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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 3 Nov 2004

Institute of European Affairs: Presentation.

I should preface my remarks by saying the Institute of European Affairs is in the happy position of not having to take policy decisions or even recommend policy decisions on such a difficult question as Turkish membership of the European Union. With our limited resources we are putting together information, facts, opinions and attitudes on the subject which we think will be of help in encouraging an informed debate and of interest to our members, researchers and opinion formers. We will continue this work in the next month or so with seminars and round table discussions with a view to completing our information on the subject. We do not pretend we know everything there is to know about it. I sent a preliminary note which I hope committee members have received and on which I will base what I have to say, elaborating as I go along.

A somewhat heated debate is taking place in several member states of the European Union in the run-up to the meeting of the European Council on 17 December when, as Deputy Haughey said, a decision is expected on an opening date for negotiations. It is expected a decision will be taken one way or the other. The debate is heated, notably in France and Germany. While governments are generally in favour of a positive decision being made on 17 December, or at least not a negative one, it seems clear public opinion is more negative in several member states.

The debate is taking place against the background of the recent enlargement from 15 to 25 member states which reawakened many questions about the future of the European Union, where it is going and what it is about. Some of the questions are: if the European Union of 25 member states will settle down and work effectively with or without a European constitution. Now that the Union is about to expand to the shores of the Black Sea and into the Balkans, what are its proper limits? Can it keep on expanding indefinitely? How is it to handle relations with its new neighbours in the east and to the south which are sometimes unstable? What about the security of the Union; its political role in the world; its relations, for example, with the United States, China and other countries? Most importantly, questions arise about whether the rich member states will continue to put in money to pay for the economic and social integration of the poorer regions. In an extended European Union of 27 to 29 member states, there is also the question of whether there would be new core groupings. Would there be new alliances within the Union and would the euro group be strong enough to maintain a role as the essential core? These general and important questions arise in the debate as well as issues specific to Turkey, to which we will come.

Some member states strongly support the opening of negotiations, notably the United Kingdom. This immediately gives rise to questions in other member states about its motives. Importantly, Greece is in favour, at least for the moment. Cyprus which faces real problems is hesitant but apparently not expected to oppose at this stage. We await further developments. France and Germany are seriously split to a considerable extent at party level for internal political reasons, but their leaders are in favour. President Chirac has backed calls for a referendum if and when there is a draft accession treaty. This is not widely seen as a good idea but one perhaps which is gathering strength.

I have included in the preliminary sheet a few important statistics and facts about Turkey. Population is an important consideration. Turkey's population is growing while the populations of most developed European countries are set for decline. Turkey's population will equal that of Germany, about 82 million, in 2015 and is expected to reach 98 million in 2050 by which date the population of Germany will have declined to about 80 million. It is calculated that at that time Turkey will account for about 18% of the population of the European Union. In 2015 it will account for about 14.5%.

Turkey is very big; at 800,000 km2, it is more than ten times the size of Ireland. As it is only one and a half times the size of France, perhaps we should not exaggerate. Most of the country is underdeveloped. Some 3% of its land area is in Europe while 97% lies east of the Bosphorus in Asia. The official guidebook to Turkey describes it as a Eurasian country. At €6,256, GDP is low, about 28% of the EU average of €22,300. It is about the same as that for several of the recent accession countries, including Latvia.

Turkey's constitution is based on Ataturk's. It states the Republic of Turkey is a democratic, secular and social state governed by the supremacy of law, respecting human rights and committed to the nationalism of Ataturk. When the European Council decided in December 1999 to recognise Turkey as a candidate for accession, it was able to say it was considered to have the basic features of a democratic system but with serious shortcomings in terms of human rights and the protection of minorities. The constitution in its present form dates from 1982, although it has been amended substantially on several occasions to introduce important reforms. Civil rights organisations accept that this is the case but some maintain that proper reform of Turkish legislation should ideally have started with a complete overhaul of the constitution or even with a completely new constitution. They maintain that the current constitution still shows signs of its imposition under threat of a military regime and lacks legitimacy for this reason. Nevertheless, there is no doubt that considerable progress has been made in regard, for example, to fundamental constitutional rights and freedoms, the abolition of the death penalty, the independence of the judiciary, more civilian control over the military, a clampdown on police torture and so on.

