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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT, CULTURE AND THE GAELTACHT debate -
Tuesday, 17 Jul 2012

Report on Water Provision: Discussion with Minister of State

I welcome Deputy Fergus O'Dowd, Minister of State with responsibility for the NewERA project. I also welcome the officials from the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government: Mr. Mark Griffin, assistant secretary in the water and ICT division, and Mr. Gerry Galvin, principal adviser in the water services advisory division. I thank the Minister and his officials for attending the committee this afternoon. Before we commence, I would like to draw to their attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I also wish to advise witnesses that the opening statements they submit to the committee will be published on the committee’s website after this meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment upon, criticise nor make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The committee is grateful to the Minister of State and his officials for coming to discuss this report with us. As they are aware, significant work was put into compiling the report over an extensive period and it contains some strong recommendations. I wish to draw to the witnesses' attention the unanimous opinion of the committee that the new Irish water body, to be called Uisce Éireann, should remain in public ownership and be accountable to the Oireachtas, despite any recommendation in the report. I hope this issue will be addressed today. Other issues I hope will be addressed are: the recommendations relating to a national tariff for water, including both fresh water and waste water services; the establishment of a fair and just waiver system to protect low-income households; the consideration of household composition, size, circumstances and income; the profits from the proposed Uisce Éireann to be ring-fenced and reinvested in the water sector; the establishment of a grant scheme to incentivise domestic water conservation; the roll-out of water meters across the State to reflect the need to employ apprentices struggling to find the opportunity to complete their training; and the ownership and maintenance of water meters to rest with the proposed Uisce Éireann.

I now invite the Minister of State to address the committee.

Go raibh maith agat. I thank the committee for its kind invitation to attend the meeting. I have a speech that I will read, and I will address any of the issues arising from the Chairman's questions afterwards if they have not already been answered. I am joined by Mr. Mark Griffin, assistant secretary in the water and ICT division of the Department, and Mr. Gerry Galvin, principal adviser in the Department's water inspectorate.

I compliment the committee on an excellent report which reflects not only the complexities involved in water provision and the considerable challenges facing the sector but also the wealth of knowledge within the sector. We are embarking on a considerable programme of transformation for the sector and we need to debate the issues that arise in an informed manner. The report is a valuable input into the process ahead.

I concur with the report's opening remarks. We are at a critical stage for water provision in Ireland. We need to take a national perspective and grapple with the challenges facing the sector, conscious that the actions we take have environmental, societal, developmental and financial consequences. There are essentially three inter-related components to the Government's proposed programme of reform for the sector, on which decisions have been taken by Government. First, it will establish the proposed Irish Water as an independent State-owned company within the Bord Gáis group based on a public utility model. On the question of whether Irish Water will have an ainm Gaeilge, beidh. Níl aon dabht faoi sin, and we will discuss that. There is a commitment to using the Irish language in the name of the organisation. Second, it will introduce a sustainable funding model to support much-needed investment in the sector, in line with the commitment in the programme for Government and the memorandum of understanding with the EU-IMF-ECB. This will include the introduction of water charges for domestic users. Third, it will establish an independent economic regulator for water services, a function being assigned to the Commission for Energy Regulation.

These reforms involve major changes in how the delivery and funding of the water sector is organised and are necessary to equip the sector to meet the challenges of the future. These challenges include the need for investment in water and waste water infrastructure to support economic recovery, enterprise development and job creation and to ensure that we comply with statutory environmental and public health requirements. These are real and pressing demands. One simply needs to flick through the current water services investment programme to see both the scale and regional spread of the investment that is required. The committee has particularly examined the proposed project for a long-term source for the greater Dublin area. It was approximately one year ago that the committee visited Laois-Offaly in this regard. I know that all members of the committee will be aware of many projects in their own areas which would have positive impacts in improving water quality, security of supply and the local economy. However, tackling all of these needs requires structural reform and a massive level of investment, which has been estimated at more than double the expected level of Exchequer financing in 2014.

The approach to building a new and sustainable model must be accompanied by organisational change and underpinned by the appropriate policy and legal framework. Work is now focused on the development of an implementation strategy for the establishment of Irish Water, which will provide the platform for dealing with a broad range of implementation issues during the transitional phase. This strategy is being developed in collaboration with other relevant Departments, local authorities, Bord Gáis and NewERA. The strategy will focus on maintaining the delivery of a critical public service during and following a restructuring process, and is therefore premised on a phased rather than a big-bang approach. This will involve the establishment of programme management structures in 2012 to manage the transition process; the establishment of Irish Water on an interim basis later in 2012 and under its own statute in mid-2013, at which stage the company will acquire statutory responsibility for water services; and local authorities acting as agents of the company for water services operations for a considerable period.

