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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS debate -
Monday, 11 Nov 2002

Vol. 1 No. 1

Visit by EU Commissioner for Agriculture and Fisheries.

I welcome Franz Fischler, the EU Commissioner for Agriculture and Fisheries and his delegation from the European Commission, including Mr. Peter Doyle, director of the European Commission office in Dublin; Ms. Maeve Doran, Deputy Head of Cabinet; Ms. Mary Minch, Director DG Agriculture; Mr. David Armstrong, adviser to the Director, DG Fisheries and Mr. Philip Ryan, Deputy Director of European Commission Representation.

We are delighted the commissioner is attending the meeting. We do not normally have such a large attendance, particularly on a Monday, which is an indication of the interest in fisheries and agriculture in the Oireachtas and the European Parliament

As time is short, I will be brief with my opening comments. We began a new procedure of scrutiny here in July. The European affairs committee goes through a process of scrutinising legislation in advance and sending it to other committees. Ministers now appear before committees before they go to Council of Ministers meetings and exchange views. This is a significant change. We have been taking into account the concerns people expressed about the democratic deficit, particularly after the first referendum on the Nice treaty. The commissioner's visit today will help to close that deficit and we greatly appreciate it.

I invite the commissioner to make his opening statement followed by two rounds of questions on agriculture and fisheries. Bearing in mind the amount of time available, Mr. Fischler could break up the time between the issues.

Commissioner Fischler

I thank the chairman and members for their kind invitation to come here and have this exchange of views about the future of the Common Agricultural Policy and Common Fisheries Policy. As it is not necessary for me to make many comments I will limit my remarks so that we will have more time for discussion and members can raise matters of concern and ask questions which I am prepared to answer.

I appreciate the outcome of the referendum on the Nice treaty. It was an important and decisive step to make enlargement possible. We are now approaching the final stage of the enlargement negotiations and we hope we will conclude them successfully during the Copenhagen summit.

Some decisions were made regarding the CAP at the Brussels summit giving us a financial framework for its future until 2013, except in the area of rural development where no ceiling was fixed. Members will know that in regard to other parts of the CAP we fixed the amount for 2006 and in the following years the amount will be increased by only 1% per year to take into account inflation. With this money available, we must deal with all the challenges ahead of us. The main challenges, apart from enlargement and making it a success, are international obligations - particularly on the Doha round - as well as the concerns of our citizens that the CAP is sustainable and that they get value for money from their taxes. It is also important that we make a decision soon on other international obligations because a wait-and-see attitude will have more disadvantages than advantages.

On the Common Fisheries Policy, all member states agree on the necessity for reform and on the need to make a decision before the end of this year. In addition, there are new problems we have to solve, the main one being the position in relation to cod fishing. Members may be aware of the new scientific advice in this area. This advice means we should stop cod fishing plus all cod-related fishing which for the Irish fishing fleet would mean more or less to stop fishing altogether. We are well aware of the huge social and economic problems such a moratorium would create. Therefore, we are seeking alternatives. We must find alternatives which allow us to continue fishing activities to a lower degree but which give us a clear guarantee that it will be possible to recover the stocks. It would not be sustainable either to have concerned fishermen and no fish to fish.

Our intention is to decide in December on fisheries reform and to decide at the same time about improved cod recovery plans. These are the main issues under discussion at present at a European level and I look forward to hearing the views of members and what they perceive as the way forward to a good future for the Common Agricultural Policy. I emphasise the word "common" because we should avoid any type of renationalisation of these common policies.

We will have a round of questions on agriculture and following Mr. Fischler's response, a round of questions on fisheries.

I welcome the commissioner. What are the political implications of the Franco-German accord, arrived at the week before last at the Brussels Council, for the successful negotiations of the development round between the north and south and particularly between the European Union and the Third World with regard to agriculture, prices and liberalisation?

As a new member of the committee, I welcome the commissioner. Milk production is vital to sustaining family farming in all of Ireland but particularly in the west, the area I represent. Already there is growing pressure to permit milk quota to be either purchased or leased for processing outside the region. I ask the commissioner to use his influence, particularly in the context of bringing forward rural development measures, to ensure milk quota can be ring-fenced within a particular region.

