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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND INNOVATION debate -
Tuesday, 28 Sep 2010

Employment Rights: Discussion with Migrant Rights Centre Ireland

We will now discuss the Right to Change employer campaign with representatives of Migrant Rights Centre Ireland, MRCI. I welcome the following: Mr. Bill Abom, deputy director; Ms Raluca Anacuta, policy officer; Mr. Rajat Bhatnagar, board member; and Mr. Leslie Codd, director of Codd Mushrooms. I thank all members of the delegation for their attendance.

I draw attention to the fact that, by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the joint committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Committee members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I ask Mr. Abom to address the committee. The MRCI has made a detailed written submission, for which we are thankful and the receipt of which will be recorded in the minutes. I, therefore, ask Mr. Abom to give a summary of the presentation. Members are more interested in asking detailed questions, which is how we explore issues. I hope we will be able to make substantial progress in that way.

Mr. Bill Abom

I thank the Chairman and members of the joint committee for inviting us. I understand the committee received a copy of our statement this morning and a copy of our policy position paper earlier in the year.

Migrant Rights Centre Ireland, MRCI, is a national organisation working to promote justice, empowerment and equality for migrant workers and their families in Ireland. For the past ten years it has been operating a wide variety of programmes in the areas of research, policy, community work and leadership development, as well as providing specialist information and advocacy services for more than 5,000 migrant workers on an annual basis. We liaise on an ongoing basis with Departments, trade unions and employer bodies. We also play a role in the consideration of migration policy issues at EU level and a wider international level.

There are approximately 25,000 migrant workers in the employment permit system in Ireland. The immigration status of individuals under the system is directly tied to their employment permit. There are two primary types of permit: the work permit and the green card. Approximately 75% of the total number are work permit holders. Work permit holders must complete at least five years under the permit system before they are entitled to apply for residency status in their own right which entitles them to work without a permit.

Work permit holders are tied to their employer, that is, they are only allowed to work for the employer stated on the permit and cannot freely change employer. They may apply to change employer within their employment sector or another eligible sector of employment, but there are significant obstacles in so doing. First, they must complete a minimum of 12 months with an employer and then submit a new application for a permit which entails returning their current permit, paying another permit fee of €1,000 and waiting a minimum of two months for the application to be processed, during which time they are not entitled to work. The MRCI experience is that workers risk losing their immigration status if they attempt to change employer in this way. It is also extremely difficult to find prospective employers willing to deal with the delays, costs and bureaucracy encountered under the permit system. These factors greatly hinder permit holders in attempting to change employer and create the conditions that trap workers in situations where they experience exploitation.

Between 2006 and 2009 MRCI assisted migrant workers in achieving settlements and awards of €1.3 million in unpaid wages and for other gross violations of their employment rights. Some 80% of these cases involved migrant workers with employment permits. Research published by MRCI in recent years involving domestic, agricultural and restaurant workers has identified the restriction of movement for permit holders as a primary factor in exploitation. Migrant workers claim that not being able to freely change employer puts them in a situation where they are powerless, wholly dependent on the employer for their permit and continuing legal immigration status. They commonly speak of how employers threaten them with revoking or not renewing their permit if they complain. One of MRCI's most serious cases involved an Indian national working in slave-like conditions in a private home for five years who recently received a Labour Court award of more than €240,000 in unpaid wages.

Problems experienced by employment permit holders have become the single largest issue raised by migrant workers who use our information centre. For example, a chef in Dublin who has been working in Ireland for four years recently came to us to explain that he was working a 70-hour week for €250, far below the minimum wage. A domestic worker in the midlands who cares for four children came to us to say she was working ten to 12 hour days for €5 per hour. A worker on a horse farm claimed that he had been made to work in excess of a 48-hour week for the same rate of pay for a 39-hour week and told that he could take it or go home. All of the individuals concerned are aware of their rights. However, they are reluctant to come forward and risk losing their immigration status until they are five years in the system.

