Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment debate -
Tuesday, 20 Jun 2023

Ireland's Trade Relationship with Canada: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach

I remind members who are participating in the meeting remotely that they must do so from within the confines of the Leinster House complex. I have received apologies from Senator Gavan. Other members will be joining us online presently.

Today's meeting is to discuss Ireland's trade relationship with Canada. The two countries share many common ties and enjoy a positive relationship. The trade relationship between Ireland and Canada has brought huge benefits to both countries. There are some 75 Canadian companies with a presence in Ireland, employing more than 15,000 people in total. More than 400 Irish companies have a presence in Canada, where they employ approximately 6,000 people. Continuing to strengthen the ties between our nations is a matter of great importance.

I am pleased to have the opportunity today to consider these matters further with representatives from the Ireland Canada Business Association, ICBA, the Ireland Canada Business Council, ICBC, and the Ireland-Canada Chamber of Commerce, Montreal. From the ICBA, I welcome Mr. Chris Collenette, who is joining us online, immediate past chair of the ICBA, vice president of corporate development at Think Research and consultant with Philip Lee LLP; Dr. Deirdre Giblin, ICBA chair and director of development and external engagement at the National College of Ireland; Ms Kate Hickey, ICBA executive director; and Ms Sara Murphy, executive director of the Ireland-Canada Chamber of Commerce, Toronto, who joins us online. From the ICBC, I welcome Ms Jacqueline Gilna, chair and CEO of We are Global Irish Inc; and Mr. Jonathan O'Hara, co-chair and partner in international trade law at McMillan LLP, Canada. From the Ireland-Canada Chamber of Commerce, Montreal, I welcome Mr. Vivian Doyle-Kelly, director and past president of the chamber.

Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. However, if they give evidence remotely from a place outside the parliamentary precincts, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses who are physically present. Persons giving evidence from another jurisdiction should be mindful of their domestic law and how it may apply to the evidence they give. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that may be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity.

Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

The opening statements have been circulated to all members, and they should have had a chance to read those. To commence our consideration of this matter, I invite Mr. Collenette and Dr. Giblin to make opening remarks on behalf of the Ireland Canada Business Association.

Dr. Deirdre Giblin

I thank the members for the opportunity to speak to the Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment on Ireland’s trade relationship with Canada. I am the ICBA chair and non-executive director. I am also director of development and external engagement with the National College of Ireland, NCI, in Dublin’s north-east inner city. On behalf of NCI, I manage external relationships with stakeholders and represent NCI on a number of forums, including the Dublin Regional Skills Forum. I am the representative for the Minister of Education and a number of patrons on several primary and second level school governing bodies. I am joined remotely by the former ICBA chair, Mr. Chris Collenette. Mr. Collenette is Canadian and has lived in Dublin since 2007, and became an Irish citizen in December 2022. He works as vice-president of corporate development for leading Canadian digital health company, Think Research, and as a consultant to Irish law firm, Philip Lee. Mr. Collenette and I are volunteer directors of the association. We are also accompanied by the ICBA’s executive director, Ms Kate Hickey.

The ICBA is an Irish, non-profit corporation founded in 1978. The ICBA is the representative body of roughly 100 members who do business between the two countries. The core of this is Canadian companies with operations here. The organisation has doubled in size over the past eight years, due in part to Brexit, and to the provisional application of the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement, CETA. The first Canadian company in Ireland was Canada Life in 1903. With more than one century of Canadian investment in Ireland since then, other notable Canadian companies here include Couche Tard - Circle K, Great-West Life, the owner of Canada Life and Irish Life, Irving Oil, Air Canada, Shopify, Celestica, Brookfield Asset Management and Greenfield Global. In addition, most of Canada’s major banks have operations here, including TD Bank, Bank of Montreal, Scotia Bank, and the National Bank of Canada. Since Brexit, Ireland has increasingly become the gateway to the EU for Canadian companies with dozens of Canadian companies, small and large, choosing it as a location for expansion into the European market. An ICBA member sentiment survey has revealed that strong cultural affiliations, availability of English-speaking talent, and connectivity between the two countries are the key factors attracting Canadian investment to Ireland.

The positivity and confidence in the Ireland-Canada relationship was seen in a recent mission organised by the ICBA to Toronto and Vancouver. On 16 May in Toronto a delegation of 12 members participated in an Ireland Canada business summit with the Toronto chamber, Industrial Development Authority, IDA, and Enterprise Ireland. Delegation meetings with Premier Doug Ford and deputy Mayor Jennifer McKelvie allowed the ICBA to discuss the strength of the Ireland-Canada relationship and the work of the Honourable James Maloney on Irish Heritage Month. In Vancouver the ICBA delegation had a briefing with the Ireland-Vancouver chamber and witnessed the passion and commitment of the chamber members to the Ireland-Canada relationship. The group was honoured to be hosted by the Mayor of Burnaby, Mike Hurley, and to meet with Ministers Brenda Bailey and Jagrup Brar, who both embraced the business economic and cultural alliances between Ireland and Canada. I will now hand over to Mr. Collenette who will speak on inward investment.

Mr. Chris Collenette

I wish everybody a good afternoon from Ottawa. I hope everybody can hear me. For more than 30 years, the IDA has worked to create the Ireland Inc. brand with enormous success. It opened an office in Toronto in 2018, and since then we have seen a steady stream of inward investment from Canada. This investment continues to grow in size and significance making Canadian foreign direct investment a major economic driver in Ireland. Simply put, the numbers depict the strength of the Ireland-Canada relationship. Canadian direct investment in Ireland now stands at more than €7 billion. There are upwards of 75 Canadian companies operational in Ireland, which directly employ approximately 15,000 people. It is estimated that of those 15,000 employees, 7,000 come from what are termed IDA companies. This means that the IDA has worked diligently to attract these companies to Ireland. As many as eight jobs are created in the wider economy for every ten created by IDA client companies. Therefore, those 7,000 jobs potentially support another 5,600 jobs. This brings the total to more 20,000 jobs in Ireland resulting from Canadian direct inward investment. Especially important and noteworthy for many of the members of this committee is that Canadian investment not only benefits Dublin. Regional investment by these companies is significant, and includes SOTI and Celestica in County Galway, Greenfield Global in County Laois, Optel Group in County Limerick, Vermilion in County Mayo, Sun Life in County Waterford, and eSentire, Open Text and Irving Oil in County Cork. It is unlikely there is any area of Ireland that does not benefit from the Ireland-Canada relationship, including those areas represented by many members of this committee.

With regard to imports and exports, trade is increasing in both directions. Canada-Ireland merchandise trade has averaged €2.7 billion annually since CETA provisionally came into effect. This is up 59.2% compared to 2016. That has resulted in exports from Canada to Ireland growing from €390 million in 2017 to €522 million in 2021. However, and very important, the big story is the growth of exports from Ireland to Canada during the same period. Since 2016, exports to Canada have grown by more than €600 million per year. For example, in 2021, total exports from Ireland to Canada were €2.1 billion, resulting in a trade surplus of €1.7 billion. Chemicals, pharmaceutical and medical products, electronic components, machinery and beverages dominate Irish exports to Canada. In 2019, Canada was ranked fourth largest global market for Enterprise Ireland's ICT and international services clients. It is now ranked sixth for the largest non-food segment. According to Enterprise Ireland, more than 600 Irish companies are exporting to Canada, which in turn supports 25,000 jobs here. Irish companies in Canada employ 6,000 people across the country in sectors such as fintech, life sciences, software, digital media and animation, education, food and construction. Irish companies with significant operations in Canada include Fenergo, CRH, Glanbia, Kerry Group, Kingspan and Morgan McKinley. The members are aware that Ireland has always relied on exporting its goods and services in order to survive and be successful. Irish exports to Canada tell us that this particular relationship is helping Ireland thrive right now. I will now hand back to Dr. Giblin to conclude.