The commissioner has proposed that money saved by reducing direct payments to farmers should be redirected to rural development. I am pleased to note there is no ceiling on the rural development budget. What exactly has the commissioner in mind? It is difficult for Irish farmers, particularly those in the west, where farms are small and farmers often rely on off-farm employment. I would like a clearer idea of the rural development measures being proposed by the commissioner.

Since his appointment, the commissioner has not visited the west of Ireland, although he has received a number of invitations. I issue another such invitation to him.

I welcome the commissioner. I represent an almost completely urban constituency where the greatest interest in food policy relates to the price of food from a supermarket, for example. Is the commissioner satisfied that consumers in Ireland and in Europe are able to buy their food at reasonable prices? Is there enough competition in the food sector, especially the food processing sector, to make sure prices are kept at an affordable level for the ordinary consumer? Is there a future in Europe, in the next five to 15 years, for small-scale farming? Is there a viable model for this? In the future, will we still be able to buy food directly from the farmer or from small country markets?

I thank the commissioner for meeting us today for this exchange of views. I will confine my remarks to the question of the future of CAP reform. While I agree with the commissioner that we need a strong and sustainable agricultural policy, particularly in the enlarged Union, I disagree with his proposals, which have been extended to 2007, thankfully, for the 20% cut. I understand, however, that he is still pursuing the idea. We need to encourage, not discourage, agriculture. There is a crisis in agriculture here. People are leaving the land in substantial numbers. Young people do not want to take over family farms - they are almost non-viable. Further investment is what is required in agriculture, not further measures to discourage farming.

In relation to community preference, for example the policy on importation, at present Ukrainian wheat is coming into Ireland and devastating the market, as I am sure the commissioner will agree. It also raises questions of trade stability, quality assurance and so on. I know why the Commission has allowed countries outside the WTO and the EU to trade in countries such as Ireland, but we must protect our markets. Importations are having devastating effects on the agricultural sector.

I thank the commissioner for his comments. He is probably aware that there is opposition to his proposals from the establishment in Ireland. Most of the farming unions, except one, and most of the political parties are against them. Part of the reason is that they do not have the details. It is almost four months since the original document was published. When can we expect to see the details? Until we do, it will be difficult to come to a final decision on the matter.

How did the Council decision on budgetary allocations for agriculture in an enlarged Europe, which was taken on 24 and 25 October, affect his view on the direction of policy? Has he had to make changes to it? Following on from this, can we take it the 20% reduction in funding is gone, given that there appears to be no limit on the rural development budget, or does the commissioner hope to follow up on that?

The commissioner sells the concept of decoupling on the basis that it will strengthen our hand in the WTO talks, that we have the Doha agreement and that it would make us more market-oriented. We have a system of premiums which does not recognise quality. This is something the commissioner could look at independently. It is not sustainable to have a system where the same amount is paid for a poor quality animal and a good quality animal. Irrespective of whether his proposals go ahead, could he consider a change in this system? This in itself could make producers more market-oriented.

The commissioner mentioned the Doha agreement. Irish consumers are concerned about the quality of non-EU products storming the market. Deputy Harkin mentioned grain from the Black Sea area. Maybe the evidence for this is only anecdotal, but is the commissioner satisfied that the non-EU products we import are subject to the same scrutiny the EU imposes on itself? In the commissioner's speech to the agri-Euro mid-term review at the end of October he mentioned the concept of the American farm Bill and the fact that it was welcomed by the Cairns Group. We seem to be formulating a policy to comply with the WTO, yet the Americans and the Cairns Group seem to be departing from where we are heading. I think the phrase used was "the commonality of position" with the Americans.

The commissioner's presence here underlines something which was evident during the debate on the Nice referendum, namely, the need for a close relationship between the Commission, the European Parliament, the institutions of the State and the people. There seemed to be a sense of disconnection between the institutions. I hope the commissioner's visit will be the first in a series of such visits.

