Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action debate -
Thursday, 2 Mar 2023

Climate Action Plan 2023: Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine

An Cathaoirleach

The purpose of today's meeting is to discuss Climate Action Plan 2023. On behalf of the committee, I welcome the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy McConalogue, and his officials to the meeting.

As usual, I will read out the note on privilege, which is to remind the witnesses of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If a witness's statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, I will direct the witness to discontinue and it is imperative that any such direction is complied with.

Members of the committee are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members that they are only allowed to participate in the meeting if they are physically located in the Leinster House complex. In that regard, I ask members joining us online to confirm prior to making their contributions that they are indeed on the Leinster House campus.

I invite the Minister to make his opening statement.

Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Charlie McConalogue)

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members for the invitation to discuss the agriculture contribution to Climate Action Plan 2023. I am joined in the room by Mr. Bill Callanan, chief inspector at the Department, Ms Edwina Love, head of climate, and Mr. Liam Brennan, inspector of climate. We are joined online by Mr. Fergus Moore, senior inspector in forestry, and Mr. Philip Blackwell, agricultural senior inspector in land use.

At the outset, I wish to state my commitment and that of the agriculture sector to making the fullest contribution possible to achieving our national climate ambitions. Our great sector, which is the backbone of rural Ireland and ensures a balanced regional economy, is fully subscribed and committed to meeting our ambitious targets. The 51% cut in greenhouse gas emissions for Ireland is an economy-wide target and will need each of us, regardless of the sector in which we operate, to play our part.

Agriculture’s journey towards a greater level of sustainability is nothing new. In reality, our family farms have been at the vanguard of driving positive environmental change for years. Take for example, the huge level of interest farmers have shown in joining ACRES, our €1.5 million flagship agri-environmental scheme. We have had some 46,000 farmers apply to join, and just yesterday I was glad to be able to confirm that I have secured places for all of those successful applicants in the scheme.

Our farmers have a vested interest in ensuring a positive response to the climate challenge. Farmers and fishers operate at the coalface and see first-hand the impacts of climate change, and especially those extreme weather events. They are also citizens, and just like the rest of us want to secure a healthy and prosperous environment for their families and their livelihoods.

Climate change does not respect sectoral boundaries, and it does not respect industry boundaries. It is the challenge of our generation. It is a challenge that will only be solved by us all working together as a united force. The 25% sectoral emission ceiling set for the agricultural sector is a hugely challenging target and one that will see our sector change over the coming decade, but we are determined to get there. We were the very first sector to have a credible roadmap for achieving our climate ambitions. Scientific and technological solutions are evolving all the time as well.

In the climate action plan 2023, we have focused our measures on three key themes: first, inputs and additives; second, husbandry practices; and, third, diversification. In practical terms, the types of measures we are undertaking include reducing chemical nitrogen usage and changing fertiliser type, providing voluntary diversification options for farmers, while also improving the environmental dividend from our farmed land. Each of these measures is supported by a range of actions, setting out a viable pathway towards reaching our target. They require transformational change. To put it simply and bluntly, the target for agriculture is anything but business as usual, and will require transformational change.

I very recently brought forward legislation which will see the introduction of a national fertiliser database in the coming months. I would like to touch first on the inputs and additives strand. This will allow us to collect a range of information on fertiliser products as well as details of fertiliser economic operators and end users. It will also support farmers in reducing usage and engaging with industry-led sustainability measurement.

Nitrogen reduction is also supported through the continuation of aid for low-emission slurry spreading, LESS, equipment. More than 5,100 applications have been paid in full under the LESS measure of the targeted agricultural modernisation scheme, TAMS 2, since it was launched in 2015. That means that we have more than 5,000 low-emission slurry spreaders in the country from that standing start in 2015. From 2023, I have increased funding from 40% to 60% under the recently-launched new TAMS 3 investment scheme for low-emission slurry spreading machinery.

Alongside reducing the chemical fertiliser allowances for farmers, we are encouraging the adoption of protected urea, which will help to achieve ammonia emissions targets in addition to greenhouse gas emission reductions. These changes can have benefits for the environment as well as profitability at farm level too through a reduction in input costs.

To touch on husbandry practices, in 2022, I established the Food Vision 2030 dairy group, and the Food Vision 2030 beef and sheep groups. Their purpose was to advance the actions for the dairy, beef and sheep sectors identified in the Food Vision 2030 strategy, taking account of the requirement for the sectors to contribute to achieving our climate targets. This collaborative approach has been critical to securing engagement by the sector in our decarbonisation pathway. Both the beef and sheep and the dairy groups have recently submitted their final reports, which have been published. While the measures put forward have not been agreed by all members of the groups, both reports offer potential pathways to reducing emissions, with specific measures identified as well to contribute to that goal.

Both groups recognised the contribution that methane-mitigating breeding strategies can play in building carbon efficiency traits into our livestock population. I am keen to explore how we can, with the necessary commitment of all stakeholders, extend the work we have already done to improve the genetic profile of the herd in recent years. For example, I like to, and am committed to ensuring that Ireland becomes the first country in the world to genotype all livestock in the country. Farmers have not been afraid of innovation and I think the genotyping space is something, if we can deliver on it, that will be of huge benefit to the entire sector.

Reducing the slaughter age of cattle is another key recommendation of the Food Vision 2030 beef and sheep group. I have taken both these measures forward into the climate action plan. The new suckler carbon efficiency programme I introduced is designed to specifically improve the environmental sustainability and genetic merit of the suckler herd. We have an overall allocation in this of €256 million for the next five years.

On the third strand of diversification, some of the diversification opportunities that are available will include, for example, more tillage, anaerobic digestion, organics and forestry. In tillage, we will exploit the opportunity for import substitution of cereals and proteins, adding to the sustainability of Irish-produced feed. I have ensured that support is available in the current common agricultural policy, CAP, strategic plan through the protein aid scheme with an increase from €3 million to €7 million per annum. I am also supporting new tillage land conversion with the tillage incentive scheme and carbon sequestration by the tillage sector through a straw incorporation measure.

Delivery of a biomethane industry of scale will be important for agriculture, but also for industry and the decarbonisation of heat supply. We are currently commissioning consultants to develop a biomethane strategy by quarter 3 of this year. There is a fivefold increase in funding for organic farming to €256 million to triple the area of land that we currently farm organically to 7.5%.

The number of overall farmers farming organically has more than doubled to approximately 4,300. It is absolutely fair to say that there has been a really significant step change in attitude, culture, approach and appetite to going organic. We are reflecting that in funding. Organic farmers are also eligible for support of 60% in the organic capital investment scheme, OCIS, and have priority access to ACRES.

TAMS 3 also recently opened, consisting of ten different schemes which will support farmers in this journey too. An example of key innovation we have is the solar capital investment scheme, which will see the grant rate increased from 40% to 60%, with a €90,000 funding investment ceiling available to every family farm, separate to other schemes in TAMS. I believe this is a real opportunity for which, again, there will be a very significant uptake from farmers.

Overall, the CAP strategic plan has seen a significant increase in national co-funding, bringing the total to €10 billion, with €1.5 billion included for ACRES. In addition to the effective deployment of the CAP strategic plan funds, the changes needed will require other levers, including regulation, industry and market incentives. Such messages and incentives from industry will be just as important as Government initiatives.

I am going to touch briefly on land use, land use change and forestry, LULUCF. The decision to temporarily defer the inclusion of LULUCF in the sectoral emissions ceiling process is a good example of recognising when we need to pause and to take stock to enable better decisions to be made in the long run. It is important that we better understand what is happening with regard to our soils and our forest estate before setting targets as to what we will be achieving.

My priority is to ensure that we do not compromise action in this area, and continue to make progress in the meantime. The commitments made in climate action plan 2023 with respect to reduced management intensity on our soils and also in terms of afforestation are testament to this. These commitments are supported by my Department’s investment in the establishment of a national agricultural soil carbon observatory by supplying the scientific infrastructure to measure greenhouse gas fluxes from soils under agricultural management. This includes approximately 30 greenhouse gas, GHG, flux towers across a range of soil types over the country.

Last November as well, we proposed a €1.3 billion investment in Irish forestry over the next five years, with a comprehensive package of measures ensuring that premiums will increase by up to 66%.

We cannot achieve our ambitions of climate neutrality without the land use sector making changes over the decades ahead. To this end, we are also investing in our peat soils under agricultural management.

Change is not easy as all of the members here know, and does not happen overnight either. In addition to financial supports, farmers need to have access to the latest science, and the role of both Teagasc and the private advisory network in this regard cannot be underestimated either. Recently, we launched a nationwide Teagasc signpost farm network to showcase best practice in this regard, and work to showcase the direction of travel to farmers.

I want to mention briefly the commitments relating to the marine environment, reflected for the first time in a stand-alone chapter in the climate action plan.

My Department has committed to the delivery of a number of adaptation and mitigation actions which centre on four high-level aims. These are the national marine research and innovation strategy, or Ocean Knowledge 2030; research to address climate change issues such as rising sea levels, ocean acidification, fish distribution and abundance changes; increasing the resilience of our coastal infrastructure; and, finally, expanding our understanding of, and informing our behaviours towards, the marine environment and its resources.

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members for the opportunity to make a presentation. I look forward to taking questions on my role, as do my team, and giving as comprehensive an update as possible of the work that is under way in the Department and its direction of travel.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister for his opening statement. If he wants to bring in his officials, we will go into private session as we cannot have them speaking in public session as they were not invited.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

That is fine.

An Cathaoirleach

I invite members to indicate if they want to ask questions. As we have a fairly good turnout, I will be strict with the five-minute slots for members to ask questions and get answers. I encourage them not to delay in asking their questions and I will press the Minister on the time limits. If we have time, we will have a second and third round.

In the past few days, we have seen harrowing images of gorse fires burning across the landscape, particularly in the south and County Carlow. It is harrowing for members of the public to see this kind of destruction of the natural environment. It looks like there is a lot of uncontrolled burning. It brings to mind the practices we allow in this country with respect to managing the land. Are we going far enough? I have asked the Minister questions in the Dáil on the issue of hedgerows. We are losing approximately 3,000 km each year. They are being dug up and we see real butchery of our landscape. It seems that this practice is permitted by the environmental impact assessment, EIA, regulations, which allow anything under 500 m to be removed. The Minister indicated a willingness to examine this issue, which is a pressing one and a matter of serious concern to the public. I would like to hear a timeline for significant reform of our management of hedgerows. There is also a carbon sequestration element to this in respect of hedgerows, scrubland and peaty soils. Does the Minister have firm plans to revise the regulations around the EIA agriculture regulations, particularly with respect to hedgerows?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

This is an important issue and the direction of travel in terms of what we want to achieve here is to improve the biodiversity and environmental assets we have in our countryside. That is very much the objective of the various schemes we have in place. Under the agri-climate rural environment scheme, ACRES, and, in particular, the green low-carbon agri-environment scheme, GLAS, previously, we are seeing a significant amount of hedgerow being reinstated. Over many years, if not decades, we did not appreciate hedgerows as we do now. On the removal of hedgerows and work that is being undertaken, the Department is commencing a review of the regulations around what is permissible without first having sought approval. I hope to have a full assessment and the review completed over the next two to three months. There is no doubt that what we want to achieve is more hedgerows. That is very much the thrust of the vast majority of the farming community as well. We also want to see the quality of what we do have improved and also to have it managed every year in a way that is best suited to wildlife and birdlife. I am happy to engage further with the Cathaoirleach on this matter. I have asked my team to expedite the review of the current consent process.

