JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Wednesday, 21 Jun 2006

EU Council of Environment Ministers Meeting — Ministerial Presentation.

Vice Chairman

I welcome the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and his officials to the meeting. I thank him for his continuing engagement with the committee in advance of the quarterly meetings at the EU Council of Environment Ministers. His briefings have become an integral part of the joint committee's annual work programme and the committee appreciates the time he and his officials are taking to attend today.

These meetings provide the committee with important updates on EU matters and are a part of the EU scrutiny process introduced by the Government to enhance the role of the Oireachtas in the EU legislative process. We noted the Minister's recommendations at our last meeting and endeavoured to familiarise ourselves with some of the issues raised. We visited the EPA board at its office to discuss its technologies programme, which is most interesting. If the Minister has further recommendations for us, we would be pleased to hear them.

I propose that, following the Minister's presentation, we have a question-and-answer session, mindful that our time is limited and that we must conclude at 10.45 a.m.

Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government (Deputy Roche)

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee. There will be seven substantive items on the agenda of the upcoming meeting, three of which flow directly from the EU sixth environment action programme, namely, thematic strategies for urban environment, waste prevention and recycling, and air-quality legislative programmes.

In March we held a policy debate on the thematic strategy for the prevention and recycling of waste and at next week's meeting we will agree conclusions on this. The core objective of the strategy is to make Europe a recycling society by using the internal market as a driver to optimise recycling. The strategy will also propose the improvement of the regulatory environment through modernisation and streamlining of the waste legislation.

We will also agree conclusions on the thematic strategy for the urban environment. This has been before the Council previously and we have discussed it here. My Austrian colleague, Joe Pröll, arranged an informal but interesting and wide-ranging meeting in his home province last month. One point I raised there, which will be of interest to the Vice Chairman of this committee, was that there is no one-size-fits-all formula for urban patterns in Europe. That session in Austria was open to the general public. Another point raised was that a top-down solution is not the best way but we should look for a more organic approach, growing from the bottom up.

We will also discuss our general approach to the proposal for a directive on ambient air quality and cleaner air for Europe. We discussed this in December and in March. The directive is a key element in the overall strategy framework the European Union is putting together. I have welcomed the proposed directive for its rationalisation and simplification of existing air-quality legislation. The present text for the Council reflects a high level of ambition for the objective of the sixth environmental action programme.

At Council next week I will support the general approach set out by the Presidency, which hopes to reach political agreement on the proposal for a directive for the assessment and management of flood risks. In addition to my officials, Mr. Tom Sherlock, from the Office of Public Works, OPW, is here to deal with this item, which we discussed in March. The aim is to reduce and manage flood-related risks to human health, the environment, infrastructure and property. It will require significant integration with the water framework directive. The proposal is broadly in line with the OPW proposals to implement our national policy, which is set out in the 2004 report of the flood review group.

The Council will return to the subject of genetically modified organisms, GMOs, at the June meeting, building on the discussions in December and March last. These discussions have already yielded positive outcomes, in particular the Commission has proposed a series of key actions aimed at improving the scientific consistency and transparency of GMO decision-making, which we will all welcome. One of the Commission's key proposals relates to the potential long-term effects of GMOs on the environment, which will be addressed more explicitly in risk assessments.

Discussions at the Council will centre on two issues. We will consider the Commission's proposals, which I strongly welcome, and discuss the role of the precautionary principle in the assessment and authorisation of GMOs, thus developing a debate that took place at the Presidency's conference in April. There appear to be differing views on this matter among member states and I expect further debate will be needed if a common understanding is to be achieved.

A new financial instrument for the environment is also on the agenda for next week. It may yet be taken as an "A" item, which means the Council will not have a substantive discussion on the matter. The instrument has been before the Council on a number of previous occasions and the Council reached partial political agreement on it in December. Next week, the Council will adopt a common position on LIFE+, which I will support.

The last substantive item on the agenda is an exchange of views on the European Union biofuels strategy and the biomass action plan. These have been the subject of extensive debate and span a number of policy areas, including energy, transport, agriculture and the environment. Ireland is strongly supportive of the biomass action plan, which addresses the current policy gap in the heating sector, an area in which the Government recently introduced some popular grants. Barriers to the development of renewable transport fuel markets and the potential to develop biomass electricity will also be discussed.