Dr. Deirdre Giblin

Ireland and Canada enjoy one of the closest relationships of any two countries in the world. More than 14% of the Canadian population - some 5.6 million - claims Irish ancestry. During the Famine Quebec families adopted hundreds of Irish orphans. In many cases, the families made sure the orphans kept their Irish last names. Today there are native French speaking Quebecers with Irish last names. During the summer of 1847, 38,000 Irish immigrants arrived in Toronto, which at the time had a population of 20,000 people. I ask the members to think about that for one minute. When I have stood in Ireland Park in Toronto, I have certainly thought about that for more than one minute. It would be akin to 2.2 million people landing on the shores of Dublin over the next year. There are numerous historical examples of how Canada has supported Ireland, with none more vivid than the story of the Famine memorial represented by the Rowan Gillespie sculptures located on Custom House Quay in Dublin and in Ireland Park in Toronto. In more recent years, Canada’s late finance Minister, Jim Flaherty, and then Governor of the Bank of Canada, Mark Carney, represented Ireland at the IMF during the 2008 economic downturn. They succeeded in negotiating a better deal for Ireland than was originally on the table. At the same time, the Canadian Government also extended the working visa permits from one year to two years, to help young Irish people get the experience they required when work was not readily available in Ireland. These examples demonstrate the longevity and depth of this bilateral relationship and in some way explains the intrinsic ties in culture, business, and history that exist between our two countries. This relationship is now celebrated with March officially designated Irish Heritage Month to honour the contribution that Canadians of Irish descent have made to Canada. As we outlined today, the historically strong cultural links between Ireland and Canada are now matched by the strength of the economic relationship between these two countries. Let us do everything in our power to support this relationship and by doing so facilitate every aspect of this strong and expanding trade relationship between our two countries.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Dr. Giblin and Mr. Collenette. I now invite Ms Gilna and Mr. O'Hara to make opening remarks on behalf of the ICBC.

Ms Jacqueline Gilna

I thank the committee members for the invitation to address the Irish-Canadian trade relations. I appear here today in my role as founder and chair of the ICBC. My primary role is CEO at We Are Global Irish. I am joined by my colleague, Mr. O'Hara, co-chair, international trade group, at McMillan LLP Toronto, who will address the committee shortly on two key sectors.

The ICBC is a not-for-profit organisation and our purpose is to support Irish trade and investment strategies, identify challenges, and act as the national voice of Canada-Ireland business interests to both Governments. The board of directors comprises representatives from the Ireland-Canada Chambers in Ottawa, Toronto and Montreal, and the Ireland Alberta Trade Association. We work in a voluntary capacity in our respective organisations and with ICBC, we enjoy a very productive relationship with our diplomatic mission, state agencies such as Enterprise Ireland, IDA Ireland, Tourism Ireland and Invest Northern Ireland. We thank them all for their support. I will begin by outlining the historic connections between Ireland and Canada, I will address foreign direct investment, FDI, into Ireland, comment on trade officers, consular officers, state agencies and challenges and will conclude with some suggestions of matters that the committee might consider.

The Irish, and those who identify with Irish DNA, in Canada number about 10 million. That is twice the size of the population of Ireland. The ties that bind us stretch back centuries and are rooted deep in historical, cultural and diasporic connections. Irish immigrants played a significant role in shaping Canada's history. They are the foundation of its society and the basis for the development of bilateral trade and economic collaboration. The Irish represent the fourth-largest ethnic group in Canada. It is a vast country. Building on regional links, ICBC member organisations promote Ireland's interests through events and in supporting ministerial visits by members of the Government of Ireland. Through our Canadian networks, we open doors to businesses and industries that are considering establishing in Ireland. We have connections in multiple sectors and leverage our networks to the benefit of the Ireland-Canada commercial engagement.

Trade relations are very much enhanced by Canada's immigration policy and deepened by Enterprise Ireland activities. Our Toronto and Montreal offices cover the entirety of Canada, supported, when necessary, by local experts who work with Enterprise Ireland's core teams to deliver targeted supports to market opportunities for their clients. Sectors of focus include fintech, financial services, cybersecurity and others that mentioned in my briefing document. I am told that Irish companies now employ approximately 9,000 people across Canada.

I will burn briefly to FDI and why Canadian companies consider Ireland. Ireland is the only English-speaking euro zone country. In addition, it is politically and economically stable. We have a skilled workforce, a comprehensive FDI policy and a competitive tax environment. Along with the increasing number of direct flights from different regions in Canada to Ireland, this makes Ireland very attractive to Canadian companies. Some of the key challenges relate to infrastructure, planning policies, energy, the cost of doing business in Ireland and competition from other countries. There are also global concerns regarding things that have an impact on investment conditions such as, for example, inflation and recession. If we look at the opportunities that exist in Canada according to IDA Ireland, emerging sectors and technologies are driving growth such as generative AI, digital connected health, quantum computing and the others referred to in my written submission. Also, a continued period of low unemployment with high demand for skills in Canada is very much an opportunity to promote Ireland as an alternative talent source.

What can be done to drive further on investment and to improve relations? Increasingly, Ireland's visibility and presence is an example. In the first six months of 2023, three senior members of the Government, namely, the Ministers for Finance, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science and Health, Deputies Michael McGrath, Harris and Donnelly, visited Canada. The visits were invaluable opportunities to get in front of decision-makers and source new prospects in the market. Therefore, finding and building these partnerships and stakeholder networks can help maximise Ireland's visibility.

If we look at the visa and immigration alignment, there are some key elements. Here in Ireland, we need to look at a way to fast track those who hold permanent resident cards in Canada to make travel to Ireland easier for executives who are looking to open offices in Ireland. I give the example of those of Indian nationality who have difficulty getting into Ireland because of the duration of the visa requirement to enter the country.

I will now move to the national planning framework, NPF, and the National Development Plan 2021-2030, which combine to form Project Ireland 2040. Project Ireland 2040, with its ten-year, €116 billion capital investment plan, new NPF to enhance regional connectivity and competitiveness and improve environmental sustainability, contains, according to the Government, the elements needed to continue to attract net new trade. However, we ask a pressing question as to whether this timeline will hamper future FDI into the country.

I invite Mr. O'Hara to address the committee.

Mr. Jonathan O'Hara

I thank the Chair, Deputies and Senators. As a son of Ireland, albeit three generations removed, it really is an honour to be here today. I hope to assist the committee by offering my perspective as a lawyer in Canada who helps business do business in and with Canada, with some guidance. I will cover two different points. First, I want to highlight some of the strengths of the existing relationships to understand where some of the big drivers are, and then I will quickly offer three possible suggestions as to ways to build on and further leverage those strengths.

The two strengths I want to talk about our the life-sciences sector and the professional services sector. Last year, Ireland exported 1.6 billion pharmaceuticals goods to Canada. That 1.6 billion is of a total 2.7 billion, therefore half of Irish exports to Canada were pharmaceuticals. If one looks back the past ten years, that trend has been similarly strong. It has consistently been the case that one third to one half of Irish exports to Canada are pharmaceuticals.

The second topic is services that are going to Canada and I want to particularly focus on management services. This is things like business consulting, administrative services, and business services. In 2016, before the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement, CETA, Irish exports of those kind of services to Canada were $43 million. In 2021, the last year for which we have available data, that rose to $485 million. That is a tremendous gain. If we take the gain over those five years, that is €1.8 billion added to the Irish economy by virtue of those management services. Putting Ireland's provision of management services in context, Ireland is Canada's third largest provider of management services. It is behind only the United States and the UK. Of Canada's total imports of management services, there are €13.5 billion so there is clearly a lot of room for Ireland to grow its position from the third place onwards and upwards to contribute further to the Irish economy.

In terms of my three suggestions to better leverage those Irish strengths, the first is to improve regulatory co-operation between Canada and Ireland. The second is to provide additional support for Irish businesses in the life-sciences sector which are participating in public procurements in Canada and I will dig into why that is important a tiny bit further given time constraints. Then the third suggestion is regarding these management services to analyse further to see where the opportunities there are.

First, with respect to regulatory co-operation, CETA, especially chapter 21, covers regulatory co-operation as it tended to further the regulatory co-operation. Since CETA has been provisional enforced, there has been very limited growth there and so there is an opportunity there for the Government of Ireland to push that further, particularly with respect to pharmaceutical regulatory co-operation. We have already talked about how big the pharmaceuticals are. They can only grow further and benefit further from increased regulatory co-operation.

