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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS debate -
Thursday, 8 Jul 2004

General Affairs and External Relations Council: Ministerial Presentation.

As there are few items to be discussed under the general affairs heading, I propose that we discuss external and general affairs together. The items on our list cross over into the external relations area. In view of this, the Department made this suggestion, which I consider to be a good one. The work programme of the Dutch Presidency is the main issue under the general affairs section. If there is no objection, we can cover the matter under both headings.

I welcome the Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs, Deputy Roche, in advance of the forthcoming General Affairs and External Relations Council. We normally take the general affairs and external relations sections separately. The former section of the agenda is a little lighter this month with the main issue being the Dutch EU Presidency programme, much of which relates to the external relations area. With the committee's permission, I propose to take both items together. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I congratulate the Chairman on a sterling election performance. We will miss him — not a lot, but we will miss him.

I thought it was a euro performance.

It was a remarkable performance in whatever denomination.

A Schengen performance.

I am joined today by Mr. Bobby McDonagh and Mr. David Cooney from the Department of Foreign Affairs. I congratulate the Chairman personally and have no doubt he will bring a great deal of expertise to the European Parliament, whose gain will be at some cost to the Dáil.

As the Chairman noted, matters on the general affairs side are quite light while there is a great deal of work on the external relations side. I am pleased to appear before the committee to review the agenda of the forthcoming General Affairs and External Relations Council. The Council meeting takes place in Brussels on 12 July and will be its first meeting during the Dutch Presidency.

On Monday, the general affairs aspect of the agenda is particularly light with attention being focused on the external relations aspects. The work programme of the Dutch Presidency is the only major item on the agenda. Ireland and the Netherlands worked closely together to ensure there would be both coherence and continuity between our presidencies. Ireland's EU Presidency programme was based on the annual programme for 2004 agreed with the Dutch Presidency. This in turn took account of the multiannual programme agreed by the six presidencies for 2004-06. The idea is to make the transition as seamless as possible.

The Dutch Presidency programme is fully consistent with the aims and objectives set out in the annual operating programme and will take forward the work of the Irish Presidency with regard to the various priority objectives established in the annual programme. These include the further enlargement of the European Union, work on its future financial perspectives, progress on the Lisbon strategy for economic social and environmental renewal, further development of the Tampere programme in the area of justice and home affairs as well as the European Union's external relations agenda. This item will involve a brief presentation by the Dutch Presidency and no discussion is anticipated.

There was to be a follow-up to the meeting of Heads of State and Government which took place on 29 June, 2004. The EU Presidency has indicated that it will seek formal agreement to the signature of the treaty establishing a constitution for Europe in Rome on 29 October 2004. There was some press speculation that it would be in November but the date has been brought forward.

Although not formally on the Council's agenda, members of the committee will wish to be aware that during an informal lunch organised by the Presidency on Monday next in the margins of the Council meeting, Ministers for European Affairs are due to discuss the follow-up to the communicating Europe initiative launched during the Irish Presidency. The objective of the initiative is to seek ways of communicating more effectively to the citizens of the European Union and to promote greater engagement by citizens in defining how the Union evolves in the future. As the committee is aware, the Irish Presidency convened an informal ministerial conference on Communicating Europe last April in Kilcoole and the initiative is being carried forward by the Dutch Presidency which proposes to bring together Ministers for European Affairs for a second ministerial conference on the issue in October. I am working on a reflection paper for that conference. In its Council conclusions last month the European Council welcomed the continuation of this Irish initiative.

I will turn now to the external relations items due for discussion at the Council. The first is the World Trade Organisation Doha development agenda. Commissioner Lamy is expected to brief the Council on the current state of play in the current round of WTO global trade negotiations, the Doha development agenda, and to give his assessment of the likelihood of achieving progress in the coming weeks. Progress in the negotiations has been very disappointing. There no longer seems to be any possibility that the original deadline for completing the negotiations, the start of 2005, will be met. Nevertheless, recent months have seen a growing commitment towards making a breakthrough and achieving some progress by this summer. A breakthrough before the summer ends would be important as from September onwards the focus in the United States will clearly be on the November elections.

The WTO General Council will meet in Geneva in the last week of July and the hope is that the Council will reach agreement on modalities, or a framework for continuing the negotiations. Preparatory talks for the meeting of the General Council are continuing but the task is not an easy one. It is important to recall that the outcome must be fair and balanced and acceptable to all. The European Union continues to maintain its commitment to achieving success in the negotiations. Much attention is focused on its export subsidies for agricultural produce. Commissioners Lamy and Fischler have indicated that the European Union is ready to discuss these, but only in a situation where all major trading partners are ready and prepared to discuss trade-distorting aspects of food aid, export credits and state trading enterprises. That is a significant caveat.

This month's Council will take up the situation in Iraq following the transfer of sovereignty on 28 June and the establishment of an interim Iraqi Government. The international community through its unanimous adoption of UN Security Council Resolution 1546 has demonstrated clear support for the political transition process leading to the establishment of a democratic Iraq. The goal of the European Union is to see a secure, stable, unified, prosperous and democratic Iraq that will make a positive contribution to the stability of the region. We are agreed that the European as a whole should work in partnership with the Iraqi interim Government and the Iraqi people with the aim of realising these objectives. With this in mind, last month we agreed a medium-term strategy for its relations with Iraq. Monday's Council will consider the specific recommendations and agree appropriate first steps to take. The EU Presidency has invited a senior figure from the Iraqi Government to attend the Council. This will be an historic event.

Ministers will also return to the subject of relations with the ASEM partners, the countries involved in the Europe-Asia meeting process. Currently, a central issue for ASEM is its prospective enlargement to include the new EU member states and, on the Asian side, Cambodia, Laos and Burma. There was a useful and constructive engagement between EU and Asian partners on the enlargement issue at the ASEM Foreign Ministers' meeting in Kildare in April. Following that meeting, and as agreed at the Gymnick meeting of 16-17 April, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, appointed a special envoy for ASEM who visited a number of ASEM countries to discuss the issue of enlargement. He also met the UN Secretary General's special representative on Burma, Mr. Razali. I also met him to discuss issues relating to Burma. Unfortunately, given our ongoing concerns about the situation in Burma — the serious and persistent human rights abuses, the lack of fundamental freedoms, and the absence of political progress, including the continued detention of Aung San Suu Kyi — an agreement on ASEM enlargement has not been possible.

