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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 26 May 2004

Genetically Modified Foods: Motion.

The first item on the agenda is the motion on genetically modified foods, in the name of Deputy Mulcahy. The motion was circulated to members last week. We have also circulated an amendment in Deputy Ó Snodaigh's name. I understand the second part of that amendment has been withdrawn, therefore we will deal only with the first part.

I call on Deputy Mulcahy to move the motion. The legal opinion you refer to in the motion has been sought and will be forthcoming in the next few days. I understand you want to circulate a schedule of dates and I will arrange for that to be done.

I move:

That this Committee:

—notes that the proposal of the European Commission to authorize the placing on the E.U. market of BT11 maize (genetically modified), failed to reach a qualified majority at the Council of Agriculture Ministers held in Brussels on the 26th day of April 2004.

—notes that the health and safety issues of BT11 maize had not been discussed in either Houses of the Oireachtas, or in any Joint or Select Committee of the Oireachtas, before the said Agriculture Council on 26th April 2004.

— further notes that this matter now falls to be decided by the European Commission.

—expresses its concern that such an important decision should now be made by an unelected body, ie. the E.U. Commission.

—requests that a legal opinion be obtained as to whether or not the power of the Commission to make such an important decision is either:

a) consistent with Bunreacht na hÉireann or

b) lawful under the terms of the Treaty of Rome (as amended).

Did every member get this document, BT11 — Modified Sweet Corn — Schedule of Dates?

We will circulate that now.

I move amendment No. 1:

In line 7, after "on 26th April 2004", to insert the following:

"regrets the decision of the Irish representatives to vote in favour of lifting the embargo on Bt-11".

I compliment Deputy Mulcahy on bringing this motion before the committee. It is a well thought out motion which goes to the heart of the problem regarding lack of consultation in that the proposal to lift the ban was not brought before the House or any of the committees.

This amendment is tabled in the spirit of the motion before the committee regarding the lack of consultation and the right to choice of elected members. The material that has been circulated, BT11 — modified Sweet Corn — Schedule of Dates, effectively means that elected Members of the European Parliament voted in favour of a motion which was not discussed in the House or in any of its committees. That is disenfranchising this House and the electorate. While fully supporting Deputy Mulcahy's motion, I believe this amendment will strengthen the spirit of what is contained in it.

I will take members through the document. The point I am trying to make is a procedural one. Regarding No. 1 on the document, on 11 February 1999 a proposal was made by a company to place this product on the market. On 8 December 2003, having gone through a scientific assessment, this matter came before the Standing Committee on the Food Chain and Animal Health in Brussels. If the decision had been made at that stage, this matter would never have come before the Oireachtas. That is what is known as the comitology procedure, as I understand it. It is a devolved authority which rests on the Commission under certain procedures of the Single European Act. Had the decision been made on that date the Irish public would never have heard about it.

On No. 2, because the official level committee could not agree by a qualified majority, it then had to go to the Council of Ministers and because it had to go before the Council, it came before the scrutiny committee here on 11 March 2004. We correctly referred it on to the health committee. We discussed it on 11 March 2004 but it was not until 13 May — No. 5 on the document — that it came before the Oireachtas health committee. That is a period of more than two months. During that two months, the Agriculture Council meeting took place on 26 April. Ireland voted in favour at that meeting but a qualified majority was not achieved.

Had the decision been taken at stage 4, European Council level, it would not have gone through the Oireachtas scrutiny process because the health committee did not have it in time, so to speak. I would be concerned that other proposals might be treated in the same way. In other words, items for discussion would be sent to sectoral committees but in the meantime the Council of Ministers would make a decision without the input of the Oireachtas. That is a serious matter.

Members will be aware from the document that on 13 May the Joint Committee on Health and Children unanimously rejected the proposal. On 19 May, the EU Commission decided to allow this product on to the market. It is a serious matter when the standing committee on health and the Council of Ministers cannot agree, and then an unelected body like the Commission makes the decision. That is not a reflection on the Commission; it has to make a decision. In many ways it is a reflection on the Council of Ministers. They have the sovereign power in Europe and they should decide whether to go forward with some proposal.

I am not just talking about decisions on genetically modified products. It could be a proposal on anything. The Council of Ministers should not abrogate their responsibility and leave it to an unelected body like the Commission because in ten years' time, when somebody asks about this decision and they are told it was made by the Commission, they will say the Commission is not an elected body. This case is an example of the democratic deficit.

