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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT (Sub-Committee on Job Creation Through Use of Renewable Energy Resources) debate -
Tuesday, 30 Jun 2009

Job Creation Opportunities in the Biomass Sector: Discussion with Imperative Energy Limited.

I welcome Mr. Joe O'Carroll, managing director and Mr. Peter Doyle, commercial director of Imperative Energy Limited who will discuss job creation opportunities within the biomass sector. On my own behalf and on behalf of the other sub-committee members I apologise most sincerely to Mr. O'Carroll and Mr. Doyle for the cancellation of the last meeting they were invited to address. It was most regrettable that we put you to the trouble of coming to the Houses and then cancelled the meeting. However, given the exceptional circumstances of that week, just after the results of the European and local elections, it was unavoidable. Such are the vagaries of politics. I hope you will accept our apologies for the inconvenience caused to you. Today we are here and we are very eager to hear your ideas and suggestions. Thank you very much for your attendance.

Before we begin I draw attention to the fact that members of this sub-committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I now invite Mr. O'Carroll to make his opening statement.

Mr. Joe O’Carroll

Thank you. There is no problem in regard to the cancellation of the meeting. We fully appreciate the circumstances given the proximity to the election results. I will quickly run through a short presentation with my colleague, Mr. Peter Doyle, who is the commercial director, to give an overview of Imperative Energy and, more specifically, to talk about the job creation initiatives we have announced, and make some very specific recommendations that may be taken on board by the sub-committee when making its final report.

We appreciate two things. We have reviewed the terms of reference of the sub-committee. We will, therefore, keep our recommendations fairly precise. We also appreciate the state of the national finances so we will focus on zero cost policy initiatives. Before moving to the specific recommendations I thank the sub-committee for inviting us. I am delighted to see so many Kildare people here.

The company, Imperative Energy, was founded at the end of 2007 when it was launched in Dublin by the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan. The shareholders include the management team, me, Mr. Peter Doyle and a couple of other individuals, and Green Belt Limited, Ireland's largest private forestry company which manages approximately 200,000 acres of forestry. The opportunity for our business, which is converting biomass to energy, comes out of the long-term State commitment to the forestry programme. We are at a stage where the private forestry sector has become productive and we are now in the business of harvesting and converting to energy. Out of that stems the job creation opportunities.

In addition, we have forged a number of strategic partnerships with some world renowned companies, principally, Schmidt & Partner Engineering AG, a Swiss-based boiler manufacturer with global representation. We are delighted to have been selected as its sole representative for the UK and Ireland.

Imperative Energy is also a founding member of the bioenergy competence centre here in Ireland. This is an initiative headed up by Enterprise Ireland and competitors of ours who have come together to collaborate on strategic research initiatives.

My background is in forestry but I also worked with the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food before entering the private sector to establish Imperative Energy. My colleague, Mr. Peter Doyle, has a varied background and has been involved in a number of start-up and early-stage companies in international business, IT, communications, engineering and construction. Imperative Energy is a bioenergy solutions provider for the commercial and industrial sectors, that means we take wood biomass and convert it to energy. That energy may be in the form of electricity or heat, through hot water or steam. We design purpose-built, bespoke plants at clients' sites. We take responsibility for design and the supply of equipment, we install the equipment and operate and maintain it. More importantly from the client's point of view, we fully finance the project and retain ownership of the equipment. We completely manage the supply chain and thereby allow our clients to switch to green energy at no capital cost. We make money by entering into long-term supply contracts with clients. We charge them a rate per megawatt hour for the energy we deliver over a ten or 15-year contract. Our business model can help fast track the uptake of biomass because we take the risks relating to technology, fuel supply and the raising of capital away from the clients, which allows them to switch instantly to renewable energy. We think this is an ideal business model for the public sector.

We installed the largest biomass solution in the public sectors in Ireland and the UK at a hospital in Downpatrick, Northern Ireland. It is a 1.65 MW biomass boiler that uses 1,800 tonnes of pellets, which come from a company in Enniskillen. The pellets are all sourced on the island of Ireland. The installation replaces 1.5 million litres of oil, which is not sourced on the island of Ireland, and the fuel saving to the client is in excess of £275,000 per annum. In other words, the cost of the biomass installation was paid back in less than one year. The real motivation for the client taking this action was to reduce carbon emissions and reach the targets set in this regard under the carbon reduction commitment. The client reduced carbon emissions by 2,500 tonnes per annum.

