JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Wednesday, 13 Sep 2006

Heritage Council: Presentation.

Chairman

The joint committee will now address the Heritage Council draft strategic plan for the period 2007 to 2011, a copy of which was circulated to members prior to this meeting. I welcome Mr. Michael Starrett, chief executive officer of the Heritage Council, and thank him for attending. We will hear a brief presentation which will be followed by a question and answer session with members.

Before Mr. Starrett begins his presentation, I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Michael Starrett

I will speak for about seven or eight minutes. I am pleased to have the opportunity to present to the committee the council's draft strategic plan for the next five years. The plan is subject to public consultation until 29 September. The interest shown by the committee is timely. The council welcomes the interest in this important aspect of our national life, whether it is social, environmental or economic.

The Heritage Council was established 11 years ago, a short period in the semi-State context, and has specific functions under the Heritage Act 1995 to propose policies for the national heritage; to promote interest, education, knowledge of and pride in the national heritage; to co-operate with public authorities, educational bodies and other organisations and persons in the promotion of the functions of the council; and to promote the co-ordination of all activities relating to its functions. It is clear and concise legislation. Since its establishment, the council has chosen to exercise its statutory functions by publishing a strategic plan, which has been endorsed by successive Ministers during that period. The current draft is the third plan and the first to be subject to such an extensive period of public consultation. This reflects the growing number of partners and stakeholders that work closely with the council. It also indicates a sustained increase in the levels of public interest in all matters heritage.

Public interest in, and attention to, our heritage has grown substantially since 1995. The Heritage Council commissioned two surveys carried out by Lansdowne Market Research in 1999 and 2005, which have shown that the percentage interest and involvement in and the significance attached to the national heritage by the public is on the increase. The results are quite clear. The recent huge success of Heritage Week, now co-ordinated by the council, further illustrates the significance and value attached by the general public to this aspect of their lives. This includes sharing enjoyment of that heritage and accessibility to it. It belongs to the people and is not the preserve of experts. Research due to be published in the autumn seeks to show the significant economic contribution conservation of our heritage provides, as well as the quality of life and environment it so clearly delivers.

In developing our new plan we have sought to build on the achievements of the first two, which have been evaluated and which have clearly shown that what we said we would do we have achieved. The plan also builds on the significant contribution the Heritage Council has made in delivering on major national and international commitments such as halting the decline in biodiversity by 2010, which is a global concern; implementation of the water framework directive, under which the council has specific responsibility for the awareness campaigns and has a Heritage Day which ties in with Heritage Week; improved strategic planning decisions, working with local authorities and submitting proposals to Government under the national development plan; highlighting the value of our villages where many people live; reaching targets set in the European Landscape Convention; and, in terms of enjoyment and accessibility, developing walking routes and tying these in with aspects of heritage such as the Beara Breifne Way and the pilgrim paths. All this is done to secure heritage in the minds of the citizens of today for future generations

The Heritage Council is best known for its policy frameworks and statements but our grants programmes and partnerships are the public interface most widely recognised. Our primary partnership sees 26 heritage officers in post in local authorities, which ensures local people are fully involved in our work in the widest range of initiatives. All this is designed to give responsibility for our heritage back to local people in a structured and strategic way. A number of the structures we had put in place tended to disenfranchise people from their heritage and we are reassessing the effectiveness of those structures.

Local authorities, and by inference local communities, through the established partnership with the Heritage Council, need to be effectively resourced if the partnerships that have been set in train are to flourish. The economic research to which I referred will lend further weight to the case for the increase in financial allocation the council is seeking to fully implement its plan. The amounts involved are small in terms of global Government spending. They are also to be clearly targeted at service delivery and project support, not on expanding administration and bureaucracy. For example, our administration costs are 16% of our budget, a figure we are not looking to increase.

The Heritage Council has a clear vision for translating the statute and the finance into making it work, which is to work in partnership to ensure our national heritage is accessible to, and enjoyed by, all members of society. That vision is subject to public consultation and it is not etched in stone. The council has also set out that its work will be underpinned by three core principles: partnership and co-operation; sustainability and quality of life; and equality, social inclusion and accessibility. All work will relate to the following themes: raising awareness and appreciation; heritage research, analysis and evaluation; evidence based policy advice; heritage infrastructure; and best practice in conservation and sustainable heritage management. Each theme has a long list of actions, which was circulated earlier and I do not propose to go through them. It is important that we have a structure in place to deliver on them and that we and others are effectively resourced to do so.