We will now play an audio clip, an actual recording made by a migrant worker who is part of the employment permit system, to show the treatment experienced by workers.

The joint committee viewed an audio-visual presentation.

Mr. Bill Abom

Recent reports by the United Nations, the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe, the International Labour Organization and Amnesty International indicate that the practice of linking a worker to a single employer and limiting the options to change employer contributes to exposing migrant workers to greater risk of labour exploitation. A 2009 UN report on contemporary forms of slavery, including its causes and consequences, called for the abolition of immigration regimes that tie a visa to the sponsorship of a single employer. The EU Commission has also looked at establishing a framework for work permits and has indicated in its proposals that the work permit should not be limited to only one employer but should be related to the sector of specialisation.

The lack of freedom to change employer is also a major factor in workers becoming undocumented in Ireland. MRCI has assisted hundreds of workers who have become undocumented after falling out of the permit system. This occurred when workers left exploitative employment or when false promises were made by their employer that a permit would be renewed. This phenomenon has been acknowledged by the Government's undocumented workers scheme. However, the primary cause of workers becoming undocumented has still not been addressed.

MRCI believes that a better and fairer employment permit system would be one in which employment permits are granted to workers within a designated job category, with the right to freely change their employer. Freedom to change employer is not a new or radical idea as it existed previously under the working visa authorisation scheme in Ireland. What is required is a simple, minor administrative change so that when a worker decides to change employer he or she would simply register the change with the employment permit section. This basic change would provide significant benefits and does not require a complete overhaul of the employment permit system.

Importantly, this change would not undermine current Government control of the system and the prioritisation of EEA workers. The Government would continue to regulate the granting of initial permits or permits for occupations where gaps are determined and where labour market needs tests have been undertaken to ensure that local workers from within the European Union are not available to fill a job in the first instance. The benefits of such a change would give existing employment permit holders a chance to leave exploitative employment and report it to authorities. It would protect compliant employers and labour standards from being undermined by those who take advantage of those on permits.

It would reduce Government administration costs and delays by reducing the number of new work permit applications sent for redundancy or other changes. It would assist permit holders to get back into employment more quickly and reduce the total amount claimed in unemployment benefits, and would help employers to fill specific skill shortages more efficiently with workers already in the State possessing these skills. Mr. Codd is before the committee today and he can answer any questions the members of the committee may have in this respect.

We have been advocating for the right to change employers since the new Employment Permit Act came into effect in early 2007. We have written to and met on multiple occasions officials in the employment permit section and with no less than three Ministers of State for labour affairs, but there has been little or no movement on this issue. Members of our action groups, including our restaurant workers action group, our domestic workers action group and the migrants forum, continue to raise the right to change employer as a central issue, and in light of this MRCI began a campaign with the goal of seeking the right to change employer earlier this year.

Thousands of migrant workers and allies in the trade union movement, employers, the faith community and human rights organisations have joined us in this campaign. Hundreds and hundreds of letters have been written to the Minister, Deputy O'Keeffe, and the Minister of State, Deputy Calleary. I do not propose to take the committee through all the Government responses as they have been given to the committee but I draw the attention of the committee to one specific response. The Government has stated that if employees were allowed to move jobs freely within a sector it becomes more difficult to ensure that an employee's rights are respected. We believe this position is fundamentally flawed and is contrary to the evidence and experience of ourselves and the international rights organisations we have mentioned. When given options, workers are those who are best positioned to protect themselves from exploitation, not the State.

In conclusion, we have consulted widely with various political parties and worker and employer bodies such as ICTU, IBEC and Chambers Ireland. There is widespread consensus that the right to freely change employer makes good sense and is the right thing to do. In fact, we have just commissioned an Ipsos MRBI opinion poll on this issue and in the midst of the current economic downturn and the jobs crisis which we are experiencing, preliminary results show that 60% of the public believe that permit holders should have the right to change employer without condition. MRCI feels strongly that the permit system would be greatly improved for all stakeholders if this minor administrative change were made so that workers can freely change employer. Each day that passes without action from the Government enables this kind of exploitation and injustice to continue. I thank the committee for the opportunity and we will welcome any comments and questions.