I have set out briefly in my preliminary paper the history of Turkey's relations with the European Communities and the European Union. I should add a reminder of the basic qualifications for membership. First, membership is open only to European countries which respect the values of the Union. In addition, the so-called Copenhagen criteria apply, the first of which, the political criteria, requires that an acceding country has stable institutions guaranteeing the rule of law, respect for human rights and the protection of minorities. The second, the economic criteria, requires the acceding country to have a functioning market economy, the capacity to deal with competition within the Single Market and the ability to implement the European Union's rules and regulations, namely, the acquis. A further important consideration which is often overlooked is the ability to absorb a new member state, while maintaining the Union’s achievements and the ability to maintain the momentum of European integration.

With regard to arguments for and against opening negotiations with Turkey, there appears to be a counter-argument for every argument in favour. We will examine the issues of geography and religion together since they are at the heart of the debate about the effect Turkish membership would have on the future of the European Union, although I will not go into too much detail.

Many take the view that the argument that Turkey is ineligible for membership because it is not really a European country has long been conceded. The European Economic Community, as the European Union was known, accepted in its association agreement in the 1960s that Turkey had a vocation for membership. It has repeated this statement on many subsequent occasions. It is argued, therefore, that we should keep our word. To use the Latin phrase, pacta servanda sunt.

Not everybody accepts this view. Across a wide political spectrum in several member states the case is made that the European Union cannot expand indefinitely, particularly to non-European countries. For example, if Turkey is eligible, we cannot say no to Ukraine. Where do we stop? If it continues to grow, the Union will lose its identity as a political project and an original social model and become a mere common market or free trade area. According to the proponents of these arguments, the Union should tell Turkey that much has changed since the 1960s, that we cannot maintain the idea of membership which was never a legal commitment and that we should offer a less privileged relationship, to be defined, offering advantages to both sides.

There are also reservations at grassroots level, although reliable opinion poll findings are scarce. These relate to what reports describe as "cultural differences", an expression which clearly includes the religious dimension. The idea of European identity which is difficult to define also features in the background. While there is no great enthusiasm in political circles in Europe to work on identifying this identity, a good deal of it is to be assumed from the content of the constitutional treaty.

It is probably significant that scepticism about Turkish membership is strongest in countries such as Germany, France, the Netherlands, Austria, and Denmark which have large Turkish minorities and that it is increased by fears related to the country's size, poverty rate and population. However, many of the organisations which report and discuss these reservations regarding this aspect of the argument favour an accession date being given. The positive arguments they cite are: good faith, that is, as I said, the fact that we have given our word; the prospects for economic and social improvements in Turkey over a long period of negotiations and preparation for membership; the experience of previous enlargements which has been positive; opposition to the idea of Europe as a Christian club; the moderate nature of Turkish religious observance about which we must all learn more and study; the secular nature of the Turkish state; Turkish acceptance of European values and its efforts over a long period to move towards Europe.

As regards arguments about Turkey's large and growing population, economists point to the contribution young immigrants can make to the ageing problem in more advanced European countries. Germany already spends more than 10% of its gross domestic product on pensions, with the figure expected to rise to 15.5% by 2040. When the number of workers per retired person drops from 2.6 to 1.4, we may be glad to have young immigrants. On the other hand, the man on the street, as we have noted, may be more worried about what he regards as floods of immigrants and the cultural and other problems this may bring. Questions are also raised about a poor country such as Turkey having the same weight in European institutions as Germany, an issue which also requires study and discussion.

Economically, while Turkish GDP per capita is less than one third of the EU average, it is growing rapidly. The OECD recently cited three problems in this regard, namely, the question of political and economic stability, corruption and the size of the black economy. The Turkish Prime Minister has responded by stating the government is extremely stable and cites in support of this contention that the country has received investment valued at €20 billion in the past six months; that inflation has fallen from 34% to under 10% in two years; that GDP is expected to grow by 10% this year — I saw a figure of 13% quoted recently in the The Economist; and that new laws have been adopted to deal with corruption and the black market. Much progress is related to the prospect of movement towards membership of the European Union.

The role of the military has been one of the major factors contributing to the view that Turkey has not been fully democratic. The military's role has traditionally been viewed as one of acting as the guardian of the ideology of Ataturk, for example, the principle of the unitary state - vis-à-vis the Kurds, for instance — and the state’s secular nature. The military has been widely respected by the people at large as a stabilising and incorrupt element. In the recent past it has intervened to assume control. Its powers have been reduced by recent reforms, for example, with respect to control of the national security council and parliamentary control of the military budget. Nevertheless, human rights organisations point out that it still intervenes in public affairs in ways which would not be tolerated in a western democracy, for instance, on education, the place of religion in society and more obvious issues such as separatism, that is, the position of the Kurdish minority.

