JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT debate -
Tuesday, 14 Jul 2009

Learning in the Workplace: Discussion with Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

Chairman

I welcome Mr. Dermot Mulligan, assistant secretary, Ms Anne Forde, principal officer, Mr. Patrick Hayden, principal officer, Mr. Seamus Hempenstall, principal officer and Mr. Eamon Balmer, Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. I thank the delegation for coming here today.

I draw attention to the fact that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I do not anticipate that we will have any difficulties and I call on Mr. Mulligan to give his opening statement. I also thank the delegation for the summary and press statement it has already furnished.

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

I thank the committee for the opportunity to deliver this opening statement on encouraging and implementing learning in the workplace. Today's topic is broad and covers all learning by those at work through the various training and education programmes delivered by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Department of Education and Science, and their respective agencies.

To give some context on these programmes and into this area generally, these education and training programmes are implemented within the policy framework of the national skills strategy, which is based on the expert group for future skills needs report entitled Tomorrow's Skills — Towards a National Skills Strategy. The report had four key conclusions: that more than 70% of our current workforce will still be in employment in 2020 and therefore learning in the workplace is important; as the economy increases its dependence on services and high technology manufacturing there will be a corresponding change in the skills needed; to compete internationally we need to upskill 500,000 people by at least one level on the national framework of qualifications over the period up to 2020, and of these 330,000 will be at or below leaving certificate levels or equivalent; and the barriers to participation in education and training are more pronounced for people with lower level skills. The report concluded that this justified State support of education and training for these individuals in particular, since otherwise they would not be in a position to participate in education and training.

The recent 2009 national skills bulletin, published by the expert group for future skills needs, concluded that some progress has already been made towards meeting the national skills strategy objectives. It found that between 2005 and 2008 the percentage of those with qualifications below leaving certificate fell from 29% to 24% and the percentage with honours degree or above increased from 20% to 25%.

The achievement of the targets and the vision contained in the NSS requires an integrated approach jointly led by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Department of Education and Science and their agencies. The co-ordination mechanisms put in place include: an interdepartmental implementation committee for the implementation of the skills strategy chaired by the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science, responsible for lifelong learning, Deputy Seán Haughey; and an upskilling co-ordination group that is chaired by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and includes the key Departments and their agencies.

In terms of the programmes in this area, the main workplace related learning programmes across the training and education sectors are provided by the following. FÁS under its competency development programme and workplace basic education fund. The competency development programme has a 2009 budget of €13 million to train approximately 10,000 workers and has regional, sectoral and strategic alliance strands. The workplace basic education fund focuses on employee literacy and numeracy issues and has a 2009 budget of €3 million to train approximately 1,850 workers.

A further component of the programmes is that under Skillnets, its enterprise-led training networks programme, funds workplace based training for employees led by networks of firms with a 2009 budget of €16.6 million to train approximately 39,850 employees. The Department of Education and Science, under its back to education initiative, BTEI, funds flexible learning opportunities for participants, including employees, to return to education. In 2009 there are 9,000 places on the BTEI. The Higher Education Authority, under its strategic innovation fund, SIF, is funding several innovative flexible learning projects introducing new methods of course delivery and facilitating stronger partnerships between employers and academic institutions in supporting upskilling of the workforce. The overall allocation for flexible learning initiatives under SIF in 2009 is in the order of €3.5 million. The Department of Education and Science provides funding to vocational education committees to deliver adult literacy programmes, including workplace based schemes. VECs also deliver the return to learning scheme for outdoor based local authority staff as well as training for Health Service Executive employees.

I shall now talk about the obstacles to workplace learning. Subsequent to its work on the NSS, the expert group on future skills needs was also asked to examine the potential of a number of innovative measures to incentivise employers and employees to more fully engage in education and training. The group felt that the first measure, Skills Brokers, had the most potential to lead to an increase in employee participation in education and training programmes. Skills Brokers would identify a firm's training needs and source and fund relevant employee training programmes. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is considering how similar services, provided by its agencies, might be restructured to have a greater impact in this regard. The expert group concluded that other supports were of limited effectiveness in increasing employee participation in training and education.

With regard to compensating employers for lost output by allowing their staff time off to train, the group concluded that in other countries similar measures did not have a significant impact on employee participation in education and training. On creating individual learning accounts for employees, the group concluded that these accounts only had an impact on third level education participation and on creating new regional skills advisory groups the group felt that existing structures in Ireland were adequate.

We do of course need to recognise that since the national skills strategy was launched the employment market has deteriorated, with a sharp rise in unemployment. This in itself does not affect the importance of the national skills strategy objectives. Indeed for those individuals who have become unemployed, the need to upskill or reskill has only become more urgent. As a result the training and education system has changed its programmes to try to ensure that the upskilling needs of those who were up until recently in employment but are now unemployed are met.

Recent initiatives in this regard include a short-time work training programme for those working short-time. The following initiatives are for the fully unemployed: increased job search support places, increased training places, increased subsidised redundant apprentice places, increased part-time third level education places, a new work placement scheme and an increase in community employment places.

This has been a brief summary of the policy context, programmes and issues relating to encouraging and implementing learning in the workplace. My colleagues and I are happy to take any questions.

Chairman

I ask colleagues to focus on the issue of learning in the workplace, skills and training programmes.

Deputy Damien English

I thank the witnesses for the presentation and have some questions for them. I may ask more later. This is an important area and it is interesting to hear what the delegates have to say. Regarding targets and the number of people the witnesses wish to see involved in courses, how are the figures adding up this year in terms of the uptake of places? We have heard the figures may not be as high as we thought and some of the programmes are not full. Who decides who provides the courses and how are they chosen? We often hear stories that certain courses provided through agencies are not what they should be. I have heard this anecdotally and I wonder what procedures exist to check the quality and end results of courses. There is a fear that people are being trained to get pieces of paper and certificates that lead to nothing. Is there career guidance relating to courses? At this and other committees we have discussed the serious questions over the quality of career guidance, though there have been major improvements in the VECs; more members of staff are now involved in the area. What do the witnesses think of this? Is there an education plan for every person?