With regard to the CAP, I would like the commissioner's response to a couple of propositions. I am a practising farmer. Will I be paid to be a mere custodian of the countryside and not for what I should be doing, producing food? I note that in his speech, which was referred to by Deputy Timmins, the commissioner spoke about the concept of food safety. He said it was of the highest priority. How can food safety as an objective be consistent with talks about decoupling and payments being directed to rural development, which I welcome?

When we last reformed the Common Agricultural Policy, compensation was available to cushion the effects of the declining prices. That is not evident in the latest proposals. If I am wrong about that perhaps the commissioner would correct and enlighten me. Are we moving towards world prices in an effort to accommodate our position within WTO? How will we possibly maintain the number of people on the land other than as custodians of the countryside?

I, too, welcome the commissioner. Will the decoupling payment be paid to the owner or to the user of the land? Given that farmers will not have to produce anything, what impact will this have on Irish agriculture? Regarding propositions, I would like the commissioner to set the threshold for modulated payments at the average industrial wage rather than the amount proposed and that the producer, not the landowner, receive the payments. I would also like him to consider reducing from €300,000 to €100,000 the ceiling for maximum payments and the money saved could be directed towards rural development within each member state.

Does the commissioner believe he will be able to finance compensation for the milk reform which will obviously involve substantial disruption if it means the quota system being set aside? There will be substantial disruption and significant demands for compensation. Can he finance that within the limits set between President Chirac and Chancellor Schröder? What are the prospects for the continuance of export refunds for beef, given the promises made at the Doha round? For every one tonne of beef we consume at home we have to export nine tonnes. Much of that has to go outside the Union and relies on these subsidies. Will the commissioner be able to take care of all these issues within the Chirac-Schröder financial straightjacket.

The commissioner is very welcome. When we met here some time ago I criticised him for making a 20 minute speech to the agriculture and food committee without mentioning the customer once. I do not take credit for it, but since then he has mentioned the consumer frequently and I appreciate it.

In last month's agreement there was another voice I did not hear mentioned, that of the developing world. As a nation and as a union we send help to the developing world in the form of cash payments and settlements to relieve our consciences. The greatest step we could take would be to reform the Common Agricultural Policy so that these counties could earn their keep by being able to export to us. They cannot do this at present and we are closing the doors on them for another 15 years. Does the commissioner hold out any hope for a Common Agricultural Policy that would assist the developing world?

Commissioner Fischler

It would be difficult to go into the details of all the questions that were raised because there would not be enough time. I apologise for that. I will start with the Franco-German accord. What was in the Franco-German accord is less relevant than what was in the conclusion of the summit. That is what counts. As far as financing is concerned, what they did was fix the level of payments for 2006. This is for financing and market measures for the 15 members of the EU, plus the direct payment that was decided in Berlin in 1999. For new members, the Commission proposed, as the financing framework, the phasing in of direct payments and financing the other market measures. What is not part of this ceiling is the financing of rural development. This amount, which in nominal terms for 2006 is around €45 billion, is frozen. In the following years, from 2007 to 2013, there will be a 1% increase per year to compensate for the expected inflation. This is the financing concept and we have to finance with that amount of money the further phasing in steps for the new member states because in 2006 only 30% of the direct payments for the applicant countries will have been introduced. The other 70% must be financed with the increase of 1%.

In addition, it was decided in Berlin in 1999 to introduce milk reform. That was postponed and will now come into force in 2005. Therefore, the last two implementation steps of this reform must also be financed under this new framework. This means we are already above the limits, without any additional change. Financing for the period from 2007 to 2013 is not fully covered and we need a slight reduction in direct payments to the current member states to have solid financing. All necessary reforms in future, such as further steps in the dairy sector or reform of the sugar sector, will have to be financed under this new regime. One must consider how the money required for such reforms can be found.

All market organisation related reforms, such as those in the dairy, cereal and beef sectors, which were foreseen in the mid-term review in Berlin can be decided now and implemented before 2006. We must also adhere to our international obligations, especially the challenges presented by the WTO Doha development round. There are other international obligations, such as the implementation of the "Everything but Arms" initiative and some changes in the sugar sector.

That is the deal. No ceiling was fixed for the rural development sector and one must ask what effect that will have. It is an open question which must be answered within the negotiations about future financial prospects.