A great deal of material is available on human rights in general, most recently in the conclusions of the European Commission's annual report. In previous reports, while Turkey was considered to have the basic features of a democratic society, it was found to display serious shortcomings in terms of human rights and the protection of minorities. More recently, in 2002 and this year, two major constitutional reforms were introduced and eight legislative packages adopted by parliament. Major steps have been taken to achieve better implementation of the reforms which, as noted, include greater cultural, language and educational autonomy for minorities — again, in this case, the Kurds — the abolition of the death penalty, judicial reforms, the release of political prisoners, measures against torture in police stations and greater freedom of expression. However, it is accepted by everybody, including the Turkish Government, that the reforms have not gone far enough and that implementation is inadequate.

As one human rights observer put it, the philosophy of further necessary legislative reforms must be to move away from laws, the primary objective of which is to control and restrict the exercise of fundamental freedoms, to a position in which human rights are seen as desirable, normal and necessary. This observer, like others, finds that practical implementation is the main problem. He notes that every day there are cases which demonstrate that the police, prosecutors, judges and other public servants either do not understand or are not willing to comply with the legislative reforms and human rights standards accepted by the government. In spite of such criticism, human rights activists are among the strongest supporters of movement towards Turkish accession. A particular human rights activist says the prospect of Turkish membership of the European Union presents the best opportunity Turkey has ever had of becoming a real democracy with full respect for human rights and the rule of law based on European values.

Another of the arguments tossed about by those both for and against Turkish membership concerns regional conflicts. Among the aims European integration is designed to achieve is the mending of fences between old enemies. We have seen the effect of the prospect of EU membership on relations between Turkey and Greece on the issue of Cyprus. The Ahtaari commission — I am sure the committee has received copies of the recent report — points to the great emphasis being placed on the southern borders of the European Union in the context of security and the need to ensure stability in the areas involved. According to the commission, Turkey would add a new dimension to the Union's foreign policy efforts in vital regions such as the Middle East, the Mediterranean, central Asia and the Caucasus and have important practical effects on energy supply. There is a counter argument — why we want to bother to get involved in these areas and perhaps create a great deal of trouble for ourselves. The commission refutes this argument on the grounds that it would be better to have Turkey within the European camp than outside.

The Commission's conclusions and recommendations are fully summarised in my preliminary note. While they are generally positive, there are important qualifications and conditions. While the Commission accepts that substantial progress has been made in constitutional and legislative reform, it contends further action is necessary. According to it, while Turkey has not completely met the political criteria, it has done so to a sufficient extent to allow the European Union to open negotiations. The condition was added that the opening of negotiations should require the bringing into force by Turkey of outstanding legislation listed in paragraph 1 of the Commission's report which also makes clear that the irreversibility of the reform process must be confirmed over time.

The Commission outlines a three pillar strategy in which co-operation is offered to support reform while indicating progress should be monitored and negotiations suspended where there is evidence of back sliding. The concerns of some member states are addressed through the reminder that unanimity will apply at all stages of the negotiations. Any member state can stop the process. There will also be close monitoring of movement towards the adoption of acquis communautaire and the implementation of legislation. It is made clear that the outcome of negotiations is uncertain and long transitional arrangements and permanent safeguards can be put in place, although these are unusual. The reference relates to the free movement of persons. The report recommends that the financial perspective for the period from 2014 should be defined before negotiations are concluded. This is a clear pointer to a negotiating period of ten to 15 years. I count four references in the report to the condition to which I referred that Turkey’s accession will depend on the capacity of the European Union to absorb a new member.

Between now and 17 December further action is expected on the part of Turkey on specific legislative reforms as listed in paragraph 1. It is also expected to make a move on the recognition of Cyprus. Failure in this regard might understandably lead to difficulties. Governments will make up their minds on the Commission's recommendations and in the event of a positive decision which most observers regard as probable though not certain will have to decide what is meant by the "opening of negotiations without delay" as outlined in their original decision.

I thank Mr. O'Rourke for his interesting, fair-minded and dispassionate analysis. I also thank Deputy Haughey for raising this timely issue, given the recent Commission decision and the forthcoming meeting of the European Council.