With respect to my second suggestion, that is, the public procurement aspects, CETA opened up the Canadian provincial procurements for the first time. This was particularly helpful to Ireland because the life-sciences sector, which are the entities that are buying those pharmaceuticals, are primarily provisional governments. The EU, as the first entity, gets preferential access to that and preferential access to all those public procurements via hospitals and so forth. As a result, there is a legal right of access. There are practical challenges, however. Those public procurements are all conducted in an open, transparent, and fair manner and are publicly advertised, but by no means are they all advertised in the same place. They are advertised in many different places; it is highly decentralised. There is an opportunity for the Government to assist with that. These hospitals, provincial entities are new to the level of rigour that is going to be imposed on their procurements to ensure they are fair, open, and transparent. They are going to make mistakes. Some of those mistakes may well be to the detriment of Irish companies and may be to the advantage of some of the incumbents. Therefore, there is an opportunity for the Irish Government to help ensure the commitments under CETA are fully adhered to to the benefit of Irish companies.

My third suggestion is with respect to the management services. There would be a benefit to gathering more data to understand exactly where the drivers are there so that we can continue to grow what was $485 million in 2021, and continue to grow it onwards at the pace it has been growing.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. O'Hara and Ms Gillna and invite Ms Doyle-Kelly to make her opening remarks on behalf of the Ireland-Canada Chambers of Commerce.

Mr. Vivian Doyle-Kelly

On behalf of the Ireland-Canada Chamber of Commerce in Montreal, I thank the committee for the invitation to speak here today. It is an honour for our organisation to be afforded this opportunity to address this important committee.

We were formed in 1991 and we are dedicated to fostering close commercial relations between Quebec, the largest of Canada’s ten provinces, and the island of Ireland. We offer support and networking opportunities for Irish companies through seminars, business lunches, social events and expert lectures. We collaborate with groups such as Enterprise Ireland and Invest Northern Ireland - we are conscious of a one-island economy - to make the most of business opportunities that exist. We maintain close links with the Industrial Development Authority, IDA, Tourism Ireland, the Ireland Canada Business Association, which is our sister organisation in Dublin, and other Ireland-Canada chambers across Canada.

As it happens, there has never been a better time for Irish and Quebec businesses to work together. The United Kingdom’s exit from the European Union is, we believe, disastrous for Great Britain and not great for anybody. However, it represents an opportunity for Ireland as it relates to Quebec and the rest of Canada. Put simply, we think Ireland is the perfect location for Quebec businesses to set up their European headquarters.

For us in Quebec and for you in Ireland, the advantages of collaboration on trade are clear. The two economies have many similarities; both are known for their warm welcome and strong entrepreneurial spirit. Quebec’s affluent, high-tech industrial society has a can-do attitude very similar to Ireland. We are both also strong in a number of key industries, including digital technologies, financial services, fintech, aviation, construction, engineering, education, life sciences and digital health – the list goes on.

Canada’s leaders have worked hard to make the country a favourable environment, resulting in the development of the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement, CETA, between Canada and Europe, which is one of the most comprehensive tariff reduction packages ever achieved in an EU free trade agreement. Since its provisional application in 2017, Irish companies working with the Canadian market have enjoyed the elimination of 98.6% of all Canadian tariff lines, as well as opening, as was referenced, the Canadian services market to Irish firms.

In recent years, dozens of Irish companies have been operating successfully in the Quebec market, creating significant employment in the process. Some Irish enterprises that are successfully doing business in the Quebec market include Multihog, SportLoMo, Beacon Health, Kingspan, Keenan, Samco, Prodig, Combilift, Aerogen and Vybe. Keywords Studios and Aer Rianta International are Ireland’s largest employers in Montreal. We believe there is room for much more. Likewise, Quebec enterprises have found a natural home in Ireland with the range of free supports and services for all Canadian companies to help them set up offices in Ireland.

Montreal has a foot in both camps. On one hand, the city is the fifth most rapidly growing metropolitan area in all of North America. We are less than an hour’s drive from the US border. We are six hours' drive from midtown Manhattan and five hours from downtown Boston. On the other hand, it is a truly bilingual marketplace, with French and English being spoken fluently by the majority of people in Montreal, making it an attractive location for European and Francophone countries around the world that appreciate the diverse and outward-looking business mentality found in Quebec. That approach has led to more than 70 international agencies setting up headquarters in Montreal, including civil aviation bodies like the International Civil Aviation Organisation, ICAO, International Air Transport Association, IATA, and the International Business Aviation Council. In addition, the World Anti-Doping Agency and no fewer than five United Nations agencies have headquarters in Montreal.

Quebec is a world leader in AI, optics-photonics research and visual effects, VFX, development, which is why Google, Microsoft and Meta have chosen Montreal for their research and development centres. Quebec is also a hub for metal transportation, quantum science, mining and the aerospace industry. Many large players in the aerospace industry are permanently ensconced in Quebec, including Bombardier, Pratt & Whitney, Rolls-Royce, Bell Helicopter, Lockheed Martin, Thales and STELIA Aerospace, which is the manufacturing subsidiary of Airbus. This generates a long list of suppliers and subcontractors in this economic ecosystem.

With the lowest energy costs in all of North America, Quebec draws many large-power customers, including data centres and other tech-based enterprises. In all, our industries enjoy about a 25% operating cost advantage over others in Canada and North America. Furthermore, Montreal’s highly educated population of 4.3 million provides a ready professional bank of talent for incoming enterprises - managerial, professional and science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM.

With this in mind, it is our view that it is time for the Irish Government to establish a full-time professional consulate general in Montreal for the province of Quebec. While currently Quebec represents almost a quarter of Canada’s population and more than 20% of the Canadian economy, there is no diplomatic or trade representation. If Quebec was an independent nation, it would have the 28th largest economy in the world. As a result, other European nations have been quick to set up permanent consulates and trade missions in Montreal. Putting it bluntly, we feel Ireland is missing out.

The establishment of an Enterprise Ireland office in Montreal in the spring of 2021 was a positive development. There was a very successful trade mission organised later that year that saw the Minister of State with responsibility for trade promotion, digital and company regulation come to the city. Enterprise Ireland provides a targeted, one-on-one approach for Irish businesses looking to thrive in Quebec. This strategy would benefit exponentially if the Government of Ireland were to provide authorised local representation that would be able to interface directly with the provincial government and other Quebec agencies on an equal and official footing. In effect, this would set Enterprise Ireland up for success, given the strong alignment between Enterprise Ireland's targets and Quebec's established industries.

From a cultural and consular point of view, the appointment would also make clear sense. Since the early 19th century, Quebec has been the first point of entry in North America for hundreds of thousands of Irish, with almost half of all Quebeckers, both Anglophone and Francophone, able to claim Irish ancestry. St. Patrick’s Society of Montreal was founded in 1834 and St. Patrick’s Basilica was consecrated in 1847, indicating there was already an established Irish population that was sufficiently wealthy to build its own cathedral. To this day, the flag of Montreal still proudly sports a shamrock. There is an active and growing Irish diaspora living in the province, helping to support more than a dozen Irish societies, as well as the vibrant school of Irish studies at Concordia University.

It is our understanding that several new Irish diplomatic missions will be launched in the near future and we believe that Montreal, Quebec needs to be one of them. This would build on the efforts of the highly respected and long-serving honorary consul, Dr. Michael Kenneally, who established the school of Irish studies in Concordia University, which now has more than 1,000 students taking Irish courses. Dr. Kenneally recently retired. For Ireland to have trade and diplomatic missions in Canada but not Quebec would be like setting up in the United States but ignoring New York and large economic hubs. In addition, we believe it would be gratefully received by hundreds of enterprises of all sizes on both sides of the Atlantic.

On behalf of the chamber and Irish-Quebec businesses, I thank members for their attention and kind invitation to speak. I wish them every success in the continuation of this committee. If the opportunity arises, we would love members of the committee to visit us in Montreal.