Discussion among Ministers is likely to focus on the upcoming ASEM summit in October and Burma's application for membership of ASEM. Committee members will be aware of the Council's discussions on ASEM in June. It was decided that the EU could not participate in forthcoming ASEM Finance Ministers' and Economic Ministers' meetings unless they were attended by all 25 member states.

I understand the item on Indonesia has been deferred to a later date. The other issue of great significance is Darfur and Sudan. Ministers will consider the situation in Sudan. As we have discussed here before, the humanitarian situation in Darfur is bleak. At present it is estimated that over one million people have been displaced in Darfur and over 200,000 people have fled to neighbouring Chad. There was some progress in ensuring access of humanitarian aid to those most in need. The recent visit by UN Secretary General Annan brought commitment from all parties to engage in peace talks in Addis Ababa on 15 July. Ireland is committed to alleviating the plight of those on the ground. The Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, will shortly travel to Darfur to advance this process. The upcoming Council will discuss unfolding events, including Kofi Annan's recent visit, and consider a possible EU ministerial visit to the region. Council conclusions are also envisaged expressing concern and pledging EU support for peace talks in that region.

The regular discussion of the western Balkans will focus this month on the situation in Serbia and Montenegro, following the successful presidential elections in Serbia on 27 June. The prolonged political crisis in Serbia over the past two years has slowed progress in reforms. The election of Mr. Boris Tadic as President of Serbia offers an opportunity for the authorities in Serbia, and in the state union of Serbia and Montenegro, to re-engage with the reform process. Progress in reforms would enable early progress to be made in bringing Serbia and Montenegro closer to the European Union, based on the commitments entered into in Thessaloníki last year. Council conclusions will be adopted on developments in Bosnia, Herzegovina and Kosovo.

Members will also be aware that Afghanistan is on the agenda. Ministers will take up the issue where elections are scheduled for September. The security problem remains a source of concern. This concern is fuelled by an increasing number of attacks on personnel involved in preparations for elections, continued factional fighting in the north west and the recent deplorable murders of foreign nationals involved in humanitarian and reconstruction work. Elections are likely to be delayed but internal and international political imperatives are likely to require that presidential elections at least take place before mid-October. Development Cooperation Ireland is in discussion with the UN development programme to transfer funding, approved at €800,000, for elections. Recently the President of Afghanistan attended the meeting in Istanbul and he was anxious that funding would be made available to support the democratic efforts, particularly to make arrangements to facilitate proper democratic elections.

It is important that the international community should remain focused on how best to support Afghanistan in the period ahead. Ireland will continue to provide seven members of the Permanent Defence Force for a further period from July for service with ISAF, the International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan. They are based in Kabul and their posting is subject to ongoing review.

As for supporting Afghanistan's overall reconstruction, the European Union committed some €2.3 billion at the 2002 Tokyo conference to cover the five year period 2002-06. For its part, Ireland on that occasion pledged €12 million and it was disbursed in full. Afghanistan continues to face many serious challenges in the period ahead. Ireland and our EU partners are determined to play our part in this process.

Under the European Security and Defence Policy, this month's Council is expected to adopt a joint action on the European Union military operation in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Following a decision by NATO, taken at its summit meeting in Istanbul last month, to terminate its current SFOR mission in Bosnia and Herzegovina, an EU mission to follow on from SFOR is expected to be deployed before the end of this year. Further to extensive preparatory work that was undertaken in this area under the Irish Presidency, the joint action will allow for detailed operational planning to be undertaken in preparation for the EU mission. The Council is also expected formally to adopt the joint action establishing the European Defence Agency. It is expected that it will make a significant contribution to the process of developing capabilities, in a cost effective manner, in support of European security and defence policy. This will improve the EU's ability to undertake crisis management and humanitarian tasks.

I am happy to answer any questions on the agenda of the forthcoming General Affairs and External Relations Council. I thank the members for their attention.

I thank the Minister of State for his kind personal words to me. I express our appreciation, on behalf of the committee, to him and his ministerial colleagues for the work done during Ireland's Presidency and for the manner in which the committee was kept informed. Even though the agenda was very busy the Ministers continued to meet us.

Mr. Jim Mulkerrins was Clerk to this committee since September 2001. He is now the Clerk to the committee on Article 35.4.1° of the Constitution which will deal with a possible impeachment. He has been an excellent Clerk and a pleasure to work with. At all times he worked in a very professional manner and I know that the committee will join me in wishing him every success. He will be greatly missed. He was a person who got things done and did it quietly and professionally.

The committee will also join me in welcoming our new Clerk, Ms Siobhan Malone. She was promoted to Clerk to this committee. It is a well earned promotion as she has suffered as Clerk to the Sub-committee on EU Scrutiny since its inception. Again, it is a well earned and welcome promotion. Congratulations to both Mr. Mulkerrins and Ms Malone. I also welcome Ms Eimear O'Doherty to her first meeting as our new University of Limerick student.

I endorse the Chairman's remarks on the Presidency. Yesterday we discussed the Presidency in the Seanad. I thank the Minister and everybody else associated with the fine efforts that were made. I also join in the Chairm an's adieu to Mr. Jim Mulkerrins. I joined the new committee and hope we both survive the experience. I also congratulate Ms Malone.

My question is for the Minister of State and is on his specialised area of interest. I had the opportunity to attend a meeting in Wicklow with other members of the National Forum on Europe. It was a Presidency meeting entitled Communicating Europe. We had an interesting exchange of views. The forum has helped to demystify some of the European jargon. Yesterday, as the Minister of State is aware, the issue was raised in the Seanad. It is an ongoing concern. How does the Minister of State consider we can make progress in this area following the meeting in Wicklow and his most recent experiences? I am not clear what the main findings were in Wicklow. What will the Minister of State say to his colleagues when he discusses the matter at the next Council meeting?

