Skip to main content
Normal View

Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment debate -
Wednesday, 25 Oct 2023

Engagement with Chairperson of the Health and Safety Authority

Members participating remotely are reminded they must do so from within the Leinster House complex. No apologies have been received.

Our engagement today is with the new chairperson of the Health and Safety Authority, HSA. The HSA is an important regulatory body that comes under the remit of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

The authority carries out important roles in relation to the regulation of occupational safety and health, chemicals, market surveillance and accreditation. I welcome the chairperson of the Health and Safety Authority, Ms Patricia Byron, to the committee. She is joined by board secretary Dr. Marie Dalton.

Before we start, as I always do, I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to another person in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by me to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

The opening statements have been circulated to members. To commence our consideration of this matter, I invite Ms Byron to make her opening remarks.

Ms Patricia Byron

Tá an-áthas orm a bheith anseo inniu. I thank the committee for the opportunity to be here.

I was formally appointed by the Minister during the summer. To date, I have chaired two meetings of the board, one just before the summer and one after, and have had a detailed induction and briefings from the authority’s executive on its mandate, strategy and operations. I also met with the Minister of State, Deputy Richmond, in September to discuss my role and to review current challenges and opportunities. I would like to acknowledge former chairperson Tom Coughlan and his board, and the chief executive and his team, for the work done to grow and develop the authority into a high performing and engaged agency that delivers on the key priorities for Irish society.

By means of an introduction to my own history, I have worked as a senior executive in the insurance and related financial services sector over many years. I was the first CEO of the Personal Injuries Assessment Board, PIAB, for over 11 years; an independent State body established to reform a costly personal injury claims environment. It is well established, as many know, at this stage. I am a past chairperson of the Motor Insurers Bureau of Ireland, where I led a key reform programme focused on business transformation and effectiveness. I currently work as a consultant in the financial services and health sectors. I also serve as a non-executive director on the board of the Central Bank of Ireland Commission and chair its audit committee. I am chair of the Health Insurance Authority board and was recently appointed chair of audit committee of the new Coimisiún na Meán. In my previous capacity as CEO of the PIAB, I have worked with the Health and Safety Authority on a number of risk minimisation initiatives. The objectives of both authorities continue to align.

I have now learned that the mandate of the Health and Safety Authority has broadened since my earlier days. Under the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act 2005, the authority protects the safety and health of workers and people affected by work-related activities. That is somewhat as it always has been but there are new and expanding initiatives. Under the chemicals mandate, there is a wide-ranging responsibility to ensure that workers, consumers, the public and the environment are protected from the harmful effects of chemicals. The authority has responsibilities under EU legislation for market surveillance of industrial products and chemicals. Finally, the authority also acts as the national accreditation body for Ireland.

The Health and Safety Authority’s vision is one of healthy, safe, and productive lives and enterprises. To achieve this vision, the authority sets out its priorities in a three-year strategy statement. The authority plans its programmes of work and assigns its resources to closely align with and support the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment’s strategy and the overall programme for Government. The most recent strategy statement for 2022 to 2024 commenced in a period of significant change for Irish workplaces as the economy and society emerged from the global Covid-19 pandemic. The board has recently completed a mid-term review of this strategy and I am pleased to confirm that it is largely on course to deliver its intended outcomes. I look forward to engaging widely as we work with the executive throughout 2024 to develop the next strategy for 2025 to 2027.

The authority seeks legal compliance through regulation and enforcement. Already I have been struck by the equal and appropriate emphasis on collaboration, promotion and influencing in order to maximise the authority’s contribution to prevention. The authority effectively leverages stakeholder networks at sectoral, national and EU levels. The tripartite board of the authority encourages and facilitates this collaborative approach through its nominating organisations and advisory committees. As a regulator, it is important to strike the right balance between promotion and enforcement. An inspection is not merely about identifying breaches. I am acutely aware of how the authority's inspectors engage actively and constructively with employers and workers across all sectors to encourage, foster and promote improvements. This is done by providing verbal and written advice and direction, along with additional supports that are available online. Of course, enforcement action is also undertaken as and when required.

In terms of progress in occupational safety and health, there has been an overall reduction in work-related fatalities in the past ten years and 2022 had the lowest fatality rate on record since the authority was established in 1989. However, as we know from the Road Safety Authority, one must keep vigilant at all times. It cannot be repeated too often that one death is one too many and I am very conscious that families, colleagues and communities are left devastated due to the lives that continue to be lost due to preventable work-related incidents. The authority maintains a particular focus on the high-risk sectors of construction, agriculture, health and social care, given the high rates of fatal and non-fatal injuries in these sectors. Importantly, the board of the authority has dedicated advisory committees to provide guidance and network support to the board in the construction and agriculture sectors, with a further advisory committee for the health and social care sector currently being established.

On key issues and the wider environment, Ireland's population now exceeds 5 million. Over 2.5 million persons are in employment. Against the backdrop of an expanding population, a growing workforce and changing employee expectations in a more blended and digitised working environment, the authority’s role in regulating its various mandates becomes increasingly complex. Based on the sanction received from the Department in 2021, the authority has increased staff numbers significantly, including establishing a new occupational health division. The board appreciates that the estimated 2024 funding will support the authority in its ongoing recruitment process and the onboarding of new staff, as well as continuing its organisational restructuring to better deliver on its broad mandate and changing work landscape. However, I am aware that the authority, like other agencies, is experiencing serious challenges in recruiting and retaining staff in a full employment market, particularly for specialist technical roles. To support its increasing workforce and the scope of its activities, the authority continues to transform its ways of working. There are significant strategic projects under way to introduce new technologies and structures to improve efficiency, planning, data quality and reporting to inform policy and decision-making. The board is monitoring and supporting these large-scale projects to ensure strategic benefits are delivered within agreed funding limits.

