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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Wednesday, 28 Feb 2007

Vol. 1 No. 93

Climate Change: Discussion.

I welcome Mr. Oisin Coghlan, director of Friends of the Earth; Dr. Aodhagán Ó Rodaighe, chairman of the Royal Irish Academy committee on climate change; and Mr. Ray McGrath of Community Climate Change Consortium for Ireland, C4I-Met Éireann.

We are convening to discuss the implications for Ireland of climate change. I realise this is a significant global problem but I ask witnesses and members to restrict their comments to how it affects Ireland. Thus, the debate will be focused and to the point. Following the presentations, I propose to have a question and answer session. Is that agreed? Agreed. I invite Mr. Coghlan to begin.

I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to discuss climate change at this critical juncture. The Government is currently preparing a new national climate change strategy against a background of unprecedented international interest and activity. Al Gore's movie and the Stern report heightened the global focus on the issue and the latest UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report has emphasised the basic reality that climate change is happening, human activity is causing it and we have very little time to act if we are to prevent global warming of more than 2° Celsius, which is the agreed threshold beyond which dangerous climate change will occur.

In addressing Ireland's position and role, I want to speak about three matters. The first concerns the principles that should lie behind Ireland's approach, the second concerns our performance to date regarding climate change, and the third concerns proposals for how this committee could help to ensure Ireland does its fair share to prevent climate chaos, which is the risk we ultimately face.

Friends of the Earth believes there are four principles: the urgency of the issue, the adequacy of the response, the equity of the response, and the doability, so to speak, of the response. On the principle of urgency, scientific evidence suggests we need to make global greenhouse gas emissions, which are still rising, peak and decline irreversibly within ten years. The decisions we take now and in the next few years, both in Ireland and internationally, are crucial to our chances of success in preventing our exceeding the threshold for dangerous climate change. This is our window of opportunity and it is time to act.

On adequacy, climate change is increasingly regarded as the greatest threat facing humanity. It threatens the viability and prosperity of the human community on earth. We undoubtedly have a climate crisis, which many call a planetary emergency, and the nature of the problem makes it unlike others faced by political leaders. We are very conscious of this because one cannot negotiate with the atmosphere. There is no honourable compromise in that either we take the steps required to prevent global warming going out of control or we do not. We will know the consensus position when the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change delivers the third part of its report in May, but the best available scientific evidence at present suggests we need to halve global emissions from 1990 levels by 2050 to prevent warming of over 2° Celsius.

On the issue of equity, it is clear that climate change is caused by the First World. It is the burning of fossil fuels in our economies that has caused the problem, but the poorest countries are being hit first and will be hit hardest. More intense droughts will affect Africa, further undermining food security, while in Asia, rising sea levels could displace millions of people, especially in coastal communities such as those in Bangladesh. Simultaneously, retreating Himalayan icecaps will threaten the fresh water supplies of hundreds of millions of people in Asia.

The EU Heads of Government have already agreed that rich developed countries will have to make cuts in emissions in the order of 60% to 80% by 2050 to do their fair share. In the short term, it is agreed that the EU should make cuts of at least 20%, and probably 30%, if others will act with us, by 2020. I refer to cuts from 1990 levels. For Ireland to do its fair share, it must make cuts from 1990 levels of least two thirds, or probably much more, by 2050, and by at least 15% by 2020. That our level is already 25% above that of 1990 illustrates the scale of the challenge we face as a society, economy and polity.

On so-called doability, the aforedescribed shift in our pollution patterns cannot be achieved overnight and most certainly cannot be done at the last minute. There are no shortcuts, therefore, to climate stability. In Irish policy terms, it amounts to a paradigm shift of the sort represented by the Whitaker-Lemass model 50 years ago. It will require the sort of commitment from all sectors of society represented by the first social partnership arrangements 20 years ago. The only way to make the required adjustment is to make it in a step-by-step, year-by-year, managed way, starting now. The latest figures suggest that Ireland needs to reduce its climate pollution or greenhouse gas emissions by an average of 3% per year every year between now and 2050. We must therefore ask how we are doing so far.

Unfortunately, Ireland's record so far on climate change is one of relative failure. We signed the Kyoto Protocol in 1997 and in 1998 agreed to limit the growth of our climate pollution to 13% above 1990 levels by the period covered by the protocol. That figure was agreed to by the Cabinet and was reflected in the national climate change strategy, which stated clearly that business as usual, so to speak, was no longer an option for Ireland if it was to meet its commitment. Unfortunately, business as usual is what occurred. The latest figures released by the Environmental Protection Agency place us 25.4% above 1990 levels and project that in 2010 we will at 28% above 1990 levels, which is exactly the level the ESRI warned we would reach by 2010 when it made its prediction in 1997. The outcomes of our policies so far are such that we are exactly on track to do nothing about climate change.

Some of the recommendations made to the Government did not make it into the national climate change strategy, including the one that we stop using peat to generate electricity. The latest Environmental Protection Agency report states the new peat-fired power stations are major contributors to the rise in emissions that was evident in 2005. Many of the proposals that made it into the strategy have since been shelved or abandoned, including the conversion of Moneypoint from coal to gas and the introduction of a carbon tax. Even the reform of VRT and motor tax, first announced in the strategy seven years ago, has yet to happen. The strategy has been officially under review since 2002.

Instead of reducing pollution in Ireland, the Government has opted to buy pollution permits overseas. The latest figures suggest that direct costs to the taxpayer will be approximately €375 million over the five years covered by the Kyoto Protocol, and Irish business will spend another €150 million buying credits through the European trading scheme. It is important to note that this does not even constitute "buying our way out of Kyoto", as it is often put, because any reductions we fail to make in the current period will simply be carried forward to the next commitment period. The Government and everyone agrees that stricter and more challenging cuts will be necessary in the future.

Friends of the Earth is not saying trading has no place at all. It is simply saying it is neither in Ireland's long-term nor short-term interest to rely on it to the extent we are doing at present. We will have to make the cuts at some point but we seem to be opting for a policy of pay now and cut later rather than cutting now and saving later. I refer to the financial cost in addition to the impact of climate change.

If everyone in the world consumed and polluted like the Irish, humanity would need the resources of three planet Earths to survive, but we only have one. Among rich countries, Ireland is the fifth most polluting per person. By 2012, the same year we plan to overshoot our Kyoto commitment by a factor of two, we plan to be the fifth most generous donor of overseas aid in the world per capita. This is very laudable and we can be justly proud of it. It makes little sense, however, if we continue to pollute at a rate that will allow climate change to undermine the prospects of meeting the UN target of halving poverty in the poorest countries.

In the short term, we can trade a little with countries that are not polluting to the same degree but, in the long term, we will have to make cuts to do our fare share. At present, the Chinese, Ethiopians and Brazilians can trade with us but, by 2050, when we will need to have taken control of climate change and when we will want to have eliminated global poverty, there should be no reason to expect the average Irish person to be polluting more than that the average Chinese, Brazilian or Ethiopian. At present we are polluting at more than ten times the rate of the average Chinese and 100 times the rate of the average Ethiopian. The upshot is that the sooner we make the shift to reduce our pollution at home, the better it will be for us and everyone else.