The presentation prepared for our previous scheduled meeting shows we were shortlisted for the UK renewable energy awards and we were highly commended at the ceremony in London last week. In terms of the future development of the company, we have set up a second office in the UK and have taken on new staff members. We now have offices in London and Cheshire. Most of our activity is in the UK at the moment, for a variety of reasons. We are actively recruiting people in Ireland, particularly project managers and technical sales managers. Our latest installation is a hospital project in Tunbridge Wells, close to Gatwick Airport. This is quite similar to the installation in Downpatrick. This week we are installing a system at the Youghal leisure centre in Cork.

One of our major recent announcements was the launch of BioSpark, a new project being developed in Claremorris. This is particularly relevant to the work of this committee because, when completed, the project will create 180 new jobs — 80 directly on the site and 100 indirectly through supply chain management. The BioSpark initiative is a joint venture with a local company called Sustainable Biopolymers and we are delighted to partner it. The project involves a bio-processing facility that will use natural fibres and biomass, such as wood and straw, and will produce a range of high-value products. In addition to this we will develop a biomass combined heat and power plant on the site. NUI Galway will be our exclusive research and pre-commercialisation partner on this project.

Aside from BioSpark, we are finalising a round of fund-raising and have raised €30 million from UK companies. Essentially, this is foreign direct investment in the future growth of Imperative Energy on the island of Ireland. This is quite an achievement in the current climate as it is difficult to raise any kind of finance at the moment, be it equity or debt finance. We are happy to have achieved a significant milestone that gives us the resources to execute projects like BioSpark. We have plans to replicate that in several other locations around the country. We chose Claremorris as a start because there is quite a significant biomass resource in the area. That part of the country has significant forest resource and we are locating the plant close to the resource.

However, we have plans for other areas. We are looking at Carlow because of its central location in terms of tillage activity. Straw is obviously a significant potential feed stock. We are looking at some other projects in Naas and Portlaoise as well. In addition to our Irish activity, we have identified several suitable sites in the UK, including one just to the east of London on which we are conducting a fairly intensive survey this week. In terms of Ireland, what I have said relates to Imperative Energy Limited.

In terms of the opportunity, there are a few headline points to raise in the context of biomass in Ireland. In the current financial crisis everybody seeks to determine our net natural competitive advantages and growing biomass is certainly one of those. The biomass yields in Ireland are higher than anywhere else in Europe. In addition, although many agricultural enterprises suffer because of commodity prices at present, we have a strong agricultural heritage. There is a significant knowledge base on how to grow crops, manage supply chains, and so on. The great advantage of using biomass as an output rather than foodstuffs is that it does not suffer the same price volatility as providing certain inputs into the food sector. To contradict the first two points, there is a low level of forest cover in Ireland. There is a significant opportunity to considerably increase the forest cover. While it is not absolutely essential for Imperative Energy Limited's short-term aims, we would certainly encourage the sub-committee's final report to underline the importance of maintaining the forestry programme in Ireland.

Obviously, there is a number of possible renewable energy sources. The real advantage to bioenergy in terms of contribution to try to stimulate economic activity is that bioenergy is far more employment intensive than any other form of renewable energy if used appropriately. Certainly, many other countries look to use biomass to co-fire coal-burning stations but that is an incredibly inefficient use of biomass which is, after all, a scarce resource. We would certainly encourage all policy initiatives to ensure that biomass is used as efficiently as possible, that is, in heat only installations or in combined heat and power installations.

Given that is the opportunity, how do we maximise value in terms of job creation? I stated at the start that we would only focus in on zero cost policy initiatives because we appreciate the difficulty of finding any State funding for initiatives at present. There are two on which we want to focus: first, trying to switch across all public bodies to using renewable heat; and second, switching future gas distribution networks to district heating.

On the first point, we welcome the OPW initiative. The tender documents have just appeared on e-tenders which would indicate that the OPW is considering installing a biomass system for the Dáil and the surrounding Government Buildings, and that is certainly a welcome initiative. We acknowledge the OPW's leadership in that regard.

There are several other longer-term policy initiatives. We would like to see tax breaks for green business parks and an increased incentive for producing electricity through biomass combined heat and power. We would encourage the relevant authorities dealing with renewable energy here to look at policy initiatives in the UK, specifically in terms of renewable heat incentive rather than a capital grant as it will bring about the objectives far more cost-effectively than giving capital grants towards the purchase of equipment.