At the risk of being repetitive I want to be associated with the Chairman's remarks. It always sounds artificial when one member state praises another. However, the Irish Presidency filled me with pride as it did the Irish people. In retrospect the EU enlargement was an even greater success than the EU constitution. It was done so smoothly. Our four big achievements were the enlargement, the constitution, and the highlighting of the Lisbon Agenda and the AIDS crisis in Africa. The latter has been recognised in the Dutch Presidency document. I add my own words of congratulations.

I was disappointed that on the evening on which the final negotiations on the constitution were under way in Brussels, the event was well covered by a satellite television channel while our two national stations did not deem it worthy of coverage of any description, which was rather strange. As a committee on European affairs, we should note this. Mention has been made here and elsewhere of a lack of communication and a lack of issues, yet one of the most historic moments in the past decade in Europe was completely ignored for live coverage by the national broadcaster. It raises questions.

Although the Minister of State will agree there have been many successes with the European Union, a number of anti-European or Euro-sceptic votes were registered in some of the elections to the European Parliament, particularly in Britain. That was the case to a much smaller degree in Ireland. In Britain, there was a large Euro-sceptic protest vote which we cannot ignore or denigrate. Rather, we must acknowledge it openly. The Minister of State began to address the issue by communicating the European message to Europeans. The other aspect of the challenge is to deliver Europe to ordinary people in terms of prices, services, jobs and other issues. Does the Minister of State feel that we can maintain progress in the delivery of Europe to ordinary people?

Enlargement will provide a busy agenda, not just in respect of Bulgaria and Romania, but also Croatia which has been given candidate status, and Turkey. The Dutch Presidency documents state that the Netherlands Government is surveying the positions of member states on the issue. I understand that in the autumn or early winter, the European Commission will present a report on whether to open negotiations with Turkey. Has the Minister of State been in touch with his Dutch colleagues or has he already made his position clear on Turkish membership?

I congratulate the Minister of State and his team in the Department of Foreign Affairs. They have done great work in the past six months which, as Deputy Mulcahy stated, has been a great source of pride to everyone. I also congratulate the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, and the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Tom Kitt, who also did significant work.

The media has reported issues concerning the EU budget in recent days. They have referred to the question of whether the Dutch Presidency will pursue the issue of the UK rebate. I have raised the issue on this committee twice before. The UK rebate costs this country €100 million every year and we sign over a cheque to the British Government for that amount. It arises out of an agreement made in 1984 when the position was substantially different — we had much greater agricultural subsidies and the UK was far behind the EU average in terms of national income. As a consequence, a large number of EU states now wish to re-negotiate, if not altogether abandon, the UK rebate. According to today's newspapers, the Commission has leaked a report on this issue, in which the budgetary Commissioner states that it cannot continue in the way it has done. Will the Minister of State press this issue, bearing in mind what we could do with €100 million? Yesterday, I heard the Minister for Health and Children state that half that amount would open any idle hospital wards that might require funding.

Many EU states have already signed bilateral agreements with the United States in respect of the International Criminal Court. Is it intended that Ireland also does so? Have we been approached by the Americans on that issue? What are the Minister of State's comments in this regard?

I too wish to be associated with remarks made about the Minister of State and the officials who have been working with the committee and those who are coming to the issue anew. I also compliment the officials of the Departments because I know how they have soldiered over the past six months and more. Some of us have suffered more than a little. I also congratulate the Chairman and his party colleague, Ms Avril Doyle, MEP on their successful election to the European Parliament.

Following on comments about the work of the Irish Presidency, I noted that the Minister of State worked closely with the European Parliament over the past six months. We noted, with a degree of pride, the amount of legislation which passed through the Parliament during the Irish Presidency. Apart from the Minister of State's talent to encourage various factions in the Parliament to co-operate, can he elaborate on why such an amount of legislation was passed and are there lessons to be learned in respect of how the Parliament interacts with the Presidency and the Council?

I was disappointed to hear about the pessimism associated with the WTO-Doha Development Round talks. I was at the UNCTAD conference a few weeks ago where the Irish Presidency took a significant part in advancing useful consensus. It was felt that the São Paulo consensus would have been more than helpful in facilitating some advances in the Doha Round talks. Therefore, I am taken aback to hear that there seems to be a stalemate.

Am I correct in assuming that Ireland and the other EU countries recognised the regime in Burma some months ago? In view of the fact that there seems to have been little or no progress in human rights and other areas, what was the value in recognising the regime? What precisely is the Irish contribution to alleviating the crisis in Darfur in Sudan? I understand the Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, is travelling there this or next week but will our contribution be through the NGOs or Development Cooperation Ireland?

Elections are pending in Afghanistan which is, in itself, welcome. Have there been any developments around supporting the emergence of a multi-party system there? The Loya Gerga system was in place to try to move the evolution of a system of governance. Is Development Cooperation Ireland or any other agency putting any funding into the development of a system of governance which would be appropriate to Afghanistan? I am alarmed by the dramatic increase in the production on the opium poppy. Will the European Union contemplate any measures, with its partners, including the United States and others, to try to curtail the production of opium?

Will the Minister of State decode the statement on page 7 of the document? It reads: "It is expected that the agency will make a significant contribution to the process of developing capabilities." What precisely would the European Defence Agency be expected get involved in at this stage?

Would it be helpful if I took those questions first as there are a number of them?

I will first take questions from Senators Lydon and Ormonde.

I congratulate the Minister of State, Deputy Roche, as I did yesterday in the Seanad, for the tremendous work he did during our Presidency, not just in terms of quantity but also quality. I extend those congratulations to the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Kitt, the Taoiseach and all the others who helped.

I have two brief questions, the first of which follows up on that asked by Deputy Mulcahy. I would also like to hear what the Minister of State has to say about Turkey because I had intended to ask something in that regard. My second question is in regard to Burma. I was surprised, given that we were unable to reach agreement on recognition, that some of the countries with which we do have agreements have human rights records that are not that great. Are we holding out on this recognition in the hope that some changes may come about in Burma?