I thank the delegates for coming before the committee this afternoon and for the presentation. The audio clip played gave us a far better sense of the isolation and sense of imprisonment, which borders on terror, that was experienced by a front line worker who experienced the difficulty that the delegation's campaign highlights. I commend the delegation in particular for the audio clip which was compelling.

Mr. Abom said there was a consensus among IBEC and the other social partners for change in regard to the work permit issue. Where does he believe the road block is? I assume at Government level there is unwillingness to change. Can he give us any idea why? I thought it was a basic right to be able to change employer at least within a sector, as Mr. Abom said. It gives some level of freedom and reasonableness to people who are here from foreign shores and will otherwise find themselves in dreadful conditions, such as those he has outlined.

I apologise for being late. I thank the delegation for its submission, of which I only heard the latter part.

The Government strategy for work permits, as I understand it, is that anyone who applies for a work permit has to show that he or she cannot employ an EU national. In the past three or four years the number of new work permits being issued has dropped tenfold. Is the Government saying that if it allows people who are in the country to move between employers it will bypass its ability to apply the test of whether the job cannot be filled by an EU national? Is the fact that an inherent part of the Government test is whether the job can be filled by an EU national the root of the resistance to the delegation's proposal? Does the delegation propose that mobility would only be possible within the time limit of an existing permit? Many permits apply only from year to year. The person could go to the end of the year and the new employer would then have to show that he could not fill that post with another EU national. The system is tied up with employers showing they cannot get an EU national. That is the core test. How will the potential conflict between the MRCI's approach and that core test be handled?

Mr. Bill Abom

Both questions are similar in terms of the major block that has existed until now. There are people already here, who have been recruited to Ireland and who have passed labour market needs tests. The number of permits issued to people outside of Ireland to come here has dropped, the peak in 2004 was 40,000 but now we have fallen to 3,000 permits per year. The Government has the right, to which we do not object, to issue permits to people outside the State who are coming to it. When people are here already, however, they have already gone through the tests, have paid the fees and should be allowed to move within a certain sector, such as catering or agriculture, even though most of these sectors have been removed from the current categories.

The most effective way to limit the number of permits, and to control the system, is for people outside the State not to come here and for those already here to have the right to move around. Even now, workers are allowed to change but they must go through a bureaucratic process and it is the bureaucracy of that process that keeps them in those positions. If they could move within their sectors, it would be much better.

The other issue mentioned was a two year permit. Typically, permits are given for two years and, upon renewal, for three years. During that period, they can move but when it comes to renewal, they would apply again for a permit. That allows for control to be exerted again.

We are dealing with those who are already here, and most of them live here with their families.

So the proposal is just to allow for movement up to the review date, not to extend the review date.

Mr. Bill Abom

Yes, that is when renewals occur and usually those renewals are with the same employer. There is no new labour market needs test at that stage.

If a person moves from one employer to another while he still has six months to run under the first employer, does he have six months with the second employer, who then must prove the test?

Mr. Bill Abom

That is correct. He must then apply for the renewal.

I welcome the presentation. I have heard most of it before in the three reports on the different sectors.

This is not a choice between a rights-based perspective and economic efficiency. There are good employers in sectors who are anxious to have a proper system. It is in everyone's interest economically. The presentation about the woman trying to secure basic rights, however, is an issue that should concern us all.

I have a long-standing interest in bonded labour. The international reports referred to are a terrible indictment of the contemporary world. There are hundreds of thousands of children in some of the more dramatically developing economies in Asia who are bonded child labour. In Ireland and within the European Union, however, we find that there are also clear breaches of rights. Those involved are also placed at risk, creating a whole new category of breaches of rights.