I will outline Friends of the Earth's proposals for the committee. It is clear that long-term targets pose difficulties for modern democracies which are dominated by the 24-hour news cycle and the five-year electoral cycle. Ireland's failure even to move towards meeting the Kyoto target it agreed ten years ago is evidence enough of that. The timeframe for reaching the target was always considered too distant to be immediately relevant to political decision makers whose job it was to make the difficult decisions that would have moved us forward. That is why Friends of the Earth proposes that the targets that represent Ireland's fair share of pollution reductions should be enshrined in law. That would create a public policy framework that would drive the innovation needed. California has already made a move in this direction, inserting the figure of an 80% reduction by 2050 into law. Three similar proposals are now before the US Senate, the most well known of which, the McCain-Lieberman-Obama proposal, is bipartisan and sponsored by two of the leading contenders for the US Presidency next year. The British Government has announced it will introduce a similar law. We argue that the targets should be annualised in a carbon budget to make them immediate and real for people and policymakers. In Britain both the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats support this approach, while the Labour Government has yet to publish its Bill.

We would like the committee to review the best practice proposals in other countries and report on their application in Ireland. Friends of the Earth is concerned at the level of public debate in Ireland so far. While catching up fast with our European counterparts, the debate has not properly prepared the ground for the Government to take adequate action or show real leadership of the sort displayed in ensuring Ireland ratified the Nice treaty.

The public consultation on the review of the NCSS lasted only two months, one of which was last August. There was no State advertising or promotion of participation. Five months later we have not seen the submissions published on the Department's website. We ask the committee to request that the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government publish the submissions, as the Department stated it would, on the website before the climate strategy is published to facilitate public debate on Ireland's response to the threat of climate change.

The first Kyoto Protocol commitment kicks in in ten months. The new NCSS will shape Irish policy for the five years. There is a real danger, however, that the opportunity to move Ireland onto a low carbon pathway will be missed, unless there is a collective public commitment to real action which the committee could do much to facilitate. It could hold public hearings on Ireland's climate change policy before the national strategy is finalised in order that it is not just published by the Department but that there is a sense of ownership on the part of society as a whole in the reduction of emissions.

The Stern review made clear the economic imperative to act. The IPCC report from the United Nations makes clear the scientific imperative to act. Global warming and peak oil mean that change is coming whether we welcome it. Our choice is what kind of change and whether we manage it by making the shift to sustainability in a planned step-by-step way, starting now, or whether we wait and let change happen to us by way of shocks, disruption and upheaval down the line. It is time to act.

Dr. Aodhagán Ó Rodaighe

I am speaking on behalf of the committee on climate change of the Royal Irish Academy. This is an inter-disciplinary committee made up of 16 members from third level institutions, semi-State and State bodies.

As Mr. Coghlan mentioned, most of us are familiar with the recent report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. For the primary parameter, the increase in temperature, the best estimate is an increase of 3° Celsius by the end of the century. Those of us with grandchildren hope they will then be alive and well. This is the fourth report by the IPCC, each of which has been more definite with regard to where blame lies. It is now almost certain the blame for climate change lies with human beings and the emission of greenhouse gases, in particular.

I will not dwell on the impact, with which Mr. Ray McGrath will deal. The United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change aims to stabilise greenhouse gases at a level that will prevent dangerous climate change. The European Union interprets this as limiting the increase in temperature globally to 2° Celsius. This is the task we face in Ireland and internationally.

The Kyoto Protocol, to which Ireland signed up, agreed within the European Union, allowed Ireland a 13% increase up to 2008-12. As most of us are aware, we have fallen behind that target. According to the provisional figures released by the EPA, we are now 25.4% above our 1990 base level, well off target.

The main sectors from which the emissions in Ireland emanate are agriculture, although its contribution is steadily decreasing, energy and transport, in that order. There is particular concern about transport emissions which are partly linked to our economic success. Emissions have increased by 160% compared with the 1990 base level, a huge problem, as outlined this week in a report by the European Environment Agency. The average for the European Union was a 25% increase in that period.

When we talk about greenhouse gases, there are three important factors, the first of which is carbon dioxide which is produced when carbon based fuels are burned in the presence of oxygen - the burning of fossil fuels is the main source of these gases. Land use changes are the second major source. The burning of fossil fuels includes the burning of petrol and diesel in transport. It is of interest to Ireland that, in terms of the fuel burned in power stations, coal and turf are the worst for emissions because they produce most carbon dioxide per unit of energy. In second place is oil, with natural gas producing least carbon dioxide. The mix of fuel used is important in limiting greenhouse gas emissions.

Methane is the second most important greenhouse gas. Most are aware that the prime source of methane, certainly in Ireland, is ruminants, primarily cattle - sheep to a lesser extent. Because of the large numbers in the national herd, they make a large contribution to greenhouse gases. Of lesser importance is the energy industry, with leakage of natural gas associated with natural gas sources or pipelines and petroleum. Landfills are also a source and as they are managed more intensively, unlike the dumps we had long ago, that problem is ameliorated and the methane can be used to generate energy.

In the third place nitrous oxide, a combination of nitrogen and oxygen, comes from the use of fertiliser and the management of livestock. In Ireland the contribution of methane and nitrous oxide is significantly higher than the average in other places because of our agricultural industry although those contributions have been reducing steadily since 1990. Carbon dioxide contributes approximately two thirds of the damage in Ireland and between them methane and nitrous oxide nearly one third.

Annual Irish emissions average 17 tonnes per capita, which is high. The USA and Australia are near the top of the list with 23 tonnes per person, the EU average is 11 tonnes, and by contrast India averages only one tonne. There is an urgent need to tackle greenhouse gas emissions in Ireland. We are aware of the immediate problem as we approach the commitment period of the Kyoto Protocol. Between 2008 and 2012 we must limit our emissions by 13% and we know the problems that entails.

In addition, the European Union recently agreed that it would go for a 20% reduction by 2020, compared with a base year of 1990. That will be a mammoth task that will be difficult for Europe and particularly difficult for us. We got off fairly lightly in 1990 as a developing economy but now that ours is a developed economy we cannot expect that we will get off so lightly. That indicates the major task ahead of us. It is not impossible with commitment from Government and everybody else.