I am in favour of the opening of Turkish accession negotiations. Once one is a democrat it does not matter what one's religion is. Being Islamic does not preclude a person from gaining full citizenship of the European Union. Many of the major member states already have significant Muslim populations with Germany, France and Britain coming to mind. Nobody is suggesting that the Islamic citizens of these states are somehow lesser EU citizens than the Christians or those who belong to no religion. The cultural gap between Turkey with its almost 100% Muslim population and the rest of Europe does not constitute a valid argument against negotiating accession.

To turn to the Cyprus question, when Ireland became a member state in 1973, it had a real and significant dispute with the United Kingdom. There were serious human rights abuses on both sides, especially on the part of the British. Naturally, the dispute did not prevent either country from becoming a member state, from which time the European Union has had a very positive effect on the problem. We are at the negotiating table and the British and Irish Governments have often met for bilateral meetings on the margins of wider EU discussions. There are enough sensible people on either side of the dispute between Turkey and Cyprus who would be brought together by membership of the European Union and provide a dynamic to resolve the issue more quickly than would otherwise be the case.

The attitude to Turkey generally is patronising. Turkey has been a member of NATO since its establishment and entrusted with the military protection of western Europe for a long time. It is ironic that so many member states and individuals argue that Turkey is too politically immature to be involved in the institutions of the European Union when the country is considered mature enough to carry weapons and everything else that goes with NATO membership. Since 11 September 2001 Europe's relations with the Middle East and the Islamic world in general have required serious doctoring. Among the best ways to proceed is to accept Turkey's membership application on its merits as that of a democratic and secular state. The Turkish people are democrats first and foremost. They are also Muslims. If we open negotiations with Turkey, we will go a long way towards improving relations.

Ignorance and prejudice are sometimes displayed when people express their fears about Turkey joining the European Union. We should not forget that many were concerned about East Germany joining the Union when the reunification of Germany took place in 1990. It was claimed that immigrants would pour into the rest of the Union. Popular hostility to immigrants has been a constant theme during every enlargement of the Union, but such fears have never been demonstrated to have been reasonable.

Mr. O'Rourke referred to outstanding legislation. It is important that people should remember that outstanding legislation cannot be considered when assessing whether an applicant country meets the criteria for membership. Only the legislation in force can be considered during that process. As Mr. O'Rourke said, a large body of outstanding legislation which may be said to be in the wings is not in force at this stage but soon will be. While Turkey's application has been considered in its entirety, a new wave of legislation has yet to be introduced. It will come closer to fulfilling the criteria when it has been enacted.

Does Mr. O'Rourke agree with Deputy Andrews that the attitude to Turkey has been patronising?

He may have a point. Irish people are inclined to consider the European Union and NATO separately. We have not discussed the NATO role of Turkey which was the southern bastion of Europe during the Cold War and which played a huge role in that regard.

I was asked whether Turkey was democratic. I do not know whether there is a clear line between the role of Turkey which I have mentioned and what we regard as democratic values. The Turkish elite is certainly acceptable in the European debate, but that does not detract from the need for the gaps in the Turkish system to be filled before Europe is satisfied that Turkey accepts all European values.

I thank Mr. O'Rourke for his timely contribution. As a new member of the committee, this issue could have a divisive effect on the European Union in the next ten years. I am approaching the matter with a clean slate — I am prepared to listen, learn and consider the views of those on both sides of the debate. Mr. O'Rourke has outlined the arguments for and against Turkey's accession to the European Union in a fair manner which will provoke some thought among members of the committee.

I have serious doubts and concerns about the European Union's capacity to absorb further members until the countries which joined during the recent accession have been bedded down. Deputy Andrews spoke about the reunification of Germany which had a hugely disruptive effect on the German economy. We are waiting to see how successfully the European Union will absorb the new member states and how it will develop with 25 member states. Turkey has applied to join the Union and it is inevitable that applications will be received from Ukraine and other countries in that region. I do not know whether the Union is moving too quickly.

What timescale does Mr. O'Rourke think would be appropriate from the opening of negotiations with Turkey, possibly next year, to full accession? I do not allow religion to enter the equation when I consider an issue. I do not agree that Turkey's membership of NATO should compromise our attitude on this matter because it is outside the influence and control of Ireland.