An Cathaoirleach

I will now invite members to speak. Will they please indicate? I ask those who are participating remotely to please use the raise hand function and take it down when they are finished speaking. We have a roster in place. First is Deputy Louise O’Reilly from Sinn Féin, who has 14 minutes.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I thank our witnesses for the information they gave us and I thank them in advance for answering all of our questions, although none of mine are tough. This is a good opportunity for us to have a good engagement and a chance for not an informal chat, but to actually probe some issues.

I was glad to hear Dr. Giblin mention Mike Hurley, the mayor of Burnaby, who I have met. I was in Canada in April. The large diaspora was mentioned. I straight up met not all of them but definitely a large chunk of them. There are many more people with Irish heritage than I would have even imagined, which was absolutely fantastic to see. There was much chat about the opportunities that exist. There were people saying things like, for example, “Let me tell you about the good work that is being done, but park that for the moment, because guess what we could do”, which is always a good sign.

I refer to the trade surplus between Ireland and Canada. It was €1.7 billion in 2021, which is a healthy figure. From my perspective, I have an interest in strengthening the Irish-owned export sector, particularly in the context of the existing large cohort of non-exporting SMEs. Irish companies tend to export at an earlier stage in their life cycle than other comparable European countries. Only 6% of Irish SMEs currently export. Most of them, while doing what they do, are exporting to Britain. Is there scope for further increases in Irish exports to Canada, especially among Enterprise Ireland, EI, SMEs? What would be the advice from a Canadian perspective on how we can turn non-exporting Irish SMEs, which make up the vast bulk of SMEs, into exporters?

Dr. Deirdre Giblin

I will take the question on surplus and I will refer to my colleagues.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Yes, that is what I mean. We have time to do that.

Dr. Deirdre Giblin

I will go back to the mayor of Burnaby, Mike Hurley, whom the Deputy mentioned. He is from Magherafelt and was 30 years a firefighter, as I am sure he told the Deputy. He had a vision for his city of Burnaby, just outside Vancouver, which was to turn it into the largest provider outside of Hollywood of services around sound stages, and he has achieved this. I could quote the wrong number but it is in excess of 200 sound stages. Regions here, such as Wexford and Waterford, are looking at something like that. For the upcoming Canada Day, we have set up meetings with the mayor, Mike Hurley, and Members of the Oireachtas regarding that. It is things like that, the people we meet, the little stories and the connections we make that are hugely important.

I will bounce to Mr. Collenette in relation to the SME piece. Our general view would be that there is huge scope. Of course we have always looked to our closest neighbour but the depth of the relationship with Canada, especially the strength of the Enterprise Ireland relationship, means there will be savings and businesses should go there. I will bounce to Mr. Collenette on that and then to our Canadian and Irish-Canadian colleagues.

Mr. Chris Collenette

If I am correct, the question was whether there is more scope for Irish SMEs to export to Canada. The answer is "Absolutely". Canada has a growing population. It is the only G7 country that has free trade agreements with every other G7 country. It has a long-standing free trade agreement with the US. This means that, through a process of substantial transformation, Irish SMEs could export a product to Canada, add value to it and then have direct access to the US market, which is ten times the size of the Canadian market. The world is Ireland's oyster in the sense of the continued growth of SMEs in Canada. The work Enterprise Ireland currently does to support them is the real benefit. The Government should continue supporting and funding this so that they are able to continue their work. The work of volunteer organisations, such as ours, the different embassies, the IDA, EI in Canada and the Canadian embassy in Ireland to establish connections throughout the country is what would help EI support those SMEs. The answer is "Yes".

Dr. Deirdre Giblin

I can think of one example of those companies. I do not have permission to name it as their story has only come into my head now. We met them in Toronto. It is an Irish company based in Dogpatch Labs in the International Financial Services Centre, IFSC. It provides an engagement online platform on equality and diversity in organisations, which is obviously a very hot topic. It is a really good example. It has a very strong Irish angel investor and a very strong Canadian angel investor. It also has supports from EI for penetration into the Canadian market. It employs graduates from both countries. It is a really good example of a small female-founded business that I believe is going to take off with the support of both countries.

Ms Jacqueline Gilna

From the Irish perspective, not from the Canadian-Irish perspective, it is worth considering that our State agency, Enterprise Ireland, should establish programmes that speak to the SMEs. From my experience, many Irish companies looking to bounce abroad tend to think of Silicon Valley and they go in asking for $2 million or $3 million. That just does not fly; they laugh. They would perhaps not be interested in your organisation. It is about educating our SME sector here on the ground level as to what the expectation is, not just in Canada but in the North American market, taking two different cultures, that is, the Canadian culture of doing business and the US. Coming into Canada gives businesses the platform to go into the United States. There should be programmes for SMEs by our State agencies and they should get them early and nurture them along the road. Right now, unless you have a multiplier and you get to €100 million, you do not qualify. I recall being on a committee with Enterprise Ireland and I asked the ladies in the group how many of them were on €10,000 per month in recurring revenue and nobody put their hand up, yet we were speaking to them about €100 million to do an exit. I suggest State agencies focus on the smaller groups. Let us take them, nurture them, educate them and get them ready.

Mr. Jonathan O'Hara

On Deputy O'Reilly's question regarding helping SMEs export to Canada, this is something that is near and dear to my heart because I help companies do business with Canada daily. Many SMEs think it is very daunting to export. At least to Canada, in the majority of sectors, it is really not that hard. If you find someone who knows how to do it, you can facilitate it relatively easily. It gets more complicated if you are talking about defence products, foods or pharmaceuticals, but for the vast majority of sectors, it is not that hard. It should not be that daunting. There is an opportunity to get that word out, particularly given the trade agreements between the EU and Canada. It is not that hard.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

That is actually very good advice, that it is not as hard as you might think it would be.

Mr. Vivian Doyle-Kelly

I will add a couple of things. Mr. Collenette mentioned the Canada-US-Mexico trade agreement. Canada is also party to the trans-Pacific trade agreement. Anyone setting up a business in Canada has access to a market consisting of 1.5 billion people. I can speak for Quebec and Montreal. There are companies looking perpetually to bring in companies to set up businesses in Montreal and provincially. We are close to those companies. We work with them regularly. We know what their needs are and who they want to meet. People do business with people. As long as we can get people together, the opportunity exists for business. Our local market, greater Montreal, has 4.3 million people, which is not that short of the size of the population of Ireland. Quebec has 8.5 million to 9 million people. It is probably the best kept secret in Ireland. Language wise, Quebec is officially a French-speaking province, but from a business perspective, it is open. People are mandated to bring businesses into Montreal and Quebec. Those connections can be easily made.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

In his submission, Mr. Doyle-Kelly mentioned that Google, Microsoft and Meta have all chosen Montreal for their research and development centres. This is obviously to be commended. I want to ask specifically about investment in research, development and innovation. The best way to generate sustainable long-term productivity is to make that investment in research, development and innovation. Canada scored very well in the recent global innovation index score card for 2022, coming 15th out of 132.

Ireland has been drifting a little, but is still coming in at 23 on the most recent score card. This is a theme I raise at almost every meeting. Will the witnesses talk us through the supports in place for businesses in Canada for research, development and innovation and what we could do, as we want to improve our score? These companies are choosing, not only Montreal but Canada in general, as their base. What is Canada doing that we might be able to learn from and replicate?

Mr. Vivian Doyle-Kelly

Off the top of my head, I can give some answers and I would be happy to provide a more detailed answer subsequently. Our research and development tax credit rate is approximately 25% and there is substantial support for research and development in the province of Quebec. However, I will write something for the committee.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I thank Mr. Doyle-Kelly. Does either of the other guests want to say anything about research, development and innovation?