In my constituency office, where we deal with people who have had encounters with the GNIB, we have met people who are in that two month period between losing a work permit and getting a new one. They are completely at risk and the stupid thing is that in many cases avoiding detection is more likely to drive them into a form of unregulated economy where there is no registration at all. The proposals allow for a practical strategy, not where the person leaves the employer and disappears from sight, but for the right to be able to register within the same sector. That is manageable, fair and rights-based.

The Irish Congress of Trade Unions supports the proposal being looked at and it was part of the discussion within social partnership. Progress was reported on that three years ago but nothing has happened since. Under the 2007 legislation we could achieve what is fair by ministerial order without changing the legislation and I cannot understand why that is not being done. Have there been meetings with the responsible Minister and have there been indications of such changes that might meet this campaign objective? Where do we stand?

There is a distinction between those with existing permits and new permits. The test of new permits may well be where people take account of the new context of high unemployment and economic contraction in certain sectors. The existing permits, however, are tied up with existing rights and conditions do not comply with the ILO, the OSCE or best practice as outlined in the Council of Europe's study on this. That is why there are legal issues involved. It is not helpful to hinge the deprivation of rights, mobility, choice and discretion of existing rights upon a new economic circumstance; it is either dealt with now or not. The idea that someone who wishes to exit an exploitative relationship should have to wait two months in a dangerous and risky existence is unacceptable.

It is important that we express our sadness about this. This is a power relationship between a woman looking after children and two people using the State to threaten her, saying she will be sent in manacles to the airport and deported; it is an abusive relationship. The sooner we change this administrative bureaucracy, the better. The last public manifestation in support of this reasonable demand was a letter sent to the Department asking for a meeting. I would like to know what has happened with that.

I thank the delegates for the presentation. The audio clip brings home how difficult things can be for some people. The clip came from a private house, and restaurant and domestic and agricultural workers were all also mentioned.

I was curious about NERA. The Government has stated that NERA is there to support workers and ensure their rights are protected. Does MRCI have a role to play there? The campaign is ongoing but this is an immediate issue. Does NERA inspect work permits? I am aware it does it generally, but can it target that area or has MRCI had any discussions along those lines with it?

Mr. Bill Abom

To answer the last question regarding the National Employment Rights Authority, NERA, we are in constant discussions with NERA regarding enforcement. NERA would not look differently at someone who is on a permit from someone who is not on a permit. It would look to enforce workers' rights regardless. It responds to complaints or, more usually, to campaigns in certain sectors. It is our experience, and it would be shown by the complaints NERA receives, that most of the complaints it receives are from people who have already left. That is usually the standard. Once people can get out of an exploitative place or a place where they are being mistreated, it is then that they come forward to make the complaints.

I will give the Deputy an example. In the case of the woman who made that recording, it took us ten months. Her accommodation was provided by that employer and therefore we had to find accommodation for her. It took us ten months to find an alternative employer. As the Deputy can imagine, she works as a private home child care worker and many would not take someone on if they did not have references from the previous employer. She was in a very difficult position and it took that length of time just to apply for another permit and find another employer who would be willing to take the risk. The difficulties around coming forward can be illustrated through that woman coming forward, and it indicates the reason people do not come forward to NERA.

We have been in discussions with NERA regarding inspections in the private home and then targeting the inspections of the private home. We are waiting to hear whether the campaign in that respect will happen but we welcome it because the private home is one of the places affected.

On the question regarding our campaign and trying to meet directly with the Minister, the Minister, Deputy O'Keeffe, is the person with primary responsibility and the power to change this position. We have requested several meetings but as of yet we have not been given the opportunity to meet directly with the Minister, Deputy O'Keeffe. We had some discussions in March with the Minister of State for labour affairs, Deputy Dara Calleary, on the issue but we continue to raise awareness and to campaign to try to bring the position to light.

