Skip to main content
Normal View

JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Wednesday, 1 Mar 2006

European Environment Agency: Presentation.

We are dealing with No. 3, a presentation by the European Environment Agency on its report entitled The European Environment: State and Outlook 2005. I welcome the representatives of European Environment Agency, Professor Jacqueline McGlade, executive director, and Mr. Jock Martin, programme manager, to this meeting of the joint committee. We appreciate their travelling from Copenhagen to attend our meeting today. Our committee is particularly interested in the agency's report, The European Environment: State and Outlook 2005. We welcome this opportunity to hear first-hand the issues raised therein.

I advise members that the visiting delegation needs to depart for the airport around 3 p.m. and we need to vacate this room by 4 p.m. Our business today needs to be conducted within two time slots of one hour each. I invite Professor McGlade to commence proceedings by making her presentation.

Professor Jacqueline McGlade

It gives me great pleasure to be here and I thank the committee very much for making time available for us to come here. I recognise that part of the reason we are here is the provocation caused by the state of environment report we brought out, which I believe created some headlines in the national press here. I would like to make a presentation following which I will be happy to answer questions on the report and, more broadly, on issues the committee is facing and discussing with regard to the reason we have brought forward this year for the first time a country score card in the context of Europe. It is important that we spend some time dealing with that aspect.

The agency is based in Copenhagen and approximately 150 members of staff are based there. They cover expertise ranging from air quality, climate change, water, land use, biodiversity, agriculture, energy, transport, etc. We cover the whole range of the environment and impacts on the environment. However, a critical aspect of our work is that we do not work alone but with clients and stakeholders. National representatives, like the members of the committee, are represented on our board by a board member, a national focal point and a network of specialists inside the country.

In addition, we also take care of a network of protection agencies, the implementing arm of many of the ministries. On the one hand we have dialogue with you, the deliverers of policy, and, on the other hand, the front line troops, so to speak, implement the policies in the national context. Our job is to ensure that any decisions made along that chain are informed by proper and up-to-date information and data, as we can provide it, and that it is put into the right policy context. We bring forward opinions and value our independence. So, although in a sense we represent your collective views through the collective data flows that come to us, we in turn ensure our opinions are based on our independent analyses, both scientific and technical, in all the major policy areas that are your concern.

We also provide support to the agriculture and transport sectors and in energy debates. We ensure that the environment is well positioned throughout much of the discussion within the Lisbon Agenda and the better regulation agenda. Many of these carry an environmental element and we are the locus of the origination of that data and information.

We are required to produce a report every five years and our regulation is to assess the state of the environment and to give outlooks for the future. In the 2005 report, we took a step forward with all members, with their consent, and gave a country profile. It was not just a European profile. This was not to step over into the issue of subsidiarity but to give members a view of themselves as seen from the European perspective. That is why, in part C, we have taken the data flows and the information provided by members to build up indicators on environmental performance and progress towards political targets. We put that spotlight on every country.

Why have the countries come out as they have? There are three or four conditions that enable us to analyse both performance and progress and make more sense of it. Clearly, longevity is part of the solution here. When we look at our scorecard, which in the report is a rather large league table, there is a cluster of countries which by their performance all look very similar. Politically, they are the new member states. One can see from their performance that they are making good progress. They have differential targets but they are putting in place the type of legislation and implementation we would expect.

There is another cluster of countries — the United Kingdom, Germany, France, the Netherlands and Sweden — which have another composite of performance and then there is the cluster of Ireland, Spain and Portugal. The clustering around the performance there is clearly an outcome not so much of aspirations or motivation in the environment field but of economic development. One sees, therefore, three countries that are undergoing and have undergone in the last five to ten years significant economic and infrastructure development which,ipso facto, has an environmental impact. Therefore, it is not without comment that the areas of red in the performance for Ireland sit within the consequences of that development — emissions of greenhouse gases, emissions into air so air quality is compromised, the way transport is developing and the way waste has increased.