In familiarising myself with the organisation over the past number of months, I was heartened to witness the maturity of the authority's existing governance and accountability framework and of the multiple sources of assurance available to the board. I have been struck by the authority's ambition to become a truly evidence-based organisation. I know from my work in other environments that producing reliable, comparable and up-to-date statistical information is vital for setting policy objectives and to inform appropriate policy measures and preventative actions in order to optimise and deliver on our vision of healthy, safe and productive lives and enterprises.

As chairperson, I want to support the authority as it plays a key role to support many new developments in the economy. The first is regulating the area of new and sustainable energies. For example, the authority is assessing increasing numbers of land use planning requests for hydrogen production planning proposals. The authority is also responding to increasing chemical production and storage activity in response to Brexit, the Ukrainian war and climate change. As regards EU chemical policy, at European level, as the central competent authority under the Chemicals Act, the authority is working to influence EU chemical policy on the chemical strategy for sustainability and on the revisions of key chemicals legislation. We are also proactively promoting general awareness of the benefits of accreditation to drive new accreditation activity, which is an area I believe has huge potential to improve standards and productivity, and to ensure Irish companies can be as competitive and, indeed, as visible, as possible in the Single Market.

Expanding the authority’s expertise and capacity to address work-related psychosocial risks such as bullying, stress, violence and aggression, as well as safety and health issues associated with the gig economy and digital labour platforms, is all in our line of sight.

I thank the committee for its kind invitation to meet with it today. I look forward to bringing value to the authority and to working with Minister of State, Deputy Richmond, and his officials in the Department. Together with the board, I will support and challenge as appropriate the authority as it meets internal and external challenges. Go raibh maith agaibh go léir.

I thank Ms Byron for her evidence and for being here this morning. I am conscious she is not long in the role so I do not want to pepper her with questions but I have a particular interest in the work of the HSA and wanted to explore some of that with her. I fully appreciate there may be answers she has to follow up on in writing. That is grand but I do not think any of my questions are massively technical so hopefully she will not have to.

I want to talk about the expansion of the remit to address work-related psychological risks such as bullying, stress, violence and aggression. I am a former trade union official and have some knowledge of the work of the HSA and of the impact of these in the workplace. It can be hard to define some of the issues the HSA is taking under its remit. It is particularly difficult to investigate and come to conclusions in the gig economy and regarding digital labour platforms, as they are called. Will Ms Byron expand on the intention and how the authority plans to do its work in the area? It is very fast-moving. We had a session a couple of weeks ago on artificial intelligence, AI, and I do not think I was the only one whose jaw dropped to the floor on realising how much faster AI is moving than the labour market is moving and than we are moving. Does Ms Byron see a role for the HSA? What is that role? Will it have to upskill existing staff or bring in additional skilled staff to do it? It is a very new area. Will it come under the occupational health division? How will that work? Are there plans to expand it?

Ms Patricia Byron

In my short time with the authority, I have been taken by the board’s interest in this area. A number of board members question where the resources will be placed and how they will be located. We have an upcoming session on it. I think it is just before Christmas.

In terms of employing people, we have sanction, which is great, but finding the right people is an ongoing issue for us, in the inspectorate area in particular. The area the Deputy is talking about is equally technical and scientific; many might say it is even more so. In some respects, it is quite intangible. A person’s perception of being bullied is one thing; a person's perception of being the bully is another. My experience as a senior executive in the private and public sectors and chair of a number of public sector ARC committees in recent years is these matters are increasingly coming up and taking time.

They are, and they are very particular in the gig economy and the use of platform labour. They are tough to get to grips with.

Ms Patricia Byron

Yes. One of the issues is for people on the employer side to have training and knowledge. I spoke earlier about promotion and influence. From my time heading up PIAB, I have learned prevention is better than dealing with injuries. Many people who find themselves – for the want of a better word – in the dock for bullying or aggression do not realise they have crossed the line. They have not been trained. They are part of a society which has not trained them or shown them a more appropriate form of leadership. The way our organisations work now is not top-down. The world has changed and people are much more vocal about what they are due, respect and so on. It is a nebulous area and there are plans to bump up that area. The board has spoken about it during the two board meetings I was involved in. We are due a presentation. It has also been emphasised that to get the right people in is not that easy. They will be doing inspections. There will be at this stage a particular emphasis on people understanding how they present and manage and how they set, check and renew policies. I do not know about others in the room, but I remember when the health and safety statement came out, it was gathering dust on the top of a cabinet. We are a long way on from that. Health and safety officers attend board meetings now. This area will have to travel on quite a journey and I see the authority having a big space in it.

Absolutely. The obligation is on an employer to provide a person with a healthy and safe place to work but when a workplace is the phone or device you are carrying around, it is tough. I wish Ms Byron the best in trying to regulate that area. Specific expertise will be required. Relying on employers to provide leadership will not be sufficient. Rigorous investigation and enforcement will be needed because the capacity for bullying and creation of stress is multiplied when workers are in precarious employment and working long hours for low wages and when power lies in the app on the device. I appreciate what Ms Byron said about things being a little bit less top-down than they used to be but in the area of platform workers, it is very top-down because the app is king.

On a tangentially related issue, it is three years this month since I first raised content moderators with the previous Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. I raised it because their working conditions were brought to my attention and the fact these workers, many but not all of them young men and women, suffer PTSD as a direct result of the content they view. Has the HSA's remit been expanded or does it need to be expanded to encompass these workers? Can it encompass them already? There are serious issues around psychological damage being done to young people who are, in many instances, in precarious employment. They work for outsourced companies. You might think you are working for one of the big social media companies but actually you are many steps removed from that because they have outsourced that function. It is an essential function and I do not think it should be outsourced but that is their business. Does the HSA need its remit expanded or does the remit exist already? Does it have the personnel and capability to look into this.