It seems that part of the fear, and I appreciate it, is that this proposal could undermine the current permit system. This proposal does nothing to undermine the regulation in the current system. It is to remove some of the bureaucracy around the processing to ensure that, realistically, people can change employer. We can still have the control the Government wants while protecting the rights of workers. That is one of the key points. Other than that we are a little confused as to the reason the Department has not considered the change to date.

I thank Mr. Abom and his colleagues for the presentation. In my constituency I have had first-hand experience of the work Migrant Rights Centre Ireland, MRCI, does and I have met a number of people from the different sectors involved.

I have several questions. In the current climate there is more competition. Is MRCI being approached more often by people? Has the number of people who find themselves in difficulty with employers increased?

I have had first-hand experience of some workers becoming undocumented and having to approach the Garda National Immigration Bureau, GNIB, and the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service, INIS. I am aware extra resources have gone into both of those areas but in my experience that has not improved circumstances from a general immigration point of view. Is MRCI finding that people are having more difficulty dealing with the GNIB and the INIS or has that position improved?

I thank Mr. Abom for the presentation. The audio clip was staggering. I hope what was contained in it is not going on to any great degree but to the extent that it is going on, we must condemn it. It is a disgrace and, as an Irish citizen, I was ashamed to hear it.

Mr. Abom's proposal is so sensible——

——it is difficult to understand where resistance to it is coming from and the reason for that resistance. I am aware there is resistance in that department about people from outside the country coming here.

A practical proposal is that we should now ask the Minister to come in here to explain his position. Other than that, it is obvious to me that we should support it, and I will do that on a personal level also.

Mr. Abom might answer Deputy Brady's question.

Mr. Bill Abom

In respect to the number of people coming forward with difficulties, I would say it has remained much the same throughout. If anything there has been a slight decrease but we have a number of people in cases of exploitation who remain trapped in the permit system and who are unwilling to come forward. There are others who lost their job and eventually left, and we have taken cases in respect of redress.

The reason we believe there has been a slight decrease is the economic position. People believe that even if they were to attempt to make a change, they have even fewer options to get out of those situations. While we are still seeing people it is a slightly decreased number.

We have talked to NERA about it in terms of its official statistics. It would confirm that it has received a slightly fewer number of complaints, but its representatives can tell the committee about that directly, based on the tightening market.

In respect of the GNIB, we continue to have difficulties in consistency of decisions, especially with individuals. To give members an example, if there is a delay in the processing of a permit an individual usually presents himself to a GNIB official for an extension or a grace period. We had a case recently that came in our door where an individual went in to apply for that grace period. It was rejected, and in the process he became undocumented because he was not given that grace period as the permit was being processed. I believe he was living somewhere in County Kildare. He was picked up by the Garda Síochána. He was put in jail for a few hours after which he received legal advice and was able to get out but there is a case pending against him for an immigration violation.

We continue to have problems but all of those problems could have been avoided had this person been able to continue with a permit or if there had not been any delays in the permit system. If we were able to get around that it would be helpful. We continue to see problems arise and we continue to work with the GNIB to try to iron out those problems. However, significant difficulties still remain.

Does Mr. Codd wish to add anything as an employer?

Mr. Leslie Codd

I speak from an employer's perspective. We employ approximately 100 people, about 20 of whom would be with work permits. Generally, what happens is that a friend or relation of one of my existing staff would approach their friend and ask them to approach me to see if we have any jobs vacant. When that person comes to us asking for that job, it is unattractive for an employer, to say the least, to take on that person and then have to wait two months. If members can imagine, the person who was made redundant or unemployed by their previous employer would be holding a permit with only that employer on it and would be only allowed work for that employer. For them to come to new employment they would have to pay €1,500 for that permit and then stay at home for two to three months until that permit is issued. That is a huge amount of money for them to raise. Second, it is unfair in terms of human rights and in terms of expecting an employer to wait that time until the permit comes through. It would be much more attractive for me not to employ such a person and to employ a person who is an EU citizen.

