I welcome members of the delegation from the Republic of Latvia to the Joint Committee on European Affairs. We look forward to their presentation, following which some members may ask questions. It will be a free-flowing and open discussion and if members of the delegation wish to raise any issues regarding Latvian citizens who are resident or non-resident here they are welcome to do so.
Visit of Delegation from the Republic of Latvia.
Ms Ina Druviete
Honourable Chairman and distinguished members of the committee, we are delighted and grateful for the possibility to strengthen Latvian-Irish parliamentary co-operation. We appreciate this opportunity to be here to speak about issues of common interest for Latvia and Ireland and we hope this first visit will be only the beginning for our closer co-operation. We are representative of four political parties of the seven represented in the parliament of Latvia. Our delegation represents a wide range of the political spectrum of Latvia. We represent two parliamentary committees out of nine legislation committees at our parliament. These are the Committee of Human Rights and Public Affairs and the Committee of Citizenship Law Implementation, whose head, Ms Anta Rugate, is sitting next to me. Some members of our delegation are members of both committees. Mr. Janis Esta of the People's Party is a member of both committees, as are Ms Inara Ostrovska and Mr.Vladimirs Buzajevs. Mr. Karlis Strelis is a member of the Human Rights Committee, while Mr. Aleksandrs Golubovs and Ms AusmaZiedone-Kantane are both members of the Citizenship Law Implementation Committee.
Latvia has been a member state of the European Union since 1 May. This means that our co-operation with Ireland has become increasingly close. Our goal is to strengthen parliamentary ties too. We have a special parliamentary group for Latvian-Irish co-operation, of which I and some others on our delegation are members. We are interested in political, cultural and economic co-operation.
The duties of our committee are quite wide. We are responsible for human rights legislation in the Republic of Latvia. A very important aspect of our current activities is the adoption of anti-discrimination law. We are working very actively to implement directives of the European Union and next year we will treat this legislation very seriously. The second law is that relating to the office of Ombudsman. We have a human rights office in Latvia with which we co-operate very closely, but our President has submitted a special law relating to the office of Ombudsman and our committee will be responsible for its adoption. On public affairs, our committee is responsible for radio and television, and for penitentiary establishments. Next year we will work on new radio and television legislation. We could benefit from the experience of other countries. We are here in Ireland to tell of our experience and learn from yours and to strengthen contacts between inhabitants.
We all know that Ireland is a dream country for many Latvians. We learnt today that there are approximately 5,000 Latvians working in Ireland and this number will increase. In order to achieve successful co-operation, our parliament is ready to make its contribution to this issue. Latvia has cultural ties with Ireland too. We remember our common Indo-European ancestry. Latvians are very interested in the Celtic heritage. We believe co-operation between our two small countries would be very successful. I hope within the European Union, Latvia and Ireland will co-operate very closely and that our visit will be a tiny contribution towards this.
I come from a small town in the south of Ireland. You have noted that many young people come here from the Baltic States, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia. Are you aware of any difficulties among Latvian people in Ireland since the accession?
Ms Druviete
We are very concerned about these issues and we are very pleased to hear that your immigration and trade departments have no problems with Latvians working in Ireland. Our common goal is to reduce the incidence of illegal immigration to Ireland and to harmonise the system of social security among our countries.
Mr. Karlis Strelis
We had a discussion with representatives of Latvians working here. There were two people who had been working in Ireland for five or six years and it was our understanding that the situation is pretty good and they were satisfied with employment opportunities and conditions here.
Mr. Aleksandrs Golubovs
Since your committee deals with European matters I wish to point out that there is another category of residents in Latvia, namely non-citizens of Latvia who at this point need a permit to work in Ireland. Is the committee aware that there is such a group of residents in Latvia?
Are you speaking of 30% of the population who are Russians?
Mr. Golubovs
That is the approximate number, but it includes not only people of Russian origin. There are other ethnic groups and many of these people were born in Latvia.
This is probably not a matter within our remit. The chairperson of your delegation alluded to this matter in her presentation. Those issues will have to be resolved internally. We cannot have any say in the sovereignty of another member state.
Mr. Vladimirs Buzajevs
The non-citizen issue is a minority problem. Half of the minorities residing in Latvia have been denied their political rights and have not been represented in parliament. The Government has failed to implement recommendations regarding the norms for minorities and education issues.