After the United States had invaded Iraq, there were concerns Turkey would invade northern areas of Iraq to protects its interests there. I am concerned about this matter which I will raise with the Turkish authorities when I get an opportunity to do so. Some of my friends from that part of the world were terrified by the prospect of an invasion from Turkey and its implications for human rights. The major questions about Turkey's respect for international borders have to be answered. Is Mr. O'Rourke satisfied it respects such borders? Does he consider there is potential for huge conflict in the region because of Turkey's proximity to Iran? Question marks are being raised by the United States about Iran's nuclear industry while Turkey is under the influence of the United States. It is possible there will be conflicts involving countries such as Syria. We do not know what will happen in Iraq in the years to come. Is there a danger the European Union will be sucked into a greater conflict after the accession process has been completed?

I made it clear I am not in the business of proposing particular lines of action, but of trying to assemble the views on either side of the argument. I do not doubt there are considerable worries about the extent of the expansion of the European Union. President Chirac has suggested there should be referenda on each accession after that of Croatia. In other words, there would be a referendum on Turkey's accession.

It is evident the Commission is trying to reassure member states by making it clear the opening of negotiations would not be an irreversible action. It has stressed a veto could be applied or that the negotiations could be suspended or stopped. The accession to the European Union of Turkey is not the inevitable outcome. The possibility of a long process of negotiation is also being offered as a counter-argument or source of solace. It should certainly be considered when assessing whether the Union is capable of absorbing another large member state.

We do not have much experience of the operation of a European Union of 25 member states because the most recent accession was completed just last May. The anecdotal evidence I have received from people working is Brussels is that it has worked remarkably well. No grave problems have arisen in respect of voting in the Council, for example. The Commission has problems, but that is another matter. We have yet to see how the enlarged Union will develop. We do not yet have any answers in that regard. One needs to see what the experience will be in the next five, ten or 15 years to see if we can do for Turkey what was done for other countries like Spain, Portugal, Greece and Ireland to allow it join, even though there might have been doubts about its capacity to function within the Union, and the changes which might be made to the Union. There are people in one school, who would very much regret enlargement to include Turkey as it would in their view dilute the Union. They make that point in answer, if one likes, to Britain's support for enlargement to include Turkey. Their argument is that Britain wants to expand the Union as it wants to dilute the Union rather than see further integration. We can only look at these questions over time.

I see dangers and positive aspects to having borders with Georgia, Armenia, Syria, Iran and Iraq. Who can tell? I do not know what the answer is. If Turkey is assumed into the European Union and the area of stability, which the Union certainly represents, is extended to Turkey and its eastern and southern borders, it should be seen as positive. With Turkey as a fully democratic state fully recognising human rights more developed that in it now, however long that might take, Europe as a whole would be stronger. From this base of strength it could better develop its relations with the neighbouring countries with which we will need to develop relations in any event, thereby protecting our interests, and we have interests in these countries. I already mentioned energy, which is the most obvious interest.

The governments must decide what they mean by "without delay". We do not know their decision on the date when negotiations will open. That matter is under discussion and we do not know what sorts of conditions will be applied to the negotiations.

I congratulate Deputy Haughey on tabling the motion. As he said, this is an extremely important debate and it makes the committee all the more relevant to have such a debate before the decision is made in December. We have heard many arguments today and will no doubt hear more before the meeting has concluded. Before December I would like to get some more historical and cultural background on the links between Turkey and Europe. One thinks of the birth of early Greek and early Turkish and Persian civilisation interacting with Europe. One thinks of Augustus leaving Rome in, I believe, the fourth or fifth century and setting up in what was then Constantinople. One thinks of the Byzantine Empire, which lasted several hundred years in Constantinople.

The Deputy surprises me. I had no idea he was such an antiquarian.

It goes on and on. If the committee wishes me to deliver a lecture, I can make myself available. Interconnectivity between Istanbul, previously Constantinople, and Europe has existed for hundreds if not thousands of years, into which we should delve to some degree. Cultural matters are key to the relationship and feed into the first major question raised in the excellent presentation by Mr. O'Rourke — what is Europe? This is a legitimate question. Some countries appear to see Europe as western Europe, and the Iron Curtain reinforced that notion for decades. Others see Europe as the countries around the Mediterranean. Does this include other countries around the Mediterranean and not just those referred to?