This is very important. There is much good will towards Europe in many of the countries in east Asia. I was privileged to attend the ASEM meeting, along with Ms Malone, and I congratulate her on her new post. Having visited Kuwait city with her, I can attest to her professionalism and I am sure she will be well able to do her new job.

I also congratulate, as I did in the Seanad yesterday, the Minister of State, the Minister, Deputy Cowen, and the Taoiseach for their excellent work over the last six months and a very successful Presidency. I have been very proud to be Irish over the last six months. I congratulate you, Chairman, on your election to the European Parliament. We will miss you for the next couple of years and hope we will see you back here again afterwards. I also congratulate Ms Avril Doyle, MEP on her re-election.

As the points I wished to raise have already been raised by others, I will be brief. My first question is in regard to the Communicating Europe initiative. I would like a further outline of how and when that will happen. The EU Single Market now constitutes 25 member states. How can we reach out to the public at large in terms of movement of people, goods and services, access to employment, social security entitlements and all of that area? These are the real issues for the people we will be dealing with in the coming years. That will be the central goal in communicating what this constitution is all about.

I am a little alarmed that elections in Afghanistan are likely to be delayed because of the continuing attacks on military personnel. I ask the Minister of State to comment on this. He also said the international community should remain focused on how best to support Afghanistan. I would like to know how that works, particularly as we will have seven members of the Defence Forces there for a further period from July 2004. How do they work on the ground? What role do we and our representatives have?

I will not return to the Darfur question, unless the members wish to, but I should point out that the headline referring to goals from 2007 onwards is for three battle groups, comprising military units of approximately 1,500 strong which would be available to send into crisis areas outside Europe within 15 days. That does not kick in for some time, but in some preparation work I did for this meeting I noted most of the genocide in Rwanda in 1994 was carried out in the first three weeks, when over one million people were killed by armed groups.

The Darfur situation is very worrying and has been described as genocide. I am glad to hear that the Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, is travelling to the region and that the UN Secretary General has been there. Will the Minister of State to indicate how the General Affairs and External Relations Council might, in a significant way, move this issue on? We raised it with the Minister of State in our meeting before last, and I know he has been raising it, but it is an issue of major concern because the situation is very serious as it stands and is getting worse.

The way this committee interacts with the Executive is unique. It does not happen anywhere else in Europe. We frequently talk about the Scandinavian model or about what happens in Westminster or the French or German Parliaments, but the situation pertaining here is unique. It is one of the most extraordinary, unique and open arrangements in Europe. Members of the diplomatic corps here have told me that they find this an extraordinarily open and transparent process.

The committee was extremely helpful and played a vital role in the Presidency. It was both facilitative and workmanlike. I thank you, Chairman, and the committee members.

Deputy Mulcahy and Senators Dardis, Lydon and Ormonde all touched on the issue of Communicating Europe. Communicating Europe is the biggest challenge which the European Union faces. A gulf has grown between the European Union and the citizens of Europe. This was recognised in Laaken, and as a result of that we had the establishment of the Convention on the Future of Europe. One of the remits of the Convention was to draw up a constitutional treaty which would help to start bridging the gap. However, it has always been my view that work at the legal level alone will not bridge this gap. There must be much more engagement between the citizens of Europe, the institutions of the European Union and the Governments of Europe on issues relating to Europe. We learned that lesson very expensively in Ireland.

Years ago, wearing my academic hat, I produced some studies on the issue of citizen and state relations. I argued in those studies that one of the essential elements in governance was a close relationship between the citizen and the state. In other words, the state should not feel that it has the right to operate independently of the citizens' concerns and the citizens should feel that they have a role to play in the evolution, formulation and implementation of policy.

In the Communicating Europe initiative which we launched in April, those ideas which I had developed when I worked with the OECD were developed a step further and I sought to apply them to the European Union. The new written constitution is clear and unambiguous and shows who does what in a clear way. It emphasises things like conferral and subsidiarity, terms which are jargon themselves, but which people will get an understanding of. It makes clear that there is a role for national parliaments, for example, in order that we do not have steamroller effect coming from Europe.

All of that is proper, but there are other ways in which the European message must be communicated to citizens. Each and every day the lives of 450 million European are touched in some way by the actions of the European Union. For example, 51% of the citizens of this State had their lives completely changed by a judgment of the European Court of Justice in 1974, when equality of pay was seen as not just desirable but as a constitutional requirement.

We do not often recognise the positive impacts of Europe. There can also be negative impacts. I recall Senator Dardis and I slaving on a committee years ago over the excessive degree of pedantic application of regulation by the Department of Agriculture and Food. We argued that there should be an independent appeals mechanisms. Whether we are talking about the big issues — the way Europe pronounces its laws and the language people cannot understand — or about the low-level, interface issues where the citizen must deal with bureaucracy arising from Europe, we are concerned with the question of Communicating Europe.

In the document which I produced for the meeting in Kilcoole I pointed out that the Communicating Europe initiative happens at all levels. It happens even at the level of an application form. Most of us here are urban people with no experience of filling in a form for a headage payment, for example, or of losing virtually our entire salary because we make an honest error. That happens daily to farmers all over the country and throughout Europe. That is wrong.

I agree. Filling in such forms correctly is almost impossible.

I recall Ms Avril Doyle as an MEP admitting that she had omitted a digit. Ten digit numbers have to be filled in. The birthdays of animals have to be inserted. I have four children and I am stuck when trying to remember their birthdays. That level of bureaucracy and its mindless impact on people's lives is a challenge the European Union must address. We should have a form audit agency, expand the role of the European Ombudsman and extend the role of national parliaments. The issue of Communicating Europe is not just about press releases, about making the language easier to understand and about public relations. It is about having a citizen-orientated focus for everything we do in the European Union. If the Irish EU Presidency can leave that legacy behind it, we will have done some service to Europe.

One of the impacts we made in the course of our EU Presidency was that with the Dutch, Luxembourg and UK Presidencies we produced a document on better regulation. Before the European Union makes a new regulation it must ask if it is merely adding to the regulatory burden that falls on small and medium business. It must ask if a regulation is necessary, and whether, if it is adding a regulation to the statute book, it can remove two others. The European Union must ask if it can free the people from the chain of excessive bureaucracy and regulation. The Communicating Europe initiative extends much further and deeper than PR. It is about administrative reform and restructuring in the best sense. It is about looking at every level at which the European Union interfaces with the 450 million people who make up the European Union in its 25 member states. It is about ameliorating those relationships.