Recent initiatives for unemployed people were mentioned but is the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment open to new ideas and schemes? We often raise this matter with Ministers during Question Time. It seems there has been no change of direction and no new schemes are emerging. Perhaps we just cannot see the changes because so much is going on; can the witnesses elaborate on this area? It seems that over 500,000 people will be unemployed in the State by Christmas and we must plan for this, though I hope it will not be the case.

Community employment schemes were mentioned; is there scope for different schemes that target different levels based on the education and background of people who lose their jobs? It is a shame that so many high-quality people are unemployed when so much work needs to be done in many areas of our towns, villages and communities. I am not referring only to physical work but also to advisory roles in organisations, community groups and so on. Can this be addressed through the new schemes the witnesses have mentioned?

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

With regard to progress to date and in terms of training people for employment, our key agencies are FÁS, through the competency development programme, and Skillnets. There is no lack of demand for the courses and they are fully subscribed. Our challenge at the moment is to deal with the level of demand, given the financial resources available to us.

In terms of training for the unemployed, we have made a number of adjustments in the past year to cope with the increase in numbers and my colleagues from the Department of Education and Science may wish to comment on this. For example, we have doubled the number of job search support places to over 150,000 per year so people have support through FÁS and local employment services when seeking employment. We have also doubled work experience, community employment, CE, and training places; the key increase was in the area of training. We now have 91,000 training interventions available per year, which is three times the capacity of last year. The training places are coming on stream; already some 40,000 unemployed people are either engaged in training or have completed it in the current year. We are well on the way to delivering in this respect, which represents a significant shift in our programmes.

Regarding work experience, we have increased the number of CE places by 400 and have introduced new schemes such as the work placement programme, which has 2,000 places — 1,000 for graduates and 1,000 for non-graduates. Work placements will last six months and will be with firms; this is being rolled out at the moment. We also have a new short-time training programme for people working a three-day week; for the two days they are unemployed they receive training. This is a small programme at the moment but we will monitor its effectiveness closely. There are many new initiatives in this space.

I was asked how programmes are chosen; they are generally picked through an open tendering process. Skillnets puts out a call for proposals, a tendering process follows and applicants are marked by a committee within Skillnets. In the FÁS strategic alliance initiative there is again a call for proposals, which is followed by a tendering process and the selection of proposals, based on a set of criteria. A similar process takes place at regional level; I already mentioned the regional, sectoral and strategic alliance strands of the FÁS competency development programme.

I was asked about quality and this is a key issue. The relevant jargon is accreditation and we try to ensure that as much as possible of the publicly funded training is accredited; it should either be on the national framework of qualifications or a recognised industry qualification certificate should attach to it. The pieces of paper must mean something and as many as possible are on the national framework of qualifications; we feel this is very important. Ensuring quality is a challenge but qualifications should be transferable. A person who has a qualification related to a specific type of job will be more mobile than a person in the same job without that piece of paper; he or she will be better positioned in terms of changing jobs or gaining promotion.

The VEC career guidance service was mentioned but career guidance generally presents a challenge. Part of this challenge relates to ensuring people have the information they need when they need it and in an accessible form. For example, FÁS, through its employment services offices and the local employment service, tries to give whatever guidance it can in regard to job search supports.

There are also elements of the guidance and counselling service across education. My colleagues in that area may wish to explore that. It is a challenge to ensure people have the information on courses, training, qualifications and what they need to become whatever it is. It is a challenge to ensure they get that information on time, when they need it and in the form they need it. We are working on that aspect. It is an information challenge around training and education.

Chairman

Does anybody else wish to comment?

Ms Anne Forde

I deal with the higher education sector within the Department of Education and Science. The Deputy asked about demand. Through the normal CAO process, with which everybody present would be familiar, we have already seen an increase of more than 8.5% applications this year. That means that of the order of 70,000 people have applied to go through the normal full-time route into higher education. It is interesting that the applications by mature learners have increased by more than 30% since last year. Some 12,000 mature learners have already applied. That is evidence of the fact that many people who may have lost their jobs have taken the decision to go back to education on a full time basis. As Mr. Mulligan said a range of steps were taken earlier this year to try to increase access for people who are losing their jobs to get back into education and training. From our perspective we would be conscious that the profile of those losing their jobs may not be the same as what may traditionally have been the case. Many people who may have excellent workforce skills may be a long time out of formal education and may not have the standard educational qualifications to get in. For this reason we took an initiative earlier in the year to use the spare capacity in the institutes of technology sector to put on a range of accelerated programmes and transition courses. They were specifically for unemployed people. We would have worked very closely with FÁS and the Department of Social and Family Affairs in targeting those places. Most of those courses are now completed and the feedback is quite positive as people got some of the basic skills in the maths-ICT area which, hopefully, will encourage them to apply for courses starting in September.

We are in the middle of the process of rolling out 1,500 undergraduate part-time places at third level in collaboration with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment which is funding them and 1,000 places for graduates to do a range of higher diploma or conversion courses. The calls for proposals that went out to the third level sector for those places were based on the criteria linked to the reports from the expert group on future skills needs where they felt that sustainable job opportunities may arise in the future. We consider that important because we have to target what we can in terms of what will deliver for people in terms of future employment. Working closely with FÁS and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment we have developed a range of education programmes for redundant apprentices.