A number of issues are of particular note to Ireland, including the commitment to review the energy crops scheme. Recognition of the need to balance use of biomass for energy against other uses such as food is important to us. The review of the relevant legislation will allow for higher blends of biofuels and the emphasis on research, development and demonstration is an important dimension for us. In keeping with our strong focus on subsidiarity we welcome the recognition that member states should have flexibility to choose specific goals and policies. Ireland has already advanced a series of biomass initiatives. The most recent budget provided a five-year excise relief package for biofuels worth €205 million. Other measures include a higher take-up for biomass electricity under the recently launched renewable energy feed-in tariff programme, a five-year biomass commercial heating programme worth €22 million, a five-year domestic grants programme covering biomass technologies worth €27 million and initiatives to stimulate biomass production in the agriculture sector.

The agenda features 12 items under the "Other Business" heading, most of which are information points. One item is the Euro 5 regulation, that is, the car and van emissions regulation, which was previously discussed by the joint committee. Five further items are reports on conferences held by the European Union on REACH, sustainable development, waste, the North Sea and green public procurement. Another three items are information pieces from the Presidency for international meetings on the Cartagena protocol on biosafety and the convention on biological diversity and persistent organic pollutants, respectively. Three items placed on the agenda at the request of other delegations relate to water scarcity and drought, biowaste and the import of wild birds to the European Union, respectively.

That is a brief outline of the agenda for the forthcoming meeting. The circulated note contains a more comprehensive outline.

Deputy McCormack

One of the objectives of the forthcoming meeting of the Environment Council is to discuss the proposed directive to reduce and manage flood-related risks in respect of human health. Will any specific areas in Ireland be affected by the proposed directive?

Deputy Roche

Yes. As the Deputy will be aware, the Office of Public Works is carrying out a major study on areas prone to flooding. This involves mapping areas that have experienced floods. The proposal also has implications because the directive will require member states, including Ireland, to undertake an assessment of river basins where flood risks exist or could arise in the future. Clearly, this will be important in terms of physical planning.

The proposed directive also requires member states to develop flood hazard and flood risk maps for river basins considered to be at significant risk of flooding. This work is ongoing in the Office of Public Works and I understand that it is well advanced. Member states will also be required to prepare flood risk management plans to address and manage significant risk and consult and make information available to the public. This final requirement, which is probably the point of the Deputy's question, is a very important issue, particularly when property is being sold. It is amazing that people quickly forget that floods have struck certain areas. It is important, from the point of view of consumer protection, that those who are buying property or entering into property arrangements should be aware of flood risks. The final requirement will be to carry out a review of the risk assessment maps and management plans at six-year intervals. The arrangement will require the production of risk assessments, the mapping of areas at risk, the making available to the public of this information and the upgrading of available information every six years.

The Office of Public Works and my Department are involved in this area, with the former appointed lead agency in late 2004 by the Government. As I indicated, work is under way in these matters. The proposals are a welcome development for those who have experienced flooding, including many of my constituents, as it will alert members of the public to the areas in which risk exists.

Deputy McCormack

I am disappointed that the Minister proposes to have a further study carried out. I recall that a sum of £1 million was spent to study an area of south Galway which flooded in 1995. Not a sod was turned, apart from in one small scheme I organised which was paid for at a cost of £125,000 from other funds. The project relieved flooding in a specific area of south Galway. We are sick and tired of hearing about studies being carried out without action being taken to address the flooding problem. The River Shannon has been studied for 100 years or more and nothing can or will ever be done about the problem. It is ridiculous to spend money on studies rather than on real work. I know this from practical experience.

Deputy Roche

The Deputy misunderstands the entire purpose of——

Deputy McCormack

The Minister need not worry. I have misunderstood nothing.

Deputy Roche

The Deputy certainly has misunderstood.

Deputy McCormack

No, I have not.

Deputy Roche

The purpose of the directive is to map areas that experience floods and this work is being done. For example, mapping of Kilkenny, Carrick-on-Suir, Sixmilebridge, Annacotty, Duleek, the Tolka in Dublin and the Fingal and Meath areas is either complete or almost complete. The directive requires that maps be produced to give members of the public access to information. It does not require specific actions to be undertaken. Studies are also under way in Arklow, Bray, Portarlington, Tullamore and Mullingar and further work is under way in Clonmel, Fermoy, Mallow, Ennis, Enniscorthy, Carlow and Waterford. The process provided for in the directive is that member states should provide public information on mapping. It does not stipulate that drains be dug or whatever else the Deputy has in mind.

Deputy McCormack

I do not blame the Minister for the incidents I describe because they took place before he took office. However, reports and maps are already available for use.