That is not to say, however, and in the text we put more flesh on the bone, that these indicators do not actually suggest good progress. The encouraging areas are across the board. Ireland has already taken on board the significant progress that can be made with consumer awareness. When consumers are alerted to what their impacts can be on the environment there is a return on that. There are significant improvements in the way Ireland is tackling waste, albeit it is living through the legacy of a long-term process where there was not as much attention paid to waste. One can see, for example, that there are changes in electricity generation with renewables being encouraged and supported. There are a number of other areas.

The fundamental issue for Ireland in our analysis is that there is a legacy and many of the policies being debated and implemented today will take time to deliver real benefits and outcomes. The final message we can give — the report considers the outlooks for Europe and individual countries and we try to give a synthetic view of what the economy of Europe looks like with its significant draw on resources from around the world — is that shifting the problem across boundaries does not help in the long term. It always comes back to every nation state having to address the problem at home. It means having to address how to deliver energy demand in an increasingly price sensitive market and how to address international conventions such as Kyoto and the biodiversity convention in a realistic way without compromising economic development.

We see solutions. We can also provide a very good insight into what the future looks like because a large section of the report discusses the spatial planning of Europe. We can already tell Ireland that its future is well known. It is already mapped out with its transport policies, the urbanisation patterns that are in place and the trends in agriculture, water quality and climate change. We would say that there is not much room for manoeuvre. Many of the resources are already under pressure, not just in Ireland but in other places, and this is what needs attention. There must be integration of environmental thinking with some of the larger policies on transport, energy and even in the competition in services directive, all of which have a direct impact on the environment.

We allude to that in the report and I believe we can be somewhat prescient about the future of Ireland through providing Ireland and ourselves with information of a local nature as well as of a European nature. European regulation works. It takes a long time to deliver changes, sometimes up to 30 years, so one must be patient. There is a collective responsibility at European level to ensure we stand by the directives we put in place. Our job is to ensure they are implemented well through auditing and monitoring the implementation of the policies that are debated and put in place in national legislation.

I will be happy to answer questions.

Professor McGlade met with the spokespersons and me this morning so we have had some discussions already. Professor McGlade has also had discussions with the Minister, Deputy Roche.

I welcome Professor McGlade and her team. We had an important discussion earlier today and I learned a great deal from it. Ireland's economic growth is unprecedented but the pressure on the environment is also unprecedented. How we manage that is our challenge. The professor's input into how we are or are not managing it is important. The key issue for Ireland is the problems we have with our greenhouse gas emissions. The benchmark we are using dates from before the economy took off and that is the problem.

Traditional industries, such as the cement industry in my constituency, are under severe pressure due to the targets they must meet. The economy is demanding more cement but the producers are being penalised for meeting that need. One argument they put to me is that they might have to close down one of the plants in Ireland and import cement from abroad to meet the targets. That would be catastrophic for employment. Hopefully, it will not happen. Does Professor McGlade have views on that? In a way, we are being benchmarked unfairly in that our economic growth only really started after that benchmark was established.

Professor McGlade

In the current discussion on emissions, one must take a view that we are in a period of high political sensitivity. Obviously the Kyoto discussion and the emissions trading are new. They are yet to be proven but are already showing that good market pricing can generate the right type of behaviour responses. In the context of a rapidly and still developing economy, I would suggest that we look seriously at our building materials and the way in which we create building stock. Tremendous innovations can come through the building directives and regulations.

More importantly, however — this is something I believe should come through the debates on emissions trading — there is in general an underpricing of the real resources. Emissions trading is taking us to a fairly realistic view of what carbon prices could be in the broader context. It has been a startling realisation that there is a price that people are willing to pay or may have to pay but, more importantly, that industries can make themselves more streamlined, effective and efficient through their own performance.

Before I start shipping my cement industry elsewhere, there is a genuine challenge to the whole cement industry to examine how it operates, the economies of scale involved and how it is taking forward innovations within the industry. That must be put against the way we go through the construction industry itself. Before one offsets that and loses the part of the economy in terms of local derivation of materials, we must price properly in light of the market that is already putting a heavy price on carbon emissions. That has yet to be done.

The problem is that if anybody imports cement from a different country, which may not have the same restrictions placed on it, one is really displacing jobs in Ireland to import a product that may be produced in a country that does not meet the same environmental requirements we have here. That is the argument that has been put to me.