An Cathaoirleach

I very much appreciate the Minister's answer. I do not think any of us wants to stand over a situation where hedgerows are being ripped out in front of our eyes. We know the consequences of that from the point of view of the environment, the protection of nature and carbon sequestration. The issue should be a very high priority for us, for political reasons if for no other reason.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I welcome the Minister. The committee understands the challenges of reaching the 25% emissions reduction target. Originally, the understanding was that 18% was suggested as a target through the measures outlined in Ag Climatise and different roadmaps. The target is now 25%, which we know will be challenging. At least agriculture has a roadmap in place and something to work from. Not every sector has a roadmap set out for it. One of the important new measures is the new ACRES. I congratulate the Minister on providing something I asked for in the Dáil, namely, the inclusion in the measure of all farmers who have applied to it. That is a very welcome measure which highlights the interest in the farming sector in getting involved in agri-environment schemes. I would like to see the co-operation areas examined further because they would lead to big improvements from an environmental and biodiversity of view. I have outlined to the Minister previously that large parts of west Cork are excluded from the co-operation areas. These include Mizen Head and even the area around Mount Gabriel, which we saw in flames over the weekend. In co-operation areas, payments of €10,000 or more are available. This is an area of conservation. I know time is short so we may have some back and forth. Can we look again at the co-operation areas? Is there any chance we could look at the science to have peripheral areas of west Cork included in ACRES? That would have many benefits.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

We engaged very closely with the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, and across Government Departments. The Deputy is right that co-operation measures are the way to go here. There are lots of steps we need to take on land management but also birdlife management and providing habitats that require farmers to work together. That is why the co-operation measures are in place. Working with other agencies, we assessed the land as regards what is included in ACRES. We need to consider how we can develop that in the time ahead. People are now signing up to their five-year programmes for ACRES and they are getting offers with regard to the commitments they have made. I will certainly keep this matter under review. We need to continue to work across the board to identify what the priorities and opportunities are and where we can work together to achieve those. I will be as flexible as I can but the five-year commitments currently being provided are based on the existing platform.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Regarding the NPWS, there is a dearth of data there. There are gaps in data and places that have not been assessed in terms of breeding species habitats. That needs to be addressed because if we have more farmers in the co-operation areas and proper results-based agri-environment schemes, we will see results.

On feed imports, more than 5 million tonnes of feed was imported in 2018. The Minister mentioned that he wanted to address this matter by having more homegrown feed. We are importing products such as soya, maize, palm kernel, etc.

What can be done to reduce the reliance on imported feed?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

We will do it by growing more domestically and trying to take steps that will improve that. We have great capacity to do tillage well and produce grain productively. Currently, we import approximately two thirds of our total feed requirement for human and animal feed purposes. Over the past ten or 15 years, we have seen a decline as well in our tillage sector in the area under tillage. We want to reverse that. Last year, particularly after the invasion of Ukraine and the uncertainty around supply chains, I introduced the tillage support scheme, which paid €400 a hectare for each new additional hectare of tillage that was done in 2022. That led to the most significant jump we have seen for many years - almost a 7% increase in area under tillage. That is in place again now for this year. One of our targets in the climate action plan is to grow the area under tillage. It makes sense from a number of fronts to put in place-----

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I only have a couple of seconds left, so I will ask my last question. If reductions are achieved from growing our own feed as opposed to importing, those emissions reductions need to go towards farming and that target.

On the conversation around the national herd and this obsession with it, I am regularly contacted by farmers who are seriously concerned and they mention figures of 30%. They ask what the Government is doing by cutting the herd by 30%. I have to allay their fears one by one that this is not our intention. We are not cutting the herd by 30%; we are not reducing the herd. Can the Minister allay those fears? There are measures set out in the climate action plan on how to reduce emissions in agriculture. Can he allay the fears of those farmers that it is not our intention to cull herds or reduce the herd by 30%? That is a message we need to get out to our rural communities.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

Absolutely. I can indeed. The Deputy is correct. Particularly around the setting of the climate targets and what the figure would be for agriculture, there was a sense out there among some that what we were talking about was a percentage reduction in food production or a percentage reduction in our herd. That is not what we want to do. We want to cut and reduce our emissions profile. Our 25% target is to reduce emissions from the food we produce and that is doable. We also need to continue to produce food and play a role domestically and internationally. We need more food internationally. It is getting harder to produce precisely because of the climate challenge in more climate-vulnerable parts of the world. We witnessed it across southern Europe last year in the massive challenge created by the drought that came as far as our own south coast. Thankfully, we were not affected in the way the rest of Europe was. We will continue to be productive but reduce the emissions footprint of how we do it. Our 25% target relates to emissions reduction, not food or stock reduction.

Deputy Richard Bruton

I congratulate the Minister. I see from the latest report on the climate plan that his Department has delivered 87% of its targets, which puts it the highest of the Departments that are actively engaged in climate mitigation. However, we are here to scrutinise progress rather than just congratulate the Minister. A few targets have been held up and some of them are fairly important. I would be interested to know whether the lost time can be made up. There are targets for these. One is the biodigestion pilot and the second is the work on early finishing – I know there is early slaughter. The first strategy was delayed, but I think that has been published since. Has it?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

Yes.

Deputy Richard Bruton

There is then one on restoring 60 ha of blanket bog and the land map. There was another one on publishing measures to restore a further 116 ha of blanket bog. What is the significance of these delays? The central context for this whether the Minister believes we are on track to hit the 2025 target, which is down to 20 tonnes from agriculture. Perhaps I will come back to land use after that question.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

Perfect. I respect the Deputy’s acknowledgement of the ongoing work. He played a massive role in setting this course when he was Minister responsible for our initial climate action plan and putting in place metrics as to how that would be monitored.

On the biodigestion and anaerobic digestion, our target is that by 2030, 10% of all of our national gas requirement will be produced at farm level through anaerobic digestion. We currently have a strategy that we will publish by quarter 3 this year. On how we step that out at national level, we will shortly appoint the consultants who will oversee that strategy.

On funding in place, we have a commitment in the national development plan for approximately €25 million initially towards that. In addition, we have ongoing funding each year at the moment as well from the carbon taxes, some of which we have invested in a project in Cork on the Shinagh research farm. At the moment, we want to complete the strategy so we know exactly the approach we will take and then invest heavily and encourage investment to back that strategy up.

On early slaughter, we are making progress. We are looking further at how we can accelerate that. Under the beef data and genomics programme and the new beef suckler scheme, which we will launch in the next month or so, the metrics are being put in place to ensure we can achieve-----

Deputy Richard Bruton

I apologise. I am very restricted on time. In a nutshell, can we get back on track on these delayed ones? Are we still on track to deliver the 2025 target? Then I want to ask another question.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

Yes, we can. It will be a challenge but every effort we are making is to deliver on the 2025 target. Certainly, the 2025 target is as a significant a challenge as the 2030 one given the timescale involved. We are making progress. Now that we have set the targets, our whole emphasis is delivery on them.

Deputy Richard Bruton

Turning to wider interests, how far has the Department progressed in putting together a circular strategy for the whole food sector that would look at food waste, packaging and all of the other elements? It is a commitment in the Circular Economy and Miscellaneous Provisions Act.

Where is the Department on carbon farming? That is the most significant way of creating an income stream for farmers that is not just from their excellent food production, but also from their excellent environmental management.

Finally, where are we on land use? The 50% cut in land use emissions could have a huge washback on the other sectors if it proves to be as daunting as it now appears. Where are we on thinking about land use targets?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

On the circular economy and minimising waste, we have the Food Vision 2030 strategy, which sets out an overview of that. I will come back to the Deputy specifically with an update on his question.

On carbon farming, we see great potential. At the moment, at European level, we do not have capacity to do carbon farming or have payment specifically for it. There is not a European-wide approach to that. That is being developed at the moment. We expect that to conclude over the next number of months. We will then be able to work off that to put a carbon farming mechanism and system in place. In addition, we are investing heavily through Teagasc, for example, to develop the tools to quantify how we capture carbon and measure it. We have to be able to measure it accurately to then monetise and pay for it. That work is ongoing at the moment.

Deputy Richard Bruton

Does it take much of the confrontation out of the debate about agriculture and environmental impact because an income stream would come from both?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

It certainly would. We have to make sure farmers and the work they are doing are at the centre of that income stream as well.

On the land use strategy, we just completely part 1 of the land use strategy and we are now commencing the second part of it. We have much more assessment to do as well in fully quantifying what is happening in our land. That is the whole objective behind the strategy. That will be central to defining and crystallising the emissions reduction targets within that as well. It is progressing. We just completed phase 1 and phase 2 is now commencing.

Senator Lynn Boylan

In the climate action plan progress report and high impact measures the Minister referred to the fact that in regard to grazing, feed additives have yet to be evaluated. As we know, feed additives only work if the animal is in the shed and Ireland's beef and dairy industry is based on the fact that livestock is pasture-fed. If we are still evaluating that and it still has to go through European Food Safety Authority evaluation what is the timeline on it? What are the expected reductions in emissions? Have we the time to wait, or to rely so heavily on that method?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

We have to be able to make sure that the measures we put in place are going to count and achieve the reductions that we want them to. We want them to be validated by the EPA. Already there are a number of feed additives on the European market. Over the past year five different additives have been tested. One has been approved in the past few months. That shows that up to 30% can be achieved in housed systems.

Senator Lynn Boylan

Is that through grazing or feed additives?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

That is through a feed supplement. So far it has been tested mostly in housed systems. Most countries have fully housed systems where we only house animals for about four or five months a year. Teagasc is doing a great deal of work on testing and validating also.

Senator Lynn Boylan

How long will it take the European Food Safety Authority to do the evaluation on the grazing additives?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I cannot give an answer to that question because technological innovation and work on this are happening at the moment. Ideally we would like to see it explore the potential for slow release feed boluses to be able to work in grazing situations, where it is not necessarily-----

Senator Lynn Boylan

Do we have a timeline for that?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

We do not. Because of that we have not plugged in any part of our targets from grazing.

Senator Lynn Boylan

In the climate action plan progress report that is stated to be high impact measure that it is completed.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

Yes and it is to be delivered over the decade but so far what we have plugged in is the delivery piece that we can manage from what we know, which is in the housed systems-----

Senator Lynn Boylan

Okay so we do not know yet.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

-----because animals are housed for four or fives months a year. We are also expediting the research around the grass-based capacity.