My French colleague points out that she is producing programmes to allow young people to better understand how they interface with Europe and impact on it, and to let them see the positive side. We have to do this. This issue arises next Monday in the margins of the General Affairs Council. There was a very generous recognition in the Dutch Presidency programme of the Communicating Europe initiative launched by the Irish Presidency.

Deputy Mulcahy spoke of his disappointment at the manner in which the events on the night of the major decision on the constitutional treaty were reported. We should recognise the positive side as well as the negative. One of the aspects which greatly facilitated the Irish Presidency was the extraordinary role played by the print media. I said this at the Kilcoole conference and more recently in the United Kingdom. I do not know how the European portfolio can be run in a country where there is always an incredibly hostile media. We have been extraordinarily fortunate, particularly with the broadsheets in this country. In particular I note the extraordinary role played by the Brussels-based correspondents, including Denis Staunton of The Irish Times, one of the most distinguished writers on European affairs in any newspaper in Europe. Conor Sweeney and Anne Cahill also do extraordinary work with limited resources. Their two colleagues, the RTE representatives in Brussels, also do a good job. It is sometimes a pity that more coverage is not given to EU affairs, but our major newspapers, the Irish Independent, The Irish Times in particular, and The Examiner have all done a good job. They were very helpful during the Irish Presidency. One of my colleagues told me he would like to see that sort of coverage in his country — insightful, knowledgeable, progressive coverage. He was reading The Irish Times on the day in question.

Deputy Mulcahy and Senator Lydon also asked about enlargement. They mentioned Bulgaria, Romania, Croatia and Turkey. Bulgaria has made remarkable progress and it was agreed during the Irish Presidency that formal opening talks would take place. Bulgaria has completed all the work it had to do in that regard. Extraordinary credit is due to the Bulgarian Government which has made a big effort. My colleague there, Ms Maglena Kuneva, has played an astonishing role for her country.

Romania is slightly behind, facing big challenges, but is working professionally through the various chapters. Croatia has made extraordinary efforts and is now a candidate. The big issue is the decision which will come later this year, regarding Turkey. We await a response on Turkey from the European Commission.

Regarding Turkey's application, the criteria for any country applying to join the European Union have been set down as a result of the European Council meeting at Copenhagen. Any country which objectively meets those criteria is entitled to apply. We all know that there have been incredible efforts in Turkey in recent times. The Turkish Government has done great work recently. We must wait for what the European Commission produces. The Irish position on Turkey has been that any country which meets the objective criteria is entitled to make an application and to progress. I do not know what will be the European Commission findings but decisions will be made during the Dutch Presidency and we will have them towards the end of the year. I anticipate that if the decision is to open negotiations, there will be a relatively long lead time.

Deputy Andrews raised an issue which he has discussed with me on several occasions, namely the UK rebate. This is one of the issues which will be considered in the overall context of the financial perspective. The Commission will be tabling its proposals on the financial perspectives next week and we must wait to see what they are. Ireland will examine them carefully. A timetable is involved and the proposals will be completed not during the Dutch Presidency but during the Luxembourg EU Presidency. The big political issues, including the one to which Deputy Andrews referred, will not come up for decision until next June, during the Luxembourg presidency, though if it strays beyond June it will be in the UK Presidency. It is difficult to speculate on that issue.

Deputy Andrews also asked about the International Criminal Court. Ireland has no intention of signing a bilateral agreement on the court. The European Union has a very strong position on the universalisation of the court, as do we. The Union has opposed the signing of bilateral agreements, exempting any country from the operations of the court. The International Criminal Court is just what it purports to be. It is not a court which applies only to some nations.

Deputy Carey noted a number of issues. He pointed to the feed-in to the European Parliament of euroscepticism. He also mentioned the Irish Presidency. It is worth reminding ourselves that one fifth of all the EU legislation that passed through the European Parliament did so during the three and a half months the Parliament operated during the Irish Presidency. In October 2002, long before the Irish Presidency and just after the referendum, I went with officials from the Department of Foreign Affairs to Strasbourg for two days to meet the leaders of the various groups and the presidents of the committees of the European Parliament. We indicated to the Parliament that we would work very hard with it to ensure that the Parliament got through its full legislative programme. We began our preparatory work with the Parliament more than a year before the Irish Presidency began. The idea was to dovetail our attendance in the Parliament and work in the various Councils with the timetable of the Parliament, and it worked marvellously. We established a quite remarkable relationship with the Parliament, based on my view that the Parliament is an elected reflection of the will of the people of Europe and that any Government holding the Presidency must give it due respect.

I am not sure that this has always been the case in all Presidencies but it was certainly the bedrock on which we built a very good relationship with the European Parliament. We respected the Parliament, talked to it about its timetable and got it to understand our timetable as well. We worked very closely with the committees in the Parliament. The Chairman will see shortly himself that the committee system in the Parliament is the key to success, particularly on the legislative side.

Deputy Carey also mentioned the World Trade Organisation. I said that progress was disappointing, but to be positive, I suppose there have been some more recent signs of positive progress. Rather than being pessimistic I should describe myself as being cautiously but very carefully optimistic. I am certainly not overly pessimistic but a great deal of work must be done in this area.

Deputy Carey and Senator Ormonde also mentioned Afghanistan. I was listening to President Karzai in Istanbul last week and he was very concerned about the atmosphere in which the elections are taking place. He appealed last week to the members of NATO for assistance, support and men and women on the ground to ensure that democracy can take its course in Afghanistan. They have done remarkable work in the job of creating electoral rolls or registers, something our county council registrars might take note of, in difficult circumstances.

I recall from President Karzai's presentation that 35% of the voters registered are women. In a country where women were until very recently forced out of education, forced to wear the veil, forced to be obscure and forced to be non-persons, so to speak, by the Taliban regime, that is a remarkable achievement. We wish the authorities in Afghanistan well. The democratisation process will not be easy to deliver.