FÁS is taking a number of initiatives to try to place apprentices who have lost their jobs with other employers so they can finish their training and get their full qualification. We recognise that given the scale of the redundancies it will not be possible to find employers for them. We have developed an education programme of 12 weeks duration which will be delivered in the institutes of technology, using the capacity that has arisen due to the fall-off in normal recruitment of apprentices. At the end of that programme they will have their certificate, which will be a full FETAC award at level 5. That will be recognised by the institutes if those students wish to go into further higher education programmes or, alternatively, if they can get a job and go back and finish their normal apprenticeship. It will have given them an extra education piece to add to their qualification. Those are some of the initiatives that are under way. We are conscious of demand in terms of the numbers of people applying.

On the higher education side, colleges are moving towards the more flexible provision, the original focus of which would have been around those in the workforce. Unfortunately, more of those people are losing their jobs but the same type of responses are important.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White

I welcome the delegation. I am particularly interested in this area of competency which is being brought to us today. Having spent many years with the VEC it is interesting to note the strong focus of the presentations on the programmes being delivered. The previous speaker mentioned a new type of trainee, a new type of training perhaps. Given that 40% of architects are unemployed, what type of upskilling can be offered to professional people of that calibre, whether solicitors, lawyers or architects? This recession is swiping across all sectors and all professions. I notice that many of the programmes are targeted at the lower end of the market. Does the delegation see a need for a different type of training course to reflect the number of people who are unemployed within a firm or who may not yet be made redundant and where the work for an architect, solicitor or barrister is not available? How does one upskill?

Will the delegates outline in some detail the strategic innovation fund and how courses will be delivered in partnership with academic institutions? In my constituency of Carlow-Kilkenny there are a number of third level institutions: the Institute of Technology Carlow, St. Patrick's College Carlow and the Outreach Campus at St. Kieran's College in Kilkenny. That project appears exciting and I would like some more detail on it.

We should never underestimate the number of people in the country who cannot read and write. A person came to my constituency recently and I was wondering why I was not getting the information I needed to progress his concern. He is a very well respected man in my community and it transpired he could not read. He was conducting a business under great difficulty but one would never have targeted him as a person with a specific need. Literacy and numeracy issues have to be included in the courses. I am aware that discreet telephone numbers are available at the VECs, local authorities and the Citizens Information Bureau. We have to look hard at that issue as many people are escaping through the net and that will impact negatively on their chances of progressing and getting employment. Sometimes people are not aware of the extent of the courses being provided. Even for those of us who know them, the list is useful, whether it is sports, skillnets, back to education issues, VTOS, adult education or whatever. People are not aware of the amount of choice available. It is only when they lose their job and come to our constituency offices to seek help that we direct them as best we can to the library, Citizen Information centres and so on. We try to give them whatever information we have but the Department has a job of work to do in the communications area. I look forward to hearing the responses.

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

I will say a few words about the information and literacy issues and my colleagues will deal with third level and the strategic innovation fund. The point made about literacy is very important. We have found that the basic workplace education fund, which targets this area, is a very accessible way of addressing the issue through the workplace. If one needs to be able to read and write in order to do the work, one can call it training without putting literacy and numeracy on the application. If one is teaching those skills it can be done in a sensitive way and in a way that is meaningful. That is why that fund is particularly important for FÁS.

The issue of information is also a challenge. Information is to be found on the web. All the FÁS courses, for example, are on its website and one can quickly and easily access them in that way. In terms of the guidance we spoke about earlier, there are several websites where one can check what one wants to work on, find the desired course and its location. There are a number of web-based tools with which one can find that information, but the information is still somewhat fragmented. It must be brought together and we are working on how to do that across the education and training system but that is the challenge. In the current environment and with the current profile of those who are becoming unemployed, increasingly they search on the Internet for information on areas such as this one. I will ask my colleagues in education to elaborate further.

Mr. Seamus Hempenstall

I am the principal officer in the further education section in the Department of Education and Science. The further education programmes encompass the literacy programmes and FETAC courses levels one to six. Essentially, it would cover everything does not come under mainstream school or third level.

In terms of literacy, the difficulty in accessing education for those who have literacy difficulties is recognised because by their very nature they are reluctant to come forward. The number of participants has increased year on year. The vocational education committees are based in the communities and they are good at promoting such access for those people and bringing them into tuition. Anecdotally, VECs are reporting an increase in demand for those services and that may be a sign that the stigma is being left behind because of the urgent nature of the situation with the increase in unemployment.

In terms of guidance, in 2007 the adult education guidance initiative became nationwide. There is an increasing number of clients as well. The initiative provides guidance for people who want to participate in further education programmes, both before they join the programme, during it and having completed it in terms of career advice.

It is important to note that, as my colleague mentioned, FÁS also has a guidance initiative. It provides those kinds of services and the challenge for us is to link those services together, avoid duplicating them and make sure they complement each other. For someone who is unemployed it does not matter what the name is over the store or where they go for that guidance but that they get the answers they need, and we recognise that. A point to note is that FÁS and the Irish Vocational Education Association, which represents the VECs, recently concluded a co-operation agreement and one of the items on which they will co-operate is guidance and how to make that more effective and efficient.

On the point about quality assurance, VECs deliver FETAC levels one to six courses. They are accredited and the piece of paper they get is recognisable throughout the country.

Data collection is a challenge for us. We are trying to overcome that challenge, but we can say that the outcomes from our programmes for those who complete, say, VTOS or Youthreach courses, is that approximately 65% to 70% of those people go on to other further education or get a job, which shows that the programmes are doing what they say on the tin in that sense.

