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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT debate -
Tuesday, 14 Jul 2009

Enterprise, Trade and Employment Matters: Discussion with Australian Delegation.

I thank Deputy Varadkar who kept our next guest entertained for an important period. As a member of the committee, Deputy Varadkar is well aware that matters planned for an hour can continue for an hour and a half; we did not anticipate that we would be here for as long as we have been. I thank Deputy Varadkar in that regard.

We will discuss enterprise, trade and employment matters of mutual interest to Ireland and Australia. I welcome Mr. Michael Keenan, Member of the Australian Parliament, for the constituency of Stirling in Western Australia. Mr. Keenan has a particular interest in industrial relations, an area which is coming more and more to the fore. I am interested to hear his views on that subject. I know he has had a discussion with Deputy Varadkar and I am sure he has brought him up to speed on current events and our situation. If Mr. Keenan, MP, was here two years ago it would have been in a different environment with different issues to address. We are glad to have him here and we thank him for coming. We look forward to his contribution. I will allow Mr. Keenan, MP, to address the committee after which we will have an exchange of views on various issues.

Mr. Michael Keenan, MP

I appreciate the committee taking the time to see me; I am not sure what the committee wants me to address but I am the shadow Minister for employment and workplace relations.

Mr. Keenan can refer to issues relevant to Australia in the wider field of enterprise and trade and we might compare how the issues are pertinent to here and Australia. We can also discuss the industrial relations environment. Mr. Keenan has free range.

Mr. Michael Keenan, MP

I am the shadow Minister for employment and workplace relations, which is at Cabinet level in the Opposition and deals specifically with the design of the industrial relations system. It is a fraught political issue in Australia and has been one of the major political battlegrounds between us and the Australian Government. It was certainly an important issue in the lead-up to our most recent election, which was in 2007. Unfortunately, my party lost.

I suppose the situation is Australia is very similar to that in which Ireland finds itself. We are facing a very difficult international environment. Australia is probably weathering the storm slightly more robustly than countries in Europe where the recession seems to be more challenging although Australia faces its own set of challenges. We started the period in a favourable position as there was no government debt in Australia prior to the recession and our Government had a significant surplus of approximately Australian $20 billion. Unemployment was exceptionally low; we had full employment and the employment rate in my home state of Western Australia was approximately 2.2%. Business everywhere was pleading for more labour and we had the absurd situation whereby in the midst of an economic burn businesses were forced to close down because they could not find workers; this was despite the fact that we have very significant immigration.

I am in Ireland to find out more about the Irish experience; how it is dealing with rising unemployment and the challenges associated with a very difficult global economic environment. Australia and Ireland have reasonably similar economies in the sense that we rely on exports to grow the economic pie so I am very keen to hear about the Irish experience. I am very happy to engage in a conversation with the committee but I am here to learn as opposed to tell the committee what to do.

Mr. Keenan and I have been talking for a while and have had a good exchange of views. What is interesting for Australia that is a little different for us is that its unemployment rate is still on 5% or 6% despite the situation it is in.

Mr. Michael Keenan, MP

The rate is 5.8%.

Before I met Mr. Keenan I examined the figures; the Australian economy will shrink by approximately 0.5% this year.

Mr. Michael Keenan, MP

Technically we are not in recession and the economy is not shrinking. It is a rather technical point; we have not had two quarters of negative growth. I suppose we are not growing and we are not shrinking.

The hit we are taking is somewhat different because it seems our economy will shrink by 15% between last year, this year and next year. It will the biggest recession in the history of the world since the Second World War with one exception.

Earlier, we discussed labour market issues and social partnership and Mr. Keenan mentioned how the laws on collective bargaining and the way employers and employees interrelate have changed and that might be of interest to members. I thought it was interesting as our system starts to fall apart in terms of what new system we will have in its place.

Mr. Michael Keenan, MP

Industrial relations are part of the history of Australia. We have a system that is unique to Australia. Traditionally, it has been very heavily regulated. We had a tripartite arrangement between business, unions and the Government. It has been difficult to reform that and there was much political resistance. There are two political parties in Australia and one of them, the Labour Party, is a party of the union movement. It forms the Government at present and traditionally it has had close links to the union movement.