The benefits of these policy initiatives would obviously be to reduce energy imports and carbon emissions and to create the market poll for biomass, that is, forestry and energy crops, which would stimulate rural employment and, obviously, strengthen Irish bioenergy companies which can then springbroad into export markets.

I will focus in a little more detail on the two specific initiatives. The first one is to try to switch the public sector across to using renewable heat. Based on our estimates, the public sector — all public buildings — uses approximately 430 million litres of oil equivalent every year just heating the buildings, that is, space heating and whatever hot-water usage, at an approximate cost of €300 million. What is certain is that all of the oil used is not generated from the island. It is all imported, with a significant flow of State funding overseas. The current heat procurement process requires the relevant public body to find a capital budget, which is difficult in the present climate. The body concerned will then appoint a consultant to inspect the system and run a tender to purchase and install the boiler. It will run a separate tender for fuel supply and an additional one for ongoing service and maintenance.

The process of procuring heat is labour intensive and it is capital intensive for the public sector. Our suggestion is for the public sector to purchase the desired input, namely, the heat, rather than buy the component parts. That would open up the market to companies such as ours. There is no monopoly in this particular sector because a number of similar companies operate in the space. It would allow us to bid to supply the public sector with renewable heat under long-term contracts. If we secured long-term contracts to supply heat we would be able to put the capital to work to design the systems, supply the equipment and look after the ongoing service, maintenance and fuel supply. It would allow the public sector to switch to renewable energy without any concern for the design or the technical specification of the equipment, and without having to worry about servicing, maintenance or where the biomass will come from.

If the entire public sector switched to renewable energy it would stimulate a market for some 1.2 million tonnes of biomass to displace the equivalent of 430 million litres of oil. That would require approximately 70,000 hectares of biomass under sustainable production. By opening up the market, without any stimulus in the form of grant aid, we would stimulate the market pull for biomass. Not only would that allow us to achieve our renewable energy targets, it would also allow the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to surpass its objectives for the establishment of forestry and energy crops. Long-term contracts of between ten and 15 years would enable us to provide absolute price stability to farmers for their products. Farmers would not have to spend all their input costs establishing a crop without any idea of what they might get for that crop in a couple of months' time.

The second initiative relates to district heating. Gas distribution involves large gas transmission lines which take gas from the interconnectors or the Kinsale field and, in the future, will take it from off the west coast into the wider network and to local transmission networks in each town. This network is currently being expanded and there are significant plans to continue the expansion despite the fact that the macro picture suggests we should try to wean ourselves off natural gas, rather than increase our reliance on it. There is a programme to spend €25 million on installing gas distribution networks to a number of towns, including Cashel, Cahir, Gort, Loughrea, Ballinrobe and Monasterevin.

There are also plans for gas distribution networks to be established in another dozen towns. This is a significant lost opportunity because it will involve putting in infrastructure which, in ten years, will be hugely reliant on imported natural gas or liquefied petroleum gas. We would like this money to be spent on a hot water system as opposed to a natural gas distribution system. In each of the towns in question, streets will be dug up, as will people's gardens. Companies will be part of the network and gas boilers will be put into individual premises to convert gas to hot water for space heating. If money is to be spent digging up roads we would like hot water pipes to be installed as part of the process. Gas transmission could still take place but there would be a large gas boiler on the edge of town generating hot water which would be pumped around the town. We could then start to integrate a certain percentage of biomass into the system. This is not a novel concept but is used in virtually every member state of the EU. Members of the sub-committee have visited Güssing in Austria so will not be surprised at that fact but it would be a novel development in Ireland. It would be a zero-cost initiative because money is already being spent digging up towns. Why not put in an infrastructure that can handle an increased amount of renewable energy rather than something that can only be supplied with a fuel source which will increasingly be imported?

In addition, there would be a significant improvement in air quality, particularly in respect of particulate emissions, because rather than installing thousands of boilers into such towns, centralised boilers would be installed on the towns' edges with an increased possibility to put in engineering solutions to scrub emissions and so on. In the context of the BioSpark development at Claremorris that I mentioned, we have undertaken a study to ascertain whether we could roll out a district heating network for Claremorris. It is a town of approximately 3,000 people and we will have a combined heat and power, CHP, plant on the edge of town that will produce electricity. Consequently, we will feed the heat into a local district heating network as opposed to the current position, in which everyone uses oils as a primary source of heat because Claremorris does not have access to gas. It would involve weaning people off oil and putting them on to an energy source derived from biomass harvested within a 30 mile radius of Claremorris, which is far more sustainable in the future. The diagram on the next slide in the presentation provides an indication of what the solution would look like. While we do not suggest high-rise development in each of the relevant towns, the graphic gives the impression that instead of having individual gas boilers in every apartment and house, there would be a centralised energy centre on the edge of town and a heating network to transport or distribute that heat to individual heat meters. End users, such as apartment or house owners, still will have meters in their homes and still will receive a bill from a utility every two months. It simply is that the energy would come from biomass, as opposed to from natural gas.