We also have the issue of God. Regardless of which side of the argument one is on, it was extraordinarily interesting that during the debate on drafting the new EU constitution, whether good or bad, it was decided not to insert a reference to God in the preamble. The reference is instead to a shared system of values in humanity, democracy etc. The EU has taken a decision that it is not a geographic location but a system of shared values. Therefore, the fundamental question is whether Europe and Turkey are capable of sharing a set of common values and I believe they are.

Considerable hypocrisy is spoken by some of those in France, Germany and others where the state subvents religion. England has its established official religion. As I understand it, Turkey has been a strictly secular state since 1928 or 1929. Religious schools are banned in Turkey. Its constitution clearly states it is not possible to mix the state and politics with religion. The Turkish Prime Minister, Mr. Erdogan, was either disqualified from sitting in parliament or may have been imprisoned because his party was deemed to have crossed the line between religion and politics. When his party won the last general election, Mr. Abdullah Gul became the Prime Minister and is now Foreign Minister because Mr. Erdogan had been disqualified by the Turkish Supreme Court.

An argument can be made that Turkey is a very good example of a secular state and better than many western democracies. There may be a question mark over the army, which seems to act in Turkey as the Supreme Court acts in Ireland. In contrast to Ireland where the Supreme Court enforces the Constitution, in Turkey the army seems to be the enforcer of the secular constitution, which cannot be allowed to continue.

When discussing equal partners, Deputy Andrews made an interesting point in asking whether we are condescending towards Turkey. I do not believe Turkey wants to join the EU for economic reasons but because it wants to share its identity with Europe. When President Bush offered some $19 billion to Turkey to have its army participate in the invasion of Iraq, its Parliament turned that down. That was a considerable amount of money to turn down at the stroke of a pen. I believe that belies the argument that Turkey's interest in association is primarily economic.

Other members spoke of security. Turkey is an important member of NATO in that region. I question whether Turkey would be capable of divesting itself of that identity to some degree and become more of a mainstream European country in its thinking about security. It might suffer from a split personality in the security area. If Turkey joins the EU and shares its common set of values, it will need to divest itself to a certain extent of its NATO loyalty and think more in terms of loyalty to the European Union. These are valid arguments and certainly form an important part of the issue. In regard to Turkey's wish to join, I think the Turks themselves would say it will help them to develop a democratic and secure state within the European Union. If Deputy Mulcahy had continued, he might have pointed out that Santa Claus was born in Turkey and, whatever about God, his mother lived in Ephesus.

We have a church called St. Nicholas of Myra which represents that.

My views might differ slightly from those of my colleagues. In my view, it is not an argument about human rights, the military or economics. It is an argument about the definition of the continent of Europe and whether Turkey is part of Europe. Mr. O'Rourke stated that if Turkey were admitted, the EU might also have to admit Ukraine and Belarus and such places. If one looks at a map it shows that Ukraine and Belarus are in a line down from Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia. Bulgaria, Albania and Moldova are all part of Europe whereas I do not regard Russia as being so. The part of Turkey on this side of the Bosphorus is obviously in Europe. It must be decided whether the other part of Turkey is also in Europe. The Turks will argue that most of Turkey is closer to Europe than is Cyprus and this is true. If Turkey is admitted, what happens if Lebanon and Israel apply? I am not really afraid of admitting Turkey to the EU. Turkey will not be admitted until it achieves certain defined criteria and that is for Turkey to do, whether it takes one, two, ten years or 15 years. That is its business and it will do that as quickly as it can. We must consider and decide how large to allow the European Union to become, how many more countries we wish to include and whether those that have been accepted have been fully integrated.

On the question of fear of a Muslim state, as Deputy Mulcahy stated, Turkey is a secular state and has been since the time of Kemal Ataturk. I am not afraid of a Muslim state entering the European Union. The only difference between a Christian state and a Muslim state is that the Muslims practice their religion and the Christians do not. If that is a fear for Christian states, they have an answer. They can practise their religion.

Mr. Buttiglione is a man who expressed views which he said were part of the Catholic faith. I do not think any Catholic would decide that homosexuality was a sin. Some of his views might have a resonance with certain Muslims. If he were a Muslim I wonder what would happen to him.

There should not be a fear of Turkey because it is a fine country in itself which I have visited a number of times. The people are industrious and hard-working and we in the EU can incorporate them if we wish to do so. The argument I would like to hear discussed is what the geographic definition of Europe is and where it stops. How far east or west will it go? Will Greenland be admitted?