Ms Anta Rugate
I would like to point out a few facts and important details of Latvian history. Latvia regained independence in 1991. In 1994 a citizenship law was adopted which envisaged that people born in Latvia would be entitled to citizenship through naturalisation. There were some restrictions whereby not all of the approximately one million people who were artificially brought into the country would gain Latvian citizenship. People who migrated to Latvia during the Soviet occupation have been given the right to apply for Latvian citizenship through naturalisation. There are some exceptions if these people co-operated with groups not loyal to the Latvian state and the government. In 1991 there were amendments to the citizenship law. We had a referendum in which the Latvian people voted to give the right of citizenship to people born in Latvia after 1991.
Education is guaranteed in Latvia in eight minority languages and the state sponsors this education. ‘Minority' is a term which cannot be fully applied in the Latvian case. The minority is not united and we would interpret this term slightly differently because of historical experience. It is of course the responsibility of the Latvian government to implement policy in respect of citizenship. Latvia fully implements all the recommendations of the European and world bodies. With regard to minority issues, Latvia fully adheres to European standards and norms. Differences of opinion are testament to the fact that there is democracy in Latvia.
Is it true under the new education law in Latvia that since 1 September the predominant language has to be Latvian in those schools which were Russian?
Ms Druviete
I will give a very short version of current affairs. Before independence the Latvian language skills among the Russian-speaking population, including Belorussians and Ukrainians, were quite low. Only about 20% of adults knew Latvian and it was not mandatory in schools. Russian was the language of education. Almost all Latvians were bilingual and Russian functioned as almost a third working language in government and municipal establishments. In 1988, before independence, the state language status of Latvian was restored. The duty of the Latvian state was to introduce Latvian, not only to governmental institutions but also to the education system.
By 1999 schools had an obligation to teach Latvian. In 1992 the first ideas about bilingual education came into being and in 1995 two subjects in primary schools and three subjects in secondary schools had to be taught in Latvian. In 1999 the Ministry of Education introduced models of bilingual education in primary schools, but schools were free to choose their own model. It was not a reform. It was a programme on how to implement Latvian in the life of society through the education system. Bilingual education is and will continue to be the practice in primary schools.
As the committee has been informed, we have primary education in eight languages and the system is functioning successfully. Since 1 September this year, bilingual education has been introduced in secondary schools too. Contrary to the system in the States, Canada or other countries, in Latvia the minority language is the basic language of education and the state language is added. At primary level the minority language is the main means of education and it will remain so. In secondary schools 40% of all subjects are taught in minority languages and 60% in Latvian. This is necessary because state-financed higher education functions in Latvian. We have private higher educational establishments with no language restrictions. In order to gain a post, one must know Latvian at a very high level.
These changes in the state education system were made in order to make Latvian the de facto state language. The system is functioning successfully. It is the only means to ensure the integration of Latvian society against the background of the Latvian language. It is not true that education in other languages will be eliminated. Latvia is perhaps the only country where it is possible to get state-financed secondary education in several minority languages.
I welcome the delegation. I am Ruairí Quinn, a member of the Party of European Socialists and its local component, the Irish Labour Party. You clearly have had a very difficult history and you are still living through the immediate effects of that. I express my solidarity with you and hope that all of you collectively come through it successfully.
The politics of language is not peculiar to Latvia. You could look at France and Spain. In Ireland, after independence in 1922, some people could not get jobs unless they spoke a language which they had never spoken. Other people had been denied access. We understand the complexities of language. I suggest that you look at our experience. There may be some possibilities not to make the mistakes we have made.
I refer now to labour law, the Latvians who are here and the many more who will come. They will come for two reasons — because we need them and because they need to avail of the opportunities here. Most of our employers are good, decent people who respect the law, but a minority, as in all countries, are not necessarily up to that standard. That is why we have a labour inspectorate.
I will relate one experience and make one recommendation. The first is our experience of being an emigrant nation, when our people went to many different parts of the world, particularly the United Kingdom. The natural tendency was to mix with your own people. The natural belief was that your own people would not do damage to you. That was not always the experience. If I were a member of the Latvian parliament and some of my constitutents were thinking of emigrating to work for a short time or for a long time in Ireland, I would recommend to them that they should join a trade union here. The trade union has the greater reach, greater solidarity than the 150 industrial inspectors who cannot get to the places of work where many of your constituents or citizens would be. It is to be expected, given the history of state-controlled trade unions in Latvia during the Soviet period, that there is a natural suspicion of joining trade unions, but our trade unions, particularly our general union, SIPTU, are partners with Government and are independent and respected.