These are the two zero-cost policy initiatives we want the sub-committee to consider in its final report. As for the longer-term initiatives I mentioned, I encourage the sub-committee to guide the relevant Department and State agencies towards examining the incentive for biomass combined heat and power in more detail because the existing offering simply is not competitive relative to what is on offer throughout the rest of Europe. In addition, Imperative Energy Limited would encourage a movement away from capital grants and towards a renewable heat incentive. Essentially, as this would become a feed-in tariff for renewable heat, it would reward those who generate renewable energy, unlike grants, which simply reward people who buy equipment that they may or may not ever use. In addition, arising from our competitive advantage in growing biomass, we certainly perceive green business parks such as the BioSpark development to be a key way in which Ireland can attract inward investment by allowing companies to enter completely carbon-neutral green energy business parks, in which all their heat, process steam and electricity would be derived from local sustainable resources. The other long-term commitment would be to underline the need to commit to the forestry programme to ensure that biomass is available to us in the long term. That is all I want to say and I am happy to take any questions in this regard from members.

I thank Mr. O'Carroll for his opening statement and now will invite questions. As members have an extremely busy schedule, I propose that all questions should be taken together and Mr. O'Carroll then will be given time to answer them all at once, rather than going backwards and forwards.

I welcome Mr. O'Carroll and Mr. Doyle. Some time ago, I met Mr. O'Carroll and discussed renewable energy with him. I am very much in favour of his ideas and the manner in which he is driving this issue. One must bear in mind this is a new company, I believe it was formed in 2007, which has made great progress between then and now. It has the energy and the ability to drive this issue. Mr. O'Carroll's comments on gas pipelines between towns were interesting. For example, he mentioned Monasterevin and made the point that it would make good sense to provide central heating and water pipelines at the same time as the gas pipelines. If this did not happen, could his organisation provide the infrastructure and renewable energy independently of any other source? Could his company undertake a programme in a town or village to provide renewable energy? When I met Mr. O'Carroll previously, we spoke of a small local area in which development was taking place and where doing so would be profitable. He indicated that his company provides equipment, boilers, etc., and that it obtains a return over a ten or 15-year period. That makes a great deal of sense. When the sub-committee visited the town of Güssing in Austria, we discovered that this type of activity was already occurring there. Plant and infrastructure were provided in small local areas and projects were driven by local companies. It must be accepted that while those in Güssing commenced operations on greenfield sites, in Ireland we are starting with an environment that is already built. We must provide the infrastructure within that framework.

Mr. O'Carroll referred to the provision of funding and grants to people who are in the business of providing renewables rather than supplying it in respect of equipment. I do not know whether that would work, particularly in light of the fact that people in Ireland are prone to apply for grants to carry out improvements to their homes, to install boilers, etc. However, we do not have a tendency to become involved in the production of the infrastructure necessary for the provision of a facility.

In the context of the creation of jobs, Mr. O'Carroll referred to his company's developments in London and Cheshire in England. Does the company plan to establish offices in Ireland or are such offices already in place? What are the company's projections for the next two years for the Irish market? How does it hope to drive its business here? Will it use a similar model to that which it employs in England or will a different model be used?

I welcome our guests and was impressed by their presentation. My first point relates to the Downshire Hospital project, in respect of which an impressive payback was achieved in less than one year. Other witnesses who appeared before the sub-committee indicated that it took much longer for them to achieve a payback in respect of their activities in the green energy sector. It is certainly surprising that the payback period in respect of the project to which I refer was so short. Obviously the payback on any project reflects the point its development has reached at any given time. If it is a particularly inefficient operation, it might be easier to achieve a payback. Will Mr. O'Carroll comment on that matter and on the subject of payback in general?

My second point relates to biomass yields. Mr. O'Carroll indicated that Ireland has the highest biomass yields in Europe. Do issues relating to the quality and drying of product negate this?

Deputy Fitzpatrick referred to the provision of renewable heat incentives rather than capital grants. Will Mr. O'Carroll expand on how such a scheme would work?