The question of modulation and money for rural development was raised. It is true that we proposed in our mid-term review to introduce a modulation or, in other words, to reduce year by year 3% of the direct payments under certain conditions, such as franchise, and to shift this money to the second pillar and use it for rural development. If we want to continue with that, it will be necessary to expand the rural development budget. Legally speaking, this is a change of the financial framework and it would not be possible before 2007. We must rethink the concept when we make our proposals.

What is our current thinking? Our next step should be to present impact studies and clear legal proposals. We can then discuss all the details and clarify some of the concerns that exist. Our intention is to make such legal proposals at the beginning of the coming year and to continue the negotiations then.

Is there enough competition in food pricing and processing? We must examine the food chain and identify the weakest links, the real problems. It is clear that we are acting in a demand-driven market and the nearer one is to the consumer, the better the position. Europe-wide, the greatest concentration is in supermarket chains, more so than in processing. I do not know the figures for Ireland but in Germany the five largest supermarket chains have a turnover of more than 90% of total food delivery. The five people who make the deals and decide which brands and products to buy decide on 90% of produce consumed.

Reflection is needed here, as it is in the processing sector. We are aware of the problem and know the present competition rules, at national and European levels, are not good enough to deal with these problems. A major study is being carried out and we expect the results of the study at the start of next year. This study deals specifically with price transmissibility. In terms of the price the consumer pays, how much goes back to the farmer, where do the reductions take place and to what degree are these reductions justified? Clearly, lack of competition is a big issue. We are carrying out the study into some of the main commodities such as beef, milk, sugar and cereals. I invite the committee to wait two or three months and then we will have a clear basis for further discussions.

I agree that further investment in the agriculture sector is necessary. This explains some concerns related to direct support. We must get rid of the idea that agriculture and the optimisation of farms has to do only with optimising the level of support. Most income in future will come from the market, not from Brussels. This is why investment is so important and why I favour strengthening rural development. The investment programmes are all part of rural development. They put in place targeted measures which allow the farmer to get a better price or to produce more. The farmer will get greater turnover. We must encourage further investment in agriculture.

The most important question is not the ring-fencing of the milk quota trade, but the future of the dairy sector and what will happen to the quota regime after 2008. In discussions with the candidate countries, I do not know of any that would favour the continuation of the quota system.

If we wait until 2008 we will not have the option of discussing which of the four options under consideration is the best because there will be only one option available at that stage. This is what Ireland has to consider and should think about - whether it is better to act now and to think about the possibility of the further promulgation of the quota system. Many people say we now have planning security until 2013. Yes, we have planning security for those who have developed budget planning, but we do not have security for individual farmers. If we want security for them, we must be clear about policy until 2013.

There are many concerns, in Ireland and elsewhere, about decoupling. More and more, the concern will be how to deal with the requests from the World Trade Organisation. We should be aware that the expectations of the other parties to the WTO are at least as big as they were when we dealt with the Uruguay round. We will negotiate and fight very hard but it would be an illusion to believe we will come out of the talks without any changes. This discussion is rather urgent because as soon as March 2003, the modalities will be fixed. It was agreed in Doha that by March 2003, the extent to which duties should be reduced, the degree to which market access should be increased, the degree to which export subsidies should be changed and the degree to which internal support measures, or direct payments, should be reduced should be already decided.

We have a clear mandate and there is no doubt we will act within it. Everybody knows, however, that this mandate is not good enough to reach a positive conclusion. Europe is different from America. The Americans can make practical or strategic proposals. Their proposal for the negotiations is clearly not in line with their present policy. Europe cannot do that because we can act only within the existing Common Agricultural Policy. This is clearly a disadvantage for us in terms of negotiating tactics. Therefore, we have to deal with this problem in the coming year. It is a major risk, at least if one has in mind the interests of farmers, to delay changes in the CAP until we are in the middle of future discussions on the whole financing system, when we will also discuss the structural policy, rural development and the other aspects of our policy.