Professor McGlade

It is the argument that is put in every single environmental service.

Professor McGlade

In the end, Europe will benefit by having the most efficient and effective use of resources. I am afraid that this is still the same old message which is short-term pain, long-term gain. It is a matter of evaluating our own resource use effectively within the context of where we use it.

The Deputy should take a long-term view.

I join with Deputy O'Dowd and others in welcoming Professor McGlade and her colleagues to the committee. This is the first time the European Environment Agency has addressed the committee on these issues. I was stuck by the point that Professor McGlade made about the way in which the EEA can map forward and show us a picture of what Ireland will be like when this period of building, growth and development is finished. As I understand it, that is based on the experience of developments elsewhere and the various assumptions that are made about the way in which the country is developing. The EEA has such a picture and we have heard Professor McGlade's assessment of Ireland's environmental obligations and the extent to which we are meeting them, or struggling to do so while coping with the legacy of past neglect.

As regards the time it would take to get things right, will Professor McGlade provide the committee with a road map concentrating on what this country should be doing in terms of its environmental agenda? We tend to respond to all issues as they arise when there is a case in the ECJ or a case is brought by the EU Commission about not complying with a particular directive, so it becomes an issue. In addition, an environmental problem may arise here to which we will respond. Given the EEA's overview of the Irish environment and its ability to compare that with other countries in terms of the European environment and economic development, what do we now need to address? In so far as she can, will Professor McGlade suggest what we need to do in practical terms to address some of these issues?

Professor McGlade

There are several key aspects. Let us be clear that there are few surprises in the environment. The signals are all there waiting for us to pick them up. If one takes time, one can anticipate a lot of the court cases that might be down the line in terms of forthcoming directives. We are not short of information about the environment but it is a question of using it in a way that gives one the ability to take on board some of the consequences of putting certain directives in place.

One of the crucial issues we see is that Europe is utterly connected. In other words, it does matter that monitoring ozone here in urban settings has a significant component that is being delivered in a trans-boundary process from continental Europe. Therefore, when one is debating and discussing what one's urban environment will look like in five or ten years' time, it is important to take account of the fact that many things will be delivered into the home environment because of trans-boundary processes. The agency has been running a process of scenarios for all of Europe but working at the scale of 25 hectares, which is a very fine scale. We can talk coherently about the impact of urbanisation, transport networks and an aging population. For example, the average age of farmers, which is far higher than in other sectors, means that many areas are likely to be abandoned. Afforestation processes are an additional factor, so we can see what all this looks like because they have in-built trajectories for the next five, ten or 15 years.

As regards the question of to what one should pay attention, without hesitation I would say that Ireland should pay close attention to its transport networks, the connectivity of people, and the way in which housing access and land prices are moving forward. Although the agricultural community is obviously strong here, over time it will begin to diminish in terms of the size of the workforce and occupancy. One can imagine that those families will be moving more towards urban settings so the price and location of housing, as well as the infrastructure to support urbanisation, will doubtless be the dominant dynamic of this country. We can already see what is the pattern. It will affect greenhouse gas emissions, water quality and the way in which children and the adult population are exposed to air pollution. A series of effects will come from simply deciding how and where people are going to live and work.

Unlike many other parts of Europe which are totally built up, Ireland has an open landscape. In Belgium and the Netherlands, people are being moved around areas that are already built up, so many of the future constraints are already in place. Ireland is one of the places where there is yet a lot to play for. Spatial planning and, in particular, Ireland's energy and transport policies still need to be played out. The EEA sees these as the dominant forces that will have significant implications for the environment.

I welcome the delegation and thank Professor McGlade and her staff for having taken the time to come to Ireland. When the report was published we all welcomed it. We all feel that it makes a substantial contribution to our understanding of the trends and challenges in European and national environmental policy. The report received considerable attention in the Irish media. Those of us in Opposition took it as evidence of the Government's failure to tackle some of the significant environmental challenges. Those in Government questioned the report's methodology and undertook to raise questions surrounding that methodology with the EEA. I am sure they have taken that opportunity.