Deputy Roche

That is not the case.

Deputy Cuffe

I thank the Minister for attending. Members appreciate the opportunity to engage in dialogue on issues of this nature.

On item 3 on the proposed agenda, flood risk, will the Minister outline the relationship between the Office of Public Works and planning applications? I assume the precautionary principle is applied when determining whether planning permission is granted for development on flood plains. The Minister and Deputy Gilmore will be familiar with a particular case in Bray, a town built, for the most part, on a hill and divided by the River Dargle. The north bank of the river has a flood plain, much of which is covered by the People's Park and a golf course. In recent days, planning permission was granted for a significant urban development on the flood plain, some of it extending to nine storeys in height.

Deputy Roche

They will be safe on the top.

Deputy Cuffe

While I am sure everyone on the penthouse floor will be safe, there are legitimate concerns that the proposed development may well act as a bottleneck on the River Dargle and could lead to flooding up-stream. I accept that particular planning applications cannot be discussed. However, the Minister's colleagues on Bray Town Council ardently supported that application and our own councillors were opposed to it or certainly had concerns about it. Perhaps the Minister can touch on the relationship between the Office of Public Works' advice and regional guidelines and how that relates back to the way in which particular planning applications are considered.

Deputy Roche

I thank Deputy Cuffe. He is correct. He is aware that, as Minister, I am specifically prohibited in law from discussing an individual planning application. I have my own views about the flooding, given that my back garden is in the flood plain. However, let us leave that issue to one side.

Deputy Cuffe's question is a good one which demonstrates the value of the work being done here. For example, later this year the OPW will launch a website. This is a good way of communicating flood records to people. If one lives in a town such as Bray, where there has been a series of floods over the years, it is extraordinary how quickly the public memory fades, not in the people who have lived in the area that is flooded all the time but among new people coming into the area. The website is important and will be helpful for people proposing changes and even for those buying land for development. The website should be up and running as soon as possible. The records go back to the early 1900s, which is useful. It will give a permanent record of where flooding has occurred so people will know the risks associated with particular areas.

The OPW is working with local authorities. In the case of Wicklow, to which Deputy Cuffe referred, as part of the work that is being done on the flood assessment, the OPW is working closely with Bray and Arklow urban district councils to produce the flood map.

On the question of planning, it is the case that there is a requirement. One of the issues on which my Department is notifying local authorities is better guidance on flood risk for planners. Advice for planners on the assessment of flood risk is part of the work that is ongoing and I expect it will improve planning to a significant degree. Guidance for local authorities in planning for and dealing effectively with emergencies caused by flooding is another aspect of the work. This is a welcome move by Europe because it will give us a common basis.

Deputy Cuffe

My question relates to the here and now, in terms of how a planning authority determines the potential flood risk of a site that may well be prone to flooding.

Deputy Roche

A planning authority would be expected to work closely with the OPW. Deputy Cuffe referred to Bray. I do not wish to and cannot discuss an individual planning case but in regard to——

Deputy Cuffe

Will there be regional guidance?

Deputy Roche

Yes. With regard to flood protection works in a given town, work would be done in conjunction with the OPW because it has the records. This is quite a revolutionary step and a very welcome one, in that there will be a permanent visible record of floods.

We are both aware from previous planning debates in which we have been involved that some developments are contentious. I recall a case, which related to a part of Wicklow other than Bray, where a long and active debate took place in the course of producing a development plan as to whether a potential site was on a flood plain. It turned out there had been flooding on a field in 1986 during Hurricane Charlie, but that was the first time it had ever happened. It is important that we should have a clear record. I expect it will be helpful.

Deputy Cuffe

If I may, I have two other minor points to make.

Vice Chairman

We will take all the questions together. Deputy Gilmore should be next. We are very pressed for time.

Deputy Cuffe

I will be brief. I had not finished my contribution. With regard to No. 6 on the proposed agenda, has the Minister had any proposals to produce an urban policy? With the significant urbanisation experienced in recent years, it would make sense to have planning guidance not just for high-density residential units but to have a broad-based urban policy.

My final question is in regard to No. 10 (a), on motor vehicles and emissions. Does the Minister have any plans to change the current annual tax regime, which is at the same level for every vehicle under 1,000 cc in capacity and every vehicle with over 3,500 cc in capacity? Is it proposed to modify the scale for vehicles under 1,000 cc or over 3,500 cc? A carefully worked-out scale exists between 1,000 cc and 3,500 cc, but essentially it is flat-lined at 1,000 cc and 3,500 cc, which does not reflect the type of vehicles available in the marketplace.