Dr. Deirdre Giblin

It is the close relationship with the higher education industry. In Ireland we are doing a good job. We could do a lot better. As an educator, I am heartened by the fact we have a Department dedicated to further and higher education, research, innovation and science. We look a lot to Canada. For many years, we looked to the Nordic countries for many things but we look to Canada more often. I met the Minister, Deputy Harris, in the US in the week of St. Patrick's Day. He had been in Canada that week and was impressed by some of the visits he made to universities and employers and the integration of research and innovation between them.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Is there scope for deepening the relationship between the Irish third level sector and the Canadian third level sector, perhaps on specific projects? It is all very well to sign a co-operation agreement for Canada to send some students here and Ireland to send some students there and for everyone to have a nice time. Is there scope for co-operation on specific projects?

Dr. Deirdre Giblin

There is huge scope, especially as Mr. Doyle-Kelly said, around the fact that many of the companies that have their Europe, Middle East and Africa, EMEA, headquarters here, have other headquarters in a variety of places, including the ones Mr. Doyle-Kelly talked about, in Montreal. When we were in Vancouver a few weeks ago, I spoke with the ministers responsible for labour, enterprise and education, who said that memorandums of understanding, MoUs, may not be worth the paper they are written on. What happens next that is most important. That is where the employer piece comes in. Higher education institutions can speak to other higher education institutions. We also need to talk about further education institutions talking to other further education institutions. The community college base, the further education piece, is a huge thing in Canada. We need to build the relationships further down the education hierarchy. Employers are key to that. Through a combination of the organisations present talking to the relevant people in Ireland and Canada, something substantial and tangible could happen, whether in artificial intelligence, AI, robotics or otherwise.

Ms Jacqueline Gilna

I certainly support what my colleagues said. It perhaps behoves us to take a deeper dive into the Government of Canada international and supported programmes and tax incentives for research and development. Once that is known and shared, we need to look at, not only the education group, but also SMEs and the Irish sector in general that is looking to come over. The tax incentives and co-operation are in place and, as we all know, there are numerous high-standing educational institutions that are deeply engaged with research and development. It is a much bigger answer than can be summed up in a few words, but it could certainly be a sub-section of building further on the relationship.

Deputy David Stanton

I welcome the witnesses. I am pleased they are here. We have been talking about this for quite a while, so it is great it has finally happened. Canada and Ireland can learn a lot from one another.

Today, Ireland ranked second in competitiveness. I think Denmark is ahead of us and we are number 2. I am interested in what Mr. O'Hara said about harmonisation of regulation. I think from his notes, it is an EU competence rather than a competence of Ireland per se. Is there anything we can do ourselves independent of the EU?

I will also comment on the history and heritage between Ireland and Canada that the witnesses all spoke about. Our ambassador to Canada, Eamonn McKee, has done a lot of work in that space, as the witnesses will probably be aware. He identified 50 Irish people who contributed massively to Canada over the centuries and decades. It is interesting to read the accounts of what they achieved in all spaces. I will declare an interest. I have a son who is living in Vancouver at the moment. He tells me that Vancouver GAA club is the fastest growing GAA club in the world which is interesting to hear. Many Irish people have moved to Vancouver and other parts of Canada. Some of the witnesses might like to comment on the attractiveness of Canada to young Irish people. They are going there now in their early 20s because they want to go, not because they have to go. They are involved in all kinds of businesses and enterprises and many of them come back. Is the opposite also happening to any great extent? Are Canadians coming to Ireland to work, learn, go to college and so forth or is there more we could and perhaps should do in that space? Getting back to what I said earlier, we can all learn from one another. When our young people come back from abroad, they bring invaluable experience with them. It cannot be calculated.

I will also comment on what the Canadian M.P., James Maloney, did in organising the march for Irish Heritage Month every year. March is now celebrated as Irish Heritage Month in Canada. It is hugely important and significant that that happened. Perhaps the witnesses would like to comment on the impact that had on business and what it means and does. The Canadian ambassador, Nancy Smyth, is also doing fantastic work. She is very approachable. She has visited many Canadian and Irish companies in Ireland that are working extremely hard.

Deputy O'Reilly asked many of the questions I was going to ask and I do not want to go back over them, but one issue stood out. Mr. Collenette said that it is estimated that of 15,000 employees, 7,000 are from IDA companies. I am wondering about the balance. If 7,000 are from IDA companies, where do the rest come from or who are they? That is also interesting.

As Deputy O'Reilly said, it not only matters that we are all doing well. The witnesses have come up with some interesting suggestions, especially what Mr. Doyle-Kelly said about the relationship with Quebec and Montreal. I was struck by that. It was interesting. I know the history, that many tens of thousand Irish people descended there during the Famine and they received a welcome and were looked after. That folk memory survives to this day. People in parts of Canada have Waterford and Wexford accents. They survive until now in different places. It is hugely important.

The procurement issue was also interesting. I did not know about it. We should take it on board and consider how we can delve into the maze, as he described it, of procurement. Perhaps we are missing a trick with respect to that. Will Mr. O'Hara describe what he means by Irish management services to let people who are listening know what they are?

That is what we can do from this end. Is there anything the Canadians should be doing from their end? If the Chair brings us to Canada at some stage, we might like to make suggestions when we get there. Will the witnesses let us know what we could suggest to the Canadians?

Mr. Jonathan O'Hara

There are at least three topics I can answer on. I will try to take them in sequence. The first was regulatory co-operation. I take the Deputy's point. He is right that much of that competence is at EU level as opposed to Irish Government level, but Ireland has a particular interest in getting more regulatory co-operation on life sciences and the pharmaceutical sector. I take the point about where the competence lies, but there might be an incentive behind Ireland pushing the EU a little further, especially in the direction of pharmaceuticals and life sciences.

There are many regulatory issues out there and insofar as we can push everything forward a little bit on the life sciences, that might be beneficial.

Second, the Deputy also referred to the procurement maze and that is probably a good way to describe it. There may be some options there where the Government, probably through a trade commissioner or some such role, could start to look at where all those opportunities are to help some of the companies understand the maze and the big picture as to where the places are that they might look for these opportunities. Going very far down the road, it might be some kind of register of opportunities which might be of interest to Irish life sciences companies. The company could come to the Government, and it would assemble that register once, as opposed to having 50 different companies doing it themselves. That might very much facilitate Irish companies, given the opportunities there for such companies.

The third point raised by the Deputy was on management services. This is indeed something of a vague description and I did have had to reacquaint myself with some of the details so I will try to give him a little more of that detail. Some of the ways to do that may be to describe what it is not. This is not financial services or information technology, IT, services and is more things like project management services, business consulting services and executive counselling. Those are the kind of management services that it seems that Ireland is particularly strong in and has very much been able to grow in the past five years since the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement, CETA, provision came into force. I hope that reply is helpful but, of course, if there are more questions, please just let me know.

Dr. Deirdre Giblin

I will just take the Deputy’s question about Ireland and Canada. Canada is much more attractive to the Irish of a certain age, with Ireland being attractive to Canada being made up of older people and students. We were definitely finding that when we were on our latest trade mission, in Vancouver in particular, When we walked into a meeting with the Irish chamber in Vancouver, we expected to see people of our age group but we saw people between the ages of 25 and 35. We were delighted because these people were there probably two, three or four years, are used to it now, and every one of them is climbing their careers. They very much want to reinvigorate a chamber that had probably just gone a bit dormant for a while. It was very exciting for us to see that the chamber represents the Irish who are out there now, not the Irish who went 20 or 25 years ago. There was nothing wrong with that cohort either but it was just great to see that.

On the Canadians coming to Ireland; there are many agreements between universities and colleges. That will definitely expand but we are still in a situation where the traffic is more or less going towards Canada, and Vancouver seems to be the place where the majority are going. Perhaps Ms Gilna or Mr. Doyle-Kelly may wish to add to that.

Ms Jacqueline Gilna

It is very important to look at the geo-disparities across Canada. Within the context of geo-disparities, there are also different cultural approaches to doing business. A prime example of that today is the Ireland-Canada Chamber of Commerce – Montreal’s representation here because it is a unique area and it very much needs its own Irish Government representation from State agencies, as we have said.