The main recommendations of the Irish Committee on Climate Change are that we should have an ambitious, radical and achievable strategy to reduce emissions of greenhouse gases predicated on strict regulatory controls. We should have a well-qualified expert reporting to Government co-ordinating regular reviews so that we know how the plans are progressing - this includes short-term plans and revisions of the strategic plan. It could be helpful if a Minister of State, perhaps in the Department of the Taoiseach, were to be responsible for ensuring that all aspects of national and local government policy were climate change proofed. A fiscally neutral carbon levy should be introduced - we do not use the word tax. One of its aims would be to ensure that the costs of emission reduction are allocated to those responsible for the emissions. In other words, this is "the polluter pays" principle. The benefits and cost of mitigation, reducing greenhouse gas emissions and adaptation activities, adapting the community to this, should be compared with the cost of the purchase of carbon credits given that reducing greenhouse gases might cost less in the long term than credits and would be more morally justifiable. With regard to environmental and climatological observation systems, those which gather the data that help us monitor what is happening to the climate here should be protected and put on a sound financial basis. These systems range across a variety of activities from Met Éireann to stations such as Valentia and Mace Head where greenhouse gases are measured and where we follow the progress and monitor the way they change with time. There is a need for ongoing support for regional climate prediction so that we have the capacity to predict what is likely to happen in Ireland and within the region. We have global models that are quite advanced. They are not perfect and are too coarse to tell us what happens in an Irish situation. We need therefore regional climate prediction that gets down to the small scale. Mr. Ray McGrath will talk about this. The implementation of a national spatial strategy would be seen as an important part of a climate change strategy. That might include a reduction in the commuting distance to work.

The last of our main recommendations is that we need alternative solutions to the strategic target of maintaining diversity in electricity supply. We particularly need to focus on renewables and to deal with the strong possibility of using power stations where we have carbon sequestration, the carbon dioxide produced is not released into the atmosphere but is buried in aquifers, underground geological chambers. The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources recently launched a geosciences programme to investigate ways in which carbon dioxide can be buried and removed from the atmosphere so that we can use certain fuels without polluting the atmosphere. These are our main recommendations. We thank the committee for listening to us and wish it well in dealing with these problems.

Mr. Ray McGrath

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for allowing me to make this presentation. I represent the Community Climate Change Consortium for Ireland, C4I, project which is a regional climate modelling initiative run out of Met Éireann in collaboration with UCD.

Climate change is accepted as a fact. The climate records from Met Éireann show that over the past 50 years mean temperatures have increased by approximately three-quarters of a degree. Of the past 100 years 2006 stands out as the second warmest. A figure of 0.75° Celsius may seem modest but one consequence is that the length of the growing season has been extended. A recent study carried out by Trinity College Dublin of Ireland's phenological gardens - special gardens where annual indicators such as time of leaf-budding are recorded - found that in the past 30 years the length of the growing season has increased by four weeks for some species in the south west. Significant changes in the phenology of insects and other life forms are also likely to have occurred.

Rainfall patterns have also changed with increases in parts of the west and north. There is evidence of heavy precipitation events increasing. The only weather element that has not changed is wind. Mean wind strengths have decreased slightly over the past 50 years.

For many, these changes will appear to be benign. Winter heating bills, for example, have decreased. However, as highlighted in the recent IPCC report, there is trouble ahead. Climate change, if it continues unchecked, will have a large downside. Met Éireann, in collaboration with University College Dublin, has been running a climate model, focused on the local Irish scene, to predict the future climate. Results from our model simulations are very similar to those released by the IPCC. They show mean Irish air temperatures will increase by 1.25-1.5° Celsius by mid-century. That is approximately twice the warming rate over the past 50 years.

Rainfall patterns will change, summers are likely to be drier - as much as a 20% decrease in some areas - and winter precipitation will increase, particularly in the west and north west. Such changes are likely to have significant impacts on agriculture. The suitability or viability of certain types of crops will become an issue. For example, the farming of potatoes in the east and south east may require irrigation in a drier environment. The results will have implications in the planning of future forestry plantations.

Climate change will increase the frequency of severe weather events such as heavy rain and storms. In the project we have examined how this will affect land flooding. In some catchment areas, rises in winter precipitation will increase the risk of flooding. In coastal areas, sea-surges - local increases in sea level due to low pressure weather systems and strong winds - are occasionally responsible for flooding. This may be exacerbated by rising sea levels. There is also a possibility of the surges increasing in intensity as we become more exposed to extremes of weather. Preliminary results from research work in this area will be released in the next few weeks.

The broad details of climate change have been scientifically established. However, areas of uncertainty remain. Future levels of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere are not known. It is difficult to tease out the details at local level because of the complexity of the climate system. Past climate may not be a good guide to the future; there may be climate surprises ahead. The IPCC has stated the Atlantic circulation, the Gulf Stream, is not expected to shut down but we cannot rule out a major weakening of the system. If it weakens substantially, it would have a significant impact on Ireland, as it brings us warmer weather in the winter months, and the fishing industry.

These uncertainties are challenging issues for climate scientists and emphasise the need for ongoing climate research. One approach is to use an ensemble approach. Many different forecast models are run to produce a pool of forecasts that can be used to produce a consensus forecast or to highlight the sensitivity of some aspects of the climate system to greenhouse gas levels. Ireland is contributing to international projects such as ENSEMBLES that were set up to address these issues. C4i is a partner in this project. Met Éireann makes a large contribution by running 100-year simulations of the European climate system.

I welcome the delegations on this very important issue. While Ireland is a small country, our emissions are much higher than they ought to be. The key question for politicians is how to balance carbon policy with economic growth. Many approaches are being made on this, one of which is a carbon tax. Will the delegations give their views on this? One argument against the carbon tax is that it increases energy costs, particularly affecting poorer households, and is a tax on production and employment. County Louth has several dominant industries which are high energy users. Local politicians were advised that the question of tackling climate change would affect local employment. Cement Roadstone has recently announced a significant reduction in CO2 emissions from its cement factory in County Louth while sustaining employment for the next generation.

Industrial heavy energy-users must sign off on this issue. Legislation and financial instruments must also be used to tackle the issue. Energy consumers must buy into climate change policy. I support Mr. Oisin Coghlan's point that targets must be set in legislation to ensure we meet our Kyoto Protocol commitments.

While national instruments and proposals are in place, I do not see attempts to manage climate change on a local basis. The agenda for change must be driven on a countywide basis. The proposal to have a Minister of State to deal specifically with climate change is good. The local authorities in Limerick and Clare have joined together to produce a climate change strategy for both counties. Everyone agrees that climate change is the biggest issue facing the world, but we must take personal responsibility and drive this home throughout society, in our places of employment and where we live. Do the delegates have any further proposals or ideas that might assist in that process? That is the direction we must take. In the further hearings Friends of the Earth proposes I will certainly support this approach. We need practical proposals to which we can all sign up as a society and as Members of the Oireachtas. We must step forward collectively on all these issues.

The biggest problem of all is that our energy costs will more than likely increase. One issue is that of diversity and security of supply. Many of us have changed to gas, but supplies will be controlled by Russia, Algeria and Norway. While we wish to increase our options for alternative energy sources, we will still be in the hands of other countries regarding this energy crisis. I have put many points to the delegates, but I would be happy to hear any comments they might wish to make.

