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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT (Sub-Committee on Job Creation Through Use of Renewable Energy Resources) debate -
Wednesday, 22 Jul 2009

Potential of Biomass Sector: Discussion.

I welcome Mr. Seán Daly, managing director, Mr. Anthony Gill, operations director, and Mr. Michael Murphy, general manager of Carbon Sole Industries Limited; and Mr. Rolf Lindgren, business manager for bio-fuels, and Mr. Lars Sundlof, project manager for engineering, Building Green Energy, Skellefteå Kraft, which is a Swedish company. I am sorry for abusing the company's name. I thank all the witnesses for their attendance.

Before we begin I must give the usual warning which the witnesses heard issued to their colleagues in the previous delegation. I draw their attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. Daly to make his presentation. He heard the restrictions we have. We gain more from the cross-examination and questions than lengthy presentations. He has given us some details. We are limited in our knowledge and are eager to get more.

Mr. Seán Daly

I thank the committee for its time. We will go through the presentation quickly to give the committee an overview so it can visualise what we are discussing in the development of the western corridor region. I will begin with my address and then lead directly into the presentation. Mr. Lindgren and I will give most of the address and answer most of the questions.

Our reason for being here is to provide the committee with an insight into our plans for the development of a sustainable green energy combine facility for the western corridor region and to discuss the current market conditions that affect the development of the sector. We hope our presentation to the committee today will provide further insights that may be taken into consideration for its report.

I wish to start by providing members with a brief background on Carbon Sole Industries Limited and its promoters, our project partners from Sweden, after which I would like to openly discuss our plans. I am the managing director of Carbon Sole Industries Limited and my background is that I hold a B.Comm and an M.A.; I am 36 years of age and have 12 years domestic and international experience. I have examined many projects abroad with a view to what I can transfer to Ireland. Mr. Anthony Gill is my partner in the business and is the founder of the company. We originally looked at smaller biomass-based systems for the west of Ireland, which led us for the last three years into research on what was most efficient.

This led to us finding a company, Skelleftea Kraft. We looked at various facilties across Europe and the market here. We employed different engineers under contract to examine the whole design and make an efficient, sustainable company. Generally, the skills are not available in this country. After working our way up through Europe to the north of Sweden, not too far from the Arctic Circle, we found a company. After a number of meetings and arrangements, we found that as it was a municipality it could not transfer its skills out of the area. However, a new company has been formed whereby we can transfer these skills into our project in Ireland.

A lot of what we discussed when we were examining our original design concerned efficiencies. Initially we looked at smaller operations based on wood chips, and then at those based on producing pellets. It became obvious very quickly that we needed a specific scale for optimisation. When we visited Skelleftea Kraft, we found a company that originally made its revenue streams from hydroelectric power. From these revenues, it had invested in examining the other natural resources in the area, such as biomass. It invested a lot of money. As it was a municipality, it was not for profit rather to invest back into the region and it invested much more than many companies normally would in innovation and technology to get the efficiencies that were required.

The map provided to the committee shows where Skelleftea Kraft is located. It is some 800 km north of Stockholm. It is owned by the municipality, has created a very sustainable environment for industry and has attracted many people to the area, which is normally a very difficult thing to do in northern Scandinavia. It is one of the largest investors in the region and is one of Sweden's largest energy companies. As I said in my address, it has designed and built the largest bio-fuelled power plant in Scandinavia, some 550 MW, and, combined, its normal yearly production amounts to 3,850 GW of power. It employs 470 people and in 2008 had a turnover of more than €330 million.

We are transferring the skills and expertise for the design and commissioning of our plant here. We have designed it. Mr. Rolf Lindgren will give some more detail on the company's background. We will then discuss this and show the committee our plans and the issues we must address.

Mr. Rolf Lindgren

In the late 1980s when we decided to use biomass fuelled power production we saw that the technology was not as efficient as we wanted. We started on a small scale with a more or less standard combined heat and power, CHP, plant. We were located next door to a sawmill whose leftovers we used to produce electric power and heat, which we delivered back to the sawmill. That was good as far as it went but it did not utilise all of the energy. We wanted more efficiency.

We built our own plant next to our city where we could sell more heating and had a bigger boiler to produce more electricity. The key aim was to produce biopellets. One then has an outlet for hot water which is refined, otherwise it is wasted. Many power plants utilise cooling towers when they do not need hot water.