I understand the legal basis for the comitology procedure stems from the Single European Act, which was passed by Ireland. The comitology procedure is as follows: once a framework regulation has been put in place, any number of decisions under that regulation can be taken by unelected bodies, bodies of civil servants or the Commission without referring back to the Council. This committee should brief the members on all the other areas where important decisions are being made under the comitology procedure because we may never hear about them. For all I know, decisions may have been made in 100 different areas which we will not hear about until they affect our lives in some way in ten or 20 years' time when it is too late to do anything about them.

I raise this issue not to discuss the substantive issue of GM foods — that was raised in the health committee — but to make the procedural point. We have to examine the timing involved here to ensure that it does not happen again.

At the end of the document from the legal adviser there is a quote from S. Douglas-Scott. It states:

It results in unelected bureaucrats exercising a strong hold over Community legislation through complex processes which are not even transparent to experts. The way comitology works is a mystery to most people, even EU specialists. The committees are powerfully placed to promote their own positions, especially if certain groups achieve dominance.

That is exactly what Deputy Mulcahy has highlighted, and it is of immense importance because I have seen items floating through the scrutiny committee, under vague and obtuse language, which nobody noticed.

It should be noted also that the scrutiny committee is not long established. This issue should be debated in both Houses to highlight it because it is important. These are the types of issues that concern people in that we might lose our grasp on what is happening to us. If that can happen in this area, it can happen in any area. Our own Constitution will become worthless and the decisions we make will be overruled.

The important point is that we were not aware of these issues. If we were made aware of them we could do something about them. We could agree or disagree on them, change the rules or whatever but if we are not aware of them we can do nothing. That is the reason Deputy Mulcahy's motion is of immense importance, and we should continue to highlight this issue.

I have been a member of the scrutiny committee since its establishment. The record will show I attended all but one or two meetings of the committee from beginning to end and there is no question of anything having been floated through, to use Senator Lydon's words. The scrutiny committee takes its work extremely seriously.

The issue before us is a complex one butthere is a danger of using a cop-out and blaming, in a disparaging way, unelected bureaucrats. COREPER exists for very good reasons. It tries to smooth the flow of European legislation originating from the Commission. That does not mean the representatives of national Governments have no engagement with it.

Deputy Mulcahy's motion raises important issues but it is not something on which it will be possible to have a coherent debate today. We have got legal opinion on it, which appears quite complex. I ask that people take time to absorb that and we could then invite the legal adviser to come before the committee to advise us on its implications. This Parliament has put in place legislative measures to improve the scrutiny of European legislation but that does not mean — and I am not a legal expert — that our domestic scrutiny arrangements would in any way override existing procedures through COREPER or the comitology process. It is far too complicated an issue to put to bed in one day.

The substantive issue regarding GM foods is an example of the way these types of issues tend to emerge unsatisfactorily from some people's point of view. We should try to avoid blaming civil servants and others who work on behalf of national Governments for any deficiencies we, as elected representatives, might be contributing to by our own less than adequate systems of scrutiny. I propose that we defer finalising our conclusions on this issue until we have had an opportunity to consider it further.

I understood we were coming here today to discuss genetically modified foods but what we are debating is totally different and probably much more important, namely, Deputy Mulcahy's motion on which I congratulate him.

I agree with Deputy Carey. This is a complex issue. We have only received in the past few minutes a quite detailed report — Senator Lydon was quick enough to find something in the last line of it. We have not had an opportunity to examine it and we should defer discussion of it on that basis.

Deputy Carey and I attended a meeting of the national economic and social forum earlier at which I quoted the President of the Czech Republic, whom I met some years ago before he was elected. I was talking about my enthusiasm for Europe but he showed anything but enthusiasm. I asked him what he meant and said I thought the Czech Republic would be happy to join Europe, but he said he was not happy about what was happening. I do not want to replace a Big Brother in Moscow with a Big Brother in Brussels. He said he was happy with the Europe he thought they were joining originally, and he used the word "subsidiarity" — decisions being made much closer to home.

Deputy Mulcahy has reminded us through his motion that there are some decisions we cannot make here because they are European decisions. We do not yet have an agreed formula to enable us to make those decisions and help in decisions being made in Europe. This is a complex issue on which we have just received this legal document and I would be unhappy to discuss it until we have learned more about it.