This discussion will take place in 2004 at the latest. Thus, there are very good reasons to act promptly. A wait-and-see approach would create major problems. If this is true, we have to think about decoupling because this is the only way we can save money for farmers while at the same time being WTO compatible. This is the real challenge, and we have to think not in terms of how we can avoid decoupling but about how we can make decoupling acceptable to farmers and make it clear that our intention in the future will not be to pay farmers for staying in the bar or for what some describe as "doing nothing".

In the future, we will pay farmers only for doing something worthwhile. This is the area on which we can have a lot of discussion, reflect on better ways to address implementation issues and so on. We are open to discussion, but nobody should think we can avoid it. We have no interest in paying only for land ownership. We are prepared to pay only for real farming activities. Therefore, the money must go to those who run a farm, not to those who own land.

Where will I find the money for milk reform? As this question has been answered, I will deal with the question of the developing world. Europe is much better in this regard than some people think. It is necessary to make this more public so that people understand what we are doing, not only in terms of aid - we are by far the biggest donor in the world - but also in terms of trade. The European Union imports more agricultural products from developing countries than the US, Canada, Australia, Japan and New Zealand combined. This represents 40% of total world agricultural trade with developing countries. This will increase further because we are only at the starting point of implementing the "Everything but Arms" initiative. In the coming years we will have more imports, particularly of rice, sugar and bananas from the developing world. These are three interesting products.

In addition, we should also make clear to the outside world that it is not a fair comparison if one does not take into account, when discussing duties, that the EU gives clear privileges to most of the developing countries. Most of them are not exporting to us under the normal duties, they all have reduced duties under the generalised preference system, or agreements like those with the ACB countries or other specific arrangements.

I already mentioned that Deputy Ferris is deputising for Deputy Ó Snodaigh. I understand Deputy Coveney is deputising for Deputy O'Keeffe and Deputy Timmins is deputising for Senator Bradford. We have five offerings, Deputy Coveney, Deputy Glennon, Patricia McKenna, MEP, Deputy Ferris and Deputy Sargent.

I welcome the commissioner to Ireland. It is my first opportunity to meet him, and I welcome that. He has already met representatives of fisheries groups here today. I know they were anxious to meet him to discuss their concerns and I am interested to hear his comments.

I do not have only criticisms to make. I welcome some of the Commission's proposals on the Common Fisheries Policy, particularly in the area of enforcement and regulation. There are huge concerns among fishermen in Ireland that the regulations are enforced more stringently here than in other European countries. The proposals that deal with common regulation and enforcement across the EU are welcome and will gain support here. In relation to increasing the involvement of the stakeholder in the decision making process, the proposal for regional advisory councils is also welcome because the problems in relation to stocks vary massively across Europe and the ability to introduce area-specific proposals to respond to conservation issues is important.

I am concerned about fleet policy and would like to hear the commissioner's views on Ireland having only 2.5% of the EU's entire fleet with less than 4% of the EU quota, despite the fact that we have 16% of the EU's waters. The Commission's proposals seem to suggest that the best way to conserve stocks - everyone accepts we must do so - is to reduce the fishing effort over the number of days at sea. We have a major problem with this view because we believe there are other ways we can conserve stocks and keep intact the number of fishing vessels we have on the water. By reducing the number of days at sea, the number of fishing vessels in Ireland would reduce by about 400 which is about 25% of the fleet. If the policy priority is to conserve stocks first and foremost - which it must be because there would be no industry without stocks - but also to keep intact rural communities and a fishing industry, I do not agree with principles that would leave us with fewer but bigger fishing vessels. Most of the fleet carry out inshore fishing and keep intact rural communities in areas where there are no other industries. Our concern is that, by reducing fishing days at sea, the proposals will drive down the number of vessels. There are other ways to conserve fish stocks through, for example, mesh size which, scientifically, have been proven to work as well as net shape and design.

In the past week, the Irish Box has become a major issue for Irish people. At present we allow only 40 Spanish fishing vessels into the Irish Box. If that were to change it could have massive consequences for our fishing fleet and, instead of increasing the number of fish that can be caught in the Irish Box, we would like further restrictions for Irish fishermen and foreign vessels in this area because it is vital for fish spawning and breeding for European as well as Irish waters.

I welcome the commissioner to the committee meeting. I do not intend to take up too much time.