What preparation do Latvian workers have before they come to Ireland? I say this in the context of the best-selling novel which has been translated into Latvian, The Mushroom Experience. It suggests that the experience of Latvians here has been very poor. I would agree with Deputy Quinn that there is a very large number of compliant employers, but there are also those who will not comply. There are not enough inspectors in the Department. Latvian people should be prepared before they come to Ireland. Perhaps the trade union movement is the only way forward for them. I have had experience of a number of employers who have taken advantage of Latvian workers and I have reported the matter. It was resolved but there are probably many such incidences across the country. What kind of feedback have you received? How many workers are there in Ireland, legally or illegally?
Mr. Janis Esta
We met some Latvians yesterday and we got positive feedback about their experience. Of course there are some sad stories and negative accounts of life in Ireland. Yesterday we met some Latvians who had set up their own businesses here. According to our information, the experience is mainly positive.
Mr. Strelis
We had a meeting this morning in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and according to the data given by the Minister there are 4,500 registered Latvians, those who have PPS numbers. There are probably several thousand more who do not have those PPS numbers.
I welcome the delegation. I have been listening very intently to the submissions. The delegation spoke of the minorities within Latvia. Russians comprise about 29% of the population. It strikes me that there is ongoing strain between the Russian minority and the Latvian government. I would ask for your comments on the anti-discrimination law in the light of fact that the Russian minority is under pressure from you.
Ms Druviete
We have some written information about these issues which we will submit to you afterwards. I will make some comments about the term ‘minority'. Latvia's situation is very special. Before the war approximately 9% of the population were Russians descended from those who had resided there since the 16th and 17th centuries. They are all citizens of Latvia. After the Second World War there was a huge influx. There is no other region in Europe which has experienced such ethno-demographic changes and we have to cope with it.
Our goal is to build an integrated society. We have our state programme of integration and it includes respect for any language and culture, with a very strong background of the Latvian language as the basis of our integration. This integration process is proceeding quite successfully. Let us not forget that it is only 14 years since our independence and it is impossible to cope with the Soviet heritage within such a short period. On the question of tension, there are always some people who have a different point of view but in general there is no hostility between Latvian and Russian communities. There are no so-called ‘street and tram' conflicts.
The protests against the so-called reform of education — it is not a reform but simply consequent policy for making our young people bilingual — are artificially induced. We represent several political factions. We do not necessarily share views. The education provisions are beneficial for study and work prospects. Latvia is supporting minority cultures and languages to a very great extent. Show me another European country where secondary education can be provided in a minority language for almost half. It is our strong conviction that these protests are only temporary and are politically motivated. People understand that the state is doing its best to ensure minority rights.
Mr. Buzajevs
According to my data, only about 10% of students and their parents support the current bilingual education policy. The largest protest meeting was held on 1 May when Latvia joined the EU and about 65,000 people participated. Many people who do not support current policy were born in Latvia but not all of them have been able to get Latvian citizenship.
Mr. Strelis
Since 1998 the Latvian government has spent about $20 million on Latvian language training courses for Russians. I do not know how much Ireland spends on Irish language courses but $20 million is a significant amount of money for the Latvian government. One could argue that Latvians who could have used this money for their own purposes have been deprived of this possibility. We should perhaps change the topic of discussion because this could continue indefinitely.
I welcome the delegation. We have been an independent nation in this part of Ireland for 80 years. On the island of Ireland, we have had difficulties with minorities and with language to which we have not easily found a solution. We sympathise with your efforts.
I notice that Latvia is one of the countries which has not yet signed the European Convention on the Protection of Minorities. Latvia could hold its head high if that were to be signed in the near future. Perhaps you could give me some idea about that.
Ms Druviete
Latvia has signed this convention. We have not ratified it for the reasons previously explained. It is impossible to define the notion of ‘minority'. We have some uncertainty about the positive aspects because in Latvia the so-called phenomenon of Russian language self-sufficiency exists. Our legislation is so liberal that a person can survive without speaking Latvian. Does it mean that Latvians should become bilingual? We are. There is no country where minorities can fully experience linguistic human rights at the expense of the majority.
Latvia differs from Ireland in that the mother tongue retention rates are very high. That was also the case during the Soviet period. Latvian is the main element of our identity. It is our specific characteristic and therefore we are language centred. It is our mentality, our history. We must ensure the integration of society first and only then ratify this convention, when we are absolutely sure that it would not prevent that process.
I am an employer and our experience of Latvian employees has been very good. That is a view that I hear around Ireland. I am delighted to know that a number of Latvian businesses have been created here.