Ms Raluca Anacuta

I wish to add a few comments in response to Deputy Bruton's question. When the Employment Permits Act 2006 was brought in it had two main aims, one was to reflect the Government policy of meeting Irish labour needs through EU labour and the other was to protect people from non-EU member states who come here and who will be workers within this system. The Act provides that a foreign national, the employee, or an employer can apply for a work permit. A different set of rights is provided in the Act regardless of who makes the application. The Act further provides that if a foreign national makes an application for a work permit, he or she has the right to move within the employment sector. Unfortunately, this was never implemented. The Employment Permits Act fails to satisfy its second aim, namely, to protect workers within the system.

Thank you for your contribution. You probably know that Ireland has a long history of emigration and our people travelled seeking employment in the hope of achieving economic prosperity. It is imperative for us to treat those who come to our shores for the same reasons in accordance with rules that are fair and just. What we heard in the audio presentation today is downright shameful.

It is not right that employment permit holders should be tied to their employers like indentured servants in the roles of old or be bonded in any shape or form. While the rights of employers must also be protected it is perfectly reasonable that permit holders should be entitled to change employers within their employment sector at least. While it is obviously necessary to have accountable procedures in place, we should be aware of the difficulties facing immigrants in any country. They can be an easy target for the unscrupulous in Ireland as in any country, as is evidenced in that audio clip where people were prepared to take advantage of others and to exploit them. We need to protect against this. MRCI has drawn our attention to this fact and has launched a campaign in recent months on the lack of freedom to change employer. It is a major fact that workers are becoming undocumented in Ireland as a result of leaving exploitative employment. They are left in no man's land. Mr. Codd indicated that two months is the period in question during which they are easy prey for the unscrupulous and are not contributing to the economy. Accordingly, I support the call by the MRCI for a better and fairer employment permit system where permits are granted to workers within the designated job category with the right to freely change employer subject to any restrictions and safeguards deemed necessary and which the delegation has outlined.

On that unfortunate lady in the domestic situation, workers like her should be allowed to move with the permit and then make a complaint. If the complaint is upheld, such an employer should not be allowed to employ anyone else with an employment permit. What we saw in the clip is the equivalent of slave labour and it is not something to which we could subscribe. We will certainly contact the Minister on this. Senator Ryan has suggested that we contact the Minister to ask him to come to the committee to deal with the issues raised as they are important. Will the committee agree to a proposal whereby if somebody makes a complaint which is subsequently upheld the employer in the case should not ever again be allowed to employ anybody with an employment permit and that we should write to the Minister along those lines? Agreed.

I support fully what the Chairman and the committee members said. I also support work being done by the MRCI. On the issue of refugees, whether they be economic refugees or asylum seekers, many of whom have been here for a long time, what is the view of the delegates' organisation on the plight of those people or is there any advice that we, as public representatives, could give to people who find themselves in that situation?

Mr. Bill Abom

The Migrants Rights Centre Ireland is not a specialist organisation working with refugees or those seeking asylum here. If the Deputy's question is what is our position on people's right to work, we believe that individuals not having the freedom to be able to support themselves while they are here is not a good idea. People, even while they are waiting for their claims to be processed which can take six or seven years, should at least be able to provide for themselves and be able to work. However, beyond that, we are not an expert organisation in the area.

I thank the delegates, Mr. Abom, Ms Anacuta, Mr. Bhatnagar and Mr. Codd, for attending and assisting us in our deliberations today. I thank them for assisting us on this important issue, which we will certainly pursue.

I propose to briefly suspend the meeting to allow the delegates to vacate the room and the next delegates to take their seats. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Sitting suspended at 2.56 p.m. and resumed at 2.57 p.m.
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