Ms Patricia Byron

I clause my response on the basis that I am new on the block and subject to correction by the executive, who are closer to this. My take is it would be within our remit. I cannot see why it would not. You are entirely responsible for the health and well-being of anybody working under your auspices in an organisation. If people are subject to bullying in the canteen or see something that damages their psyche, having seen content on the screen, the colour of the screen or the light on screen, that is all about whether it is a healthy place to be and people are protected to the required levels. That is a refinement that will have to be made in this area. It is only developing. It is a new area for the authority. We have invested quite a lot of money in recent times in Project IRIS, which is about data collection and having the platforms. It is an agency that is under change.

There is our internal platform and the next phase will be engagement with third parties. Then, data will be uploaded from people from whom we need returns or whatever. All of that data will be very important in this area. We can, in any environment, be driven by the hot topic of the day but it is very important, as I said in my presentation, to understand the areas in which there are quantum issues, the nature of those issues, why they are developing and how to prevent them. I have always been in favour of prevention, education, training, promotion, influencing and if necessary, cajoling. It is the best way. Then, you do not have the issue to deal with.

I have a view that for many of these workers, their health, safety and welfare at work are not protected. I do not believe that encouragement will work. There needs to be a gathering of information, but to be honest, a massive volume of information does not need to be gathered; we already see horrific content on social media. These people are the gateway; the stuff they see is stuff nobody should ever see. It is horrendous. It will not require a massive amount of investigation to know that post-traumatic stress disorder, PTSD, comes directly from that because no person should have to see the stuff they do. The HSA needs to be there to support those workers. The Communication Workers' Union, CWU, does a lot of organising work in that area but there is a very high turnover of staff, given the nature of the work. They are there long enough to get the damage but not long enough with the company to be able to repair it. I look forward to seeing the authority expand its remit to-----

Ms Patricia Byron

Noted.

I understand that the HSA technically encompasses it now but it is a very specific area. The capacity for trauma is huge. On that, I wish to ask about staffing levels, particularly inspectors. I have raised this issue consistently. Does Ms Byron know how many inspectors will retire this year and next? Is there a pipeline of personnel to replace them? Often, we get caught up in recruitment figures. The Minister says X number of people have been recruited, which is grand, but there might be double that number heading out the door because they have done their shift. Does the HSA have clear sight of the number in the pipeline for inspectors?

Ms Patricia Byron

In my briefings, I have discussed the overall numbers in the inspectorate because it goes back to promotion, influence and identifying the issues. We are approximately 20% behind on inspectors. The key driver of that gap has nothing to do with retirements, on the basis of the information provided to me. It is to do with getting the right technical resources. It is not necessarily that people do not want to work with us but the salary bands are the issue. We need people with two to three years' experience in a specific area and our salary bands are mismatched. I will not go any further than that.

Ms Patricia Byron

I appreciate it is an issue across the public service. I see it in a lot of other environments with which I work at the moment. It is a problem we all have to deal with.

It is the technical expertise. Finally, Ms Byron said in her submission that 2022 had the lowest fatality rate on record since the authority was established in 1989. That is good news but, as she said, even one death is one too many. I wish to ask about non-fatal injuries, which she mentioned in her submission. What are the numbers in that regard and in which direction are they going? Are there particular sectors in which there are high rates of non-fatal injuries? Does the authority have a plan to address that?

Ms Patricia Byron

I have been looking at this area. In 2021, there were 8,370 non-fatal injuries but it went up by 8% in 2022, at 9,070. I do not have a figure for the year to date in front of me but I think it is on the increase. Concerning trends, we are looking at where to spend the money. We are talking about psychosocial. It is still construction and farms. Farms represented 50% and construction 25%. From the figures I have been able to dive into, we need to focus on smaller construction sites. I have asked the executive about it. Something that came up across my line of sight of late is whether there are fewer legal requirements on smaller construction sites than on major ones. We find that more accidents occur in that area, particularly falling from heights. There was also a potential increase - do not take it as definite - but I am following a thread with many solar panels going up. Of course, in farms, there are many barns and all of that and people who maybe just jump up or get the guy next door.

Ms Patricia Byron

It is the gig economy. Those are some of the areas. When our digital platform is up and running now, it is an area in which I will work with the board to dive further into. There is quite a lot of not alone production of chemicals but also storage and transport. There are areas which we need to have a really good look at. There is also hydrogen storage, which I think I mentioned. Technical guidance could be issued to planners in that area for prevention. I could talk about nursing homes and a lot of others but-----

Concerning non-fatal injuries, a slight increase was recorded?

Ms Patricia Byron

There is an increase. In fatal, there could be an increase this year, we just have not gone beyond last year at the moment.

We are not far enough into the year.

I welcome Ms Byron and congratulate her on her appointment. I wish her the best with it. The HSA has a massive remit and it is very complex, technical and detailed. I went through its website and it is actually quite good. My colleague has quite rightly been pointing out the issues with respect to sensitive data; I noticed on 13 September last that a press release was issued pertaining to that particular matter. I am not sure whether the authority has any power to engage or get involved if somebody is psychologically damaged through their work as a moderator or, indeed, any other work during which they have been exposed to such awful stuff, which Deputy O'Reilly quite rightly highlighted. It is relatively new and something that I think we will all agree needs to be focused on.