It is ironic that fisheries is being squeezed out at the end of a meeting which was devoted substantially to agriculture. I wish Mr. Fischler well in forthcoming negotiations and welcome the apparent positive tone emanating from this morning's meeting. I have no doubt he appreciates the importance of getting the balance right between the resources available and the fleet. Deputy Coveney has already given the relevant statistics.

What is the commissioner's view on financial aid for people who will be affected by the inevitable partial or total closures that will arise from the negotiations? Does the Commission have any proposals on the maintenance of the fleet's infrastructure and supporting industries during these closures?

Patricia McKenna, MEP

Like other members, I welcome the commissioner to the meeting. He knows I support the Commission's reform of the Common Fisheries Policy. The current cod crisis is a good example of how political management has failed to address the issues. The European Council has frequently set total allowable catches greater than the scientific advice. In the Irish sea, for 14 of the 16 years between 1987 and 2002, the TACs were set 28% higher than the scientific advice by the European Council. Politicians are reluctant to address the issue, which is particularly clear in relation to the cod crisis.

Since February 2000, a series of emergency measures taken by the Commission have been resisted by industry and the Council. This must change. Canada failed to address the issue and ignored scientific advice so that, in 1991, they had to close the cod fisheries in Newfoundland, Labrador and the Grand Banks and despite that, since 1991, the recovery of cod stocks has not happened. We need to address this issue in Ireland and I support the Commission's proposals.

The Commission's assessment refers to the monitoring system for catches and effort of Irish vessels. It states that, so far, the Irish authorities have not yet established a satisfactory database for monitoring catches and effort in the western waters. It seems irresponsible to say there is a major crisis with the cod stocks and on the other hand allow new fleets to come in before we have addressed the fact that there is no effective management and control system. Fishing vessels from Portugal or Spain will target species which are not controlled by effort so there will be a by-catch. The scientific advice is that not only should the fisheries for cod be closed but also areas where there are by-catches and there is a possibility cod might be caught. If one allows the Spanish and Portuguese into our waters one will inevitably increase fishing effort. I do not believe that is a good idea and I wonder if the Commission does. Legally, it can be argued they should have access but it seems to contradict what the Commission is trying to do. Should there not be a delay on this because of the impact it could have on fisheries?

Another Deputy referred to the possibility of having fewer but bigger vessels and that is a danger to the fleets. I raised with the commissioner on a previous occasion the issue of the Atlantic Dawn and the fact that the Commission capitulated to the Irish on the matter. What is the commissioner’s view on the owner of Atlantic Dawn transferring another of Ireland’s biggest vessels to a flag of convenience country, Panama? The Commission is trying to reduce the possibility of vessels being transferred to flag of convenience countries because a major conflict arises in that law abiding fishermen will have to compete with people who do not have to abide by the rule.

I echo everything that has been said by other speakers. I come from a fishing background and the fishing industry has been decimated in the past 35 to 40 years. There has been a reduction in the number involved in the fishing industry and these proposals will accelerate the flight of people from small fishing villages in coastal areas. We are trying to put money into rural regeneration but if this measure is implemented it will exacerbate the current problem. I understand approximately 25% of the fleet that fishes outside the 12 mile limit will be reduced, yet there is a proposal to open up the Irish Box and allow in more vessels. That does not make sense.

If we want to argue on conservation grounds, the people most concerned with conserving the fishing grounds are the fishermen. Allowing the other countries, including Portugal and Spain, to come within 12 miles of our coast, with their vast fleets, will create enormous difficulties. There is a great deal of anger among fishermen about this decision.

The fishing industry has been neglected since our entry to the EEC. The point was made by a previous speaker that only a small percentage of time is given to debating the industry. I live in a fishing area and I am aware that the fishermen are surviving by the skin of their teeth. To reduce their incomes further is a deliberate attempt to close down the industry. We need to examine that question closely and create an environment in which we can develop the industry rather than close it down, which is the intention of these proposals.

I apologise for being late. Fáilte romhat go Oireachtas Éireann. Commissioner Fischler, you are very welcome to the Irish Parliament.