When a wave of reform went through the economy in the 1980s and the 1990s, industrial relations reform was the last area that Australia reformed. Initially, the Labour Party Government reformed the system in 1993. When the Liberal Party came to office in 1996 we had another wave of reform. In 2006, we had a third wave of reform through a policy called work choices. In the broadest possible sense this was another level of deregulation of the labour market specifically trying to encourage employers to speak with employees directly without the interference of third parties.

That was a political battleground; we lost the election and the Government has re-regulated the system in a way that encourages more third-party involvement and arbitrated outcomes. A large central body, Fair Work Australia, can arbitrate a dispute. I do not want to get into issues of domestic policy but it is still a live issue between the parties in Australia.

Deputy Cyprian Brady took the Chair.

Does anyone else wish to contribute?

We will meet for lunch and we can discuss the matters in a more informal atmosphere.

Many Irish people have gone to Australia and done reasonably well, some have prospered. When we consider how the EU is struggling with the current situation and how Australia is handling it, we have much to learn from Australia rather than Australia learning from us. The economy here is very slow and unemployment is very high but it is slowing down at present. The issues arising in the EU are common to all member States. How would Mr. Keenan compare present emigration from Ireland and Australia? We are in recession and emigration is increasing. The Australian economy is not in recession; it may be on the brink of it but it is not in recession.

Mr. Michael Keenan, MP

Yes.

Is emigration beginning to increase? Are people beginning to leave the country, or is there migration into the country?

Mr. Michael Keenan, MP

I do not think people are leaving. Australia has always had a large immigration programme, which we have cut in light of rising unemployment. However, we are still taking about 100,000 migrants this year. I do not think there has been much extra migration from Australia. We increased the immigration programme during the boom years because we were running short of workers, but it has now been decreased.

It is hard to understand how shops and businesses are closing down because of a lack of workers.

Mr. Michael Keenan, MP

Australia has always taken in migrants. We are a nation of migrants and of course we have taken many Irish migrants; I assume a Keenan came across at some point. However, we have never had a programme for unskilled migrants. That is the difference here. The EU provides a pool of labour that is very mobile, whereas Australia does not have a mobile labour pool to draw on. We take skilled migrants, focusing on those with particular skills such as plumbers or electricians. Thus, we have a skilled stream through which most people come. We also have an active humanitarian programme under which we take migrants — generally, in recent years, from Africa — but we have never had a programme for unskilled migrants. That was the problem. Businesses were crying out for unskilled labour, to the point where, in the north of Western Australia, people were being paid up to 100,000 Australian dollars — which equates to about €50,000 — to manage fast food outlets because it was so difficult to find unskilled workers. Before the onset of the global recession we were debating what Australia would do to plug the gap in unskilled workers, but the recession has run over the top of that debate and it is now a moot point.

I welcome Mr. Keenan, who I think has an Irish name.

Mr. Michael Keenan, MP

I do not doubt it.

Here we have gone from boom to bust, as Mr. Keenan is aware. We previously had a level of unemployment as low as that of Australia, at 3% or 4%, with labour shortages despite immigration, but that is all changing now. Our economy was too closed and we depended too much on the construction industry. In the final year of the boom we built 90,000 houses, while in the UK 150,000 houses were built for a population of 60 million. We were not vigilant enough and did not watch what was going on. There was an influx of foreign institutions which created more competition for our native banking sector. Many here may not agree with what I am going to say, but that competition brought about massive lending. There was lending on demand; one did not have to give one's CV. Now, many of those institutions are leaving our island and moving on, and the courts are full of cases.

Australia is on the Pacific Rim and is thus major competition for Ireland as an agricultural country. It has very different weather to ours. The WTO is also an issue for our farmers, as anybody around this table with an interest in agriculture will know, because we have nearly returned to an agriculture-based economy. Any further liberalisation by the WTO will have a devastating effect on Irish agriculture. We compete with New Zealand, which is a neighbouring country of Australia. The North Island of New Zealand is the biggest dairy producer in the world, producing about four times more milk than we do. The New Zealand price for milk is about 13 cent, while ours is 20 cent, which is lower than the cost of production in an Irish context. Thus, there are quite a lot of problems for this country.