We need to think of the people who have died in the workplace recently and while things are improving, one death is one too many. We should keep those people and their families in our thoughts. I am aware of a number in my area who have passed away tragically. Non-fatal injuries can also be quite traumatic. There were, I think, more than 8,000 in 2021. I wish to ask about culture. Perhaps the HSA could get involved because I hear from time to time, as I am sure other colleagues have, that, "It is all health and safety", and, "We are gone overboard with health and safety", and if workers go out to fill a pothole, they must put up flags, signs and posters and all the rest. There is work to be done in that regard. Perhaps Ms Byron will tell me if she agrees or if she will take it on board. We need to start flipping that the other way so that health and safety become paramount and not seen as an obstacle, burden or cost to work being done. That includes employers and employees; everybody should have health and safety as the number one in their thoughts. Everyone should focus on that. If there is an issue in a workplace that is dangerous, people should be encouraged to come forward, report it, announce it and tell people about it because it can lead to injury or death. There is a cultural issue in Ireland of, "It will be grand", "Get on with it", "What about it?" and "All the health and safety stuff". I am concerned about that. Will Ms Byron comment on that?

Ms Patricia Byron

I thank the Deputy for his question.

I believe in promotion, influence, training and education. Those are rooted in my background.

I have to trot out the well-worn phrase that culture eats strategy. It always does. I go a little further on that. It is about right and wrong. Value sets make a huge difference, in particular at the board table. As a chair in many environments, I often ask where we are coming from in terms of value sets. Culture is a huge issue for us in terms of promotion with the various businesses we engage with. Last week, I had the pleasure of making a site visit in County Kilkenny to a small business that makes conveyor belts with a number of the big names. It only has 12 employees. This is a successful company, which could grow bigger but has decided not to. It makes enough money to sustain itself at a reasonable level, but still gets the big brands because of the quality coming out of the organisation. I have witnessed it and it is top class. Out of 12 staff, two are constantly looking at quality, compliance and making sure everything is done to the right level. The owners have an open door policy, which I saw. The lads on the floor can go up at any time of the day and say they do not like the look of X, Y or Z. That is culture in action.

I chair a number of audit and risk committees. I always say that audit is about promoting and finding where we are wrong, addressing it and having a culture where someone will say they are delighted something was found because it can now be fixed and they can move on, as opposed to have what historically would have been the "Aha" moment, where somebody is buried. It is an absolute turnaround and something I have spoken about already.

I will expand a little. While I think the motivation is probably correct and well-meaning from their point of view, I have come across some companies which have signs up stating the workplace has been accident free for two years or so many days and so forth. There is then pressure on people not to report accidents because they break this record. It is something I have been concerned for some time. I have heard anecdotally of people having accidents in such companies and not reporting them because of pressure not to lose this clean record. I am not sure if it is something Ms Byron has given any thought to but it concerns me and should be outlawed.

Ms Patricia Byron

I have not seen that but I would say it is a real example of wrong key performance indicators, KPIs. I have been involved in the Central Bank and you see what happened with wrong KPIs in the financial services sector. KPIs are hugely important in any environment. I mentioned health and safety representation at the board table. I remember in my prior life with the Health and Safety Authority doing projects with the Personal Injuries Assessment Board, PIAB, from the perspective of prevention. I remember a site visit with a pharmaceutical company in County Waterford. It had a model where it put in the number of accidents it avoided by running the organisation well. It monetised how much that contributed to the bottom line. It was not a cost. It was a credit to the organisation. I would rather see something in that line. I have not seen a sign like the one the Deputy mentioned and I would not like to see a sign like that. These are things we note.

I notice that the HSA's remit extends to outdoor workers being exposed to UV rays. That is interesting. In my town and area in the past week, we have had severe weather and flooding. I also notice there is a section on the HSA website dealing with flooding and so on, which is good to see. One of the most difficult areas where we see a lot of fatalities and injuries is farms. What are Ms Byron's thoughts on how we can better engage with farmers and people working in the agricultural community to cut down on the number of accidents and fatalities?

Ms Patricia Byron

This is a question I have posed to the executive and, as I say, I am new on the block. It seems to me that we do engage with all of the relevant representative bodies and groups. From the data I have looked at and discussed, the issue seems to be with smaller farms, heights and tractors. I will go back to culture. It seems that when people are working on a farm, some of them do not see themselves as being in a business environment and workplace. The house is on the site. Maybe two or three children live in houses around the environment and it is all their land, whether it is ten acres or 100. That culture is not of a workplace and holding each other to account as you would colleagues in another working environment. I again think back to targeting what the problem is and going after those specific areas like heights and smaller entities, and the sense that a family is not a workplace environment. There is also the gig economy of getting the guy from down the road to bring up his tractor, hoist or whatever and paying him a few bob for the day.

Ms Byron mentioned the relatively new interest in the whole area of renewable energy. The committee has done some work on this. The website mentions solar farms, wind farms and so on and notes that even when they are operational they are still workplaces, which is important. I draw Ms Byron's attention to the expanding area of businesses and farms installing solar panels on the roofs of their buildings. I notice that in other jurisdictions which are ahead of us in this area, there are people installing these panels who are not qualified. This is because it is such a huge area. Quite often, in these other jurisdictions these panels are leaking electricity. I know the Register of Electrical Contractors of Ireland, RECI, is involved in this to some extent, but it can only be called out if there is a complaint. Does the HSA have a remit to ensure these panels are installed correctly by qualified people and there is proper oversight by the authorities to ensure the standards are complied with and safety is paramount?

Ms Patricia Byron

Again, my reply will be subject to any correction the executives deem necessary. My understanding is that the installation, efficacy and efficiency of the appliances and delivery of the deal to install them would not be under our remit. It is again about the working environment, no more than if people are going up a crane, scaffolding or a roof without the right boots, ladders, safety harnesses and so on. In the discussions I have had, it pops out to me that there is an issue with heights in that area. It is potentially increasing due to the number of solar panels, and the number of people engaging in installation. Some of those companies are small and some are large. Are they all dedicating the right number of people and resources to the health and safety of their workers?

I have also noticed, from the unfortunate number of people who have been killed or died in the workplace, that there seems to be a bias towards older people. I think that ten of the people who died in one year were aged between 55 and 64. is there an age-related issue there? Is there a correlation between age and injury and fatality that we should be concerned about?