Ms Ann Forde

I will pick up on a few of the other points made. In terms of what we can do for skilled graduates, the purpose of the extra 1,000 postgraduate places we are providing is in recognition of the fact that there may be people who are graduates who would benefit from another type of upskilling. We will not be in a position to provide upskilling for every unemployed graduate and every unemployed graduate may not need it. If one is an architect, solicitor or whatever one may not necessarily want to go back to college to train for something else.

We had a good experience some years ago in regard to putting on what we called ICT conversion programmes. That was at a time when there was increased demand from the ICT sector for skilled graduates. The objective behind that programme was to take people from disciplines other than the obvious one — ICT — and provide them with an additional number of modules of learning that would facilitate them going into the ICT sector. That approach is what is behind what we are doing with the 1,000 places for postgraduates. Those calls for proposals will be evaluated in the coming weeks and the places will be announced but, as I said previously, they would be around a range of conversion or higher diploma courses and will specifically target that group of unemployed people.

The strategic innovation fund was a funding mechanism introduced in 2006 and it is very much geared towards changing the higher education system, changing the way we deliver provision, fostering increased collaboration between institutions within the institute of technology sector, the university sector and across institutions. There is a range of strands to it but it is a competitive based fund. Institutions come together, collaborate and submit proposals which are then evaluated by an expert panel. The institutes that apply for funding under it are required to come up with matching funding.

It is very much about generating change from within the system and increasing collaboration. More than 20 of the higher education institutions are involved in different strands and some are involved in a number of different strands. Carlow Institute of Technology is participating in the flexible learning initiative and I believe it is also involved in a project on progression routes for apprentices. That is an important initiative because it is about trying to map the qualifications an apprentice acquires through the normal apprenticeship scheme on to higher education programmes with a view to exempting them from the requirement to do all stages of a two-year or a three-year degree programme. They can advance having had the recognition for their qualifications.

Overall, SIF funding since 2006 has been in the order of approximately €140 million. Specifically in regard to the lifelong learning or the education and employment, funding of approximately €20 million has been provided for a range of projects in that area. One I would mention in particular is an education in employment project which is being managed by Cork Institute of Technology. That project is about developing formal partnerships with enterprises in developing the type of learning and upskilling relevant to the workforce. For instance, there would be a partnership between Cork Institute of Technology and Thomas Crosbie Holdings, the media group. Athlone Institute of Technology has a formal partnership with Bord na Móna. There are various partnerships throughout the country. It is very much about involving the employer in designing and delivering the programme. In most cases a significant amount of the learning takes place in the workplace. It would also involve experts from the company. It is about changing the focus from an academic-led approach to the workplace.

The other major project that is ongoing currently, which involves all the institutes of technology, is the flexible learning project. Under it, they have developed a framework for flexible learning. It is about coming up with ways of learning and teaching that are more suitable to the needs of the learner and in particular to the workforce. The focus is moving very much on to part-time provision, blended learning, e-learning, recognition of prior qualifications rather than basing entry on educational qualifications and giving credit for experience gained through the workplace. These projects have been ongoing and, hopefully, will continue to be further developed in the coming years.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White

If most of a course is delivered in the workplace, must students apply to the CAO to do the course, to the relevant institute or is it done in partnership institutes?

Ms Anne Forde

No, it would be all done in partnership. The education in employment programme is done in partnership between the employer and the institute. The CAO deals only with applications for full-time third level courses. Students who want to do a part-time course at third level apply in the main directly to the institution concerned. In respect of all the additional activation places that we are putting in place, the 1,000 postgraduates places and the 1,500 part-time places, the applications for those would be made directly to the institutes. They also have the capacity to make an evaluation on whether to accept somebody on to the course, not just based on leaving certificate results, but having regard to work-based experience and other factors.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White

Is it more practical?

Ms Anne Forde

It is, but obviously there is still a standard that has to be judged. Much of it would be by interview, rather than by submitting formal scripts.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White

That is very clear, thank you.

Senator Brendan Ryan

I welcome the departmental representatives to the committee. One group of workers is, by definition, involved more than any other in learning in the workplace — the apprentices. In the opening statement, however, there was little mention of what action is being taken to address the issues relating to apprentices, although Ms Forde did refer to it by way of example in a few of her responses. I would like a brief update on what is going in that respect. There is a lot of uncertainty and apprentices do not know what is happening. It seems that FÁS is not telling them and when they ask local representatives they do not know. We have heard rumours but there is no certainty. There is an absolute need for communication because apprentices have invested much of their time in reaching a certain stage of training. They may be getting close to the end and need to be kept informed. There are two elements: what the Department is doing and also how it is intending to communicate that.

When it was first introduced, the national skills strategy was a strategy for growth. There was talk of a need for diversification, increased involvement in the services sector, movement into hi-tech and the green economy. Now, however, the situation has become more acute due to a massive increase in the number of unemployed. The growth focus is off the table and has switched somewhat, so I wonder how that strategy is being adapted. Two bodies are involved in implementing that strategy: first, the implementation body chaired by the Minister of State, Deputy Seán Haughey; and, second, the upskilling co-ordination group. How often do these bodies meet? Since they were set up, how often have they met? Given the current unemployment crisis, this high priority implementation group should be meeting fortnightly at a minimum to address the relevant issues. I would like some feedback on how often the bodies have met and what their intentions are.

A number of programmes and their budgets have been outlined. Is there pressure on those budgets in the current financial situation? When I worked in private industry we were managing budget lines for certain functions within the organisation. If times were tight there was always pressure towards the end of the year to hold off on spending. Is any of that happening here? Things are at such a crisis level that we cannot afford not to spend these moneys, which are quite small initially. If there is any pressure to save on any of these it would be a disaster. I agree with Deputy White that more needs to be done in communicating these programmes.