The Heritage Council is a relatively small organisation, encouraging synergies. It requires its 15 staff to be flexible and adaptable in all their activities. As a small organisation, the council has also become very skilled in maximising its impact through carefully targeting its resources and enabling partners to deliver key aspects of its plan. In other words, we are meeting our statutory function to co-ordinate and co-operate with others and to shift attitudes and approaches so that heritage is an integral part of the decision-making process.

The Heritage Council's expenditure during 2006 will be approximately €14 million. To effectively implement its proposals during the first year of its plan in 2007, the council requires approximately €20.5 million. That estimate is with the Minister, although members are asked to note that this sum includes €2.8 million to complete work on the new headquarters, the palace in Kilkenny which was acquired some two years ago. During the year the annual allocation for which we will seek Oireachtas sanction is set to rise to €22 million. This expenditure will be targeted at local heritage grants; local action plans for the Irish Walled Towns Network; partnerships with local authorities; promotion of Heritage Week and a national landscape development programme, which integrates many of the social and environmental issues facing our rural populations. This has a strong North-South emphasis.

While the consultation period of the plan runs until the end of the month and committee members have the opportunity here to let me know how they react, the overwhelming number of submissions received to date have supported the broad principles and approach. In maintaining our strong input on national policies and programmes we seek to build on the positive shift in public attitudes regarding levels of awareness. The Heritage Council intends to continue to assist at local level with initiatives to raise awareness of the significance of our heritage and provide not just physical but intellectual accessibility to it and encourage its enjoyment. These aims imply adherence to the best standards of conservation and sustainability and reflect national policy.

After ten years of working to build and put together structures, the allocation of resources we manage to secure to cover the course of the planned period will test political responsiveness to the shifts in public attitude that we can show are happening through our market research. The economic aspect will receive further emphasis in the autumn. I hope that will allow us all to build on the success and the achievements the Heritage Council has been privileged to undertake on behalf of the State to date.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Starrett. His argument for more resources has been well put to the Members of the Oireachtas present.

Deputy Cuffe

I welcome Mr. Starrett and congratulate him on the work his organisation is doing. My three questions relate to heritage officers, coastal zone management and national parks legislation.

Mr. Starrett pointed out that a network of heritage officers as frontline staff is crucial in protecting our heritage in many areas. I have heard varying reports as to how matters stand and have heard that many heritage officers were contract based and let go. What has the trend been in recent years? How many heritage officers are employed overall and where are we headed in that regard? The officers have a crucial role to play in safeguarding our heritage.

Mr. Starrett referred to coastal zone management. We had a brave new dawn with the publication of the draft coastal zone management strategy in 1998-99, but since then the strategy has not moved forward. Many other European countries have moved forward with strong plans for the protection, development and conservation of their coastal areas. Around Ireland, coastal areas are undergoing periods of rapid change and the seaside resorts initiative raises matters of water protection, visual landscaping and related issues. In my constituency a planning application was made recently for a building 100 metres tall within 100 metres of the water's edge which would have a strong visual impact and possibly a strong impact on flora, fauna and other issues. I am concerned that we do not have a coastal zone management in place and welcome the Heritage Council's views on the issue.

We need new legislation to deal with national parks. We are fairly good at protecting flora and fauna, but the issue of access to areas, particularly near our towns and cities, is important. Coillte does not appear to have an adequate role in that regard. Its role is to grow and harvest timber and make a profit and if we look at the foothills of the Dublin mountains we see huge amounts of clear felling taking place. This area would be served by some legislative protection through national parks legislation that would allow access to these areas by the communities around them. Legislation would provide a balance between protection of flora and fauna and people's use of the resource.

Mr. Starrett

The heritage officers are the frontline and we now have 26 heritage officers within local authorities. This initiative began as a pilot scheme in 1999 with three officers and their success has bred further success. The Heritage Council is pleased that local authorities embraced the concept so quickly. It provides support beginning at 75%, reducing to 50% and maintained at 25% to ensure the council is not stuck with a large, administrative, economic noose around its neck. Local authorities take on responsibility for the posts. There are some issues with regard to the extension of those three-year contracts. Seven local authorities have been brave and have made the heritage officer posts full-time within their existing framework and constraints on public sector recruitment. There are issues with regard to other officers as some counties are less financially or emotionally connected to the desire to make the posts permanent and have kept the officers on as contract staff. However, we are all aware that as a result of employment legislation once a contract is renewed the contract officer is as good as permanent. Only two authorities have let heritage officers go and one post is under consideration. When the council becomes aware that such staff members are being let go, there is an onus on it to liaise closely with the local authority to try to persuade it otherwise. Apart from one case in County Leitrim, we have been successful to date.