With regard to long-term contracts, obviously Imperative Energy Limited has some sense of the technology that is available at present and can deliver certain solutions based on particular technologies. However, if another company has a long-term contract with Imperative Energy Limited and if a technology that could bring about a quantum leap forward in performance emerged, is it not the case that the former would be stuck with the latter for ten or 15 years and would not be able to take advantage of the alternative technologies which might become available?

Mr. O'Carroll indicated that the launch of BioSpark would result in the creation of 80 direct and 100 indirect jobs. Is the calculation relating to the creation of indirect jobs theoretical or is he confident that such jobs can be delivered? On occasion, such jobs are somewhat aspirational in nature.

I welcome our guests. I apologise that I was not available to meet them on the previous occasion. Dublin City Council and many other local authorities are currently formulating development plans. What sort of input does Imperative Energy Limited have into such plans? Do our guests have any engagement with local authorities in this regard and how do they see them embracing this entire concept? Mr. O'Carroll referred to the supply of energy to the public sector, which represents a massive opportunity. Where are the major obstacles? The witnesses referred to companies competing to supply long-term contracts. How long is a long-term contract?

I thank the Chair for the opportunity to speak, even though I am not a member of the sub-committee. Deputy Fitzpatrick has asked many of the questions I would have asked. I welcome Mr. O'Carroll and Mr. Doyle and am pleased to hear their presentations, particularly as they affect Claremorris, County Mayo, and the joint venture with Sustainable Biopolymers. Much work has gone into this and the project will be of great importance to my region. Regardless of what Mr. O'Carroll said about gas, we want gas in the region and it is very important to get it. The pipeline has been laid in Claremorris but if both could work in tandem it would be fantastic. I must leave to go to another meeting.

The presentation is self-explanatory and I am impressed with it and what Imperative Energy Limited does. It will form a major part of our report. What is proposed is providing for purpose-built utilities, such as a body or a privately owned set-up. Does Imperative Energy Limited have to deal with EirGrid or ESB? I get the impression that EirGrid and ESB are not fully convinced by small-scale production such as this. This sub-committee is convinced by it because members have visited Güssing. We do not get the same buy-in from larger authorities.

I refer to zero cost policy initiatives and tax breaks for green business practices. I presume we are allowed do this under EU law and that there is no conflict with competition law. I like what Imperative Energy is saying and we will recommend something similar.

I agree with Imperative Energy on seeking incentives for production rather than capital grants towards buying machinery, which does not lead to the best results. Will investors buy into this and will banks put the money up front, knowing that there will be incentives at the production stage rather than the setting up stage? Businesses have problems getting money as it is and we must move fast in this sector. This might be a better way to get quicker results, providing the money comes from elsewhere if the Government does not give capital grants.

I welcome Mr. O'Carroll and Mr. Doyle. They say that if there was gas insulation, Imperative Energy Limited could install the hot water piping as well. What is the cost? I imagine hot water piping is far costlier to install than gas piping. Mr. O'Carroll and Mr. Doyle referred to towns being supplied by units on the edge of the town. How do they see the further development of a town in respect of boilers, etc.? Can these be added on if there is not enough capacity? If a new estate is developed, how can we plan for insulation? Must each area have its own unit? This has further maintenance costs. It will also create further problems in planning and related aspects.

From my knowledge of the matter, it seems that although a cost is involved, there is no maintenance cost in gas piping whereas with hot water piping, there must be insulation to ensure none of the heat is dissipated. That must be a significant factor in that type of installation.

I will quickly add my own questions and witnesses may then answer all of them together. With regard to the jobs in Mayo, how many indirect jobs could be created around the Claremorris area? With regard to Carlow, what feedstocks would be contemplated in that area? Have the witnesses spoken with the IFA and Teagasc, as that body's national headquarters is there? There is a move, backed by me, for Carlow to become the first green energy town in Ireland. We are trying to dovetail everything with the town council, the local authority enterprise board and the institute of technology so that Carlow could become a very green town. I would like to know how far the work regarding feedstocks in Carlow is advanced.

The witnesses indicated that €300 million is spent on heating systems in the public service and spoke of changing them. How many jobs would be created if the heating system was changed as this sub-committee is particularly interested in job creation? The witnesses have much on their plate so I will give them the floor.

Mr. Peter Doyle

I hope we have captured all the questions but if in the course of our response we miss anything, sub-committee members may jump in again and remind us. It makes sense to group the questions and cover the answers that way.