It is absurd to consider allowing more vessels into the Irish Box while at the same time talking about the importance of conservation. The two arguments are contradictory. I come from a fishing constituency on the Irish Sea coast and the experience of the cod conservation measures to date is that certain boxes have been closed off. As a result smaller boats have been put in greater danger in terms of health and safety because they have to steam further while, at the same time, compete with the larger boats. Essentially, therefore, the larger boats which can also travel further and stay at sea longer are taking advantage of those conservation measures because once a box is opened up again they will go in and take the catch to the disadvantage of the smaller boats.

Is serious consideration being given to clearly defining the restriction between larger and smaller boats so that smaller boats are not included in the overall restrictions? For example, I would like to see the Irish Sea being restricted to boats of a certain tonnage so that smaller boats are not squeezed out while the larger boats can fish the rich pickings.

As well as being a health and safety consideration for fishermen who are pushed to the limits of their own boats, the issue of conservation arises when boats are decommissioned. I am not sure about other member states but Ireland has experienced serious problems with trawlers being decommissioned. Essentially they are being dumped in harbours which causes problems for navigation. There does not appear to be any thought out procedure - if there is, it is not being enforced - for what should happen to boats once they are decommissioned. Some boats are pressed back into service without licence and are fishing for an unregulated species such as razor fish. Essentially those boats are fishing illegally, certainly from a conservation point of view, but because there are no regulations in place they cannot be prosecuted but the fisheries continue to be fished out. We no longer fish razor fish, and I understand that is the case in Portugal and Italy, but that is an example of bad practice.

Will the commissioner indicate if the fate of decommissioned trawlers can be regulated? Fishermen have suggested to me that they should be required to be scuttled in areas where they will in turn help with the restoration of stocks and provide protected breeding grounds for certain species. Such an area will not be fished and effectively will be a graveyard for some of those fishing boats. That may in turn indirectly help the conservation work behind some of the proposals. Will the commissioner indicate if that possibility has been considered, whether the Commission has proposals and the way they will be enforced?

Commissioner, you said in a speech recently that safety is of the highest priority, starting with the production of raw materials both in agriculture and in fisheries. I realise this area is partly the responsibility of Commissioner Byrne but I understand you have been co-operating with him. What are your concerns in that area and are you happy about the safety of the food supply?

Commissioner Fischler

I thank the members for their questions. I will start by responding to the question on the Irish Box because this is an issue which, since last week, has been of major importance because of the position the legal service of the European Council has taken. The legal service of the Council stated last week that the regulations dealing with the Irish Box will be obsolete from 1 January 2003 because these regulations are partly based on the Spanish accession treaty. It is true that the relevant article of the accession treaty states that this article will expire at the end of this year. My legal advisers had taken a different position on that. We originally thought we could continue with the current system after 1 January 2003 and that we could discuss in more detail how we would like to deal in the future with the question of the Irish Box. After the positioning of the legal service, however, it appears that will no longer be possible.

I assure the committee that I have no interest in having a situation whereby, from 1 January 2003, all boats can go into the Irish Box to fish, although not all boats can fish there because they need to have regard to the quota. I am against an opening of the Irish Box because this box, ecologically speaking, is very sensitive. It is the spawning area for big stocks and it is an ecologically sensitive area. We also need regulation in this area in the future. We must deal with this issue in a non-discriminatory way and base our decision - the fishing sector here knows this - on the requirements of the environment or of the fish stocks. If this justifies the reduction of fishing activities - we are all aware that such justification is possible - this will be a matter of relevance to all fishing fleets in this box. In other words, we cannot say Irish fishermen can continue their fishing activities as they did in the past and that the fishing activities of only the other fishermen concerned should be reduced. We must reduce all fishing activities and then think about how we share this common responsibility. This is the way forward. The Commission will make proposals so that we can deal with this issue.