I could not agree more with the Deputy with regard to coastal zone management. A few months ago the Heritage Council published a clear statement, which is on the Minister's desk, on our maritime heritage, of which the coastal zone is a strong part. Our statement points out the need for structures to deliver, something which relates to the Deputy's third question on national parks legislation. While we are good at putting forward strategies and policies, all too often the issue of structures dedicated to uniquely carry out a function have not been tackled. We tend to add bits on to other people's work and jobs, but until we address the structural deficit, we will not be in a position to drive forward our strategies.

On the issue of national park legislation, we have six good State-owned national parks because they are owned by the State. They are managed in a way that up to now has been directed towards protection of flora and fauna as pointed out by the Deputy. The Heritage Council has called for national parks to be given a legislative framework. Currently they are in place only in name because the State owns them, but there is no legislative provision for them. However, to just make legislative provision for them as they are, would not recognise that in the 20 years since we first took pride in our national parks, such issues have broadened and moved on throughout Europe. The issue of legislation for landscapes and the integration of these State-owned flora and fauna national parks have been broadened out into a much wider concept that embraces the rural, economic and social development of the area and makes the connection between the protection and well being of people. To that end, the council is on record as stating that we should not only legislate for the national parks as they are, but that we should consider new legislation, namely, a landscape Ireland Act, in the next five to ten years. Such an Act would allow these matters to pull together and examine all the aspects affecting our rural landscapes in an integrated way rather than simply asking someone to tag it on to his or her job.

Chairman

The committee recently visited Killarney National Park and members were very impressed with the activities taking place there. We studied the park's management plan. Mr. Starrett's comments are interesting in that context.

Deputy Gilmore

I also welcome Mr. Starrett to the committee. The development plan he is putting forward is for the period from 2006 to 2011, which roughly coincides with the period of the revised national development plan. This national development plan which is also in preparation will no doubt be announced in pieces in the next eight or nine months and will provide for very significant development in terms of roads, infrastructure and considerable physical development that will come face to face with heritage issues. As a result, heritage issues must be resolved in terms of the development. What consultation has taken place with the Heritage Council in respect of the preparation of the national development plan and how is it intended to address heritage issues in the national development plan, as distinct from the council's plan, which obviously parallels it?

I will expand on the comments Mr. Starrett made about villages during his presentation. It appears that we are losing the Irish village. Two developments are taking place. Villages near large urban conurbations or cities are being overrun by suburban development and effectively becoming part of the suburban or commuter hinterland of cities. As a result, the character of these villages is being changed dramatically. On the other hand, villages outside of these areas are becoming derelict. I grew up in rural Ireland. Villages had shops, post offices and people living in them a long time ago. In the typical Irish rural village today, the post office is closed, the Garda station has gone, the only shop open is the filling station and the few pubs available do not open until late in the evening and do not close until the early hours of the morning. People sometimes wonder why people do not live in Irish villages as they do in France. People do not emerge drunk from pubs in France at 2 a.m. The amount of dereliction is interesting, given the amount of development, particularly in construction, taking place in Ireland. Irish villages are now derelict. A classic feature one finds while walking along a footpath in an Irish village is that all the houses are boarded or bricked up and falling apart. Does Mr. Starrett agree that the Irish village is dying? What does he or the Heritage Council suggest needs to be done to conserve and protect the Irish village as part of our heritage?

Mr. Starrett's last appearance before this committee was when it discussed the issue of routing the M3 through the Tara-Skryne valley. On that occasion, both the Heritage Council and the director of the National Museum strongly believed the road should not be routed through the valley. The committee considered the issue and since then, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has signed the necessary permits which allow the archaeological work to go ahead and effectively clear the way for the road to be constructed. This is still an issue of considerable concern among people concerned about heritage issues, including people overseas who are somewhat bewildered that Ireland is building a motorway through the heart of its Celtic heritage. What can be done or what needs to be done now? I appreciate that as head of a State agency, Mr. Starrett is making this comment after decisions have been made on this issue. Given where we are now, what needs to be done about Tara?