It is important to record that the scrutiny committee has worked diligently, with care and attention given to each proposal or amended proposal that has come before us. As a newly established committee we are learning as we go along. On any issues with which we had difficulty we asked for further information and got it. Then we took our decision. That is the first and most important point.

I agree this is an extremely complex issue. Like Senator Quinn I thought we were going to have an overall discussion on GM foods and then we would discuss the motion before any decision was taken. I had not anticipated getting legal advice, which is helpful because the matter being raised by Deputy Mulcahy is significant and important. It is on the agenda in the real world, so to speak. However, it is something we have to be extremely careful about.

Deputy Carey has made the point I was going to make that there have been various formulae regarding how this matter is dealt with in Europe. There certainly would appear to be gaps in the manner decisions are taken. That is why this is an important issue to have raised today. We need further discussion on it because of the implications of any decision taken here. I will be seconding Deputy Carey's motion that we should have a special meeting on it, with experts to discuss matters, including our legal adviser, before a decision is taken.

We have the legal opinion from the parliamentary legal adviser. I would draw your attention to just two paragraphs in it. One is on page 3, where she states:

In my view the power of the Commission to make decisions of this type (including on matters as important as GM food) is in accordance with the EC Treaty as interpreted by the ECJ. At least, in accordance with the letter of the Treaty if not in the spirit of the Treaty as some might perceive it.

There is also an important paragraph on page 4, near the end where she states:

Therefore, the power of the Commission to make decisions of this type under consideration here (including on matters as important as GM food) is in accordance with Bunreacht na hÉireann.

I would draw your attention to those two paragraphs. I am in the hands of the committee now. Has Deputy Mulcahy a suggestion to make?

I have no problem adjourning this motion. We should also note that in the European Union (Scrutiny) Act 2002 the only matters that have to come before the committee are what are called "measures". There are different types of measures. From my reading of the scrutiny Act, I understand that matters which come under the comitology procedure are not measures. Therefore there is no obligation for this type of decision to come before the committee pursuant to the scrutiny Act.

I believe the scrutiny Act probably needs some form of amendment so that important issues which come under the comitology procedure would also be included in the ambit of the Act. It is complex. I have just got the legal opinion myself. I would have no problem adjourning the motion to a future meeting. As Deputy Carey has suggested, perhaps we should bring in the legal adviser and discuss this in the light of the wording of the scrutiny legislation itself.

Members should note, however, that these types of decision are being made outside the scrutiny process. We cannot get away from that. As I said, on the schedule of dates, the decision could have been made at stage No. 1 and we never would have heard about it. It would have meant the ending of a five-year moratorium and nobody would have heard about it until after the event. By any standards this is a serious matter.

The terms of reference actually give the committee some of the powers the Deputy is talking about, which are not in the scrutiny Act. There is an issue there.

On page 5 of the legal opinion, it is stated:

The lack of scrutiny of decisions of this type is indeed a matter for concern. . . . This matter is the subject of a separate legal opinion under preparation.

It is important that the committee should have that because of the unlawful nature, perhaps, of this scrutiny issue.

Deputy Mulcahy's motion has given the committee an opportunity to look in greater detail at possible inadequacies that exist in current legislation. I am open to correction, but I believe we are due to make a report to the Houses of the Oireachtas reasonably soon concerning the operation of the scrutiny process. It may well be that in our report we might alert the Houses of the Oireachtas to perceived deficiencies in our scrutiny procedure which might lead to a proposal that the relevant Act be amended to allow greater scrutiny.

I do not believe that this or any other parliament of a member state will be in a position to get involved in the minutiae of what people do or think at the initial stages of proposals in Brussels. Otherwise we might as well shut up shop and just live in here. Let us be reasonably realistic. There has to be a balance between what we should do and what we can do as parliaments. I commend Deputy Mulcahy for providing the opportunity to debate this. Its ramifications are quite considerable.

A number of issues have been raised.

I fully concur with much that Deputy Mulcahy has said regarding scrutiny. One aspect of it, starting with the amendment that I edited on behalf of Deputy Ó Snodaigh, regrets the decision of Irish representatives to vote in favour of lifting an embargo. We have a democratic deficit as regards that, where elected representatives take a line in Europe that may not be consistent with the democratic wishes of elected representatives here. It is all over the place in so far as from a scrutiny viewpoint we are presented with a fait accompli without reference to the national parliament. From an elected representative viewpoint people are left to make decisions on their own accord, unless they were so instructed by the Government or their party leaders. Obviously, Irish representatives have voted in accordance with the party system. That I find worrying. It is a massive deficit in terms of the whole democratic process and this needs to be evaluated and factored into the debate.