Broadly speaking, is Professor McGlade happy with the methodology adopted and with its application to Ireland? In a globalised economy, does the Irish Government still have the capacity to make significant changes to the trends occurring? I suspect it does but I would welcome Professor McGlade's thoughts on that. Does she believe national governments are well positioned to effect change in the significant areas with which she is concerned?

Professor McGlade

The one thing about being a technical agency with political connections is that we must check both ends. In the preparation of this report, we were at pains to ensure there was broad consultation — and I mean proper consultation — with all the member states on the methodology used. It went through several high level discussions. Member states were represented through ministries at director general level. That was then taken down to our technical groups. The methodology had been well shaken down.

One can argue about the indicators chosen. These are the most important indicators because they have political targets attached to them. Therefore, there is an assumption that if member states have agreed to abide by them, then they need to be assessed by them. I have no doubt but that they are the right set and that the right methodology sits behind them. We are transparent and are always open to anyone who wants to scrutinise that, whether academic or external groups or otherwise. I am a professor of mathematics and probably exert more emphasis on that than perhaps my predecessor but, nevertheless, I am confident that across the board of the 300 people, etc., we have a robust methodology.

Whether or not one likes the outcome is another matter. That is why we chose, as ever, a no surprises approach where we worked with the countries to give the right of reply. That is why the commentary has arisen. There is an index, an indicator approach, and then there is a commentary which goes along with it which enables Members, the Government and Government scientists to come back with the good look stories, that is, what has actually been working rather than simply the bad news.

I would like to recount to Members what other member states have said about the report and what the Minister from Sweden said, which was then picked up by many other Ministers at the Council. The Swedish Minister said they picked up the report, essentially saw themselves reflected in it and considered it to be a true reflection. That has good and bad parts in it. Similarly, the Minister from Spain said there were embarrassments but that she recognised Spain in this report. If one recognises oneself in this report, whether it is good or bad and whether or not it is government policy, this is the reality and is what Ireland is beginning to look like.

If one reads the text, it is not saying Ireland has poor environmental quality. It is saying it faces a lot of challenges which need to be addressed. In my discussions with the Minister, people from the EPA and this ministry, Ireland, as a country, is doing as well as any other in addressing those challenges. However, there is a legacy in Ireland. It has a long way to go in some areas to catch up. Not everyone's background environmental conditions are the same. It comes back to every single part of the debate. When nitrates or otherwise are discussed, it is very important to remember the background against which Ireland will apply this policy or directive. We happen to sit and work in Denmark and we know it struggles with certain background conditions and levels relating to water quality. Knowing that, one must make an extra effort and sometimes one must be patient and wait longer.

This methodology is a snap-shot and a position in time but we would like to progress it because we recognise indicators are the public relations version of an enormous amount of information distilled out, somewhat like GDP. What we would like is a more much rigorous accounting procedure which we can now do. We have a tested methodology and we think we can work with the statistical offices to help bring that forward which actually goes to the heart of the problem — it will even address cement. It has to do with services and eco-system functioning and how Ireland, as a member state, will require and need to use resources over the next ten or 15 years. We are happy with the methodology and generally happy with the policies which have been put in place and implemented in response to the challenges here.

I welcome the delegation. Benchmarking, from where Ireland has come in terms of a low housing stock, an increasing population, poor infrastructural development and considerable increases in road demands and transport have been alluded to. As politicians, we must take those issues into account and try to explain them as best we can. Everything in the report is not negative. A lot of positive things are highlighted in it, one of which is economic growth. That is positive and allows one to do things with the economy.

In the context of global warning and greenhouse gas emissions, Ireland's emissions are far less than countries such as India, China, Brazil and Russia. Is there any way to address the considerable greenhouse gas emissions in those countries? Does the agency have counterparts in those countries which it might meet regularly to discuss those issues? Is it capable of monitoring what is happening there? No matter what Europe and Ireland do to address the issue of greenhouse gas emissions, they will not have a huge impact in the overall scheme of things if these countries do not come on board. Are they making any effort to come on board?

Does the agency have views or a policy on incineration? Has it clear guidelines on whether it is acceptable? We talk about alternative energy and about fossil fuel depletion but what is the agency's policy on nuclear power?