I will quickly cover the comment from Deputy Fitzpatrick regarding the company and Irish growth plans. We have our headquarters in Maynooth so the head office for the business is in Ireland, and that is where the Irish staff are. We have opened offices in the UK in London and Cheshire and we are hiring there as well. The intention would be to grow the Imperative Energy business from our current staff numbers of approximately six to around 30 over the next two or three years.

We will probably split it in half between Ireland and the UK with regard to direct employees but indirectly through the projects we are involved in, we imagine another 200 or 300 jobs would be generated through design and construction service operations that are directly involved in our projects. They would again be split between Ireland and the UK. As Mr. O'Carroll indicated earlier, the UK is proving to be a more attractive market to us right now as there is more activity in general. In our overall plans, we feel confident that once we emerge from the difficult times we are in now, Ireland will be an attractive market over five years. We want our base to be here and we can then tackle the UK and other export markets.

A number of questions related to the long-term contracts where rather than clients using their own capital to purchase and install the systems, they procure it, in essence, over a longer-term contract. A typical long-term contract would be ten years but we may go as short as seven and, for example, on the Youghal leisure centre it could go as long as 15 or 20 years. On average it is a ten-year contract.

Within this there is a question of the position changing when clients are locked into a long-term contract. The principle is that the capital cost and risk are being transferred to a company like ourselves, so if technology changes, the onus and the incentive is for the supplier of the heat to implement the new technology in order to drive benefits. Clients are contracting for their energy cost, which is index linked over that period. We promise to come in with an initial saving on what is currently being used and clients are also taking a view as to where their energy costs will go over ten years. It is common sense to say the price will go up. There are different views as to how fast that will happen, but generally the price will go up. It is important, therefore, for companies to have the comfort of it being index linked through a biomass fuel source which gives stability and the assurance their energy costs will not spike in three years' time and ruin their business. We have heard that Irish business has become uncompetitive. The principal reason given by Irish companies is energy costs. Over a ten year period they have gone from being 60% of the EU average to 120%. The risks of technology changes are usually transferred to the supplier in delivering heat to clients who just want heat at a price against which they can plan. Such price stability is, therefore, very important.

There was reference to pay-back periods and whether one year sounded extremely impressive. These vary between one and three years. The Downshire Hospital in Northern Ireland is using a lot of oil which is very expensive to import. In other territories imported fossil fuel is being used. It is not quite as expensive, but the pay-back period is a little longer. Certainly within three years full pay-back will be achieved.

I will touch on district heating and then hand over to Mr. O'Carroll. Deputy Fitzpatrick asked whether in relation to Monasterevin, we would do it ourselves rather than wait. Claremorris is an example of where we can push on with a private solution once we have right the economics of the plant at the edge of town which takes in the feedstocks, using a bio-processing plant to generate valuable compounds that we can sell to pharmaceuticals and medical devices industries. We are also building a wood pellet production facility, which gives us an economic reason to connect to the grid at Claremorris and have local access to it. That relates to Deputy English's question as to how easy it is for us to engage with the EirGrids and the big infrastructure. That is straightforward for us. We will connect through the substation in Claremorris and spill the extra electricity we generate from the plant onto the grid. That will give us revenue in return and make the whole thing stack up economically. These ideas are great in principle but they have to work.

There is no problem with that.

Mr. Peter Doyle

There is no problem in doing it.

Are there any perceived problems with Imperative Energy's future plans?

Mr. Peter Doyle

This is where we look to replicate and must take all of these factors into account. That is a major factor. We spent a long time looking for the right site in the west — County Mayo, County Galway and Connacht generally. It took us a while to find a site where all the factors added up, but once they do we can look to bringing a district heating system to a town such as Claremorris as a private entity. We would bring in partners to help the whole thing to take effect. It is possible, but one needs a lot of things to come right at a particular site. The suggestion of using the semi-State body, Bord Gáis, and its roll-out means we can accelerate all of this and do it on a much bigger scale than a company such as Imperative Energy could do on its own. We are very ambitious to push on and do things on our own and we will. We will not sit and wait. Clearly, there are things, as Ireland Incorporated, that we can do that will benefit us as a company as we try to export to the United Kingdom. We will become a stronger company because we are doing things on the ground here.

Will Mr. Doyle forward us a list at some stage of the requirements that need to fall into place for this to be possible because that is fundamental to what we want to do also?

Mr. Peter Doyle

Yes, absolutely. I would be delighted to do so.