Deputy Carey also asked about the issue of drugs, particularly the transfer back into heroin growing and the reopening of the poppy fields. This again was something President Karzai touched on. He touched on the necessity of the international community becoming involved in the type of more normal trade relationships with Afghanistan and investment in Afghanistan to help them break the cycle. The European Union and the United States are working together on putting resources into preventing drug cultivation and export from Afghanistan. Unfortunately, and Deputy Carey is right on this, there has been little improvement on the ground and it is unlikely that there will be until there is more political stability and the stranglehold of the warlords in particular is broken.

A number of people mentioned Burma, in particular Deputy Carey. Ireland, like most states, recognises states, not governments. The regime in Burma is a major part of the problem, but if we are to make progress with Burma, it will be on the basis of engagement and not through isolation. One could say that this contradicts our stance on ASEM, but with ASEM we are simply not prepared to have the type of stand-off whereby we let their ten in if they let our three in, or whatever. We are not prepared to engage in that while Aung San Suu Kyi is still under house arrest, her political party is excluded from the democratic process and there is confusion as to whether its national congress will proceed.

We considered the situation carefully before nominating and appointing our ambassador from Malaysia to there. Before our ambassador presented credentials in Burma he travelled to the country and paid a private visit to Aung San Suu Kyi. The forces for democracy in Burma are very aware of our position. In addition to the meetings held at ministerial level, I also met Ismael Razali in Kuala Lumpur earlier this year to discuss the issue of Aung San Suu Kyi. It is also worth reminding ourselves that Seanad Éireann was the first House of Parliament in Europe to enact a resolution on her imprisonment.

On Darfur, the European Union is co-operating closely with the United States, the United Nations and the African Union. The United States is doing very good work in Darfur which is not recognised often enough. Irish officials will participate in the African Union monitoring mission. I have mentioned that the Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, will visit the region, which is probably the best way of seeing what is happening there.

We do know that the famine in Darfur has been the product of politics and civil war rather than a natural famine. The African Union itself is sending 300 troops to Darfur to provide security for food distribution. The African Union does not believe that the situation qualifies as a genocide, which may come as a surprise to many because the word "genocide" has certainly been used in that context.

Serious pressure is being put on the Sudanese Government which is acting in contradiction to all international standards and to the rights and well-being of its own people. The UN Security Council is on standby to act if Khartoum does not meet commitments under an agreement reached last week with the United Nations Secretary General. The European Union is accelerating disbursement of funds and Ireland has given in excess of €3.5 million which, pro rata, is way ahead of others. As I said, the Minister of State is going to the area to see how best we can assist. The European Union and Ireland have played a good role there. One of our Presidency objectives was to raise African issues, including this one, on the agenda.

A number of questions were asked about the European Defence Agency and how participation might be consistent with our position. Participation is on a voluntary basis. Nonetheless, we see that an involvement and interest in the agency is consistent with our desire to remain a core member of the European Union. Membership of the agency will allow Ireland, through its own choice, to participate in projects on a case-by-case basis. There is no requirement or imposition on us. The Chairman has made the point in a common sense way in many contributions in the House that we can choose to go in or stay out. We do so where it is seen to be in the interests of the effective and efficient equipping of the Defence Forces.

It should be remembered what the agency is concerned with. It is about creating efficiency, effectiveness and interoperability. As I said in a debate in the House some time back, if one is going to have an army and equip it, one had better ensure that there is interoperability with equipment. There is no point in us standing on principle and committing our men and women to some dangerous position where they cannot establish radio contact with another force in the next valley because there is not interoperability between radio equipment. People must adopt a common sense attitude towards this.

Our focus, in terms of the agency, will be on the issue of interoperability, particularly where we are committing our troops to peacekeeping missions. The agency's mission itself is to help build the Union's capabilities in the field of crisis management and to assist the development of the Union's security and defence policy. It is not in any sense, as it was portrayed last week in the Forum on Europe, to the discredit of one of the non-governmental organisations, trying to equip Europe with a nuclear capacity. That is a nonsensical proposition. The agency also ends with the rationalisation and increased efficiency of supply which is intended to enhance co-operation and strengthen the European defence industry in its research base, something in which we are not involved. Each member state will participate in the various activities on a case by case basis, as I said, and projects will be funded only by those countries participating. Once again, the suggestion that somehow or other our tax money will be siphoned off into something that we do not support is a nonsense.

I have Deputy Kirk and Ms Avril Doyle, MEP, offering. However, I would like to raise one issue with the Minister of State. I have received correspondence from an organisation called Focus on Romania which raised some disturbing issues regarding the situation of orphanages there. It says the institutions are more like prisons than orphanages and that innocent victims of the remnants of a cruel dictatorship continue to live and die in appalling conditions. The letter is very strong. It says, for example, that, in recent days, the group's members have seen young handicapped people starved, covered in flies, and sleeping in urine soaked beds in filthy conditions. Many of them will die long before their conditions are improved by the European Union working with Romania.

I do not know what the Minister of State knows about those allegations. I believe that they have been raised. They are serious, particularly given that Romania is an applicant state. As a matter of some urgency, perhaps the Minister of State might investigate the matter and send a report to the committee. I do not expect him to be able to respond on the spot. I would appreciate it if he could do that.

I would be delighted to do so. Perhaps the Chairman might send me the correspondence and I will respond to the committee and to him personally.

I thank the Minister of State.

I join colleagues in congratulating the Minister of State, Deputy Roche, the Taoiseach, and all those involved in the Presidency, including the officials, on the tremendous job that they have done. I also congratulate Ms Avril Doyle on her election to the European Parliament.

I will not dwell on these issues. The first is that raised in the correspondence mentioned by the Chairman regarding the standard of facilities and care of children in Romania. In my experience of dealing with constituency problems, I found that there was great sensitivity at ambassadorial level regarding this issue. Having regard to the fact that Romania is an applicant state, this area needs addressing, or at least some clarification. We must see exactly where the balance of truth lies in that regard.