We envisage the legislative provisions to establish Irish Water on an interim basis and assign regulatory functions for water services to the Commission for Energy Regulation, CER, will be brought before the Houses of the Oireachtas in the next session, with the comprehensive Bill to establish the company likely to be published in 2013. A range of important aspects regarding the establishment of Irish Water raised in the committee's report will have to be taken into consideration in drafting the Bill, such as the governance and accountability of the new utility, the intention of the Government that the company will be publically owned and the legal name of the organisation. I emphasise that it will be publicly owned and that this will be provided for in the legislation. There will be clarity on that and when the legislation comes before the Houses, we will be happy to consider any wording any parties suggest that may strengthen our proposals. We want there to be no doubt whatsoever that the new authority will remain in public ownership.

The legal establishment of the economic regulator will be an important step in the process of ensuring that water charges for domestic consumers will be introduced in a way that is fair and equitable. A key role of the regulator will be the protection of the consumer interest. The setting of water charges by the regulator will need to take account of a number of factors, those being the capital and operational efficiencies that Irish Water should be expected to achieve, including through investment in leakage reduction; the future investment requirements in water and waste water infrastructure; the level of continued Exchequer funding; and the approach to free allowances and support measures in respect of targeted groups with medical needs or affordability problems. The Chairman referred to water poverty, low income households and people with significant health issues who would require much more water than the average person.

Charging based on usage is the fairest way to charge households for water. The committee has made a number of recommendations in this regard that will be fully examined as the implementation strategy is rolled out. However, I might clarify the Government's position on some of the recommendations. I assure the committee that the decisions on the water metering programme have been subjected to a cost-benefit analysis and consideration has been given to smart metering. At this stage, the smart metering technology is not sufficiently advanced to capture potential synergies between the uses of such technology in the water and energy sectors. However, the issue will be kept under review as the technologies become more advanced. I understand that CER has examined the issue with the energy companies, and their collective wisdom is that we do not currently have the technological capability to put smart metering in place.

I fully agree with the committee that a broad water conservation campaign needs to accompany the metering programme. There is a strong emphasis under the water services investment programme on mains rehabilitation and I would like to see an acceleration of this activity. I am strongly of the view that we need to strengthen our communication with citizens on the value of water, its importance from a societal, economic, environmental and public health perspective and the practical ways in which members of the public can reduce their consumption, thereby influencing the amount they will be charged in due course.

The proposed reforms represent a major change with significant implications for local government and local authority staff, the water industry and its many stakeholders. We are committed to ensuring that this change is managed well. I cannot overemphasise this point; it is key. Earlier this year, a six-week public consultation on the proposed reforms saw engagement with ICTU. We are also engaging with the congress group of unions to explore the nature of the structures required to ensure adequate communication and engagement with unions and staff in local government during the transition phase. It is essential that all parties involved - unions, local authorities, the Department and Bord Gáis - move forward together. Everyone needs to buy into it and be satisfied that what we are doing is the best approach. We are trying to ensure that the structures are in place to deal with the issues that arise.

The committee's production of this report is timely. We are all of the view that unless we address key organisational and funding issues for the water sector, we will constrain our capacity to continue to exploit this natural advantage to attract foreign direct investment and high-end employment and to meet the needs and demands of our existing businesses and communities for high-quality water and security of supply. This is a key point in the 2009 report on the future of our water.

Irish Water as a public utility can build on local expertise and commitment to service, develop a sustainable financial model, leverage additional funding for investment and achieve efficiencies through economies of scale. The implementation strategy for Irish Water, which will be finalised shortly, will outline the next steps, the key milestones to be achieved and the tasks to be progressed as part of the programme of reform. The committee's report provides a valuable input into this ongoing work and is part of our listening and learning process. In our implementation programme, we will try to consider as many of the committee's recommendations as we can. I commend the committee on the comprehensive nature of its report and the interesting points raised and I look forward to further engagement on this matter.

I thank the Minister of State. Most members have indicated that they wish to comment. As the Minister of State is caught for time, I encourage them to ask questions. I am not looking for Second Stage speeches.

I wish to raise the issue of the sustainable funding model. According to the Minister of State, a cost benefit analysis was done. Was the model examined from the point of view of people's ability to pay water charges? In recent weeks, a report of the credit union movement stated that a considerable number of households have discretionary spending of less than €100 per month. The Minister of State discussed free usage in the context of other vulnerable groups. What is his thinking in this regard? Clearly, there must be a waiver system for people who cannot afford to pay.