Mr. Starrett

The Heritage Council made a detailed submission to the Department of Finance on the national development plan. The council is seeking to ensure that aspects of our heritage, both natural and cultural, are central to the decision-making process. As the Deputy rightly pointed out, there will be considerable investment in infrastructure. Our submission focused primarily on the fact that we needed to ensure that in examining the infrastructural developments, we seriously take into account their impact on our heritage. It is not simply a question of a cultural or social aspect; the issue also has an economic aspect. I will return to the economic value of our heritage in conclusion when I discuss Tara.

On the strength of the submission, the Department of Finance invited the Heritage Council to a one-to-one meeting with its representatives. Representatives of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government also attended this meeting. Therefore, they are in no doubt about the core priorities. The council recently submitted a recommendation to the Minister that archaeological research and the development of an archaeological research programme within the national development plan would assist greatly in avoiding some of the conflicts we have experienced to date. We have heard so much about the conflict between development and archaeological research of late. Such a research programme and framework would allow the knowledge that is there to be translated into accessible information, thereby allowing people to make better judgments and decisions. It would also be advantageous if it was matched by European funding under one of the new framework programmes. It is imperative not merely from a cultural and environmental perspective but from an economic perspective that the new national development plan treats these aspects of heritage as core and central issues.

I agree with the views expressed by the Deputy about Irish villages which are under immense pressure. In respect of his observation that Irish villages are dying, a positive aspect is that they are not yet dead and we are not beyond hope. In tandem with local authorities, the Heritage Council has been to the fore in promoting what it terms village design statements. These statements are based on the involvement of local communities through local authorities in deciding how they want to see the planning and development occur in and around their local community, particularly villages. A number of local authorities, primarily those with heritage officers, have produced very clear village design statements, thereby strengthening the links. These statements are now formally accepted and adopted as part of the county development plans. This allows the village development to overcome poor quality design and a lack of infrastructure, schools and shops and ensure people can live there comfortably without having to commute.

When I last appeared at the committee, I made it clear that if the Heritage Council had been in charge, it would not have taken the decision to place the M3 near Tara. However, we are not in charge and must accept the decision-makers' results. We have been working with the local authority to persuade it to include in its draft development plan a designated landscape conservation area as provided for in the Planning and Development Act. It is a provision of the Act which has never been used. If a designated area is included in the final development plan, we undertake to work with the local authority to provide resources and a dedicated team to implement the plan's objectives. The use of the Act's provisions in this area provides a way to short-circuit the need for a landscape (Ireland) Act. If the use of the Planning and Development Act's provisions works, we will be able to operate in the scenario that develops.

Senator Brady

I thank Mr. Starrett for his presentation and congratulate the Heritage Council for the work it does nationally. There has been a great deal of talk about villages, but there is now a phenomenon in Dublin which sees a very small group of unscrupulous owners in the older, Georgian parts of the city who run down their properties hoping to develop alternative buildings in their place. I think, in particular, of Blessington Street, but it is an issue throughout the city. Mr. Starrett mentioned preventative conservation. Does Mr. Starrett see a role for the council in conjunction with local authorities in preventative conservation? Can pressure be brought to bear from a heritage perspective to prevent unscrupulous owners of important buildings from running them down for speculative purposes?

Like Deputy Cuffe's constituency, my local area is subject to proposals for large-scale developments, especially at the Mountjoy Prison site and O'Devaney Gardens which is adjacent to Bricin's Park and Collins Barracks. Some sites are subject to integrated area plans and some are not, while others are part of framework plans. How can the Heritage Council become more involved to ensure heritage sites are preserved while development is allowed to continue around them? It appears there is a crucial role to play in conjunction with local authorities.

Mr. Starrett

There are provisions in the existing legislative framework that allow local authorities and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to take owners to task and ensure they maintain in good condition the properties to which Senator Brady referred. However, very little funding is available to local authorities and the Heritage Council to provide grant aid to support owners and it needs to be increased dramatically. In the context of owners allowing buildings to be run down for speculative purposes, the Senator mentioned the preventative maintenance programme. The council has been working with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the OPW and the Department of the Environment in Northern Ireland to determine whether a cross-Border scheme can be introduced, initially on an experimental basis, which encourages owners to maintain their properties. The scheme would involve the establishment of a preventative maintenance team that would tour and examine properties and encourage owners to clear gutters and carry out roof work before such work becomes very expensive. I hesitate to use the term "man with a van", but the scheme would operate in that sort of way and could help to raise awareness of the need for maintenance and preventative conservation. It would be a better system than having the council step in at the last minute to pay grant aid to support, for example, the provision of a new roof on an historic building. I hope the process of cross-Border engagement will result in this initiative.