I would also like to put some focus on Alberta. Alberta has very specific, as many of the areas have, natural resources and opportunities. The Ireland-Alberta Trade Association has been very active in organising a number of trade missions over here recently and it is working very closely with the Alberta Government. Obviously, we are inviting all of the committee members to join us in Canada and to experience the Canadian opportunities first-hand but should that be a consideration we would ask, and focusing on the Deputy’s question, that the committee takes the time to visit each of the regions. That is very important because each region will have an opportunity for certain sectors. It should no longer be a case of just coming into Toronto and then heading to other places.

Let us not forget that Ottawa is the seat of the federal government and, since 2015, when I invited the Irish Government to come on a trade mission - we worked with the Ireland Canada Business Association, ICBA, on that mission - we have not had a trade mission to Ottawa. To develop those relationships further, we should consider that the federal government makes the decisions outside of the provinces, so it is a combination of the relationship. I encourage the committee strongly, in answering all of those questions, that we include the federal government in that process.

Dr. Deirdre Giblin

I will speak to Irish Heritage Month and perhaps Mr. Collenette might also comment on this. We are very lucky to have met with James Maloney several times. He is the member of parliament in Canada who brought this into being and we have seen that very many countries are following suit so it must have been a great idea. When we were in Canada, we noticed that there was Asian Heritage Month and different types of heritage were covered. We see this very much as a culmination of the work that has been done between the two governments, the chambers, and the trade associations.

This goes back to our earlier point around how the deep relationship historically, culturally and politically between the two countries very much leads to an economic relationship that is very robust but definitely, as we have said earlier, needs a little bit more work potentially around representation and trade from the point of view of Enterprise Ireland, EI, and IDA Ireland consuls in different parts of Canada. Ms Gilna’s point is very well made around the fact that every part of Canada is different. Her advice is very well given, which is that every region is so different so that in order to do a Canada-Ireland relationship service, and I know it is a big country, but if the committee is going to go there one must go to see it and make those relationships.

I will invite Mr. Collenette to speak to heritage month from a Canadian-Irish perspective.

Mr. Chris Collenette

Certainly, growing up in Canada, Irish culture was so prominent. It is to be found on road signs, in music, obviously pubs, in schools, in Irish dance, and it was just a logical development. When James Maloney proposed this idea to the Liberal Party Government and then to the other parties, it was unanimously accepted and he was pushing on a very open door. That just reflects the strength of the relationship between the countries.

To address the Deputy’s question regarding the other companies that are employing people here that are not IDA Ireland companies, it is just that the IDA sometimes just tracks certain companies in certain industries and there are Canadian companies in Ireland that almost predate the authority. For example, there is Great-West Lifeco. Some of those long-standing companies might not be included in those IDA Ireland numbers. One might get a better sense from them as opposed to what might be called IDA Ireland clients, which are companies which are on the authority’s books and which it is actively trying to assist.

Obviously, business just then happens. There are structures put in place around the world for funds, aircraft leasing and there are a number of special purpose entities, SPEs, set up here which are ultimately Canadian-owned. Those types of businesses would not necessarily be tracked by IDA Ireland but just happened organically because Ireland is such a fantastic place to do business. I hope that answers the question.

Deputy David Stanton

I wish to raise just one more topic. Recently, New York and Washington were inundated with smoke from fires in Canada, which was terrible to see. The witnesses mentioned that Canada is very competitive from the point of view of energy production and we know that is the case with oil, gas, and so on. Climate change is obviously a big topic with us here so can they comment on the impact of climate change in Canada? Is it impacting business and industry? Is it being commented on and is it high in the discussion? Where do they, therefore, see all of this going in Canada especially when we look at what happened in the past year as well over in British Columbia, where serious fires took place? It is terrible to see such a beautiful part of the world being ravaged by fires and again, on this occasion, up around north of New York in that area.

Dr. Deirdre Giblin

Maybe I will start off the replies and we will bounce it around then. The previous Minister of Environment and Climate Change in Canada, Catherine McKenna, who is a great friend to Ireland, has done significant work on climate change. There have been many conversations between our two governments with Catherine McKenna at the time when she was Minister as part of that. Perhaps I will bounce over now to our Canadian-based colleagues to speak on the climate change discussion in Canada.

Mr. Vivian Doyle-Kelly

I would really only make one general comment. The fires, however devastating and terrible, are actually a natural phenomenon. It is unfortunate when the winds blow and it has an effect on large population areas.

The head of Export Development Canada is a chartered accountant from Belfast who worked with Short Brothers, came to Canada, became a senior financial person in Bombardier and moved on to become head of Export Development Canada. Export Development Canada is repeating the message everywhere that the success of companies will be rooted in ESGs. That message is very strong, according to what we have been told.

Senator Garret Ahearn

I thank the witnesses for their contributions. It has been an informal kind of setting, which has been nice. I should declare something. Deputy Stanton named Canadian companies in Ireland and named one my wife works for, Brookfield asset management, a renewable energy company in Cork that was recently sold. She has been with them for five years or more and loves it, and the relationship between the Ireland and Canadian bases has been very successful. I had my honeymoon in Canada as well and really enjoyed it, and we have family in Alberta. When we talk about different regions and areas having different challenges and ways we can work with them, it is important we look at it in the sense it is not just one country but also different regions in many ways.

My first question relates to Brexit. The UK having left the European Union has given us a great opportunity to attract investment to Ireland. One of the obvious opportunities relates to North America, that is, the US and Canada. Canada is bilingual, of course, and has a close relationship with France. How can we compete with France in attracting investment to Ireland? Ours is an English-speaking country and that is an advantage, whereas France is a country on the mainland of Europe. What are our advantages in bringing companies from Canada to Ireland post Brexit?

Mr. Vivian Doyle-Kelly

There is a long-standing historical relationship and ease of doing business between Quebec and France. As for what would give Ireland a competitive advantage - this is more anecdotal than anything else, given I cannot design something for the Senator - the lifestyle Ireland offers is attractive. There is more space for people to be in Ireland. I would hesitate before comparing Ireland with France in a number of respects, but Ireland has a very attractive education system. Going back to a previous question, anecdotally again, a lot of Canadian students are here studying medicine. I really cannot offer an example of a competitive advantage.

Dr. Deirdre Giblin

To be honest, we would not have an answer to the question on the comparison between France and Ireland and that is something we would have to think about further. I work at the National College of Ireland at the IFSC, and I look in particular at the financial services industry and what has been happening to that post Brexit. On our visits to Toronto, we very much see synergies between the IFSC in Toronto and that in Dublin, and there is collaboration between both as centres for financial services excellence. Mr. Collenette might wish to comment on the French aspect.

Mr. Chris Collenette

Yes, some of my work involves advising international companies, that is, not just Canadian ones, that are setting up in Ireland over other jurisdictions. As the Senator mentioned, Canada is bilingual, so there will be a workforce that is not just French speaking and there will be access to both English speakers and French speakers, which is not the case in Ireland.

As for what Ireland could do to develop an advantage over France, it is already doing it. It is a more competitive and easier place to set up a company. There are larger groups of talent here, especially in the tech sector, than there are in many areas of France. Employment law, while more tilted towards the employee than is the case in North America, is still more tilted towards the employer than is the case in the rest of Europe. Of course, there are tax advantages to setting up here as well. I think that work has been done. Moreover, with specific regard to the Quebec population, as we have noted, more than 40% of Quebecers have Irish heritage, so there is an affinity to Ireland just as there is to France.

Senator Garret Ahearn

Mr. Doyle-Kelly requested that we open a permanent consulate in Montreal, as we have done in other cities throughout the world. He suggested we are missing out on it. What countries of a similar size to Ireland have done this in Montreal, and what basic advantage does that give to businesses in Montreal and Quebec in the context of facilitating dealing with both governments? I refer not only to having an embassy but an embassy and a consulate for businesses. Especially for small businesses, if we are trying to attract them to set up in Ireland, what could it do for them by having a permanent consulate there?