The first bio-energy combinate yielded 35MW of electricity and 48MW district heating and hot water. By adding the pellet plant, producing biopellets we were able to get another 5MW of electricity plus the pellet that we can sell so that the overall efficiency of the plant is much higher. Such a bio-energy combine involves the raw material, biomass, coming in, producing electricity and hot water for district heating and then the wood pellets but we had a problem because there was no market for the pellets. Nobody used them.

At first we sold them in bulk to big power plants for co-firing. Then we installed burners in schools and hospitals and sold heat to them. We created a market for the biopellets. It took almost ten years to get that market going, with some help from the government which subsidised pellet burners for household uses. People hesitated because they were not sure they could trust the system or whether biopellets would be delivered.

From biomass we sell energy and electricity but the biopellets have become more and more important and we can produce more of them. Early this year we started our fourth plant which is a development of this bio-energy combine and we will increase production to almost 250,000 tonnes of biopellets. If one runs biomass and produces only electric power in a 30MW boiler one's efficiency will be approximately 35%. If one chooses a top of the range CHP plant, 88% of the energy coming in will be in a saleable form. It will provide hot water and electricity if the town is big enough to take this and people can pay for it. If they opt instead for a combine, as illustrated, we produce biopellets and we can achieve up to 98% efficiency. We can optimise the production among these three elements — the hot water, the electric power and the biopellets. We then optimise the way we run the plant. If we know it will be a cold day in January we will then lower the pellet production and send more hot water to the district heating system. In the same way, in the summer we will only produce pellets because there is no real usage for the hot water.

The company used the money we got from the hydropower to develop this combine, which we find very efficient. As we are running two plants already, we believe this is a proven technology. Everything is in place but we have to develop this technology ourselves.

In terms of the future, we are putting our money into research to produce ethanol out of cellulose, which is not easy. We have a pilot plant running. That is what we see for the future, namely, the best combine where we have all four products.

Mr. Seán Daly

Taking what Mr. Lindgren has discussed, many boxes were ticked in terms of the places we had travelled to. That led to us entering into arrangements to design and build our own efficient facility for Ireland. The picture shows the design of our facility. We will do some refining based on the visit this week and some other work we are doing but generally in terms of what members can see, in the background, the taller building with the pipes is our CHP plant including the boiler, the larger building, the turbines and the building with the pipes above it. Connected into that at the front would be our materials handling section. We had to do a good deal of feasibility work on that, and an issue we will discuss later is the availability of raw materials supply but also the most efficient use of that in job creation. To the right is the pellet production area. That includes a standard pellet production line for our use of residues and pulp wood and also a research and development line for other materials. The larger building at the front is a storage area.

This facility that we designed and for which we will seek planning permission is a 50 megawatt CHP pellet combine. It will produce 17 MW of electricity per hour, 33 MW of heat hot water and 16 tonnes of pellets. Producing per annum it has a combined total of 833 GW of green energy, which is substantial and will go a long way towards Ireland's requirements in growing renewable energy sources.

In terms of the job creation we have detailed, approximately 50 people will be directly employed within the facility across operations, administration, marketing and sales. In the construction phase, which will take two years, we have come up with a turn key solution. While we are building the civil engineering works here, the critical components, including the turbines and so on, will be built elsewhere. Between 75 and 100 people will be employed in the construction end of the project. On the supply of materials, in terms of supply chain management, in excess of 100 people will be employed. Haulage will be a large part of that, taking whatever viable resource is available within a 120 kilometre area.

The position of our plant on the western corridor area is appropriate with respect to the amount of forestry from Donegal down to Clare, Mayo, Galway and Roscommon. In terms of services and support industries, in our area we will look at supplying heat directly to industry and hopefully provide a green business park with manufacturing energy. In more remote areas in smaller towns and villages, we hope to supply district heating based on providing pellets through boilers. We will utilise local people and resources, including many from the construction area who are now unemployed such as plumbers, electricians and so on.

Our biomass requirement is a critical aspect of this project. We have met the relevant people, private and public, and generally what we are looking at in our pellet manufacturing is a requirement of approximately 210,000 tonnes, which is approximately 190,000 cubic metres of pulp wood. That pulp wood is required to have the high standard of pellet where we are looking at 4.8 MW per tonne minimum.