The Heritage Council recognises that heritage is a dynamic area that changes regularly. We must ensure the values that attach to our heritage are properly reflected in the development that takes place. Legislation in place provides for the protection of heritage and some have described it as perhaps the most draconian law of its type in terms of looking at specific sites. However, that characterisation misses the point that unless one works with and involves people in the promotion of an understanding, appreciation and awareness of the value of the process of heritage protection environmentally, culturally and economically, they react against the imposition of conservation. The council's role must be to share information and make it accessible and explain to people why heritage is significant. Heritage officers are the people who must perform the task. We are not an executive body, we are a small organisation that must deliberately set out to work with our partners to shift attitudes and change outlooks. Hence, we have created the awareness programme.

Deputy Cregan

I welcome Mr. Starrett to our meeting and thank him for his comprehensive presentation. He answered the first question I intended to ask when he responded to Senator Brady by referring to the annual grants scheme. I echo Mr. Starrett's call for additional funding for the scheme, having seen many owners of listed buildings which they use as a primary residence, encounter very severe financial restrictions. Unfortunately, the level of grant aid available on a county-by-county basis is minimal which leaves heritage officers trying to perform the miracle of the loaves and fishes to accommodate as many applicants as possible. If we are to promote conservation and heritage, we must respond adequately with the necessary resources. I support fully their provision. When the applicant is keen to maintain a property, we should encourage him or her in the strongest manner possible.

Does Mr. Starrett believe we have balanced, reasonable and sensible decision making where heritage officers work with planning officials? Others might have different experiences, but I am asking about the rule rather than the exceptional cases to determine whether the system is working satisfactorily.

On the subject of villages, the experience in my constituency has been different from the experience set out by Deputy Gilmore. While developers concentrated to a significant extent formerly on villages close to the urban sprawl of Limerick city, transforming them completely and depriving them of their character, developers are now selecting specific villages and building between 20 and 50 houses. This positive and sustainable development will ensure we retain our post office, Garda station, school and shops — the elements that make up the local economy.

Two components are necessary for sustainable development. First, local authority members must do their work satisfactorily by means of their county development plan, having villages correctly zoned and allowing for an adequate and reasonable level of development. Second, much depends on the local community. Communities that were dying on their feet have become vibrant and rejuvenated because their members got up off their butts and sought and gained the necessary support. Such supports are available to every community. Some, however, expect a cheque to drop from the sky before they take any action.

Villages in my constituency are thriving. Mr. Starrett made a pertinent point when he spoke about communities that were "dying but not dead". Heretofore, developers have concentrated on developing large urban centres and in my constituency have largely satisfied demand. Now, however, they have recognised a new niche in the market and are moving into smaller villages. Provided such development is controlled and sustainable, it is positive for the residents of those villages and as such, I welcome it.

Mr. Starrett

As the point about grants has been well made, I will not dwell on it. Local authorities and the Heritage Council must ensure the building at risk grant programme is substantially better resourced to deal with demand.

In regard to reasonable decision-making, the process is improving radically in the first instance because of the far more strategic approach now being taken to planning decisions which are not based only on development control; rather development is beginning to sit within a defined strategic framework, something that will take time to be firmly established. In particular, local authorities need time to acquire personnel with the correct skills and the other resources necessary to meet the increasing demand and workload they face. It is difficult when there are constraints on public sector recruitment. We co-operate with the local authorities as much as possible through the heritage officer programmes in ensuring they have staff with the right skills. Many heritage officers do not work specifically within planning departments. It is a matter for each local authority to decide where within the organisation an officer can play the most significant role.

I concur with Deputy Cregan's comments on the problems encountered with developments in many villages. I hope, however, that there has been a shift in the perspective of developers to the effect that many can now see the potential for development in a structured and strategic way. I hope the reasonableness of the decision-making process from a planning perspective continues.

Deputy Kelleher

I thank Mr. Starrett for his presentation. I support and encourage the development of rural villages to a certain critical mass where they can be vibrant and retain their facilities, including post offices, shops and, in the case of Limerick, hurling teams. In general, however, the types of houses being built in small villages are entirely incompatible with existing rural design structures. A developer who has in the past built developments of 500 semi-detached houses in Dublin or Cork will oversee the placing of 30 of such self-design type houses at the end of a village, but this detracts from the unique rural character of our villages. I am not saying we should all live in squat-windowed houses but the development taking place is objectionable. One can have the same number of houses but with a better design that is more fitting with traditional Irish building.