Chairman

I again emphasise what Senator Ryan said because people are still in limbo. People do not know whether they are coming or going. I have communicated with the Minister in this regard. People are coming to us in desperation because they do not know where they stand, although they may have completed three-quarters of a course. I was given an undertaking that people who could not get practical help to move on to the final phase of their learning would be assisted, but is that taking place? What is happening? I have come across the case of a young man who is an aircraft maintenance apprentice. He has a year left on his course, but he does not know where he stands. It is great to have programmes and objectives in theory, but in practice nobody should be left like that. It makes me angry. That young man came to me three or four weeks ago and I have communicated with the Minister about it, but I am still awaiting a final response. How long is a piece of string? How long can a person's patience last in that regard, especially young people who have devoted a significant period of time to such training?

As Senator Ryan said, people who have given a strong commitment to achieve training that will certainly serve the economy in whatever form, should know what is happening. The assistant secretary general would know that we have been talking about apprentices on this committee for a considerable period. We suggested all sorts of things, including people going to England and getting subsistence payments to ensure they could complete their apprenticeships. This committee came up with all sorts of ideas to ensure that people would get through. The Vice Chairman, Deputy Cyprian Brady, was interested in particular areas and also provided some ideas in that regard. One of the big problems is that apprentices are falling between the gaps at the moment, particularly when jobs are being lost where they are doing on-the-job training. They cannot get such training any more, so where do they go now? What efforts are being made to ensure that they can complete their training and get the qualifications they set out to obtain? We hope the economic recovery will come in the not too distant future so that such apprentices can play a positive role.

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

We are conscious of the difficult position of apprentices who become redundant. In the 12 months to June 2009, over 3,800 notified FÁS that they had become redundant, so it is a significant issue. We have taken significant steps to deal with them. Of those 3,800 we have taken measures to ensure that the issues concerning 3,600 of them are addressed. There are four key legs to that response.

First, if someone becomes redundant they can move to the next off-the-job training in the institute of technology or FÁS. In the normal phase, they would move to an on-the-job training period, but they can move to the next off-the-job period while seeking other work. We have advanced that 2009 off-the-job training, which is in place for 2,300 apprentices. That includes 300 at phase two and 2,000 at phases four and six. Advancing off-the-job training is the first measure.

Second, we have put in place a new rotation scheme which subsidises employers to take on apprentices who are redundant. That will cover 500 apprentices in 2009 with a budget of €4 million. Third, the ESB network has said it will take on 400 apprentices as a first phase and that will increase with time. Fourth, the institutes of technology are providing training for 350 redundant apprentices to allow them to progress to other training thereafter.

There is, therefore, a provision for more than 3,600 of those apprentices. I would be concerned if members of the committee say people do not know about these matters and that there is an information gap. The message is that people need to contact FÁS and raise the issue with it to get a response. Between FÁS and the institutes of technology we are dealing with this issue. We are conscious that it is a real and significant issue for young people who are a priority group in the current recession. I wanted to give some clarification on that.

Senator Brendan Ryan

Mr. Mulligan is stating that if there is a problem, then the trainees should go. The Department should be more proactive in this regard and take ownership of the matter.

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

FÁS is responsible for co-ordination in respect of apprenticeships.

Senator Brendan Ryan

Yes. FÁS, through the Department, should take ownership of the issue.

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

FÁS is engaged in dealing with the matter on a daily basis. If people are concerned or are not sure how to proceed, they should contact FÁS, which will engage with them.

I was asked about the current position of the national skills strategy, which was initiated during our recent period of growth. As stated earlier, the strategy is even more important now. The strategy will last until 2020 and there is no doubt that over such a long period there will be ups and downs. For those who have become unemployed, the challenge in respect of upskilling is even greater and more relevant. It is a strategy for growth but, more importantly, it is designed to ensure that we can compete with other economies and labour markets. We must upskill the workforce to ensure that our firms will be able to compete in the markets to which I refer. Regardless of whether times are good or bad, the competition remains. We must, therefore, upskill our workforce so that we maintain a competitive edge. That is the key underlying imperative.

The Senator inquired with regard to how often the various groups meet. The upskilling co-ordination group meets every two months and, depending on requirements, the implementation group, which is chaired by the Minister of State, Deputy Haughey, meets every month or two months. In the event that there might be a misapprehension, I must point out that in the context of the response to the challenge of unemployment, senior officials of the relevant Departments meet on a weekly basis and the Cabinet sub-committee on economic recovery also reviews these issues on a monthly basis. Intensive work is being done across Departments on the issues we discussed earlier. I refer here to the various responses required in respect of unemployment and whether such responses should be in the area of training or education. There is a very active response in that regard.

Our budgets are under pressure. I am not sure that there is any area of public expenditure which is not under pressure at present. This places a much stronger emphasis on value for money and what we can obtain, in terms of output, for the money we invest in this area and all others. The need in respect of upskilling is as great, if not greater, than it is in other areas and we are trying to obtain the best output in the context of the budgets available.

Senator Brendan Ryan

I presume value for money was a consideration when the budgets were put in place. I cannot understand, therefore, why the budget for 2009 should be reduced when the extent of the problem is increasing. I also fail to understand how there could be incentives to be had within the Department — or kudos to be garnered — in respect of saving on budget lines, particularly in light of the crisis that exists.

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

The point I am making is that we are trying to bring an even greater focus on obtaining even larger outputs in return for the money we are investing.

Deputy Cyprian Brady

I thank the officials for the information they have provided. Many speakers referred to the concept of flexibility. However, I am obliged to wonder about the level of flexibility in respect of some of the programmes. I am familiar with the case of a young man from Dublin's north inner city who was obliged to travel to Cork to complete one of the modules relating to his apprenticeship. This gives rise to questions as to the level of flexibility that exists. In a macro sense, there is no doubt that the policy must be dealt with. However, the level of flexibility at ground level is an issue.