The Deputy covered a great deal and I will try to cover a little of it without taking up too much time. I would like to deal, first, with the question of our smallness which arises a great deal in discussions on climate change. This is a small country. However, the USA is not doing its bit, while China and India are increasingly important. There are two responses. We do not use this argument when discussing the fight against global poverty, saying Ireland is very small and that our aid does not really make much difference. Rather we say we will become leaders as the fifth most generous country in the world per person and meet the UN target ahead of the EU timescale. In foreign policy terms, the intention is to trade on this to an extent, using our moral authority. I see no reason that the same should not apply to climate change, particularly when it will undermine our moral authority on overseas aid if we do not address the two together.

Also important are the global political dynamics regarding the United States and the rest of the world. Things are changing in the United States, as everyone is now aware, but they have been changing for some time at state, city and regional level. Now the same is true of Congress. Even the President's attitude is changing. One reason they are changing is that the European Union went ahead with the Kyoto Protocol, even when the United States backed out. Everyone assumed that the agreement would then fall apart; the fact that it did not is a triumph of EU diplomacy, something worth pausing to think about, since there have not been very many. It is because we acted as we did that US companies are subject to Kyoto Protocol rules in Europe. They do not want one rule in Europe, one in California and one in New York. They do not want such regulatory Balkanisation but certainty and clarity. They are, therefore, putting pressure on the Bush Administration to shift, as are many other factors in the United States. Only when the United States moves will we get China and India to move. That is the basic compact made in Rio de Janeiro under the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change. The rich world will move first and the poor world will follow. China and India will not move until the United States does, but if we in Europe continue to act, we will bring the United States on board. The next President will come back to talks, regardless of whether it is Mr. McCain or Mr. Obama who are both sponsoring the Bill I mentioned. That addresses the issue of Ireland's smallness which we do not discuss in other arguments in which we are involved.

On the issue of political choice, the carbon tax issue was thoroughly debated a few years ago, but not in the context of public and political acceptance of the imperative to act. It has much to offer, but we do not claim that it is the single most effective instrument. Pricing carbon, making the polluter pay, helps. Economists tend to speak of a carbon tax, but environmentalists tend to speak in terms of quantitative restrictions in order that one can guarantee a cap, with the price determined by whomever is most efficient at reducing use. When one uses taxes, the price is set, but the actual reduction one achieves is less certain. In some senses we take a neutral position on taxes and quantitative measures, with carbon credits for every household, for example. The important point is that the cap which we believe should be imposed by law will drive public policy and entrepreneurial innovation to provide solutions.

On the specific point regarding the social impact of a carbon tax, Ms Sue Scott of the ESRI, in particular, carried out a great deal of work at the time to show that, with relatively simple social welfare adjustments, one could compensate the less well-off for the impact. The ESRI stated that, overall, the net impact on the economy would, if anything, be positive. A carbon tax could have a role to play. Specific measures such as VRT on motor vehicles could be used to link paying with pollution. It is educational apart from anything else and we certainly see a role for it.

What can the Government do to bridge gaps between the global, local and national markets? Personal responsibility is the key. People will have to make responsible choices, but we rely on the Government to give us the supports, incentives and rules to make that possible and facilitate us, ensuring there are no free riders, with everyone doing their fair share. There is currently a gap. I will give a practical example. Australia which has not even ratified the Kyoto Protocol and is certainly not implementing it has decided to ban incandescent light bulbs by 2009 which is not even a very long timescale. The Australians are beginning to take serious action. We can ask everyone in the country to turn off the stand-by button on their computers and change light bulbs, or we can regulate them out of existence. The European Union could decide that all new television sets should be made without a stand-by facility or that any such facility should be time-limited. We need both, but on many occasions Government action will be more effective, although we must win popular support for it and encourage everyone to play his or her part.

In the long term security of supply is best dealt with by reducing our demand and diversifying as much as possible into renewables. The European Union is clear that the biggest, quickest win will come from energy efficiency, cutting energy waste and reducing our absolute energy use, despite growing economies and upward pressures, by 20% by 2020. That would obviously have a massive impact and save a great deal of money. It would come at a zero net economic cost, since investments would be followed by dividends.

Ireland is well placed. In the old days we used to say we did not have any natural resources apart from our people. We have such resources when it comes to wind, wave and tidal energy, at which we should be looking more and moving away from peat towards biomass and so on.

I, too, welcome the three delegations before us to discuss this important matter.

I would like to pick up on one of the recommendations made to the committee, namely, that we should review best practice in other countries and report on its application in Ireland, while carrying out work regarding the national climate change strategy. Realistically, one would have to say the committee is in its final weeks. It is unlikely that the Joint Committee on Environment and Local Government of the 29th Dáil will do the work required. Arising from today's discussion, I propose that we recommend to the House that when the next Oireachtas is convened, it should appoint a joint committee to deal specifically with the issues of climate change. At the very least, these recommendations on what must be done regarding climate change should be incorporated into the terms of reference of the Joint Committee on Environment and Local Government.

My idea is that this issue should be raised on the formation of the next Oireachtas, with hearings, discussions and a solution-focused approach. I suggest this because we have reached a point where there is some understanding of the scale of the problem. The picture has been painted in very graphic and practical terms, whether the specific aspect be the irrigation of potatoes in County Wexford or flooding as a consequence of climate change. There is now good public understanding of the climate change issue, its extent and the problems it will cause. I do not believe there is an understanding of the scale of the response required. On that point I take issue with the coded language being used about the response. We should spell this out. People on all sides, particularly the experts and NGOs, need to talk in clear language about the response required. To talk in terms of paradigm shifts does not mean a great deal unless we understand what we are talking about.

I lived though a paradigm shift. It was what was needed to turn the economy around in the 1980s and 1990s. I was a trade union official and had to sit in canteens with people who were losing their jobs and who, at the age of 45 or 46, were telling me they would never work again. That is an example of the consequences of a paradigm shift. Paradigm shifts are not painless. Unfortunately when we go through a paradigm shift in terms of major changes in public policy, very often it is those who are least able to endure the pain who suffer most. We need to talk in very plain language about the response that is required. For example, Dr. Ó Rodaighe talks in terms of a fiscally neutral carbon levy, which sounds very benign. However, we need to spell out precisely what we mean when we talk about carbon taxes. What exactly are we talking about in practical terms? We are talking about the prices of electricity and of petrol at the pumps, plain simple language that people can understand.

I make these comments not as criticisms but because we all need to spell things out. We are all guilty of pulling our punches in relation to what is actually required. Mr. Coghlan, for example, in the Friends of the Earth submission to the national climate strange strategy, refers to the congestion on the M50. He says, "Per kilometre road pricing is essential if the upgraded road is to be free from congestion." For the last couple of months we have had public controversy about removing the toll booths. What does that statement translate to for the motorist?

There is a public understanding of the scale of the climate change problem and that a response is required. However, we have reached a point when we talk about a response and a solution that it needs to be spelt out in cold painful terms. We are not talking about something nice and cuddly we can warm up to. There is going to be some pain and we need to speak frankly about what is involved.