I am going into all the data and almost making a Second Stage speech. A total of 40% of our exports go to the UK, and the weakness of sterling means our exports are very expensive there while imports from the UK are cheaper. Forty percent is a large proportion of our exports, so we depend on the British market. These are the problems we face as an economy.

The figures simply do not add up for us. It is costing €60 billion to run our economy and we have a tax take of €34 billion. We pay €20 billion to the public service and spend €22 billion on social welfare. Thus, two thirds of what we get in is going the wrong direction, if one could put it that way. We are into deficit budgeting. We will be borrowing €25 billion or €30 billion this year and we cannot continue at this rate because we are part of the eurozone.

The Lisbon treaty is also on the agenda. This is vital for us because we have been good Europeans since 1973 and we are committed to the EU. We have benefited much from the EU, receiving funding of about €80 billion, which is a huge amount of money. Germany provides most of the EU budget, so it is annoyed with us over the Lisbon treaty. Thus, there are quite a few things on the agenda which go across party lines and have all-party support. That is a flavour of what is going on here at present. Australia is very far away but we envy it at times for a number of reasons. I welcome Mr. Keenan and wish him well for the few days he spends here. I have no doubt he will enjoy the hospitality of an Irish lunch later on.

I too welcome Mr. Keenan. When we speak about the similarities between Ireland and Australia we must bear in mind the massive difference in scale. Australia has a much bigger population and geographical area.

Over lunch, the committee members will fill Mr. Keenan in on certain issues. For example, we have a raft of different levels of industrial relations in this country and we have a long history of pioneering systems that have been adopted elsewhere in the world and particularly in parts of Europe.

Mr. Keenan is very welcome. The figure for unemployment in Australia at the moment is 5.8%. What are the opinions of the economic forecasters? Has it bottomed out at that level, or will unemployment continue to rise?

Mr. Michael Keenan, MP

According to the Government's own figures, this time next year we will have 8.5% unemployment. At the OECD, where I was last week, the thinking was that it would peak at about 8%. I do not think anyone could give a sensible explanation as to why that is the case because anecdotally we are receiving a lot of information about redundancies and mass lay-offs, but the figure has remained quite stubborn. At the rate it is going we will certainly not hit the peak of 8.5% predicted by the Treasury. It is certainly going up but it would be great if we could keep it below the forecast levels.

I have a friend who has lived in Brisbane for some time. He is a quantity surveyor and when he moved out there he set up his own business in the construction area. He was home at Christmas and when I spoke to him he said he felt things would get worse in his sector in the middle of this year. Is there any sector, such as building, which is being affected particularly badly? Are there sectors that are still thriving and doing well? Are there still skills shortages in Australia that could be filled by Irish migrant workers?

Mr. Michael Keenan, MP

Not so long ago I was in western Queensland, which is still going through a mining boom, mostly due to the demand for resources in China and the rest of Asia. China has also weathered the storm reasonably well. Construction is always a leading indicator of the state of the economy and I know the construction sector in Ireland has been hit hard, as it has in Australia. However, there are still parts of Australia that have very low unemployment and are in the midst of a mining boom. Mining is proving reasonably resilient because the demand for resources is still there.

We have a very efficient agricultural sector, although that is not an opportunity for people to come to the country because it is usually Australians who run that sector. Australia publishes a list of skills that are required — although I am not sure what is on it at the moment — and we will still be taking many migrants this year.

I thank Mr. Keenan. It has been an interesting start and we look forward to continuing our discussion over lunch. We will be joined for lunch by Her Excellency, Ms Anne Plunkett, Ambassador of Australia.

At our next meeting on Wednesday 29 July we will consider the financing of Irish business in an all day meeting. We have invited representatives of Allied Irish Banks, Bank of Ireland, The Central Bank, Chambers Ireland, Enterprise Ireland, the Association of Pension Funds, the Irish Auctioneers and Valuers Association and the Credit Bureau.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.10 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Wednesday 29 July 2009.
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