Senator Lynn Boylan

That is fine. The second question is on anaerobic digestion. The pilot in the climate action progress report found it suffered repeatedly from supply chain issues. I assume those supply chain issues relate to getting such things as the machinery, due to the war and the lag after Covid-19. Will the Minister provide an update on the anaerobic digestion strategy, we are on that and when it is likely to be achieved?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

It is to be completed by quarter 3 this year. We launched a tender for the professional expertise to be able to do the strategy. We will conclude that shortly, in the next couple of weeks. The target for the delivery date is quarter 3 for our strategy. That will inform how we step out the development.

Senator Lynn Boylan

The last question relates to powdered milk. The Government encourages Irish mothers and women living in Ireland to feed their children by breast-feeding. That is a high priority and financial resources have been put into that. How do we square that with the fact that Ireland increasingly is becoming a large supplier of powdered milk to the global south and to China? They do not have the same protections around advertising there. Advertising powdered milk below follow-on formula is banned here so it cannot even be advertised. That is not the situation in the countries to which Ireland exports powdered milk. Given the impact dairy has on our carbon emissions, how is that circle squared? Is the Minister comfortable with the fact they we promote powdered milk to newborns in the global south?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

Powdered milk is an important food domestically as well as internationally. Obviously Government policy is to promote-----

Senator Lynn Boylan

Has the Minister any concerns about how it is marketed to mothers in the countries where we are promoting powdered milk for newborns?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

It is important that everything is marketed responsibly everywhere. Obviously we can only control what we do in our country but what we do here in our country is produce the safest, best quality and most nutritious dairy products, including infant formula products as well. That is why our country's raw milk is so sought after as a key ingredient for that. That is part of the diet in our own country and in other countries. How that is managed and what national policy is in different countries is a matter for the countries to which it is going. From our point of view, from an agriculture and food point of view it is about producing product which is exceptionally safe, exceptionally nutritious and sustainable. We do that very well.

Senator Lynn Boylan

From a personal point of view, does the Minister agree with the ban on promoting powdered milk for newborns in Ireland? Does the Minister agree with that ban?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I am not getting into that space today. I am going to focus on the climate aspect.

(Interruptions).

Senator Lynn Boylan

I am just asking a question.

Senator Róisín Garvey

Time is up.

Senator Lynn Boylan

Senator Garvey is not even a member of the committee and that is the Cathaoirleach's responsibility.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

We have an exceptional dairy industry and an exceptionally safe and sustainable one. That is why all of our products are preferred products around the world, whether that be cheese, milk or indeed the milk as a key ingredient of infant formula.

An Cathaoirleach (Deputy Brian Leddin)

I thank the Minister and call Deputy Dooley.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I thank the Minister and his officials. In particular I welcome Ms Edwina Love who was an official in this House for a considerable period of time. She has been doing amazing work in the Department. I thank the Minister for his statement. In passing, I recognise the Sinn Féin position in wanting to reduce the marketability of the dairy sector in Ireland and it expects the Minister to decide how China deals with its expectant mothers. That is a new departure but it is worth noting.

On the overall-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy Timmy Dooley

You cannot have it both ways, with respect.

Deputy Réada Cronin

You can actually, really. We have a point of view.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I will give the floor. This is wonderful. I will cede my time to Deputy Cronin, she is doing really well here - keep going-----

(Interruptions).

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Cronin-----

Deputy Timmy Dooley

-----in terms of her explanation of what the capacity of Sinn Féin is to have two different positions on the same issue.

Deputy Réada Cronin

They are not two different positions, you can ask questions. This is ridiculous.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

I have a question.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I want to focus my attention on a couple of issues. I thank the Minister for what he has done on expanding the scale of the ACRE scheme to allow all farmers, some 46,000 of them who sought to be part of it, to participate versus the initial budgeted position of about 30,000. That is welcome to farmers who want to farm sustainably, raise their families and have a meaningful impact and live in a sustainable way. I thank the Minister for making that happen.

There are two issues that matter to me in County Clare from an agricultural perspective. The Burren Life project with which the Minister is familiar and I am sure Senator Garvey will expand on it when she gets an opportunity, involves a group of farmers who came together and devised a scheme which was given the imprimatur of the Department at the time and was recognised by Europe as a really sustainable model. They bought into it. Their actions and the plan they put in place have ensured that not only is farming a sustainable practice is such an iconic landscape but the model they put in place has ensured that the area is managed in such a careful way that is in sympathy with the environment. It respects the environment in such an important way and has ensured that they have a viable income. The change in the new scheme has, in my view and in the view of the farmers in the region, a detrimental impact. It takes a lot from a small number, and gives a little to many others. The benefit to those who will benefit is meaningless. Those that will lose, will lose heavily. It will take from the actions they have put in place. It will undermine the process that is there. It has the potential to be really damaging to the overall environment of the Burren region, which is a unique landscape.

An Cathaoirleach

I will remind Deputy Dooley of the time.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I will conclude on this. A similar issue exists in regard to the hen harrier in the area where I live, in east Clare. I am not a beneficiary of it, just to put it on the record. However, many farmers are. The idea behind putting in place a specific scheme for the hen harrier was to ensure that farmers farmed in a way that was in sympathy with nature and protected a rare species.

It seems to me that we are no longer rewarding them any more for it. I accept what the Minister said about broadening but if you negatively affect those who have come to depend on that line item of income, it sends the wrong signal. I am hopeful the departmental officials will find a way to work with the Minister and all of us to ensure those schemes are protected.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I know the Senator has been advocating very strongly regarding ACRES. The Burren life project and the hen harrier project are two exceptional examples of how farmers can work together to make a real impact. Both schemes were established under the European Innovation Partnership, EIP, pilot project funding. The idea behind EIPs is that you road-test something, which normally necessitates more funding. It takes a lot of application, time and commitment on the part of farmers to do that. It then involves seeing how you can scale it more broadly and learn from that. That is what we are doing with regard to the Burren life project in terms of scaling that. This means that many more farmers will benefit from that and those who benefit from it will see increased payments. However, there is an issue regarding some of those in the initial EIP and who would have significant annual payments. Most who were involved in the initial EIP will see their payments increase but a minority could see a significant decrease, something Senator Dooley, as well as Senator Garvey and other Members from the county, brought to my attention. It is something I will continue to consider. Our key objective has been to work hard and my team and the Department have worked extremely hard to ensure we can accommodate all 46,000 applicants. We budgeted for 30,000. Thankfully, this week, we have been able to indicate that we will be able to approve all 46,000 applications, which is a big step forward. It means that all those people will be able to participate in ACRES this year and contribute to the environmental work we are doing and receive a payment but I will reflect further on the point raised by Senator Dooley.

Senator Timmy Dooley

I really appreciate that.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

The very term "diversification" is about moving from one type of farming to another. You can do that in two ways. One is incentivising, while the other is supporting people to exit carbon-intensive farming. We all know that dairy farming is more carbon-intensive, certainly the larger dairy farms. Some, but not all, dairy farmers want to exit in order that they can move into another type of farming. When will the terms of the voluntary exit scheme for dairy farmers be published and when does the Minister expect this scheme to be up and running?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

The Senator is aware I set up the beef and sheep food division group, as well as the dairy food division group. One of the recommendations of the dairy food division group was that we should explore and look to take forward the option of a voluntary dairy reduction scheme. Our target is to have that clarified by the end of this year. I indicated a month or so ago that 2022 would be a reference year for any voluntary reduction scheme that we step out, to give as much clarity as possible to those who might be considering it and to make sure there are no unintended consequences from the fact that we are saying that we are looking at stepping out a voluntary reduction scheme whereby some might increase rather than decrease under a voluntary reduction scheme. Therefore, I laid down 2022 as a marker in that regard. I will engage further with stakeholders regarding to how we step that out. By the third quarter of this year, we will have this clarified and-----

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

And the scheme will be up and running?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

We expect next year to be the follow-through on that.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

So it will be by the start of 2024.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

That is my intention, pending engagement with stakeholders in the mean time.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

The second issue I wish to raise is drainage. In particular, I wish to understand what the policy rationale is for allowing works under the environmental impact assessment regulations in respect of agriculture without the requirement for screening or permission for up to 15 ha of agricultural land, that is, drainage without any form of permission. Is there a policy rationale and if so, can we see it?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

That has been the established position. I am reviewing it and the policy rationale for it and the appropriate way to do it will be fully considered as part of that. Thresholds have been in place for many years regarding a number of actions. It is always your objective to make them proportionate and balanced regarding farmers' capacity to be able to farm in a way they normally do and would like to do and balancing that with proportionate checks and balances from an environmental perspective. It is being reviewed and will be given definite consideration.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

While we are on that topic, the conversion of 5 ha of semi-natural land to agricultural land also does not need permission at the moment. Is this also being reviewed?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

We are reviewing all of the thresholds.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

Does the Minister have a timeline?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I expect it to be over the next short number of months. The work is commencing and a full assessment will be made. I want to expedite the conclusion in terms of where we go with it.

An Cathaoirleach

My reading of it is that we are expecting some announcements around April or May.

Deputy Réada Cronin

I thank the Minister for his statement. I did feel a bit worried when I read his statement last night. Ireland is an island in the middle of a radically changing climate world. There was a touch of the "keep calm and carry on" about it. Under diversification, the Minister talks about tillage and how we are exploiting the opportunity for import substitution of cereals and proteins. While that might spare our blushes, I remember seeing in several media outlets that rather than going to the Horn of Africa, some of the first ships that came from Ukraine were coming to Ireland to feed our cows, which was a bit embarrassing.

How is the Minister going to balance market growth in China with how we are going to reduce our emissions there? While we like to consider ourselves a food island, how does the Minister feel about the fact that we import 80% of our food? Given the weather "weirding" in some of the countries from which we import, perhaps we should have some diversification around that as well.

Why did rewilding not feature in the Minister's statement? Plenty of farmers with whom I have spoken would interested in rewilding if there were financial incentives. How many climate scientists work in the Department and what input did they have into his statement?

An Cathaoirleach (Deputy Brian Leddin)

There are a lot of questions there.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

There are about 250 agricultural inspectors in that sphere.

Deputy Réada Cronin

What about climate scientists?

An Cathaoirleach (Deputy Brian Leddin)

If we are to bring in the officials, we will go into private session.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

We can-----

Deputy Réada Cronin

Could the Minister answer as I do not want the meeting to go into private session?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

There are about 250 people in the space. In terms of climate scientists, I do not have the exact figure to hand but I can get it for Deputy Cronin. The Deputy said the Government's approach is to keep calm and carry on. We will certainly keep calm but we will get on with the work, contrary to the Sinn Féin approach, which is very much keep the head down and hope nobody notices. If that fails, Sinn Féin's consistent policy is what the Deputy referred to earlier on, which is hold two positions at the one time. That is the one thing that is consistent about Sinn Féin. Whenever I go to the Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine, I get a totally different Sinn Féin to the one I get here today.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

At least the Deputy is finding-----

Senator Lynn Boylan

The Minister tends to get very personal when he is in committee and in the Chamber. We just want him to answer questions.