Ms Patricia Byron

I omitted to point to heights, small contractors, the self-employed, the gig economy, manual labour, males and those aged over 55. I have spent some time gathering the data and looking at this and that is how I have summarised it for myself.

There is an issue there we need to be concerned about.

Ms Patricia Byron

Yes.

This is my final question, and I think Deputy Louise O'Reilly asked it too. Will Ms Byron give the committee an overview of how many staff are in the HSA? Are there enough staff? Does the authority need more staff? Is there competition for qualified staff, as there is in many other institutions and agencies?

Ms Patricia Byron

We have been fortunate enough to secure the sanction. We are grateful to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the executive which has worked with it to achieve the sanction. I think we are sanctioned for 317 staff and the number we have now is above 280 or 290. We are experiencing difficulties. Many competitions are going on, particularly in the technical area. There is a broad remit, including people who are scientists with particular expertise in particular areas. Somebody having just done a degree is no good to us. We need experience.

I thank Ms Byron.

I notice from the introduction that the lowest fatality rate since the establishment of the authority in 1989 was recorded in 2022. That is welcome. I also note the increase in injuries, which obviously needs much attention. One worker who died this year is a man named John Murphy. John died in June, two months after he sustained burn industries in a preventable industrial accident at one of the Stryker plants in Carrigtwohill.

The Deputy needs to be careful. I know the case he is talking about. I just ask him to be careful.

I will just say that John was a husband and father of three children. There have been several fires across the site since that fatal accident. Four have resulted in evacuations. Many workers at the site will say that health and safety improvements and investment are going on but they are not the expensive fixes. They are the smaller jobs rather than the more expensive fixes. For example, I have reports of leaks in a section of roof there. There are leak catchers. Below the leaks in the roof, separated from the leak in the roof by the leak catchers, there is high voltage machinery. Many workers will report that the air quality is not of the highest standard. There is no mandatory mask-wearing in the plant. Many of the workers are members of unions, and of one union in particular, but in practice, there is not union recognition. There is a chill factor where people do not kick up too much about the health and safety issues because the investment could move to Poland.

I am not going to ask Ms Byron specific questions about that plant, although it is a plant that I think the HSA would be very familiar with, but I will ask her two general questions. How many unannounced inspections did the HSA do in the last year that it recorded figures for? Unannounced inspections have a certain advantage over announced ones, for obvious reasons, including spot checks, and I would like to see more of them.

Statistics internationally seem to indicate strongly that there is a lower rate of injury in unionised workplaces than in non-unionised workplaces. The lower rate can be as high as 24%, which I saw in a survey done by academics in Britain. It was some time back, but 24% is quite a figure. The reason seems to be obvious. Where there is a union organisation, particularly a strong union organisation, there is less of a fear factor. People can report a concern about health and safety without a fear that they will be in some way punished for having spoken up and pointed it out. Will Ms Byron comment on whether the indications from the HSA investigations and so on would back up the idea that, where there is worker and union organisation, there is less of a fear factor and more of a tendency to report and have a safe workplace?

Ms Patricia Byron

We are touching on a subject we discussed already this morning, which is culture. A culture is needed where reporting is seen as a positive thing, in other words, that employers welcome a report so that they can address it. It is a one-for-all and all-for-one sort of approach. I cannot answer the question because I do not have the answer about numbers of accidents in unionised and non-unionised environments, but we will get that information for the Deputy and come back to him with it. I would be surprised if the Health and Safety Authority does not do unannounced visits. Part of my history, including in the insurance industry, was as an inspector, claims adjuster, loss adjuster and all sorts in the early part of my career. It is like going into your office and opening the post yourself. I cannot give the Deputy figures on that either because I do not have them to hand but we can certainly check that.

Our figures are in the top quartile internationally for the lowest incidence of fatalities and injuries. I asked about that and got that confirmation. We are doing well with numbers both nationally and comparatively. Talking about a unionised or non-unionised environment, I hope that we can aspire to the correct culture, whether it is a union environment or not. I accept that there are probably more structures in a unionised environment and those structures can be monitored to ensure there are the right structures for reporting, risk analysis, risk frameworks, dashboards and all the good things that are required to identify and address risk. One will probably find them in more mature organisations that have unions. I imagine that would be stacked up in the figures. That is food for thought. I am just getting my feet under the table. I would not have thought of things with regard to a union or non-union environment driving more or less accidents. I will certainly look at that.

If Ms Byron could send me the statistics, I would appreciate it.

Ms Patricia Byron

I will.

I congratulate Ms Byron on her important appointment. Before I speak about the HSA, I will go back to her previous role in the insurance sector, which is important to this committee. Ms Byron was previously the CEO of PIAB and a past chairperson of the Motor Insurers Bureau of Ireland. It appears that the judicial guidelines are having an effect on compensation.

Deputy Shanahan cannot ask those questions. Ms Byron is here from the HSA, in fairness, so whatever happened-----

I was just seeking an opinion.

Deputy Shanahan can ask outside the committee.

Ms Patricia Byron

I would be happy to talk at any stage.

I thank Ms Byron. Getting to her role in the HSA, she has succinctly highlighted the challenges and the good work the HSA has been doing for a number of years. That is plain to be seen, particularly in the construction sector. Anybody who has worked in that sector over the past 20 years will have seen a marked change in culture and compliance. Certainly, in larger building concerns, people will not get onto a site now unless they are fully compliant with Safe Pass and so on.

On the point about Safe Pass, we have the issue every year with recertification of people. There are contractors or employees with certificates for driving forklifts or teleporters. Others with Safe Pass have to go to get recertified. Will Ms Byron look at the number of people who are providing training? I am aware of a number of firms which bid for contracts or which have to get on site and they cannot get their employees recertified in a timely way.