I will take questions from Deputy Sexton and Senator McDowell at this point to speed up the process. Is that agreed, Senator Lydon?

Yes, please do.

Time is an important factor. I will endeavour to condense what I had planned to say because other speakers have covered similar points to mine. I do not see limitations to the European Union. If the Union is trying to foster freedom and democracy throughout the world, then risks must be taken. While the risks are great, the benefits are even greater. The EU is regarded more as an economic entity but I regard it as an untested peace process which ensures all members are together on issues and find ways around problems if they are not in agreement.

The timeframe is important. Turkey was promised back in the 1960s that it could hope for accession to the European Union. If its application were rejected, that might be interpreted in today's world as a rejection of any kind of integration of any country other than Christian. The EU has a role to play in breaking down the public fears and perceptions about Islam and whether it is compatible with a liberal democracy. I make that statement in the full knowledge that it is women and children who fare worst in countries such as Turkey. I concede that the country has made great strides but it is still to be tested. It must be monitored and assessed rigorously and regularly over a long period before people are comfortable with its accession.

Is there any likelihood of objections being raised in December to the beginning of the process? Mr. O'Rourke has stated that it seems likely there will be agreement by every country. Does he think some countries might have reservations? If Turkey does not wish to aspire to Europe as it is constituted, why has it moved in the direction of Europe?

Is it agreed that we group Senator Lydon's and Deputy Sexton's questions?

I do not think anyone else is offering.

Senator Quinn is offering.

I beg your pardon. My question will not take long. I wish to make a comment before I ask my question. It is inspired by what Deputy Andrews said about the issue of integration and immigration. It is unquestionably a fact that the Turkish populations in places such as Germany and Austria have not integrated. It can easily be argued that they have not been allowed or encouraged to integrate. It is certainly a fact that there are third generation Turkish immigrants in Germany who do not speak German or do not speak it very well. Either they do not wish to be integrated into German society or they have not been allowed, facilitated or encouraged to do so. In that respect, they have more in common with, for example, the north African population in France or the population which might have come from the Caribbean or Commonwealth countries to Britain than they do with other European immigrants. For example, there is no obvious French ghetto in Germany or German ghetto in Denmark.

My concern is about the capacity of the European Union to absorb Turkey. One argument consistently made is that if we do not enter into negotiations in a serious manner with a view to Turkish membership, this will inevitably undermine or bring to a halt the progress that has been made in terms of democratisation and human rights in Turkey and that it would destabilise the security of the region of the Caucasus or the Middle East. It would make it difficult for those who argue for reform and progress in Turkey to continue to do the job. There is an apocalyptic vision described that if the European Union says "No" to Turkey, everything will go into a difficult and negative tailspin in Turkey. I cannot form a view of that. Does the average Turk, as opposed to the political elite, feel so strongly about membership of the European Union that he feels the country will simply degenerate or that progress will be impossible on these issues if the rest of the Union decides it does not want to progress full membership for Turkey? If it were decided that Turkey would simply be offered some form of preferred partnership, would that seriously undermine those arguing for progress as we would define it?

I have been impressed at the ability of Turkey to embrace change since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Kemal Ataturk achieved sensational changes. In my opinion, Turkey will be able to embrace the changes required by the European Union. In the 1960s, President de Gaulle said "No" to Ireland and Britain joining the European Common Market. While the French and German Governments may be in favour of the accession of Turkey to the European Union, there have been suggestions that they feel obliged to hold a referendum. If that is so, the indications are that the peoples of France and Germany are unlikely to accept it. I am not sure how correct this is but it raises the same question asked by Senator McDowell. Is there a danger this will cause a delay or call a halt to human rights developments in Turkey?

I thank Mr. O'Rourke for his fair and balanced presentation. It was exactly what we wanted and I am grateful to him for it. My motion was deliberately provocative because I sometimes feel we are talking to ourselves here. Senator McDowell referred to the "average Turk" versus the political elite. Sometimes we are like the political elite here and the average Irish man or woman is not listening to us. We need stimulating debates and must try to engage the public on various issues, especially where they concern the European Union.

Mr. O'Rourke mentioned the United Kingdom's motives for wanting Turkey to join the European Union. It is also fair to say the United States is encouraging all concerned to allow Turkey join the Union. Why do the United Kingdom and the United States want Turkey to join?