Mr. Mulligan referred to adult literacy. I am interested in the level of co-ordination or interaction that occurs with the National Adult Literacy Agency, NALA, which runs programmes that are geared towards specific areas. Does such interaction occur and are attempts made to co-ordinate programmes with NALA?

Is there a need to review the community employment schemes? Again, questions arise in respect of flexibility. When people complete their work on such schemes, they are obliged to wait for a certain period before they can apply to go on other schemes. Is it time to review the position in this regard?

A number of previous speakers referred to the dissemination of information. It is fine for a person who has completed a college education and who is skilled in the use of the Internet to seek assistance because he or she will have the skills necessary to do so. I have logged on to the relevant websites and I must state that while some of them are easily navigable, others are particularly complicated. People coming off community employment schemes might not be well versed in the use of computers. Might it prove cost-effective to run a radio and television advertising campaign to make people aware of what is available to them? There is a lack of ability among certain individuals in the context of accessing information. Information is probably available in certain formats but some people have a difficulty in accessing it.

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

I will reply to the questions relating to community employment schemes and the dissemination of information and Mr. Hayden will comment on flexibility in respect of apprenticeships and the issue of adult literacy.

In conjunction with Forfás, the Department is currently reviewing all labour market programmes in the context of their effectiveness, efficiency and the route they should take in the future. Community employment schemes obviously come into the mix in this regard and we will review all of the programmes in the round. We hope the review will be completed in the autumn.

There is an issue with regard to the dissemination of information and I take the Deputy's point in respect of the need to present information in such a way that it can be easily accessible to the people at whom it is aimed. There is a network of agencies throughout the system that deliver information. I refer here to FÁS employment services, local employment services, partnerships, the Citizens Information Board, and so on. It is a challenge to ensure that the information is disseminated to the right people. In that context, we must consider whether people require information in respect of training, education, employment or whatever. Difficulties can arise where a person may be of the opinion that the information they are seeking is provided by a certain agency, whereas it is actually provided by another.

We face a challenge in the context of ensuring that those who deal with members of the public have all the relevant information at their disposal. We are working on that. There is a fairly extensive network of people involved at community level. These individuals are employed by FÁS, the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs or voluntary organisations such as the Citizens Information Board. It is a matter of trying to ensure that they have the information required by the public at their fingertips.

Mr. Pat Hayden

Our Departments work closely with NALA. It was NALA that originated the concept of establishing the workplace basic education fund to which Mr. Mulligan referred earlier. With regard to the promotion of training in the areas of literacy and numeracy, again both Departments have provided support to NALA in the context of its television series — which enjoyed quite strong penetration. I understand that 400,000 people, or 15% of the viewing public, watched the programme. This had knock-on effects in that people sought out the services of the vocational education committees and other bodies to return to learning and address their literacy and numeracy difficulties.

As for the apprentices, Mr. Dermot Mulligan, Ms Anne Forde and Mr. Seamus Hempenstall have gone through different approaches that have been put in place to assist them and I will add another one or two that may be of interest. At present, FÁS is working on the problem whereby apprentices who are in the seventh phase cannot get signed off definitively with a craft certificate because of the absence of an on-the-job assessment. From next autumn, FÁS proposes to provide such apprentices with the capacity to do this assessment within a simulated situation in a FÁS training centre. Hopefully, this will address this problem. Moreover, through Léargas, a European Union programme that also is jointly administered by both Departments, approximately 100 apprentices already have completed their seventh phase placement abroad in Germany. FÁS also is considering other opportunities in Finland that may play a part in this regard.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

I welcome the delegation. I have learned more in the past hour than I have learned for a long time. On the subject of disseminating and co-ordinating information to participants and so on, perhaps more focus should be centred on public representatives in general. I do not refer to Deputies only but to public representatives in general, who receive such queries continually in their clinics. While Mr. Mulligan noted all the information is on a website, many Deputies are not as efficient on the website as the witnesses probably are. Although I do not know how it would be done, public representatives have an important role to play in respect of job creation and getting people back to work.

As for co-ordination between agencies, the witnesses have given members an insight today into how it works. I had not been aware previously that various Departments are involved. I am sure the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Health and Children and the others are involved in this worthwhile activity. During the Celtic tiger period, many of our people did not get involved in particular classes of employment, such as hospitality, the meat industry, market gardening, horticulture and so on. Foreign people came in and took up such jobs, many of whom now are leaving and returning home. Are the witnesses targeting these sectors? General workers are in as much need of training as solicitors, barristers and the other groups that are unemployed. At present, unemployment is not limited to lower income sectors but also affects higher income sectors.

As for FÁS schemes, the witnesses noted there will be an increase of 400 places in community employment, CE, schemes this year. Why has the increase been capped at 400 places in the current year? The CE scheme is doing tremendous work. Many good people have gone through CE schemes and have secured gainful employment by participating in them. In respect of the interaction between the VECs, FÁS and the universities, I am sure second-level education must play an important role in getting people back to work. This is also true of the range of night classes being provided by community and VEC schools to qualify people and bring them up to a standard. I am unsure whether such courses provide people with certification. Some do, whereas I understand that other courses do not. However, unemployed people require a focus and it is good when people can attend a night class for two or three nights a week.

The witnesses should comment on the focus on the employer. Everyone is familiar with the provision of pre-retirement courses for people approaching retirement. What about people who face redundancy? Do employers have responsibility to ensure that those who are about to be let go have been equipped in some way to enter the jobs market? On the respective roles of the unions and the local authorities, are the unions fully behind what the witnesses are attempting to do or do blockages exist between the unions and employers? I listened with interest to the points about apprentices and the worthwhile attempts to put in place courses in FÁS that simulate employment, rather than obliging apprentices to find an employer, which is proving to be impossible. I mentioned local authorities because I am unsure whether they play a role in CE schemes or whether they are allowed to so do. If not, why not?