Our requirement in respect of CHP fuel is about 170,000 tonnes or about 155,000 cubic metres. The fuel used would generally be wood left on the forest floor ranging from branches to tree tops and any other type of waste material in the region. We have designed our CHP to be capable of taking a number of different types of fuel.

We have had meetings with different regional producer groups. We will examine different types of fuel which are more suitable for CHP and which can then be — to use research and development language — pelletised. Rotational crops will take considerable pressure off the lack of availability of biomass in this market.

We ask the committee to take on board a number of considerations. We are aware that the feed-in tariffs are €120 MWh. That is set for ten years but it needs to be set for a minimum of 15 years because of the capital investment in this project. When our investors examine the structure of this project, the critical components are, first, do we have a supply of raw materials and can we get a contract to meet at least a percentage of that supply. The second component is what is known as the spread risk. When one considers the supply of materials, the cost of them versus the cost in terms of the electricity produced, that will impact on our revenue streams. The costs involved in biomass supply in Ireland are quite high compared to the costs in Sweden. Our haulage costs are higher. Our CPH fuel cost can range from being between 15% to 50% higher here and our pulpwood cost can be 50% higher.

The revenue streams we get from the feed in tariffs will be utilised to develop a pellet market. The reheat schemes and green home schemes have been effective but they will be in place only until 2010. Mr. Michael Murphy has been out targeting and researching specific markets. In terms of spending money on capital equipment, while it is good one has the funds to do so, many people have not invested in such equipment because they are not sure of the continuity of supply. No one wants to spend money on converting to a biomass-based fuel system, a pellet boiler for instance, if one has to reply on imports and there is not a large supply of the equipment in the marketplace. Therefore, I would ask the committee to consider extending the grants beyond 2010 because our plans are to have this facility operational by 2012 at the latest.

With respect to the various incentives that exist, we have looked at how ROCs are used in the UK. By using heat in our facility to dry materials to produce pellets, what we are doing is storing our heat to be used at a later date. By doing something similar in the UK, one would get ROCs. By producing hot water and using it for district heating schemes, one would get double ROCs, as it were. The way that this is calculated and maintained can create difficulties but the main revenue stream that would be viable for this would be the feed in tariffs.

With respect to the end users, the grant funding is important. With respect to district heating, there is a potential to develop such schemes in many small towns in various counties. A small circuit or network of pipes could be laid which would be fed off a centralised boiler and pellets and that supply to the houses would be metered and charged. That would need some incentivisation for the first few years to build up the market.

Any industry to which we supply heat and electricity should be given levy exemption certificates, which, effectively, are carbon credits. That is a synopsis of our operation. I apologise for rushing through it but I am aware of the time element. I will take any questions members may have.

I very much welcome the representatives' presentation and I congratulate them on what their company is doing here. I have a few questions specifically for Mr. Lindgren. He spoke about bio-fuel and ethanol. What feedstocks does his company use and is it second generation bio-fuel, lignose, cellulose or at what stage is his company in that respect? I wish to ask him about the cost of his company's feed in tariff compared to Ireland.

Mr. Rolf Lindgren

The feedstock is based on cellulose. It is wood. We considered wood only.

Mr. Rolf Lindgren

Yes. We have a pilot plant up and running. A great deal of capital is needed to scale it up fully. We have an expert on ethanol production here. It will not be ready next year or the year after. We now think it will be five to ten years before it is commercially viable.

Mr. Seán Daly

What about the sugar cane?

Mr. Rolf Lindgren

The sugar cane is easy.

Mr. Seán Daly

What of the price?

Mr. Rolf Lindgren

It is difficult to crack the cellulose. That second generation would be a real breakthrough, but nobody has yet managed to make a full-scale commercial plant. When it comes to tariffs we have that for green energy, but we have so much energy in our country that we are getting 3.5 cent, which is very low.

I thank Mr. Lindgren.

I welcome the delegation. Ireland is a green country with a lot of timber stocks. I understand Mr. Daly's company uses a lot of timber and that there is quite a lot of waste. Everything is prioritised today but pallets are a nuisance as they are discarded in farmyards and at crossroads. Up to recently, when the building industry was buoyant, shredded pallets were being used for covering flower beds. Can pallets be used in Mr. Daly's operation? I am farming myself and quite a lot of wood is used for fencing. Years ago when I was growing up, neighbours would fell trees for burning, but no one does that now. There is quite a lot of wood around in the countryside that could be utilised. Mr. Daly mentioned the cost involved but it would be sold below cost in many areas and transport would be the only issue. Is Mr. Daly's company available to take waste from ash and sycamore trees, as well as blackthorns and fences?