Dr. Ó Rodaighe

I shall just comment briefly. Our first recommendation is for an ambitious radical policy. We did not spell out what we meant by a fiscally neutral carbon levy simply because it is a very complicated issue and we are aware the ESRI has done a good deal of homework on this. Frankly, we were very disappointed that the homework it had done over a number of years never saw the light of day in terms of being put into action. Ms Sue Scott, mentioned by Mr. Coghlan, is a member of our committee. Regarding a carbon levy, we do not want to increase the cost of fuel and services in such a manner as to damage the economy's competitiveness at a time when there are difficulties. Certainly there has to be a cost, but we must be careful as to where that cost is placed. That is our view.

I take Deputy Gilmore's point. The future demands that type of honest discussion. I certainly take the point about paradigm shifts not being painless. When they arose in the past they meant short-term pain for long-term gain. Many of those, including myself, who would have criticised what happened in 1987 and beyond now accept the benefits from that period. However, the Deputy is also right in saying that they need to be done in a way that protects the most vulnerable. That is something we are aware of, both globally and nationally.

I should like to comment on the two issues he directed at me in particular. There has been much talk in the last few years about stealth taxes. If a carbon tax was introduced, VAT could be reduced, for example. It might be possible to reduce PRSI or income tax, but there might not be that much to gain since taxes are relatively low these days. Perhaps more can be gained by reducing VAT because in that way the same types of products will be hit but differentiation can be introduced between those which are carbon intensive and those which are not. That is one example, but we would say it should be fiscally neutral - tax reform as opposed to a new tax.

As regards the M50 issue we need to be very plain on this. There is no point in turning it into a three-lane motorway if we do not put some demand management strategies in place. It will be congested again. All the international literature and even the Department of Finance's internal documents on the carbon tax say that if roads are built they will be filled with cars. There is an equity issue, for a start. I live in Rathmines and if I go to Limerick I do not pay any toll when I use the M50. As an equity issue it should not be payable at just one point. This is a management issue. If it is correctly priced, it will work better for everybody, both in terms of getting from A to B - since it will be used only when needed - and in keeping not just congestion but greenhouse gas emissions down.

Interestingly, I understand the contract with the service provider for the new tolling system provides, in the small print, for multiple gantries, even though the Government is highlighting currently the one to replace the Westlink. The Government is preparing for the possibility of per kilometre tolling and this seems to me to be the most effective way forward, in congestion, pollution and equity terms.

I compliment Oisin, Ray and Aodhagán on their presentations. They provided a good deal of useful information. In Oisin's presentation, the emphasis on being careful about relying on trading to the extent the Government does sets off a few warning bells. It says in effect that trading in carbon credits has a role to a play but should not be relied upon to the extent we do. That is an important point.

In Ray McGrath's presentation the point about the severe weather is significant. We can all remember the newspaper picture of the Taoiseach up to his oxters in Drumcondra when faced with a severe weather event five years ago. The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche, is in a similar position today in being caught in the headlights, so to speak, and possibly not understanding the magnitude of the problem.

All the witnesses have emphasised the need for a speedy response and for movement in a very different direction. Dr. Ó Rodaighe talked about a programme that would be ambitious, radical and achievable. That is an enormous seismic shift in the direction in which Ireland needs to go. I welcome his suggestion that a Minister of State be appointed in the Department of the Taoiseach to deal with the issue. That is a practical and sensible step and somebody should be on hand to crack the whip for all Departments of Government to ensure they are on-message in respect of agriculture, energy, transport or other areas.

The Irish people, I believe, realise this. We have reached a tipping point. I met an elderly man the other day who was hopping mad about the Government paying €270 million for carbon credits. He was really very angry and I sense this message needs to be relayed to Government. I met representatives from the Construction Industry Federation yesterday and told them they had to be able to look their children in the eye and make a dramatic improvement very quickly in building standards. They sensed the need to move, but the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government wrote to Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council and asked it not to go ahead with improving the building standards.

I hope that the Chairman's colleagues realise the seismic shift occurring among the Irish people that will result in changes at a national level. Simple things like banning incandescent light bulbs or even getting rid of the WEEE charge from long-life bulbs would help. Smart metering and allowing people to sell electricity back to the grid would cost less than the buy-out of the West Link toll bridge. These are achievable goals that could be done relatively quickly, and include improving the building regulations. Over the weekend, a former German Minister told us that 170,000 jobs were created in the renewable energy sector in Germany over a five-year period. That is astounding stuff. There are sunset industries, such as Irish Steel and Irish Fertilizer Industries, and there are sunrise industries such as Airtricity, Luas and Century Homes. We must push these sunrise industries and help them get established, especially in the area of renewable energy generation.

Is it possible to reduce emissions and to enjoy economic success? I have my own answer to that question, but I would welcome the thoughts of the delegation. Would an annual report to the Oireachtas on achieving targets be a step in the right direction? This might force Departments to act. Given the amount of research and the impact of climate change in Ireland, do we need some modern day version of An Foras Forbartha, a research body that could collate, research and disseminate information to make sure that we perform the kind of U-turn that is required?

Dr. Ó Rodaighe

I think we can reduce emissions and enjoy economic success. Deputy Cuffe cited the example in Germany but there is also an example in Denmark, where there is a thriving industry in producing wind energy generation systems. Denmark makes a positive gain from encouraging and deploying renewable energy. In many ways, our lifestyle could be much improved by measures that are necessary in order to reduce emissions, such as the spatial strategy. We must get that right and implement it in such a way that people travel less and do not spend so much time polluting. In order to do that, we must improve our public transport and implement a number of smaller measures.

An annual report to the Oireachtas on the reduction of emissions is to some extent incorporated in the recommendations we made. We recommended an eminent expert who would report to the Government and co-ordinate regular reviews, so that there is some kind annual carbon budget. If someone was running a good company, the financial manager would have regular short-term reviews of the finances so that nothing disastrous can happen.

The Carbon Fund Bill 2006 is being discussed in the Dáil and I am obliged to speak at 3.45 p.m. I ask committee members to agree that Deputy Kelleher take the Chair.

Before Deputy Cregan leaves, could I congratulate him on his recent appointment as Chairman? He has a good track record and if the Government lasted a bit longer, he would be heading upwards. Unfortunately, some of us may assume that seat in a few months. I wish him well in the interim.

Deputy Kelleher took the Chair.

Dr. Ó Rodaighe

The last question put to us by Deputy Cuffe was about a modern day organisation like An Foras Forbartha that would deal specifically with the question of climate change. This would be good as long as it did not turn out to be a talking shop. It must be geared for the correct action in the short term and must take advantage of all the expertise that is now in the country. The EPA has funded research into climate change which has changed the scenario in the past decade. There are now many people, not all funded by the EPA, who have the expertise and who would be very happy to contribute to such an operation.