An Cathaoirleach (Deputy Brian Leddin)

We will let the Minister speak.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

If Senator Boylan gives it she has to be able to take it.

Senator Lynn Boylan

That is all we are doing. We are just asking the Minister to answer questions. We are not personalising this in terms of the Minister's political party. We have not mentioned the Minister's political party.

Deputy Réada Cronin

This has not happened at any other time, or at any other committee meeting we have had.

An Cathaoirleach

Let the Minister answer.

Senator Lynn Boylan

We have not mentioned the Minister's political party once. The Minister should grow up.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Boylan can come in again.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

It is fair to draw a contrast. Deputy Cronin referred to holding two positions at the one time, and that is a fair reflection.

Deputy Réada Cronin

I did not; I said that in this committee we are holding the position, and it is not just our position.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

And on another committee, a different position.

Deputy Réada Cronin

UNICEF also holds the position that Ireland has a precarious position on exporting milk products to other nations. There is a question of ethics around breastfeeding and making countries more reliant on milk imports when we should be encouraging people to breastfeed. If the position we have here-----

(Interruptions).

An Cathaoirleach

Sorry, it is Deputy Cronin's slot. Deputy Cronin may continue.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

On this being a food island, we export 90% of what we produce. We have tremendous industries here and sectors in relation to lamb, beef and dairy production. We are very strong, but need to get stronger, in domestic tillage production. We cover a lot of our own pig requirements as well. Particularly in the horticulture and fruit sector, we have a real opportunity to produce more of our national needs. In some items, we do but in other items, we do not. That is certainly something we want to focus more on.

Deputy Réada Cronin

Can the Minister say why rewilding did not feature in his statement?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

For example, if you take the new agri-climate rural environment scheme, ACRES, we have significant measures included there, along the lines of riparian zones, where they are left alone to act as riparian zones, and also to act as a space for nature within that. Across the board, we have a range of measures, which are about incorporating space for nature, and space for improving and addressing what has been a biodiversity decline that has happened over a generation, and enabling farmers to step that out. Farmers are up for it, and ACRES reflects that.

Deputy Réada Cronin

Is the Minister planning to increase the financial incentive for farmers to rewild?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

What we want to do is to provide a suite of options, which are comprehensive and address different needs. If the Deputy looks at the agri-climate rural environment scheme, ACRES, and the various measures in place there, whether it is a riparian zone, low-input, permanent pasture, which is scored now and results-based or tree and hedge planting, there is a whole range of options in place which contribute to this objective. When we look at the appetite among farmers and the over-subscription, which, thankfully, we have been able to fulfil, it shows the potential that is there to make a real impact.

Deputy Réada Cronin

On the climate scientists-----

An Cathaoirleach

I will ask Deputy Cronin to be very brief.

Deputy Réada Cronin

There were a lot of interruptions, a Cathaoirligh, in fairness.

The Minister said that he was going to get back to me on the climate scientists the Department has. Is there any plan to recruit more climate scientists into the Minister's Department? It is a very important Department in the context of the challenges we face regarding climate change.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

We are carrying out ongoing recruitment to meet our needs. It is a big priority for the Department to make sure we are operating at full capacity in this space. On the various professions needed for that, we are recruiting ecologists, as one example. On the forestry programme, there is very significant and ongoing recruitment there, and likewise, where it is needed across the Department too.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister and Deputy Cronin. As we go forward, I will allow a back-and-forth between the member whose slot it is. It was Deputy Cronin slot just now, and there was back-and-forth between the Deputy and the Minister. If anybody comes in and it is not their slot, I will consider that disorderly conduct. I ask members not to interrupt colleagues when they are asking questions of the Minister. I will move on to Deputy Jennifer Whitmore.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

I thank the Minister for coming in today. It is really worthwhile having him in as there are a lot of questions we could ask and engage on. I would like to focus on the issue of controlled burning. The Climate Change Advisory Council was reported yesterday as saying that 1.9 million tonnes of carbon dioxide are released annually in Ireland through wildfires and wildfire practices. Some of those would be illegal, and some would be legal. Prior to yesterday, these fires were legal. My understanding is that they can be carried out as long as a written burning plan has been done, and the landholders have engaged with various local authorities.

Annually, we hear the outcry from the public. People are very concerned about these fires and the spread of these fires. The discussion is usually around biodiversity, which is usually why we have the closed season for them, but in fact these fires are devastating for many reasons. We have air and water pollution issues, public health and safety issues, and then when they are out of control, we are putting our fire officers' lives at risk in dealing with them. Of course, on the climate issue, there are the emissions from them.

Does the Minister's Department monitor the areas of controlled burning that happens, and not necessary the illegal burning? Does the Department have an eye over all controlled burning that happens in the country, and does it quantify the emissions from those fires? Does the Minister think that in light of the climate targets that have been set, and the need for us to change our practices, and in some instances agricultural practice, that it is now time to examine whether or not these controlled burns should be a part of regular agricultural land practices?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I thank Deputy Whitmore. From 1 March to 1 September, burning is illegal. Outside of that window, it is possible to apply and get a permit for it. I will continue to assess all advice on this. Where controlled burning is taking place, there has to be an application to the local authority, and full engagement and co-operation. It has to be approved. The balance to be struck then is in relation to what is appropriate, and what the benefit is or otherwise. The challenge is that without controlled burning, you could have a potentially higher risk of burning at the height of summer, for example, which you cannot control, and the risk around that. My understanding is that it can provide for habitat renewal, which can be important for bird life.

I will be fully advised by those with the understanding and expertise in this space. One thing I will say is that it is now illegal from 1 March to 1 September. We will be taking a no-nonsense approach to this, and monitoring it very closely. There are fines, prosecutions, and laws in place around it. Agricultural payments will not be paid to offenders; they will be fined and these payments made unavailable. It is something we take seriously, but we will continue to take advice from those who understand it better than me on its efficacy.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

Does the Minister think it is time to review it? There are other mechanisms to deal with it. I wonder whether there has been enough oversight of the permits and the monitoring of them?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I procured a report, which was published, on alternatives to burning. We have to look at all options, and ensure we are adopting the most appropriate one.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

Are the emissions from those fires incorporated into and accounted for in the Department's targets?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I do not know. I can come back to the Deputy with an answer.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

On the basic farm payment, I know that when illegal burning occurs, it can be withheld, but it is only withheld for one year. The reality is that if you burn your land, it takes many years for it to recover and get back to full environmental health. Has the Minister considered extending that fine, so that it is not just for a single year, and that the fine is withheld until the land has recovered?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

The deduction in eligibility for agricultural payments stems from the fact that it is not agricultural land, and it is not able to be farmed if it has been burned. That is the reason it is deducted from the payments. The actual fines outside of that and the prosecution, if it was burned outside of when it was permitted and without licence, is a separate system. European payments, to be clear, are based on the Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, and on whether or not the land is agricultural land. That is what determines its eligibility.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

The basic farm payment is not an environmental measure. It is purely a question of whether you farm it, or not.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

There are different criteria in terms of whether it is in basic agricultural condition, or good agricultural condition. It is focused on whether it is farming land or not. For example, if it is not being farmed, and if there is no evidence of that or of it being suitable for that, there is no farm payment on it.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

I thank the Minister.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

There are different criteria relating to basic agricultural condition and good agricultural condition. It is focused on whether it is farming land or not. For example, if it is not being farmed, there is no evidence of that or it is not suitable for that, there is no farm payment for it.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

I thank the Minister.

An Cathaoirleach

I believe Senator Higgins is joining us from her office.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

It will be good to get the figures for emissions from burning. I think they certainly should be reflected. It is clear that new measures are needed related to that. I am surprised that it did not seem to be addressed in the Food Vision 2030 report, not on dairy, but on beef and sheep. That would include addressing the use of uplands in this particular way. We know there are other mechanisms that can be used, such as grubbing gorse.

I have three questions which have been touched on before. I was not planning to address the first matter but it is important to say that there is a clear climate-related reason for raising issues such as the import of tillage, forage and fodder crops and the export of powdered milk. Ireland is part of the global move to tackle climate change. Some 80% of agricultural land is used for livestock, which produces only 20% of the world's calories and nutrition. Ireland needs to look at that responsibly. At a time of food crisis globally, Ireland contributing to the pressure on global land being used for fodder rather than food, with a higher nutrition output, seems to be deeply irresponsible. We are also responsible for 13% of infant formula worldwide. It is a very high figure which is extremely relevant to policies if we have a Government that claims that it cares about women's and children's health internationally. It contradicts those policies and we are subsidising it with the subsidy system that we have. It is worth answering. Rather than throwing remarks at other parties, I ask the Government to really look at how it is addressing that contradiction and how we can be morally consistent.

It is also important that we look at this idea that we are asking for a huge change to the herd. There has been a huge change. From 2010 to 2020, in one decade, we saw a 46% increase in the dairy herd, which is massive. The majority of the increase that we are seeing is happening on a tiny fraction of farms. I think just 1,500 farms were identified in the recent report as being responsible for 50% of the increase. We have had a massive change in that expansion. Surely we should aim for a similar reduction by pulling back by 50% and looking at how that would be done? That is not necessarily about a cull but about looking at the intensification of breeding. What measures are there?

An Cathaoirleach

I ask Senator Higgins to please be mindful of her time.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

My last point is on land use, land-use change and forestry, LULUCF. Is the Minister confident that the LULUCF emissions will not go over the 20 megatonnes, which is the only remaining space in the carbon budget to 2025? We have not figured out the reductions but we have a limited window in which they have to take place and there are only 20 megatonnes left.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I thank Senator Higgins. She made the point about tillage. One of our key objectives is to improve and increase the area under tillage nationally. That makes a lot of sense.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

Is there a plan for a Food Vision 2030 tillage report? I know that has been called for. We had one on beef and dairy. Will there be a Food Vision 2030 report on horticulture?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I have been engaging with farm representative organisations about how we can work together on that. I am considering it because there is great potential. We thankfully made good progress last year and we want to continue to support it. We discussed the infant formula previously. The key overall point, regardless of which product we are talking about, is the pre-eminence of the Irish grass-based dairy production system and how it is sought after for all products because of its quality. Likewise, we see that Irish dairy milk is a highly sought after core ingredient for infant formula.

We saw expansion of the herd with the removal of quotas in 2014. That led to an increase in emissions. Our capacity to produce dairy had been significantly constrained since 1984, when quotas first came in. We produce dairy well in this country with our grass-based production system and have high-quality milk. The reason that Kerrygold butter is so popular around the world is that it is a different, grass-based product and that is based on the grass-----

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

With respect, the quality of different dairy products is not really my question. My question is about nutrition and food calories. It is not about one dairy product versus another dairy product but the amount that is given over to dairy and livestock overall. The facts add up that it does not deliver the world nutrition as different use of agricultural land would.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask the Senator to let the Minister answer.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

That is a broader policy question. Meat proteins and milk proteins are important parts of the human diet for good nutrition and will continue to be so. Looking at how we produce that and the expertise and natural capacity we have, we are world-leading with regard to the sustainability and quality of the product. That is why it is so sought after. We should continue to do that because it will continue to be in demand as part of a good, nutritious diet for people. We as a country-----

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

Some 80% of all agricultural land-----

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Higgins is out of time.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

That is a broader policy question.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

I would like my other questions to be answered. I have simply heard a number of times how wonderful Irish dairy is rather than getting my questions answered.