Those were important questions. I refer the Deputy to the programme for Government, which reads: "The objective is to install water meters in every household in Ireland and move to a charging system that is based on use above the free allowance". The Government will set the free allowance, but this process will involve the CER. We have also met the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and other groups representing people who are experiencing significant poverty or economic issues. On the one hand, we are aware of the issues raised by the Deputy, but on the other, there is pressure to improve the water system to facilitate our capital investment programmes and so on.

Irish Water will be required to have a range of options to assist householders who are experiencing difficulties in paying their bills. A wide range of flexible payment options are available from other utility services, and it is expected that similar approaches will be adopted in this instance. The regulator will address affordability issues, including in respect of persons with medical conditions requiring high water usage, in consultation with my Department and the Department of Social Protection. Part of that consultation is already ongoing. This is a key issue that we are considering in light of the implementation programme.

I thank the Minister of State for his presentation. My main question is how the Government proposes to copper-fasten Irish Water's State ownership. According to the Minister of State's comments at this meeting and elsewhere, it will be a stand-alone subsidiary of Bord Gáis. Were one to ask people who had been in government in recent years whether they ever believed that Bord Gáis would be privatised, they would say "No". As we know now, however, that has been suggested.

My second question is on local authorities' acting as agents for water service operations for a considerable period. How long will that be? Will it be forever? The view among some local authority staff is that that will be the case.

My final question is on the Minister of State's closing remarks about attracting FDI. How many companies have told the Government that they are short of water? The sugar industry, which we put out of business and in respect of which compensation was provided, sourced its own water. The factory on the banks of the River Barrow was levelled. Many companies source their own water. They do not want potable water; they just want water. It is for this reason that they locate close to rivers. They extract river water. Uisce Éireann will not supply them and they will continue to obtain water from local sources. This would supply potable water which does not make economic sense.

Mr. Galvin will elucidate some of the technical points. The key point raised relates to local authorities, and the service level agreements are critical. The deadline for their review is 2017, but no issue arises with regard to the continuing involvement of local authorities and local authority staff in the services to be provided until then and afterwards. Local authorities are in charge of emergency programmes. One cannot expect Irish Water to be able to do everything local authorities do in the middle of a crisis. As I stated at the outset, local authorities, unions and the County and City Managers Association are involved. We are involving as best we can the elected representatives.

On a point of order, in what way have the elected representatives been involved? The elected representatives throughout the country to whom I speak tell me they were not involved, that they were told what was happening but were not consulted.

This is not true.

This is what they say. They received a briefing letter and were told what would happen.

This is not true.

When Deputy Stanley speaks it must be through the Chair.

I asked the Chairman but he was distracted.

With respect, Deputy Stanley, I do need to speak to the Clerk and there is no need for this behaviour.

I have been happy to meet elected representatives. Recently I met all of the elected representatives in Waterford city at an open public debate. I have visited many of the local authorities in the country and I would be very happy to meet the people Deputy Stanley speaks about. I have no problem meeting anybody. On a representative basis we asked the Association of County and City Councils and other representatives of elected representatives to meet us and I met them personally. A meeting held at the Red Cow Moran Hotel was attended by more than 200 people including the president of the Association of County and City Councils, Councillor O'Brien, from Kilkenny. Many excellent penetrating questions were asked and I will reiterate what I stated at the meeting, which is that we want local authority members to be fully satisfied that what we are doing will not change their contact with local authorities or with designated officials involved through Bord Gáis. I have raised with Bord Gáis the issue of direct access. There will be no question of a repeat of what happened in Northern Ireland.

A key issue for us is consultation. We are consulting widely and I am very happy to meet everybody on this matter. I stress this is a genuine wish. We want to get this right because it is so serious and important. It is about all of us and our future and there is no significant sector, be it local authority employees or members or consumers of water. The Deputy asked who needs potable water. The ICT, pharmaceutical and agricultural industries need potable water. One of the most important advantages we have over anywhere else in Europe is our fantastic supply of water. It may not all be in the right place but we have no shortage. It is the place for people to come. I say to any industries which need large amounts of water to please come here.

We are at a critical phase and I will ask Mr. Galvin to speak on this. Dublin's future is on a knife edge and I am delighted Mr. Galvin visited Garryhinch approximately a year ago.