I am not a member of the committee, so I thank the Vice Chairman for letting me in. I also thank the witnesses for the presentations they made, which were very interesting. Deputy Gilmore spoke about the paradigm shift required and the enormous changes and pain that might occur if we were to tackle this seriously. I agree to a certain extent when he spoke about the tentative nature in dealing with it. However, we operate in a global context. We should remember that and the levels for which we are responsible ourselves. If we were to be the best in the world in dealing with climate change, what good would that do us in the end? The amount of pollution for which we are responsible is quite low.

Dr. Ó Rodaighe and Mr. Coghlan mentioned the economic costs, and the Stern report states that we cannot afford to make the changes required. However, I was struck by the attitude to agriculture in Dr. Ó Rodaighe's presentation. Does agriculture have a future in this country?

Dr. Ó Rodaighe

It certainly does and I certainly hope so. I am aware that there is much work going trying to reduce emissions in agriculture. UCD and Teagasc have been working on ways to try to reduce emissions by altering the diet of cattle. This could be expensive, but it would represent a contribution. Due to the importance of agriculture in Ireland, we need to put money into research to see how we can reduce emissions. However, the reality is that agriculture is one of the areas in which there has been almost a constant reduction in output, so it will be of diminishing difficulty with regard to emissions.

I accept that, but nonetheless it is a significant contributor and we have all ignored it. I certainly was not conscious of it, as I was much more aware of the transport sector.

Mr. Coghlan spoke about the emission levels. Does he think our Kyoto commitments are recoverable? Can we come down to the 13% level in the 2008-12 timeframe?

It is a very big challenge to do it all domestically at this stage. We need to front-load the changes we make. If we were to start reducing by 3% a year from now, we would still be doing a bit of trading during the Kyoto period, but we would not be relying on it to the extent we are currently planning. There are some easy wins in areas like energy efficiency. Some of the first savings are easiest to make. I cannot say with certainly that we could do it all domestically, but we could do a lot.

I hate defeatism and the notion that there is no point trying because we are 25% ahead of the target, although I do not think anybody is talking like that. However, if we were to make significant changes, the situation is recoverable, is it not? On the question of efficiency, it is much cheaper to save a kilowatt of electricity than to generate one. We could take that as a starting point.

In addition to that, there is real danger if we believe "Oh, we are not going to make Kyoto, so what is the point? We might as well buy the credits." That is to defer the issue. If we defer action until 2013, it makes the problem more difficult and the mountain to climb higher. Even if we do not end up getting the whole of the Kyoto commitment achieved domestically in this phase, every little bit of reduction we make now will save us money, time and effort down the line. There is a Chinese saying that the longest journey starts with a single step. We should start now, not later.

I apologise for not being present for Mr. McGrath's presentation. I am surprised there has been no mention of the nuclear issue. Does Friends of the Earth believe nuclear energy has a role to play in reducing CO2 emissions?

The evidence suggests it is not the solution, for several reasons. Even if global nuclear capacity was tripled, which would take some time, global emissions would be reduced by just 5% to 10% by 2050, according to research commissioned by Friends of the Earth and others. It cannot be a significant part of the solution. There are a number of reasons not to do it, some of them advocated ably by the Government, one of which is that it sucks in a huge amount of resources. For example, the investment going into renewables in Finland since it decided to build a new nuclear station has considerably declined.

There are easier and quicker ways to do this than by using nuclear power. For example, the research suggests that for every euro invested in energy efficiency, one gets seven times the bang for ones buck than by investing in nuclear power, certainly in the shorter term. It is highly unlikely anyone would want to build a station in Ireland, and it is against the law. My fear is that we could spend the next five years discussing nuclear power, and living in the 1970s, when we need to invest our time, energy and money in all of the other solutions available.

Is that the attitude of Friends of the Earth Ireland or the attitude of Friends of the Earth international? When I ask about the role nuclear power has to play in combatting climate change, I ask on an international not a local basis. That we are 25% above our limits at present is a worry. When we look at other countries that are managing the issue well, we cannot deny nuclear power is a factor. In terms of the international situation - this issue must be tackled in an international context - nuclear power is clearly bringing down CO2 emissions. Does Mr. Coghlan agree?

We must include the transport and refinement of uranium, the building of the station, which requires so much cement - every tonne of cement is a tonne of CO2 emissions - the decommissioning of the station and the storage of waste for generations. The research suggests that over the life cycle of a nuclear station, the emissions caused by the production of nuclear carbon would not be much less than those caused by a gas-fired power station. One must also consider the time involved. If we have ten years to put on the brakes internationally, nuclear power will not help us do this because we cannot get stations built that quickly. We need to consider other solutions.

Mr. Coghlan referred to the tax system. Is he really suggesting changing the VAT basis to have it based on carbon outputs, which is the impression he gave?

We are talking about revenue neutral tax reform to discourage carbon intensive activities. My suggestion was that if we put in place a carbon tax, we could reduce the general VAT rates so that a consumer will pay more for carbon intensive activities—

Then that is what Mr. Coghlan was suggesting.

I do not know how easy it would be to carbon-rate with regard to VAT. However, if one puts in place a carbon tax, there is then a choice. If the Government does not need extra revenue, and this is not principally a revenue-raising measure in theory, other taxes would be reduced. It has always been suggested that the other taxes that would be reduced are PRSI and even income tax. I am simply suggesting we should consider reducing other indirect taxes, because carbon tax, which is a tax on consumption, is an indirect tax. Other indirect taxes, such as VAT, could be reduced if a carbon tax is put in place.

I thank the delegation for an informative and interesting presentation. As we all know, the alarm bells are ringing concerning climate change. We were all alarmed by the second report published in Paris just over a month ago. The Government must give up its passive stance on this issue and be a driving force in the establishment of a global treaty for the reduction of gas emissions. We can take the lead in this regard. Mr. Coghlan referred to the role of a small nation. We know the role we played and the impact we had with regard to the smoking ban, which was remarkable and has received European and worldwide recognition. There is a role for us to play in this regard.

As Deputy Cuffe said, the public's hunger for serious action is growing and the scientific case for action is beyond doubt. Mr. Coghlan stated that Friends of the Earth is concerned at the level of public debate in Ireland so far on this issue, while he recognised we are catching up. Would it be beneficial to introduce Al Gore's documentary, "An Inconvenient Truth", as compulsory viewing for secondary school students to raise awareness about climate change among the next generation? It is a very good documentary and would bring the message home to the next generation, and perhaps to the present generation also.

Environmental groups have had very little input into the social partnership process to date. What is seen as the major priority to be tackled for the duration of the current agreement? What proposals would the witnesses have put forward had they been asked to participate in the discussions?

I am a farmer. Farmers have been deterred from producing energy crops due to start-up costs. This is an issue to which the Government has not given wholehearted support and which needs to be addressed. There is a lack of Government incentives. The door has been closed to some farmers because there is no information with regard to how to begin bio-fuels projects and plant and development grants are not available for such projects, which would help to reduce oil energy consumption. As spokesperson on the environment, heritage and local government in the Seanad, I have hammered home the message to the Government that energy crops would be a valuable tool to combat our oil dependency and help meet our commitments under the Kyoto Protocol. The Government should have greater willpower in this regard.