An Cathaoirleach

If the Senator stops interrupting, the Minister might have a chance to answer.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

Regarding whether we should decrease the herd, we are not looking to reduce our food production. We are looking to reduce the emissions footprint. The parallel I would make is to 1998 to 2011. We just discussed the removal of dairy quotas and its impact. From 1998 to 2011, Irish farmers and the agricultural sector reduced their emissions footprint by 15%. That was prior to any climate action plans or the public policy emphasis we are putting on the issue now. Farmers, by doing what they do better and innovating all the time, reduced their footprint by 15% over that period. It increased because of the dairy capacity but over the last three or four years, we have seen livestock numbers plateau again. There was actually a slight reduction last year. Our objective now has to be to work together under the climate action plan with the various policies and supports we are putting in place to assist farming and agriculture to do what it already did before and reduce our emissions footprint in a proactive way while adding value to what we do in the process.

The LULUCF targets will be informed by the land use review and getting the fullest estimate of our national position. We will set the targets based on that. We are continuing the work in the meantime.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

We have a limit of 20 megatonnes. Is the Minister confident we will be able to stay within that limit?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

Targets have not been set yet and they will be informed by the land use review.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I thank the Minister. I raise the sector's role in the energy transition, with a particular focus on solar. It operates at different scales, at a utility scale in large holdings, with a number in my own county, Meath. It is also on farm sheds, commercial buildings and piggeries. I ask the Minister for an update on that, the opportunity he sees in it and the efforts to try to realise it. Specifically, will he speak on the TAMS restriction and farmers not being paid a feed-in or export tariff.

Elsewhere there is the challenge around land use. Perhaps the Minister will speak to the land use concerns for alternative fuels. How is the Department working its way through approaches to anaerobic digestion, biogas and biomass? What considerations are the Department making in that area and what opportunity does the Department see in those sectors? We often hear of people talking about hydrogenated vegetable oil, HVO, for example, and biogas, and I am aware there are challenges in planning and elsewhere to make that happen. What are the considerations on this?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I thank the Deputy. On the solar, there are two strands to it. There is massive potential here, as the Deputy has acknowledged. Just last week we announced new funding and grants under the Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, targeted agricultural modernisation scheme, TAMS, on-farm investment. We know that we need to drive this on significantly and farmers have a very strong appetite for it. We have increased the grant rates from 40% in the outgoing scheme to 60% now. We have also provided a different and entirely separate investment ceiling for solar, which does not use up farmers' full allowances, and which they may use for other things. There is a separate ceiling now for solar which is up to a maximum of €90,000 for a family farm, at a grant rate of 60%. That covers the solar panels as well as battery storage. This is for on-farm usage. We have also removed the need for planning permission for on-roof solar panels. This can also be applied on farm dwelling houses. I foresee a very significant uptake in this and significant interest. We are going to have to manage it. I expect the demand to be so strong that we will have to manage it so the actual capacity is there in the system to roll it out. We must examine that part but we are determined to drive this on and we have already started it through that measure.

Where there is TAMS support that avails of State-aid allowances meant to be for the farm footprint and farm use, one cannot also then use that to be paid for anything that spills over into the grid. We will give the battery storage so people can match their solar capacity to the battery to make sure that they can use it.

The Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications is developing a feed-in tariff for commercial generation, which I expect them to announce shortly. This is something that farmers can develop separately and create opportunity from, in terms of having more commercial-based solar panels and stacking that up from a financial point of view solely on the feed-in tariff. That will be alongside the funding and I see good potential there.

With regard to alternative land use, the Deputy will be aware of the forestry programme. That has a lot of benefits, from emissions reductions to carbon capture, and when done appropriately the programme enhances the environment and the biodiversity space too. Coillte has a 50% policy in relation to how they do that, for example.

On the anaerobic digestion, we will have a strategy by the third quarter of this year. We are working closely with the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications on that. It will offer real potential for farmers to be able to grow grass to feed the anaerobic digesters. Over the climate action plan our target by 2030 is that 10% of our total national gas needs and gas requirement will be provided through anaerobic digestion. It will be based around the strategy we are putting together.

An Cathaoirleach

Will the Minister expand on that last comment about growing grass for anaerobic digestion?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

The objective is that by 2030 up to 200 anaerobic digestion plants will be fed primarily by grass. Farmers in a locality will be growing grass crops in a sustainable manner and growing grass crops to feed anaerobic digestion plants, which will be producing biomethane gas. This will have the capacity for a 10% target of our total national needs to be produced in that way by 2030. It will be an option available for farmers, and it will be an income stream, obviously. It would also be a diversification option. Some farmers involved in other sectors at the moment could decide if this is something they want to do. There would be a network then across the country, but appropriately spaced given the capacity of a local area to serve it. Also going into that would be slurry as a way of managing slurry. Slurry and grass will be very significant then.

An Cathaoirleach

There have been challenges in other countries around growing a feed stock directly for anaerobic digestion. There have been challenges around food production, which is an important priority, and there are local environmental challenges in balancing the objectives. Obviously we want - and we have agreed politically to support - anaerobic digestion to the tune of 200 anaerobic digesters across the country but there is a careful balancing act between that imperative and the environmental risk of doing so.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I agree entirely. There is sustainability conditionality and criteria around how that should happen. It has to be done in a way that is sustainable and which actually produces a positive outcome in emissions reduction and around how the forage, grass and feeding is grown. It will comply with those sustainability criteria.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister.

Senator Róisín Garvey

I thank the Cathaoirleach for letting me in to the committee. The Minister said something very interesting about requiring transformational change and that we cannot be doing business as usual. To that end, the civil servants have been there longer than the Minister. The Minister is new to the role. We have a monumental challenge that we never had before. We have never had a climate action plan. We need huge diversification. Whatever about climate scientists being asked about it in the Department, I do believe that we need experts in land use and alternative farming methods. The core of the Government's approach to agriculture is to facilitate diversification. We cannot have business as usual. The Department officials and the Minister will have to look at expertise on diversification.

When the sectorial ceilings for agriculture were set last summer we all anticipated that the Department would bring forward new supports to help farmers to diversify. The Minister mentioned organic farming. It is Dublin, which is brilliant, but it is 2.9% of the land. Out of 137,500 farmers there are 4,000 going organic. That is great, it is small and it is beautiful but we have a climate and a biodiversity emergency so, unfortunately, it is on the Minister and the Department now to upskill in a huge way. The new acres are great on paper. It is brilliant that there are 30,000 or 46,000, which is also amazing, but who has the skills and who are the inspectors who have the knowledge to make sure it is not box ticking as it was in the past? I know with the GLAS inspectors it was "Yes, biodiversity, just tick the box." We cannot do that anymore. How is the Minister going to upscale and upskill staff and inspectors in order to meet these targets? We can talk about diversification, literally until the cows come home, but how do we have the expertise? We do not have them in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. The Minister does not have them and I do not have them.

I live on a small farm, my sister is a farmer and all of my neighbours are farmers. I see a lot happening unfortunately, that still benefits big dairy. Big dairy is 10% of the farmers of Ireland. Even though it is only 10% big dairy has a huge part to play in carbon reduction. We must differentiate between big intensive dairy farming and small farmers of the land, whether they are dry, suckler or dairy. There is a huge difference. Often the issues we are facing in climate reduction in carbon reduction would have to be zoned in on the large intensive dairy farmers but that is not what I see happening here. Is there a clear plan as to how we get to 25%? Is it 5% per year for the next five years or is it 3% each year for the next seven years?

For someone living on a small farm I see a lot happening that protects the large dairy intensive farmer and does not really support the small farmer so much. We must put more emphasis on the responsibility of the large intensive dairy farming around their carbon emissions, the nutrients and the nitrate uses. The larger the farm the more they will use, so of course the more responsibility they have. I see smaller family farmers feeling afraid that they are the ones going to take the biggest hit. One must consider the 10% of farmers that are large dairy farmers and the huge part they have to play first and foremost, instead of frightening the smaller farmers. Those who try to diversify are the most inspected, and are almost harassed, which is a word I have seen used when farmers do try to diversify.

I have seen raw cheese companies close down. As for small dairy farmers moving milk, it is great that they bring milk to the people but they have almost had to close given the level of money they are making. It seems the Department takes EU recommendations to the nth degree when it comes to small farmers.

Flooding is also a huge issue for small farmers. We need to do more about it. I have invited the Minister to come to Pickering with me and I will follow up with him on that. We need to get flooding nailed and the Arterial Drainage Act is a huge issue.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

The Senator is correct to say the diversification options include organics. She will, like me, have seen that the Minister of State, Senator Hackett, has done strong work in this regard. There has been a change in the interest levels among farmers, with farmers now seeing organics as a viable option and we are putting in the funding to back that. It is an important aspect and we are seeing it change quickly and grow.

Anaerobic digestion is also one of our key diversification options and we will have the strategy on that by quarter 3 of this year. We are also growing the area under tillage and last year, we made progress on tillage domestically, by 7%, which we want to try to continue, although challenges are emerging this year. We will have to look at how we manage them, given we want to grow our tillage again and carry out a lot more of it.

Moreover, forestry has significant potential. In that regard, we want to encourage a lot of people to do a small bit and incorporate forestry into as many farms as we can, which is why the premiums and the strategy we have put in place are very much focused on family farms, giving farmers 20 years of premiums as opposed to 15 years. Everybody had 15 years previously, but we have extended that for farmers to 20 years, with strong premiums in place for that. We are encouraging farmers, they have an acre or a hectare available on their farm, to incorporate that and in order that we can have that spread in different parts of the country, providing a significant diversification option.

There is potential also for solar, in respect of which there is a key focus at the moment on rooftops and at a commercial level.

As for ACRES not being a box-ticking exercise, there has been a complete reorientation of most schemes with the CAP, particularly with regard to ACRES, to being results based. It is no longer about doing the actions, given the learning was that completing the actions does not necessarily mean the result will be achieved. Rather, the focus has to be on the outcome because that is what counts.

Senator Róisín Garvey

I read that the Minister was inspired by the Burren farmers-----

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

Yes.

Senator Róisín Garvey

-----so I know all about it, but how do we ensure the inspectors will understand what to do?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

There is a training aspect on which there will be a series of seminars. The agricultural advisers are going to have a massive role, as will the new co-operation project teams. It is new and there will be a learning for everyone involved but it is about scaling up that capacity and reorienting everyone to the results-based system, with farm advisers and advisory professionals at the centre of that. A key role for them will involve working to inform farmers of that adjustment and bring that new learning.