Mr. Vivian Doyle-Kelly

The Enterprise Ireland model, as I understand it, works with client companies and helps those client companies on a one-on-one basis. Nobody is speaking for Ireland to the government of Quebec on any kind of an official basis. While there is H.E. Dr. McKee in Ottawa, we feel there should be somebody on the ground who would deal eye to eye and directly with the Quebec government on an official basis, and Quebec government agencies given we have agencies similar to EI and IDA Ireland. As a chamber, we work closely with both Montréal International, which was set up to attract investment and create jobs in Montreal, and Investissement Québec, which has similar objectives. Our position is simply that there is a large blind spot, with phenomenal opportunity for market reach, in the context of, as Mr. Collenette mentioned, the affinity between the countries. The Irish are recognised as being one of the founding nations in Quebec and Montreal, so there are advantages from a day-to-day perspective. Anything the Irish State agencies do in Quebec is automatically leveraged into a full-time position as a body that has authority to speak for the Government.

Senator Garret Ahearn

Have any other countries, such as New Zealand, done this?

Mr. Vivian Doyle-Kelly

I am not aware of New Zealand having done it. While I do not do this for a living, I will be more than happy to get the answers for the committee. Ours is a volunteer organisation.

Senator Garret Ahearn

I thank Mr. Doyle-Kelly.

Ms Jacqueline Gilna

I might add to that. The Senator mentioned New Zealand, but if we look at the Irish population base in Quebec and Montreal specifically from a business perspective, the relationship with New Zealand, for example, and other countries that do not have that historic connection is significantly different. Looking at Canadian federalism, we cannot emphasise enough how important it is to have Irish State agencies and a trade commissioner supporting business and the opportunities from Quebec. It is a unique position within Canadian federalism.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

When I was in Canada recently, Peter Julian MP explained to me the way in which the federal and central government works.

It is complicated but it underlines the need for a presence in whatever form in each of the areas, though they are separate or separate but together, as they say.

I return to climate change, which was raised by Deputy Stanton. It is a discussion we need to have. On the one hand, we need to be careful about insourcing everything and trying to keep our carbon footprint low. On the other, we are sitting in a room talking about international exports and trading. We need to be careful about this and keep an eye on climate change. I specifically reference the Canadian Energy Centre. In March and April it produced some fairly big advertising within the Irish media promoting fossil fuels. There was a bit of greenwashing in the advert, which our guests might have seen. Do our guests know whether the Canadian Energy Centre is a trade initiative of the Canadian Government, central or otherwise? Will our guests talk to us a little about the role of Canadian business in promoting oil and gas in Ireland more generally? Both Canada and Ireland have international climate obligation our governments have signed up to. It is a little counterintuitive to have Canadian companies proposing fossil fuel expansion here while we are simultaneously sitting in a room talking about the need for sustainable goals. I ask our guests to talk me through that, because if we are going to look at the opportunities, we have to look at the challenges. There is no point in us sitting here and being all Pollyanna about it. We need to be honest with each other.

Dr. Deirdre Giblin

Can I suggest, Chair, that we bounce to Mr. Collenette first on that?

An Cathaoirleach

Okay.

Mr. Chris Collenette

Number one, I am not aware that is a Government of Canada initiative and I highly doubt it is. Number two, the ICBA as an organisation has not been included or involved in that particular campaign. On fossil fuel promotion or use generally, I think we are all in agreement this is something that has to be dealt with and reduced responsibly over the coming decades, but it is also something we are not going to be able to get off altogether anytime soon. If we look at the Canadian footprint for traditional fuel exploration and whatnot in Ireland, the only refinery in Ireland, which is a strategic asset of the Government, frankly, is owned by a Canadian company called Irving Oil. It had committed to coming here and operating, and there are strategic reasons that refinery should continue to stand. Irving is a member of our organisation and a supportive one at that. Nephin Energy and Vermillion Energy are operating the Corrib gas field, which provides over 60% of the gas to homes in Ireland. Nephin is ultimately owned by the Canada Pension Plan. That again is a significant investment and of importance to the country.

You have to be living under a rock to believe fossil fuels are not contributing to an increasing carbon footprint and climate change. However, we are not in a situation where we can just turn them off right away and, like anything in life, we would like to take somewhat of a balanced approach to it. I hope that answers the Deputy's questions.

Mr. Jonathan O'Hara

I will be brief. I agree with Mr. Collenette on a number of points. Certainly the Government of Canada is very climate change focused. There are a lot of efforts in that direction. I agree with Mr. Collenette that the centre the Deputy referred to is not a government initiative. To add something to what Mr. Collenette said about not being able to move off oil and gas quickly, this is certainly a challenge the Government of Canada is really struggling with. We are a very natural resource-rich nation and it is about how that is going to work out. With respect to oil and gas, there is a lot of oil and gas, especially oil, used in non-energy contexts. To Mr. Collenette's point that we are not going to be able to shut that off immediately, petrochemicals, plastics and all those kinds of things are going to be needed in future for probably a significant amount of time and it is really just a way of doing those things as cleanly as we can. Oil and gas production is not all the same and so there are ways to do it that are better than others.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Is that a major problem for the Canadian Government? Is it about doing fossil fuels better, working hard towards their elimination or trying to do both?

Mr. Jonathan O'Hara

Those are important initiatives and certainly Canadian industry is conscious of the need to do oil and gas production better than has previously been done, because the Government of Canada's initiatives are pushing them in that direction.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Okay. Following on from that, when we talk about climate change we tend to pivot into green technology and digital technologies. How are domestic Canadian companies and SMEs dealing with the potential of digitisation to work remotely and do all that? Is the culture of work changing and how are Canadian companies moving towards green technologies? I understand what the ICBA representatives are saying about the work we have to do, which is going to be hard. Maybe it does not have to take a long time, but let us say it does and alongside that we have the shift towards the use of more green technology at the expense of the non-green technology as well. Then there is the potential of digitisation. How are SMEs in Canada managing to do that? How are they decarbonising and taking on new methods of working? How is that working for them?

Ms Jacqueline Gilna

With Covid, everybody was working from home and that was good for our carbon footprint. That was the upside of Covid, if you could say that. With the Canadian Government, most of those employed through the various trade unions and other organisations are now required to go back to the office at least two days a week, though do not quote me as that is a subjective response. Therefore, there is great concern within the real estate investment trust, REIT, organisations, that is, the property development companies, etc., about how they are going to balance the vacancy versus the return on investment to their stakeholders and answer the drive for carbon-neutral operations. It is a very mixed response.

The government has put protocols and tax incentives in place, and as Dr. Giblin was saying, Catherine McKenna did quite a lot of work in that area. The carbon taxes we pay, the return to work and the tax incentives that are there should, all in all, provide for a balance. However, governments come and governments go and change, and with that policy changes. I suggest respectfully we are all heading towards elections at some time and that may change into the future, but among other agreements we have together, Canada and Ireland work very closely and are very aligned on both climate change and climate action in our respective operations and collaborative approaches together.

Mr. Vivian Doyle-Kelly

I have one small point to add. It goes back to considering Canada as a number of different economies. We in Quebec are in a privileged situation in the respect that 95% of our electricity is generated from hydroelectricity. That is one of the things that gives us a huge cost advantage in attracting businesses, such as the aluminium industry and others that are very resource-heavy, such as the data centres. Thus, it is not one country but five or six different economies.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

We keep coming back to that. It was a bit of a steep learning curve for me because we are not dealing with just the economy. The country is obviously vast as well. I thank the Chair.

Deputy Richard Bruton

I thank our guests for their presentations. I had the good fortune to be the Minister with responsibility for enterprise just after the financial crash and can certainly appreciate the importance of the Canadian economy in opening up not just inward investment to Ireland but also being an outlet for Irish companies.

The negotiation of CETA certainly created new opportunities. Canada, certainly in the area of food, had been quite closed, and probably remains quite closed in many ways, to export, but CETA opened up opportunities in many sectors, including in the food and drink sector.

I would be interested to hear the witnesses' views on the trade agreement itself. In Ireland there has been quite a deal of controversy about the idea of having an investor dispute settlement mechanism. That would arise in extreme circumstances, where a company was expropriated by the State or treated in a very discriminatory fashion. It sets up an arrangement whereby there can be an adjudication within the agreement as opposed to through the courts. That has been quite controversial in Ireland. I am interested to know if it has been equally very controversial in Canada. These mechanisms are designed less for countries like Canada and probably more for trade agreements with countries that do not have very well-established legal systems, which people would have the ability to manoeuvre their way around. It gives investors some protection, but I would be interested to hear the witnesses' take because it remains a controversial issue in Ireland and has blocked the sanctioning of the Canadian trade agreement.