Irish farmers are clearly under serious pressure. They are doing their utmost to adhere to strict environmental guidelines. A great number of farmers are involved in REPS and we are moving to REPS 4 at present. What is the major impact climate change will have on agriculture in Ireland? What kind of crops will be viable for Ireland in the future?

The world must wake up to the threat posed by climate change. It is evident that human activities are causing the global warming that is destroying our planet. I have read snippets of the Paris report and it is frightening. As Deputy Cuffe observed, constituents are raising this issue on the doorsteps. We have an educated populace and people are concerned about what is happening worldwide.

A significant portion of the world is still not connected to an electricity network. When the populations of developing nations connect to electricity and energy boards, there will be a significant impact in terms of climate change. Whatever steps we take to improve the situation will be counteracted by increasing energy use in the developing world.

Mr. McGrath

I am not an expert when it comes to what type of crops might be suitable in the future, but much work has been done in this regard. A report produced for the EPA by Dr. McSweeney, for example, explored these issues. However, I do not have the information to hand.

I agree that Al Gore's film, "An Inconvenient Truth" is helpful. It is not too long and offers a powerful, straightforward and understandable presentation of the basic scientific facts. It does not bring the issues down to the policy level for Ireland and Europe because it is very much aimed at a United States or global audience. I agree it would be useful to introduce the film into schools and other educational environments. I would go further by suggesting that every Member elected to the next Dáil and Seanad should be given a free copy.

The film should be compulsory viewing. It offers a useful combination of education and a vision for the future. In speaking about his own political experience of this issue, Mr. Gore observed that he assumed his colleagues in the United States Senate would be just as taken by the science as he was. He found, however, that unless it was on their constituents' lips it was not on their agenda. It is good to hear it is a concern for Irish voters.

Environmental groups are excluded from the partnership process even though we asked to participate in the next round. We are slightly surprised by this given that it is a ten-year agreement. Everyone accepts that the next ten years are crucial in terms of how we respond to the climate issue. It would make sense to have people at the table who have as their priority the issue of environmental sustainability and protection. When it comes to the crunch in these negotiations, people will focus on the issue of primary concern to them. While the environment may be the third or fourth priority for many participants, it is not the primary concern of any of them and is therefore not fully reflected in the outcome.

During the last negotiations, a surprising decision was taken by the Government to outsource policy on carbon tax to the social partners. The Taoiseach and Minister for Finance said they would agree to the imposition of a carbon tax if the partners could agree on the details. Not surprisingly, under the circumstances, they could not come to any agreement on this issue. As a result, no carbon tax was introduced even though it forms part of our commitment under an international treaty.

We saw how the Government was willing to go back to the public when it did not like the first answer it received in the referendum on the Nice treaty. In that instance, the Government put forth all the reasons that the electorate should rethink its position on the issue in question. That level of leadership has not been evident in recent years on the question of carbon tax or climate change. Having environmental specialists around the partnership table would be helpful. All sectors of society must buy into the arguments and be convinced by Al Gore or whoever that we must make the necessary adjustments.

Agriculture is an issue where the Government deserves some praise. The focus on subsidising or promoting domestic production of bio-fuels is the way to go. We must be careful not to lose the capacity to feed ourselves. We are already seeing internationally that one of the upward pressures on grain prices is the increase in ethanol production in the mid-western part of the United States. Given the possibility that it may be more difficult in future to ship food around the world because of carbon pollution, we should not lose the skills required to feed ourselves.

We have some capacity in Ireland to switch land towards bio-fuels. This represents an opportunity for beet farmers in particular, who have lost their traditional outlet. We should promote domestic production as opposed, for instance, to importing all bio-fuels from Malaysia or Brazil. Rain forests will be cut down in those countries to facilitate bio-fuel production, which does not provide a good ecological balance. There are positive trends for Ireland in regard to bio-fuels, and we should prioritise their use for the public fleet. Ambulances, fire brigades and buses should use 100% bio-fuels that are grown domestically. This is more useful than putting 5% bio-fuels from around the world into every vehicle on the road. We must solve the greater transport problems in other ways.

Dr. Ó Rodaighe

I understand it will be easier to grow maize, for example, in Ireland as the climate inevitably changes. An issue that might be a cause of some controversy is the role of farmers in afforestation, which is useful in the sense that it provides a sink for carbon dioxide. In other words, the trees absorb carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. This is taken into account in regard to processes such as the Kyoto Protocol.

There has been minuscule support for bio-fuels. We must significantly enhance the incentives in this regard. Bio-fuels will not solve all our problems but they can offer a contribution. There is no single easy solution. Rather, we must take action across an entire range of activities. This makes it difficult and challenging but also worthwhile.

I am reluctant to advocate that Al Gore's film should be made compulsory because that might put people off it. We should certainly try to encourage people to see it. The well illustrated book that accompanies the film also makes the case strongly. "An Inconvenient Truth" is scientifically valid and does not go over the top as other films have done.

Deputy Cregan took the Chair.

I thank the delegates for their interesting contributions. Do they agree that President George Bush was probably more honest when he tore up the Kyoto Protocol some months after coming to power than the Government has been? Having signed the protocol, the Government has done nothing other than throw some €270 million of taxpayers' money at it? Backbenchers followed this Government policy in a sleepwalking fashion when they could have been more active in confronting it. We saw recently how a backbencher stomped his foot and wagged his finger in regard to a hospital in Roscommon and everything was suddenly sorted. To hear colleagues speak in shock and horror at this point in the debate is extraordinary.

I agree with previous speakers that public awareness of the issue is currently high. I was taken by Deputy Gilmore's suggestion of a dedicated committee to deal with this issue. I was also interested in the delegates' suggestion of a Minister of State attached to the Taoiseach's office who would offer leadership in this area. Why should there not be a Minister rather than a Minister of State with specific responsibility for climate change? A Minister who has some awareness of the issues should give leadership in this area.

The solution is already there and the policy is wrong, not necessarily the structure. The Government's entire policy is completely backwards in this regard. As for the question of how best to raise awareness and make progress in this regard, I suggest a permanent road show that would traverse the State debating the issue at local level, thereby raising political pressure to try to alter the political direction and agenda in this regard.

I had already intended to mention the nuclear issue before Deputy Fiona O'Malley's contribution. I have noticed for some time that the pro-nuclear lobby has been trying seriously to get this issue back on the agenda and is trying to push it through. It is using the Trojan horse of carbon emissions to do so and I am glad Mr. Coghlan buried the notion, albeit gently. I refer to the nuclear debate and the nonsense that is being put out in respect of savings on carbon emissions. Does he agree there has been an insufficient response to the pro-nuclear lobby with regard to dealing with the issue of radioactive waste? Many people in this State already live under the yoke of Sellafield and the consequential pollution and radioactive emissions coming from that installation, which is of no benefit to us.