Chairman

I will add to the comments on CE schemes and the witnesses should respond. Some people participate in such schemes as part of a rehabilitation and training programme, which is very important. However, the break comes suddenly without any flexibility, despite the lip service paid to the concept. There is no flexibility notwithstanding the fact that some participants consider this their opportunity and are trying to work their way through. When their year or two is up, that is the end of it. It is important to have flexibility. Deputy Fitzpatrick mentioned the capping of numbers participating in the CE scheme. He is correct that the increase was small and my understanding is that the numbers were capped because the grants for support, training and material were reduced.

I refer to an issue the ordinary person on the street cannot understand. If participants in community employment schemes only get the same amount of money as those in receipt of jobseeker's allowances or whatever, would one not be better off making a contribution within one's community via a CE scheme? Such schemes facilitate learning and elements of upskilling because they always have a supervisor who has particular skills. For the most part, these schemes make a tremendous contribution to community enhancement in their localities. It simply is a matter of shifting money from one pot in the Department of Social and Family Affairs to another in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, to be administered by FÁS. Ordinary people on the street are perplexed as to the reason there must be a cap of X thousand, even though it was announced two weeks ago that 418,000 people are unemployed. This does not make sense. What prevents the transfer of some of the aforementioned money to CE schemes, on which people can make a contribution to the community? They are willing to so do.

There has been no flexibility in the community employment schemes. The parameters that applied when times were good still apply today when they are not. Where is the innovation, flexibility or fresh thinking to meet a new situation? These are the questions people ask of members when they attend their clinics. Elderly people might have a young person in the household who has become unemployed and they want that young person to fall into the way of thinking that one must put in 19 or 20 hours of work. At the least, such schemes return people to a workplace environment in which they may well pick up new skills, even if this only entails learning how to paint. All sorts of skills such as learning how to lay blocks are employed in community environment employment schemes and the witnesses should take credit for this. Deputy Cyprian Brady lauded the contribution by people in community employment schemes operating in urban areas in particular. However, in rural areas, community employment schemes and their participants were the major contributors to the community enhancement and environmental improvements recorded in respect of the anti-litter scheme that is administered, as well as in respect of the tidy towns evaluations. Community employment scheme participants were the greatest single contributor in this regard. They made a valuable contribution. Everyone won and everyone rode along on the tide of the participation levels. Moreover, people had something to do.

While my next question may be for the Government and none of the POs will answer, it must be asked. Where is the rationale behind continuing to fund one pot instead of transferring some of its funds to another pot, which would provide some contribution? It is mind boggling. Since I probably do not understand how the Government works, let us leave it at that.

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

We will reflect on the point about information. As Departments, we rely on parliamentary questions, of which there are many regarding these issues and what we are doing. We will determine whether we could do something to provide Members with better information, as it could be of benefit.

The pre-redundancy situation and the role of employers were mentioned. Employers have a responsibility. Where FÁS becomes aware of a potential redundancy and the company co-operates, FÁS will happily and proactively enter that company and speak with those who are about to become redundant about their employment and training options and so on. Sometimes, the employer does not co-operate, but it is right to state that the employer has a responsibility.

Local authorities expressed an interest in engaging with the new work placement scheme to which I referred. They are discussing their proposal on the matter with FÁS. The trade unions agree with the thrust of the policy. Committee members will know that, in general, the social partners have been to the fore in engaging with the Government on what the response to unemployment should be. Engagement at that level is active.

Regarding community employment, CE, schemes, questions were asked about the increase of only 400 places and whether it would have been better to spend money for social welfare allowances on CE schemes instead. To put CE schemes in the context of Jobsearch, training and work experience measures, the evidence across the OECD area is that the best and most effective support that an unemployed person can be given is job search support, that is, helping him or her to find a job. The second most effective support is training, that is, upskilling someone for a particular job. The third most effective support is work experience, including programmes like the CE schemes or our recently launched work placement programme. The latter follows the principle mentioned, in that participants continue to receive their social welfare allowances. After being placed in a firm for a period, they can use that work experience to get a job in the open labour market. Participants in CE schemes receive the equivalent of the social welfare allowances that they would otherwise get, but running the programme has an additional cost, which places a constraint on the number of available places.

The increase was small because we considered how to respond effectively with scale. There was a mix of programmes, including a significant increase of more than 90,000 training places in 2009. As the number of people unemployed has increased by hundreds of thousands, we must engage with a large number of people as effectively as possible. This required a mix of programmes.

In terms of the operation of CE schemes, different types of participant are shown flexibility. For example, people who have been on disability-related payments stay on the schemes for longer, as do people aged over 55 years. Certain people are permitted to continue on schemes for seven years. If someone retains a CE place, it cannot be taken by someone else, given the fixed budget. If someone on the scheme does not move on to the next stage, he or she would prevent someone who has become unemployed, one of a growing number, from engaging in the scheme. These are the realities on the ground.

My colleagues from the Department of Education and Science may want to touch on the questions regarding VECs.

Deputy Damien English

I apologise because I must leave in a moment to attend another committee meeting. The committee wants an expansion in the number of CE and labour activation schemes to create jobs. I accept that all research shows the schemes are down the pecking order during a time of full employment and in retraining situations, but there are no jobs for the hundreds of thousands of people who are unemployed and the numbers will probably grow in the future. Every committee member believes that an expansion or new version of the CE schemes, such as a labour activation scheme, might facilitate jobs for a period. A person would be employed and something, such as a capital project, could be achieved with a means to returning to full employment in a more fruitful job. It could bridge a gap over a serious problem.