I will try to reply to all of the questions asked and will start from the end.

I do not want to attribute motives to Britain. However, the suspicion is that it strongly supports Turkish accession because it wants to extend the European Union to dilute it. In other words, it wants to oppose the integrationists who talk about a federal Europe. Most accept that this idea is long gone. It is clear from the constitutional treaty that what we are talking about is a union of member states, not a federal Europe.

The United States has been keen on Turkish accession and went much too far in its lobbying in this regard. While I am not an expert, it has to do with the military geo-political attitude of the United States. I am not being critical in saying this. Turkey has always been a valuable ally of the United States, although the United States did not succeed in getting it to do its will in the case of Iraq.

There has never been a referendum on the accession of any member state. If there had been, perhaps Ireland and other member states would not be members. I have said the feeling on President Chirac's idea of a referendum which purely has to do with internal politics is that it is not regarded as a good one. Imagine what would happen if the negotiations were successfully concluded in 15 years time and the French people decided they were against it in a referendum. The result would be serious.

Turkey has shown great ability to embrace change, not least in the past two or three years when the changes have been substantial. It has also accepted that further change and proper implementation are required before it can join the European Union.

The question was asked as to what would happen if we said no and the process stopped. The Turkish Prime Minister recently said that if this happened, the Copenhagen criteria would become the Ankara criteria and that Turkey would continue to make the necessary changes for it to develop the way the Turkish Government wanted it to develop. That is an important indication of Turkish willingness to move towards the European system of values and democracy.

We should be practical in regard to whether Turkey is a European country. This is most unlikely to be an issue for any of the governments which accept the point has been conceded. They have repeatedly made statements in the past 40 years, in particular in the past ten, in which they make it clear they accept Turkey is eligible in that respect. On the other hand, we refused Morocco which clearly is not a European country. That is one limit. We will not move south of the Mediterranean to Africa.

Another practical point is that if we were to expand membership to non-European countries, we would have to seek to change the constitution. Successive treaties and the draft constitution clearly state only European countries are eligible. It is most unlikely an effort to change this would succeed.

There is the question of the identity of the European Union and whether it can expand indefinitely. We must consider what will happen, whether the Union can maintain cohesion and whether indefinite expansion, beyond Turkey to the Ukraine, would lead to divisions within it. Would it lead to new formations or new core units which are discussed frequently? Some fear this would be damaging and disastrous for the cohesion of the Union. There is, therefore, great hesitancy about further expansion. My personal view is that it is most unlikely we will face further expansion in the next couple of decades.

On whether there is any likelihood of objections in December, this has not been excluded. Certain things must happen before then. Some member states are opposed. Austria is most opposed to Turkish membership in terms of public and party opinion but there is no expectation the Austrian Government will impose a veto. However, something must and is expected to happen in regard to Cyprus. The Turkish Government is expected to produce a form of words or changes which will mitigate sufficiently the difficulties in this area to allow Cyprus to go along with what will be proposed by the Presidency. This is the major item on the agenda of the Dutch Presidency which is anxious to achieve success. It is a difficult issue. The Dutch do not regard it as a walkover and there is work to be done.

We will finish as we have run over time. I thank Mr. O'Rourke for his very informative presentation. I am sure members share that view.

The joint committee has received a letter from Mr. Hans Zomer, director of Dóchas, enclosing a report entitled External Relations and Human Security in an Enlarged EU. I propose that we note this correspondence.

We also have a letter from Deputy Ó Snodaigh regarding the committee's visit to Turkey. I will circulate this letter to members for discussion at our next meeting. I will also forward a copy to the Irish Embassy in Turkey. Deputy Ó Snodaigh expresses strong opinions about our visit to Turkey.

Will we have an opportunity to discuss the letter before we go to Turkey?

We will. In fairness to Deputy Ó Snodaigh, we will distribute copies of the letter and it will be discussed under correspondence at the next meeting. If anyone, including Deputy Ó Snodaigh, wishes to raise issues regarding the contents of the letter, he or she may do so at next week's meeting.

The Latvian Embassy has asked to meet the committee, perhaps on 29 or 30 November next. We do not know what it wishes to discuss. We will discuss that matter at next week's meeting.

The next meeting will take place on Wednesday, 10 November at 2 p.m. Is that agreed? Agreed. We will meet the Turkish ambassador on that date.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.55 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 10 November 2004.

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