Mr. Joe O’Carroll

Our interaction with EirGrid was mentioned. Biomass drive electricity has advantages over wind-generated electricity in terms of CHP, combined heat and power. Biomass is dispatchable and we know we can produce it; wind is variable and needs back-up generation. There are fewer problems with the supply of electricity to the grid than wind. To date we have not had a problem. Claremorris will be our first large-scale biomass CHP plant and so far we are getting on well with the relevant authorities.

I will try to clarify some points. Senator Carty has stepped out of the room but we are not saying the use of gas should be stopped. If natural gas is available near the island of Ireland we should use it. Regarding the distribution network, we feel we should not use money to link ourselves with natural gas. We have put in a system and natural gas can still be used — it is converted into hot water on the edge of town — but we can gradually build the percentage of biomass.

Regarding the cost of installing gas distribution pipes compared with hot water pipes, there is a slight increase but it is not significant. In the current context, given labour costs, contracting costs, etc., the main costs of installing the network relate to labour, permits to dig up roads and so on. The cost per metre of hot water pipes is slightly higher than gas pipes but it is not significant overall and is not a barrier to the implementation of this approach. There are far fewer safety concerns relating to pumping hot water around a town rather than gas.

What worries me is if a boiler fails nobody in town will have hot water. Gas is used on an individual basis and is permanent.

Mr. Joe O’Carroll

We wish to incorporate gas through the transmission network and there would be multiple boilers on the edge of town. The critical part would not be a boiler. Biomass boilers will cease to function from time to time while they are serviced because they use solid fuels and have a heavier maintenance schedule. In such circumstances gas or multiple biomass boilers would be used.

Mr. Peter Doyle

On that point, that is what we would do for an individual client. For example, at the Downshire Hospital in Northern Ireland oil boilers are still on site as back up during maintenance. If one wishes to peak economically, it is very hard to know how people will use energy 365 days per year. There will always be a day when peak performance is required and it is necessary to have another boiler that can kick in. For various reasons it will always be necessary to have a multiple fuel approach.

We are trying to change from 95% energy reliance on fossil fuels, for example oil or gas, with a tiny percentage sourced elsewhere. We seek a balance with energy that is produced locally and creates jobs. There would be a multiplier effect in terms of money spent and it would not simply flow straight out of the country. It is all about creating choice and transferring risk. We must do everything ourselves. This will give us a long-term future.

Mr. Joe O’Carroll

There were some other comments regarding the basis of jobs created indirectly by BioSpark in Claremorris. We know about the jobs directly created because we are the people who will do the hiring. Figures for indirect jobs are based on employment multipliers developed by the faculty of agriculture in UCD and this information was put in the public domain through the Bacon report on the future of forestry activity. They are actual employment multipliers for the biomass supply chain and are publicly available.

The issue of fuel quality was raised by Senator Ryan. We put our capital to play in such projects and ensure the system is designed to use the available fuel. The matter of fuel quality has arisen because people run tenders to get a boiler and end up buying the cheapest one available, which will only deal with very tight fuel parameters. These people then go to the market to buy fuel and find it is not possible to get the necessary fuel with 20% moisture content. This shows the advantage of procuring what one really wants in terms of renewable heat. The repeated mistake people make is that they purchase the cheapest equipment available and then discover that there is no fuel available for it.

There is a competitive advantage in respect of increasing the biomass market. The appropriate technological solution is available, not just from us but from other companies, to convert high moisture content fuel to energy with greater than 80% efficiency.

With regard to renewable heat incentives versus the provision of grants, from the point of view of legislation we are quite convinced because the British Government made a move in this regard in its Energy Act 2008. We are sure the British would have carried out the necessary checks from the point of view of such incentives coming within the EU rules on state aid. The real benefit from the State's point of view is that it would only pay the incentive on renewable heat actually delivered and generated and in respect of which a carbon benefit would have already accrued. If the State pays a grant relating to equipment, such equipment might be installed but might not ever be used. If the State provides such grants, it might never obtain a carbon benefit in respect of them.

The provision of incentives is a more cost-effective method. We agree that it would probably not work at domestic level. Our focus is on the commercial and industrial spheres. There would be a burden involved in trying to administer an incentive scheme at domestic level. I refer here, for example, to people installing solar panels on their homes. We do not refer to individual households in the context of our plans.

Mr. Peter Doyle

The incentive involves literally imposing a levy in respect of oil and gas and switching it across. Such a levy would be taken from companies in the oil and gas industries.