My second point concerns the nuclear industry within the European Union, its significance and importance. It goes without saying that, here in Ireland, because of the proximity of Sellafield, we have an ongoing concern about terrorist attacks or accidents taking place. It has profound implications for people living along the east coast of Ireland and perhaps further afield. On closer examination we find that, in various countries throughout Europe, the nuclear industry is an established part of the economic structure. I do not expect the Minister of State to provide a direct answer today, but perhaps he could identify it as an issue to be addressed, particularly because of its relevance to Ireland and its wider relevance from a safety point of view in other member states.

Another point is the Common Agricultural Policy. As we know, the mid-term review has now been completed. We have the single farm payment, and beyond that we are looking at the budgetary provision for the industry up to 2007. With some preliminary proposals produced, it appears that the initial figures mean that there will be a significant inadequacy in later years, with profound implications for the economic stability and well-being of agriculture as an industry in Ireland and in Europe as a whole.

The nitrates directive was very much top of the agenda during the recent European election campaign. It is not off the agenda yet by any means. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, if it has not submitted its proposals regarding the nitrates directive threshold, should have done so by the beginning of the month. The sorts of thresholds that the Union seems to be demanding would have profound implications for many of the intensive farms in the country. It is fine to say that we can follow it up with a derogation application, but if the 170kg. threshold is settled upon, it will have profound implications for many farms that find themselves landlocked and not in a position to expand except by more intensive production of grass through the use of nitrates.

Another issue that surfaced during the election campaign was over-regulation. There is no doubt that Union membership and the general Europeanisation of our economy have led to significantly increased regulation. I do not suggest that we do not need regulation in certain areas. However, when it becomes an overbearing and overarching element of our day-to-day economic activity, we need to stand back and ask whether we need all that regulation and all the inspections and whether we could not devise and develop a system less dependent on regulation and more dependent on the general co-operation and positive attitude of those participating in different areas of the economy.

Those were the points that I wished to mention. I do not want to hold up the meeting, since time is passing.

Ms Avril Doyle, MEP

I join in the welcome and congratulations to the Minister of State, Deputy Roche. Perhaps I might extend it to the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, the Taoiseach, and all involved, particularly our permanent representatives and the public servants who worked on an extremely good Irish Presidency, which has been recognised by people such as Mr. Javier Solana and President Jacques Chirac. They have acknowledged the efficiency and competence of the Irish Presidency at a political and public service level. It did not start on 1 January. People behind the scenes had been at it for a long time before, and I am sure that the Minister of State, Deputy Roche, will agree if I say a particular word of thanks for showcasing Ireland and Irish public administration and the excellent way in which it acted over the last six months. Many colleagues have made those comments to me since I returned following the European election.

Before us today is a report on the Council meeting on 14 June, when the political agreement was reached on a European Defence Agency. The Minister of State covered that in his replies. I would like to know precisely whether there will be any Irish involvement in the executive or staffing of the agency. I know that we would be involved in a call-up situation if the Dáil and Government agreed to it under the triple lock system. However, are we involved in the running of the agency?

I ask this specifically, since we have had officers out there from our Defence Forces under the Partnership for Peace, working and planning, who have done an extremely good job in Brussels for some years. I believe that they are due home in September. They also complemented the Irish Presidency. I acknowledge the work that those officers from our Defence Forces have done there. They have a body of knowledge, experience and expertise now that I would hate to think could not be used. Even though we will maintain our normal situation regarding military commitments, we have an extremely good, able and experienced body of officers in the Defence Forces whom I would like to see contributing. Is that the plan?

I returned from the Continent only last night. In complimenting the Minister and Government on the Presidency of the last six months, another issue came to my attention this week, namely, that my former party leader and our former Taoiseach, Deputy John Bruton, is still a live contender for the EU ambassadorship in Washington. Will the Taoiseach support that if and when it is brought to his attention? The main success of the Irish Presidency, the signing of the constitutional treaty, on which I compliment the Minister of State, was born out of the work done in the Convention on the Future of Europe. The Minister of State will agree that Deputy John Bruton's commitment, love and knowledge of matters European, particularly his input into the Convention on behalf of everybody present at this committee, was second to none. He is extremely well qualified for that job. I would be pleased if the Minister of State could indicate that, if the case arrives on the Taoiseach's table, the Government will be fully supportive of this.

On Communicating Europe, those of us who have just been through the European election will be aware of how few, even party members, understand what happens in European institutions, how they relate to national legislation and national government, and how member states relate back to the European institutions. One of the main aims in terms of the proper communication of Europe was to free people from excessive bureaucracy and regulation. The Minister of State mentioned the audit on form filling. This was promised through the committee of which the Minister of State was Chair and, at one stage, I was Vice-Chair. He should inform the committee of any change in the situation regarding form filling but I have seen no improvement, particularly regarding agricultural forms to which Senator Dardis referred. While I fill in the wretched things, even as a graduate I do not have faith in myself to do it correctly and must call up my Teagasc adviser. Is it any wonder farmers make genuine mistakes in filling in the forms? They are appalling and a matter of serious concern.

Farmers and small to medium-sized enterprises feel they are crippled with bureaucracy and regulation. Some of it is necessary because the commercial rules of the game must be the same for all states in the Single Market from which we have benefited enormously. However, much of the problem is associated with self-assessment of taxation, which has come in parallel with our increased involvement in the Single Market. If there is good news from Europe, governments take credit for it whereas if there is bad news, they blame Europe. At this stage, nobody knows who is responsible for what. It is to be hoped that the treaty will divide the competencies between member state ones and European ones and, eventually, people will understand.

I ask for support for one measure which is obviously necessary. Having spent five years in Europe and many hours drawing up and issuing press releases for the local media, I know there is no appetite among local newspapers and radio, and some of the broadsheets, for matters European or events in Strasbourg when MEPs sign off monthly on critical matters for this country and its citizens. "Oireachtas Report" has served the people of Ireland well. Whether the people like it, the proceedings of the Dáil and Seanad are on television after each sitting day. Even if only 5% of our people are interested in the detail, they have a means of finding out what is being done and said by Deputies, Senators and Ministers. There is not the same service from public service broadcasting in terms of delivering to the people what their MEPs and various others are doing.