The best thing is to request Deputy Mulcahy to withdraw the motion, with a view to re-entering it at a later stage. A number of issues have been raised. There is actually no procedure under Standing Orders for deferring the motion. I would suggest he should table a new motion. Members might consider other motions as regards the overall scrutiny procedure, which could be taken with Deputy Mulcahy's new motion; or he might consider expanding his motion to include some of the wider issues raised at this afternoon's meeting.

Subject to the committee's agreement, I have no problem in withdrawing the motion and re-entering it at a later stage. Perhaps the time to re-enter it is after the committee gets the second legal opinion.

The committee will leave it in the Deputy's hands.

This is subject to the committee accepting the withdrawal of the motion.

Is that agreed? Agreed. The amendment falls.

This is an interesting discussion. It has surfaced on relatively minor matters. We do not mandate Ministers, but committees in the United Kingdom, for example, seem to have that power. Is that the way the committee should proceed, since it is a relatively new forum? We have been learning as we go along. Could we examine the way the committee was set up, the scrutiny Act itself and broaden the discussion, now that we have some experience?

It may well be that we should follow the example of the Danish and Finnish parliaments where Ministers are mandated. No Minister of those parliaments may take any decision without the agreement of the European committee; and most of their meeting take place on Saturdays and Sundays. Discussions obviously take place at weekends. That is obviously what we are heading towards.

I hope we do not go in that direction. The principle of parliamentary democracy is that people are not mandated, they are elected and put into a position where they must make decisions. I accept that there is a little bit of give and take. If every committee was to tie the hands of those decision-makers when they go to Europe, we would not get anywhere. I was interested to hear what happened in Sweden, Denmark and Finland but I hope we do not go in that direction. However, that is a matter for another day.

The first annual report of the sub-committee on EU scrutiny is to be presented to the full committee at some stage. That would be the time to reflect on the inadequacies of the procedures in general. The motion, therefore, is withdrawn and the amendment falls. We ask Deputy Mulcahy to return to us with a further motion.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman need not worry, we are not letting go of this one.

We have just a few other items with which to deal. The minutes of the meeting of 12 May 2004 have been circulated. Are they agreed? Agreed.

The first item under correspondence is a letter from the chief executive of Co-operation Ireland in connection with the Peace ll Programme. It is proposed to note this item. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The second item of correspondence is a press release from the European Commission on the establishment of the high level group on the Lisbon strategy. It is proposed to note this item. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The third item is a letter jointly issued by Prime Minister Blair, President Chirac and Chancellor Schröder to all Prime Ministers, urging the development of clear priorities for the Lisbon Agenda. It is proposed that we note this item. Is that agreed?

Perhaps they will practise what they preach.

I am not sure I like the idea of these three gentlemen getting together and asking us to do things. However, I am sure we can note the letter.

Should we not be flattered that they are writing to us?

We will note the letter for the moment.

The fourth item of correspondence is a letter providing details of a conference on external relations and human security to be held in Croke Park on 31 May. Any Member who wishes to attend should inform the secretariat and suitable arrangements will be made. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I accept that we have agreed to note it but I wish to comment on the Peace ll Programme. This issue is particularly important for Border regions and inter-regional funds and the shape thereof and how they will be focused, etc. The correspondence was noted before I had the opportunity to comment. This is a matter into which we would like to have some input in the future and it is worthy of our consideration.

We will keep it on our agenda.

There is a further item under any other business. Members recently received an e-mail from Mr. Brian Carthy of the European Anti-Poverty Network seeking the committee's intervention in respect of the composition and remit of the recently appointed high level group on the Lisbon strategy. The main concern is that the composition of the group has ignored the social policy perspective. It is proposed to forward the committee's report to the high level group and also to seek assurances that the social policy aspects of the Lisbon strategy will receive suitable consideration. Is that agreed?

I was aware that it was hidden somewhere in the woodwork. In my view there is a deficiency in the high level group if that sector or strand is not represented. The debate on the Lisbon Agenda will be unbalanced and skewed in the direction of regulation, competitiveness, etc., if this sector is not represented. There must be a levelling out in the area of social cohesion and inclusivity.

Is it agreed to seek the assurances to which I referred earlier? Agreed.

The joint committee adjourned at 2.35 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 16 June 2004.

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