Mr. Gerry Galvin

With regard to industry, in putting together the water services investment programme we have regular consultation with Forfás and Enterprise Ireland and we are guided by their views on enterprise needs. This covers not only new industries but also enterprises considering expanding in their present location and which require additional water. As the Minister of State mentioned, agri-food, ICT and biopharmaceutical industries require drinking water quality. Industries in other sectors which abstract their own water and do not require drinking water quality often require waste water treatment facilities to remove the waste water they generate. It is through close collaboration with Forfás and Enterprise Ireland that these needs feed into the water services investment programme.

As was evident during the severe winters in 2009, 2010 and 2011 Dublin's water supply and the supply and demand balance is on a knife edge. It took the Dublin area significantly longer to recover from the freeze because the surplus of supply over demand is so tight in the greater Dublin area.

I ask committee members to be brief in their questions and I will bring people back in again. I am conscious of time.

My first question was not answered.

I will come back to Deputy Stanley.

The Minister of State is very welcome and I thank him for coming before the committee. The report gave a strong indication of a customer voice in Irish Water and how it will be funded. I would like to hear the Minister of State's opinion on this. Irish Water should be open to freedom of information requests. This issue was carefully thought out by the committee and it is important that it should happen. The Minister of State could not touch on every part of the report and I wish to raise the issue of mandatory leakage rates. The report sets down very clear markers on what must be achieved over a period of time. The key performance indicators should be regionally based because various parts of the country have different leakage rates. It would not be feasible to expect Kilkenny to hit targets as quickly as Dublin because Dublin has a 28% leakage rate and Kilkenny's is higher. However, a progressive improvement rate should be laid down.

Will the Minister of State reassure the committee that Irish Water's profits will be ring-fenced for reinvestment? With regard to waivers has the Minister of State had time to examine a system which would consider the household benefits package or the fuel allowance scheme? With regard to meters, the Minister of State mentioned a feasibility study and a cost benefit analysis. An opportunity will be created, particularly with regard to smart metering. If smart metering can be crossed with home care packages and cloud computing one could go online and check on one's elderly mother's water usage. For example if one could see she made a cup of tea at 9 a.m. one would know she was up and about. Has any detailed consideration being given to such crossover use of technology with a home care package?

The studies carried out show a high percentage of leakage is on private property. Is it possible to give an incentive when meters will be installed to reduce leakage on private property?

I will take the last question first. We examined some of the issues in the UK and some of the companies there fix the first leak for free and have arrangements to help out. The committee's report is clear and succinct. Dublin City Council stated it replaced 70% of the public infrastructure then 80% and 90%, but after it had all been replaced, the leakage rate was still 19%. The reason was the problem continued to exist on private property. The Deputy is absolutely correct. The key performance indicators which the regulator will have to attach to any charging system will comprise a planned programme of reduction of leakages. As the Deputy correctly pointed out, Dublin now has one of the lowest leakage rates in the country while the rate in Roscommon is very high, perhaps at 58%. This is a significant issue. If one charges for water one cannot have the leakage rate that exists in our system. This is one of the reasons we need Irish Water for the new synergies.

With regard to Deputy Stanley's question, at the beginning I made a point about privatisation and I stated we would be very happy to take on board any proposals he might have on what should be in the legislation when we publish it. I would be very happy if his party or any committee member has proposals which would strengthen the legislation. There is no privatisation agenda. Were there one, Irish Water would not be going to Bord Gáis. It will not be privatised while the Labour Party and Fine Gael are in government.

The consumer's voice is critical. In running Irish Water, the regulator will be seeking the public's views and taking them on board. However, the Deputy is correct in that we need strong consumer advocacy on the company's board. Taking the committee's opinions on board forms part of our listening process, and this point specifically is one that we must address. Mr. Galvin might wish to discuss the technical issues raised.

Mr. Gerry Galvin

In terms of the incentive for customers to reduce leakage, the first step is to advise customers that there is leakage on their side of the meter. In advance of the introduction of charges, they will be issued with dummy bills showing what they will be charged once charges are introduced in respect of the amounts of water passing through their meters. As UK water utilities do and as the Minister of State indicated, Irish Water will decide on policies to incentivise leakage repair on the customer's side. For example, some UK utility companies offer to carry out one repair for free while subsequent repairs are paid for by the customer. Smart metering would be one way to provide this type of information to consumers. As the CER announced in recent weeks, however, the smart energy metering programme will start to be rolled out only in the 2015-19 period. Currently, the synergies with water metering do not exist. In conjunction with Bord Gáis, we are considering what types of technology are available to provide information to consumers in advance of the introduction of water bills - for example, the cloud computing-type approach suggested by the Deputy or a key fob meter reader. Meters have a finite life and there may be synergies in the long term when they are replaced after smart metering has developed sufficiently. I expect the technology to develop and water metering to be piggy-backed onto smart energy metering.