I accept that new schemes would incur costs, but employing more people in social welfare offices and elsewhere would also incur additional costs. While the schemes' costs would be neutral, people could be employed to run them. We cannot understand why there has been no movement in this regard. The issue has been discussed on the floor of the Lower House for 12 months or longer, but no one has given us a real reason for not doing it. Perhaps it could be called something other than a CE scheme, but the problem now is that there are no new schemes for the hundreds of thousands of people with brilliant skills who are not engaging in useful employment. We must wake up to this fact because we cannot continue as is.

Chairman

That is the issue. It needs fresh thinking.

Deputy Damien English

Yes.

Chairman

The old solution dressed up is not a solution. It should be thrown out.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

Mr. Mulligan spoke of people moving on from CE schemes. From my involvement in the schemes, I have always had great faith in their supervisors and sponsors. If they have a hands on approach in the scheme, people will move on. The schemes have a good record of people moving into employment, but a number, such as some people with disabilities or special needs, remain because they are not capable of moving on to something else. The record of people acquiring employment from the schemes of which I know has been excellent. It is money well spent.

Chairman

I agree with Deputy Fitzpatrick. A CE scheme caters for people who would not otherwise be in a position to hold down a full-time job. It gives them an opportunity to be active in their community and make a contribution. Its value cannot be calculated. Mr. Mulligan can tell that this matter exercises us greatly.

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

There is no doubt that it is a significant challenge. A considerable number of unemployed people need support to return to work. We view work experience, in CE or other schemes, as part of the response. We see great potential in the work placement programme, which involves placement with employers in the open labour market. We hope some people engaged in these will be kept on by employers. There is no requirement for that but they are in a position to make contacts and have shown they have the skills to do the job. If nothing else, it puts them in a good position to say that they have worked in that area and if they do not find a position with that employer, they may with another. That is one example where there are no additional costs or the overhead we talked about.

Unlike the previous recession, a significant number of people becoming unemployed have high levels of skills and qualification. They can engage in the open labour market and will get work. That people are still getting work from the live register is not widely known. In June, 16,500 left the live register. In the 12 months to May, more than 150,000 people left the live register to work. A much larger number left the live register overall. There is churn in the labour market and we must facilitate people leaving the live register to work. The community employment scheme does this. We are rolling out the work placement programme and it may be that this new response has great potential.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Mulligan.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

I was not aware of the work placement programme. Local authorities get involved in this scheme but my information is that local authorities have laid off many people in recent months. Those who were let go from local authorities are waiting to get back in. If councils are allowed to take people on work placement schemes, and they fit nicely into the scheme, is there a chance they will get preferential treatment over those let go? I am concerned about this.

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

There are risks with any scheme like this. We built in safeguards to ensure employers do not let people go and then recruit the same, or similar, people through the work placement scheme. There is a limit on the number of places and a minimum period between letting someone go and taking someone on under the scheme. There are safeguards to address the risks that exist, which we are trying to minimise.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Dermot Mulligan, Mr. Patrick Hayden, Mr. Seamus Hempenstall and Ms Anne Forde for their assistance. Mr. Hempenstall and Ms Forde were surprised to find themselves assigned to this brief. It was a new way to get around the curtailment of employment. I know they have considerable communication with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. This was an interesting discussion. We know they are trying to work as best they can in this new environment.

Learning in the workplace is important. In that context, we hold what we have because we need constant improvement and upskilling to protect the jobs that exist. It is as important as creating new jobs. It should receive the same priority and care. We know the delegation is working in this regard. Lifelong learning is an accepted principle. We encourage the Departments of Education and Science and Enterprise, Trade and Employment to continue to do everything they can to ensure the principle becomes reality and to facilitate the workforce in giving of its best and benefitting from the returns in that regard.

We would like to ask much more about back to education initiatives and higher education but we must leave it for another day. A visiting member of the Australian Parliament has been waiting in the wings. We may well return in the autumn to discuss further issues. When I was a young councillor in the 1980s, a wise old councillor used to tell me that plans were not worth a damn unless one had the flexibility to implement them. It is a profound statement and I never forgot it. The councillor, who is long since dead, told me that in 1982 or 1983. I know there are rules and regulations but the best laid plans can be stymied if they are caught up in regulatory frameworks. We are carefully watching the level of regulation imposed on the implementation of schemes. There is almost a bureaucratic index that should be examined in that context. Many of the objectives may well be hamstrung by the regulatory framework imposed on them.

What harm if someone on a community employment scheme, who may be ill but is making a contribution in that area, goes beyond seven years? The person is making a contribution and helping. The participation in society outweighs the rigidity of insisting that the term is seven years. If one is 45 years old, why should one not continue to the age of 55 rather than 52 if one has made a contribution? The officials may reply that the person will eat up a place that someone else could use but the Department of Social and Family Affairs can stretch to another €122 and contribute it to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. If the same supervisor will be assigned, and is working well with this person, there will be no additional cost. The supervisor can take on eight on a scheme as readily as seven. That argument falls. How people remain active in participation in the labour market should be the focus of a significant debate in the Government. The civil servant answer to this may be that this is considered a political decision, which is a good answer that has stood the test of time, but I alert the officials to the degree of concern in this committee, which represents all parties. We want to ensure people are given the opportunity to be actively engaged. The workplace programme was introduced and the Tánaiste tells me the Department will adopt the Labour Party earn and learn scheme. It is a time for much innovation. We are in a period where the old solutions will not work.

I thank the officials for their patience and contributions. It was interesting. Deputy Fitzpatrick said he learned more in this hour than in previous hours. It is a tribute to the delegation, who can leave happy. The dissemination of information to those who need to get it is important. The officials can reflect on this in deliberations in the Department.