There are five-year, rather than annual, targets, with actions that will help deliver them, and it is about stepping out those actions and making progress on them. As we scale it all up and build momentum, we will get more and more progress as we go along. Getting the ball rolling is the difficult part but that is where we are.

An Cathaoirleach

There was a reference earlier to the exemption for hedgerows of under 500 m and the Minister indicated he will be willing to reconsider and revise that in the next few months. I hope that within April or May, or at least very soon thereafter, we that 500 m exemption could be revised downwards.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

It is one item that is being reviewed as part of it, and I acknowledge the Cathaoirleach’s view and concern about this. From a policy point of view, we wish to see, and are seeing, a significant increase in respect of hedgerows and that is what we want to improve. The current 500 m threshold is significant, so we will review what constitutes an appropriate threshold.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister for clarifying that. In response to Senator Pauline O'Reilly, he commented on an exit scheme, if that is the correct term, for dairy farmers. Did he say he would be coming forward with proposals on that in the next few months?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

Yes. We are committed to having that finalised by the third quarter of this year. There has been a request for it, and it is something on which I will have to engage at Government level in respect of the funding aspects and anything we agree. By quarter 3, we will bring clarity to what we plan to do. To give as much clarity as possible in the meantime, I have made clear that 2022 will be the reference base year for any scheme we introduce.

An Cathaoirleach

With regard to the 1 March deadline and the 1 September date at the other end, has there been any discussion about changing those dates and bringing them forward to February and later in September, respectively?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

This relates to a regulation under the National Parks and Wildlife Service, so it is very much focused on accommodating wildlife, in particular birdlife, and it is crucial that that coincide with hedge cutting and burning such that there will not be any impact on birds' nesting, habitats and so on. If there were to be any impact, we should fully reflect on it. The 1 March deadline is there to avoid any impact on the nesting season.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. I refer back to those harrowing images we are seeing throughout the country with respect to the burning of gorse and so on. We will have the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage in before the committee, so I will put the matter to him then.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

Turning to the area of the marine, it was welcome that the Minister mentioned it earlier and that it has been incorporated into the climate action plan. It is one area on which we have not focused enough when it comes to climate action and general environmental health. One of the main areas where the marine can assist with climate action relates to acting as a carbon store, but it is clear that fishing activities such as bottom trawling interrupt that and cause significant problems when it comes to carbon storage. It has been estimated that 1 gigatonne of carbon per year is released globally along the seabed from bottom trawling, which is where nets are dragged along the seabed, especially where people are fishing in Irish waters for species such as cod, haddock and so on.

As the Minister will be aware, I used to work for the Marine Institute and did a lot of fishing. I was part of surveys where we placed cameras on the seabed to look at nephrops and their habitat. It was clear it was like a moonscape, with the sediment that was there. We could really reflect on bottom trawling and how it would impact on and scrape up that sediment and cause difficulties.

A leaked report from the EU in recent weeks indicated the EU was going to propose a ban on bottom trawling in marine protected areas, and it is a Government commitment that marine protected areas will cover 30% of our maritime territory by 2030. Will the Minister support a ban on bottom trawling in marine protected areas in Ireland?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I thank the Deputy and acknowledge this is an area in which she has significant background and expertise. We do not have a target at the moment for the marine environment in the context of emissions reductions. The action plan drafting process strongly indicated the marine sector overall could be called on to contribute to the 5.25 megatonne carbon equivalent of annual emissions reduction. It is something we are considering further in the context of the climate action plan and we are carrying out more research on it.

The Deputy is correct. We have a lot more work to do there. Bottom trawling is a key consideration as part of the CFP review. It is a European competence because we all share one another's waters; we fish in British waters and other European waters as well as our own. In fact, one third of the fish we catch is caught in British waters. The key consideration is that we give a full assessment of impact and that we minimise the impact in every way we can. That is considering the tools we can put in place to ensure that fishing is happening sustainably.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

I would love to see the Marine Institute being funded to carry out significant research into the carbon capture capabilities of seabeds. I know it has done work on seagrasses and salt marshes but we need to look more broadly than that.

Is it correct that Ireland will determine what activities will happen in its MPAs rather than it being an EU responsibility? That would be to say whether there will be no take zones or exactly what fishing can happen within designated MPAs.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

There is a blend there, I believe. There are obligations on us but we would also have options within that. My understanding is that there is a blend.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

We tend to ignore fish from a carbon capture perspective but they are integral to the ecosystem. I know there is a bit of a campaign to look at fish as carbon engineers. To maintain healthy fish stocks, it needs to be ensured that fishermen are not taking out more than the fish are able to reproduce themselves. One of the calls from NGOs on that, and in recognition of the importance of healthy fish stocks, is that they are looking for transparency around stock allocation. That is a big issue. I would have worked on the stock book that the Marine Institute do every year. It goes every year to International Council for the Exploration of the Sea, ICES, and there are negotiations but they are all done behind closed doors. There is zero transparency over the negotiations. What happens every year is that the scientific evidence goes in, and it says "This is how many fish; this is what you can take out in order to maintain a healthy fish stock," yet every year that is over-allocated. That has led to the point where we are now and I do not know how healthy any of our fish stocks are at this point. It is clear that we have not been managing them properly. Has the Minister any concerns about the lack of transparency? Does he believe something like that would be important so people in Ireland and in each country know how their public representatives are negotiating and what things are being taken into account when those allocations are being done and that transparency is important to enable that to happen.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

That is crucial in how we set our catches, not only in what the quotas might be for the full catch or allocated catch for the year but also how it is actually caught and that we do that in a sustainable way. It is fair to say we have a bit of a way to go with this but we have come a long way. It is certainly the case that in the past we did not have the same knowledge or understanding to ensure we were doing it in the right way. That is why some of our key fisheries have been closed and remain closed. Thankfully for the north west, herring reopened because of the conservation measures we have been taking over recent years are starting to work but herring was closed and cod, a really important traditional fishery, was overfished and it is now closed as well. At European level the move has been very significantly underway and we are making progress on it every year in terms of moving to maximum sustainable yield. The objective is to ensure that every stock is fished at that. Where the challenge can come in is where there is mixed fisheries and it becomes more difficult but it is crucial that we do it in a way that is sustainable. No one is it more crucial for but than the fishermen and fisherwomen themselves because it is central to their future careers as well.

The role fish play on the ecosystem, carbon capture, etc. is an important point. It is important that we do more research on that. The Marine Institute does a lot of work on this. It was great to launch the new boat, the RV Tom Crean, which is a wonderful vessel. It will do strong work and equip the Marine Institute team to do more in this space. Just yesterday, I met with our fish group under BirdWatch Ireland, which is advocating in this space as well. It is important that we all work together to make sure we marry the various objectives: sustainable fisheries, which are economically sustainable but also biologically sustainable, and working in a way that protects the marine environment as well.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

I do want to congratulate the Minister on the RV Tom Crean. I love the name as well. I do have a soft spot for the RV Celtic Voyager though because that was the one I was on but it was great to see the new boat out.

Deputy Richard Bruton

I thank the Minister. I have three questions. First, can he shed any light on the vexed question of rewetting organic soil? The committee had hearings where at least one person presenting said that across 400,000 ha., 10 million tonnes of carbon emissions were generated. It is a relatively small part of our land base but it is generating a massive proportion of our emissions, properly classified under land use. The target is to drain 30,000 of those by 2025 and 80,000 ultimately. That seems low. Are there particular obstacles? If the prize is so big it seems low. It seems that because the prize is so big, the people who have such land could be substantially incentivised to make it worth their while.

I want to probe the Minister on the carbon farming issue. I acknowledge there are issues around measurement and verification but the committee has been informed that the science is much more advanced than we are adopting and that Australia, New Zealand and other countries are doing this effectively with what is available. It may not be perfect but even if we were a bit out on verification or measurement the fact that an income stream could be created for farmers that would reward them for doing what is at the core of our challenge seems a massive prize to win. If we could design a process, albeit not perfect, and move ahead of Europe, not wait for Europe and, if necessary, pilot it in certain areas, that would be a positive signal that we are thinking differently and we are trying to do differently.

Finally, I appeal to the Minister again on the circular economy. It is not an added extra within the existing dairy, beef or sheep sectors because it addresses waste. The waste we generate in food, which is more than 1.1 million tonnes a year is the equivalent of 3.6 million tonnes of CO2. If the Minister got rid of food waste, he would meet the entire target that he had set for agriculture for 2025. That is not realistic, of course, but going along the chain we misplace that waste so it does not go back into composting but into landfill or incineration. We do not have package-free areas like they do in France so people do not have the opportunity of buying their food without the attendant plastic or whatever. It is right along the chain. The big advantage of this is that it is not finger-pointing at the farmers. It recognises that as a country, our consumption patterns, the cars we buy and all that, has a huge impact on climate, albeit maybe it is not on the Irish inventory. There would, therefore, be a better approach. Everyone is seeking to resolve this collectively rather than what I often find is finger-pointing at farmers because of the way we look quite narrowly at the emissions targets.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

We have a lot more work to do to establish our national position on rewetting. That work is under way and will form a key part of phase 2 of the land use review. Much of the scientific understanding and assessment that we are working off at the moment is international and is not specific to our own situation.

We have to fully understand our own situation. Compared to other European countries, we have a lot more peat-based agricultural soil and drained agricultural soil. It is important that this is understood and reflected in our approach at European level in the nature restoration laws and commitments we make. As part of our plans and the climate action plan, we have stepped out commitments to 30,000 ha by 2025 and 80,000 ha by 2030. The new agri-climate rural environment scheme, ACRES, for example, had that as an aspect and the uptake is about 3,000 ha as part of that. We also have a European innovation partnership, EIP, project in the midlands which is doing very significant work in this space and our national agencies like Bord na Móna and Coillte are doing significant work on this. It is going to be about how we provide the incentive to farmers to contribute and it is important that it be on a voluntary basis. Farmers should have the option to decide what they do with their land and we should respect that while giving the capacity to farmers to contribute significantly to those targets. With regard to identifying the overall quantum and situation, there is work ongoing to get a full understanding of that.

As regards carbon farming, there are systems in place in some other countries. We do not have that European platform in place yet. It is happening rapidly and the work is ongoing. Mr. Bill Callanan, who is here beside me, will be in Europe next week meeting with the Commission on this point to feed into it. We are doing significant work on establishing what the baseline is and how we certify the measurement of where carbon is added, and then also looking at how we can finance that and monetise it. It is a rapidly evolving space but the first part of it is the European platform that is now being established, which we and other countries will then be able to work off. The second part is doing the research at national level, which is the work the Teagasc is doing at the moment with the flux towers it has around the country. It is examining exactly what is happening in our soil and the level of emissions as well as the level of sequestration and how different practices are impacting that.

Deputy Richard Bruton

There are small-scale pilots doing this already. It would be a good signal if those were substantially expanded without waiting for the perfect model from Europe.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

We are using some of our just transition funds this year to support some of those projects. However, I accept the point that the Deputy is making.