It is like buying a computer. One can buy one today that will sing and dance, but the technology will be even better in a year's time. What is key is buying a system that has the capability to connect with other meters.

I thank the Minister of State and his officials for reporting on progress. No one underestimates the significant challenge of implementing a new Irish water authority. I welcome the Minister of State's openness in engaging and consulting fully with all stakeholders. It is important that we communicate with local authorities, agents and the public. In the case of the public, this could be done through public representatives.

What progress has been made in terms of the quality of information concerning the asset, that is, the network of water mains? I presume that local authorities use inconsistent databases. Is work on compiling these databases into an overall, consistent asset management system ongoing? That system would map mains and services and record the network's maintenance and leakage histories. It would be a key aspect of any plan.

Specific challenges will present. When the Minister of State visited Waterford city, I am sure he heard about the large sections of the old inner city where water services were to the rear of properties, making metering difficult. The city has hundreds of such houses and there are more around the country. What are the Minister of State's proposals in this regard?

Mr. Gerry Galvin

Deputy Coffey is correct regarding the quality of information and the different systems in which it is found. Information on water mains is significantly better than information on sewers. A great deal of data on the former have been collected through the water conservation programme. We have received input on this issue from local authority officials while developing the implementation strategy. Following publication of the strategy, one of the work streams to be initiated in September will be to determine how asset data, particularly asset condition data, can be collected and assimilated in a manner that allows for proper asset management planning by Irish Water. In turn, this will determine what strategic investment will be required of Irish Water and what other investment decisions - for example, whether to continue repairing leaks in a section of the mains or to replace the section - will need to be made. The data will be crucial.

Where rear connections to properties are concerned, the mains rehabilitation programme that is already under way among many local authorities, including Waterford City Council, is providing for their replacement with frontal connections. This work will continue under the water services investment programme. We have identified a number of properties with individual connections, such as those to which the Deputy referred as well as multi-occupancy buildings such as flats and apartment complexes, that will not be individually metered in the first round of the metering programme. Irish Water will consider this issue subsequently to determine how best to meter those properties economically. With regard to the Waterford houses with individual services, the simplest way will be through the mains rehabilitation programme.

How will they be charged in the meantime?

Mr. Gerry Galvin

The proposal is that they will be subject to assessed charges initially. This will be in line with how other metered houses in similar situations will be charged.

I thank the Minister of State for appearing before the committee. Before I invite other members to contribute, I wish to refer to the five recommendations on the waiver scheme in section 1.12 of the report.

The committee's report challenges the type of discourse coming from the Minister, Deputy Hogan, and the Department concerning an allowance for every household. We considered this approach from a number of angles, including whether it was a sustainable business model. I will provide a comparison. If someone went to the pub and asked for four pints, it would be like being given the first two pints for nothing and being charged €10 for every subsequent two pints. This is the business model involved in providing a household allowance. If the company is to be financially sound and the charge is applied to every household, the charge on the additional litres must be doubled.

Water is a precious resource. If we are to target resources to households that are in need and are struggling because of incomes and so on, one must question whether a blanket allowance for every household is appropriate. What consideration have the Minister of State, the Minister and Bord Gáis given to this issue? Will we still proceed with a broad household allowance or will there be a change to the system?

The programme for Government is clear on this point. It reads: "The objective is to install water meters in every household in Ireland and move to a charging system that is based on use above the free allowance".

What will that allowance be?

It will be decided by the Government.

The committee's considerations assumed an average daily household consumption of between 120 litres and 150 litres. Multiply this by 365 and the amount of water consumed is significant. Let us take an example of four adults, without illness and not old, who can use the modest amount of 500 litres per day per household. The Danes have the lowest water consumption in Europe and operate at 120 litres per occupant in a house. If we multiply that figure by about four the sum is 450 litres of water per day. Perhaps an allowance system would incentivise consumption rates. There has been a strong suggestion made by the committee and groups like Social Justice Ireland and IBEC that a household water allowance would be inequitable. First, both the poverty proving agencies and business sectors claim that a household allowance is inequitable. Second, it would undermine the corporate governance and structure of Bord Gáis Éireann and Irish Water in the future. Third, the original idea sounded good but now needs to be examined.

I listened to the Chairman's comments and the emphasis he placed on a need for debate. I am happy to convey his views to the implementation group and to discuss them with it. I must point out that the programme for Government provides for a free allowance.