Ms Patricia Byron

In terms of volume of certification companies?

Someone trying to get a certification redone might be waiting three months, during which time that person is out of certification and an employer cannot bring him or her onto a site. It seems that there may need to be more accredited people to do the training.

The issue of solar panels, rigging and so forth was mentioned. It is an important area that we need to consider. Ms Byron will be well aware that, where anyone is doing that work in the commercial sector, there is a requirement for hoist tickets, people to be tethered when working at heights and so forth. The remarks about the informal sector were right, though, particularly in terms of agriculture. The requirements need to be highlighted. For example, round-top hay barns are very dangerous, with a lot of the roofs where people are going being unstable. Perhaps the Irish Farmers Association, IFA, and Teagasc could work on providing training courses.

Recent years have seen fatalities owing to slurry tanks and water tanks on farms. Ms Byron will be aware that the main problem on farms is the availability of labour. Most farms, particularly small ones, essentially have just one family member doing all of the work. This raises the informal issue, in that the farm is not a formal workplace as people understand it. Work needs to be done on teaching farmers about the dangers of gases, not only from slurry tanks, but from tanks with long-standing water that might have slurry in them. These dangers are not well understood. A number of fatalities and close calls have been documented in the media this year in respect of gas from tanks.

Tractors, trailers and power take-offs are the three main areas where accidents among young farmers occur. During harvest season, we can see 15-year-olds and 16-year-olds driving 200 hp tractors pulling trailerloads of silage at 25 mph or 30 mph. We all know that the work has to be done but there is an inherent danger in this. That danger is seen in the accidents and, unfortunately, fatalities that occur on farms every year. I am very close to the farm sector, so I am not bashing farmers but this matter needs to be considered. Times have changed completely in terms of tractor power and the weight and momentum of the loads that people are pulling on roads. Training and certification should be considered.

Ms Byron mentioned how a great deal of work was being done on hydrogen planning. I assume that includes biogas from anaerobic digesters. Will she outline what she meant when she said that the HSA was working with companies on hydrogen planning applications? Will she give us the breadth and scale of those companies? This will be an important sector for us.

Ms Patricia Byron

We would need the chief executive in attendance to go into that matter in any great detail. After my recent appointment, I spoke to him about where the HSA’s energies were focused and where he felt more work would be done. We have a sustainability and climate agenda and, aside from solar panels, we are seeing more applications for hydrogen tanks. I am aware of applications for the reconstitution of other tanks for hydrogen storage outside the country, if not in the country. This is an emerging area on which we need to educate ourselves and acquiring the right skill sets. We cannot regulate people without having the right skill sets on our side of the table.

I have worked with a number of State bodies in one capacity or another. We believe that cross-agency engagement is essential in this space. There is no point in us just coming in and shouting the odds about X, Y and Z in terms of safe and healthy work environments. It is a question of influencing people at an earlier stage. Rather than dealing with the output, let us deal with the input with the planners. I have encouraged that engagement.

In terms of the nitty-gritty of what happens, it is about ensuring that these units are safe places during their construction and, once they are working, maintenance. I would leave the technical details to those in that space.

We are still waiting for the Minister to produce a national hydrogen strategy. It will be an important sector for Ireland, so it would be good to understand the technical safety requirements. I am sure that the HSA will have a large role to play in that. Perhaps it will work closely with the new technological universities to ensure that we have suitably educated people to regulate this space.

Ms Patricia Byron

My goddaughter works for one of these companies and is the hydrogen lead for Ireland. People in their early to mid-20s are now coming through with technical knowledge that is far beyond people who have been around for a long time. It is a whole new area.

I will next call Senator Sherlock and Deputy Bruton.

I thank the witnesses for attending and congratulate Ms Byron on her new role. I welcome a number of her comments about how inspections are not just about identifying breaches. Setting out the work programme is also to be welcomed.

I wish to ask about the constraints within which the HSA operates. Ms Byron spoke about recruitment challenges and trying to access technical expertise. I apologise if some of these questions have already been asked, as I had to be elsewhere, but has the HSA engaged with the Government on additional funding or on doing something specific to ensure a full complement of inspectors?

Ms Patricia Byron

We have to thank the Department for its sanction in that regard. I have often worked with agencies where I had to say we were looking for sanction, but we have crossed that bridge. It is now a question of going to the marketplace and getting people to join.

Is it a matter of pay?

Ms Patricia Byron

The level of pay is an issue across the piece.

Has the HSA considered revising inspectors’ pay scales?

Ms Patricia Byron

We are in discussions on that with the Department in terms of how we can reallocate staff and work smarter with the resources we have. It is not always about more funding or saying a new body is needed. We have the additional sanction and we are confident that we have the right level of funding, at least for this year and next. The executive is determining what gaps in skill sets and qualifications need to be plugged in our organisation. As with other agencies, it is a matter of selling the fact that we offer public sector benefits and showing how there are ways in which it could be more preferable to work for us than for the private sector.

Hopefully, those issues will be resolved soon.

I welcome Ms Byron’s comments about a greater focus on smaller companies and organisations. That is important. Something that strikes me about the HSA is that it cannot be everywhere at all times. No matter how many inspectors it has in the field, it will not be able to capture every organisation. I agree with Ms Byron on the issue of culture, but how does one create culture on the ground? There can be training in leadership for those who run the companies, but workers having a greater sense of participation and a greater say in how the companies are organised is also important. Therefore, there needs to be union recognition and a lack of hostility towards unions in workplaces. Following on from Deputy Barry’s comments, will the HSA consider how it could improve culture within workplaces? “Culture” is an enormous phrase, but to break it down, it cannot just be about training. It also has to be about worker participation and trade unions. Could that be a part of the HSA’s future work programme on improving culture if we are to live within these resource constraints and not have thousands of inspectors out in the field?