It is to be expected that developers and their architects will try to submit plans for houses that are cheap to build and so on. What is surprising, however, is the insistence of some planners on the construction of dormer bungalows, for example, in rural areas. Such homes were never part of the built heritage but planners seem to be almost determined that people should live in them. One might imagine there would be encouragement to build old traditional farmhouses of one and a half storeys or modern cottages. Instead, however, it seems a dormer blitz is being overseen by the planning bodies of all local authorities. Can the Heritage Council play any role in encouraging change in this regard? It is affecting parts of west Cork, for example, where there are beautiful traditional villages such as Eyeries, Allihies and Durrus. In Durrus, for instance, there is a line of houses on one side of the street which are entirely incompatible with the heart of the village. I do not contend that the village does not require that quantity of new houses, but a more suitable design that is amenable to the environment is desirable.

In some farming areas the roofs of fine houses were removed many years ago to avoid the payment of rates, while bungalows were built at the top of a laneway. One may come across a beautiful structure in a yard and, in most cases, it is too late to preserve it. Is there room for a national trust? Driving around the countryside one sees many square Norman towers falling down in the middle of a field. In Britain the National Trust allows people to avail of tax relief when they invest funding to assist in refurbishing such structures. In our affluent society there is scope for local businesses to provide funding for the refurbishment of building structures to preserve them for the future. Such a strategy should be considered, as it would be a positive development. It has worked well in Britain, although I am aware such activity takes place on a larger scale in that jurisdiction.

It seems there are considerable objections to golf course developments on links. Inch is a particular example. Golf courses serve not only the golfers who use them but also the people who work there and the local community. The economies of places such as Lahinch, Ballybunion and Waterville rely strongly on their golf courses. Such developments are, by necessity, located in coastal areas with sand dunes, areas where we are seeking sustainable development. I often wonder what is the objection to links developments, given that the land in question is in private ownership prior to such development and not accessible to the public in any case. Perhaps people should look at this issue with a more open mind.

Under the Heritage Act, one of the functions of the Heritage Council is to co-operate with public authorities, educational bodies and other organisations and persons in the promotion of the functions of the council. Are such bodies, including An Taisce, a hindrance or help to the council in its work? Although it is not always the case, for some, particularly in rural areas, "heritage" is an unwelcome concept. It alienates some who try to dissociate themselves from it.

Mr. Starrett

I concur with the Deputy's point on the design of some properties in rural villages. There is, or has been, some inappropriate design. The main issue for us is what can we do about it. Several key actions in our plan point to our efforts in this regard. We have worked with the architectural and planning professions to ensure they are more conscious of siting and design issues, particularly in areas where there is a degree of sensitivity. It is only recently that local authorities have begun employing architects far more widely. We have a role to play within the professional institutes in ensuring an awareness of the value of heritage at a local level is reflected in the professional development of planners. The Deputy correctly observes that it is not a question of obliging people to live in two-room cottages. Rather, careful siting and design can be of great benefit, both to the rural landscape and in terms of the development of a village.

On the establishment of a national trust, the Minister recently established the Irish Heritage Trust, a model not dissimilar to the National Trust in the United Kingdom but which is based primarily, as it I understand it, on an initial amount of funding being provided and then working primarily on a tax incentive basis. The jury is out as to how effective it will be but the board has been appointed and an executive is being recruited. Steps have been taken that I hope will test the water sufficiently. The council has supported the Irish Landmark Trust which is known for the restoration of a number of lighthouses and properties which it then lets out to visitors. The trust works well and effectively. I hope there will be a strong synergy between it and the new Irish Heritage Trust.

The Heritage Council has been involved in respect of two golf courses, an inland course and a links course, not to be more specific. We have no specific objection to the construction of golf courses and there is no general blockage. Research in certain areas demonstrates that a well developed golf course can add to natural heritage elements through good planting and good design, an aspect we would push. The sand dunes and marram, as well as developments on links courses, need particular attention because they are very rare habitats, protected not only under national but also EU legislation. When proposals are made in such areas, it is only right and fair that this aspect should receive added significance. While the final decision rests with the local authorities, our purpose will always be to make them aware of the significance of heritage.