The programme for Government can always be changed if it makes sense to do so.

Yes, but I cannot change it. With regard to the question on low income households, many people have made strong representations on that issue. All of their views will be added to the debate and given due and weighty consideration. The Department of Social Protection has also been contacted about issues surrounding the matter. No decision has been made yet and the views expressed here will be given due consideration.

I can assure the Minister of State that a cost analysis would prove that the policy is not the way to go and that a corporate examination by Irish Water, or whatever it will be called in the future, would agree. I can almost certainly assure the Minister of State that when the costing regulator comes on board he or she will also agree that it is not the way to go. I will make a pertinent recommendation and suggest that my committee's report be examined in great detail.

I can assure the Chairman that we will do that. There will be due deference to what he has said. We will give considerable weight to the points that he has made when I report to other people.

I shall first call Deputies McLoughlin, Corcoran Kennedy and Deputy Luke ‘Ming' Flanagan together, to be followed by other members later. I call on Deputy Tony McLoughlin to commence.

I welcome the Minister of State and his officials. My first question is on establishing a programme of management structure this year. Is it in place? What is its up-to-date position?

Last year we visited Northern Ireland and we discovered that serious issues arose when the local authorities and Northern Ireland set up its system. I appeal to all interested bodies to respect the expertise of the local authorities here, irrespective of whatever other experts are brought on board. I saw it myself when I was a councillor on Sligo Borough Council and Sligo County Council. There are specific people who know where problems exist and start and it is vitally important that we do not lose sight of the expertise that local authorities have. Has there been any consultation between Bord Gáis Éireann and the local authorities in Northern Ireland because serious issues did arise? Does Bord Gáis Éireann envisage meeting its Northern Ireland counterparts? Is that an issue?

Local authorities acting as agents for a considerable period was mentioned earlier. How long will the local authorities be involved? I firmly believe, and it has been brought to my attention, that there are defective and old pipes. How will existing problems be overcome? The Minister of State answered the question on smart metering but perhaps he will answer my questions that are of concern to me and others.

If the Minister of State does not mind, I shall take composite questions.

I welcome the Minister of State and his officials and thank them for being here this afternoon. I welcome the fact that they appear to have taken into account a significant amount of the recommendations made in our report because a lot of work went into it. I concur with the comments made by previous speakers on waiver systems and smart metering. I hope that all of the comments will be taken into account and I welcome that there is a view to proceed on a phased basis. It is a great change in how we handle something that is so vital to us all. Water is vital for providing life for us all.

An enormous amount of infrastructure work needs to be carried out. Has consideration been given to allowing Irish companies an opportunity to tender for these public service contracts? Has there been an examination of how Irish companies can benefit? They have an opportunity to apply via e-tenders but public service contracts can be tendered for in such a way as to invite more smaller operators and Irish companies to apply.

I look forward to the implementation strategy being produced. Will it include water harvesting? Will it be included later on? Water harvesting could be done in public buildings and private properties.

I thank the delegation for attending the committee. Value for money was mentioned a good few times along with the fact that water provision would not be privatised. How does the design, build and operate, DBO, system of treatment plants fit into the strategy, particularly regarding value for money? Several groups have contacted me about the value for money gained from DBOs. If we can get better value for money then the customer or consumer will benefit. The people that have approached me about DBOs have expressed their concern that if DBOs can be proven to make financial sense then they should get the go ahead and who could disagree with that? We have been told that the Comptroller and Auditor General cannot investigate whether they are value for money. What does the Minister of State think of the situation? If DBOs are not value for money then people will have to pay more money for water in the future.

I shall now deal with the idea that we are not privatising. We might not be privatising in one big sweep but we are doing so little by little. The arms, legs and toes of this body are being privatised. I would appreciate if the Minister could answer my question on value for money. How can he guarantee that there is value for money? It appears that there is no guarantee that we are getting value for money. Can he also explain how we are not "privatising" when we are?

I thank Deputy Flanagan. I invite Deputies Catherine Murphy and Kevin Humphreys to contribute after the Minister of State has made a brief response.

I shall respond first to Deputy McLoughlin. His key point, and the one that everybody has made, is that it is paramount that the existing skills and knowledge base of the local authority continues and always continues. As Members will know, when one visits any water installation in the country it is not just the engineer but the caretaker and the person in charge, the plumber, who know where everything is and have worked all of their lives in the sector. That is why the expertise and corporate memory will not be lost and service level agreements will be put in place between Irish Water and local authorities stipulating that they will continue until 2017, at least. The measure will ensure a smooth transition for the introduction of the new model and guard against the loss of local expertise. It will also mean that the majority of staff will remain in the direct employment of local authorities for a considerable period and that Irish Water will retain a strong regional and local focus for operational delivery.

