft. to 22,000 sq. ft.

Mr. Chris Martin

There is no evidence that larger stores demonstrate lower prices. We certainly see that in our experience in the United Kingdom as well. As a result, we are firmly of the view that the cap helps stores develop in the right place.

We must come back with information on the breakdown of full-time and part-time employees. Otherwise, I would be putting a finger in the air.

We do not submit planning applications or participate in the planning process. Our retailers do. The only comment we would get back from them is that if there is a way of speeding the process up, then they would be willing to participate in it. Clearly it is in everyone's interest to get to the right decision as quickly as possible.

Deputy English mentioned the store in Banbridge in Northern Ireland. My understanding is that it is approximately 130,000 sq. ft. I was aware of it because our retailers would have mentioned it. They would have had a concern with the store being so large in relation to the Northern Ireland population of 1.5 million. In my visits to our retailers they would have presented their view that it was out of kilter with what communities really wanted because of its sheer size.

Deputy English's final question was on the version of the cap. Our belief is that the cap has served Ireland extremely well. It has certainly helped in getting the store right in terms of size. It is interesting to note that as stores get larger they get filled with non-food items in addition to food and they do not become just large food retailers. The real question for us is on retaining the cap but also retaining the test that ensures planning authorities look at developing town centres first rather than out-of-town centres.

Musgrave also has stores in Northern Ireland.

Mr. Chris Martin

Yes.

As CEO, would Mr. Martin be aware of everything happening in the South and the North?

Mr. Chris Martin

I would like to say that I was. However——

If there was a significant development, would Mr. Martin be aware of it?

Mr. Chris Martin

I chair our Northern Ireland board every quarter, so I sit down with our team there and have a full board meeting. Part of the process is to go through developments that are taking place within the country and the concerns of retailers have certainly been brought to my attention as regards large developments within the province.

Does the Musgrave delegation agree with our approach in seeking common ground with our colleagues in Northern Ireland as regards the serious pressures being experienced on both sides, especially along the Border?

Mr. Chris Martin

The real issue for us is that in Northern Ireland the planning process could have been controlled earlier. There has been significant out-of-town development there. The issue as regards a common approach will be interesting in terms of finding the right solution. We have a real concern that these large superstores, to use the Deputy's term, have a significant "hoovering" effect on towns and town centres.

The delegation's position is clearly at variance with the Competition Authority, which says that the cap on store size is inhibiting competition and indeed the evidence cited by the Musgrave Group is quite compelling. However, given Musgrave's move from the Republic into an environment where no cap is in place, obviously it has no fear of such a business environment.

Mr. Chris Martin

I shall answer that in a slightly different manner. We have taken the opportunity to work with retail partners in Northern Ireland and Great Britain, and interestingly, my earlier career was with ASDA in the early 1980s at a time when it was developing out-of-town sites. The consequence of such developments by ASDA and other multiples was the demise of the high street. It is interesting that over the last five to ten years many of those multiples have begun to move back into the high street, and that is where we saw an opportunity, working with our retailers in Great Britain. That is why we are seeing a dynamic, namely, consumers wanting to come back to the heart of their towns.

I must declare an interest in that I am a director of a company which supplies some of Musgrave's customers or outlets. As a journalist said to me recently when he heard that we supplied the HSE, "It certainly does not cramp your style". People can take that as a——

We shall be calling into those stores on our next visit north.

I apologise to Mr. Martin and his colleagues for missing the presentation. Musgrave has been around a while and the business has continued to grow. Other stores right across the State have continued to grow, with the retail cap in place. Musgrave has not seen a need for it. What would the delegates say is their biggest store at present? Given that the entire grocery retail sector is growing, I do not understand why these other people see a need for these massive stores. Perhaps the delegates might address this from the retail perspective for the benefit of lay people such as members of the committee.

Mr. Chris Martin

I shall ask Mr. Horgan to comment as well. However, the point to recognise is that we clearly work with retailers who live and stay in the local community. They work out the right shape and size of store that suits the individual community. We have seen a range of stores in terms of size for SuperValu, Centra and Daybreak — ranging from the small to the large store. Some of our larger stores are in the region of 24,000 sq. ft. to 26,000 sq. ft.

Mr. Donal Horgan

Our largest store is actually 24,000 sq. ft. It is difficult to say what is an optimum size, because different towns will require different store sizes, but it is generally in the region of 22,000 sq. ft., which provides a very compelling food offer for consumers in those locations.

When Deputy Morgan references the point as regards significant growth still happening in the market and asks why multiples want to open bigger stores, the philosophy of Musgrave is to have local retailers in the heart of their communities and those stores centred there. The flair of the local entrepreneurial retailer, coupled with the scale of our support services to them, is the formula that ensures all our brands continue to perform well. It brings that unique local flavour to retailing in Ireland, which is not as evident as a dimension in some of the other local markets in which we operate. That, perhaps, provides an opportunity, especially in the UK market, to introduce our type of store size and fill a need that does not exist because of the plethora of superstores that are not necessarily meeting all consumer needs.

Can the delegation give us some more information on the sequential test and perhaps indicate where we might find more data in this regard? As regards the three countries in which Musgrave operates, Spain, the UK and Ireland, do planning regulations outside Ireland dictate policy much more than in this State?