Mr. Seán Daly

Yes.

Where is Mr. Daly's company situated?

Mr. Seán Daly

We have reviewed eight sites in the western corridor region, including Mayo, Roscommon, Galway and Sligo.

He will have to come to south Munster.

Does it not extend to the midlands?

Mr. Seán Daly

A lot of it was to do with logistics. It does extend to the western midlands and we have reviewed sites in Offaly also.

Does Mr. Daly's market include all types of timber?

Mr. Seán Daly

What is important is the location of the facility. One of the largest costs is trying to gather the materials to bring them to the facility. When we looked at this the first priority question was in respect of pallets. Mr. Michael Murphy has talked to a number of industries about taking their pallets. They would have quite a large number. This was what was taken into consideration when we were designing our facility. If one was to put certain CHP units on miscanthus grass alone, there is a heavy ash content so one would have to design a specific boiler. We knew we could not run them on pulpwood because we do not have enough availability. Even though there is quite an availability of timber in the country, it is already going to specific contracts, including sawmills and panel board manufacturers. In addition, a percentage of it is going into co-firing at Edenderry and so on. We had to ensure that this was a viable model. Various wastewoods, like pallets and recycled wood fibres are perfect for our CHP because they have low moisture content and it reduces the tonnage by nearly 50% compared to burning green waste.

With respect to other crops such as willow, the bark of the crop and thinnings are better for CHP. In our pellets we have to keep a certain bark content, if any, so that we can certify them. Originally, Skelleftea Kraft was involved in heading the EU certification process for pellets. Generally, our pellets will have to be from pulpwood, sawdust and woodchips.

From the waste in sawmills.

Mr. Seán Daly

Yes. We will have to compete with the likes of various co-firing plants and panel board plants to get that. We are viewing both sides of the N17 route, within 50 km.

My point is that in rural Ireland, where people are so dependent on oil, it is terrible that they will not utilise native trees such as sycamore and beech, which were traditionally used in the past. People in rural areas do not burn timber to heat their homes; they all use oil central heating systems.

Mr. Seán Daly

The Deputy is correct.

That is a terrible state of affairs.

Mr. Seán Daly

In Sweden, people use the phrase "oil is for cars". Eucalyptus trees produce quite good material after 12 years. As already stated, we have been discussing the matter with private and public forestry concerns. Our greatest difficulty is that there are 5,000 private foresters in the area and we must examine the dynamics involved in bringing all of that material together. Private forestry needs an outlet for its sawmill or sawlog grade timber and this sets the price for the pulpwood timber. Projects such as ours are encouraging people to think that their pulpwood timber is probably more viable and that they will obtain a greater return in respect of it than they will for sawmill timber. What is needed, therefore, is a resource.

In the 1980s, there were incentives to plant trees but these were not tied in to the management of the forestry or to the harvesting of timber for supply to specific industries. What we have is a great deal of private forestry which produces much more pulpwood timber. This is much more suitable for our purposes than sawmill grade timber but the returns for growers will be less.

What varieties of trees are used to produce pulpwood timber?

Mr. Seán Daly

Spruce and pine.

So native varieties such as ash and sycamore are not suitable.

Mr. Seán Daly

No. From a renewable and sustainability perspective, it only takes 20 years to grow pine, spruce and eucalyptus trees here.

Is that why Sweden is so successful?

Mr. Seán Daly

It takes trees 100 years to grow in Sweden. It only takes 20 years here.

Is that due to our high level of rainfall?

Mr. Seán Daly

There are many factors.

Mr. Rolf Lindgren

Sweden has a colder climate and trees do not grow in the winter there.

Is it due to the fact that there is more moisture in Ireland?

Mr. Seán Daly

Our weather is milder.

The shape of trees in the two countries is much different. Trees in Sweden tend to be quite straight and tall, whereas in Ireland they are different.

Mr. Seán Daly

That is why thinning and management are so important.

I live near a timber plant and the people who work there are always in fear of losing their jobs as a result of a shortage of timber. At present, the plant is importing its timber from Scotland. Mr. Daly's company would be more than welcome to establish operations in the south rather than keeping them in the west.