An Cathaoirleach

Did the Minister say 3,000 ha will be rewetted under ACRES?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

It is 2,500 ha.

An Cathaoirleach

The target for 2025 is 30,000 ha. Is that correct?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

That is right.

An Cathaoirleach

It is not just ACRES that is going to deliver that-----

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

No. It is one aspect of it.

An Cathaoirleach

I am wondering where the other 27,500 ha will come from in such a short space of time. Have we a sense of that?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

We do. State agencies like Coillte and Bord na Móna also have the capacity to contribute to that. We also have an EIP project in the midlands which will be availing of just transition funding and which we expect to make significant progress and contribute to that as well.

An Cathaoirleach

Is there an analysis of the 25,000 ha, or indeed the 80,000 ha by 2030, and where that hectarage is going to come from that the Minister could share with the committee? Does the Department know that in detail?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

We are getting a full assessment at the moment of exactly what our land profile is, where the peat-based soils are and particularly where the drained peat-based soils are because we do not have a very accurate overview of that currently. That is going to be important as regards clarifying what the Cathaoirleach is looking for. In the meantime we have other work under way, whether it be through ACRES, the EIP programme or the work State agencies are doing to be on this journey and this path.

An Cathaoirleach

There is the incentive piece as well, as Deputy Bruton mentioned, to bring farmers into the scheme. We heard that there is a false narrative around rewetting that it is about flooding land but it is not. It may reduce the grazing season somewhat but we heard that agriculture can still continue on the land. That is the message that has not gone out. It is not about flooding farmland; it is about raising the water table and continuing some agricultural practices on the land. If that message gets out it could give some reassurance to the sector.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I agree. Some of this is rewetting and then there is also restoration. The research on this is still evolving, as are the nature restoration laws that will be coming at European level. It is important that we get the definitions right in order to properly provide the flexibility for us to deal with this appropriately.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I thank the Minister. To go back to the dairy industry, which I spoke about earlier, there is going to have to be some recognition that aggressive marketing of formula milk, both here and across the globe, supports this carbon-intensive form of agriculture to an extent that probably is not necessary and undermines breastfeeding. That aside, let me go back to ACRES. It has one main objective and that is to get us to our goals and to our target. The other objective obviously is to support farmers in doing that. I understand the Department has increased the scheme to 46,000 farmers. I know farmers and meet with farmers all the time in the west of Ireland and they are very happy with ACRES. The Cathaoirleach spoke about how it will actually help us to reach our targets. The Minister referred to one element, the rewetting of peat soils. The amount that is being achieved through ACRES seems very low. I am a little concerned if it is around the 3,000 ha level because, as the Minister said, the target is 80,000 ha by 2030. We have had people come in from other Departments and talk about different programmes that are happening but we want to know what the actual impact of each of those of programmes is. It is not just about pilots. It cannot just be about looking at the data anymore. We may not know precisely about our peat soils but we know we have them and we have proper analysis and academic research that shows the impact of rewetting. Can the Minister give more precise figures, if not today then at some point, on the impact of the programme in the midlands and so on across the country? We need to see how the Department will reach its targets by 2025 and by 2030.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

We can come back with further detail on how the rewetting aspect is going to step out. ACRES is going to deliver from an emissions production point of view and a big objective in ACRES is also the biodiversity piece. While they are doing a lot of work in the biodiversity space, some of those measures do not necessarily translate into emissions reductions but it is massively important work in providing that space for nature. ACRES will achieve both objectives but a big objective behind it is addressing biodiversity and nature as well as bringing about emissions reductions.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

That is hugely important. It is not its sole function to reduce carbon but at the same time we need to see some figures on it. Even from the point of view of land use for biodiversity, we need to see what those figures are. I mentioned earlier that the requirement to have permission or screening on some land is not there at the moment. That is having a deep impact on biodiversity. All of these pieces are part of the jigsaw around land use that we can point to and say what we have changed. I still have further questions following this meeting.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I will get the Senator some figures on ACRES specifically on what our expected contribution is from an emissions reduction point of view.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I thank the Minister.

An Cathaoirleach

I would argue that it is about the non-ACRES piece as well.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

Yes. The non-ACRES piece is what I was asking for.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

Okay.

Deputy Réada Cronin

I want to say how dismayed I am at how this meeting has gone. I do not ever remember a Fine Gael or Green Party Minister of Government taking such a party political and partisan approach when replying to questions that we, as members representing the people, ask. I am taken aback by the way that went. I found it shocking actually. I hope it is not necessary for the Chair to remind the Minister that he is here to answer questions from us and not to pose questions. I hope this does not happen at any other committee meetings we have in future.

I very much welcome the €1.3 billion for Irish forestry. I think all of us, including the Government, were taken aback by the response from the public to the Gresham House deal. I do not believe I have ever had as many emails on an issue, apart from on the mother and baby institutions issue. People were taken aback by that deal. I know changes are being made to that.

We need monoculture forestry, such as spruce, because we have to start building homes using wood, rather than bricks and mortar, notwithstanding that it is of inferior quality. People want to see afforestation with native trees. Has the Minister had any consultation with Coillte on reducing the use of chemicals on its land?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I accept there was concern about the Gresham House deal. I engaged very closely on the matter with all parties and representatives, the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine and Coillte at the time. It was important to contextualise what was agreed and the commitment Coillte signed up to over five years. It involves 700 ha of new afforestation a year for five years, which amounts to 1% of our national target overall. We have made clear that we want to support Coillte in the area of afforestation again. It has worked very well in afforestation in the past and is keen to contribute to it again. We want to explore how the State can support and work with it directly. We also want to see how Coillte can work directly with farmers to achieve that objective. I know Coillte is exploring that also and its representatives appeared before the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine yesterday to discuss that.

The Deputy is correct that we need a blend of trees. Conifers are a very commercial plant and deliver very strongly in respect of wood, which is very important in displacing fossil-based materials from construction. We need to grow conifer forest if we are to achieve this aim. One in four of all new builds nationally are timber-framed buildings, which is more than people think. There is significant potential to go further than that but we have to have the wood to do so.

We need to have a blend of native and broadleaf trees. We have placed a major emphasis on that in the new forestry programme. For example, the premiums for broadleaf trees are €1,100 per hectare per year. The premium is available to farmers for up to 20 years now compared with 15 years previously. If a farmer plants a hectare of broadleaf forestry on their land, that will be €22,000 per annum in premiums over the 20-year period, which is also tax-free. We very much want to incentivise that and I believe we will see significant uptake in interest in the programme because it makes sense for many farmers from an income point of view to do a little forestry on their farm. That can then contribute to emissions reduction and biodiversity.

Deputy Réada Cronin

I asked about the use of chemicals on Coillte lands and the effect it has on visitors and people living in the vicinity. Are there any plans to reduce the amount of chemicals Coillte is using?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

There are no chemicals used that do not have a full safety track record. This is not a discussion I have had directly with Coillte but I can ask a member of my team to revert to the Deputy with a response and more detail. The officials are not in a position to contribute to the meeting.

Deputy Réada Cronin

I will submit some parliamentary questions on the issue.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Boylan is our next speaker. I understand Deputy Whitmore needs to leave soon so perhaps she can speak first.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

No, it is fine.

Senator Lynn Boylan

I will not be long. Coillte is not a “relevant body” under the Climate Action and Low Carbon Development (Amendment) Act 2021. This was confirmed to us by the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Eamon Ryan. What level of engagement has the Minister had to ensure the organisation will achieve its emissions reduction targets?

My next question is on Teagasc and the make-up of its board. My understanding is that the role of Teagasc includes reviewing and guiding the strategic direction. Its board is made up of representatives of the Irish Co-operative Organisation Society, ICOS, the Irish Farmers Association, IFA, the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers Association, ICMSA, and Macra na Feirme. Given that we are in circumstances where we have legally binding sectoral emissions reduction targets, does the Minister need to review the make-up of the board of Teagasc to include representatives of the organic and regenerative farming organisations, or even a member of the Climate Change Advisory Council, to ensure Teagasc is going in the right direction?

My third question is on a story that broke this week about Kerrygold butter being blocked from being exported to the United States because of the presence of PFAS in the packaging material. We know that PFAS and microplastics are increasing as a result of climate change. As these materials break down, they contribute to climate change. Is the Minister concerned about the impact of this on Ireland’s reputation? Are PFAS being used in the packaging in products such as Kerrygold and Tipperary butter being sold in Ireland?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I do not have the answer to the Senator's second question.

Senator Lynn Boylan

Is the Minister referring to PFAS?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

Yes. I will get the Senator a written response.

Senator Lynn Boylan

I thank the Minister.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

On the Senator's point in respect of Teagasc, the organisation fulfils its legal mandate and has been leading out in respect of our sustainability pathway. Teagasc put together the first climate action pathway and climate plan for any sector, including the marginal abatement cost, MAC, curve for agriculture. It has been central to what we have been doing and that will continue. It has been working very closely with farmers and the sector to achieve those objectives. On its performance, the Teagasc board and all of its staff are working exceptionally in this regard. I do not see any challenge-----

Senator Lynn Boylan

We are all delighted to see the uptick in farmers who are going organic, which is very welcome. We are talking about rewetting and rewilding. Regenerative farming is also part of that process. Surely there is space on the board for representatives of these sectors to bring their expertise, given that our agricultural sector is moving in that direction, albeit not fully. At least more farmers are going down that road and their voices would be a welcome addition to the board.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

The voices of all representatives in the sector are very important. It is important that we all work together. I do not see a particular issue in respect of the Teagasc board. As an organisation, it is performing very strongly and very much leading out on our targets, be that in organics or any other sector. I take on board the Senator’s view on the matter.

On Coillte, the climate Act and climate targets, Coillte has been very proactive in the strategic plan it launched recently. The plan outlines how it plans to plant 100,000 ha of new forestry by 2050.

That is ambitious and Coillte plans to do that in a way that is 50% farmed for commercial purposes and 50% farmed for nature. All of its forest assets will have open access for the public as well, which is different from how most other forests are managed. The strategy Coillte has put forward is forward-thinking and has been backing our national targets in emissions reductions and in providing space for nature and biodiversity recovery. We will continue to engage closely with Coillte on that.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

I want to talk about fish with the Minister again. With regard to the different species we have, including our iconic native species and the pressures that are being put on them, whether it is from climate change or overfishing, the Atlantic salmon is one that has been highlighted frequently and it is one that a lot of people would have serious concerns on. Inland Fisheries Ireland has been highly critical of the Government's policy on open-cage fish farming and it recognises that pressures are put on wild stocks as a result of those fish farms. I have worked on a number of fish farms, both in Ireland and internationally, and I have seen some good practice and some really bad practice. That was many years ago and I hope that things have cleaned up a lot since then. I know there have been concerns regarding a particular farm on the west coast and that the former Minister, Deputy Creed, suspended the licence on that farm, Mowi farm, in 2019. However, the farm is still operating because it is going through an appeal process. Despite the former Minister closing that farm down, it is still operating. It seems that the appeal has gone to the Aquaculture Licences Appeals Board and I wonder if the Minister could give an update on this because it seems like a long time to allow an entity that the then Minister was concerned about to operate while it goes through appeals. Is there any way to expedite that review? It is important for a decision to be made either way.