We have not had a resident ambassador since July. Is it the intention to have a Latvian ambassador in Ireland in the near future?
Mr. Ivor Lassis
On behalf of the embassy of Latvia, I can say that a new ambassador to Ireland has been approved. The Irish side has agreed and we expect the ambassador to arrive here in early February.
My experience of the Latvians here is that they are very good workers. There are quite a few of them in Cavan. I thought at first they were Russians because they were all Russian speaking, but they told me they were Latvians and were very happy to be here.
During the Soviet occupation of your country, many Latvians were deported to Siberia. How many were involved and did many of them survive? Regarding the Russians who came to live in Latvia because of the military bases, did they take the land from Latvians? Are they accepted as Latvians now? What is the story? Is it a bit like the Turks in Cyprus? Do you expect these people to go back to Russia or to stay in Latvia and become Russian-Latvian citizens?
Ms Druviete
The deportation of our people was a great tragedy for a small nation. Of 1.5 million inhabitants, almost 200,000 were sent to Siberia between 1941 and 1949. Approximately half came back. Every family suffered from that process. Many people were not allowed to reside in Latvia after their exile. They resided in Lithuania and many of them stayed in Russia.
Mr. Esta
Latvia had an agreement with Russia regarding the pull out of the Russian troops from the military bases. This encompassed the equipment and military material. Everything was removed from Latvian territory, unlike several countries, Georgia for instance. There was a financial clause in the agreement whereby all the Russian officers and their families returned to Russia.
Ms Rugate
The Latvian state did everything possible in a very decent manner to settle those issues of sending military officers back to Russia. These officers even received a social allowance because they had to relocate their households. Many relatives of these officers and military personnel stayed in Latvia. It is these very often these people who are opposed to the education policy. They are also against an independent Latvian state. The government does everything possible to reconcile those two sides.
People probably have a very short memory about what happened in those very tragic years. We do everything possible not to forget the burden of history. We really hope that European countries will be able to understand the processes going on in Latvia and understand that occupation was enforced in the country. We want to deal with the situation in a very humane manner.
Mr. Golubovs
It is important to point out that it is not the military personnel or their descendants who are against the education policy in Latvia. It is mostly Latvian citizens and non-citizens who are protesting against the implementation of this policy.
Ms Inara Ostrovska
The economic situation in Latvia is not excellent and of course the Irish State is helping Latvians in a way. I come from a region in Latvia where only about 10% or 15% of inhabitants are Latvian. I know the situation very well. Relations between Latvians and other ethnic groups are excellent. People are very friendly. There are some old-style Soviet forces who are trying to turn the clock back, but we hope that will not be possible.
Ms Ausma Ziedone-Kantane
The education issue is very political. When Latvian independence was achieved in the early 1990s, automatic Latvian citizenship was promised to everyone residing in the country at that time. If that had not been the case, we probably would not be experiencing such difficulty on these matters.
I extend a very warm welcome to the delegation. Visits such as this are very important for both sides. As a new member of the EU, we wish you well. Many delegations and Ministers have visited Latvia in the past 18 months and a dialogue has developed. During our EU Presidency the Taoiseach had much contact with Latvia and we hope all that is helpful to you in integrating to the EU. There are tremendous opportunities but there are also responsibilities and obligations with which we all have to comply.
I concur with the points made about the Latvian population here. Almost 3,700 have registered with the Department of Social and Family Affairs for PPS purposes. That is an indication of the increase in the number of Latvians in Ireland. It is very important to give your people every support and assistance before they come here. Going to a foreign country is very difficult. We know from our history that going abroad can be very lonely. The structures here can only do so much. I strongly urge that a link should be established with the local services to help people when they come to Ireland. We recognise the positive contribution they are making, as indicated by Senator Quinn.
I thank the delegation for coming to the committee. This is an ongoing process that started fairly recently. Over the next five or ten years we will have a better idea of how Latvian workers integrate into our society. So far the experience has been good for the thousands of Latvians who have moved to Ireland.
Regarding what was said by Ms Rugate, some of our members were trying to identify similarities between our experiences of language difficulties. I think Ms Rugate is saying that we could not have any comprehension of what Latvia has gone through during the past 30 or 40 years. It is a fair point. Your recent history has been very turbulent and violent. I understand that you are taking steps in good faith. Good luck with this difficult job. I wish you all the best and thank you again for coming to the committee.
Sitting suspended at 3.45 p.m. and resumed at 3.47 p.m.