Mr. Chris Martin

I shall answer two of those questions and then again defer to Mr. Horgan. The sequential test requires planning authorities to look, first of all, at what is available in a town centre before looking at opportunities outside. We also participate, as the committee knows, in the United Kingdom, and one of the issues there is that this test is being re-examined. It is being proposed that what was previously described as a needs test is now being assessed as an impact test. It is now a matter of looking at far more than what is available in terms of site, for example, the degree of competition within the town centre itself. There is a problem with that because the impact test has not actually been defined. There is a good deal of debate taking place at the moment as to how it will operate. It is fair to say that what we see in Ireland is very relevant to the type of country it is. We are concerned, and that has given us an opportunity in Britain, to look for high street stores to which consumers will return after the development of major out-of-town sites.

Mr. Donal Horgan

Just to reinforce what Mr. Martin has said as regards the sequential test, our desire is to continue to see town-centre development prioritised. Thereafter, one can look at edge-of-town or out-of-town, but certainly the latter is almost a location of last resort. To echo Mr. Martin's point in our earlier presentation, it is a question of bringing shops to people and not people to shops. Developments should be sited in communities so that we may continue to have very strong community-based retailing here in Ireland.

I must apologise to the Musgrave delegation for crediting Tesco with its distribution centre in Kilcock. It was just a slip of the tongue.

What about sustainable development in communities? What has been the effect of the Musgrave organisation on communities in which its outlets are located? Perhaps the delegates will talk a little about the involvement of those outlets with the communities. As regards the distribution centre in Kilcock, for example, are there contacts with farmers locally, does Musgrave take in agricultural produce there, or is that all dealt with through local outlets?

Mr. Chris Martin

Our stores do far more because they are locally owned. They are not just local employers but they access local produce, fruit and vegetables, and so on. It is in their interests to be good neighbours in terms of doing the right thing, so they participate in activities such as the Tidy Towns competition and so on.

In terms of supporting local suppliers, we adapt our distribution network to make it more available to local suppliers, who want to support a small number of stores. They might not be able to support the whole network nationally, but they can support five or six. We filter in that cost factor within our organisation to support people. We also allow retailers to access local produce as well. As an organisation, Musgrave works with Enterprise Ireland on the first sale initiative, and through that we have supported companies such as Clonakilty Black Pudding and Sunshine Juice in terms of the development of those businesses. This goes right to the heart of the support Musgrave gives, which is directed at both the local retailer and the local supplier.

Mr. Donal Horgan

I can give some additional evidence of that community support, given that we are a sports-mad country. It is not unusual to see both teams playing in a local junior hurling final being sponsored by the local SuperValu. There is no conflict of interest in supporting the competition itself as well as both teams in the final. This is visible evidence of support of local communities and increasingly stores allow their facilities to be used almost as community centres. It is not unusual to see community development groups gathering in meeting rooms in such centres. The atmosphere within the stores facilitates friendly interaction between neighbours.

In terms of support for agricultural produce, we have worked hard over the past number of years to establish local co-op groups and I will speak parochially of Cork, to give an example. Many of our onions are sourced in Ireland and we set up a co-op in the Bandon region to bring that product to our distribution centre. This enables farmers to serve not only the Bandon area but a much wider range of stores through our extensive distribution network. We are constantly on the lookout for opportunities to support such projects and we are currently sponsoring a new initiative aimed at bringing young and emerging artisan food producers to markets. We hope to give them not only distribution support but marketing, packaging and product development support. We want to enable them to get their businesses off the ground and this is important in the current economic circumstances.

Can the Musgrave Group sort out the Cork hurlers?

Mr. Donal Horgan

Unfortunately, some problems are beyond resolution.

I think that is a job for the former Deputy, Mr. Jim Glennon.

We discussed car parking with witnesses this morning and I am conscious that some members of the Musgrave Group are in town centres and have no car parking facilities while others are in neighbourhoods with such facilities. What is the feedback from members on this issue? It was suggested at the discussions in Stormont last week that we should consider parking charges for out-of-town parking to level the playing field as the money could be used to subsidise parking in town centres. What do members of the Musgrave Group think of this because it forms a big part of the problem?

As a corollary to that, do out-of-town centres have advantages over town centres, such as unlimited free parking near motorways? They offer an all-in-one shopping experience in an enclosed mall with greater control over on-site competition, something the Competition Authority seems to forget. These centres alienate retailers in town centres by lowering footfall, the lifeblood of such communities and retailers.

Mr. Chris Martin

No doubt, the provision of car parking can make shopping easier for customers. During the latest hike in oil prices, particularly in Britain, people travelled less to superstores and tried to use local facilities more. It is important that planners consider car parking in town centres as parking charges are a disadvantage to the use of town centres. There must be equity between town centres and edge-of-town developments and people must be encouraged to use town centres as much as possible.

I thank the representatives of the Musgrave Group very much for attending and assisting the committee in its deliberations. Our job is to investigate how planning guidelines will impact on new retail outlines in Ireland and the contribution of the witnesses was very informative, forthright and frank. The inquisitorial nature of the questions indicates the degree of thought given to this subject by members of the committee. I believe the witnesses will be here again tomorrow so they will be sick of us. Round one is the easy round. The witnesses are in the dressing room at the moment but when they go on the pitch, as the former Deputy, Mr. Jim Glennon, will attest, there may be a rolling maul. We look forward to seeing them tomorrow.

The witnesses may forward any information that they did not have to hand today to the committee within the next week or ten days. They will be given a copy of the final report.

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