It is difficult to encourage someone from County Mayo to leave the west.

Is Carbon Sole Industries Limited depending on activity in the construction sector to recommence in the context of the community heating aspect of its business? Is it the case that greenfield construction sites would be necessary in order for the company to have its community heating pipes put in place? Would it be viable to excavate roads, pathways, etc., in order to run such pipes into existing homes?

Mr. Seán Daly

It is extremely difficult to cost such work at present. In light of the downturn, subcontracting such work to different companies would be more cost effective than would have been the case two, five or six years ago. The spread relating to the feed-in tariffs for the electricity we supply and the cost of the supply, which we need to classify as energy materials — that is, pulpwood and waste wood — will provide further revenue streams by means of which the pellet market can be developed. This would probably be more effective in smaller towns and villages and in developments of 50 to 200 houses. What would happen would be that a smaller loop would be created and if, for example, a school or similar facility were located a mile outside that loop, an independent pellet boiler could be put in place there.

With regard to the grants that are available under greener home and reheat schemes, I would like the committee to take into consideration that should local authorities put forward towns in their areas which are not connected to gas pipelines, etc., they could consider providing heat and hot water in the homes in such towns through these schemes. However, some type of funding would be necessary and, perhaps, we could match this.

As Mr. Daly will be aware from the comments that have been made, other members and I are well disposed to his proposal. How much work would be required to alter Carbon Sole Industries Limited in order to accommodate the burning of, for example, domestic waste? Is the company a Trojan horse in the context of incineration?

Mr. Seán Daly

I will be honest. We would examine the area of domestic waste in the context of using our heat to dry it and convert it into pellets. Such pellets might be more suitable for co-firing rather than domestic use because of the higher ash content. Part of our facility includes laboratories for certification purposes and part of our production line includes a research and development line and together with third level institutions — I have spoken to a few — there is the potential to examine all these areas and to see where it is best to get the calorific value out of it. Would it be best to dry the waste and put it into a CHP or is there potentially a product that could be utilised later to provide the heat at another location or when it is required most?

I share Mr. Daly's interest in calorific values and so on but I have a major concern about the emissions from such fuels. The dioxin level soars when one moves away from timber and natural products.

Mr. Seán Daly

Our core is based on biomass and waste wood. That is our principal business but to be a progressive and sustainable company, the research and development element will examine other areas.

It is a licensing issue for the future.

Mr. Seán Daly

Exactly, but the key requirement is supply. It is difficult to obtain the commitment for the supply we need.

I welcome Mr. Daly. Is CSIL proceeding with the project on the western corridor?

Mr. Seán Daly

Yes.

Mr. Daly mentioned several risk factors, including haulage hire, the cost and availability of biomass and the capital investment involved. He sees it as a viable project and believes the risks are worth taking. They have been factored in and the company is proceeding. He referred to selection criteria for sites. Is this model very much dependent on securing the appropriate site?

Mr. Seán Daly

Yes.

If the company secures the optimal site in the country, there is, therefore, limited potential for a similar development on the eastern corridor.

Mr. Seán Daly

No, this is a regionalised business model. In the area we will be in, in the beginning, we may produce pellets and sell them to others who are installing heating systems elsewhere. It, therefore, helps them to promote district heating systems and pellet boilers because they can say they have a supply in the area that is made from Irish resources. Eventually it would consolidate back to that area and then we would hope to build an industry infrastructure and an eco-town system around the core facility. It would be an anchor generator of employment and development for the area. The model could be established on a regionalised basis in Ireland but everything comes down to efficiencies. Current EU studies rate various different tariffs on the efficiency of plants. Our location has much to do with the supply for raw materials. Within Munster, significant raw material is supplied from Cork and elsewhere and the south east could be supplied by Wicklow and so on.

We are Mayo men and we have a few Swedes and we are looking at the N17-western rail corridor route. Less hot water is required in the summer but certain industries need a great deal of heat. We are in advanced discussions with a number of companies to reduce the unit cost of the heat they require, which will make them sustainable. Theirs is a large usage and they would take up the excess heat in times they need it. The rest of the heat could be diverted to a small town, which would make it efficient and reduce the reliance on other fossil fuels and oil in the area.