If it is an incentive over a long period as opposed to being paid up front, is there concern that banks or other investors would not provide the necessary financing?

Mr. Joe O’Carroll

A number of factors arise. We engage in weekly discussions with providers of debt finance, mostly those from overseas in light of the obvious situation of some of the Irish banks at present. It is not an issue provided one chooses one's clients carefully. Creditworthiness is a massive concern for any supplier of utilities. However, provided one carries out appropriate credit checks and the client is appropriately credit worthy — in other words, the client must be able to pay — a renewable heat incentive is actually preferable to an up-front grant. There is evidence that once a capital grant is introduced, it tends to be capitalised on the cost of the equipment. The suppliers of equipment see an upside in this similar to that which obtains in respect of first-time buyers grants for houses, and so on. Our strong view is that an incentive should be paid with regard to what is delivered as opposed to a grant for what may be delivered.

I welcome the Vice Chairman's comments on Carlow. We like competition, so I noted her ambition for it to become Ireland's first green town. Claremorris might be just ahead of it at present but if the Vice Chairman could assist in stimulating the Carlow project we would welcome the opportunity to examine it. We have identified Carlow as a result of its location as a centre for tillage activity in the south east. We are trying to identify a suitable site at present. The feedstock material in the area would tend more towards biocrops. We would use straw as a feedstock to the bioprocessing facility and this would be converted into high-value products. We would then encourage farmers to grow miscanthus and willow to supply the biomass——

Does the process involve waste straw or straw that is harvested?

Mr. Joe O’Carroll

Straw that is harvested. It is existing product.

How many jobs might be created as a result of moving from the use of fossil fuel to provide public sector heating to Imperative Energy Limited's renewable form of heating?

Mr. Joe O’Carroll

We would like to communicate further with the sub-committee on that matter. I would not like to put a figure into the public domain which might then turn out to be incorrect.

I would be very interested in discovering what might be that figure.

Mr. Joe O’Carroll

If the sub-committee can give us 24 hours, we will carry out a quick calculation and communicate the result to the secretariat.

The Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment has written to the local authorities about this matter and Clare County Council responded in a very positive way. On district heating projects, the village of Clane has two primary schools, a second level school, a doctor's surgery and many private houses. Is it viable to set up a district heating system in that part of Clane, rather than the whole village? Does that make sense?

Mr. Joe O’Carroll

It does and is related to a point raised by Deputy Wall, to which I did not respond. This concerns how to expand a district heating network. As Deputy Fitzpatrick is aware, we have identified a location in Naas, a small cluster of a school, a church and the Nás na Rí housing scheme. It will be a small network and there is not a massive cost in rolling out transmission pipes. They are all located on the same site. We hope to examine this. If there is a similar cluster of buildings in Clane we will examine this. It is economically viable.

It would be advisable for Imperative Energy Limited to talk to public representatives at local authority level to highlight what is available. We are not talking about big projects but small, local projects. The presentation we have seen would be useful to local authorities. The county manager of Kildare, Mr. Malone, would welcome such a presentation.

Mr. Joe O’Carroll

Senator Ryan referred to an issue that Mr. Doyle answered about what will happen if someone enters a 15-year contract with us and a new technology is developed. We insist that clients undertake an energy efficiency audit before we design our system. We do not want to replace fossil fuel when there are glaringly obvious measures that can be taken to reduce the energy use on-site. We encourage people to consider energy efficiency first and consider fuel switching last, so that all low-hanging fruit is harvested before they look to switch fuel. Essentially, we displace the baseload. We are an energy development company and have our eyes focused on emerging technology. As soon as there is one that is better than the one we use, we are the first to embrace it.

Will Imperative Energy Limited then review the project and provide the customer with more savings through the new technology? Can a contract be reviewed downwards?

Mr. Joe O’Carroll

It can. Increasingly, we are being asked to take over the full supply of heat on-site, including the contribution that comes from oil or gas so that the client has a single supplier of renewable heat. It is up to us to decide what technology and fuel to use. We will look to incorporate that. It gives us more flexibility to change technology.

I thank Mr. O'Carroll and Mr. Doyle. This sub-committee is focused on jobs through renewable energy. Looking back on old schoolbooks with maps of Ireland, one sees nothing about renewable energy. Britain and Germany had coal deposits but there was nothing in Ireland. Now we have wave, wind, solar and geothermal energy. We have endless prospects and this presentation has helped encapsulate our thoughts for the report we will produce. I thank the witnesses on behalf of the sub-committee. They are now excused.

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