The Deputy asked whether An Taisce was a help or a hindrance. The Heritage Council is a semi-State body with clear statutory functions and we go about our work in a particular way. We seek to build consensus in all of our activities and work very closely with people to try to explain the issues involved. The council is not an NGO, whereas An Taisce is. An Taisce manages its business as it sees fit. We co-operate where appropriate and do not where it is inappropriate. The approaches are totally different but our approach to consensus-building and the way in which we gain support through shifting attitudes and constructive work at a political level will in the long term prove beneficial. However, every country needs NGOs which are prepared occasionally to rattle the cage of a heritage council.

Senator Brennan

I welcome the presentation. I have a question on the role of the Heritage Council in making submissions under the planning Acts on planning applications. I come from a small village of thatched houses. I pay tribute to the achievements secured in respect of the national thatching grant which was introduced in the 1980s and has helped to protect many old thatched houses. Perhaps we should broaden the scheme to take into consideration the role and use of thatched houses where they are protected as a streetscape.

The heritage towns scheme was a good one which attracted much European funding for the 30-odd towns involved. Are there plans to expand the scheme with a view to promoting tourism?

On the management of archaeological sites and records, does the Heritage Council examine many planning applications in country areas where heritage officers are based perhaps half a mile from a site? Who carries out the Heritage Council's role under the planning Acts? Is it the local heritage officer or the Heritage Council directly?

Mr. Starrett

The Heritage Council's role is clear in that it is a prescribed body under the planning Acts. It is not, however, the development control authority. We can make submissions on any planning application we want and will always reserve that position. If we make a submission, it is made in the name of the Heritage Council, whereas the heritage officer is an employee of the local authority. We need to be clear that the council would only make its own submissions.

It is important to note that the number of planning applications on which we make comment on an annual basis is minuscule. We have 15 staff and just one planning officer. We have concentrated on the strategic aspect of planning. We make submissions on draft development plans and support heritage appraisal to attempt to influence the policies followed in those plans. This should lead to what we term reasonable planning decisions on individual applications because there is a very good policy framework. We need to be clear that the heritage officer advises the local authority, not the Heritage Council.

The heritage towns initiative was taken before the establishment of the Heritage Council which has never had any formal or informal role in the work of the initiative. It would be fair to say that within the structures that lend support to the initiative there is a degree of flux. There is a lack of direction. Even when driving into some towns it is clear there is no maintenance of signs and so on. This does not look good and does not reflect well on us nationally.

We are co-operating with Fáilte Ireland on a range of issues and perhaps this is an issue to which I should give added priority, particularly in view of the way in which the Irish walled towns network has captured the imagination at local and national level. If the Heritage Council was to be represented at a heritage towns forum, it would first and foremost be represented on the basis of the conservation and management of heritage to bring benefits rather than purely on the basis of economic and tourism development. However, the Deputy is correct that there is a case to be made for synergy in this regard which would be beneficial to towns and the national heritage.

Chairman

That completes questions. I am grateful to Mr. Starrett for travelling to Dublin to be with us at this meeting which has been constructive. We have had a good discussion. I hope the committee has played some role in highlighting the public consultation process, getting people involved and encouraging them to make submissions before the deadline of 29 September. The committee will not make a submission but it may be that individual Deputies and Senators will as a result of this discussion.

Mr. Starrett can be assured of our full support in his work. As I noted, his point on resources is well made and we will keep it in mind in the weeks and months ahead. I thank him for his attendance.

Mr. Starrett

I thank the Chairman.

Chairman

Is there any other business?

Deputy Cuffe

An issue arose in the popular media during the summer, namely, the vexed question of green procurement, green cement and suchlike. There seemed to be a variation of views among Ministers on the issue. Various fractious groups representing the industry sectors have come before the committee but it would be good to clear the air by inviting the Office of Public Works or the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to discuss their green procurement policies. I will write to the Chairman formally in this regard but I wanted to mention the matter in passing at this meeting.

Chairman

As the Deputy noted, the committee has given some thought to the issue. That consideration can be ongoing.

Deputy Cuffe

I will write formally to the Chairman on the issue.

Chairman

We will adjourn. We are aiming to launch the committee's report on recycling next Wednesday morning and trying to put all the pieces in place.

Senator Brady

Will the Chairman let members know?

Chairman

Yes. While the launch is 99% certain to proceed, we will notify members formally.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.20 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 27 September 2006.