While Government policy is of central importance, the issue of personal responsibility is also highly significant. Recently, I was fortunate to have the opportunity, courtesy of RTE's "Morning Ireland" radio programme, to have my home audited for energy conservation. I was surprised by some of the areas in which I fell down. Although I did not do too badly as I had insulation in the attic, it became clear that I did not have enough. Such awareness is excellent but can something be done to make it more widespread? While I am aware there are checklists available on the Internet, do the witnesses have any suggestions as to how people could be offered the tools to carry out more auditing themselves?

I will provide a brief example on the issue of public transport. I took the car from County Louth to Leinster House this morning because as I intend to remain here until after 10 p.m., I will be unable to take the train home. Consequently, I have no option but to take the car. This happens quite frequently, given the nature of the hours operated by the House. Many other people across this city and along the commuter belt from here to Dundalk and even to Belfast are affected similarly. A simple initiative such as the provision of some additional public transport would alleviate hugely some of the pressure on carbon emissions. I refer to the ever-growing commuter belt, which has almost spread as far as Wexford and has reached as far as Cavan on the other side.

On the issue of where in Government responsibility should lie, I believe increasingly that the Taoiseach's Department has a large role to play because this issue crosses so many areas. While the idea of a Minister of State with responsibility in this regard is interesting, the paradigm shifts previously experienced in Irish life bring to mind Whitaker and Lemass, or the present Taoiseach and others in respect of the Northern Ireland peace process. The next few Taoisigh will be obliged to take a leading role on climate change for Ireland to achieve the collective societal and economic response that is necessary. Consequently, it should not be hived off to a Minister of State only. For example, at present Comhar, the national sustainable development council, is under the aegis of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government although it has a interdepartmental remit in theory. We believe it should be moved to the Department of the Taoiseach to sit beside the National Economic and Social Council, the National Economic and Social Forum and other partnership bodies in order that it is closer to the heart of decision-making at a interdepartmental level.

One of the reasons for the attractiveness of nuclear power is that suddenly announcing one's intention to build a new generation of nuclear power plants gives the appearance of doing something. For example, the Deputy mentioned Sellafield and one should consider our nearest neighbour in this context. Such a major response smacks of leadership, particularly if the public is not keen on it. Tony Blair would not have achieved the desired effect had he announced the lagging of every attic and the double-glazing of every window. However, so doing would be much more effective. For example, In Ireland the greener homes scheme grants have proved to be highly popular with the public. In addition to renewable energy sources, they should be extended to cover the energy efficiency measures that would reduce our demand for energy in the first place.

Another general method of incentivising people might be to examine the issue of stamp duty which, as members are aware, has been much in the news. Stamp duty could be reformed whereby the more energy efficient was one's house, the lower the stamp duty to be paid on it. In this scenario, all houses would be energy rated from A to G or whatever, using a worthwhile scale in which an A rating was not reached too easily.

One issue that has been raised regarding stamp duty reform is that the seller would receive the benefit rather than the buyer. However, were stamp duty to be linked to the energy efficiency of a house, this could work to people's advantage as it would provide an incentive to invest. Under such a scheme, those who invest in improving the rating of their houses would know that purchasers would have more money to spend on them because they would pay less stamp duty. Moreover, purchasers would know that they would have lower heating bills. Such a combination of reforms constitutes a variation of the polluter pays principle, whereby the less polluting one is, the more one gains. Such examples could be used to move activity without being obliged to even consider the nuclear option. This is where gains would be most easily achieved.

Many of the points I had intended to raise have been covered already by other members and there is no point in repeating them. I welcome the deputation from the Irish committee on climate change. However, I am unsure what has been achieved. An extremely interesting debate has taken place and members have ascertained the witnesses' perspective on what will be required. However, I am unsure what has been done to further their aims. Have the witnesses held a meeting with the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government?

I have not yet met him.

Therein lies the difficulty. The witnesses are speaking before the committee, whose members have already met the Minister to discuss the Kyoto Agreement. It would have been highly useful had the witnesses been present to provide assistance to members at that meeting. The Government's solution is simply to buy the credits. Although this appears to be its short-term solution, it is not a long-term solution to the problem.

I was taken by Dr. Ó Rodaighe's suggestion on assigning responsibility to a Minister, be it a Minister of State or not. Although the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government should be responsible, he has much else to do. While I do not fault the Minister in question, perhaps his eye was taken off the ball in this regard. Perhaps a Minister of State with sole responsibility for the difficulties Ireland will face in the coming years could be attached to the Taoiseach's Department. Such a Minister of State could act immediately and organisations such as those represented at this meeting, as well as other groups interested in solutions to such problems, would have direct access to him or her. Such access is not available at present.

As I must participate in a debate in the Dáil Chamber, I will not delay any further.

Dr. Ó Rodaighe

I wish to comment on the question as to what can be done, as well as on the question pertaining to the Government, the appointment of a Minister and so on. Some of us have spoken of paradigm shifts. There is a real need for such a shift with regard to Ireland taking a position of moral leadership. It will be very interesting to see what our country's attitude will be with regard to the decision of EU environment Ministers about looking for and deciding on a 20% reduction across the Community by 2020. I hope we will not try to get the biggest derogation and that we will go in there with a position of moral leadership.

It was reported in The Irish Times that Poland was unhappy with the size of the 20% reduction that was agreed and cited the position of Ireland to argue that Ireland got away with a fairly significant increase because it was economically developing at the time. I like to think that because of the authority we have with developing countries and the accession states, we will take a position of moral leadership, rather than trying to get the best out of it that we can. I also like to think that instead of trying to get an easier ride, we will do the best we can in terms of contributing to reductions and taking a position of leadership in that regard.

I thank Dr. Ó Rodaighe. I again thank witnesses for attending and giving their time and expertise to the committee. We have had a very worthwhile and informative debate on the issue.

Have members any other issues they wish to raise?

This committee should look at wind energy. I have been contacted by many people who tell me that wind energy is not as efficient as has been claimed. There are many concerns that do not relate solely to the aesthetic impact of wind farms on the environment. People wonder whether wind farms are efficient and will make a long-term contribution or whether we are basically putting money in investors' pockets and making no real impact going forward. I want to find out whether we might discuss this issue because I have been contacted by many professionally competent people who suggest that wind energy as it is currently constituted will not necessarily have a huge long-term impact on our ability to create energy other than from carbon fossils. Perhaps we should have a good solid debate on this at some point. There might be time to broaden the debate on the Carbon Fund Bill to discuss this issue as well.

I thank the Deputy for his comments. The clerk to the committee might look at our work programme and see if we can fit in a debate along those lines between now and the end of the session. Members should note that the Select Committee on Environment and Local Government will consider Committee Stage of the Carbon Fund Bill 2006 at 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 14 March 2007. Second Stage of this Bill is being taken in the Dáil as we speak.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.15 p.m. until 2. p.m on Wednesday, 28 March 2007.
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