Ms Jacqueline Gilna

Perhaps Mr. O'Hara is best qualified to address that, subjectively or otherwise.

Mr. Jonathan O'Hara

The investor-state dispute settlement mechanism has been less controversial in Canada, and a lot of the fact that it has been less controversial - not uncontroversial but less controversial - goes to the Deputy's point that we are talking about the EU and Canada. These are relatively open countries dealing with the rule of law, so it has not been nearly as challenging in Canada as it has been in some other countries. CETA is already provisionally enforced and is doing a lot of very good things, even despite this small piece that is controversial. In some ways CETA gets a little unfair negative publicity because there is this small controversial piece. It is controversial for good reasons - I recognise that - but, as a whole, CETA has been very effective. I do not know if that answers the Deputy's question quite as pointedly as he wanted it answered.

Deputy Richard Bruton

I was party to some of those negotiations and I know how far both sides went to ensure this investor dispute settlement mechanism was seen as very even-handed. Despite that, it became a subject of considerable controversy, but I-----

Dr. Deirdre Giblin

Through the Chair, may we comment on that from an ICBA perspective for just a minute? Obviously, the Ireland Canada Business Association is a business association, so we are all about trade and will continue to advocate for CETA to be ratified in Ireland in a constitutional manner. We respect the institutions and the processes, the Supreme Court decision and what has come out from that, but I think we have demonstrated today a lot of the benefits that have come out of CETA. We do, however, respect the controversy around it and we look forward to how it plays its way through the system in the next while.

Deputy Richard Bruton

Another thing that interests me are the issues around climate. As the witnesses will know, the Green Deal is shifting the way in which trade will be done in the future. There is a proposal in Europe to have these border adjustment mechanisms such that if countries are not complying with the various Paris agreements or are not seen to be applying sensible or sustainable provisions in certain sectors, they cannot sell into markets that are trying to achieve high levels of sustainability. Is there a similar approach and concern in Canada? Will Canada look over time to such border adjustment mechanisms, or how does the Canadian side look at Europe's decision to do that?

Mr. Jonathan O'Hara

Canada is absolutely looking at that. The United States, as the Deputy probably well knows, is having some similar border mechanism discussions. Given that two of Canada's biggest trade partners are the EU and the US, there will be some kind of border adjustments. Canada already has carbon taxes. I think it is inevitable that as long as those two big trading partners continue moving their initiatives forward, Canada will do something as well. The current Government in particular is very sensitive to climate change, so I think there is a lot of appetite to do something like that, just as the Deputy described, to ensure everyone is incentivised equally to move towards climate change.

Deputy Richard Bruton

To go back to the issue of procurement, it is one of the most difficult areas in which to move away from national approaches because in the European context we are now obliged, and people find it cumbersome at times, when declaring that the procurement is of a certain scale, to go onto this very elaborate system. You will often find people saying that prevents small businesses from competing because it becomes so complicated by pan-European rules. You suspect that as regards the barrier in Canada, the various federal entities are not willing to take on such a superstructure, which would be necessary to really open up public procurement. Is there pressure on the different parts of the federation to have a common procurement strategy right across all states? Has that come about through the federation agreement or are we still looking at a separate market in Quebec from that in British Columbia or wherever it is someone might be trying to enter the market?

Mr. Jonathan O'Hara

I will start with the answer and then maybe defer to my colleagues. The answer is "No". The committee has heard us talk about how different the different parts of Canada are. We are talking not just about the provincial governments but also about provincial agencies, hospitals and so on. Canada is just too federated to be able to do that efficiently. There are some moves in that direction. There has been some discussion of having a national procurement dispute regulator. Currently, there is a federal one, the Canadian International Trade Tribunal, which is very well respected. There have been discussions about the provinces getting on board and having the federal regulator take over authorisation with respect to the provinces, but that has been pretty tentative and is still at the discussion stage. I would flag that western Canada has a trade agreement that has a unified procurement dispute mechanism across multiple provinces. The new west trade partnership covers British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba, and they have unified some of their procurement issues but still not to a point where there is one system to which everybody in Canada uploads procurements, unfortunately.

Deputy Richard Bruton

I will actually be in Canada, in Montreal, Quebec and Toronto, this summer so I will get to taste it first-hand.

An Cathaoirleach

You can brief us when you come back.

Deputy Richard Bruton

I will. I am going to see Pink. That might not qualify as-----

(Interruptions).

An Cathaoirleach

You can brief my wife on that one.

Deputy David Stanton

I understand some of our witnesses have flown in specially from Canada for this meeting. I thank them for that and recognise that. It shows the commitment they have made and the importance they attach to this process. I have one final question for Ms Gilna. She might tell us a little about We Are Global Irish Inc.

Ms Jacqueline Gilna

I will qualify that it is a commercial operation owned, founded and operated by me. If the Chair and the committee are comfortable, I will proceed with the answer.

Deputy David Stanton

Of course.

Ms Jacqueline Gilna

We connect culture with commerce. There are three different audiences. We facilitate business to and from the island of Ireland, among the Irish abroad and among the diaspora. There are three different communities and three different messaging services and systems. As for the Irish at home, I go back to the point earlier about small and medium-sized businesses, SMBs, and going abroad and having that opportunity but not quite qualifying with our State agencies.

With the Irish abroad, we have a lot of inbound inquiries from people trying to take their operations and products abroad. The Irish abroad are a very different category. We are Irish citizens and passport holders but, unfortunately, without a vote. I am one of the Irish abroad and my colleague and I are here today in that context and as part of what we do in We are Global Irish Inc. Those who live abroad have a much stronger connection with the homeland in which we were born and raised. Members of the Irish diaspora connect very much through surnames. When I asked my colleague, Mr. O'Hara, where his mum, dad, grandparents and so on were from, he explained to me his history. That is what the diaspora is and we must not lose touch with it. We also must not forget the Irish abroad. They are a very big market for us. It is about connecting the Irish abroad with the Irish at home.

The ambassador, Dr. Eamonn McKee, is very active in connecting culture with commerce, as were our previous two ambassadors, the late Mr. Jim Kelly and Dr. Ray Bassett. People can search coast to coast in Canada and find people with Irish names, perhaps starting with their own. In doing so, they have been able to connect their culture with the business community. I would like to think this idea was completely mine but I was fortunate to have been invited to an economic forum at which something similar was discussed. Years later, I thought: "Why not pursue this?" I engaged with a few people, who came and left, and I then took the idea forward by myself. We are Global Irish Inc. connects culture with commerce. We welcome working with State agencies and the Government.

Deputy David Stanton

I thank Ms Gilna. Dr. Giblin spoke earlier about all the younger Irish people she meets in Vancouver and other places. My son may have been among them. That is reflective of what Ms Gilna said about the new generation of young Irish who are travelling because they want to travel. They are having fantastic experiences and learning a lot. As Dr. Giblin said, they are growing in their careers as well.

Dr. Deirdre Giblin

The relationship is well evidenced between the work of Enterprise Ireland, IDA Ireland and Ambassador McKee and his team, and it is very much reciprocated by the Canadian ambassador to Ireland, Ms Nancy Smyth. When we go on trade missions or to meetings and events together, we are team Ireland-Canada and we play well.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank all the witnesses for their presentations, particularly those who travelled. It is much appreciated. This has been a useful and helpful engagement. I thank Deputy Stanton, who was instrumental in ensuring the meeting happened. He has been championing this cause since the pandemic period. It was difficult to get the meeting organised. I thank Deputy Stanton and the committee clerk for chasing it up for us over the past couple of months. I thank the members of the Joint Committee on Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth for giving us their meeting slot today. We will take up the witnesses' invitation to visit them, which I hope will happen before Christmas. We have previously discussed organising such an engagement. I again thank the witnesses. We will be considering this matter further as we go forward.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.44 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 21 June 2023.