Professor McGlade

I will answer the question on the global outreach of Europe and I will then come back to the question asked by the earlier speaker as to whether Ireland and Europe can do anything. There is no doubt in our minds — we have been looking at policy effectiveness very carefully — that Europe is still the leader in setting standards. One can say that is all well and good but we now see a knock-on effect that by setting high standards, some of the highest in the world, it has a direct effect on our suppliers, on other markets and in the global market. We can document and show that.

Fighting for high standards means the rest of the world follows on. It is clear it is following on at a quicker pace. For example, in regard to the WEEE Directive, American manufacturing industries are manufacturing to that standard. The more we set out our stall as to what is good in terms of achieving the environmental outcomes, there is a high degree of probability that the rest of the world will follow on. We should not stop doing that, small as we are in some senses.

We have a massive impact. Our footprint in the world is large, so we have capacity to manipulate and influence markets and to influence resources. By our purchasing power and importing of resources across our borders, we are driving much of the global economy. We should not kid ourselves about that.

That brings me to the role of China and India. We have a duty of care — Europe must revisit this more than once — to ensure that when we demand steel and other raw and processed resources from other parts of the world, we apply the standards we expect to see here. That is good environmental auditing, and we should do more of it. We have the mechanisms to do it and we can track and trace.

Through international conventions, the agency, together with Commission services, participates in many of these settings and we work directly and bilaterally with the US Environmental Protection Agency and the Chinese Environmental Protection Agency, CEPA. We have ongoing dialogue with them to try to encourage them to bring on line information reporting. Significant progress has been made in that regard.

An agency such as ours is the Trojan horse, if one wishes to put it that way, in trying to find out what is happening. We participate provocatively in places where we can produce models of, for example, the trans-boundary hemispheric transport from China and India into the European context which is persuasive in the international setting. By applying our best science, good thinking and a good policy setting, we undoubtedly have an impact. We have significant contacts and networks. The good news is that increasingly they see that how we in Europe operate, with this agency and with the IONET — the network across the member states — reporting transparently and openly on information, is seen as a standard to which others aspire where citizens participate, etc.

The citizenry of India and other countries are no less interested in the environment. In fact, they are more so. When we talk with our counterparts outside Europe, the most pressing issue for most countries is fresh water, access to resources, access to clean land and clean air. We as an agency have a reach far beyond our size and Europe has a reach far beyond its economy. It is worth sticking closely to standards but instead of merely setting standards, we now need to deliver on them. Leadership is the key, others will follow.

What about incineration and nuclear power?

Professor McGlade

We have produced an outlook report. We wanted to look at the future of Europe in terms of energy and to ask whether there is a low carbon future for Europe. The answer is "yes". We have explored different mixes, including nuclear. We must recognise, of course, that many member states have nuclear power embedded in their energy mix. France and Finland are not likely to withdraw from that. As the committee probably will be aware, the way they are delivering it is quite different. The Finnish industry is entirely privately funded, primarily to support private sector industries. France of course has taken a different view.

We see the risks and the benefits. Interestingly, one of the major risks for the French nuclear industry is the lack of water. Climate change brings an entire other dimension, from an environmental perspective, to the energy mix because it compromises some of the hydro-powered schemes and it compromises even some of the cooling of the nuclear power plants. There is no simple "yes" or "no" answer, but we look at the potential for nuclear power to contribute to a low carbon economy and it certainly has its place.

When we look to renewables such as biofuels or renewables coming from biomass, we have some significant issues to raise because the large-scale production — almost mono-cultures — of some of the bio-crops such as rape seed oil, willows, etc., damages other parts of the environment such as biodiversity, high nature value areas, etc. We have done much analysis across Europe of the pros and cons of going down different routes, even in the renewable sector, and I would be happy to make that information available to the committee through the secretariat because it is not as simple as one might think. We had a discussion this morning about the use of biofuels here and the aversion to using ethanol in various settings. It is totally appropriate if, for example, it can be mobilised and the subsidy structures are correct.

Overall we can see that there is a low carbon future for Europe. We need not be dependent upon the fossil fuel heritage which exists.