Ms Patricia Byron

Worker participation is not only confined to a unionised environment. I would start with workplace culture and worker participation, whether it is unionised or not. Based on the Senator's previous question, I will see if there is any evidence that there are more or fewer accidents or fatalities in unionised or non-unionised environments. That would be an evidence-based approach to identifying whether we need to respond in that way. That is not a way to address issues in an environment. It is really more about a safe and healthy working place for all, done in a collaborative way.

If there is a recognition that there are not enough resources available, then other mechanisms have to be found to improve the surveillance.

Ms Patricia Byron

That is more about data-driven analysis of what I would term "sandboxes" in terms of risk management, risk profiling and having a proper risk framework in an environment, whether it is financial services, health and safety or the food industry. If one has the right data, one can see if there are more accidents in one cohort or than in another. The largest part of our productivity comes from small to medium-sized enterprises. Obviously, that in itself is a statistic that can be looked at. We can decide that we need to look in those areas. Potentially, the multinationals are fine. They have the resources, the money, the infrastructure and the learning and they can have a dedicated division. It is different for a five-person farm or, for example, the premises I visited in Kilkenny last week, a 12-person operation. One has to work in a different way.

That is the whole point, having other forms of surveillance and eyes on the ground.

Ms Patricia Byron

Yes, we follow different categories. We cannot just be looking at the large or the small. We identify where the accidents are happening.

I am concerned about the fact that is data-driven, which is my background. If that is the case, it means being constantly behind because one has to wait for the data to be generated, as opposed to a real-time surveillance and monitoring situations on the ground.

Ms Patricia Byron

We have routine surveillance all the time. That also continues with education, training and spot checks. These are all part of it. I would be surprised to think that the HSA would be waiting for the accidents to occur in order to analyse them and go back in afterwards. That is certainly not the case.

Regarding the guidance document on exposure to sensitive content that was published in September. This is very welcome and it is great that the HSA is expanding its remit in this regard. The report notes that the government of Victoria in Australia plans to introduce regulations. Does Ms Byron see this document as the start of a process to regulate work that deals with sensitive content or does she believe there needs to be legislative change?

Ms Patricia Byron

I have just hit the ground in this new role in the last two months, which included the summer recess. I know it is an issue and it is on the radar of the authority. We are beginning to go down that seam to look at how dense and how broad the issue is. I have not been made aware of any call for legislation, at this point. If there was a call, quite a lot more work would have to be done.

Would the legislation be called for by HSA board members or by the Government?

Ms Patricia Byron

The Senator is asking if there is a need for legislation.

Ms Patricia Byron

As far as I am aware at this point, we are not at a mature enough stage in our discussions or inquiries to call for legislative change.

Having read the document, I welcome it. However, I am struck by the fact that it is aimed at those who occasionally have to interact with sensitive and harmful content as opposed to those who have to do so on a daily basis. There is a an urgent need for the HSA to develop additional content for those who deal with this on a daily basis as opposed to when it happens incidentally, in the course of a person's work. There is certainly much more work to be done to expand on this document. However, I welcome it as a starting point.

I congratulate Ms Byron on her appointment and on her work in the public service over a long period. She mentioned the importance of an evidence base. How do we compare internationally, either sectorally or globally, particularly in the problem sectors like construction and agriculture? Should we be doing better in some of these spheres and are there lessons to be learned?

Undoubtedly, the economy is undergoing a massive transformation at the moment. We do not yet know the end of it, with elements like artificial intelligence, energy requirements and the circular economy. How is the HSA gearing up to this? We already see that remote working is becoming quite prevalent. Undoubtedly, this must throw up some health and safety issues as to who is responsible for safety and how it is to be managed. It would be interesting to get Ms Byron's insights.

We also heard about how AI is changing the way people are overseen in the workplace. It can be both a positive, if it identifies health and safety issues, but it can be negative if it is used for excessive surveillance. Where does Ms Byron see that going in her area?

The circular economy is a pet interest of mine. Our regulatory frameworks are very much geared towards the traditional linear economy. We do not like to see goods coming back again. Waste being reused is deemed to be somehow inferior. It carries with it all sorts of risks. The reality is that with the circular economy we are facing a need to embrace the reuse of materials and the repair of things that are broken. A purist health and safety approach would say that the surest way to keep things safe is to use virgin material, never bring it back into the workplace a second time, and dump it. In what ways is the HSA looking at these new sectors that could easily be constrained by an excess of officiousness about some of the requirements? I do not mean just in health and safety, but generally. Some of the rules around food preparation, for example, sometimes seem extraordinarily cumbersome when we are trying to encourage local businesses. How does Ms Byron see these big trends in our economy and how can the HSA respond to them?

Ms Patricia Byron

I do not have the granular detail on the international front, but I have requested it and it is being looked at the moment. The detail I have been given suggests that we are in the top tier internationally on fatalities and injuries in having lower numbers.

We had an excellent conference in association with the EPA last week on the issue of chemicals. More than 200 delegates, many from abroad, attended it at one of the hotels in the Point Village. Apparently, we are seen as leaders in the field of health and safety in the chemical sector. I thought that was really interesting. We are very lucky to now have our ex-CEO, Dr. Sharon McGuinness, as the head of the European Chemicals Agency, ECHA.

I, too, am very much in favour of the circular economy. The key piece here is standards. If a standard is set, it cannot be diluted. The issue is to ascertain what the correct standard is. In my paper earlier, I used the word "balance". I have seen it in the financial services sector and in other regulatory areas. I am involved with Coimisiúin na Meán, chairing the ARC committee. It has to do a lot of work online and there is a big remit there. It is about balance, but when things go wrong, people do not worry about over-regulation.