I shall ask Mr. Griffin and Mr. Galvin to answer the queries on technical issues and I am happy to answer more questions from members afterwards. I call on assistant secretary, Mr. Mark Griffin, to commence.

Mr. Mark Griffin

In response to Deputy McLoughlin's question about programme management structures, de facto we have had a programme management structure in place for the last year or so. There are very clear commitments in the programme for Government about what is to happen in the water sector and we have been working very hard to bring it to the current stage. We have resources committed to it in the Department. When one moves from policy to implementation it is clear that a dedicated resource will be required to drive forward the programme so we will be formalising that arrangement in the Department to deliver on the implementation strategy. Reinforcing what the Deputy said about the need to use the local knowledge that is available as well as the local knowledge that is necessary to operate and deliver on the capital programme, we are using the expertise that exists in the local authorities to assist us in developing the implementation strategy. As we roll out the various work streams, whether it is on the policy framework, legal or legislation, operations, capital or economic regulation, local authority resources and expertise in the sector that is there already will be assisting us in delivering that work.

That reflects the fact, as Deputy Corcoran Kennedy said, that this is a major transformational programme. The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan, has often described it as building the ESB almost from scratch. We must maintain the capital programme - there is a very significant level of investment of approximately €370 million this year - at the same time as introducing major transformational change. We must establish Irish Water, introduce domestic water charges and deal with all the issues the Chairman mentioned earlier regarding affordability, the tariff structure, waivers and how to ensure that we support the most vulnerable in society when we introduce water charges. All of that requires a collective approach using the expertise in the Department, the local authorities, the Commission for Energy Regulation, Bord Gáis and NewERA, with all of us working together to achieve the common goal set out in the programme for Government.

Gerry Galvin will comment on rainwater harvesting and water metering, as well as the issue of design, building and operate, DBO, and Northern Ireland.

Mr. Gerry Galvin

I will start with Deputy McLoughlin's reference to Northern Ireland. Bord Gáis Éireann was only appointed by the Government to fulfil this task less than two months ago so I cannot say whether it has been in touch with Northern Ireland Water. However, I and the Commission for Energy Regulation have been in contact over the last 18 months with the Northern Ireland Utilities Regulator, which regulates Northern Ireland Water, on the issue of the emergency response and how it managed the process compared to how it was managed in the Republic. Certainly, lessons are being learned from the Northern Ireland experience and how it transitioned from the central service provided by the Department of Environment water services to Northern Ireland Water. It was already centralised before it became Northern Ireland Water. However, the Deputy's point is well made in that lessons are being learned from both that process and the process in Scotland, which moved from the local authority to three regional authorities to a single national authority.

The Deputy's point regarding pipe condition is correct and is the point I was trying to address in responding to Deputy Coffey in terms of looking at the entire asset data. A crucial part of that is the asset condition. That is what will determine what the investment strategy and investment needs for the new Irish Water will be.

Deputy Corcoran Kennedy asked about procurement. The procurement strategy being devised for the metering programme is designed to get the best value for money by using national procurement for the supplies and goods, that is, the meters, meter boxes and so forth, while providing for the best value in installation in terms of allowing small and medium enterprises, SMEs, to participate by becoming part of a framework panel of installers which will then be managed by Irish Water for installing the meters. There is a very clear focus on facilitating SME participation to get the best value locally, regionally and nationally in the procurement of the metering programme.

The Deputy referred to rainwater harvesting. That is a huge area that requires further investigation regarding both its costs and benefits. We have carried out some preliminary investigation into it. Rainwater harvesting would only replace about 30% of household water consumption because one can only use it for toilet purposes. It is not suitable, without very sophisticated treatment, for any possible way it could be ingested either through food preparation or showering. It is only suited at a basic level for toilet use. It is also very expensive to retrofit into an existing property, compared to what that 30% consumption is likely to cost a householder. I believe the payback period for a household would be extremely long and would not justify the investment in retrofitting rainwater harvesting. It would be useful in new buildings, particularly new public buildings, to incorporate rainwater harvesting systems. Indeed, through contacts we have had with the Department of Education and Skills, we have learned that some of its new schools developments include rainwater harvesting.