I thank Professor McGlade for her most informative and interesting presentation. My first question, which Deputy Kelleher dealt with, relates to research. Is Professor McGlade happy with the research on the health and safety elements of incineration? There is a genuine fear among all peoples within Europe about the health implications.

Professor McGlade spoke about transport networks and carbon emissions. Are we in Ireland investing sufficiently in research and development on alternative energies in this area? How does our level of such investment compare with that of other EU countries?

Professor McGlade

Incineration need not be bad — quite the opposite. We are world leaders in technologies for incineration but of course there is an urban myth. No doubt there is a genuine concern among the public about proliferation of incineration. A poorly run incinerator, whether it is good technology or not, will still be a health hazard. Let us be clear. An incinerator must be well managed and monitored and information should be made available to the public to build public confidence as well as a required technical competence. I would applaud, for example, the go ahead for an incinerator here where the emissions information was constantly available to people.

The evidence is not good overall in terms of long-term human health. I will be careful here in what I say. Incinerators are just one part of the mix of living in today's exposure environment. One must imagine that throughout life a person, from birth through childhood to adulthood, is receiving low doses of a vast range of chemicals — from cars, from particulates, from water. It is a steady, slow accumulation of exposure to toxins, chemicals and a variety of things. We are especially concerned about this low dosage, long exposure issue. Any additional burden sits on top of a mix in which one can genuinely find evidence that the human health or the immune system of many individuals is already compromised. I would be confident in any setting to say that a well-regulated, well-managed incinerator will emit extremely low levels of dioxins and other chemicals which, in their own right, do not present a problem. However, one must remember that this is not in isolation and therefore we will continue to get confounding information from the scientific community and also from the medical community as to what that additional burden means. We are looking at the burden of exposure across Europe compounded by living near roads and places where there are many particulates in the air. The answers are not all in front of us.

The Senator asked if we need more research. We need more research, not necessarily on individual sectoral outputs but on the human health aspect of Europe's population on the basis of this long-term exposure leading to a burden which ultimately will compromise us. I can only point to a pristine environment to bring this point firmly home to the Senator. In the Arctic, on the east coast of Greenland one will find a small population of 2,500. They were enjoying an increase in longevity. Women had, on average, an age span into their 60s and increasing. They had a rigorous diet. With no access to supermarkets, obviously they eat fish, seals and polar bears. Climate change is one issue that is affecting them but the food chain has not really changed. Over the past 15 years we have seen, through the burden of successive accumulation of chemicals, that the life expectancy of women has been reduced by ten years. The body burden that they have been able to accumulate — as there is no industry nearby, one imagines this is getting to them through the air, through the marine food chain and through the food they eat accumulating in materials, in livers, etc. — is enough to reduce their life expectancy by ten years in a pristine environment. They are not exposed to cars, tyres, traffic and all the other stuff. The concentration of our efforts should be on this accumulation over time from all those things to which we are exposed.

Is Professor McGlade fairly sure their diet is not changing?

Professor McGlade

Not within the lifespan of the people who have now been monitored. There was a long study done by the Danes and by many others. We continually bring this up and the Arctic Council raises the fact that this is the dumping ground of Europe's chemicals. I accept that they are many thousands of kilometres away but they live in a pristine environment. They are not sitting in cities, with cars and everything else. My answer to Senator Bannon is that dioxins, etc., and incinerators in their own right are perfectly acceptable; the key factor is their setting in the larger part of society.

What about research and development?

Professor McGlade

It must be more focused and directed. There is a great need for more research and development in a particular area.

I would like the professor to elaborate on the international problems we are experiencing, including Greenland, which is a case in point. That pollution could be coming from lots of places, including the United States, Europe and elsewhere. Where is it coming from?

Professor McGlade

Mostly from Europe.

There is major concern in regard to the health and safety aspects of food products coming in from other countries which do not comply with the rigorous standards which apply in Ireland. A case in point is Brazilian beef. If other countries want access to our markets, should they meet certain criteria in the context of their responsibility to the environment? I am not referring necessarily to the country but to the companies involved, such as big steel companies and cement and fertiliser plants. Should these companies adopt the same environmental standards that companies producing the same products in Europe adopt? Should this aspect be examined in the context of globalisation and the opening up of markets? Should there be comparable trading positions? Currently some countries do not have very high environmental standards. Should this be part of international trade negotiations and agreements?