I will give an example. We all go around with our mobile phones at the moment and they are being reconstituted. There are potential issues around the components and whether they are all good for us. I have no evidence to produce here or anything. Do we lower the standards because we can reconstitute all the phones and not sell new phones or do we keep to the standards? I think we have to keep to the standards and define that.

There is the question of interrogating this issue of balance. We can have a perfect standard that can only be reached in a pristine environment using virgin material. We can have that standard and say it is the Rolls Royce standard. However, if we want to reuse material and bring it into a workshop, ipso facto, we cannot get that Rolls Royce standard. We are in a different environment. I do not think it is good enough to say, "let us stick to the standards". We have to decide if the standard that was designed for those environments is still the standard in a world that is climate challenged, has biodiversity problems and all the rest of it.

Ms Patricia Byron

Let us talk about buildings just as an analogy. We have regulations that we needed to have dual aspect windows. That was a gold aspiration. Was it to do with standard or was it to have more light?

I am thinking about the waste stream and building is a good example. Only 11% of material thrown out is even recycled let alone recovered into reuse streams. Reuse is something less than 1%. Unfortunately we do not have a high health and safety standard in construction. As far as materials handling goes, we might have good practice but it is not a sustainable practice. This is not a criticism but someone needs to think to think through how we can create an acceptable standard for repair and reuse in construction, white goods, telephones and all this.

Ms Patricia Byron

I absolutely agree. If in doubt, going to the virgin position, as the Deputy mentioned earlier, is not the way to go. What I am saying that we need to ensure it is safe. That is it. Going back to the analogy of the phone, we all get offers of more sophisticated phones. Do we need them? Are they right? Maybe there is a sustainability issue around that or many other areas. However, any phone or appliance that has to go out and that we have to work with in our working environment needs to be safe and healthy.

Does Ms Byron want to comment on remote working? It is a real and present issue. We are all working in home environments now. Who has responsibility? What is the role of the HSA? It is hardly going into a home.

Ms Patricia Byron

Well, it is a workplace. All employers have a duty to go into the homes.

How is the HSA tackling it now?

Ms Patricia Byron

It came up in my short time with the authority in terms of our own people and in terms of what we require of other employers. They need to be sure that somebody is at home, the screen is at the correct height, the chair is right, they have a safe place, the lighting is right and so on. Many of us, myself included, have found our eyesight has deteriorated over Covid with screen work. I would imagine I probably should have had more attention to my own health and safety regarding that. Yes, we have a role in that. We carry out ergonomic inspections for our own staff. It is more intensive now because we have more people working at home.

Are we in a good place or are we in a catch-up?

Ms Patricia Byron

I have no statistics with me. I would think it is something that needs to be monitored and checked. We have literally done a volte-face. We may have had a few people in many of our organisations working remotely but now we have most people working at home two to three days a week. During Covid we all did our best. Chairs and monitors were sent out but whether people have those set up in the right shape, form or composition needs to be inspected. It is part of our remit, yes.

I think I have exhausted my time. If I may ask two final questions, what are the HSA's KPIs? I do not mean for Ms Byron to go through them now but I would be interested to see what KPIs the authority follows. On the issue of high-risk settings, how does the HSA deploy its inspectors to make sure it is going to them? Is there a fairly sophisticated model of risk assessment and deployment?

Ms Patricia Byron

On where they go and why they go to particular settings, it is something I have asked about as well. It is based on the data the agency has. A lot of people might say there is a big issue in the psychosocial area now, bullying or whatever. Others might say it is the chemical area, for example. With this new database, the agency is going to be able to calibrate and see where maybe the smallest entity - I do not want to comment on Creeslough but there it was a small petrol station and the impact of an incident was humongous and devastating for the families and the area. It is not necessarily the massive plant down in Waterford with 300 employees, or whatever, that can cause the most devastation. I will go back to the word "sandbox". It is about that sort of approach. We are building something a little bit more sophisticated. I am not saying that what is there is bad but with our extended brief we need to be sure we are covering all the bases in the right way.

My background is in insurance so I am very much risk-based, risk analysis, evidence-based, risk frameworks, dashboards, all of that. On top of that, going back to the Deputy's view, it is about being on site, talking to people and just getting the sense of things as well because the data do not always unearth everything. That is why we need to be on site. I have seen it myself over the years. I have inspected many a roof or many a farm. You go out to look at what you think is the issue and it is just in the discussion between the car and the slurry pit that you see there is a totally different risk here.

I have one question picking up on remote work. We have seen a stabilisation of trends now in terms of the numbers, or are beginning to see one. I am open to correction but I think 2007 is when we had the last set of health and safety regulations with regard to working at home and remote work. We have the guidance document from the Health and Safety Authority that was just published in the wake of the pandemic. Is there a plan on the part of the HSA to look for an update of those regulations? If I recall correctly, the legislation refers to desktops and the angles; it is a workplace that many younger workers would not recognise at all now in terms of how technology is used. Is there a plan to seek an update to those regulations or is the HSA content to leave them?

Ms Patricia Byron

I have not been made aware of a plan but there could be a plan. I can certainly check that for the Senator. If she wants my own personal view, the terrain has changed completely, as the Senator says, so it would be something that we should be looking at. Whether it is this week or next year, I would be interested in the wisdom around that. It is changing. I have heard of international organisations that have brought people back in four days a week and notified staff they are bringing them back in five days a week. We have no set piece here yet. It is going to be interesting to see where it is going to go. Obviously the unions will have a lot to say about that as well. It is the same with our buildings. We are not sure where they are going to go, whether we are ultimately going to have an undersupply or an oversupply.

That concludes our consideration of this important matter. I thank Ms Byron for assisting the committee with it.

I propose that we suspend briefly and resume shortly to hear from the new chairperson of Enterprise Ireland. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Sitting suspended at 11 a.m. and resumed at 11.05 a.m.
Top
Share