Deputy Roche

As the Deputy stated, the scale is flat-lined but at a very high rate for vehicles over 3,500 cc. The next big change in this area will be emissions-related duty fixing. That is something on which we will probably agree.

Deputy Cuffe

I would welcome that.

Deputy Roche

Nothing specific is planned in that area at the moment but it is an area on which I believe we would share a common view as to how to go forward.

Deputy Cuffe

How do we move it forward?

Deputy Roche

As the Deputy is aware, currently we have set high excise rates on, for example, the 3,500 cc engines.

Deputy Cuffe

There are many cars with 4,500 cc and 5,500 cc engines.

Deputy Roche

I have no specific proposals to hit the SUV market at present and I cannot speculate on future budgetary strategies. The general tenor of the Deputy's question is whether we could have something more closely related to emissions levels and in the longer term that is the direction in which we will go. To answer Deputy Cuffe's question frankly and truthfully, there is no specific proposal in that area at the moment but we do take a general view on it.

With regard to the thematic strategy on urban environment, I made the point at the meeting in Austria that there could be an attempt to force us all into a one-size-fits-all strategy which would not suit Ireland because we have a different pattern of settlement here. The various planning policies are now integrated, from the national spatial strategy to regional development plans down to the level of the basic development plans for each authority. In each member state there is a sui generis approach to planning that suits the specifics of each state. We have low density. Even in the centre of cities we still do not build as high as is the case elsewhere. That is a pattern that has emerged in this country. The benefit of that discussion was that, first, there was a debate on what the urban environment generally means and, second, there was a recognition that subsidiarity would come into play.

Deputy Gilmore

Arising from the two thematic discussions on the prevention and recycling of waste and on the urban environment, is it envisaged that there will be new proposals for European legislation in both these areas? What specific European legislation is envisaged arising from those two thematic strategies?

What timeframe is envisaged for the enactment of the European legislation on the directives on air quality and flood risks? What legislation must be introduced to give effect to the regulation on air quality and the European directive on flood risk? Many of the issues arising regarding flood risk are associated with development, both past and present. Given that we know what is envisaged in the new directive on flood risk, would it not be easier to put in place our own law in this regard rather than wait to transpose the directive when it is ready? This would prevent us from having to retrofit existing developments.

Deputy Grealish

I welcome the Minister and his comments on the assessment and management of flood risk. The issue arises in many areas. Serious problems will be caused for people in Oranmore, where Galway County Council granted planning permission to build on a flood plain. I am delighted matters such as this are being addressed.

On Deputy Gilmore's point concerning No. 5 on the agenda, will the Minister outline the proposals in this regard and those concerning the recycling of waste?

Deputy Roche

I will group the questions together. On flooding, we must obviously wait until the directive is available before transposing it formally. I agree with the Deputy regarding the carrying out of works, in respect of which the OPW is well advanced. I explained to Deputy Cuffe that the whole purpose is to elevate the level of public knowledge. Work is already under way and the transposition work will take place once the directive has been agreed.

Deputy Gilmore referred to the air quality directive. It will be some time before it comes close to being adopted. The European Parliament has still to have an input regarding the directive and therefore there will be a delay. The Deputy asked what the directive will achieve. It will consolidate existing legislation in this area, although I am not sure it will cover new ground. One important issue, which we discussed at a previous meeting, will concern microparticulates, PM2.5 in particular. This is particularly relevant to a number of member states. It is relevant to us all but less so in Ireland because we do not produce automobiles. The issue is causing particular concern in countries that do produce them.

Bearing in mind the level of environmental awareness among the public, I said at the meeting in Austria that Europe, far from being disadvantaged by having high standards, particularly regarding emissions, including particulate emissions, is at an advantage because there is a world-wide demand for new motor vehicles that cause less pollution.

On achieving the objective of the urban settlement strategy, there is no proposal for mandatory integrated environmental management. It is more likely that broad guidelines will be produced and that they will be integrated into our development planning process. As to whether there will be a mandatory arrangement or legal framework, I do not believe this will happen. There will be a revision of the waste framework directive, which has been on the Statute Book for a long time and which has served Europe very well. It dates from the mid-1970s. The proposals to revise it are already in the Oireachtas Library.

Vice Chairman

I thank the Minister for attending and wish him well at the Council meeting. I thank the members and apologise for the tight time constraint.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.45 a.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 5 July 2006.