Professor McGlade

I have always said so. I said to Commissioner Peter Mandelson on a number of occasions that we must ensure the environmental standard to which we aspire are adhered to throughout the global market. Getting the price right is one aspect. We must encourage innovation which would encourage people to leave behind environmentally sub-standard resources. This will require political will. I have no doubt that we can set the standards, but adhering to them in the political regime, such as in the Doha round, for example, will only come from talking to one's agriculture counterparts and political counterparts in other areas. It can be done if the political will exists.

To return to the incineration issue, is Professor McGlade saying that, provided an incinerator is well managed and has state-of-the-art technology, we should stop exercising ourselves about incineration and become more concerned about airborne pollution such as that coming from the exhausts of cars and so on?

Professor McGlade

If a company is forced to display continually its emissions, it will make sure it never exceeds the standards set. While it is a self-regulating process, it must be audited and checked. To put it in context, it plays a rather small part in our pollution problems compared to the unregulated and very difficult to control growth in transport, which not only affects our greenhouse gas emissions but roadside and, therefore, the urban environment. We can preoccupy ourselves with a great deal of public concern and avoid or neglect an area which is generating more pollution into the environment.

Does the professor regard it as preferable to landfill?

Professor McGlade

There are few countries who can afford to use landfill as anything other than a short-term option. The days of landfill will soon come to an end in almost all of Europe. We are undertaking a study on this aspect.

Will it come to an end?

Professor McGlade

With all the will in the world, we have yet to get to grips with waste streams, household arisings and many areas of waste. Until we can do so, it is obvious that landfill sites will become more and more scarce.

I am very interested in the points made by the professor. An incinerator is being built two miles from my home, even though we have not yet got a recycling centre. It appears that we have put the cart before the horse. Perhaps we should have fewer incinerators rather than more and they should be located near to where the greatest quantity of waste is produced rather than in the middle of the countryside. These are key policy issues.

I am interested in what the professor said about a study in Greenland where ladies live ten years less than was the case in the past, which is startling. I am shocked to hear that. Could the professor send us the data on that issue if it is available? We should study this aspect which has significant implications for everyone.

Professor McGlade

Yes.

Did the professor say that the life expectancy for women in Greenland, which is a pristine environment, is 60 years of age?

Professor McGlade

It has now decreased.

Even at 60, it is still much lower than in other countries.

Professor McGlade

It is relatively high compared to the case in the past.

The professor said that some of the major challenges for Ireland are transport, housing and land issues. When the report was published, a debate was taking place here on one-off rural housing. There are historic and economic reasons for such an attachment to one-off rural housing. Is the professor saying that increased urbanisation is the way we should go and that we should not pursue a policy of one-off rural housing? What is the challenge in the Irish context?

Professor McGlade

Any community of approximately 50,000 people will attract a certain requirement for infrastructure and services. One should expect that a community of 50,000 will want to be connected to the 100,000 community and the 250,000 community. There is a rippling effect. Even if there is rural development around smaller communities, they will want to be connected to the next node and so on. It is not that it is a good or bad idea, but one will cut off a certain feature for oneself.

Does Switzerland's data not tally with the professor's broad framework, because there are very few indicators included in the agency's assessment?

Professor McGlade

Switzerland is not a member, but it is about to announce on 1 April that it is a full member of the agency at which time all the data will be available. It is a little white patch in the middle of Europe.

There has been rigorous questioning. I thank Professor McGlade and her colleagues for travelling to Dublin this afternoon. We awaited with anticipation her arrival for several weeks and the meeting has lived up to our expectations. I am grateful to her for a useful exchange of views, which has given us much food for thought in our environmental planning for the future.

In appreciation of her visit, I have a small presentation for the three members of the delegation on behalf of our members.

Professor McGlade

Members might like to put follow-up questions through the secretariat. Members are welcome not just to use the website but to write to us directly. Please feel free to do so if you want to follow-up on certain matters.

Or visit Copenhagen?

Professor McGlade

Exactly, come and visit us.

I appreciate that.

Top
Share