If one spreads out from the centre hub, one would consider more pellet-based systems, which are manageable. We would manage them. We would take away the waste, put in the pellets and maintain and certify the systems. I would not be worried that the model could cover the entire country. It is very much a regional model. We had examined smaller pellet production facilities in different areas that a number of other organisations use but they are not sustainable because a company can import pellets much cheaper than producing them unless it has a critical mass and has achieved the efficiencies we have discussed.

Because he is a Mayo man, Mr. Daly would not necessarily do it in the western corridor if he felt it was more viable to do it in the east or the midlands. There is high potential for the western corridor, for the reasons he has outlined, but maybe not so for the rest of the country.

Mr. Seán Daly

The fuel supply is the main thing for us. There is fuel supply. There is talk of private forestry coming on line to provide fuel but no one can give a commitment to supply. We are looking at an €85 million project. For that funding to be released, we need an availability of supply and contracts for supply. It is very difficult to get those. We have had excellent communications. The relevant authorities are very open and we are very thankful to them. However, those organisations have the same problems as we do. Currently, the annual forestry harvest in Ireland is 3 million cubic metres. Approximately 2.6 cubic metres of that is harvested by the State forester and 400,000 cubic metres by private forestry. Approximately 400,000 cubic metres of logs are imported. Out of that, 2.2 million cubic metres goes to the sawmill grade industry, leaving more than a million cubic metres of residue which would be suitable for what we are doing. However, much of that goes into panel board manufacturing. Many panel board manufacturers may have reduced requirements, given their dependence on the construction industry. Much of it is going to co-firing and a small amount to other people who have agreements. Others have their own CHP facilities, where they are burning the residues themselves. There is not enough there. Two or three years ago we were using only residue. We simply compressed sawdust into pellets. It has become obvious in the past year what scale of operation and investment is required to make a return and to make the business attractive for investors, particularly for foreign direct investment.

We have answered the questions about the risk involved. We do not have the skills here. We have answered the questions about location and where the resource is. What we need are incentives to get the energy based material out to where it is required. Companies which have the resources to manage and harvest forests must be put in place. If only one organisation can do that, others may need to be established which can do the same.

I ask members to consider incentives for growing and harvesting fuel for energy. Currently, there is enough forestry in the country to meet the existing contracts for sawmills and panel board. It is very difficult to get contracts elsewhere unless private forestry is procured. We are not forestry people. The economics of working that out are very difficult, even for those in the business. Those who have managed a forest will know that if you have not managed a forest it is very difficult.

One of the sub-committee's proposals is for a Solarteur school to educate people in the technologies and in looking after boilers. How do you view that proposal? Would it be an important step? They are available in France, Germany and other places.

Mr. Seán Daly

The skills from Skellefteå are very important for training our core people who then go out and train regional groups. People who do not have jobs at present can be up-skilled.

I hoped this enterprise could be shifted to the midlands. I had heard of it before.

Mr. Seán Daly

We have been in discussions in those areas. That is why I speak about the western midlands. Our next stage is to work with our planners and pre-planning meetings. Evaluation of a number of different areas will show those areas what work we have been through. We want to have the least possible number of objections to the establishment of the business.

An investment of €85 million and 150 jobs would be very important, particularly on the western seaboard. It is the equivalent of a big factory. I offer best wishes for the endeavour. I thank the delegates for taking time off from a busy schedule of meeting investors and for a most interesting presentation. We are all fully cognisant of this aspect. Less than 12 months' ago we took it upon ourselves to look at the potential. We visited Güssing. Sometimes we are maligned for taking a trip but it was only a very short trip which stimulated our interest and resulted in the delegation being here today. I thank in particular our Swedish visitors and I apologise for making such a hames of announcing their names. They are all very welcome and I am sure they will enjoy the west of Ireland not just for its potential but for its friendliness. I assure them they will be well-received. They are a bit gloating in County Mayo at the moment because they won a big title last Sunday but the Sawdoctors might straighten them out on the N17 eventually.

Mr. Seán Daly

I invite the committee members to visit any of the facilities as they would be more than welcome.

We may well do so and we will be in contact on that. Sometimes a presentation on the ground is very important and we may well avail of that invitation.

Mr. Rolf Lindgren

You are more than welcome. Seeing is believing.

Sometimes we are like doubting Thomas. I thank the delegation for their attendance.

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