This committee should take an interest in having an equivalent report on Strasbourg and the contributions of Irish MEPs. It would only have to be monthly because Strasbourg only meets once a month to deal with legislation. From a public service broadcasting perspective, it is a service our citizens deserve. I am amazed by the number of people who watch "Oireachtas Report" and the number of times it is commented on. I ask for a Strasbourg report through our public sector media. While I accept European issues do not increase audiences for local radio and newspapers, those who want to are entitled to know about these issues.

Is the Minister of State happy that the Fianna Fáil MEPs have returned to the bosom of the Union for a Europe of Nations, UEN, grouping? Is this an effective group in terms of delivering for Ireland? It is an interesting point. There are only 13 Irish MEPs and we have an extra burden of duty to deliver because there are so few of us. One can only be effective through an effective political grouping and I would like to hear the Minister of State's views as to whether the UEN is an effective channel through which Fianna Fáil can deliver.

In all impartiality, the Chair will have to rule that the question is not permissible.

Ms Doyle, MEP

The Minister of State will not mind answering. The year 2004 is the European Year of Sport. What will the Government do to recognise this in the second half of the year? What will we do to showcase the year of sport?

We will issue another stamp.

Ms Doyle, MEP

Let us not go there. I will leave the issue of Turkey for another day.

Those are interesting questions. To answer Deputy Kirk, during the Convention on the Future of Europe and the preparatory work for the Intergovernmental Conference, there was much discussion of the EURATOM Treaty. I am not sure whether Deputy Kirk had in mind commentary which came from the United Kingdom yesterday and which is now in circulation in some of the European media, namely, that regarding the expanding of nuclear energy programmes in the United Kingdom, which I hope is not the case. There was concern at the Convention on the Future of Europe that issues relating to the EURATOM Treaty should be reopened. I remember discussing this with my constituency colleague, Ms Nuala Ahern, and my views on it are well known. I would like the EURATOM Treaty re-examined. If it is to continue, I would like it to have a more meaningful role in the inspection of nuclear energy installations, particularly in our nearest neighbour.

When issues go to the IGC, they must be decided on the basis of unanimity. It was not possible to achieve unanimity on the matter of the EURATOM Treaty. A number of the countries involved have significant nuclear industries which are important in the political context of those countries. That being the case, the support for the view we held was not there. However, Ireland, together with Germany and Austria, signed a declaration, which is attached to the constitutional treaty, noting that the provisions of the EURATOM Treaty need to be brought up-to-date and calling for a review conference to be convened as soon as possible. In the circumstances, this was the best that could be achieved.

On the Common Agricultural Policy, the overall budget envelope has been agreed with the current arrangements to obtain up to 2013, which is a significant success for the member states actively proposing the interests of a continued CAP. It is the only area of common policy on which the funding has been agreed for such a lengthy period and ring-fenced. Notwithstanding what happens in the European Parliament, for example, where issues relating to CAP arise occasionally because the approximately 730 members have the right to raise issues, the funding is ring-fenced and the issue closed. We have reached a position where the funding is protected. The mid-term review is expected and, it is hoped, will lead to further reductions in bureaucracy.

I agree with the comments of Ms Doyle. However, she should remember that she and I had some success in this regard. We brought some senior officials from the Directorate General on agriculture to Ireland and were able to prove to our satisfaction and that of the Oireachtas and the Minister that the advice which had come from the Department for a generation, that it was not possible to have an independent appeals mechanism, was invalid. As a result, a mechanism has been put in place. Whether it is efficient is an issue that must be adjudicated upon following further experience of its operation.

Ms Doyle, MEP

Are the forms still the same?

Yes. I agree with Ms Doyle in this regard. One of the issues discussed in the Oireachtas was whether regulation bears equally on all citizens throughout the European Union. Scottish fishermen will not be persuaded that they should have the same level of imposition or inspection as, for example, their continental counterparts.

I thank Ms Doyle for what she had to say about Irish public servants, two of whom are here with me, Mr. David Cooney, who did extraordinary work on the political side, and Mr. Bobby McDonagh, who is regarded as the man who held the biro at the most important times in the negotiations on the constitutional treaty. I should also mention Mr. Rory Montgomery and Ms Helen Blake, the most extraordinary drafters I have ever met, and Ms Anne Anderson, the ambassador, played an extraordinary role.

We will be a member of the EU Defence Agency and involved in the steering board. We will get involved in matters on a case by case basis and we would hope that the quality of Irish public servants would be recognised when staff are being selected. It would be good to have people working there.

The question was mischievously asked about an EU representative in Washington. Other Irish names have also been mentioned.

Ms Doyle, MEP

Does the Minister of State have anything he wishes to share with us?

Ms Doyle, MEP

Any redundant MEPs?

I was thinking about closer to home. It was the Irish Presidency idea that an experienced political figure should go to Washington. The idea that people with political experience at the end of their careers have no further role to play in public life is a nonsense. Washington is the most quintessentially political place on earth and it would be a good idea if a political figure represented the European Union there. If it was an Irish person, it would raise consciousness in the Irish-American community and that would be a positive development. The decision will rest with the Commission itself and the incoming President will make the final decision. The Irish name that has come up was mentioned by a member of Fine Gael's political family who was on the outgoing Commission.

Ms Doyle is wrong about local radio. It has a great interest in European affairs. Ellen Lynch does a great programme on which I have heard Ms Doyle more than once. I agree, however, about "Oireachtas Report" and I always refer to the colourful description Deputy Rabbitte gave that it is for insomniacs and alcoholics. It is much too short and aired much too late at night. Irish people are interested in political life and I refer the powers that be in RTE to the superb coverage elsewhere. The European Parliament also needs greater coverage.

I said that €3.5 million was the total contribution to Darfur and Sudan. The Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Kitt, will be announcing a further €1 million for UNICEF, Oxfam and GOAL next week, bringing Ireland's contribution to €2.9 million, but our contribution in the latest package for the entire region is €3.75 million, although not all of that is going to Darfur and Sudan.

I thank the Minister of State. That concludes this part of the meeting.

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