The idea of reducing fishing effort is a major problem and the fishing sector here does not like that idea. Those in the sector say we should improve technical measures in regard to the fishing gears that should be used in the future and so on. That view reflects some misunderstanding. It is not our intention that all other measures should be replaced by fishing effort reduction. We will still need the fixation of taxes and quotas. We would prefer a multiannual approach rather than all the bargaining every year before Christmas. We still need technical improvements, more so than in the past. We need to think about, for example, the closure of certain spawning areas and other such matters, but the scientists tell us that all these measures taken together are not enough. We have all these tools available, but obviously they do not work. I am not saying there needs to be effort limitation everywhere in the future, but it is required in certain cases. A good example of that is the cod sector. With more selective fishing gears, tuna can be saved and only adult fish caught, but the scientists tell us we must also reduce the number of catches of adult fish. This can be done only by the reduction of fishing effort.

We would like to look at these matters in a different way. We would draw up a priority list setting out where the most urgent action is needed. For example, for the time being it is needed in the cod sector, but we have other stocks. Herring and mackerel stocks are stable and there is no urgency to do anything in that sector. When we draw up a priority list we must develop a recovery plan for each of these sectors, at least for those where there is a threat to the fish stock.

In our regulation, we would like to offer a type of tool box. This is not a measure the Commission can introduce. A European Council decision is required to agree such a recovery plan. There should also be agreement on the instruments from such a tool box that should be used to make sure there is a return to stable stocks. This is the manner in which we examine these matters and we hope such an approach is agreeable.

This has nothing to do with fleet policy. It is not true to say that a reduction of fishing effort will automatically result in a reduction in fishing fleets. If taxes and quotas are not in place, there is no possibility to fish. The problem is that the control of fishing activities via fishing efforts has different effects, and the control is different. As long as management of the industry is based only on quotas, there is a risk. There is a mixed fishery here. Therefore, each fisherman and vessel does not have a quota for only a single species; fishermen here have quotas for different species. If the quota for one of these species has been fully used, fishermen tend to fish for other species. The species in respect of which the quota is already full is immediately part of the discount. This is the risk and this is something we can no longer accept. Therefore, it is better to limit fishing effort in certain cases.

With regard to fleet policy, it is not our intention, in principle, to request member states to reduce their capacity by a certain number of boats, but we would like to have a system in place whereby vessels that are scrapped can no longer by replaced by public money. While we will have to continue this discussion, a conclusion is needed for the December Council.

As to whether we should support fewer vessels, bigger vessels, or the owners of small vessels who depend more on fishing activities because they live in an area where there are not many alternatives, these are interesting questions on which we have some ideas. It is justified to a certain degree to support the renewal of vessels, apart from the question that we are prepared to support safety improvements on board, but big vessels by definition are more competitive and, therefore, it is justified, to a certain degree, to treat small vessels different from big vessels.

In addition, where possible in the future it is our intention to reserve certain parts of the sea or certain fishing activities for small vessels. This should form part of future management. I appreciate the positive reactions to the fact that we need better control and enforcement and that the stakeholders should be involved in the management of the sea in future.

With regard to decommissioning and the definition of how it will take place, this is, in principle, a matter for the national authorities. They are free to make such definitions and to introduce measures. We do not see decommissioning as merely sinking a boat somewhere in the harbour and bringing its plate to the authorities.

I take it the commissioner is talking about fishing vessels.

Commissioner Fischler

That is not our idea.

I was asked about food safety. It is true that I co-operate closely with Commissioner David Byrne on that issue. In recent months I simply reported the opinion of our citizens. The main concern of citizens is still food safety. For 90% of the EU population food safety is the most important issue in the agriculture sector. I do not believe there is a huge lack of food safety but our citizens are not given a good understanding of how we make sure our food is safe. This is what we must transmit to our citizens and what we must explain better. Some issues are still open and clear decisions are needed, for example, in regard to GMOs.

I thank the members for their contributions and for this interesting discussion.

You are welcome. We are delighted to have the commissioner at this meeting. We are concerned about closing the democratic deficit between national parliaments and Brussels. We learned that lesson from the two referenda on the Nice treaty. Anything we can do to close that deficit is welcome and the commissioner's attendance today will help in that regard. We do not normally have as good an attendance, so that shows the interest in closing the deficit, specifically in regard to agriculture and fisheries.

The next meeting of the committee will be at 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, 14 November 2002, when the Minister for Foreign Affairs will attend in advance of the General Affairs Council meeting the following week.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.45 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, 14 November 2002.
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