I am also aware that there are a number of farms that would appear to be have aquaculture operations without licences. Will the Minister commit to having a review of all aquaculture sites to make sure they are licensed and that they are operating within their licences? Unless this is managed, we will open ourselves up to an awful lot of problems. Ideally, where we need to go with this is to move into a closed loop system for aquaculture rather than having an open-cage system. Will Government policy move in that direction? Has there been any Government research on closed aquaculture operations? If not, would the Minister consider doing this? There is a lot of potential to have an aquaculture system that is sustainable and one that benefits local communities from an economic and environmental perspective. I ask him to examine those measures.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

The Deputy's first point was on a specific farm. I adjudicate on licences, etc., and, therefore, I am not in a position to deal with specific applications that may come before me. There has been a challenge in recent years in renewal and the issuing of licences for all types of aquaculture, shellfish and fin fish. There has been a significant backlog and there was a court decision a number of years ago that changed how licence applications would be assessed. That backlog has been pretty much dealt with for the shellfish applications and almost all of them have been decided upon, either favourably or with a refusal. The finfish applications require environmental impact assessment reports, of which I have received the vast majority. Therefore, that process is proceeding and we want to get all of those through the system. The focus at the start was on the shellfish applications because there was such a bulk of them. There are fewer applications in the area of finfish - 20 to 30 - but they take a lot more time and consideration and the input and information required from the applicants amounts to a much more cumbersome process. I want to ensure that all of those applications are expedited as promptly as possible so that the sector can have those finalised.

On closed loop aquaculture, I am not sure offhand if we did research on that before but we have to explore all opportunities. There is great space in aquaculture in the time ahead. Fish in general, including farmed fish, are efficient from a food conversion point of view. It is the most efficient protein meat you can have in terms of its efficiency for feed conversion. It has to be done in a way that is environmentally appropriate but any opportunity that is there, either land-based or sea-based, we have to look at how we can sustainably manage and develop it. I would be open to exploring that fully and I will get the Deputy a specific response on that.

An Cathaoirleach

I want to ask the Minister about two issues that are not directly under his brief but that he might have some interest and influence in. We spoke earlier about solar farming and an issue has been raised, which I am not sure has come across the Minister's desk, where farmers get a 90% relief on inheriting the land but they forfeit that relief if they use more than 50% of their land for solar farms. We are told that the effects of that regulation are that a swathe of landholdings throughout the country have been taken out of potential use for solar farming. We have raised this at the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine with the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, Deputy Donohoe, but this seems like it is a significant block to development and the diversification we are trying to explore for farmers. If they are forfeiting 90% relief, they will not even entertain the suggestion when a developer comes along and asks if they are willing to work with it to develop a solar farm. Perhaps this is something the Minister can consider and take to his colleagues at Cabinet level.

The second matter is the Arterial Drainage Act 1945, which is more of a matter for the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. It has been on the Statute Book since the 1940s and, as I understand it, the legislation was enacted partially as a labour activation measure and partially to bring marginal land into agricultural production. It is a recommendation of this committee in a recent report that we published just before Christmas that the Act be reviewed because it does not quite fit with where we are trying to go with land use. I ask that the Minister and the Department consider the appropriateness of the Act in this challenge we have to change land use and provide opportunities for farmers across the country.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

There is a challenge on inheritance relief for land. The relief is in place for agricultural purposes and where it goes over the 50% the relief does not apply. That has been pointed out as being a barrier to people deciding to bring some agricultural land into solar production. I will continue to engage across government on what is the appropriate balance.

Solar is moving out of the agricultural space, but at the same time it is something that provides farmers with a real opportunity to contribute to energy production. How we manage that balance is something we have to continue to reflect on.

In relation to the Arterial Drainage Act, I take on board the Cathaoirleach's comments. It is something I will look at further. I do not have any other comment to make on it at the moment.

An Cathaoirleach

Does Senator Garvey want to come in?

Senator Róisín Garvey

I will just make a couple of final points before the Minister goes. It is nice to have him in the room. Apart from increasing feed production in Ireland, what about increasing food production? For example, we import 140,000 tonnes of potatoes from the UK every year. It is not as if we do not know how to grow a spud in Ireland. If we are looking at carbon footprint, that would be one simple thing we could do. It sounds facetious, but I think we should have a spud-growing grant. I know lots of food growers, and they struggle. Friends of mine run Beechlawn Organic Farm, which is the biggest organic growing operator in Ireland. Through a lot of sweat, blood and tears, they have 20 staff working for them. There are jobs in food production, despite what some people think. Sometimes dairy and beef farmers say that theirs is only half a job and they have to go and work, but anyone I know who is producing food actually creates a living for themselves out of it. There is that plus as well. Also, we need to produce more fruit in this country. It takes up land use. Anything we grow increases carbon efficiency and improves the topsoil, which we know locks in carbon. We have very shallow topsoil in Ireland and there are huge challenges there. If we improve the topsoil, we stop flooding and lose less nutrients as well. Food production is a huge issue.

The farming inspectors and advisers who have been issuing guidelines to farmers for years played a huge part in getting farming to where it is now, that is, where it is no longer fit for purpose as we face into a climate and biodiversity emergency. To that end, what education or training is being provided for the civil servants and inspectors so that they are very clear as to what has to be done and why it has to be done? If you do not understand why you have to do something, it is very hard to impart much to others and get them to understand why they have to do it. Friends of mine did the GLAS training to become inspectors. The inspectors themselves did not really believe in GLAS. How do we make sure there is a deeper understanding of the acreage issue, which gives me so much hope on paper, and the reason it is so vital for our children and grandchildren that we get this right? Unfortunately, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine probably has one of the most important jobs in the country in facing climate change. It has the solution to everything, whether it is energy, food or even transport. There are huge issues there. We could reduce our transport costs if we were not importing loads of food. The Department has the solution to carbon sequestration. There is a huge educational piece of work to be done. We cannot presume that everybody who has been taking a business as usual approach will suddenly know how to do things in a completely new way. I would love to hear what is happening around getting expertise in. I do not mean science experts. I mean land use and how the solutions to the climate emergency all lie in our land use, basically.

When we look at the increase in the herd, much of it is to do with the bad pricing that farmers get and the cost involved in slaughtering and dealing with offal. Offal is the elephant in the room when we are talking about agriculture. There is a monopoly in Ireland in terms of who owns the slaughterhouses and the offal disposal factories. They have a monopoly on how much they can charge. Until that is dealt with in some way, it will be hard for farmers to reduce their stock in intensive farming. Perhaps the co-operatives and looking at other ways of doing things are part of the solution as well. It has all become so centralised now that it is outside farmers' control. They do not have any competitive power because of the monopoly.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I agree with the Senator on our capacity to do more in horticulture and to be more self-sufficient, at a minimum by meeting our national needs across vegetable and fruit lines. The horticulture strategy is under development. This issue is a key consideration in that. We can produce and we can do horticulture well in this country. We should do more of it. We have seen a contraction in the number of horticulture producers and farmers. The sector has become very specialised and there has been a real contraction in numbers. There was a concern last year, particularly for some of the housed horticultural products, in relation to energy. I ran a scheme because we did not want to see any further reduction in that. It is now really about how we try to promote horticulture. A lot of our horticulture production and produce is for the domestic market, so it is much different from lamb, beef and milk, which are mostly exported. It is mainly for domestic consumption. We need to ensure the supply chain relationships are healthy and the producers are not in a vulnerable position or overexposed. The office of the new food regulator is going to have an important role to play in trying to ensure that relationship is promoted and we provide more certainty and confidence to growers when they are growing for the domestic market so that the relationships are strong. It is an area in which we have to do more. That makes entire sense in terms of short supply chains locally and reducing our emissions footprint.

In relation to ACRES and the importance of training all Department staff as well as advisers and farmers through that scheme, the Senator is right. It is a really important part of the work. There is a significant reorientation in how this environmental scheme will operate because it is results-based as opposed to actions-based. It is about what the outcome is as opposed to simply what is being done. As we speak, there is in-service training going on for the agricultural inspectors. There will also be training for the advisers and farmers. That is going to be an important piece of work to ensure the quality is strong.

Senator Róisín Garvey

On the short supply chains, I know it sounds kitsch and romantic, but I think we are missing a trick with farmers' markets. There are not many farmers at most farmers' markets. There are lots of other cool things. The Minister talked about short supply chains. That is the whole problem. When there is a monopoly on slaughtering, it rules out a lot of the possibilities. The most sustainable thing we can do is to buy local meat, milk and spuds. Unfortunately, there are huge barriers to doing that. John Vaughan of Moo'ghna Milk is bringing 50 cows of milk to three villages, but it nearly broke him to get there because of the over-inspections and the heavy emphasis on health and safety to the Nth degree. It sounds romantic, but at the end of the day, if we want to be sustainable as an island, looking at the climate and biodiversity emergencies, people should be able to go and buy local products that are affordable. If we cut out all these middlemen, it would be affordable. That is how John Vaughan can do what he is doing. We can pay him for the milk. I could not buy a litre of Clare milk until he started doing this. There is something wrong with that. If we are genuinely talking about sustainability, farmers' markets should be places where farmers are able to sell their meat and vegetables, and are supported in that rather than battling with the local authority for a bit of space because they want it all for cars and stuff. There are huge issues there. The Department should be driving farmers' markets if it is genuinely concerned about and committed to sustainability.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

We have seen significant growth in farmers' markets in recent years and I often go to them myself. It is wonderful to be able to buy food locally and to meet the people who are actually producing it. I am certainly open to looking at ideas on how we can encourage that further.

An Cathaoirleach

As no one else is indicating, we will finish up there. I think there are a few issues on which the Minister might revert to us in due course. We are certainly eager to here more on the rewetting plan because 2025 is only two years away. There is a lot of work to do there. Senator Boylan mentioned PFAS. The Minister might provide us with a note on that. Then there are matters on which the Minister committed to act in the next few months, including hedgerows. Senator Pauline O'Reilly mentioned the exit scheme for dairy farmers.

It is going to be very challenging, as the Minister acknowledged. However, I think he would agree that there are going to be significant opportunities as we change. Change is not easy, but I think we all agree it has to happen. We have to do it in such a way that it works for everybody, and that we get on the right path from a climate and environment point of view.

I think I can speak for the committee in wishing the Minister well in dealing with this challenge. We look forward to considering this matter again with him next year to see what progress has been made. I hope that at that time we can say we are very much on the right path with respect to agriculture and land use. I thank him and his officials for coming here. We have had a very helpful engagement. We look forward to developments over the course of the next few weeks and months.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.10 p.m. until 12.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 7 March 2023.