Finally, in response to Deputy Luke Flanagan on the question of value for money and DBO, he will probably be aware that a value for money assessment of the entire water services investment programme was published in 2010. It found that the DBO approach was delivering value for money both in capital and operational terms. As the assets are not in private ownership, it is not privatisation. The service is being delivered through private sector contractors but the assets are paid for and remain in public ownership. They are owned by the local authority. Indeed, since earlier this year and in conjunction with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU, which is the nominated independent consultant, we have begun working on a process to demonstrate to the ICTU our approach to value for money and why we believe it is being delivered. Of course, once Irish Water is established it will examine that in its own right and the business case around how services are delivered. It might take a different approach from the approach taken in the Department through the local authorities to date.

I accept that the supply of water in the greater Dublin area is on a knife edge. I see it myself in my own area. There are shortages in both the winter and the summer. However, when discussing the metering programme it is really important to factor in the change in behaviour and the change in the need to invest whereby we can get more from what we have already. That must be kept at the forefront.

The point I was trying to make about charging the 1.8 million households is that some of those households contain the working poor. They cannot all be on social welfare, and the administration of a waiver scheme starts to become counter productive. The free allowance is important in this regard because it might mean people will not have to seek a waiver, because they are adequately provided for under a particular provision. I accept the point the witness makes about the price going up but the administration of a waiver system would be an absolute nightmare and hugely expensive. That must be factored into the equation when considering the free allowance. One of the issues with the free allowance is that it involves the acceptance of an element of charging. Otherwise, there would be major resistance to charging for water if it was being charged for from the first glass of water on. That must be considered.

In essence, the Deputy means that the ESB and Bord Gáis would give an allowance. That would be a corporate model through which the poor would get less support than they get at present. I know the Deputy wants that in the latter end of the report but if the Deputy runs the numbers, she would understand the issue.

I understand the issue, but we have a different take on it.

I call Deputy Humphreys.

The PWC report recommended a water basin charge. Can the witnesses clarify that they are thinking along the lines of a national rate rather than a regional rate, and that the PWC thinking is old hat? With regard to their thinking about how this managed, many urban areas have a combined system. How will maintenance, ongoing repairs and separation be organised? Who will allocate responsibility for various areas? I would hate to see a service falling between two stools with no one taking responsibility for it.

How will the free allowance be allocated? International statistics show a difference of approximately 15 litres between the water consumption of males and that of females, but the differential between a household of two people and a household of more than five people is as little as five litres. I do not expect an immediate answer to this question.

Mr. Gerry Galvin will give us the answer to that.

I am looking at the Dutch model in the 2008 statistical analysis. There are also Danish, French and German models, which are slightly different. The Dutch statistical model is probably the best I have come across. If there is a better one, Mr. Galvin might point me in its direction.

Mr. Gerry Galvin

I cannot point Deputy Humphreys in any particular direction, but this is an area the CER is already looking at. The commission is gathering information from other jurisdictions on the different approaches adopted to tariff regimes, charging systems and the provision of supports for low-income groups. In preliminary discussions between the Department and the Commission for Energy Regulation, the commission has indicated that when it has developed an outline tariff structure it will go to public consultation, as is done in the area of energy regulation. The public, elected representatives and stakeholder groups will all have an opportunity to give their views on the form, structure and nature of the tariff regime to the CER.

Combined sewers is the sort of issue we describe in the implementation strategy as a boundary issue which will have to be worked through over the course of the next 12 or 18 months prior to the establishment of Irish Water. In many cases it will be a matter of going down to look at individual pipes to decide who is, or should remain, responsible for them and what arrangements should be put in place between the two bodies concerned to ensure that responsibility does not fall between two stools.

One national charge will be universally applicable across the country. There will not be regional differentiations in charging.

As Mr. Galvin said, there will be a huge amount of public consultation on all of these issues, particularly with regard to charging, and on the very important points made by members before a final decision is made by the regulator. These are important issues and we must get them right. The only way to get them right is to listen to what people are saying and try to apply the best solutions to resolve the issues.

I thank the Minister of State, Mr. Mark Griffin and Mr. Gerry Galvin for coming before the joint committee. I hope this will not be our only opportunity to discuss the report on water provision. I see this meeting as part of a rolling process that will take place over the coming period. In that context, I hope to ask Bord Gáis to come before the joint committee before the end of the year so we can see how it is progressing with the transition to Irish Water.

Bord Gáis has an implementation plan.

That concludes this phase of our consideration of the topic. The meeting will suspend for a few moments to allow our next witnesses to take their seats.

Sitting suspended at 4.14 p.m. and resumed at 4.16 p.m.
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